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Issue 387: Leaving Lothal Alone · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
0:06
Speaker 2: Hi. This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
0:10
Speaker 2: the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
0:14
Speaker 2: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
0:23
Speaker 3: You have indeed landed at Aggressive Negotiations your stop in
0:27
Speaker 3: the Star Wars galaxy. That is your gateway to all
0:30
Speaker 3: of the things that you wanted to ask but maybe
0:33
Speaker 3: we're afraid to or maybe just never realize that other
0:36
Speaker 3: people out there are thinking them too. I'm Jedi Master
0:39
Speaker 3: John Mills. I'm a humble host here on Aggressive Negotiations,
0:42
Speaker 3: and joining me on this journey of discovery is the
0:45
Speaker 3: illustrious Jedi Master Matthew Rushing. Matt, we have one hum
0:49
Speaker 3: dinger of a topic tonight that I can't believe we
0:52
Speaker 3: haven't hit on before. Are you ready to dive deep
0:55
Speaker 3: and really get at the core of a question that's
0:58
Speaker 3: never been answered in Star Wars lore?
1:00
Speaker 1: Well, I totally am.
1:03
Speaker 4: You know, I'm glad everybody's listening before we hit our topic.
1:08
Speaker 4: Just to remind everybody, you know, you can follow us
1:11
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1:13
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1:14
Speaker 4: We're at the Jedi Masters, the entire network at Joint
1:17
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1:21
Speaker 4: We're on Instagram at the nerd Party in nerd Party
1:23
Speaker 4: dot com. You can find us as well with all
1:25
Speaker 4: the shows going on there on the network, So we
1:27
Speaker 4: hope everybody will join us there. So, John, what is
1:33
Speaker 4: this most excellent topic?
1:37
Speaker 3: Well, I just finished rewatching Star Wars Rebels. It's my
1:41
Speaker 3: third view through, I guess by this point or so,
1:46
Speaker 3: you know, just like a beginning to finish view through.
1:48
Speaker 3: I was introducing my youngest to it, and she took
1:51
Speaker 3: to it. It's proven to be her gateway drug to
1:54
Speaker 3: Star Wars finally, and so that's that's been a fun thing.
1:58
Speaker 3: But I have you now, Yeah, right, But that beautiful
2:02
Speaker 3: moment at the end where we get the little epilogue,
2:05
Speaker 3: the coda where Sabine is narrating that you know how
2:10
Speaker 3: things are after Ezra and Thron have disappeared with the Pergol,
2:17
Speaker 3: and in that epilogue she says the Empire never came
2:23
Speaker 3: back to Lothal, never acted in retribution for what had happened. Now,
2:30
Speaker 3: given that we know that Rebels ends one full year
2:35
Speaker 3: before the Battle of Yavin the original Star Wars, I
2:40
Speaker 3: just wanted to ask why do you think the Empire
2:44
Speaker 3: never came back and smashed lethal So.
2:48
Speaker 4: My first thought is that with Thron being a Grand
2:54
Speaker 4: Admiral and having his own fleet, that means that, you know,
3:00
Speaker 4: he kind of has his own preview of what he
3:04
Speaker 4: wants to do and where he wants to go. And
3:06
Speaker 4: does that necessarily mean that he is always reporting in
3:10
Speaker 4: as to where he is and what he's doing and why.
3:15
Speaker 4: So I'm wondering, does Thwan go to La Thal with
3:19
Speaker 4: his fleet and then he just disappears and nobody in
3:23
Speaker 4: the Empire really knows where or why. And then of course,
3:29
Speaker 4: you know, you think a year later, you know, you
3:32
Speaker 4: have the first death Star destroyed, and it does seem
3:36
Speaker 4: as though the Empire gets very fixated on destroying this
3:40
Speaker 4: rebellion and so a lost grand admiral and you know,
3:46
Speaker 4: his own mini fleet doesn't seem to be the top
3:50
Speaker 4: on their priority list of you know, what to find,
3:54
Speaker 4: And so to me, that's the first thing that kind
3:57
Speaker 4: of pops into my mind as to why l Thal.
4:02
Speaker 1: Is safe.
4:06
Speaker 4: Also, you know, the thought was the was the place
4:10
Speaker 4: where Thron was, you know, doing his tie Defender project,
4:16
Speaker 4: right and so, and that never took off with the
4:21
Speaker 4: Empire either. So it's like I feel like the Empire
4:26
Speaker 4: just kind of chalks it up to, ah, well that
4:28
Speaker 4: was a loss. We move on, you know, because it's
4:32
Speaker 4: like one grand admiral, you know, we got we got dozens, Okay.
4:38
Speaker 3: I mean I would think that the Empire would have
4:42
Speaker 3: the bureaucratic machine of the Empire would have been hardwired
4:46
Speaker 3: to punish a system that had gotten out of line
4:48
Speaker 3: as badly as Lothal did. Like, in my head, they
4:52
Speaker 3: have a military that it wouldn't take tremendous effort for
4:57
Speaker 3: them to come back and smack with all around. Sure,
5:01
Speaker 3: Now the counterpoint piggybacking off what you're talking about there,
5:04
Speaker 3: the Empire might have been afraid to come back to
5:06
Speaker 3: Lethal because their greatest strategists, their greatest tactician, their greatest
5:12
Speaker 3: grand admiral disappears and he's gone, and that's got to
5:19
Speaker 3: be terrifying. Like you could almost see a comedy routine
5:23
Speaker 3: of Oh, who's going to go find Grand Admiral Throng,
5:26
Speaker 3: Who's going to go to Lethal? No, I have an assignment,
5:29
Speaker 3: I got it. I can't go there. Oh no, my
5:31
Speaker 3: start destroyer is getting cleaned that day. I can't make it.
5:34
Speaker 3: But joking aside, you have something else, I think, because
5:39
Speaker 3: while you were talking this sort of popped in my head.
5:41
Speaker 3: Let me ask you a series of questions here. The
5:44
Speaker 3: Empire is an extension of whose will, of whose desires?
5:50
Speaker 3: Sidious right h with thal happens. He's tried to bait
5:56
Speaker 3: Ezra into turning to the dark side, It's true, yeah,
6:01
Speaker 3: and failed. Yes, And we can easily see that as
6:05
Speaker 3: that dysfunctional sith thing where he sees Ezra as a
6:09
Speaker 3: potential way to destroy Vader, who's a disappointment as an apprentice,
6:15
Speaker 3: and take his rightful place. But then the Emperor realizes,
6:21
Speaker 3: especially after the Battle of Yavin, what does he realize?
6:26
Speaker 3: What does he find out? What a Vader and the
6:28
Speaker 3: Emperor find out Luke? Yeah, do you think it's as
6:32
Speaker 3: simple as lethal? Was a loss? Ezra cost them throng?
6:40
Speaker 3: The planet itself was not a great threat after that,
6:45
Speaker 3: and their focus simply was Luke, and so it wasn't
6:48
Speaker 3: worth their time. They had a better spend of resources.
6:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
6:52
Speaker 4: You know, it's funny because as you were saying that,
6:55
Speaker 4: I was like, well, I that makes sense, because you know,
6:58
Speaker 4: what is Palpatine really care about Palpatine's machinations are really
7:04
Speaker 4: all about him finding a way to keep his own power.
7:08
Speaker 4: And so therefore, yes, with Ezra gone and then Luke
7:12
Speaker 4: popping up his his goals do seem to shift in
7:19
Speaker 4: the sense of I'm not here building the empire anymore.
7:23
Speaker 4: I'm not even trying to maintain necessarily empire anymore. I'm
7:26
Speaker 4: trying to make sure that my reign lasts forever, and
7:32
Speaker 4: the best way to do that is through making sure
7:34
Speaker 4: that I have an apprentice that is better than Vader.
7:38
Speaker 4: And you know, who knows where Ezra went, who knows
7:43
Speaker 4: where Thron went, But it's not worth looking for him
7:46
Speaker 4: when I've got this other dude who is super powerful
7:51
Speaker 4: and I know it and I know their lineage, and
7:56
Speaker 4: this could be the guy. I mean, this could be
7:58
Speaker 4: you know, Vader two point zero, and that's really what
8:03
Speaker 4: he wants. And so I think I think that really
8:06
Speaker 4: hits on something there as to why Lathall then is saved,
8:15
Speaker 4: and and it also goes to show too, it's like
8:18
Speaker 4: by Ezra making the sacrificial choice that is part of
8:22
Speaker 4: the salvation, because if he was still there, I can't
8:26
Speaker 4: imagine Lathal survives.
8:28
Speaker 3: They keep coming, they keep coming after him, and ye yep.
8:32
Speaker 3: And additionally, I mean, let's layer this one on. What
8:35
Speaker 3: do they lose in the pursuit of Ezra. They lose
8:38
Speaker 3: that Jedi temple that was a doorway to the world
8:41
Speaker 3: between Worlds, which we know Palpatine desperately wants to get into.
8:45
Speaker 1: Yes he does, yep, So maybe they.
8:48
Speaker 3: Look at it and again the Emperor runs the Empire.
8:52
Speaker 3: My lord, we have to go and punish la Thal. No,
8:55
Speaker 3: it's not worth our time, and it's literally not worth
8:58
Speaker 3: his time because of one thing he was looking for.
9:00
Speaker 3: There is gone forever besides Ezra. Even with Ezra out
9:05
Speaker 3: of the mix. Yeah, there's no point. It's just over with.
9:10
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, maybe it's just as straightforward as
9:13
Speaker 3: Lethal just wasn't worth it. But let me layer one
9:16
Speaker 3: last question on then, and this is the part where
9:21
Speaker 3: if you've if you've hung with us, I'm gonna throw
9:24
Speaker 3: the controversial question. The Rebel Alliance has scored its first
9:28
Speaker 3: victory against the Empire in the title crawl of the
9:31
Speaker 3: original Star Wars and then leader in Rogue one, we
9:34
Speaker 3: see that victory. Yeah, why does Lethal not count as
9:39
Speaker 3: the Rebel Alliance victory? Against the Empire.
9:44
Speaker 4: I think it's a victory, but it's also very small
9:48
Speaker 4: regional victory. You know, it's one planet, right, but the
9:55
Speaker 4: loss of the technological marvel that is the Death Star
10:01
Speaker 4: looms large, right all pun intended, uh And so I
10:08
Speaker 4: think what we see is that the victory on le
10:12
Speaker 4: Thal does allow somebody like Hara then to be involved
10:18
Speaker 4: with the rest of the rebellion for the rest of
10:21
Speaker 4: the you know, it's time. We know that that Hara
10:26
Speaker 4: was at Yavin because Chopper was there, and so was
10:30
Speaker 4: the ghost at and Rogue one, and we heard her
10:35
Speaker 4: name being called, you know, we we know that that
10:39
Speaker 4: she was all over the place, right we and and
10:42
Speaker 4: makes it all the way past Return of the Jedi.
10:45
Speaker 4: And so I think in some ways that probably would
10:50
Speaker 4: become a story that was told too people who are
10:56
Speaker 4: joining the rebellion, or maybe they would have heard about
11:00
Speaker 4: the victory on La Thal, right, and that would be
11:04
Speaker 4: something that then they would be hopeful for for.
11:07
Speaker 1: Their own planet one day.
11:08
Speaker 4: Obviously, the baseline answer is because we didn't know until
11:13
Speaker 4: you know, But I do think lethal becomes one of
11:17
Speaker 4: those stories then where people hear it and they're immediately
11:22
Speaker 4: drawn to the idea of if they can do it,
11:26
Speaker 4: then we can do it, but we do it together,
11:28
Speaker 4: because that's kind of the story of rebels, right is
11:32
Speaker 4: this band coming together and they defeat a larger force.
11:38
Speaker 1: That's what happens, you know.
11:40
Speaker 4: Obviously in all of the Original Trilogy g movies and
11:43
Speaker 4: all of the stories we've read that take place in
11:48
Speaker 4: the Original Trilogy era. And so I think Leathal probably
11:54
Speaker 4: in the Rebellion, would have become a story told, you know,
12:00
Speaker 4: especially since Hara becomes a major leader in it.
12:05
Speaker 3: And so I mean, I think I think it is
12:08
Speaker 3: as simple as that. It's that semantics thing which Star
12:11
Speaker 3: Wars excels at. Yeah, from a certain point of view,
12:15
Speaker 3: But I do think it boils down to something as
12:18
Speaker 3: simple as the rebel Alliance proper did not send support
12:24
Speaker 3: to lethal you hit on it. I think where it's
12:28
Speaker 3: a regional victory. So there were little pockets of resistance
12:33
Speaker 3: popping up everywhere, but there was a formal rebel alliance.
12:38
Speaker 3: We never count any of saw Guerrera's victories because he's
12:42
Speaker 3: not part of the rebel alliance. He's just saw Guerrera
12:46
Speaker 3: doing his thang. Yes, and so yes, I think it
12:52
Speaker 3: is like you said it's a regional victory. It's semantics
12:55
Speaker 3: the rebel alliance proper. These were rebels, but it was
12:58
Speaker 3: not the rebel ends. It was lethal itself that was
13:03
Speaker 3: doing what needed to be done. Yeah, with a little
13:06
Speaker 3: assistance from the force and some really awesome wolves and
13:11
Speaker 3: one fantastic droid that I gotta tell you after this rewatch.
13:16
Speaker 3: As much as I love R two and I will
13:18
Speaker 3: always adore our two, Chopper will forever hold a number
13:22
Speaker 3: one spot in my heart, at least for a time,
13:24
Speaker 3: because Chopper is pretty awesome.
13:26
Speaker 4: The other I mean, I think the cool thing about
13:29
Speaker 4: this is when you think about Lathol, you think about
13:32
Speaker 4: its place in the history of the rebellion, it does
13:37
Speaker 4: lead me to wonder, you know, what are all of
13:39
Speaker 4: the other stories of the other regions, of the other
13:42
Speaker 4: people who end up joining the rebellion, who are able
13:45
Speaker 4: to be successful. And you know, because Lathal is one
13:49
Speaker 4: small part of that story, right, they're one microcosm of
13:55
Speaker 4: the larger saga that's happening at that point. And I
13:59
Speaker 4: think that's a really neat thing. And it also just
14:02
Speaker 4: kind of reminds us of the fact that, you know,
14:05
Speaker 4: in history, there are all of these. You know, there
14:08
Speaker 4: are major events that happen, right, but when you read
14:12
Speaker 4: a history book, say about World War Two, or you
14:16
Speaker 4: read a history book about the American Revolution or any
14:21
Speaker 4: of these things, right, any of these major conflicts that
14:23
Speaker 4: have happened around the world. There are major events, but
14:26
Speaker 4: then there are all of the little events that lead
14:29
Speaker 4: to the major events, and they're just as important in
14:33
Speaker 4: the story as everything else. And so that's I think
14:38
Speaker 4: the beauty of that as well is that it allows
14:41
Speaker 4: us to have explored one of the facets that went
14:44
Speaker 4: into beating the Empire. And it wasn't just you know,
14:48
Speaker 4: Luke destroying the Death Star or what Princess Leah did
14:52
Speaker 4: or Han did. It's all these other people, which you know,
14:55
Speaker 4: I think is also the story that we're getting an
14:58
Speaker 4: and or right, and what we got in Road one.
15:02
Speaker 4: There are so many people that are involved in the
15:06
Speaker 4: defeat of the Empire whose names we don't know and
15:09
Speaker 4: we'll never know. In Star Wars, you know, when we
15:12
Speaker 4: think of it as a true historical thing, which is
15:15
Speaker 4: you know that with Lucas, you know, creating Star Wars
15:18
Speaker 4: as it was as if you know, documentary type of
15:23
Speaker 4: filmmaking like that I think that's just really cool, and
15:27
Speaker 4: so I think it makes then it makes it really neat,
15:35
Speaker 4: you know. And I think of Rebels in the fact
15:37
Speaker 4: that it started off kind of and it felt like
15:40
Speaker 4: very much a Disney mandated thing. They had their grip
15:44
Speaker 4: on it, tight of what they wanted, and slowly but
15:47
Speaker 4: surely it gets turned into something that becomes pivotal and meaningful.
15:54
Speaker 3: Core piece of law exactly, absolutely core piece of low.
15:58
Speaker 3: And I couldn't be more delighted that if you had
16:02
Speaker 3: given me a time machine and you go back to
16:05
Speaker 3: when Rebels premieres, because I remember when it premiered and
16:10
Speaker 3: you said, this is going to be somebody's gateway to
16:13
Speaker 3: Star Wars, this is what's going to help make them
16:16
Speaker 3: even if it's a casual fan, a fan of some sort,
16:20
Speaker 3: I would have laughed at you. Yeah, I would have
16:22
Speaker 3: been so skeptical, like, please, that's not even I've did,
16:25
Speaker 3: you know, for Pete's sake, Like these characters are obviously
16:29
Speaker 3: just drawn from the original sketches and stuff like that.
16:32
Speaker 3: And now I wasn't showing outward disrespect to Rebels on
16:36
Speaker 3: that level. I'm exaggerating for effect, But I think the
16:40
Speaker 3: simple fact that rebels itself, which is a property people
16:45
Speaker 3: might forget. It is a property that people were not
16:49
Speaker 3: in the fan base in love with at first. Just
16:53
Speaker 3: like while she's a treasured character now people had a
16:56
Speaker 3: lot of trouble with Ahsoka and get them used to
16:59
Speaker 3: her at first. It's just you just turning up the
17:02
Speaker 3: temperature just a little bit. You just let people get there,
17:05
Speaker 3: You show them the way with good storytelling, and they'll
17:07
Speaker 3: get there. And I'm just delighted actually that this is
17:11
Speaker 3: a discussion about rebels because it's been a decade and
17:17
Speaker 3: here we are, we're talking about it. Because it winds
17:22
Speaker 3: up that it's peaked Star Wars in a lot of ways. Yeah,
17:25
Speaker 3: and so grateful for it that in its four seasons,
17:30
Speaker 3: four short seasons, it made this type of impact on
17:35
Speaker 3: the storytelling and the fan base and then winds up
17:37
Speaker 3: opening everything up so that we can jump past Return
17:41
Speaker 3: of the Jedi to explore Ahsoka and the world between
17:44
Speaker 3: Worlds and Anakin's ghost.
17:46
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, come on, yeah, all right, man, Yeah.
17:50
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you just said it so well
17:54
Speaker 4: on One of the things that I think we hit
17:55
Speaker 4: on so much in the show, and we do it
17:58
Speaker 4: on purpose, is because the animation is a core part
18:02
Speaker 4: of Star Wars storytelling and it deserves more respect.
18:06
Speaker 1: Uh.
18:06
Speaker 4: It does not deserve to be the Rodney Dangerfield of
18:10
Speaker 4: Star Wars. And because it's not, because, like you said,
18:15
Speaker 4: Rebels has added core parts of the saga. Clone Wars
18:22
Speaker 4: did that, Bad Batch has done that, you know. And
18:25
Speaker 4: so these shows, I mean, you know, uh tells the Empire,
18:30
Speaker 4: tells the Jedi.
18:31
Speaker 3: Uh.
18:31
Speaker 4: These are all things to which are telling good, important stories.
18:37
Speaker 1: Uh.
18:37
Speaker 4: And it deserves our respect and it deserves our love.
18:40
Speaker 4: And so yeah, I mean, here's to hoping that you know,
18:45
Speaker 4: we get more uh Star Wars animation and that they
18:49
Speaker 4: finally give us the animation we don't have yet on
18:52
Speaker 4: home release in four K.
18:55
Speaker 3: So yeah, four K, four k UHD discs please, you
19:00
Speaker 3: know what, In fact, let me pitch this idea on
19:03
Speaker 3: our way out the door. Disney Plus, you want to
19:05
Speaker 3: win back a ton of subscribers. You get one free
19:09
Speaker 3: home video release in four K each year. You give
19:13
Speaker 3: a little gift to people for being on there, Like
19:17
Speaker 3: make it a certain tier where it's like, oh you
19:19
Speaker 3: know what, you pay an extra five bucks you're in
19:22
Speaker 3: this tier. I mean, the Star Wars fan club used
19:24
Speaker 3: to do that. I used to get little little gifts
19:27
Speaker 3: in the mail every so often that were just like, hey,
19:29
Speaker 3: thanks for being a fan. It's like, yep, well got.
19:32
Speaker 4: Maybe you make it something that you can only buy
19:34
Speaker 4: through the Disney Plus store.
19:37
Speaker 3: Exactly right.
19:38
Speaker 4: You got to be subscribed to be a part of
19:40
Speaker 4: Disney Plus Store. I'm just saying, you know.
19:42
Speaker 3: Well, just like that's how That's how Target got my
19:45
Speaker 3: Episode two soundtrack money was there. There was a track
19:48
Speaker 3: actually one of the best tracks from the entire score
19:52
Speaker 3: the Factory Adventure, like the score, the original score. It
19:57
Speaker 3: was on the Target edition of the soundtrack, and I
19:59
Speaker 3: was like, well, I love that track. Of course I'm
20:00
Speaker 3: going to buy that. I loved listening to it because kids,
20:03
Speaker 3: you couldn't always stream that easily. Just gonna put that
20:06
Speaker 3: out there.
20:06
Speaker 4: It was true.
20:07
Speaker 3: It was very difficult. Don't come at me with that
20:09
Speaker 3: naster nonsense. The compression rates were terrible on there. It's
20:13
Speaker 3: just dumb. But anyway, Matt, you know, if people want
20:17
Speaker 3: to talk about anything from compression rates to their own
20:20
Speaker 3: thoughts about why the empire left with all alone, where
20:23
Speaker 3: can they find you online?
20:25
Speaker 4: Yeah, hit me up on social media. If I'm on
20:28
Speaker 4: the platform, you'll find me on the name Matt Rushing
20:30
Speaker 4: zero two. You also find me, of course here on
20:32
Speaker 4: the network with a completed show called Owlpost about every
20:35
Speaker 4: single chapter the Harry Potter series. You also find me
20:38
Speaker 4: over on the TFM network with the six of two Club,
20:41
Speaker 4: which is a general geek show talking about all of
20:43
Speaker 4: the franchises we love, and a lot of great star
20:45
Speaker 4: trek talk over there as well. So I hope that
20:48
Speaker 4: you will look that up over at trek dot FM.
20:50
Speaker 4: But John, if people wanted to catch up with you
20:53
Speaker 4: and see how you're doing, and maybe you know how
20:59
Speaker 4: you're a luthel is doing your loath cat where people
21:03
Speaker 4: find you.
21:03
Speaker 3: You know, loath cats are awesome. But I can tell
21:06
Speaker 3: you that my daughter and I both love loath wolves too. Really, yes,
21:12
Speaker 3: I want a loath wolf. Don't want to bite me though,
21:15
Speaker 3: a little scared of that part of it. But you
21:17
Speaker 3: can find me out there musing about such adorable creatures
21:21
Speaker 3: and powerful creatures as Kessel Junkie on your social network
21:25
Speaker 3: of choice. I'm not on many of them. Just look
21:28
Speaker 3: for me if I'm there, love to talk to you,
21:31
Speaker 3: And of course you can find me here on the
21:33
Speaker 3: Network where I am one of three hosts on a
21:37
Speaker 3: show called house Lights, where we look at the work
21:39
Speaker 3: of directors and sometimes we torture each other with directors
21:43
Speaker 3: that we don't all love, but we also delight each
21:47
Speaker 3: other with directors that we learn to love along the way.
21:50
Speaker 3: So why don't you join us over there. We have
21:53
Speaker 3: a lot of fun. But Master Rushing, I gotta tell you,
21:56
Speaker 3: I have found that the Temple Archives have actually located
22:03
Speaker 3: four K discs of the original episodes of That's Just Palpatine,
22:07
Speaker 3: the hit comedy show. So let's go spin that player up.
22:11
Speaker 3: I think it's time to close these.
22:12
Speaker 4: Negotiations, John, negotiations are closed.
22:22
Speaker 1: Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.