Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 106. All About Ghostwriting

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106. All About Ghostwriting · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:05
  Welcome to the Show Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction.
• 0:13
  Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
• 0:20
  Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own writing lives and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
• 0:38
  Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
• 0:42
  There are real and important skills that you need to learn.
• 0:45
  On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
• 0:49
  I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing Today we have special guest, Marni Senneker, on the podcast, and I can't wait to talk about the topic, which is ghostwriting, because ghostwriting is when a writer or an author hires a writer to write it for them, and then puts their name on it.
• 1:11
  And so as you might imagine, the actual writer of the book doesn't usually disclose much about that.
• 1:18
  I have a ghostwriter who is also a dear friend and colleague, Author Accelerator certified coach, Marni Senneker, on the podcast today, and we are gonna go behind the scenes and learn all the things it means to be a ghostwriter.
• 1:30
  So if you're curious, this is the place to be.
• 1:33
  Marni has been a full-time book coach, ghostwriter, and editor since 2017, and she helps authors sharpen their book concept and define the problem that their book solves.
• 1:43
  From there, she coaches authors to develop a manuscript that delivers on reader transformation.
• 1:49
  Her superpower is helping charismatic thought leaders bring their magnetism to the page.
• 1:54
  Marni's an Author Accelerator certified book coach, and the subjects and genres that she's interested in and what she works on and she's an expert in are narrative nonfiction, not memoir, everything but memoir.
• 2:07
  She works on prescriptive nonfiction in leadership and business and personal development, which used to be known as self-help.
• 2:14
  I can't wait for you to come behind the scenes with us.
• 2:17
  We don't hold anything back.
• 2:18
  Enjoy.
• 2:21
  I am so excited to see Marni today.
• 2:24
  Welcome to the podcast, Marni.
• 2:26
  Thank you very much.
• 2:27
  Happy to see you.
• 2:28
  It's my first one.
• 2:29
  I'm so excited.
• 2:30
  This is your first podcast ever?
• 2:32
  Yeah.
• 2:32
  Oh my goodness.
• 2:33
  Well, you're in the right place, and luckily, we have talked lots and lots about this.
• 2:38
  I love having Marni in my sphere, because there's very few coaches out there who actually work with nonfiction prescriptive books, and so we gotta stick together, right, Marni?
• 2:47
  We do.
• 2:48
  Okay Definitely.
• 2:50
  So we're gonna start at the very beginning here for our- Great … dear listeners who are tuning in, wanting to talk about this thing called ghostwriting.
• 2:57
  So what is it?
• 2:59
  Is it writing about ghosts?
• 3:00
  It's not writing about ghosts.
• 3:01
  No, it's so funny, 'cause when I … Sometimes when I write it, I'm like ghostwriter is one word, but actually, when it's, if you think of it into two words, like you are writing quietly as a ghost for someone else, right?
• 3:13
  Like, that's what you're doing.
• 3:14
  You are putting someone else's thoughts and words to the page for them.
• 3:19
  So I wanted to say this, but there's a spectrum, like with coaching Everyone does it differently, and there's a spectrum to ghostwriting too.
• 3:27
  And so I just- I'm sort of gonna lay out where the ends of that are.
• 3:31
  So on- Fill us in, because it's such- Yeah a big, broad term and category.
• 3:34
  Totally.
• 3:35
  Yeah, and I, I mean, I think just like every writer brings a different tone and content and context to the page, the same is true of the ghostwriting process.
• 3:45
  So on the most hands-on end of the spectrum, which is, like, really, really ghostwriting, where the a- author themselves doesn't even take a pen to the page, it's interviewing.
• 3:57
  It's 70 hours of interviewing, something like that, plus or minus.
• 4:00
  It's developing an outline, running it by the author to make sure this is what they're talking about.
• 4:06
  Basically writing the proposal or the, the concept form that we would coach someone through, but the, as a ghostwriter, you do that for the author.
• 4:14
  And then going through so many chapters, just like you would if you were working with an editor and an agent, uh, and a book that you'd already sold in the, in the fiction world.
• 4:23
  So that's one end of the spectrum.
• 4:24
  The- And not putting your name on it.
• 4:27
  Correct.
• 4:27
  Right?
• 4:27
  Like, this is, this is the important thing.
• 4:28
  Totally.
• 4:29
  So somebody is helping you, the ghostwriter is helping you- Yes… doing that, that hands-on piece is one and never discloses- Correct … that they wrote your book for you.
• 4:40
  No byline.
• 4:41
  Usually th- some people will agree to co-author, so that is like, that's something you negotiate up front, and you negotiate that up front if you as a ghostwriter are a household name or you've run things yourself.
• 4:52
  So if you're, I don't remember the name of the guy that did Prince Harry's, but if you're that guy, you're leading with your million-dollar fee and your name as a co-writer.
• 5:02
  That- that's a, that's a way to go.
• 5:04
  But the way I do it is I'm not, I'm not on the byline at all.
• 5:07
  And I was just listening to Lisa Rinna on, there she had some blurb.
• 5:11
  Lisa Rinna of The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, by the way, for people who don't know.
• 5:15
  Um, she's got a memoir coming out right now, and she had a ghostwriter for it, and she's very up front about it.
• 5:21
  And, um, she's like, "W- why would I think that I would be good at doing this when I'm good at doing other things?" And I was thinking about an analogy for that, that, like, someone in the business world might be able to understand, and here it is.
• 5:32
  If you, um, have never played golf before, and you think you're gonna go out and shoot par the first time you play, that's what it can be like if you're a, a non-author trying to write a prescriptive nonfiction book.
• 5:45
  So I 100% agree that there's a place for collaboration, and it might be on this ghostwriting end of the spectrum, or it might be at the other end of the spectrum of collaboration, which I would describe as more of the coaching style, right?
• 6:01
  So- The writer maybe comes, the author comes to me with an outline and, or, or even we will do interviews, for example, and I will write the outline and I will- they will fill in the blank for the outline, right?
• 6:13
  It'll ask a bunch of questions.
• 6:15
  They'll answer the questions.
• 6:16
  I'll say something like, "We need a story about something here," and that's also a collaboration.
• 6:21
  So that's just the sort of like less hands-on version of that.
• 6:24
  And in that version, I'm also not anywhere in the t- you know, in the byline, right?
• 6:29
  I'm still just b- behind the scenes.
• 6:32
  Now, I will say, as is true for most of us coaches, once the book is published, you're thanked in the acknowledgments, and so that's kind of the admission, I'd say, of what collaboration looks like a lot of the time.
• 6:42
  But some people are very forthcoming about it, you know, which I think makes perfect sense.
• 6:46
  Again, who would expect to go out and shoot par the first time they played golf?
• 6:49
  Why would you think you could be great at this other thing, and then go off and write a book and have it just be like perfect and amazing the first time if you don't write?
• 6:58
  So that's kind of the deal.
• 6:59
  And a lot of my clients are writers.
• 7:00
  Yeah, they're first timers.
• 7:01
  Yeah.
• 7:01
  And, and okay, but, uh, there is a place, and just before we get started, we're gonna talk about ghostwriting today, what it is to basically hire somebody to write a book for you and then put your name on it, right?
• 7:12
  Like, that's what we're doing.
• 7:13
  Yeah.
• 7:14
  Which is fine.
• 7:14
  Yeah.
• 7:15
  That's not to say if you've never written a book that you can't learn to write a book.
• 7:18
  And there's- Correct … pros and cons to both, so we're gonna go through it.
• 7:21
  For sure.
• 7:22
  But today we're talking about that.
• 7:23
  Okay, so how does that differ from editing?
• 7:25
  'Cause we talked about how it kind of differs from like a really hands-on- Yeah … coach, where mostly the writer is writing and the coach is collaborating and, and helping.
• 7:34
  But there's also editing.
• 7:35
  So just to get all of this straight in our brains when people are- Yeah … like,"Oh, maybe I wanna hire a ghostwriter," how does that differ from an editor?
• 7:44
  I mean, I think there's … Editing also ha- is on a spectrum, right?
• 7:48
  So people will say to you, I don't know if you go through this too, but like, "I just need a proof.
• 7:53
  I just need this proofread." And then you get it and you realize, no, they actually need even … I mean, again, on the most hands-on element of that, they need the doctor, which is someone who will kind of write the connective tissue between the thoughts, or write the little conclusion to the chapter.
• 8:10
  That's like much more of a, you know, that's kind of the tweener between ghostwriting and editing.
• 8:16
  But editing is a whole spectrum.
• 8:18
  So like, you know, it might be a … And people call it the different things.
• 8:21
  A developmental edit to one person is something different to someone else.
• 8:24
  So the bi- the basics of editing though are that the author brings the words on the page to the editor.
• 8:33
  That's the, uh, as if you imagine the entire thing is, is done, and you're submitting however many words, 70,000 words, say, to be edited, and then someone like you or I steps in and decides based on what we see how heavy a hand we have to take on that edit- Exactly um, and how much revision coaching we would need to be doing.
• 8:57
  Yeah, exactly.
• 8:58
  And I think, I mean, for myself, I don't proofread or line edit anymore.
• 9:03
  I, I used to do it.
• 9:04
  Yeah.
• 9:04
  My, my eyes- Yeah … can't do it now.
• 9:06
  But I do think there's a lot more value for what I bring to the table in terms of developmental editing, or kind of sliding into that book doctor region- Yeah where I do, I do provide a lot of suggestions as well, which a lot of editors don't.
• 9:19
  So yeah, the, it, it just depends where you are on that spectrum.
• 9:22
  Okay, so you personally, Marnie, work with nonfiction prescriptive, and I wanted, uh, we'll define that in just a second if you're not familiar.
• 9:28
  And also narrative.
• 9:29
  But yeah.
• 9:30
  And, and narrative nonfiction- Mm-hmm … which includes personal- Mm-hmm … development books.
• 9:34
  But ghostwriting also exists for fiction writers.
• 9:38
  But this is a very different animal.
• 9:40
  Do you wanna just say- Yeah … a little bit about- About what the difference is, because I think a lot of people will come up to you, and you probably have this as well, like,"I've got a great idea for a book.
• 9:49
  You should write it." And they think that you're gonna do this for free or out of the goodness of your heart or something, right?
• 9:55
  So- Yeah… so do- Their idea is so good that you- Yeah … you'd be, like, dying to sit down and write it.
• 9:59
  Yeah.
• 9:59
  So there's a difference between nonfiction and fiction, and fiction kind of comes about in a different way.
• 10:03
  So do you j- just wanna talk about what's out there in the marketplace if you're looking for a fiction ghostwriter?
• 10:08
  It's different.
• 10:08
  I mean, I don't know how fiction ghostwriters work, honestly.
• 10:12
  Right.
• 10:12
  I mean, they're, they may … I'm sure they're out there.
• 10:15
  I'd say that, you know, we have this thing we talk about as writers, where we say,"Are you a plotter or are you a pantser?" Right?
• 10:22
  I'm, I'm a quilter.
• 10:24
  Okay.
• 10:25
  Which is kind of halfway in between there.
• 10:26
  Me too, actually.
• 10:27
  That's so funny.
• 10:28
  Bringing other people's ideas together is what I'm doing as a quilter- Exactly… as a ghostwriter, and a collaborator.
• 10:32
  But, but I imagine if you are a, that the, either the, the ghostwriter in that scenario or the author, or both of them, have to be plotters in some way, because you can't free-form an, a whole idea onto, you know, 50, 70, 80,000 words just through talking, right?
• 10:52
  Like, so I mean, you think about a, a fiction writers, you know their process, and like, you know, Michael Chabon will have the entire You know, all the arc, the mini arcs, the plot lines, the story lines, and then he will sit down and work for hours on one paragraph, right?
• 11:10
  Like, that … You're not doing it like that i- if you're just interviewing, right?
• 11:14
  You have to have some kind of a compass, and what that looks like, I have no idea.
• 11:18
  Right.
• 11:18
  But I think, um, I can't imagine, like, the amount of intricacies in, in character development or in- You know, there's a lot more permission given to the ghostwriter in, in those- Yeah… circumstances 'cause you're not writing about somebody's personal story, right?
• 11:33
  Yeah.
• 11:33
  But I … But also, I mean, it's very unusual.
• 11:36
  You wouldn't just go out and say, "I have this idea for a fiction novel and I'm gonna hire a ghostwriter." That'd be very unusual.
• 11:40
  No, you can't.
• 11:41
  How would you do that?
• 11:42
  What … The way that it shows up more often, that I see anyways, and it comes up, sometimes my agent will come to me with something, you know, a publisher will have an imprint or names that they have out there that they will ask you to write for, or a very famous author, uh, who no longer writes their own books or doesn't want to may commission- Yes you write the first draft.
• 12:04
  So it looks different in fiction.
• 12:07
  Or there's a series, like the Geronimo Stilton series, for example, where you don't get a byline.
• 12:13
  It's just- Yeah … lots of different people write that.
• 12:15
  Yeah.
• 12:15
  So there's different things that you can do in middle grade or other, other serieses that are run like that.
• 12:20
  But they're often run directly by the publisher.
• 12:22
  But in prescriptive nonfiction, which we're about to define- Yeah … I c- I'm so happy that everybody's hanging on their every word.
• 12:29
  Waiting for this.
• 12:30
  It's often your own story, and so you're commissioning this ghostwriter to go write it for you, with you.
• 12:37
  So what is- Yeah prescriptive nonfiction, Marnie?
• 12:39
  Okay.
• 12:40
  And what is narrative?
• 12:40
  Um, well, first of all, thanks for teaching me about the way fiction ghostwriters work because I w- I did know that someone like John Grisham or Toni Morrison back in the day- They have a team of people, but I don't think they're like just running out, having to pronounce or say their names.
• 12:54
  Okay.
• 12:54
  Um, I mean how many- Duke Carson has a whole team.
• 12:56
  They're big all over the place … yeah, how do you roll out with like, how do you roll out that many titles in a year with all the … Okay.
• 13:02
  They don't.
• 13:02
  Yeah.
• 13:02
  Yeah.
• 13:03
  Um, so, so prescriptive, you, you said something just a second ago that I think I would just like to clarify, which is to say that prescriptive nonfiction- First of all, the arc of change is the, is the reader's arc of change, right?
• 13:15
  So when you're … We all know this, but like just for the sake of educating the podcast people, if it's a- I wouldn't say that everybody knows that.
• 13:22
  I mean, I- Okay … I teach that same thing 'cause we were trained the same way, but- Yeah.
• 13:25
  Yeah, I wouldn't say people know it So, so if it's a, if it's a memoir, the arc of change is, is the author themselves, and I don't do that kind of work anymore, although I, I will edit them, and I do read them.
• 13:35
  I mean, it's a genre I consume like crazy.
• 13:38
  In fiction, it's the protagonist or protagonists.
• 13:42
  They're the ones that have the transformation.
• 13:43
  But, but prescriptive nonfiction, also known as self-help or personal development, the arc of change is for the reader, right?
• 13:50
  And so I'm bringing you something that will make your life better.
• 13:54
  We're solving a problem that you have.
• 13:56
  Often it's very specific, and I, we always say as coaches, the more specific it is, the better you are to able to define your audience, and your target reader, and all those things.
• 14:07
  The more specific you can make the problem you're solving and who you're solving it for, the better the project is.
• 14:13
  And it's not so much storytelling, although most authors in this area have personal elements of it.
• 14:20
  Obviously, it's what they're passionate about.
• 14:22
  They've developed a framework to teach it, and their story will kind of be around the work, right?
• 14:27
  So you might have it where The author lays out a problem that they have that th- that this element of their framework solves at the beginning, and then at the end they talk about how they have, you know, s- used their own tools to make this change for themselves.
• 14:43
  And then they'll give the reader something to do to take action to help themselves with the problem that's being solved.
• 14:50
  So let's take Meditation for Mortals, for example, which is Oliver Burkeman.
• 14:54
  You know, it's a very… The problem is that we all know it's good to meditate and that we should do it, but we don't, we can't make ourselves do it, right?
• 15:03
  And so it's- Right, exactly.
• 15:05
  It's a no box I'm definitely in that camp.
• 15:06
  You can't see me shaking my head, dear listeners- Totally … but I, I'm shaking it and Marty's laughing at me.
• 15:11
  Well, meditation- Like, that's just not my jam.
• 15:13
  I do it- But like- … but it's not my jam.
• 15:15
  Again, girl, you know, like, y- it, the, the neural pathways, the way the neuroscience works in the brain, it's really good for you to do, but we cannot make ourselves do it.
• 15:23
  And so a book like this is someone just saying to all of us, "Hey, you can do this, and here's how." Yeah.
• 15:30
  But Oliver Burkeman, he's a writ- I think he does, he's a author himself.
• 15:34
  But, but I know that, like, some people who have these frameworks and who have trainings and teachings and all the things, you know, they don't always have a ton of books out there that are telling people how to do stuff, so.
• 15:44
  Yeah, so if you are a, a person who has a skill that you've either done for yourself or that you've taught other people to do, you might be considering Writing a nonfiction prescriptive or personal development book to help other people.
• 16:00
  So Marnie, in your experience, how would a book like that support someone's business?
• 16:05
  Like, why would somebody even bother writing it?
• 16:08
  It seems like a pain, right?
• 16:10
  Why- Yeah … what do you see?
• 16:12
  Well, I'm working with someone right now who has 40,000 LinkedIn followers.
• 16:17
  He's a prolific writer himself.
• 16:19
  He does newsletters.
• 16:20
  He does lots of short form content.
• 16:22
  He does not read books.
• 16:24
  He only reads short form.
• 16:26
  So he doesn't really know what we're trying to build here, but he has a brand, and he would like to up his TEDx talk.
• 16:35
  He'd like to serve on publicly traded boards, uh, bus- you know, boards of publicly traded businesses.
• 16:41
  So it's really a way to kind of mark a line in the sand that says like, "I'm here. Here is a physical representation of what I can teach you." And, you know, it's establishing that person's brand in the marketplace of their specialty, right?
• 16:59
  So that's, a lot of the business books that I work on are, you know, framework based or teamwork based or mentor based systems that people use in their professional lives, but they don't have a book to show it.
• 17:11
  So that's sort of the, the way it would be used.
• 17:14
  It's part of a brand building.
• 17:14
  It's brand building too.
• 17:16
  Yeah, and especially for those who are keynote speakers or are going after the TEDx talks and things, but also just as one more element.
• 17:24
  I mean, it's probably, it may not, may not be the one that makes you rich.
• 17:28
  Ha.
• 17:28
  Yeah.
• 17:29
  But I find like every single nonfiction prescriptive book that I work on with a writer, with a … I mean, I don't ghostwrite, I, I coach them, so it's a little bit different.
• 17:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:38
  But just that process of having it opens doors, changes their mind, and I'm sure that they go through that same process when, when you interview them, and when they review how you've put it together in a framework, it's probably mind-blowing.
• 17:51
  Like, the conversations with their clients change, and the conversations- Right … with their prospects change, and, and, and their whole sort of thoughts of their business gets sharper and clearer, and they're able to share it.
• 18:02
  Definitely the process of writing does a lot of that, whether I coach it or I write it for them, it definitely clarifies the concept really well.
• 18:10
  But I think the, the difference that I would say, or I guess I would add to what you've said, I'm gonna say that I think those typewriters measure ROI differently, right?
• 18:19
  So you're not looking at your return on investment based on how many books you sell.
• 18:25
  You're looking at it on how many new clients you might have brought in as a result.
• 18:29
  And so if you think about it that way, if you're a wealth management professional, for example, and your book- elevates you to be in a room for… Like next week I'm going to a fundraising lunch, and the client, this author, is giving her book away to the partic- to the, uh, attendees at the lunch.
• 18:49
  But it's a great way for her to get one new client, and if she does, that's like, you know, a million dollars.
• 18:55
  Yes, exactly.
• 18:57
  I just happen to have this on my- It's a million dollars… this, this was not planned.
• 19:00
  All right.
• 19:00
  I happen to have on my desk a book that I coached, which is by a financial planner, Kaylie Boisvert, Make Money Your Thing.
• 19:07
  And yeah, it completely changed her business.
• 19:09
  When we first started- Yeah writing this book, she was, you know, struggling for prospects, and they just come because everything became sharper and clearer.
• 19:16
  And again, I mean, this book has done well, but it's not the book pulling in everything.
• 19:22
  It's- Right… everything around it.
• 19:24
  Okay.
• 19:25
  Definitely.
• 19:25
  So when does it make sense to write a book yourself, and when does it make sense to be like, "Okay, this is it.
• 19:31
  I need a ghostwriter"?
• 19:33
  I think that that's a good question.
• 19:35
  I think it varies.
• 19:36
  I mean, if you're a pers- a lot of people know what their own limitations are, right?
• 19:41
  It's time.
• 19:42
  It's also maybe not knowing the genre very well.
• 19:44
  I mean, if you're a person like this client that I have who doesn't read books, you know, how do you plan to write one that, that's gonna look like what you know it needs to look like?
• 19:53
  And how do you position it in the marketplace because you don't know what else is out there, and how do you … You know, those are things I think … But some people just sort of know, like, "I don't wanna work this hard, honestly, and I wanna do it with someone, and why would I think I can go out and shoot par when I have never played golf before?" Sometimes that can be a really smart approach to being efficient for yourself, knowing your own- Yeah … having the self-awareness to know your own limits.
• 20:19
  Um- Absolutely … so yeah.
• 20:20
  So I have a, uh, another client who I cannot mention, but who just sends me, like, a list of thought fragments and the, the overall concepts, you know, and says, "I need help with the- finishing off these last three chapters.
• 20:35
  Can you put this into something?" And then they will edit my work.
• 20:38
  So that's, that … They, they made it most of the way themselves, but it needed a lot of support, and so, you know, that's the kind of thing where someone who's a ghostwriter or a collaborator, which is, this is what I would call myself in this case, versus straight-out ghostwriting, um, will just come in and help someone get across the finish line.
• 20:56
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:57
  Okay, so n- now, before all our listeners get all excited and say,"Ugh, yeah, writing a book's hard.
• 21:01
  I'm in the middle. I'm just gonna hire somebody to write it for me." Mm. Yeah.
• 21:06
  You know, before you think of this as, like, this stable of writers out there that are like this ChatGPT that you can give them the requirements and out comes the book, right?
• 21:15
  This is not that.
• 21:17
  Um- Yeah … this is a collaborative process, and it- Totally … it's an investment as well, right?
• 21:22
  Yeah.
• 21:22
  And, and so it's not easy to find, number one, somebody who would be willing to write your book, um, and number two, it is a huge investment, and there's a reason for that.
• 21:32
  Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
• 21:34
  Because there's a big misconception out there about what it might cost or what it might feel like to just hire somebody.
• 21:41
  What kinds of- Sure … projects make sense to do this for?
• 21:44
  Okay, here's a great example.
• 21:45
  This is a education reform book that I worked on.
• 21:48
  It came out maybe a year and a, year and change ago.
• 21:51
  I was contacted by the agents that represented that project.
• 21:56
  There were three co-authors, and they needed a, not a wrangler so much, but they needed a, a compass, right?
• 22:05
  They needed someone to help them make their, all their voices and all their ideas come together.
• 22:10
  They needed it to follow the proposal that they, that they sold to the publisher.
• 22:14
  There were a lot of reasons to, to bring someone in, and they interviewed a few people.
• 22:18
  And the market rate for that book is 75 to $85,000 as, as a ghostwriter Yeah.
• 22:25
  I have an agent, and that's generally what she quotes for me to work on something.
• 22:30
  Kind of depends on what the project is, but it's expensive.
• 22:32
  It's, it's big business.
• 22:33
  And there's a reason for that.
• 22:34
  Yeah.
• 22:34
  I mean, Marnie, your skillset is so rare, honestly, and for you to give up your own writing, for you to give up working on lots of other projects, I mean, I work with 50 writers a year one-on-one.
• 22:45
  I couldn't do that if I was trying to write- No somebody else's book.
• 22:48
  So you gotta- No… replace that income, right?
• 22:50
  Like- Yes… but I respect what you do so work to actually write a book.
• 22:56
  I can support a lot of writers going through this process- Mm-hmm … because I kind of dip in and dip out and support them along the way, and I just read what they wrote and give them comments, but then they're the ones doing the work.
• 23:06
  Yeah.
• 23:06
  Um, but when you're doing the work, the reason that it is expensive, and it can go up from there, right?
• 23:12
  Like- Definitely… as you get more and … You're only gonna Um- I mean- But it's not, it's not, you know, pay somebody 500 bucks and get your book written for you.
• 23:22
  No.
• 23:22
  It's not.
• 23:23
  I mean- Right… and my thing with editing- It look at it a lot of different ways.
• 23:27
  You can look at it on a project C, you can look at it as dollars per word.
• 23:32
  You know, it just kind of depends on what the project is.
• 23:35
  But no matter what, even if I'm writing it- I- in the most strict sense of ghostwriting from interviews.
• 23:42
  Even if I'm writing it from interviews, there still has to be so much back and forth with the author because I'm not g- no one gets it right the first time.
• 23:48
  I don't get it right the first time either.
• 23:49
  Sometimes I don't get it right the fifth time.
• 23:50
  You know, you're just … You're iterating just like you do as a writer.
• 23:54
  You have to iterate, and that I think is something that people, again, who aren't experienced writing books or, you know, working with writers at all don't appreciate.
• 24:02
  We all iterate so much.
• 24:04
  I mean, it's, it's not right the first time.
• 24:06
  And to the ex- expectation that it will be is just, like, inappropriate, right?
• 24:10
  And so it's recalibrating, I think, some- sometimes your expectations both for how long it takes and how much it's gonna cost, but also just, like, how much back and forth there has to be to get it right, which is just, yeah, normal.
• 24:21
  And it's not … When, when we talk about this, 'cause if you haven't written… You know, if listeners haven't written a book like this before, they may not be aware, even if they consume a lot of nonfiction, what actually goes into it.
• 24:33
  Because the biggest thing is, is the structure and the vibe, right?
• 24:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:37
  And, and for Marni to be able to figure out your vibe and write in your voice- Mm-hmm… it's not a mechanical exercise.
• 24:44
  Not.
• 24:45
  Some kind of AI could do, or it's not- Yeah … like writing a business article.
• 24:49
  It's a whole book, and it's your … You said, it's their brand, and it's gotta be their vibe, right?
• 24:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:56
  And, and so that takes a minute for you to get to because they- Mm-hmm … may not even know what their vibe is until they get this project going.
• 25:03
  Definitely.
• 25:04
  Because they've never- I mean, I think they … I think people can usually say, like, especially with prescriptive nonfiction, I think, you know, most everyone that I've worked with wants it to be accessible to the reader, right?
• 25:15
  It has to be … Th- that's why I think people put their personal stories and their own, their own evolution in there because they have to … It has to be relatable.
• 25:23
  It has to be intim- there's an intimacy, there's a trust that you develop with the author as the reader.
• 25:29
  And so, yes, I mean, I think I … I think being a people person actually, oddly, is actually a really great benefit to being a ghostwriter because I do, I love talking to people.
• 25:39
  I love people.
• 25:40
  I love connection.
• 25:41
  That's why collaboration makes so much sense to me because we're writing this together.
• 25:45
  Even if I'm putting it all on the page, it's still us doing it together, right?
• 25:49
  But yes, it's expensive.
• 25:50
  Back to your original question.
• 25:51
  Yeah, no, it is.
• 25:52
  And it's a lot of work.
• 25:53
  See this before, how many people I work with in a year, and it might be, like, you know, one straight up ghostwriting project, and then two collaborations where I ghostwrite the proposal, we sell it, and then I, I work with the writer all the way through to the final drafting.
• 26:09
  That's more of, like, a doula type situation, like a, like a sherpa situation.
• 26:13
  But I call that a collaboration too because I'm every step of the way.
• 26:17
  We're talking through it.
• 26:18
  I'm looking at pages.
• 26:19
  We're revising together before we get it to the publisher, so- Yeah, three clients a year maybe.
• 26:26
  Yeah, and that's because you give them your all.
• 26:29
  And I like to say- Yeah … I mean, when I tell people, and so listeners, listen up, because I say, "If you send me questions in email, I will answer them all day long for free." It might take me a minute.
• 26:40
  I travel a lot.
• 26:41
  I'm really busy.
• 26:41
  My inbox gets really full, but my team's really good at eventually saying, "Suzie, this is like you, you gotta get back." I'll answer that for free.
• 26:49
  If you want me to look at your pages, worry about them, think about them as if they were my own, and wake up at 3:00 A.M. with a good idea for you, then that's when we engage in something.
• 26:58
  But then Marni's going that next level where this is like her main project and taking it on and like doing the work.
• 27:05
  So awesome.
• 27:06
  Okay.
• 27:06
  So is just about time savings and that skill gap, or what does using a ghostwriter actually bring to your book?
• 27:14
  Do you end up with the same book that you would've written yourself?
• 27:18
  I mean, clear- you're shaking your head, obviously not.
• 27:20
  And, um, and yes, I, I don't think you'd come up with the same book.
• 27:24
  But like imagine it this way.
• 27:25
  If you have … If you're … You have to have a knee surgery, right?
• 27:29
  You have to have your … You're not just gonna be like, "I'm smart. I can do my own knee surgery." There's a lot of training and work that goes into someone who's able to do a knee surgery, right?
• 27:37
  Like, if you're gonna be a surgeon, you've put in the hours, you've got the reps, you have the education, all those things are true.
• 27:44
  But, but the other thing I think which is so powerful is like if you get two surgeons in a room together to talk ideas, whatever they come out with in the end is more powerful and more impactful than what one of them could've done themselves.
• 27:58
  And I'm just talking about ideas here, obviously not the surgery itself.
• 28:00
  But like even a surgeon doesn't do it all themselves, right?
• 28:03
  They have other people in the room helping them do all the things, bringing the expertise that those people have.
• 28:07
  So like there's an anesthesiologist, there's a nurse, there's a … You know, my … It, it … And doing things collaboratively just makes them better, right?
• 28:14
  The outcome is so much more impactful and so much more polished and so much better when you have some great minds working on something together.
• 28:22
  So you and your idea and, and, and my brain and my expertise come together to make something really magical for the person who's reading it, and I think that's sort of the idea.
• 28:34
  And then it's also magical for the writer, right?
• 28:35
  Because if you're doing it well, if you're doing it well, you're not only building your reader's confidence and their skills in whatever you're sharing with them to learn how to do, but you're also building your own brand, and that's, you know, that's a, that's a win-win, if you will.
• 28:49
  Absolutely.
• 28:50
  Okay, so you talked a little bit about this, but maybe you could expand.
• 28:54
  How does working with a ghostwriter work?
• 28:56
  I love that you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast 70 hours of interviews of like … 'Cause you have a process.
• 29:02
  Yeah.
• 29:02
  What, what is that from- what can people expect?
• 29:04
  Okay, great.
• 29:05
  Marni, you sold me.
• 29:06
  Let's do this, and Marni also agrees to do it.
• 29:09
  What do you … What does that mean?
• 29:11
  Okay.
• 29:12
  So, um, it kind of depends on how the project comes to me.
• 29:15
  So if it's one that I start with, if I coach and, and/or if I ghostwrite the proposal, then we're using that, the annotated table of contents, as our outline.
• 29:28
  If a proposal comes to me from an agent, then I will … I sort of play this in between role.
• 29:35
  Same deal with interviews.
• 29:36
  We basically take the annotated table of contents, depending on how built out that is, we build out an outline, and then we do the interviews to fill in the blanks, a- and/or the research.
• 29:47
  Sometimes I'll be doing the research to fill in the blanks, too, if we need that, right?
• 29:50
  So, so there's lots of different parts of that.
• 29:52
  And then I'm sending you, the author, pages to look at, and I'll usually send them to you and your agent just to make sure we're on the right, you know, in the right lane because editors So, so at, once it gets to publishing point, right, your agent has sold your book to Penguin Random House, and whoever is the editor at Penguin Random House that bought that, the acquisitions editor, they wanna know that the book that you're writing matches the proposal that they paid you an advance for.
• 30:19
  And so I'm sort of like navigating, walking that line between the, the writer, who maybe is a, you know, behavioral scientist, and the editor, who wants a particular thing for a particular audience, and making sure that those things line up, and that what we're, what we're writing is what we've promised Okay.
• 30:40
  So we're talking about a lot of things and, and- Yeah … listeners might be jotting them all down and saying,"Okay, so I get a publisher first, and then I get a proposal." Mm-hmm.
• 30:48
  Yeah.
• 30:48
  Can you just walk us through what the parts are?
• 30:51
  Because I don't think that this is common knowledge.
• 30:53
  Yes.
• 30:53
  Many of the listeners to this podcast are at very early stages.
• 30:56
  They may have … We're talking mostly about the traditional publishing process, which is fine.
• 31:01
  Yeah.
• 31:01
  Yeah.
• 31:02
  But, but they're mostly at the earlier stages, like thinking that they may want to write a book, and so can you just talk us through how that all goes down?
• 31:10
  'Cause that, I don't think that's common knowledge.
• 31:12
  Sure.
• 31:13
  Well, I'll just tell you, like in my Author Accelerator world- Mm-hmm… there's kind of, think of it this way, mi- the, the mini blueprint, which is one of the things that like, you know, it's a sort of a morsel of a concept.
• 31:27
  It's a, it's an inkling of an idea for what your audience should look like.
• 31:31
  It's a book jacket copy.
• 31:32
  It's a good and bad review.
• 31:34
  It, it's small, right?
• 31:35
  It's a little morsel.
• 31:36
  It's your reader's journey.
• 31:37
  It's your … Yeah.
• 31:38
  Yeah.
• 31:38
  It's all those things.
• 31:39
  I mean, it's a, it, it, okay, so that's sort of the, the beginning stage, right?
• 31:43
  Then I would probably do a concept with someone, and we'd sort of test out their platform, how this book will sell, who will buy it, how specifically are they solving the problem.
• 31:55
  And then at that point, after that phase of work, we'll decide, do we wanna try to, to get representation for this?
• 32:02
  Do we wanna try to get you an agent and write a full-blown proposal?
• 32:06
  Meaning the traditional publishing route.
• 32:08
  Traditional publishing, right.
• 32:09
  Or do we wanna go directly to a publisher, which is another way to go.
• 32:12
  with the proposal and skip the agent altogether because that's sort of the way things are going, or does it make sense for us to look at independent publishing and hybrid publishing?
• 32:20
  And that's sort of like once you have the concept really, or I guess the blueprint really blown out in a w- a way that helps you with a outline or an annotated table of contents so you know what you're creating, then you kind of make the decision, okay, you know, am I gonna pay to produce this through a hybrid knowing that I get more on the back end, or am I gonna go for it and then know that maybe it'll kind of- And sometimes it's a faster cycle, right?
• 32:46
  Like the, like I've had- It's definitely a time to market is tr- is shorter, right?
• 32:50
  Yeah.
• 32:50
  But on to ability, I just talked to a publisher yesterday who is a hybrid publisher, and she said she's closing, she's already closed her 2027 list.
• 32:56
  Yep.
• 32:57
  Yep.
• 32:57
  I was introducing her to someone that I just started working with, so.
• 33:00
  I mean, the reputable ones, yes, are already booking out.
• 33:03
  But still, the process of querying, finding an agent, then submissions, it depends on your topic.
• 33:10
  Many of my clients will opt for hybrid if, for example, they have research that they're publishing that is- Mm-hmm … gonna be stale if they wait.
• 33:18
  Yep.
• 33:18
  So even, you know, 2027- Yeah, or, or even the- is not that far away, right?
• 33:22
  Right.
• 33:23
  Even your goals for what you wanna do with it.
• 33:24
  Like, if you're really looking at it as a brand piece and you're thinking, you're looking at the model where I buy the book, I give them to the place I wanna do the keynote.
• 33:35
  They maybe don't pay me, but they, they pay for the book.
• 33:38
  Like, if you- if that's the kind of model you're looking at, which is the way a lot of people move units in bulk orders, then, then you can do that through a hybrid, and maybe that makes more sense.
• 33:47
  'Cause the hybrid gives you the distribution that you really want, right?
• 33:49
  That, that it can get- Yeah … into the places it needs to get to.
• 33:52
  Awesome.
• 33:52
  Okay.
• 33:53
  How could investment in a ghostwriter actually change your experience publishing?
• 33:58
  'Cause I think we're talking about, like, all the different options.
• 34:00
  How does inve- I mean, certainly if you're hiring Marnie to do your proposal, your chances are going to increase that it will get picked up, correct?
• 34:10
  Yeah.
• 34:10
  I mean, that's the idea, right?
• 34:11
  Because we sort of know what, we know what agents are looking for.
• 34:15
  We know what publishers are looking for.
• 34:17
  We know what, um, your platform needs to be like in order to get that kind of interest.
• 34:22
  I mean, that's really a, that's a thing.
• 34:24
  So I think the investment, again, has to be a different look at ROI, right?
• 34:29
  You have to look at the return on that investment in a different way than just selling books.
• 34:33
  Because if you look at the, the numbers, I mean- 5,000 copies of a book in this space, uh, from a hybrid or from a traditional publisher for someone who is not famous is a good number.
• 34:47
  Yeah.
• 34:47
  It's a good number.
• 34:48
  5,000 is a good number.
• 34:50
  And in Canada, that would be, that would be considered bestseller status.
• 34:52
  Not in the States, but in Canada.
• 34:53
  So if you're looking to … It kind of depends on your goals, I think, right?
• 34:57
  How, how much can you invest?
• 34:59
  Where do you wanna invest it?
• 35:01
  How quickly do you want the book to get to market?
• 35:04
  What kind of a service are you looking for from your publisher?
• 35:07
  Like, do you wanna feel like they're taking care of you?
• 35:11
  Do you wanna be running with scissors on your own?
• 35:14
  Like, there's a lot of different ways to look at that.
• 35:16
  Try with scissors on your own.
• 35:18
  I don't think anybody should let me do that, ever.
• 35:20
  I mean, it does feel very … I mean, I've been on the inside of traditional publishing.
• 35:25
  Like, I've been on the client side of traditional publishing, and I've been hired by traditional publishers to edit, right?
• 35:30
  Both sides.
• 35:32
  And the experience as the client can vary based on who your, your project manager is on the inside of that.
• 35:37
  I mean, it's just, it's such a mixed bag, and it's just, it's hard to, to recreate what that looks like.
• 35:43
  But I think the takeaway here is if you're looking at ROI as number of speaking engagements or number of clients acquired versus number of books sold, you know, I think that's the- Yeah… calculations to make.
• 35:56
  It's the best book out there that you can put out there, and if you are not- Yeah… going to spend the time and energy it takes to learn the skill to become the surgeon, to become the writer yourself- Yeah then ghostwriting's, uh, actually an economical option, right?
• 36:10
  Rather than taking a year or five years to learn how to do it yourself, you're actually saving- Yeah … a lot.
• 36:17
  Okay.
• 36:18
  We're … Come to the quick-fire portion of- Okay.
• 36:21
  Awesome … of our, uh, segment here, and yours are gonna be a little bit different today, just for a change.
• 36:26
  Okay.
• 36:26
  So how long, Marnie, does it take you to ghostwrite a book on average?
• 36:32
  If the author is really, really engaged, nine months is like plus or minus nine months.
• 36:37
  Yeah.
• 36:38
  Usually it's a year.
• 36:39
  You get, you get a year.
• 36:40
  The, the deadline is the publisher's when it goes to the publisher, that's the deadline you're working towards.
• 36:44
  Typical is a year.
• 36:45
  Okay.
• 36:46
  Yeah.
• 36:46
  Awesome.
• 36:46
  Okay, so I know- And yes, it's always a scramble at the very end.
• 36:48
  There's always the scramble at the end every time.
• 36:51
  Yeah, I believe that, 'cause you probably aren't getting all the feedback from the publisher until they start to realize it's coming up, and then you might have to change things.
• 36:57
  The author too isn't really paying attention- Yeah … till they're like,"Oh my gosh, it's really due." Yeah.
• 37:02
  Nine, yeah.
• 37:02
  I, the amount of, like, missing my flight anxiety dreams I've had in the deadline period of time when we, we owe something to the publisher and we're not done yet is, like, a lot of, a lot of anxiety dreams.
• 37:14
  So I know that you can't disclose details, but can you give us- Yeah … one, you know, really vague detail about a satisfying project or something that you're super proud of?
• 37:25
  So I worked with a very famous behavioral scientist on a project.
• 37:31
  Um, it was co-authored with another scientist, and I liked the subject matter so much because it's what I describe as the intersection of woo woo and data, right?
• 37:44
  Like, the things that you know in your body are true and real and meaningful, but they're proven out through science.
• 37:52
  So, like, people can't really poo poo your woo woo because, because you have, like, a famous, you have a famous behavioral scientist telling you that it's real.
• 38:02
  Um- I love it … so I'm really proud of that project, and I did have to sign a very stringent NDA, but that's, you know, that's, this is a New York Times bestselling author that's been up there for a long time.
• 38:11
  So it's been really, it's, that was really rewarding, and I'll never see the light of day for that, but that was great.
• 38:16
  It was great to be part of.
• 38:17
  Oh, that's amazing.
• 38:18
  So in closing, Marnie, what's your best advice for those listeners out there who are considering writing a book and h- hiring a ghostwriter for a nonfiction perspective?
• 38:28
  Okay.
• 38:29
  Um, my number one advice to those people is this: read, read, read in the genre that you wanna write.
• 38:38
  And that will do two things for you.
• 38:39
  Number one, it will allow you to tell the ghostwriter, "This is what I'm going toward. This is what I want to achieve at the end of this. Let's get … That's how I define success, this level of content." But if you're writing it yourself, you have to know what you're writing.
• 38:53
  So please read in your genre, even, whatever it is, just read.
• 38:56
  That's how writers become writers.
• 38:57
  We read.
• 38:58
  We read a lot.
• 38:59
  We read, and read it with a critical eye.
• 39:02
  Totally.
• 39:02
  And, you know, pay attention to the vibe, but also notice what are they physically doing?
• 39:06
  What are in these chapters?
• 39:08
  'Cause I, it's amazing to me how few people actually process that, and then when they look at it, it's pretty obvious what's actually happening.
• 39:15
  Amazing.
• 39:16
  Okay.
• 39:16
  Thank you so much for coming on today.
• 39:18
  Thank you so much.
• 39:19
  That was fun.
• 39:19
  Where can we find you and your amazing services?
• 39:23
  I'm at www.marniseneker, M-A-R-N-I-S-E-N-E-K-E-R .com, or LinkedIn.
• 39:32
  Amazing.
• 39:33
  All right.
• 39:33
  Thanks for coming on the show.
• 39:34
  We'll have to have you on again sometime.
• 39:36
  Thank you.
• 39:37
  I'd love that.
• 39:38
  So good to see you.
• 39:45
  Thanks for tuning in to the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Fadori.
• 39:49
  It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or the book that you're planning to write.
• 39:56
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• 40:00
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• 40:09
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• 40:12
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• 40:26
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• 40:27
  Submit a page of your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes.
• 40:33
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• 40:43
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• 40:44
  Remember, that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
• 40:55
  See you again right here next week