Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Is Finn Russell the Best in the World? Aussie Rugby at a Crossroads & Why Everyone Hates Ireland

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Is Finn Russell the Best in the World? Aussie Rugby at a Crossroads & Why Everyone Hates Ireland · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
You'll be pleased to know, Victor, that my wife cleaned all my South African jerseys. Look at those brother or sort it at the back there
0:06
Brooks gone jerseys in
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Right, there's never been many books there
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Come on, Ricardo. You went to the same school as me, mate
0:15
Right, just before we start I'm gonna throughout the show. I'm gonna read some of the comments from YouTube
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So the first one before we start
0:24
From Stuart McGill 3691
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Although those glasses are pretty large. They obviously don't help JK's vision because he obviously couldn't see what was happening in the book match
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So the glasses seem to stir up quite a lot of comments. Thank you very much Stuart McGill
0:41
But let's get into it. I'm good to see you've got the white ones JK. Welcome JK Victor and Andrew Trimble. This is rivals
0:56
Right, just one more one more comment from the YouTube comment section, which I particularly liked the host of this podcast is the best of them all
1:05
Never unnecessarily get some self-involved kudos to you Ricardo sir
1:10
JK
1:11
There you go. That's from gonna live 5.6. Nate. So good. You can't read out stuff about yourself when you read out comments
1:19
You're kidding yourself. What's that all about? It was just a random comment. I just pulled that out of nowhere. It's probably from your cousin. Yeah
1:26
Tell them their comments
1:28
How important is the second test for Australian rugby? Yeah, Ricardo. I think it's a huge match for Australia
1:36
We all looked at it. I mean, we all know they've been through a
1:40
Very difficult patch with the rugby union and we know in Australia
1:45
They compete with a lot of other sport coats and
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There's British Marys Lions test series and the World Cup. That's coming in two years. We're almost like
1:55
Something that looked at to revive the sport and to get more favor from the kids more kids to play it
2:03
More people to support it. We know they're competing with union and Australian
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Football so yeah, so far not that good
2:14
I think the season second test match is going to be huge for them, but unfortunately at the moment. I just don't think
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They've got the players to compete. We all talk about Joe Schmidt
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But I mean any Ferrell's just as good a coach and mean that all the Lions coaching staff is
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Pretty on top of it. So
2:35
It's going to be very difficult for them and yeah, I don't know how Australian rugby will come back as well
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Because if you listen to them, I mean the stadiums are not full when they play
2:48
Most kids go to league or to fully like they call it in Australia. So yeah, it's difficult time for them and
2:57
Unfortunate this style. I don't think they've got the players and they don't know how they want to win games. They don't know
3:04
What's their DNA? We've always talked in South Africa. What's our DNA? We always need to go back to that if that's in place
3:11
Yes, then you can expand you can try different things like we're doing at the moment
3:16
But you must have the DNA of what do South African teams do on it and Australia need that as well
3:22
Well, I watched it pretty intensely and I just think that
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Two things for me, and I don't know what you guys think but I think Australia's lost their way away a wee bit on how they play
3:34
It wasn't until the game was over that they started playing a bit more expansive
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I mean, I think their strengths and their strengths have always been in their backs
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They didn't use them much at all. So I think they've lost their identity
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We've been on on Australian rugby and how they used to play we often talk about
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You know South African style and New Zealand style French style and even now an Irish style right Australia always had a style
4:01
The second thing is you can't turn around like man for man the lines were better
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Bar probably a couple of players
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You can't turn that round in a week. I just think the quality of
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Athlete that they're producing for rugby at the moment in Australia is not there
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I think all the tenants going to rugby league going to AFL going to all the other sports
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So it's a massive game for Australia, but I just don't think they've got the cattle to win
4:31
I mean, they're kept and kicks the ball away when they could have run a hundred meters in school to try to make it a bit closer
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And then he kicked it away again when he was out wide in the midfield when he had some backs outside him
4:43
I just don't understand what we're trying to do. Yeah, the the DNA I suppose you might start with a
4:49
Pragmatism from Joe Schmidt and he tried to get them direct and a little bit more confrontational for like for periods in that second half
4:56
And they probably got a little bit more joy than they would have flinging it around because
5:00
There's so much line speed coming from from the Lions and they're just cutting out so many options
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So it's really they're staring down the barrel now they're staring down the barrel of 3-0
5:12
And yeah, I'm the same as you guys. I can't see any way back one or two injuries. Maybe skeleton gets back there Valentini
5:19
I mean, I can't see that move in the mountains. I can't see that changing anything significantly if anything
5:25
Australia got off off the hook a little bit by that Lions bench not creating anywhere near as much impact as we thought it would and then reality really we had
5:36
Maybe 25 minutes 30 minutes in the first half of of Lions put in a few phases together and that was enough to
5:43
To put them away and it felt like
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Lions are kind of shrugged their shoulders
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I don't know if I will give them a hard time no doubt
5:51
You're trying to turn the screw and get that level of intensity for 80 minutes, but if they know the 30 minutes is enough then
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I just don't see I don't see this changing significantly in any way at all
6:03
And it's a bit depressing to think that I think I think that's a really interesting point
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I mean
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We've all played in games where you know you're gonna win and it's one of the hardest ones and
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And you know, I think when you play with your normal team
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Then you're aware of it your leadership coming and you really put the screws on and you start talking about you know
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How many points you can put on the opposition, but I agree Trimby?
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I think that Farrell will be absolutely
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Ropable about the second half especially where they just seem to you know sit back the reserves didn't really make an impact
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But the whole team seemed to drop about 20% so
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You know, I can't see Australia really even if they play their best
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I think if Australia come out and play a lot better
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I think the Lions will have another cog just for the quality of player just for the quality of the player and like like Victor said
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You know well-organized and I know Joe's
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Joe's you know he's turned them around quite a bit they had a good season last year
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But you've got the cattle that you've got and that's no disrespect of the players that are getting out there and giving it there they're all but
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If you don't have a style of play then often, you know, it's really really hard to try and create something
7:19
Andrew do you think the Lions will make some changes on that bench because of the performance in the second half?
7:25
I'm not sure if they will because it's
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They're basically the stars delivered. They I mean there's nobody in that team. You could unless you
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Unless they go with you know kind of Razzie approach where they say right well actually we're we're just looking to
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sharpen things getting impact
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I think that bench you would imagine they were getting a bench. It's it'll be strange to get dropped from
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a bench position to a starting position because you're not bringing any impact
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But I know I can see Razzie interpreting that way. I just can't see foul interpreting that way
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I think you're just given the hard time and he will get what he wants the next time around
8:01
I think they were they to be fair the Lions were very good for 25 minutes
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I mean some of their fees play some of their some of their setup just keep on going around the corner was
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It was there was brilliant stuff in there was a lot of deception
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There was a lot of kind of thoughtfulness around what they were doing and they got a lot of joy from it
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Passes stuck on transition it stuck as well then defensively there was a few big big moments
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um
8:28
Tom Curry was brilliant. Tyke Burm is brilliant. I thought they're part like
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Um, Tyke Farlong. We haven't seen a performance like that
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Everybody it's all kind of memory with Tyke Farlong. It's like okay. Remember we've seen this two years ago three years ago
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And far I said no, I know this guy. I know where he can deliver whenever it gets to test match
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Alliance test match. He will deliver any absolute delivered my scrum probably was there was a couple of times given away and the loose
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I'm loose head side victor let you comment more than that. Maybe that's somewhere
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um Australia um can do something with maybe joshmit kind of felt like the impact he got from his bench
9:03
Would be more significant than what the Lions got maybe make some changes there. Don't know, but um
9:09
Yeah, there's some huge performances from that Lions pack all three out all throughout the 15 for 25 minutes
9:16
And then after that they were kind of home and hose that stage
9:20
Let's let's just talk about fin Russell for a moment. I mean, you know, surely he must be one of the best players on the planet
9:27
You know the way he's playing at the moment me and you unfunner on coach of both are really close
9:32
I worked with him for 20 years
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You almost grew up as a coach with us playing with the rules and um when he signed fin Russell
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There was all this talk about fin being a difficult guy
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All expanse if you can't play the pressure game, and I know you aren't from her own beliefs in the pressure game
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Very South African style
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And he said it was just amazing to work with fin fin
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I mean taking the ball to the line brave on defense
10:01
And he's actually a great team and and um we were all wondering about him and Johnny six and they've got a boss
10:08
Johnny is a coach and maybe Andrew can come in here three years, but um
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I think fin Russell is very close to the base play in the world at the moment
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um
10:18
I mean what he did for both the difference he made there and now in this line squad probably with that
10:24
that burn uh the two
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Stan our players from me on this whole trip, so um, you know, I think he's unbelievable
10:31
I think I think he he was unbelievable
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Um at the weekend, but I think he was
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Unbelievable because his pack was so good on jimson gibson park was so good as well
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Uh, and this is the same for for anybody really any any any any ten is gonna be at the mercy of of the platform that they're that they're on
10:51
And uh on this occasion he couldn't have had it more perfect uh again for for that first half far in in the game
10:59
Uh, gives him jimson gibson park his tempo was so good the ball is perfect is sitting on a plotter the phase base
11:04
So good there's so much deception and so much good shape and what they're doing the challenging defenders every defender
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Has a really difficult decision to make and if you keep asking those difficult decisions
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Then they're gonna make mistakes um, but the moment um that he flung that pass over
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It's the most fin Russell thing you'll ever see that password to to poloto um
11:26
He just there's a composure to fin Russell and I think he's always had he's up
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We've always known high-tality years who always known how special and different he is as a ten
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But he seems to have just married that with a maturity and I think Scottish people will be listening to this pull in their hair
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They're going well. We've been saying this for years
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But he's been playing behind a Scottish park
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And now you get to see the full version of fin Russell because he's he's got the opportunity to do that
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I felt sorry for liner, you know um my played with his old man here in terizo
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Because their practice didn't go forward. So I think the thing I love about fin Russell and probably why he's being criticized in the past is I don't think he's gonna go out
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And play the game that you want him to play if he sees something in front of him
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So he's got the courage to actually go I'm not gonna paint by numbers if I see something I'm gonna do that and I think a lot of coaches
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In the past have sort of gone always hard to handle. I don't think he's hard to handle
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I just think he's got this vision and he's got the confidence to execute it
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I've always said that
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You know first fives back in our day and I'm old
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um, you know, used to be able to go to that level and play
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But I think there's a there's a complexity to it now that it's not easy to play test rugby at first five
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It takes you a few years to mature it takes you a few years
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To understand how you play run the football team you need strong twelves outside you so you don't have to do all the leadership stuff as far as visions consume
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So I think um, you know, I've always I've always followed him when he's played against Scotland and I agree with you Andrew
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You know sometimes Scotland's pack will be equalized by the opposition and fast line speed
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So, you know, he had the beauty of the of the forward pack going forward
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But I just think he is world class because of those reasons he will play what's in front of him
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And you can't coach that and you shouldn't coach it out of people
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I mean the fin russell like the the commentary and the the the reaction people you know
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Everything was why can't you just be more pragmatic make more uh make uh the percentages those decisions with ball and hand
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Just just do the right things and that was the whole thing
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You know, how do you get this guy to you know kind of pull back a little bit of manager test much
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JK like it's so it's so difficult to maintain one thing
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Maintain that whatever is special about his game his ability to throw that pass his bravery
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He is he's very brave with ball and hand he makes the right decision even if he feels like right this
14:01
This might not this might not fall well for me
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This might not tell a good story about me, but I know it's the right decision to do and I'm talented enough to put it there
14:11
Um, no, it wasn't the perfect one from that cross kick to to
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uh, Jim McCarthy
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But I mean, you know, that was that was one of the opportunities where you sort of thought well if they score here
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Or the three on two from James Lowe
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There was a few other ones where lions could have kicked on it could have been 50 points
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Fin russell contributed to one of those missed opportunity. So it's not it wasn't the perfect
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Performance from him, but it was certainly very good and yeah
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He's married that x factor and point of difference with he knows how to manage the team
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He knows how to manage the task much. Yeah, I just um for me. It's um
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Looking at Rackby and again. We talked about it. Yeah, the more Rackby changed the more stays the same
14:49
I think again if you talk about fin russell. Yeah, the pack that's on the front foot
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Um, and if it's on the front foot, you want the ball in his hands as much as often
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And I've seen in the past and expressions are there because we did it wrong for quite a bad way
15:06
We want to make
15:07
Get the ball in the forwards hands and the forwards make the decisions
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I mean, I played with a ferrida prayer
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We if you've got a pack that goes forward you want to you want to give him the options to make
15:19
The right options on the line. That's why he was running all the time
15:23
Yeah, always had two three forwards as options. Yeah, they're thinning behind which he can play played wide as well
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So that's what you wonder and I think was fin russell if he's on the front foot. He's got a pack
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Like Andrew said to Scott with Scott and maybe miss that sometimes
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But I mean with both he added with the lines he's got it. He's on the front foot you want to
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Have that structure around him and I think with a iris way of play you will have all those options
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And now he can go to the line and he can make
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Uh those decisions on the line and uh, I don't think there's many guys better than him
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Making those decisions on the line
16:01
Victor, what do you do if you're Australia then? What do you do? Do you play liner again?
16:05
Yeah, you make changes. I mean
16:09
They've had a few injuries. I like I it's a long time since I've seen
16:15
Australia with a dominant
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You know set of locks that are going to put line-outs under pressure
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You know, do you see them missing a front five or
16:26
Unfortunately, that's what's missing um, I mean, I mean ala doa
16:31
James slipper both of them. I mean James slipper over 100 games ala doa close to it
16:37
Unfortunately, I'd love them great place, but the quality is just not there. I mean at scrum time they will struggle in the second row without
16:47
Without skeleton skeleton there
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They just don't have the physicality to stand up. I mean last year South Africa meant over
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With almost a B side a young side and they still
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I got the up end on that back. So
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It's very difficult and again, Jacob, I do say what's the D&A how are they going to win the T-Smatch?
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I always say if you're going to a T-Smatch and you don't know how you want to win the T-Smatch then you in trouble and I just don't see the picture
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Of them going out. This is what we're going to do. We're going to play face play. We're going to play quick ball
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We don't want line-outs. We don't not going to kick out
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Any way you think they're going to play. I just think the lines are better
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So I don't see a way and that's that's a problem
17:29
All right, well if you're Australian you've probably turned off now, but um, I've got
17:33
I've got another comment here
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From at Brady
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Instead of cards award three points. I like that. Oh god. No. I like something jk said. I need to go and take a shower
17:46
Yeah culture culture. I'll help you there Brady. I mean I once again. I watched the game on the weekend and can I just say that
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I thought Ben O'Keefe and and Angus Gardner were both outstanding
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I thought the level of refereeing and the Lions game was exceptional
18:03
Victor you would love that it could have been a yellow card and it wasn't he just said look
18:08
Medicating factors. I thought Ben O'Keefe went out when our game is left properly and let me say game
18:15
It's not the rest fault. It's the rules fault
18:17
It's outstanding and I thought both Angus and him were outstanding on the weekend because they interpreted the
18:23
game as it should be played
18:26
You know using the TMO when they needed it
18:30
You know, I think at one stage in the fifty second minute, you know, one of them one of them I I can't remember which game
18:36
It was they said no, I haven't seen it that way to the TMO
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Which I think is good
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So, you know, they were they were outstanding, but I still think that you know, they're having to go and warn the players now
18:48
The players are professional
18:50
You know, I'm Victor used to push the I was very clean in it and an honest type of player used to push the rules to the maximum even more
18:57
Throw them than Richie McCore, you know, so
19:01
The players will do that and it's there right to do that
19:04
It's there right to try and push the rules to the thing to the limit
19:09
So I believe that if you had three penalties in the 22 you just get three points, but you carry on
19:16
It's just there's just the siren goes you get your three points because you've been friends three times
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And then the players will referee themselves and I just think it'll make a better spectacle higher risk around penalties
19:27
We won't see as many yellow cards
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So I think that we need to really at least try that try it and super rugby next year
19:37
Well, that's that's you and Brady that that that agree on that
19:42
What did you think about being a hills take or do you think their arms involved should have been a card you're okay with it Victor?
19:49
Yeah, it's difficult
19:52
And everything they should be a card so
19:56
Yeah, so um happy that there's no cards
20:01
Um
20:02
You need to have a look at it in slow-mo and at real speed
20:06
But those things are always pretty difficult. So um let's go with no cry
20:11
I I think that anything around the knees
20:14
Should be penalized or
20:16
That three point thing that I'm talking about. I think it's as dangerous as a high tackle
20:20
I hate seeing it now. Did he trip? I don't know
20:24
Did he try and put his arm up? Yes, I agree with the decision the other decision that I thought would have got a real yellow card
20:29
And any day of the week was the tackle online up
20:32
You know like any day of the week that's a yellow card and it wasn't and I think
20:37
You know, there wasn't a lot of intent in it
20:39
Um, but it was against the law so for me two things
20:43
I think both decisions were right, but I don't like when players are really that low
20:48
Jacob I just want to know I'm with you. I mean
20:51
Most injuries is the tackler that get concussion
20:56
Not the guy that gets tackles, but I mean if you get big forwards
21:00
Running around the corner they drop their body height
21:03
So your only targets almost to hit him on their shoulders because he's all done and you can just see that
21:09
All you need to go for the knees. There's no other place if the guys come around the corner
21:14
With that low position that they're running these days into the tackle
21:17
So where must you tackle and that makes it very difficult where in the old days
21:21
Most of those tackles you probably would have stand up caught the gun try to hold him up
21:26
But now they so hard if you can hit to it or save it the only thing you can do is almost
21:31
To dive at the knees and I'm with you as well. I think that's more dangerous than the
21:36
8 to 8 that they so on at the moment
21:38
Benner will kind of if his arm
21:41
Like when you say there were arms and that other I was on arm in the tackle. There was barely an arm lifted
21:47
There was I mean yeah, he left it was the
21:50
He pretended he put his arm nearby to give the impression that his arm was involved
21:56
But I don't think it was I think that was a penalty that one
21:58
um
21:59
Suppose when you're going that far on your your head start it is it is a stretch to get your arms into the right position
22:05
Yeah, so I thought that was a penalty that one and I just know Benner Keith
22:10
It felt like there was a
22:12
calmness and a like there was a lot of sensible
22:15
Stuff going out there with uh with Benner Keith throughout the whole game
22:19
But that on paper you're saying JK he had a good game. He awarded two tries on the pitch
22:25
That that we're not that we're very clearly not not tries and he got overruled by STMO
22:30
So that'd be the only thing I would say about that. They both looked unusual
22:34
And it's another one. It's another one that kind of indicates what we've talked about before here
22:40
Our game is so complex
22:42
If you are an American or someone who doesn't follow rugby you go on
22:46
I've learned nothing there. There's such complex language. It's so confusing
22:50
I don't know anything more about rugby than I did five minutes ago before this whole
22:54
conversation
22:55
That's Ludo in this whole game all I know is I'm having less fun because the game's less lively
23:00
That's that that's what I would say yeah
23:02
I think it'd been just talking about Ben and I think you know, we talked about Finn Russell
23:08
I know Ben a few years ago was trying to
23:12
You know, do everything that his bosses wanted him to do like he was trying to you know
23:16
You need to do this this and this
23:19
But you know in the last two or three years he just got back he was a he was a brilliant referee for any starter
23:24
And then he went through this phase of trying to please you know
23:28
The bosses and he really went into his shell and we didn't really know because I think that you know
23:35
Refs I don't think we should try and
23:37
Stereo type them or homogenize them. I think we need to tell them be yourself because then the players
23:44
Can actually adjust to that type of ref you know what is going to referee
23:48
So I think it's hard on them as well to go out and you know, they get directives every week
23:52
They get all this all this sort of you know, the the thing that they need to control and that sometimes that's you know around
24:00
People making comments on what's right and what's wrong?
24:03
You know if you're Australian you probably feel a little bit hard done by but I think as a game he was outstanding
24:08
We talk about characters in the game and we always very negative about the referees especially on this show but
24:15
I think you need to referees also to be characters. I think some of their best referees in the world was guys with
24:22
uh
24:23
Very strong characters that believed in what they did out there. They were very confident
24:28
When we had Jonathan Kaplan in South Africa
24:31
Where as a young captain
24:34
I just knew all the other referees I could try and get them on my side by influencing with Jonathan
24:40
I just say thanks Jonathan because he was so
24:42
Uh, he had such a strong character and the same with Nigel Owens
24:46
He was the same he went into a referee
24:48
He knew how he wanted to control the game. He didn't want a lot of stoppages. So I mean
24:54
Whenever we played in he was the referee. He said especially at the breakdown
24:57
You can hold on to the ball a little longer let him fight for it because he didn't want to blow the whistle
25:01
He wanted to the game to flow so I think the best referees are those
25:06
Strong characters that believe in themselves and that's very confident as well
25:10
That leads me nicely to a comment from Ed
25:14
Greg Christos 8954
25:17
Victor we are long past our dark days of biting ears
25:21
Jesper knows it's against the law. He lost his composure and the book management
25:25
Themself should have sanctioned him end of story. So someone disagrees with you. Sorry. Yeah listen
25:31
You will be talked to in a group. I mean
25:35
That was very stupid of what he did. It's just for me
25:38
There was no harm done so I want to see 15 versus 15 but
25:43
Being in South Africa now you didn't ask me about where I'm sitting today
25:46
Did you see the picture behind me? Love it no so we celebrate at Mandela day this week as well
25:54
And I mean in South Africa. It's pretty big where he did in South Africa
25:58
How he brought rapidly to unify our country and I think in South Africa that's still a very big thing
26:04
For the spring book team and I'm very proud today South Africa and the 20 world champions seven
26:11
World series champions and world champions twice in a row
26:15
So I've got my spring book badge as well. Okay, mate. So I'm very proud South Africa today. Yeah, well you should be too late because
26:24
You know the under 20 side was
26:26
was
26:27
You know, I just think it's a great rivalry and it's starting at under 20s. I mean you've got some real talent coming through
26:33
We spoke about it last week. I mean one of the greatest
26:37
moments of my life
26:39
Victor was
26:40
You know being in South Africa in 1992
26:43
When you know when Mandela was going for for prime minister or president and
26:49
We had a barbecue in Joeburg. You'll remember this Ricardo because you're a media manager
26:56
And we had a barbecue and for safety we went down into a mine. So there was de clerk
27:02
And I think you know often
27:05
Well, he might not be but de clerk was an amazing man in that relationship as well
27:09
You know, so there was de clerk there was Mandela and there was our prime minister and the two rugby teams
27:16
You know, so for me to be part of that history and just be there as a little insignificant rugby player was amazing
27:23
But you know unfortunately for me I was a little bit past it, but but that
27:28
I always remember him walking a prime minister or president. I guess you call him but walking out with a spring box jersey
27:35
you know and
27:37
I'll say this and I'll only say this once. I think that the greatest thing that happened
27:42
To world peace and in the future of South Africa was actually South Africa winning that World Cup
27:48
I think it was so important
27:50
It was way way bigger than the game and you know Mandela said you know sport
27:55
Has the power to heal and I still believe that so I absolutely love that poster behind you
28:01
And I love that you're celebrating Victor because
28:03
We should not forget the strength that that man showed and using our beautiful game
28:09
And look at it now look at the look at you know look at the both our nations
28:14
And you know island is also the same now Andrew they're bringing a whole lot more different races
28:21
And and and I just think it's a beautiful thing. So celebrate man have have you what do you have that with coke?
28:26
What do you have that should drink you have what is that called
28:29
A brandy and
28:31
Brandy and coke no one no one put coke and brandy but anyway, you should celebrate man
28:36
You should be very proud and I think rugby should be proud as a game and we need to keep that
28:41
Keep that message and keep them alive as long as we can
28:44
Robby should be proud in in to Africa obviously and
28:48
That was the big that was the narrative you know
28:50
We need to win the World Cup to bring this country together
28:53
I think you're getting greedy night at this stage how many world cops do you need
28:57
To unite this country and we we're sitting we haven't even won a quarter final
29:01
But we still need some peace and reconciliation in our land
29:05
So please just give us a World Cup or you know what just give us if Ireland won a quarter final
29:09
There will be peace and reconciliation the good Friday agreement will complete its work
29:15
You guys stop being so greedy, okay
29:19
It's hard
29:20
Todd and you know like um
29:23
Of one a world cup of lost a world cup
29:25
And it's just a different sport you know, it's and and it's something that's the Africa of really understood and specially rassy
29:32
You know like and I think winning world cups is so different to
29:37
To actually playing any other tournament you cannot actually prepare for it
29:41
I don't believe it's going to throw stuff at you. So I mean if it wasn't us that we're winning
29:46
I'm pretty sure the world would like to see Ireland actually get up there and win it because
29:51
You've actually been leading the world for a few years now, so
29:55
I'm not you know, I I'm actually I'd like to think that is the case
29:59
But it's it's amazing how on popular
30:03
Harlan have become especially victor with with South Africans
30:06
It's but now I and it's and it is a compliment. It is a very disguised compliment
30:12
but um
30:13
Because Ireland were so competitive for
30:16
really consistently for
30:18
Three maybe four years right up there being the best in the world and competing with the best in the world and being realistically
30:25
Don't know they would they wouldn't have been favorites for the world cup
30:27
But certainly well in that conversation as one of the favorites for that world cup
30:32
And it just felt like you know, you're you're a victim of your success people like South Africans hated this Irish side
30:40
Um Kiwi's hated this Irish side because of everyone that happened with um with Johnny sex and became
30:46
I mean he was he was vilified and then the book came out and it made things even worse with Kiwi's not rivalry
30:53
All of this stuff like it's all a compliment it because Ireland were
30:57
We're headed. It's all a compliment. It's because they're good enough to be headed
31:01
Yeah, it's such a strange kind of mechanism
31:04
I agree but it's but it's actually it's actually
31:09
Something you need to manage because you're not used to it
31:13
You know, Victor you've been there as well
31:15
Like you cannot prepare for that pressure all of a sudden you start not living in the present
31:20
And you think I need to win this because I you know
31:23
so
31:24
So they're gonna have it down pat at the moment, you know
31:27
Oh, but Andrew that I think it's really I think it's very true. I mean
31:32
Once people starting to hate you a little bit. It's a big compliment
31:37
I mean if you take South African the world cup
31:40
uh if you ever seen a whole French nation supporting England and after that quarter final
31:46
Going to that semi-final. I mean South Africa got good
31:50
From the first minute till the eighth minute and the whole phrase nation were behind England
31:55
I think that was the first ever to happen and so I mean same to you guys you guys are the threat
32:01
I think South Africa
32:03
New Zealand are used to being favorites going into stuff and all of a sudden we're not
32:09
Islands the number one team you were for probably are two three years and
32:13
At some things South African and New Zealand fans
32:16
Aren't used to and not happy about so it's a big compliment. I can never understand
32:22
Why people underestimate Argentina
32:25
And it happens every single time every time in the championship every time in a world cup
32:30
And yet they're the most one of the most consistent
32:32
World cup qualifying teams in the world. But anyway carry on Ricardo. Sorry your friend
32:38
What was his name said that you don't talk enough
32:41
Now what what I was going to say is is it being hated
32:45
Then obviously South Africa is complimenting you a lot JK but um
32:49
What do you think Victor the South African performance against Georgia?
32:54
Yeah, I started off slow again
32:56
um
32:58
And then luckily we scored the last two tries in the last ten minutes
33:02
But I think all of this is I think russi and doni brown are trying things
33:07
I mean we even
33:08
Ran from our in goal trying to get out of it
33:11
So I think they're trying a lot of things um, they're going to
33:15
Turn the squad on to 36. I still think they'll go with a more experienced squad
33:22
They might be one or two of the older guys
33:25
That might not be there
33:27
um
33:28
But yeah, it's very difficult all three taste matches. I mean uh
33:32
Not the strongest
33:34
Italian side here
33:36
Georgia we know uh, they're pretty good at setpiece, but um, they do not adhere one nation. So
33:43
Just I think three difficult games from South Africa, but russi will say listen
33:47
I gave everyone opportunities um, happy what I've seen
33:52
And yeah, now he needs to be guys that can
33:55
Do things for him under pressure because I think that's what will happen luckily
34:00
I think we're playing with Australia
34:02
So that will be our first two games that will give us a little step up before we play New Zealand in New Zealand
34:08
So um, I think you'll be happy with the three taste matches
34:12
one or two guys may be not standing up and some of the youngsters as well um
34:17
I mean there's a lot of comment in the media after the game about such a fine book
34:23
We know he's going to be a superstar in the future, but uh
34:27
Sometimes you get that second year syndrome
34:30
Um, I'm a big fan. I love him. I think he's going to be one of the superstars of South Africa and Rackby, but
34:37
All of a sudden russi say it's not true if he's the number one uh, wee's in there
34:42
Bicking order. So yeah, he needs to fight now as well to get through this
34:46
Yeah, I think that I think the the big conversation here is how you're gonna move on some of you got you guys now that aren't going to
34:55
Um, make the world cup, you know, they say
34:57
The the perfect mix for a world cup getting back to your discussion and yours, you know guys with experience
35:03
But then young guys that don't really know what they're getting into and how important it is
35:07
But they sort of say you know 25 or 30 tests
35:10
Is probably the idea before you had a world cup and you can perform
35:14
So I think the hardest thing and this is not russis problem
35:17
This is a problem because we're going in four-year cycles
35:21
There's actually moving guys on that you don't think they're going to make the next world cup
35:26
You know some of like Sasha Victor if he's got a bit arrogant then you probably need to give him a lesson
35:32
But if he's just struggling with sick and year blues because people have worked an out of it
35:36
Then you've got to give someone like that you don't have to plan
35:39
But you've got to keep him in the squad and keep giving him the confidence
35:44
I definitely don't think his arrogance
35:46
I mean I was to game the other day he walked almost
35:49
Under the media to go and greet and say listen. It's nice to meet you sir
35:53
Very humble guy. I think it's just the expectation in your first year when you run on no one is expecting anything
36:00
And all of a sudden you do all these things that no one
36:03
Hasn't seen for a long time the fly off do and now all of a sudden if he goes out
36:09
And he just got a normal game just to his basics everyone's asking listen
36:13
We're not seeing that magic that he needs to bring and he needs to fight through that as well
36:18
I mean all social media the expectations
36:21
What they want from him so it's all just
36:25
Going through that and just listen. I can go through a game just doing with the basics right next game
36:30
They might be opportunity to show some magic
36:32
So I think it's just that second year blues
36:35
We need to know this going to be a lot of expectation especially from the fans probably not the coaches that much
36:41
But from the fans from social media what they want from him. So he just needs to fight through that one of his humble
36:48
They should keep him because like it's it's Andrew and I'll throw to you like you you know
36:52
We just spoke about fit Russell, you know
36:55
I mean Sasha's going to be a special player, right?
36:57
So you got to have that confidence opposition
37:01
You know will be changing the way they lose forwards run at him, you know trying to trap him looking at a step making sure they
37:06
You know throw some bait out there for him. So you know if he's a humble man then as long as he stays involved
37:12
He'll you know he'll have to fight for it
37:14
But as long as he stays involved then he'd be fine
37:17
Yeah, and humility obviously all often gets kind of confused and the personality and other
37:23
Huge to be it over Henry Pollock and and you know, he's loved and hated and he's very charismatic
37:28
Is that what we want it seems to be rattling a few people. They're not loving the way he behaves
37:32
I think that's perfect for us. So if he is if he's not humble
37:37
I know there's no indication that he isn't victor because you know better than any of us
37:40
But just even just talking about player young players in general if they've got a bit of a swagger us old
37:46
Older generation that that's poison to us. We hate that. It's not in keeping with the teams that we grew up in
37:52
But some of us need to swallow our pride with some of these young players coming through because that's what allow us him to thrive
37:59
And then jk to your point or victor as you made that point second season syndrome is such a real thing
38:05
All of a sudden like these young players are protected by not realizing what's expected from them
38:10
Are not realizing how much pressure they're in they just go out there and just play rugby because
38:15
This is the game. I've grown up playing and I love it
38:17
And that's it and then you start overthinking you start analyzing you start
38:22
The intensity gets there and then you start realizing oh my god
38:25
There's a lot expected from me, especially as a 10 and especially in South Africa
38:29
So comment to terms with that
38:31
I would imagine would be the making of someone as well
38:34
Rear like working out how to get the best out of yourself
38:38
Whenever you realize more is expected is is a skill set to to develop
38:43
So it's it's important that they get through that and they're supported through that victor
38:47
Ricardo you had second-year syndrome when when you were playing at Dila Selmaid and I came along as the halfback because
38:53
I remember taking the kicking off you because you kept missing
38:56
Shots ago. No, I missed the easy ones. I was very good at the hard ones
39:02
This is my that was my strength second-year syndrome. I think if there's any players that watch this probably don't but
39:09
You know, it is one of the best things that happened to me guys was I didn't get selected for the all blacks in my first year
39:16
um, I still had second-year syndrome
39:20
Um from a playing point of view because people had worked me out
39:22
But I didn't have that pressure from the media which was lucky
39:26
Is everyone saying I should have made it and I didn't and so the second year was way way easier
39:31
From a media point of view but the but the but the pressure
39:37
That second-year syndrome is a real thing and it's a real battle to get through
39:41
Can I just point out jk when you talk about pressure from the media
39:44
There was one newspaper and one television station when you were playing
39:48
It wasn't bad and they're in black and white but the Sunday star used to put you on the front page of it
39:53
Yeah, it's let's talk about the all blacks for a second
39:57
um
39:58
So a tight game against France in that third test. Were they lucky to win?
40:02
I think that I enjoyed the whole series and I enjoyed the whole series because I felt that
40:08
first test jitters second test dominant third test razor completely changed the football team
40:14
And I think um, you know, he's been criticised in the past for not having the courage to do that
40:19
People wanted him to do it in his first year
40:21
But I understand why he didn't he wanted to win as many test matches as possible
40:25
But we basically
40:27
Rotated the squad and I think they had another first test moment
40:31
France were very good again. I mean, you know, I think the French defences some of the best in the world
40:37
So I think like Victor said about South Africa not perfect
40:42
But I reckon fantastic as a lead up into the championship, you know
40:46
Um, I'm starting to see a bit of all black DNA coming out
40:50
I'm starting to see a style of rugby that I think we need to play to beat South Africa to beat islands
40:55
Um, it takes a bit of courage to play that we want to play
40:58
So all and all you know out of ten you'd probably give it a
41:02
You know because we changed the side you give it a seven out of ten
41:06
Any new players coming through join it you you saw
41:10
Ah, obviously the lock
41:12
Holland, you know, I'm sure you've had a look at him
41:16
I just love I just love believe it or not Victor. I just love big men in the in the middle row
41:21
And you're one of those, you know, he's a big body. He works hard
41:26
Um, you know, and when you when you see a lot come away from the game and he's hit X amount of rucks and made many as many tackles as you can
41:34
And you still see him carrying
41:36
You know, I think he's got a I think he's got a really bright future and we need someone
41:41
I don't think you can win a world cup without a big man and you know
41:46
I think that retaliate was our big man for a long time. We had that great combination with white lock
41:51
You know, I really love Barrett. I think he's a hard worker, but now we've got a big man
41:55
And I really like that. So he's been the standout for me
41:59
You know, I don't think I don't think any of the other younger guys, but I think um, you know do pussy cut if he
42:06
I was
42:07
Really interested to see if he'd step up at the next level and I think he has
42:11
I think he's got a bit of right you spoke about Andrew. I think he's got a bit of you know
42:15
He's already talking to the ref you know, and he's not even captain. He's got a little bit of you know
42:21
Swagger about him, but I just like that he's one of those loose forwards like he he hits people and he wants to hurt them
42:27
You know really good over the ball and so he's he's a real
42:32
Someone who we should celebrate because he could have left our game
42:36
But he stuck in there, you know, he's worked really hard
42:39
He's improved his game and he's been rewarded with an all-black jersey at his age
42:44
So I'm stoked for him
42:46
Um besides that I think you know, it's it's just
42:51
Getting 33 players that can play at test level
42:54
Trimby, who do you think got the most out of this uh this series the France or New Zealand?
42:59
It's it's a great question um, I kind of feel like um their strength and depth at France have
43:06
Developed over the last number of weeks. I think it's going to be huge for them
43:10
Um, and not that strength and depth has ever been an issue in France and we've
43:15
Before this generation kind of six seven years ago. They chopped and changed. There'd be two 15s in every week
43:21
There'd be but there was no established understanding and certainty
43:25
That kind of confidence that they were going to be able to deliver
43:28
Now I had feels like any French team you put out there they're going to be able to deliver. They're going to be able to get up at that level
43:33
So
43:34
They've they've tested that and they've found out kind of how capable they are that secondary or French French rugby
43:40
So um, I mean that was always the thing like do pump picks up an injury and okay teams always have
43:46
teams have an opportunity then
43:48
You know any of the other 14 players pick up an injury and yeah, there's there's less alarm bells ringing
43:53
So really he's the only one once he gets back in the pitch then they fill that hole again
43:59
Um, I think French rugby will probably benefit hugely from this tour
44:03
Um, it feels like there's a lot of other teams on the international scene at the minute that are
44:08
Just in a bit of a holding pattern
44:09
I probably put South Africa in that category
44:12
Ireland are in that category definitely
44:14
And because they haven't had the opportunity because of the Lions tour to to really get some meaningful test matches under their belt
44:20
Like whenever you look at Ireland you're going right will they they beat Georgia and it kind of
44:25
Unpleasant enough night
44:27
Really not, you know, maybe 10,000 people watching the game whatever it was
44:32
Not a great test go to Portugal. I know six thousand people watching the game put a hundred points on them
44:36
And then the next game are in play they've got to go to Chicago to play their old blocks
44:42
Like that's just that's outrageous now. Obviously a lot of the starters are going to be
44:47
Getting meaningful test match experience, but not in an Irish environment
44:51
But anyway down to your question. I think I think it's going to be meaningful progress for France
44:56
It'll still be decent preparation for
44:58
Robby championship for New Zealand as well
45:01
Who do you think Victor is in the best shape going into the rugby championship?
45:06
I think New Zealand and South Africa will be pretty happy with our
45:12
I'm just very happy that we start with Australia and not like
45:18
Ireland that need to go straight into a
45:20
Test match against New Zealand
45:22
So I think it's going to be a stepping stone. We'll probably see closer to our
45:28
Starting or your main 15 or though I still think against Australia
45:32
Russia will still mix and mix mix mix and match a little bit
45:37
So um, yeah, I think both teams. I said this is going to be a very tough year for South Africa two games in New Zealand in the rugby championship
45:45
It's never easy. So um, yeah, it's going to be a tough one for South Africa
45:50
We need we need to beat South Africa. We need to beat South Africa. That's for me
45:54
The only team we need to beat this year
45:57
Because world champion only once or twice twice mate
46:01
Like you guys have been dominating world rugby now for for for too long
46:07
Right and you know what it's like Victor. We've got to get out and we you know
46:11
I thought we had a chance to beat you over there
46:13
It's like I keep going back to sides that win world cups they win
46:18
Big games leading up to the world cup, right? So we need to win in South Africa
46:25
um under the pump
46:28
And we need to win a series against South Africa because they are the level
46:33
I think you know, we were all so excited Andrew when we beat when we beat
46:38
Island and the world cup semi final or quarter final whichever one it was because
46:42
For us
46:44
You guys were leading the way and we would we didn't beat you at lands down road until last year
46:49
You know, we'd lost would lost not lands down. That's not cool anymore, but that's how old I am
46:53
You know, but we're hitting beating you
46:55
And so the these moments are really important for these young guys right and I think
47:01
I think that
47:02
France is in the one of the best positions I've ever seen you know
47:05
That was a great performance if that's not their top lineup
47:09
And I'm not talking about you know, just the discipline staying in a system great defense
47:14
So for me
47:16
We've got to win we've got to beat South Africa
47:19
And at our home and then we've got to go and beat them over there. So that's what why is it so why is it so significant?
47:25
Why is the rugby championship so are sorry is the rugby championship so significant
47:30
Whenever you consider and we're talking about world cups and we're talking about world cup cycles
47:34
And we're still a couple of years away from
47:36
From the next world cup. Why is it significant or is it significant because six nations is always
47:42
It's such a showcase that often coaches come get
47:46
criticism for
47:48
Not getting ready to do that whole four-year cycle and actually that's where I lie
47:52
I don't I think the four-year cycle is a bit of a bluff. I don't think it's actually real
47:57
I don't think player I don't think coaches compromise on a six nations to develop players to get ready
48:03
France are doing it in New Zealand, but um I
48:05
It's because the six nations is so there's so much prestige to winning six nations
48:10
Until your point jk like get back to
48:12
It's
48:14
It hasn't happened in a while so that's why we've been dominant for a while
48:16
So it's like it's like the a key kind of the emotional key we's going we have to get back on top
48:21
We we're in New Zealand we we deserve to be on top of the pile international rugby
48:27
So it's more of that and I would argue rather than the four-year cycle
48:31
Just be as good as you can always be
48:33
When as many games as you can possibly win
48:35
And if a world cup coincides with that
48:37
Maybe that's the reason why I don't have a lot of quarter-finals and maybe they think like that
48:41
I disagree
48:42
I think I think that um to win a world cup there's moments and there's moments that you have to recall in your memory
48:48
Like the biggest thing for us now Andrew is that you know
48:52
The South Africans left us mate. They left the southern hemisphere. They went north for the money
48:57
You know, they chased the money. They left us there. There's southern hemisphere brothers behind. They deserted us
49:04
They they traitors. They left us. But what happens mate is
49:08
When you're a young New Zealander and you've got to fly and play the bulls and you've got people like victor
49:13
And you know South Africa and rugby
49:16
Um, I don't know if this is right. Well it can be brutal in its directness, right?
49:21
And so our young guys used to fly all the way to South Africa. It's a long trip
49:26
Gladly hard then you go and play the bulls
49:28
And they'd just run these massive men at you
49:31
And there's a different level of physical intensity. We don't get that in super rugby anymore, right?
49:36
And so for us to play test matches against South Africa
49:40
And let's hope they don't leave us and go for the money in six nations like they talk about every year
49:46
We need we need to understand you need to understand mate
49:50
If you don't play them all the time it's really really hard to adjust to that physicality and their style of rugby
49:56
Which you know, which is difficult. So our young players don't get that anymore. So there'll be five guys
50:04
Um, who are like for example Holland
50:06
Would not have played South Africa in super rugby. So his first experience with
50:12
Massive men running at him
50:14
Um full ball will be then and so that's that's our biggest issue. That's why we need to be South Africa
50:20
Oh on that point I think um
50:24
I'll go back and start working on my goal kicking. It's never too late and um
50:28
I'll let you gentlemen go and celebrate Mandela Day. Thanks for joining us on on rivals
50:34
Beautiful