Latest / Linen Suit & Plastic Tie / What Wishes Do Games Fulfill? ft. Executive Producer @ Marvel Games (Eric Monacelli)

Transcript

What Wishes Do Games Fulfill? ft. Executive Producer @ Marvel Games (Eric Monacelli) · Linen Suit & Plastic Tie

0:05
Chow Chow, welcome. Welcome to the Linen Suit and
0:09
Plastic Tie Podcast. This is the podcast where we
0:12
dissect and analyze the epic, the amazing, the cool, the
0:15
impossible, the awesome, the not actually impossible power of
0:20
story time and learn how to harness that power in our
0:23
everyday life. That word was lives by the way,
0:29
just in case I'm Gov. And I'm Kevin.
0:34
Kevin, before you start, and I know I told you in the intro,
0:38
I'm do this real quick. One thing, one thing I'm
0:41
noticing, but one, I'm back in my LA apartment, lots of stuff
0:44
happening again. We're going to get into it in a
0:46
later episode. But one thing I'm noticing is
0:48
because because I've been moving around a lot, we've been doing
0:50
the intros and the main episodes kind of disjointedly.
0:53
So the best part of me is when I watch them back, now that we're
0:56
using YouTube, we're noticing stuff like you give me shit all
0:59
the time because you know, I'm a hand movement guy.
1:01
So that comes on camera. Everything we're doing is coming
1:04
on camera. But one thing that's really
1:05
noticeable is how my beard changes depending on when we
1:10
film. So like I haven't shaved since
1:13
before we filmed this episode but you'll see the beard looks
1:16
different just in a little bit of time.
1:17
But in our last episode we had recorded the intro a couple
1:21
weeks after the main episode and it goes from LON beard to clean
1:26
shaven. Yeah, I mean, we're literally
1:28
going from no visual of anything to having to watch every little
1:33
movement on it. And that is a really interesting
1:36
point brought up actually, because another thing I noticed
1:39
from the editing side of things is for both of us, what we start
1:43
to do when we're not talking. And when it's in audio, if
1:48
you're not talking, you just don't show up in the episode.
1:51
But when you have video, that's a little different because the
1:56
camera is still on you. You're being recorded every
1:58
single second, and for us who are not completely used to it
2:04
right now, it's really interesting to start picking up
2:07
like moments of disengagement almost.
2:12
Yeah, you probably laugh because I just did it.
2:14
It's so weird because I am a fidgety person.
2:17
It's one of the biggest reasons I take notes in classes I'm in
2:21
at school. Not because I'm going to go read
2:22
them later, God no. Because like, it keeps me
2:25
engaged. That's why I take notes at work,
2:27
right? But that was the other thing
2:28
though, because we both got into the habit of taking notes as we
2:32
were talking to our guests. But when it shows up on camera,
2:36
it's the moment we stop talking, the moment we finish a question,
2:41
we immediately look down on the camera.
2:44
But the audience can't see what we're actually doing.
2:47
So it just looks like we got immediately disengaged.
2:50
So this is for the record, that we are both actually taking
2:54
those into actively listening when you saw us disengaged.
3:00
But another thing that was really interesting, Gaurav, is
3:04
recently we got you exploring a new format of storytelling.
3:10
You're starting to try this new video game that we are the two
3:13
of us are playing together called Split Fiction.
3:17
So just a little context is Kevin's a pretty big gamer and
3:20
I'm not, so I'm like exploring this with him almost like the
3:23
first time besides little games I've played in the past and
3:27
Duolingo. Yeah, and we'll get into that
3:32
probably in a little episode as well.
3:33
But what's interesting from US playing this dual player video
3:39
game together though, is that for the same exact content, we
3:43
get both the player and the non conventional player points of
3:47
view. And something I noticed you
3:50
doing though, that was really interesting is the moment we get
3:55
out of the like interactive playing segment of the game and
3:59
gets into the cutscenes where there's just dialogues and kind
4:05
of scripted play almost. You would actually drop the
4:09
controller and start scrolling through your phone.
4:12
I don't know if you'd notice yourself doing that.
4:15
I really was trying. I've really tried not to and
4:18
like I I was, I was worried that's where you were going and
4:21
I was like, no, he's not because I thought I was being pretty
4:23
good at not he was moments. I mean, oh, we've been playing a
4:26
while. I haven't like not having
4:27
checked my phone. I'm I'm going to do this
4:29
justification mode. I can see myself being like,
4:31
listen, let me prove to you why I use my key.
4:34
Yeah, but but that's that is not the point.
4:37
I'm the what I'm trying to raise here, though, is part of your
4:41
experience understanding this new storytelling format is that
4:47
in your brain, you probably recognize that the moment the
4:51
interactive segment stops is the moment you need to stop.
4:55
You can stop engaging, whereas that that is not the entire
5:00
video gaming experience. The story actually is is still
5:03
continuing in a good games, the interactive and the cutscene
5:07
segments actually seamlessly flow in and out of each other
5:13
where even if it stopped pressing the button doesn't,
5:16
that doesn't mean you stop experiencing the story.
5:19
Whereas for me, I'm more used to this format now.
5:22
I know to stay engaged, but it's really interesting for me to
5:26
watch you try to get used to this new format and it's kind of
5:31
a quirk almost from what you typically the type of stories
5:36
that you typically consume. Yeah, when I watch a movie at
5:39
home, I really try not to use my phone, but I struggle with it
5:41
sometimes not to be fully engaged because, you know, we're
5:44
so used to having that ability or my anxiety a lot of times
5:48
pulls me to my phone to check things.
5:50
But you're right, in the cutscenes, that's a moment where
5:52
you know, you don't have to be engaged.
5:54
You can pay attention, understand, while doing other
5:56
things. So it's the same, right.
5:57
OK, break, put down the controller, pick up my phone.
6:01
And that's where you see, oh, This is why gaming's so
6:04
interesting, because they can combat the second screen
6:07
problem. Yeah.
6:09
And to help us understand this unique storytelling medium
6:14
better, this week we are talking to a storyteller who is so
6:20
acknowledged in this medium. Eric Monicelli is the expert
6:26
storyteller for today's episode. If you know anything about video
6:30
games, Eric's profiles should be extremely fascinating to you
6:36
because he started off working at 2K, working on some of the
6:41
MLB games and their marketing. And then he went around some
6:47
pretty well known video game studios such as Naughty Dogs,
6:50
which is where The Last of Us in Uncharted came from.
6:53
Infinity War, he worked on Call of Duty, Capcom, and most
6:57
recently he is executive producer at Marvel Games.
7:02
So if you've heard about Spider Man games on PlayStation, Black
7:07
Panther, and the most recent hit game Marvel's Rivals, that all
7:12
falls under the umbrella of Marvel games that Eric and his
7:17
team help work on at market. So this is fascinating
7:22
conversation to understand all the insurance and outs about
7:26
designing and marketing video games and interesting career and
7:31
life journey in itself. So let's get into it.
7:36
Hello, how do you do? Sit down, gather round.
7:42
We've got stories about stories that'll make you a drink of
7:47
wonder. Amnesty because life can be.
7:50
Dried at a dress for the time with the Lin min suit and fly
7:56
stick tie Lin min suit and fly stick light Now here's Gore
8:05
Riven, Gavin. Eric, to start us off, can you
8:09
tell us a little bit about yourself?
8:12
Was this your story? Yeah, so man, this goes, my
8:17
story is pretty long, but I grew up in a very small rural town
8:21
called Sheridan, NY. So it was about man 2000 people
8:26
total. I had a, a father who was super,
8:29
super into computers, entertainment and, and Atari and
8:32
all this stuff. And so that sort of peaked my
8:34
curiosity and, and gave me this love and respect for just code,
8:41
I guess, and, and video games. And then as I got older, I got
8:44
really, really into music and arts and fashion and sports.
8:49
And I think the intersection of all those really informed my
8:53
love of entertainment and my love of proving that video games
8:57
are an art form, which is the driving function of my entire
8:59
career. Amazing.
9:02
We're very similar in the sense that we explore story time as an
9:06
art form and understand the different formats and different
9:08
variations. We've had a couple video game
9:10
people on the show. We've had a lot of comic book
9:12
people because I'm a big comic book nerd.
9:14
I have been my entire life, and they're just such interesting
9:17
forms of story time. So I love people who understand
9:20
that, but we also know that you weren't always planning on
9:24
getting into video games, right? You went to Colombia.
9:27
I think you're pretty mad. I want to get this right.
9:29
Primary psychiatry on PMS this for this.
9:34
Yes, yes. Something disorder.
9:37
Tell us about that. Oh.
9:38
Man, so I originally, I mean rewinding it way back, music was
9:44
the driving force of everything I did.
9:46
I didn't go to college right away.
9:48
I went to SUNY Fredonia, which actually is a pretty well known
9:51
SUNY school for music. And so I was going just for
9:55
English. I would like to write and that
9:56
sort of thing. All the people told me I was a
9:58
good writer. I was like, sure, whatever, that
10:01
sort of thing. It really didn't interest me.
10:03
But after my music career really didn't pan out, I really needed
10:06
to branch out from the small town that I was in.
10:10
And so I transferred into NYU. I ended up getting an honors BA.
10:15
When I graduated with my BA in literature, I was like, what am
10:18
I going to do with my life? I could teach.
10:20
My mom was a teacher. I love teaching.
10:22
Taught middle school for a year. I actually was working with the
10:26
student who had a lot of developmental issues and he he
10:31
piqued my curiosity in psychiatry.
10:33
Then I applied to Columbia. The program I was in wasn't a
10:36
good fit for who I was and I dropped out of Columbia.
10:39
But the one thing I did do to get into Columbia is the a woman
10:43
I was living with while I was teaching middle school.
10:45
Her husband was a professor and he wrote on primary psychiatry
10:49
about dysphoric disorder. And I was a good writer at the
10:53
time. So I made it pretty and I
10:55
published it in this journal and he gave me a second author
10:57
credit on it. And so that's how I got that
10:59
published. You know, I dropped out after a
11:01
while. And then I was like, what am I
11:03
going to do? And I was applying to this is to
11:06
work. But the woman I was interviewing
11:09
with told me, hey, I hear you talking a lot about how you love
11:14
video games. I don't think I'm going to hire
11:17
you for this job. Wow.
11:21
But I have this friend who's friends with like Kadeo Kojima,
11:27
and it's from Japan, and she runs this company called New
11:31
York Tokyo. I think you should talk to her.
11:33
And so that was my very first job in gaming.
11:37
It was how I got started. It was a very happenstance,
11:40
fortunate series of events, speaking loudly about my
11:43
passions to the right person at the right time.
11:46
And that's that's sort of where it all started.
11:49
We love a good pivot on the show, right?
11:51
This is a big thing where we ask what's your story?
11:53
And a lot of people say, well, my story is more windy than
11:56
most. Everyone will say this and it's
11:58
funny 'cause there's no straight line, right?
12:00
We love a good pivot because it's someone who said, you know
12:03
what? This isn't working even though
12:04
I've been thinking about it for X years.
12:07
I'm going to try something else. Yeah, definitely not a straight
12:09
line. Like there's no, there's nothing
12:10
in life that's worth it that will ever be a straight A to B,
12:14
right? I learned that the hard way.
12:16
I probably made a little too many pivots, like music to
12:19
teaching to psychiatry to video games.
12:23
But you know, it got me where I am and I'm unfortunate for all
12:25
the learning. You know, so I am curious about
12:27
that too, because if a little bit of music and a little bit of
12:30
psychiatry, a little bit of art, a little bit of literature, how
12:35
do these elements help you forward your path?
12:38
They are the wrapper and the framework for how I think about
12:42
the work I do in gaming. And ultimately what I think
12:46
about gaming is we're in the business of building virtual
12:49
worlds. No matter what aspect you are
12:51
in, if you're a designer, if you're a publisher, if you're a
12:55
product manager, producer, artist, coder, you're basically
13:00
living in this virtual world that's modeled oftentimes upon
13:04
the real world. And I also think of games as
13:06
these digital artifacts that are created.
13:09
And when you're creating these digital artifacts, you got to be
13:12
very thoughtful around what kind of curation you put into what
13:16
kind of he put into the game in this little virtual world you're
13:20
building. So while I was at NYUI, actually
13:23
was a museum studies research assistant.
13:26
So museology is a fancy word for it.
13:29
And I noticed that there's this intersection between museum
13:33
curation and how you want a player experience to work.
13:36
For me, the best sort of player contentment for video games is
13:40
this sort of very, very itative wheel of like creating the the
13:46
perfect exhibit space for people to play in that can be viewed
13:50
and revisited and make some curious and interested.
13:53
So that's one example, literature, psychiatry, pretty
13:57
straightforward. It's like play is a
13:59
psychological state and understanding how people like to
14:03
play, you need to understand psychology.
14:05
Fashion, I look to a lot that's for like character design.
14:09
So I, I love it. I take all aspects of life and
14:12
it all fundamentally. I know that sounds very
14:14
discursive, but it really gets back to the fact that we're
14:16
making these virtual worlds based on the real world.
14:19
And when you do that, you have to take all elements of the real
14:23
world in and see what fits in this little virtual world that
14:27
you're creating and curating as a digital artifact.
14:31
I really love this idea you brought up about building the
14:34
virtual world that is essential to what video games do.
14:39
On that point though, I think there are obviously a lot of
14:42
different storytelling formats that kind of do the same effect
14:46
effect, especially in a fictional sense, especially in
14:49
what you do right now between Marvel games.
14:52
You have all these IPS that are coming from other storytelling
14:55
mediums. They originally started from
14:58
comic books. And of course there's the
14:59
cinematic universe and those are fictional story worlds that have
15:04
attracted a huge and loyal fan base overtime.
15:08
But with your understanding in the video game industry though,
15:12
how do you think storytelling in video game is unique compared to
15:16
these other mediums in terms of building a virtual world and
15:19
telling a compelling story? Yeah, I mean, video games have
15:23
always had the benefit of they fully immerse the player in a
15:27
very active way. It's not passive participation.
15:30
With movies, even books, you sort of sit back, you sit back,
15:34
you're you're engaging in a very passive way.
15:37
Video games are sort of a lean forward entertainment, right?
15:40
It forces the player to engage. It forces the player to have
15:43
their own sense of control and agency and, you know, trigger
15:49
those reward centers and those responses that you want.
15:52
It's a feedback thing. So like, you know, personally
15:54
for me, I play a lot of baseball games, as you probably noticed
15:58
by the hat I'm wearing and the Jackie Robinson painting behind
16:00
me and the Pawnee glove over there.
16:02
I love baseball and I wished I became a baseball player.
16:05
That was my that was my my number one goal.
16:08
I wanted to be a shortstopper pitcher for the New York Mets.
16:10
Did that happen? Absolutely not.
16:12
But you know, I think that's something video games can do.
16:14
They have their sense of wish fulfillment.
16:17
I might not be able to do this in the real world, but I can do
16:19
it in this game and feel super strong or powerful or proud or
16:22
or mighty or or even sad. Different emotions.
16:25
Like one of my favorite games in the past few years is Grease,
16:28
and that game is exceptionally sad, but it just helps the
16:33
processing loneliness and emotions.
16:35
And so I think games have this power to do that that no other
16:39
medium has in a very, very active way.
16:42
Totally, I've played through both Spider Man and Spider Man 2
16:46
myself and PS5 and absolutely it just feels different when you
16:51
actively get to control Peter Parker.
16:54
Morale is swinging around New York City.
16:58
I'd also love to know how would you describe your current role
17:03
as executive producer in video games?
17:06
What exactly does an executive producer do in your capacity?
17:12
I had a longer title which was senior director of product and
17:15
franchise development, which I think was a very good descriptor
17:19
of what I do. I think of games as a product
17:22
and also as franchises, and I try and develop them.
17:26
That's very simplistic, but also I have this personal thing that
17:30
video games are two things. They're a game and they're a
17:33
product. The product is the thing you're
17:35
selling, and you want people to buy the unique selling points,
17:38
the consumer promise. And then the game is the craft
17:41
and the artistry and the work that all the developers put into
17:44
it. And part of my job being an IP
17:47
holder and working on license game is I work with both sides
17:51
to make sure everybody's happy and all the things are working
17:53
in concert. This is what the developers are
17:55
going to care about from the art and craft side.
17:58
This is what the publishers are going to care about from the
18:00
business of selling the game. How do we make it sing?
18:03
So an audio, it resonates with an audience in a psychologically
18:07
meaningful way. And that's kind of the middle I
18:09
feel and what I've been doing at my job.
18:11
So that's the highfalutin philosophical way of what I do.
18:15
What I do day-to-day is I'm on a lot of emails, I read a lot of
18:18
scripts, I play some builds, I talk to a lot of people.
18:20
I am therapist for a lot of creatives and that's pretty much
18:24
it, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's, it's it's
18:27
amazing. It's an interesting role because
18:29
you write, you're balancing a lot of things.
18:30
And also the game industry is in a really interesting place in
18:34
the media landscape because one, not enough people know how big
18:37
the gaming industry is. And then two, well, a lot of the
18:40
rest of the media is struggling with this second screen issue
18:43
where people aren't engaging as much in like television movies
18:46
because they're on their phones. That's harder to do in the
18:49
gaming industry, right? The whole point is to fully
18:51
immerse someone. So I think it's such an
18:54
interesting time to be working on like major IPS and in this
18:58
industry where storytelling is really exploding and you've
19:01
worked on major IPS like The Last of Us, Capcom, Marvel, Call
19:05
of Duty. How do you go about
19:07
understanding these worlds as you do it?
19:09
How do you go about understanding the different
19:10
mediums? I think every game I've
19:13
approached in a different psychological aspect, and it all
19:16
gets back to the matter of like, hey, what wish is this game
19:20
fulfilling for the player? Some of them are very simple,
19:23
like Call of Duty. You get to feel like a soldier.
19:25
Cool. What does that mean?
19:26
How do you sell that? How do you make it unique and
19:29
new? You know, if you take Spider
19:30
Man, for instance, it's like swinging through Marvel's New
19:33
York. That is the fantasy.
19:34
You want to swing, you want to shoot, you want to crawl, web,
19:38
zip, do all these things that are that make you feel like
19:42
Spider Man and make you feel like you are the protector and
19:45
the friendly neighborhood hero of New York.
19:48
And so digging into how would I feel as a player?
19:51
How what would what would be good?
19:52
And sometimes there's some games that I'm like, OK, I don't play
19:56
these kind of games, but let me understand how the players think
20:01
and what they can do. You know, a good example of that
20:04
was I worked on this game called when I was a Capcom called
20:08
Sengoku Basara, which was a Dynasty Warrior style anime
20:13
game. Not really my thing, not
20:15
something I love to play, but like understanding.
20:17
Cool. You want to feel like you're so
20:19
powerful you can take on an army by yourself.
20:22
Right, like getting into those mindsets and understanding that
20:25
psychological promises. The key to helping people
20:29
understand why they want to play them?
20:31
Yeah, I mean, it's one of the most important tenants of
20:33
storytelling we talked about in the show that understanding your
20:37
audience, taking the time to understand what are they trying
20:38
to do. And I love this idea of wish
20:40
fulfillment. Like, OK, how can this game
20:42
fulfill the wish that no other medium has been able to in the
20:45
past, right? It's not about recreating
20:47
something. It's about fulfilling that wish,
20:50
that promise that the other media of a stories kind of have
20:54
already made. How do you feel that in your
20:56
way? Yeah, yeah.
20:58
And like I said, it's the difference between the immersion
21:00
and the active versus passive participation.
21:03
But I also think movies are like an hour and a half to three
21:09
hours Max 3 1/2. If you're going too long, a
21:12
vision can be anywhere from 10 minute, 10 minute YouTube video
21:16
to a 30 minute sitcom to an hour long drama.
21:20
I think video games because you're trying to give people
21:22
this wish fulfillment that you hope will last infinite hours.
21:27
Honestly, you know, like my biggest goal is I want
21:30
everything I work on to become timeless.
21:31
You know, my, my ultimate goal working on the Marvel stuff is
21:35
like some person who plays it in their 20s when they have a kid,
21:38
when they're 30 or 40 or 50, they're like your spider man's
21:42
cool, but mine was the coolest. Let me show you, right?
21:46
And that's the Spider Man that they go play.
21:47
They take them back to Marvel Spider Man and Marvel Spider Man
21:50
2 or, you know, the Guardians of the Galaxy games or any of our
21:53
other games, right? So that's what I aim for.
21:56
Just try and have some storytelling that's timeless and
21:59
meaningful. What are the key principles you
22:02
follow then, when you think about keeping players engaged
22:05
and coming back to play your games and making your
22:08
storytelling timeless, how do you approach that?
22:11
I think part of it is understanding the thematic,
22:16
overarching themes of the story and then the foundational
22:19
pillars of like, okay, mentorship, whatever it is,
22:22
right? You know, Marvel has its own
22:25
brand pillars that like we always go back to and like,
22:27
obviously one is being heroic, right?
22:29
And so you need to go back to relatability, right?
22:32
Complexity, intensity. This moment's intense, but could
22:35
we ratchet it up to 11? How do we get get there and and
22:38
show really just a depth and of emotional weight and complexity
22:42
to it. So making sure we have key
22:44
things that we're always driving back to store.
22:46
You can. People call them different
22:48
pillars, North Stars, creative strategy, whatever keeps you
22:52
coming back to that story and telling it in a engaging way.
22:56
I think that's true of every game.
22:58
You can select every video game and be like, what was this game
23:01
really about? What were they trying to do?
23:03
Yeah, you know, I love that. I think it's it's so important
23:06
to have these guiding principles to be able to approach it in
23:09
this kind larger than life way. And I love the design thinking
23:12
elements. Can you tell us a little bit you
23:14
know Marvel, I've had a great year, a few years in video games
23:18
and movies and comments and TV. I'm a big Marvel guy.
23:21
Tell us a bit about what makes Marvel storytelling unique.
23:24
What is kind of the Marvel Way Marvel method in the gaming
23:28
industry? Well, First off, thank you for
23:30
being a fan and supporting us. It's always, always good.
23:34
We love that. And I think for me personally
23:37
and how how I approach it, I think Marvel is just, it has
23:40
these aspects to it. It's open, it's complex, it's
23:43
relatable, it's heroic, these things.
23:46
There's some levity and humor to it, right?
23:48
Like things that are just like way back in the day and, and
23:51
when Jack Kirby and Stan Lee and all the folks were working on
23:54
it, they always called it the world outside your window.
23:56
And that that holds true. I think what they're what's been
24:00
evolved nowadays is there's this fluidity to marvel that it sort
24:03
of goes along and sort of understands cultural relevancy
24:07
and trends and what's going on through people's minds and sort
24:10
of adapts things. And one of the stories that I
24:13
like to tell, and you know, people may not always think
24:16
about this or realize this, You know, if you think about where
24:20
Steve Rogers came from, it was World War Two.
24:22
He was punching Hitler in the face.
24:24
He was punching Nazis. Great, cool, right?
24:26
Like that's Captain America. That's what you want.
24:29
The Hulk, gamma radiation. There was a lot of concern when
24:32
it when he was invented over the atom bomb.
24:35
If you look at the Punisher, probably one of the more clear
24:38
examples, when he first came out, he was a vet from the
24:41
Vietnam War. If you look at the Netflix
24:43
series, he's a vet from the Iraqi war.
24:45
So they sort of shift the timeline to sort of create this
24:48
sort of cultural relevancy. And it keeps the brand fresh, it
24:51
keeps the brand fluid, it keeps the brand relatable.
24:53
And when you think about those two wars, when you think about
24:56
the Vietnam War versus the Iraqi war, there's different kind of
24:59
warfare and different sort of psychological outcomes of people
25:03
who engaged in them. And so now the character's
25:06
personality shift a little bit because of that.
25:09
And so in the comics, you would see the Punisher in one way and
25:13
now in the Netflix, so you see them written another way because
25:16
it is reflective of what their experience was.
25:19
And so I think that sort of stuff and that sort of
25:21
storytelling is critical and really, really gets into it.
25:25
So like, I love character BIOS, I love history, I love seeing
25:28
the lore. I love seeing what shaped this
25:30
character for who they are, right.
25:33
And and you know, when we have conversations about what story
25:36
treatment is going to be look looking like character BIOS are
25:40
a big part of it. You know, the story treatment
25:42
itself obviously is a big part, but you know, it starts with the
25:45
pillars and the themes and it goes from there.
25:47
And I think Marvels exceptionally good at being
25:51
fluid with their brand, where they don't get too rigid, they
25:54
don't get too caught up in, hey, our characters have to be this
25:59
certain way and behave this certain way is like, hey, does
26:01
this work? Does this tell a good story?
26:03
Let's mix it up, let's change it up.
26:05
And I think that keeps things fresh.
26:08
And that's really the magic. Of Marvel, has there been any
26:11
characters you've bought on that you learned something new about
26:14
while creating? And how did that process kind of
26:17
go? Yeah, I mean, I worked on it
26:20
with something new. I think all the creative teams
26:23
we work with, especially the games that we have good success
26:27
with, they bring a new fresh take and spin on these
26:30
characters. And I tend to learn something
26:32
new about how I viewed the characters or how they interact
26:38
with the world or what what it means for them.
26:41
It's an obvious 1, You know, I didn't work directly on the
26:43
game. Danny Q's the executive producer
26:45
on it. But Marvel Rivals has Jeff the
26:48
Landshark in it. I knew a little bit about Jeff.
26:50
I like read some of them in the comics, but like just seeing how
26:53
they made him so adorable, how they made him have such
26:56
personality and just sort of be like everybody's favorite mascot
27:00
in a game like Marvel Rivals. Is it really made me learn about
27:06
like, Oh yeah, cool. This is what this character is
27:08
capable of, right? Like, you know, you see it
27:10
initially, you're like, OK, it's just a sidekick.
27:12
But like, no, it could be a mascot.
27:14
It actually could carry, you know, the flag for a whole game
27:18
if you if you phrased it the right way.
27:20
So you learn, you learn things like that.
27:23
You know, I've worked on Spider Man for about 10 years now.
27:25
When I first got to Marvel, Spider Man definitely wasn't
27:28
even in my top ten favorite superheroes.
27:31
But working on the Insomniac version of Spider Man,
27:34
definitely one of my favorite superheroes, right?
27:36
Insomniac was able to make a very unique take on the hero
27:41
that I find highly relatable. You know, for for me, growing
27:44
up, when I saw Spider Man comics, it was like, oh, he's a
27:47
teenager that somehow ends up with Mary Jane and is a genius,
27:51
but I always messes up. And I was like, OK, how could
27:53
all these things happening if you're super smart and you get
27:56
the Super pretty girl? Like it just doesn't make sense
27:58
in my head, in my head, right? And so when Insomniac aged him
28:01
up a little bit, gave him some more 20 year old problems, let's
28:05
say, it just clicked for me. I was just like, I get it.
28:09
I get this character. I understand why it's so
28:12
relatable and universally loved and one of people's favorite
28:15
superheroes of all time. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the
28:18
most important parts about Spider Man and kind of these
28:20
Marvel heroes like Stan Lee wanted him to be a teenager with
28:23
teenage problems, to relate and build that empathy with their
28:26
readers, right. So it's one of the most
28:28
important thing is that they have real problems that they
28:30
aren't invincible. They aren't these things that
28:33
make some large than life. You kind of have to build back
28:36
to core principles. What is that like when you're
28:40
kind of working and you're seeing the impact of the
28:42
audience playing these games, You're seeing kids and they're
28:45
learning lessons. How do you go about telling a
28:47
great story but also making sure the right lessons are imparted
28:50
with your audience? Yeah, I mean, you're always
28:53
showing the human side of the superhuman, right?
28:55
That's what we talked about quite a bit too.
28:57
And that human side is honestly what makes these heroes so
29:01
memorable and relatable and noteworthy.
29:03
And, you know, beyond the the fluidity that Marvel has in
29:06
terms of like how it treats its characters, it is that human
29:09
element that really makes it superheroes connect with people,
29:13
I think. And we say often when Spider Man
29:16
succeeds, Peter Parker fails. When Peter Parker feeds, Spider
29:20
Man fails, right? Like there's that dichotomy and
29:22
that tension all the time. And, you know, we all feel that
29:25
in our personal, personal and professional lives, right?
29:28
Like you could have a really big win at work, but then you get
29:31
home, get yelled at by your partner and you're like, oh, no,
29:34
right. So it's like, or vice versa,
29:36
right? So, you know, I think that's the
29:38
thing that really, really makes Marvel heroes different from a
29:42
lot of the superheroes out there and and makes them unique.
29:46
One of my favorite superhero comics of all time was the Matt
29:49
Fraction David Aja any Wu run on Hawkeye.
29:53
And that is the most human St. level version of the superhero
29:57
ever. And he's just protecting his
29:59
building in Brooklyn with Lucky the Pizza Dog, which I love
30:03
Lucky, I love Hawkeye, I love Kate Bishop.
30:06
And so I think that story is really what got me back into
30:09
comics. Honestly, when that came out, I
30:11
was like, this is amazing. And so I think those sort of
30:14
things really just resonate with me and it connected with like
30:19
some of my own personal experiences in life.
30:21
I'm not like protecting a block in Brooklyn, but I lived in
30:23
Brooklyn and I did have sort of the same sort of like
30:26
neighborhood vibes and and that sense of like pride for my
30:29
community. Yeah, love those insight.
30:33
And a huge part of your career in this industry is dedicating
30:38
is dedicated to marketing obviously the games and the
30:42
studios and you have worked across such a wide range of
30:46
genre of games and different types of studios.
30:50
So I'd love to understand from you, you know, how do you think
30:54
about the differences between these different audiences?
30:57
Let's say Naughty Dog, where the the studio itself has a pretty
31:02
strong brand image. People have certain expectation
31:05
or, you know, Call of Duty from Infinity War.
31:08
That's like, you know, a subset of this video game franchise IP
31:12
that's very well known versus now where you're in Marvel games
31:16
where I think people are obviously way more aware of the
31:21
same IPS but in different mediums.
31:23
How do you approach your marketing and understand your
31:26
audience differently? Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's
31:29
getting to the the principles of what each studio is about,
31:33
believe it or not. One of the things that Naughty
31:34
Dog for me, when I worked there 2011 through 2015, I thought
31:40
Naughty Dog was underappreciated.
31:42
And they kind of were because they were just a video game
31:44
studio at the time. The HBO show hadn't come out,
31:46
the Uncharted movie hadn't come out.
31:49
They were a video game studio in 2014 that had been around 30
31:52
years. And if you got in a Lyft or an
31:56
Uber and told somebody that you worked at Naughty Dog, they
31:59
immediately thought you worked for a dog food company or a porn
32:02
girl and think you worked for a video game company, right.
32:06
And I think part of what my goal there was, and I, I had the idea
32:10
to do the 30th anniversary celebration for Naughty Dog.
32:13
I did a lot of work around that to just sort of lift the studio
32:16
brand up to get it more into the zeitgeist, especially after we
32:21
had the critical success of Last of Us that we did on the on the
32:23
game level. That's what you got to recognize
32:26
and that's what you need to do. You know, a lot of my career has
32:28
been seeing where the gaps in the holes are in an organization
32:33
and what they're not doing. You know, and what Naughty Dog
32:36
had not done to that point was been really good at promoting
32:39
their studio brand, but now they're great at it.
32:43
You know, with Infinity Ward, I did a similar thing when I
32:45
joined there. I wanted to sort of refactor
32:47
their image a little bit. I wanted to modernize it, make
32:49
it a little more sleek. I worked on a space game.
32:52
So my brother worked at NASA or does work in NASA.
32:54
So I was like, yo, I want to work on a space thing.
32:57
Maybe I get to work with my brother.
32:58
I got to work with some of his colleagues, but not him.
33:00
And so we got to do some cool stuff around that.
33:04
And so, you know, you all approach it from a different
33:06
perspective and just kind of make the best of what you can
33:10
for each, for each studio and each place you're at and think
33:14
about what those, what those brand missions are, what the
33:17
brand values are, how they want to talk to people and sort of
33:19
get that out there. And I'm curious, how does that
33:22
work in kind of a bigger or like Disney as a whole and Marvels or
33:26
how do you work with how does the story time process work?
33:30
How do you stay nimble? How do you kind of learn from
33:32
different Disney games or different Marvel departments or
33:35
different things going on? How do you go about approaching
33:38
a bigger studio? It's a lot of finding out who is
33:43
passionate organization about what you're doing right.
33:45
Like if you reach out to people, you're like, all right, do you
33:48
love Marvel? Do you really love Marvel?
33:51
Do you love video games? OK, cool.
33:53
Like all right, like what can we do together, right?
33:56
And so you, you find that going on.
33:58
You also when you join a place, you, you want to make sure that
34:02
they respect the medium, you know, and I, I think Disney, as
34:06
evidenced by what they're doing in video games now, has
34:08
definitely learned like, yo, video games are where it's at.
34:10
When I first joined, they were kind of catching up.
34:13
And now I think the work we did and the work Lucas did and a lot
34:16
of other teams, Pixar, 20 Century Fox, all our Disney
34:20
games, sort of have elevated gaming in the eyes of the org
34:26
itself. And that was the big, big goal
34:28
of mine when I joined Disney because I was, we're going to
34:31
Call of Duty, I was we're going to Naughty Dog.
34:32
I was working on some of the biggest games out there.
34:36
And I didn't want to join another licensing team and just
34:38
make license games, slap a logo on there.
34:41
I wanted to make games that were going to be timeless and lasting
34:44
and also change the perspective of people on like what games
34:47
could be. It always gets back to, for me,
34:51
proving out games are their own art form, their own technical
34:55
achievement, their own high level of craftsmanship and
34:59
creating this amazing digital artifact that people can see
35:04
preserved in some form for hopefully, you know, the rest of
35:07
their their life and talk about it and experience it and go back
35:11
to it when they need to feel something or escape from
35:14
something or do do whatever they need.
35:15
So, you know, like I always try and look for the people that
35:18
want to support that ultimate objective.
35:31
And Eric, we have learned so many great stories and insights
35:34
from you today. And for final closing question,
35:38
we call it suspenders. This is where we ask you a fun
35:41
random thing. It's unrelated and you can give
35:44
us any answer. You feel like the question of
35:46
the day is if you had to go back to school for something
35:51
unrelated to your career, what would it be and why?
35:57
Unrelated to my career, it's hard to say because as I said, I
36:02
think everything can connect to video games in some way.
36:06
But my dad was sold tractors and I grew up around a lot of
36:11
mechanics and I was a mechanic for a little while when I was
36:14
18, but I didn't really and respect it.
36:18
I didn't get into it enough, right?
36:20
Like the trade and the craftsmanship of it, because
36:22
everybody where I grew up was that they had a trade, they had
36:25
a skill. And so now, you know, I'm in a
36:28
house now and, and doing stuff and living in a house and things
36:32
like that. I was like, man, I wish I was
36:33
more handy, right? So I probably go back to school
36:37
to, to have some sort of trading skill or, or that sort of thing.
36:42
Also getting better at music. I did study a little music, but
36:46
I, I think learning a trade like, you know, home repair,
36:50
plumbing, something that really, really gets into the, the nitty
36:53
gritty of it would be a nice skill to to have.
36:57
I love it. Well, thank you so much for
36:59
joining us. This is amazing.
37:00
Yes. Thank you.
37:01
I appreciate your time. Welcome to Top Hat.
37:16
This is the part of the episode where we dissect and analyze
37:19
some of the cool, epic and amazing insights we got from
37:21
this week's expert storyteller. And this week we had the amazing
37:25
Eric Monicelli from Marvel Games and Kev.
37:28
It was the perfect marriage of some of our favorite favorite
37:31
things, comic book fan, Marvel fan, plus your video game
37:34
expertise and fandom. So it was great because we got
37:37
to kind of combine these and talk to someone about such not
37:39
only a powerful spawn storytelling, but also one of
37:43
the most fast growing sectors of the industry.
37:47
Yeah, and he's so well versed in all those aspects too, because
37:51
we obviously talked about video games and video game designs and
37:54
storytellings, but he was also very well knowledge in what
37:59
makes Marvel storytelling worse. So it's such a fascinating
38:03
conversation with someone who really understand all facets of
38:08
the storytelling that he works on.
38:09
And that's the thing about building your careers.
38:11
You're not just talking about your last thing, right?
38:13
You're talking about the whole journey.
38:15
So one, I love it when we talked to someone like Eric where we
38:19
love a pivot. He grew up in this rural town.
38:22
He didn't grow up a huge gamer. He thought he was going to do
38:25
one thing, then he thought he was going to do another thing.
38:27
Then he started doing cool things in medicine, right?
38:30
And then he's like, you know what?
38:31
Gaming and every single one of those career choices, those
38:35
pivots, those experiences, the fact that he was really into
38:38
different forms of storytelling like literature and music, every
38:41
single thing fed into his career.
38:45
Like if it wasn't for his love for music, if it wasn't for his
38:47
medical career, he wouldn't have these tools in his toolkit that
38:51
helped him be a unique gamer. Having outside perspective,
38:54
outside experiences, being able to think about something
38:56
differently is really what sets you apart in any industry.
39:00
It reminds me a lot about our conversation with Andy Pearson
39:03
when we asked him, well, what other marketers do you look at?
39:05
Because there's other amazing marketing firms that are doing
39:08
different things like Duolingo, like Doctor Squatch.
39:10
And he said none of them. No offense to them, but I get my
39:13
inspiration from SNL and music. So it's the reminder that not
39:17
only is speed bumps and twists and turns parts of life, not
39:21
only are they stuff to celebrate because it teaches you lessons,
39:24
but it's stuff that makes you more unique and it gives you the
39:27
skills to approach a problem differently.
39:30
It gives you the skills to say, even though I modeled my career
39:32
after these five people, because I went through these unique
39:34
things, I can build my own life. It's not about following a path.
39:39
It's about forging one that's fully unique and honors your
39:42
whole experience. And that's just storytelling.
39:45
It's about telling you that I'm not trying to do someone else's
39:48
story, I'm trying to build my own.
39:50
Yeah. And what's important is
39:51
embracing the fact that your story is going to be non linear
39:55
and multifaceted and being able to embrace the diversity of your
40:01
own experience fully that allows you to draw inspiration from all
40:05
the little twists and turns. And 1 great example that Eric
40:10
shared with us is. How his love for art and
40:15
studying museums. Museology specifically helped
40:18
him understand game design, and he sees good game design as a
40:24
successful curation of these digital artifacts.
40:28
And that is in turn what motivates players to keep coming
40:32
back to interact with the game, the story, the world.
40:37
He takes so much inspiration from the diverse background that
40:41
he came from, and that is what allows him to excel.
40:45
And something else Eric talks about that was really
40:48
interesting is there's this wish fulfillment aspect in every
40:52
video game. Because what's unique about
40:54
gaming as a format is you are actively engaging, interacting
40:58
in the world, in the story you're playing, the protagonist.
41:01
So the story you experience in a video game is the story you
41:05
created. So when it comes to marketing,
41:08
what wish does this game fulfill for the players?
41:12
And if you're able to effectively communicate that to
41:16
your audience, that's how you're able to successfully market your
41:20
game, your product to your fan. Base I loved when he talked
41:24
about like the pillars of Marvel entertainment is we want to take
41:27
you on a hero or journey and then so the game is built around
41:30
here rating that hit journey, but also the Vikings will be a
41:33
hero and also it reminds you of storytelling as a whole.
41:37
Any type of storytelling, whether it's a pitch shutter at
41:40
work, whether you're trying to sell your company, you are
41:43
trying to serve A wish right. You are trying to tell a
41:45
journey. You're trying to say hey, oh, I
41:47
just kicked my desk. You're trying to say, hey, my
41:51
app or this thing that work or this business is going to
41:55
fulfill this wish, whether it's to get all these people to use
41:59
this app and make you money. I'm trying to fulfill the wish
42:01
of making you money by fulfilling our customers wish of
42:03
doing this. So I think it's it's a good
42:06
story time tenant of like, OK, what wish are you trying to
42:10
fulfill to your audience and how are you going to get them there
42:15
through your story? Yeah, for someone who has played
42:21
all three of the Spider Man games on PlayStation, I can
42:25
honestly say that that of your game franchise next to Spider
42:29
Verse has been my favorite way of experiencing the Spider Man
42:33
story. There's something irreplaceable
42:35
about being actively engaging in the world, traversing through
42:41
New York City, shooting webs as we control it.
42:44
So it's such a pleasure to be able to talk to one of the minds
42:48
that helped put these games together and deliver those into
42:52
the world. This has been another great
42:54
episode of the Linen Student Plastic type podcast.
42:57
If you like our show, make sure to subscribe and follow us
43:01
wherever you listen or watch. Leave us a comment and a review.
43:05
Let us know how we can do better and follow us on Instagram,
43:10
Tiktok at LSPT Pod, LinkedIn. Lenin suit on plastic tie.
43:16
We appreciate you, although I recently found out Kevin cuts
43:19
most of these. We, we appreciate you.
43:23
Thank you for listening and thank you for dedicating
43:26
yourself to becoming a better storyteller because we are
43:30
species of storytellers and that's how we get better and
43:32
that's how society progresses. I'm Gorv.
43:36
And I'm Kevin, and that was concise, so I'll leave it in
43:39
this time. I feel like this episode was so
43:42
many good bloopers for our adventure Blooper wheel, which
43:45
now will be on video. We'll see you next time.