Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 347. CO2 Control Tips with Paul Shannon from Loblaw Energy

Transcript

Episode 347. CO2 Control Tips with Paul Shannon from Loblaw Energy · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: Welcome to the Refrigeration Min podcast. I'm your host, Trevor Matthews, and super excited that you're here Again. I love chatting with you. I love the responses, all the emails coming in, the social media love. I really appreciate that because I know the guests that I have on here, the conversation we have or making a difference out there, and this is what I love to, to see, is that if we can help uplift one person.
• 0:01
  When I was in the field, I was doing service, I was doing install with them and they've came a, they came a long way too because one of the pioneers of CO2, 'cause Loblaws was definitely one of the first. Change in Canada to start to try out CO2. I remember working when I worked at NE Ends, I was working at the, I think it was the Air Canada Center and they turned it over into a Loblaws and that was a secondary over feed system.
• 0:02
  Paul: Good. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Trevor. Man, it glad I could come and help.
• 0:03
  I would say. Once you kind of know, okay, these are my standard pressures, these are what I'm looking at. Much like your dx, standard DX or x-ray. Once you kinda use, you're used to those pressures and you understand them. And what they represent. Then you get that familiar, familiar, eh, I can't say the word, familiarity with how, how the system works and how it's supposed to operate.
• 0:04
  It was like 10, $20 an hour helper kind of thing, furnace guy. So at the time, Calgary was booming, so I, I flew out there kind of stationed myself. I worked for a company called DSL. I dunno if you've heard of them before. They work in the food service side, so like we do like all the seven elevens McDonald's from like the fryers to the walk-in coolers.
• 0:05
  It was more money went over there. Right away worked on a construction site and I remember I was driving in with the site foreman at the time and he is like, if I can give you one piece of advice, it's ask lots of questions, which is probably the wrong thing to say to me at the time. So I got in, was looking right away at the rack.
• 0:06
  So that really helped me get on the control side. And then from there, I kinda moved back to Ontario, got stuck on construction for a bit, which isn't bad. Because if you can understand how to build it and service it, then you can control it, right? Yeah. But I always was pushing. Then when I eventually got into service, that's when I always took like the Microthermal calls, the Copeland calls, the Danfoss calls, right?
• 0:07
  Yeah. Anyone listen right now, you could do that same thing. It's putting that effort in there and it wasn't easy for you. ? It wasn't just like, oh, here, all of a sudden, you know, all this control stuff you put the work in, right? Let's learn it. Ask questions. If the people that you're working with don't really know, then you find other people to to know, teach you, or you figure it out yourself, you know?
• 0:08
  So like my first full on job. On my own was the a CO2 store that I had, I didn't really, hadn't worked on. So I was going through the PNID drawings. I'm going through all the IO lists, trying to figure out how things work at that time. We, I went to site, I went through the rack, ran through how everything works, did a lot of research on how the rack operates, how it works, used the OEM, asked lots of questions.
• 0:09
  Technicians put the work in now. ? Absolutely. Because it's paying off now, because now when the issue arises, you may have seen it already. So it's that much quicker to solve the problem, more helping somebody else out.
• 0:10
  And the first step is I say, you gotta understand refrigeration. But like, not the fundamental, you gotta understand the components in a, just a standard HFC rack, how it works, the flow. Understand what a p and ID and I like that you said that this is. This is a decade ago going into the p and ID and I still talk to people today.
• 0:11
  So when, when technicians first start to work on CO2, one is understanding refrigeration at one, but what are some of like the, the key sequence or logic points that you want to help them truly understand what they're working on? Re really, 'cause like you said, you can't troubleshoot a refrigeration system.
• 0:12
  Trevor: Yeah, so let's talk about that. That would be one. Yeah, I think that's good. Let's talk about that a little bit, a a few scenarios. So you said SLA alarm for, so those who doesn't, don't know what that mean. What do you mean by that?
• 0:13
  High low is the, is the receiver or reservoir level staying high constantly? If so, you probably know you have a, some kind of blockage in your filtration of your oil system. Yeah, that's kind of where I would start with that and then work from there.
• 0:14
  Paul: You would check your oh, that's a good that one I would probably look more so for. No oil return, that means you're not separating properly. So is your high discharge temperatures is, is the rest of the system operating? Then you're going back towards the other side of the system to see what's happening on your high side.
• 0:15
  So, so that's really good. So your first step is understanding the oil system, oil management, and there's different ones out there. Absolutely. So you the absolutely depressurization one where you got a valve where it'll reduce the pressure you got solenoid and time. So it could be open for 60 seconds, close for 30 seconds or 10 seconds and five seconds.
• 0:16
  If you have a serial AA valve, et cetera, making sure those are programmed right. Making sure your steps are right. Making sure all your sensors are accurate, transducers are accurate. If any of those are out, then your whole super heat, everything else is gonna be outta calibration and you're gonna start having big swings.
• 0:17
  So if you're getting like a OM reading or you're getting your DC voltage reading on yours. IP, depending on what you're using. Yeah, that's kind of one of the big things I would say. Guys get very overwhelmed quickly with the networking side. So if it's done properly and you have the proper the proper network infrastructure, then that will really be as assistance to your service techs or upcoming control tech.
• 0:18
  So if we can have all that done and we have it all built for the end user, then they have the best chance of troubleshooting should there be any kind of network issue, breaking wire, et cetera. Yeah, that's a huge part of it, to be honest with
• 0:19
  If you do have a broken wire, where's it at? What are some, is that one of the, kind of the biggest ones when a technician come in, there's a communication or a networking issue? What are some of those things? Because they do, like, even me, I would get overwhelmed, you know, with, with going in there. But what are some of the other things that you've seen where technicians could probably go and look at that map?
• 0:20
  If it's star, then you kind of have to figure out, okay, look at my map again. Okay, it comes down here, and then you should be able to kind of pinpoint what the issue is. More than likely it's a pinched wire or. Some, something else is happening. Broke alarm somewhere.
• 0:21
  Yeah, I've seen that before. Pull down networks or like there's a break in the wire somewhere and you're getting, pulling in that resistance. So yeah. I love that. That's it's good. It's little stuff like that you need to know, right. The little inner workings. And both Copeland and Microthermal do a good job now of putting some helpful hints.
• 0:22
  Paul: Absolutely. And especially if you're in like a on call thing or it's two in the morning and you don't wanna wake up that person, it's kind of has that information right
• 0:23
  Paul: First thing, breathe. Take a break. Take your step. Honestly. Take a step out of the machine room for five minutes. Re, re, re reget yourself back in where, in your mind, frame where you want to be, and then go back in. Make sure you, oh, oh, the CO2, you check all your pressures, check your flow, check your graphs, like you said.
• 0:24
  You probably, you still have them now, but you don't actually physically probably write them down. But when I'm doing a training or a CO2 training, I'm like, you gotta have a debt checklist. What. You talk to the store manager, ? Then you go in and talk to the, the deli manager, wherever the problem is.
• 0:25
  So what are some of the things that we can help them to, to avoid some of these mistakes? May maybe within the control side too, because a lot of people think, and I've seen. They want to go and change controls to fix a mechanical problem. And I don't know if you've seen a lot of that as well. Not so
• 0:26
  Like some of them have strainers in them, some of them have strainers upstream of the high pressure valve and like, just even knowing that. And sometimes there's a, a strainer in the valve and one upstream of the valve and some don't have strainers. So what are some of the tips that you talk about when you're teaching high pressure in the bypass valve?
• 0:27
  Why does this one have it, right? Yeah, but it's it because it needs it and it needs the work because this is how the thermodynamics work on the CO2 rack, right? Understanding that and understanding the differences is huge for them. Right? And that's. That's one of the things we push a lot. And then using what the OEMs give you as a base is huge too.
• 0:28
  Trevor: Denmark. Yeah. And I like that. I like that you, you say that because you're, you're an expert at this, ?
• 0:29
  And not to say there isn't control issues, but it's always a control problem to start, right. Think about the fundamentals before you go back to start picking apart like board points or or programming. Like if it, like you said, if it's worked for two years, chances are it's not a programming issue. If's something that's happened that's caused this to sensors would be another one.
• 0:30
  Or like you said, they're overwhelmed and they're not, they're not you. They have the knowledge. Yeah, they just aren't using it because they're overwhelmed in that moment. 'cause it's a CO2 rack and before they even got there, they're like, I don't know how I'm gonna figure this out. But they're smart enough and they all know the fundamentals and they can get through it.
• 0:31
  Trevor, it took me two and a half hours where usually it'll take me 45 minutes to an hour, but I did it, ? And all that fear, just K kinda went away. You know, and they were able to do it, and they were, they were, they surprised themselves. But I think it was just that hurdle to get over that to walk you through.
• 0:32
  What are your thoughts? What are, what's gonna bridge that, do you believe from that? Just the, the field work now into more of a control mindset.
• 0:33
  That's the one thing that no one ever touches on either. If you have an HVAC system that's not performing properly, your grocery store in your refrigeration is going to be. Directly infected by that, right? Like I, it, it's insane of, of the pressurization in buildings, in summertimes you probably see it more 'cause you talk to more American people.
• 0:34
  It's massive for the end user. 'cause you're not, you're not having your blinders on, now. You're open to the entire ecosystem of the store. It's massive. Yeah. And I think that's something that's gonna help the younger technicians as, 'cause they're gonna see it more, right? They're gonna have that direct integration Now f from all aspects, from the case level, the rack level, the electronic valve level, and or HVAC now.
• 0:35
  Trevor: Yeah. I think the big thing is though, and 'cause I talked to people about this, it's understanding what those, those data points mean, you know? Yeah. That's fair.
• 0:36
  The only time I thought of like the, the stores, when the antis sweats weren't working, all of a sudden the glass doors were sweating. You know what mean? Yep. But now it's a big deal. We have these integrated systems, hvac CO2 systems that are doing the HVAC at the same time. You know, absolutely. They're doing heat reclaim, they're doing water reclaim, and now we got a, a more in tuned system and I think getting, understanding the load, I like, I like that.
• 0:37
  Trevor: Yeah. And I like that you, you bring that up. 'cause that's another thing that we don't think about.
• 0:38
  I see the Advanced Refrigeration podcast seems to be huge for a lot of people. It gives a lot of great knowledge to technicians. I do lots of reading. Always stay on top of like what's happening. I bug the OEMs we use all the time. Even call the OEMs, have good conversations with them. I obviously you can't do that if you're just, if you don't have those relationships, but they put a lot on their websites.
• 0:39
  Those little things like that, and people will be like, well that input isn't on that board. How are you doing that? Right? It's simple little things like that that you learn over time and experience. Copeland does it too, right? You have the global, global touch where you can take a point from one controller to another as long as they're networked.
• 0:40
  And, and that's it. It's setting, setting that goal for the controls too. 'cause it, it might be hard now, like my good friend Andrew Freeberg, like a year ago, he is like, Trevor, I wanna get into controls. I wanna learn EMS more. He set that goal and now that's what he's doing. ? So he's taking all the calls and he is like, well, I don't know how to fix all of it, but I want to take every one of those calls.