Latest / Your Leo Nation / Flock Cameras Exposed: Spying or Saving Lives?
Transcript
- Mark Garrett: Flock cameras. Hello, America. Welcome to your Leo Nation. Flock cameras are are a hot topic right now, for I think a couple of reasons. But they really have hit the news. We see a lot of division in law enforcement. I think really kind of geographically where you are, based geographically where law enforcement is in this country. Gee, I wonder why. But you see, a lot of departments are raving about Marcelo Arrue: So, Mark Garrett: Flock cameras, as far as being a tool for enhancing public safety. And you have other agencies and advocates and groups like the ACLU saying that flock cameras are an invasion of privacy, violation of your right to privacy. Of course, when the ACLU tells me where the right to privacy is found in the Constitution. Marcelo Arrue: Okay. Okay. Mark Garrett: Then maybe I will support their position. Until then, they are full of you know what. Look, join us today. I think I think we can call them an expert on flock cameras, at least on the overall topic of surveillance and intelligence gathering and tools that are used to improve and enhance public safety. And that's my best friend, Marcelo Rue, active law enforcement. Marcelo. How are you and welcome from California? Marcelo Arrue: Hey, Mark. Good to see you. It's been a little bit. Well, know, California is just leading the way as usual. Yes. Mark Garrett: Leading the way. You know, I just did I just did another episode. I we should call it leaving the way because everybody's still leaving California. A lot of those people are good Marcelo Arrue: That's true. Mark Garrett: law enforcement officers. But that's a different topic that I did cover. We might touch on it again here today. So, Marcelo flock cameras, first of all, throughout this Marcelo Arrue: I Mark Garrett: country, we don't have an exact number, but there's somewhere between 80 and 100,000 of these cameras. And just to give a little bit of background, they they are they are. Surveillance cameras. They flock as a private company. It's not a government entity. They contract with govern government entities, namely law enforcement and others. So private, law enforcement and other government entities they contract with. And these cameras are, I said, random places. Some like HOA communities, again, it's public streets, public highways, public buildings. They're all over the place. Marcelo Arrue: Yep. Mark Garrett: And I said they become a a very, very controversial thing right now. I just want to say this, I'm gonna hand up hand it over to you real quick, but the flot camera idea and and is not brand new. I'll just say this. The California High Patrol, my old agency, we've been using, I say we, my previous agency, started using LPRs, which were license plate readers, over twenty years ago. I can't remember to tell you the exact year, but twenty, twenty five years ago, CHP started using LPRs. And I don't we certainly weren't the first agency to do that. And tell me if I'm wrong, but license plate readers and flock camera cameras, if somewhat different, are very, very similar. Is that fair to say? Marcelo Arrue: Yeah, very similar. So the LPR is usually inside the vehicles. And what they do is that they are constantly running plates. And now if you get like a felony hit on a plate, it'll, it'll basically alert you, Hey, there's a felony hit that just on this plate. And usually it'll, it'll show like the front of the car or the back of the car. So, you know, where, which way it's going. I've used that when they all, when I was in patrol, that was the kind of vehicle that I wanted to be in was an LPR because it would help me take dangerous criminals off the street. where they're just driving by. And so it was a valuable tool to use. And Flock is a little more advanced because Flock, you can actually take a plate, go back to the station, put that plate in, and then find out where that vehicle was, you know, from, let's say, 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. It would show you its movement. Now, something that's very important that you said public flocks are not used in private property unless the owner of that property pays for the flock system. The flock system is generally used in public spaces. So there is no right to privacy. and so that's very important. It's very important for the public to know that The LAPD or CHP or the sheriffs, they're not checking on people's plates inside private entities unless that private entity has a flock system. know, the, the. Mark Garrett: Yeah, let me let me stop right there. It's it ver Go ahead. Marcelo Arrue: No, go ahead, go ahead. Mark Garrett: Well, it's a very important point, point distinguishing the you know the private use and the public use and and the differences there. And and we'll get into that a little bit about right to privacy, using that phrase. So going back though, you touched on something that I really important I had not thought of, and that's why I have you on here. And you really articulated a the if you get a hit on a plate, and just to clarify for the audience, we're talking about a felony hit. A license plate can come back to a vehicle or it can come back as a nexus to an individual. Is that fair to say? Marcelo Arrue: That's fair to say. Yes, absolutely. mean, sometimes the. Mark Garrett: Right. In other words, so what so we do a we to Marcelo Arrue: In other words, they're basically what they're... Mark Garrett: Yeah, so when we're doing we're doing investigations Marcelo Arrue: Go ahead, we have a little delay mark, so go ahead. Mark Garrett: Yeah, yeah. We have a little Anthony, we have a little delay. Just cut this out. And then what we'll do is Marcel and I will try to slow down our response to each other and so we make sure. but that when you when you track a when you get a hit on a license plate, it can mean that the the car is stolen or it can mean that that vehicle is associated with an individual who's committed a crime that could have Marcelo Arrue: So Mark Garrett: could involve anything. Kidnapping, murder, drug possession, could be someone's violation of of their felony parole. So the these systems are not tracking individuals per se, they are tracking vehicles. And those vehicles might have an association with a particular person. But one thing you talked about was if you get a hit on a Marcelo Arrue: So, Mark Garrett: vehicle on a license plate with flock, You can bring that information back into the station, so to speak. And now you can look for a pattern or different locations of that vehicle with the flock system. So in other words, it's here at 2 p.m. at this corner. Now you can go back and say, look, I'm gonna find out every place that you flock have identified that vehicle. Is that accurate? Marcelo Arrue: Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. So we use that a lot in investigations to figure out Especially now because there's such a high volume of burglaries and, you know, mostly residential burglaries. so Flock really helps us because we get to look back to see if that vehicle or the vehicle that we think this individual or individuals were driving in was in that area of those burglaries at the time of the crime. And so it really helps us narrow down the correct vehicle. I mean, there's times where we believe it's a vehicle, we'll run it on FLOC, and that vehicle's nowhere to be found. In fact, it's not even in that area at all. So we can discount that. And that's very important because in law enforcement, nobody wants to go after or arrest the wrong person. And so the FLOC system... not only helps us arrest the right person, but just as important, helps us take out the people that have nothing to do with it, if that makes sense. Mark Garrett: It makes total sense. Basically, you can exonerate, you can eliminate innocent people, at least the innocent of particular investigation, but innocent people. So this is great to know. Along those lines, Marcelo, I think one of the concerns people have about, well, any camera system, but we're talking about flock right now, because it listen, it is the one that's that's being talked about, and it is the predominant system out there. Talking about facial recognition. Flock, while there are those systems that exist out there, Flock Marcelo Arrue: Yes. Mark Garrett: does not recognize faces. It only recognizes license plates and markers of vehicles that are already in the system that are put in there by law enforcement. It is not tracking people by their physical appearance. Is that accurate? Marcelo Arrue: Absolutely. That's absolutely correct. This is not a facial recognition system that is in public. That's not what it's made for. It is strictly for license plates. That's all it does. It doesn't tell me who's driving the car. It doesn't tell me how many people are in the car. It'll give me a direction of travel. It'll give me the street, the cross street, because that's where the camera's at, and then the license plate. But it has nothing to do with facial recognition. And you're correct. There Mark Garrett: Mm-hmm. Marcelo Arrue: is a system like that, but it's not the flock system. And so pretty important Mark Garrett: Mm-hmm. Marcelo Arrue: because you know, The department put out a certain statement and I was a little confused about it. And I think we talked about it a little bit, but it says that, you know, we have a high regard for the system, but it comes great responsibility and it's stewardship. so that it's a little confusing to me because are we saying that some people are using it in a way that you shouldn't be? And so, you know, that's what becomes very vague with people in the department. They want it more clear. Like, what are you talking about? What do you mean by this? Or are you just taking away the system because it works too well? And so this is where the rumors begin, Mark. And so Mark Garrett: Mm-hmm. Marcelo Arrue: this is why leadership needs to come in and go, the reason why we're not using the flock at this moment or we've discontinued using it is because we haven't come to an agreement with them. It's a contract dispute, whatever it may be. This is what we need to hear. And I think it just shows clarity. Mark Garrett: Mm-hmm. Marcelo Arrue: communication is so key in such a big department like the sheriff's, CHP or LAPD. And when you don't have that, people start officers start jumping to conclusions. And then that kind of snowballs. So I really wish that the department would come out and say, hey, look, here's the reason why. There's no other reason, but we can't come to an agreement on a contract, which makes sense. Mark Garrett: That would that would make sense. A hundred percent. it like any other vendor law enforcement uses, or you have contract disputes, you can't come to an agreement about how much you're gonna pay for what service you're gonna get, and you end that contract. I dealt with that as a manager with higher patrol all the time. But you made a great point about lack of clarity, lack of transparency, and and lack of accuracy. if a department just says that, Marcelo Arrue: you Mark Garrett: or or doesn't say that, but says we're gonna end the contract anyway. One of the things that's been put out there to your point, Marcelo, in, you know, again from the ACLU and from other groups and from I I I was just watching just a little while ago, I was watching a video from the city of Pasadena that I know very, very well as well as you do. Marcelo Arrue: So. Mark Garrett: And they're trying these groups there in Pasadena are trying to end this, are trying to end the use of flock, really because of, you know, discrimination claims. And we can talk about that in a minute. But one of the other issues is that, well, and you talked about this, was the the misuse or the allegations of misuse or the po possibility of misuse of the block system by law enforcement officers. We've got a million or so sworn peace officers across this country. Do officers do some idiot officers Marcelo Arrue: So, I'm to Mark Garrett: do illegal things and use the CLUT system, NCIC for for for personal gain or trying to find an ex-girlfriend or whatever, any other illegal. activity. Yes, they do. And we've seen it happen in our respective departments. And those people are dealt with administratively and often criminally. And that's the way it should be. The point is this is that the vast, vast, vast majority of officers do the right thing and do not misuse these information systems. And so to say that Flock is any different than systems that are already available Marcelo Arrue: So, thank you. Mark Garrett: you know, at the fingertips of law enforcement officers is really a red herring. In other words, why are you going to single out this system? If that's your worry, you have to sing out single out all confidential systems, all informations that reveal private information about, in this case, vehicles, in order to ensure that would never ever be used inappropriately. So to me, that is a non-argument. It is absolutely ridiculous. And I think again, it's just a reason to get rid of the system for other political reasons that you touched on. Marcelo Arrue: Great. Mark Garrett: Now, having said that, one of the one of the facts about the Flock system, again, it's a private system. It's not a government system. They contract these entities. The entities, and we're talking about law enforcement right now. Law enforcement agencies are able to legally share that information with whomever they want. And I'm talking specifically about other law enforcement agencies. Is that fair say, Marcello? Marcelo Arrue: Correct. Yep, correct. Because there's some, there's times where, and just going back to burglaries, there's, there's a time where, this vehicle not only committed a burglary in the city of Los Angeles, but that same vehicle was in San Jose. And so that's why we share information because when, when you apprehend these people, well, now you're not just, arresting them for the burglary in Los Angeles. You're also adding the burglary, like say San Jose, of course, I'm just making up a city. but that's why it's very important to have this disinformation. And this is why we share information. One of the things that you also touched on is the ACLU. for the life of me, I don't know what their argument is because as I stated before, the flock system doesn't identify a white driver, a black driver, an Asian driver. And in fact, it doesn't identify any drivers. It just identifies the plate. Now, if the ACLU is worried that there's an abundance of black people being arrested because of the flock. Well, that's a whole nother issue. That's a whole nother, Mark Garrett: Right. Marcelo Arrue: you know, of worms that we can, we can open up later, but the flock system itself only takes plates, has nothing to do with facial recognition, has nothing to do with race. It has nothing to do with gender. Mark Garrett: It's it's it's so important. Now again, I I don't know specifically if well let's put it this way. I'm not surprised a bit of ACLE's making that argument because they always do. and but they're talk they're certainly talking about mass surveillance. the ACLU making this this argument that you know it's Big Brother. And look, by the way, it is Big Brother. But I'll tell you what else is also Big Brother. Marcelo Arrue: Sure. Mark Garrett: Big Brother is every phone network cell phone network knows exactly where and when you're driving. You don't even have to walk into a McDonald's or into a bed bath and beyond. You don't have those in California anymore. They left. But anyway, or you know Marcelo Arrue: Yeah. Mark Garrett: any store, you don't you Marcelo Arrue: No. Mark Garrett: don't even have to go into those stores anymore. If you get close enough, if it gets close enough it dings your phone that you've actually had contact with that store. And I forget what it's called. It's like a you know, whatever, a brush or a handshake or something like that. You know, the difference between being close to the store or going. This is all recorded on your cell phones, on your your GPS and everything else, in order to sell you more stuff. And cell phone companies and other data collection companies know more about your daily habits than Flock ever will. So to me, again, that is another. Marcelo Arrue: Okay. Okay. Mark Garrett: red hearing from groups like the ACLU and and other individuals and elected officials about, you know, tracking where we are. Flock doesn't know anything about your daily habits compared to what these cell phone companies and other entities know. We talked about this too, Marcel, about data sharing, just just briefly about, you know, there are debates about, I'm reading some notes here regarding, you know, the data about you know who they share it with. I know in specifically in Pasadena and and by the way, out of Los Angeles, you have individuals and groups talking about the a particular agency sharing data with ICE. And I'm thinking, so what? Are you telling me that data should be shared with an agency who's investigating a murder of a U by by a US citizen, but they shouldn't share data of a murder or another crime that may have been committed by an illegal alien? This is the insanity. This is the insanity of these arguments about why why you want to get rid of flock. And we know for a fact this is a big, big push because just like US citizens, legal aliens drive cars. And if they're warrant for a crime or that vehicle is suspected of being a crime, ICE can find them through flock information that they've obtained from their agency. So this is one of the pushbacks here. It's a political pushback. it's not. a objective logistical or right to privacy pushback it is a political issue with with the Flock system. Your take on that? Marcelo Arrue: Yeah, absolutely, Mark. The thing is, is that can't prevent just ICE from using Flock. And so they do it across the board. Other than that, there's no point in it. What people don't understand is that these systems keep communities safe. They keep people safe. And this is where communities need to understand that the Flock system is for that. is to keep the community safe. If ICE uses it, they have their own responsibilities in our country. They are an immigration enforcement unit or law enforcement agency. They have their responsibilities. We, on the other hand, have our responsibilities. And so just because we're using it in different ways, doesn't make it any worse or any better. It's just, we all have our own responsibilities. And I agree with you. It is a political push. It is a political push, Mark, because there is no way that you can say, hey, we're going to, we are going to deny ICE to use the flock system, but everyone else can't. I mean, that would just be, there's a lawsuit coming for sure. And so in And so in order for them to cover their tracks, they said, well, ICE can't use it. Neither can LAPD. I don't know about CHP or sheriffs. I know that there's always contract disputes with a private entity. And let's face it, the reason why FLOX works so well is because it's a private entity. If it was a government entity, it would probably take us three weeks to find a place. Mark Garrett: Yeah. Marcelo Arrue: So, I mean, that's the truth of it. Mark Garrett: Hey, yeah. It is. It's the reality of it. It is the reality of it. And I I think that I use the phrase a few times here, but I think it's important. The red herring, the biggest red herring argument here is the public, I'm sorry, is the the right to privacy issue. because again, once you your vehicle is out on a public roadway or you're viewable from a public roadway, a public highway, a public place, once you are observable. You don't have any right to privacy. Of course, you have right to privacy inside of your own home or other places. But even those are not 100% off-limit, with as you know, with search warrants and warrants for arrest. But right to privacy only applies in place where there is an expectation of privacy. And that does not include the 405 freeway or or 6th Street and Wilshire or Wilshire Boulevard in downtown Los Angeles. It does not include those places. Sorry, ladies and gentlemen. I'm a big prof proponent of the smallest government possible, but this is one here where it does not bother me. And I think that flock and camera systems like this, used properly, and they almost always are, are a great tool in the effort to protect the community and for law enforcement to operate more effectively, more efficiently. Marcelo Arrue: Thanks. Mark Garrett: and to be better partners for that their allied agencies. Marcelo Ruth, thank you so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure. We hope to see you sometime soon in the free state of Florida. And I miss you, brother, and hope to see you soon. God bless you. Thanks a lot. Marcelo Arrue: Thanks. Thanks, brother. I love you. bless. Mark Garrett: By the way, ladies and gentlemen, love you too. By the way, make sure you go to our merchandise store at your Leonation slash store. We've got merch up there now. You can go out there and buy it. We got some great shirts and hats. I bought a few. I think that was my first customer just a few days ago. We just went live. So get in there, Marcelo Arrue: Hahaha! Mark Garrett: check it out. And we we do appreciate it. By the way, Marcelo, we may have some very patriotic wigs that may work for you. So thanks a lot, my buddy. Marcelo Arrue: Okay.