Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #112: Interview with Brian Moore, Senior Accessibility Specialist, TD

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #112: Interview with Brian Moore, Senior Accessibility Specialist, TD · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

• 0:12
  Podcast Commentator: Greetings. Donna J. Jarden LBAP and MBA invites you to listen to her bi weekly
• 0:21
  podcast, Remarkable World Commentary hear Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
• 0:27
  insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
• 0:31
  Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
• 0:35
  especially kids with disabilities.
• 0:38
  Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
• 0:42
  dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
• 0:45
  law graduate, and podcast commentator.
• 0:49
  She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
• 0:53
  skills, and expertise in access, technology and information.
• 0:58
  As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
• 1:02
  she just wants to make things better than possible.
• 1:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable World Commentary.
• 1:14
  I'm Donna Johnson, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
• 1:21
  through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
• 1:26
  I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant,
• 1:29
  author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
• 1:36
  You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010,
• 1:42
  I won the landmark charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its website
• 1:48
  accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones.
• 1:53
  And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada out with more than two dozen
• 2:01
  disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
• 2:07
  And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Majesty's
• 2:15
  Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
• 2:21
  When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
• 2:28
  you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
• 2:33
  producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
• 2:39
  gadgets talk back in plain language.
• 2:43
  Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
• 2:49
  everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
• 2:57
  policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
• 3:04
  Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
• 3:09
  let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a changemaker whose work is every bit as
• 3:18
  remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
• 3:23
  Brian Moore, I'd like to welcome you to our Remarkable World Commentary podcast.
• 3:30
  You and I go back many years.
• 3:32
  I won't tell our listeners how many years, but it is a pleasure and a privilege to have
• 3:36
  you. I've watched you grow.
• 3:38
  I'm really, really proud of what you've done and the way you stick up for something
• 3:44
  whenever it matters to you.
• 3:47
  Welcome to my show.
• 3:49
  Brian Moore: Thanks, Donna. I appreciate you inviting me.
• 3:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Anytime. So, Brian, most people meet accessibility as a rule.
• 4:02
  They have to follow. You have spent more than 30 years meeting it as a way of life.
• 4:12
  Tell our listeners who you are and what you actually do on an ordinary Tuesday
• 4:22
  at the bank.
• 4:24
  Brian Moore: Okay. So I am a. A blind person first.
• 4:34
  So that's, that's the, the lens that I bring to everything because
• 4:40
  it's unavoidable, right?
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  I can't turn that piece off.
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  Right. I mean, so what I do impacts my real life every day.
• 4:52
  And the lives of many people I know.
• 4:56
  So my job is actually sort of leading a digital accessibility program.
• 5:05
  So things like, you know.
• 5:10
  We should ensure that our apps and our websites and basically all as many of our
• 5:17
  processes as we can get to and dig into are accessible to everyone.
• 5:24
  And that involves all kinds of things.
• 5:32
  So I mean, I, like you said in the introduction,
• 5:35
  I've been in the accessibility space for basically my,
• 5:41
  almost my entire adult life.
• 5:48
  In everything ranging from tech support to helping with website design,
• 5:55
  like where you're actually in the code to sort of now in a more of a manager role where
• 6:03
  I don't get to be a geek quite as often.
• 6:06
  I still get to do some of it because it's fun,
• 6:09
  but now it's a bit more of an oversight role and audit and providing training and
• 6:18
  sort of trying to influence policy decisions and that type of thing.
• 6:24
  So, you know, my typical day will involve maybe coaching on code,
• 6:31
  maybe meeting with the vendor to push them to make sure that the things that we're buying
• 6:35
  that we're going to use to expose to customers are accessible to meeting with
• 6:41
  senior leadership to say, hey, this is why you should do what we do,
• 6:45
  and this is why you should not push back against this executive order from the
• 6:50
  government that says that DEI and accessibility which was included,
• 6:55
  are bad and against the will of whatever flavor God you believe in and.
• 7:04
  So it's a whole range of things.
• 7:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So basically, Brian, you're all over
• 7:09
  the place, right?
• 7:10
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 7:13
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Enjoy it.
• 7:14
  Brian Moore: I do, I love it, I still love it even after 30 years.
• 7:20
  Means change, but I still love it.
• 7:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Now you have said that you started out at a school for the blind and then moved into
• 7:31
  mainstream school while you were still living in the schools.
• 7:37
  Residents. That is a very particular kind of childhood in that it is one foot in each
• 7:46
  world. What did living in both of them at once.
• 7:52
  Teach you that you still care with you today.
• 7:58
  Brian Moore: So I've heard a lot of people who sort of were in mainstream education and
• 8:09
  had a terrible time, like didn't have any friends and didn't have good interactions
• 8:15
  with their peers and stuff.
• 8:16
  And that simply was not my experience.
• 8:21
  I think part of that, which was an unheard of concept when I went,
• 8:27
  was people get educational aids now, like a full time adult to trail them about.
• 8:34
  No wonder they don't have friends.
• 8:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
• 8:38
  Brian Moore: I had none of that when I was 11 years old.
• 8:41
  I took public transit to school and that was just normal.
• 8:48
  Like I, I took the STM or whatever they're calling it now in Montreal.
• 8:55
  And that was just expected, right?
• 8:57
  That was part of integration.
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  So. It was. I think we
• 9:09
  spend a lot of time now, particularly in education,
• 9:11
  but I've seen it in other areas where we shelter people too much,
• 9:16
  like try and insulate them from the real world and consequently they don't adjust to
• 9:23
  it. Well, and the, the downside of that, I mean,
• 9:27
  there's a few downsides, but one of them is that you don't develop
• 9:30
  the, the friendships and the social interactions that are typical of a kid in
• 9:36
  school. And that I did develop because I didn't have an adult shadow because I went
• 9:42
  places by myself. I don't know, I could go on.
• 9:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But but it's true. I mean, I grew up a bit ahead of,
• 9:56
  you know, of, of your era here.
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  And it was the same thing for us.
• 10:01
  You know, we did this.
• 10:04
  We didn't have an adult chaperones as such.
• 10:08
  And today it's so much more sheltered for these poor
• 10:12
  guys. Right.
• 10:14
  Brian Moore: Yeah. Like the concept of an 11 year old kid taking public transit to school.
• 10:18
  They just wouldn't do it now.
• 10:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no.
• 10:22
  Brian Moore: But, I mean, look at the bright side.
• 10:24
  I haven't had an O and M lesson since I was 12,
• 10:27
  and I'm almost 60 because they did a really good job of teaching me the basics.
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  They covered it well. They did what they call structured discovery before it was called
• 10:40
  structured discovery.
• 10:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Boy, things have changed a lot.
• 10:46
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 10:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh, no. Take me back to 1993.
• 10:53
  And that small organization in Calgary where all of this began for you.
• 11:00
  What did assistive technology even look like back then?
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  And what was the what was it that made you decide this is the work I
• 11:14
  want? So.
• 11:19
  Brian Moore: It was actually an organization.
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  So in 19 well, 1994, actually, that was Calgary,
• 11:27
  the TRC. So I would have been 27.
• 11:39
  And it was an organization that did.
• 11:44
  Assistive Technology for various disabilities.
• 11:47
  Actually, blind wasn't one of them.
• 11:49
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
• 11:51
  Brian Moore: It was mostly people with physical issues.
• 11:54
  So it was things like Dragon and what very limited alternative keyboards there were at
• 12:01
  the time. So it was all dos.
• 12:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Okay.
• 12:07
  Brian Moore: Yeah. There was no windows yet.
• 12:09
  Really? Well, there was, there was 3.1, but it wasn't super widely
• 12:15
  adopted. And I mean, it was a lot harder to get working than it is today.
• 12:25
  It was a lot more geeky and technical and fiddly and.
• 12:29
  Gee, I have to install this, this board to make my speech work.
• 12:33
  I gotta find an IRC and a free com port.
• 12:36
  And like, nobody even remembers what I'm talking about nowadays.
• 12:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 12:42
  Brian Moore: Yeah. But. It was work.
• 12:49
  It was life changing for people.
• 12:51
  Right. For some people, you know, you could use a computer and they
• 12:56
  couldn't otherwise. And I sort of broadened the scope because I,
• 13:03
  just because I was there to.
• 13:06
  Let's talk about screen reader stuff.
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  And I used a thing. What did I use?
• 13:09
  Oh, tiny talk. I think it was.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my Lord. And yeah.
• 13:15
  Brian Moore: You had to have a hardware synthesizer.
• 13:17
  Yeah. But and, and it was interesting because it was only a contract,
• 13:25
  but at the time they, I actually went there to volunteer because I
• 13:31
  thought, oh, it'd be neat to learn this stuff. But the executive director said,
• 13:37
  hey I have some money from the Alberta government to employ some people.
• 13:42
  Are you interested? And it wasn't much money at all.
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  But it was a whole lot more than I was getting on on welfare because Alberta
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  wouldn't give me disability because I wasn't disabled
• 13:56
  enough. Yeah.
• 14:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I don't get it.
• 14:02
  Brian Moore: No. They said being blind is not sufficient to get the what they call the assured income
• 14:10
  for the severely handicapped.
• 14:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Oh, my God, I'm blown out of my chair.
• 14:18
  Okay. Hold on.
• 14:20
  Brian Moore: So, you know, working any kind of low wage job was better than that,
• 14:24
  right? And I wanted to work.
• 14:27
  Yeah. So I did that for close to a year.
• 14:39
  And then the funding ran out and he said, I'd really like to keep you, but I can't
• 14:42
  afford it. And then to make a very long story short,
• 14:51
  I ended up coming to Toronto and working at a place that no longer exists
• 15:01
  called frontier computing.
• 15:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right.
• 15:04
  Brian Moore: That was a adaptive tech dealer.
• 15:07
  And even that was I went because they were offering an internet course which I didn't
• 15:12
  really need, but I thought it would be a cool way to meet people in this new city.
• 15:17
  Well, the next time they ran the internet
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  course. I was the teacher.
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  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Are you going?
• 15:28
  Brian Moore: Well, and then I stayed there for years, like it was on and off.
• 15:33
  But I was there sort of doing adaptive technology,
• 15:37
  tech support to until 2015.
• 15:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Okay. So for close to 20 years.
• 15:49
  Right? Yeah. You were, in your own words, the entire technical
• 15:55
  support and an entire technical support department of a Toronto access
• 16:03
  technology company.
• 16:05
  Brian Moore: Well, one of them there were there were a few at the time.
• 16:09
  Yeah. I don't think any of them are left, but.
• 16:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Tell me about that company and those years and tell me what being the voice on the
• 16:21
  other end of that phone taught you about our community.
• 16:28
  Brian Moore: So it taught me so many things.
• 16:30
  I mean, it, it was a it was a company started by two blind guys.
• 16:37
  Which was a novelty at that point.
• 16:42
  And they made it successful, like regardless of what ended up happening.
• 16:46
  These were these two blind guys that wanted to start and they made it successful.
• 16:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 16:51
  Brian Moore: Like whatever else happens, I'll give them that. They made it successful.
• 16:54
  Yeah, I agree. And I mean, it was a good place to work.
• 17:00
  Like I liked the people.
• 17:05
  Tech support, you know, and I was basically self-taught.
• 17:11
  Right, right. Like I never went through any training really.
• 17:22
  Later, I did like, you know, a few years later,
• 17:25
  for example, in 2008, maybe I took like the jaws scripting course,
• 17:30
  for example. Right, right.
• 17:33
  But I essentially, I started out as completely self-taught.
• 17:39
  Because I was a nerd and I liked to play with this stuff.
• 17:43
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you still are.
• 17:44
  Brian Moore: And I still am. Absolutely, yes.
• 17:45
  Absolutely. I wear that badge proudly.
• 17:48
  Yes. Even when I don't have to do it at work.
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  I still do it on my own.
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  So it was a great place to work and it taught me a ton about our community.
• 18:04
  It taught me a lot about myself too.
• 18:06
  First of all, you can only do it for so long because quite honestly,
• 18:11
  intellectually, it's not that challenging.
• 18:16
  Doing tech support. So if you I got like, I stayed longer than I should have.
• 18:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, okay.
• 18:24
  Brian Moore: Because I got burnt out.
• 18:25
  But, you know, I gotta eat, right?
• 18:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's right.
• 18:31
  Brian Moore: And my kid thinks I should support him.
• 18:37
  So. But I learned a ton about our community.
• 18:42
  First of all, one of the biggest lessons I think I learned was that there are so many
• 18:48
  people that aren't as privileged or something as me.
• 18:57
  And I don't know what that something is because.
• 19:03
  In my experience, sort of, I, I knew lots of blind people and people
• 19:07
  with disabilities, but a lot of them were like me,
• 19:09
  right. They managed, they lived on their own.
• 19:12
  They had most a lot of them had employment.
• 19:15
  Sometimes we didn't. But a lot of times we did and some didn't.
• 19:20
  But. We were functioning adults.
• 19:24
  And what I encountered during this job was a lot of people who.
• 19:30
  Because they never had the opportunity, I think mostly just didn't have the skills to
• 19:38
  sort of live independently and stuff with things I took for granted.
• 19:42
  Right. I didn't know that was not a thing.
• 19:46
  But I remember. Having to train somebody once and I,
• 19:54
  they lived somewhere and I called them up and I said, hey,
• 19:56
  I, you know, I have the address and stuff.
• 19:58
  I have no idea where that is.
• 20:00
  How do I get there? And they said, I don't have a clue. I don't ever go out on
• 20:04
  my own. And I did a double take,
• 20:07
  right? Yeah. What?
• 20:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 20:13
  Brian Moore: But what? That's far more common than I thought,
• 20:17
  actually. Or people who, who live with family because they,
• 20:26
  they don't believe they have the skills to live independently.
• 20:32
  And I think that is because no one's ever expected it,
• 20:36
  right? If you've always been given the message,
• 20:39
  you can't, you can't, or you need protecting or you need somebody
• 20:42
  to take care of you. Eventually you will internalize that and believe it.
• 20:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, that's very true.
• 20:49
  I mean, yeah, I agree.
• 20:52
  I think I'm very sad though, you know, like.
• 20:56
  Brian Moore: It really.
• 20:56
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is. Yeah. Because, you know, I consider myself to be very privileged in
• 21:01
  many, many ways like yourself, but there's too many of our community that
• 21:08
  they're not in the same
• 21:09
  position. Right?
• 21:11
  Brian Moore: No, no. I mean, I have lots of stories of things that happened related.
• 21:16
  And I would never. Share anybody's personal info.
• 21:21
  But I think just an anecdote, one of the ones that really stuck out was I
• 21:28
  remember going to train somebody at their home one time and they said,
• 21:34
  oh, don't let your guide dog go in the kitchen because I dropped the jar of pickles.
• 21:38
  And I said, well, okay, are you going to clean it?
• 21:41
  Oh no, I don't know how.
• 21:43
  But my home, my home care worker is coming in three days and they'll be able to sort of
• 21:51
  pick up the glass and stuff.
• 21:54
  And I'm thinking, wait, what?
• 21:56
  So you're going to be stuck out of your own kitchen for three?
• 22:01
  I said like, do you have a broom and dustpan?
• 22:05
  Yeah. Can you get it for me?
• 22:08
  But it really made me think, right?
• 22:10
  Like, I guess I'm privileged or something.
• 22:14
  I don't I don't know what it is.
• 22:20
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've heard similar stories.
• 22:22
  And, you know, like you.
• 22:25
  What is it? What is it?
• 22:29
  And how have things changed?
• 22:34
  Brian Moore: Well, and I really think it's.
• 22:36
  If no one's ever expected it of you, they won't get it right.
• 22:39
  If no one's ever told you you could.
• 22:43
  And in fact, often the opposite.
• 22:46
  That's what you'll get as an end result.
• 22:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Somewhere around 2015, you started teaching yourself web and
• 23:02
  document accessibility because people kept coming to you asking how to comply with Aoda.
• 23:11
  No potty trained you. So how do you teach yourself an entirely new discipline when so
• 23:21
  much of what is written about it is not accessible to you in the first place?
• 23:31
  Brian Moore: So a lot of it, it actually is.
• 23:34
  I mean, yes, there is some that's not.
• 23:37
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 23:38
  Brian Moore: But a lot of it is. And basically the internet.
• 23:46
  So by then we had Twitter, which and there was a real before it turned
• 23:53
  into the mess it is now.
• 23:59
  It was actually a pretty thriving community with a quite active accessibility community
• 24:06
  where we all shared tips and tricks and hey, how do you do this?
• 24:09
  And how do you do that?
• 24:13
  And I had a mentor kind of, he didn't know he was my mentor,
• 24:18
  but he was so there was a guy who was part of the W3C working group who did,
• 24:27
  who started up a business.
• 24:29
  It was not a blind guy.
• 24:31
  He had other disabilities.
• 24:33
  But he, he ran a business conducting workshops on this stuff,
• 24:38
  and he asked me to come to one of them and do a screen reader demo.
• 24:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 24:43
  Brian Moore: And obviously paid me to do it.
• 24:48
  But I went to the, this three day workshop.
• 24:56
  And I thought, this stuff is really cool. I want to learn more. So I started reading and
• 24:59
  reading and reading and reading and absorbing everything I could and going to any free
• 25:05
  webinar thing that was happening and trying things like writing code and okay,
• 25:12
  this works for me. This doesn't work for me.
• 25:16
  And back to the, this impacts my real life.
• 25:19
  I would encounter barriers all the time, right when I tried to do things online and I
• 25:25
  thought, how much better would it be if I could Explain the barrier and if we're real
• 25:32
  lucky, how to fix the barrier.
• 25:39
  And sometimes that's useful. Sometimes it's not like if you.
• 25:44
  For example, encounter it with a big company and you call sort of the call center.
• 25:50
  There's not much point having that discussion with a call center agent.
• 25:53
  They're a likely not going to have a clue what you're on about.
• 25:56
  Right. And they're not in a position to do anything about it anyway.
• 26:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Frustrating me.
• 26:04
  Brian Moore: Yeah. And that still happens today.
• 26:10
  I mean, so the building I live in has a portal where you can submit maintenance
• 26:16
  tickets pay fees, etc.
• 26:21
  and I actually use it as in my sort of teaching web accessibility stuff in my job as
• 26:28
  an example of how to make a site completely terrible.
• 26:34
  I have a few of those sites I use as examples of how not to do this.
• 26:42
  One of the others is actually our rail.
• 26:45
  Rail company who put some effort into it.
• 26:50
  But like they got somebody who.
• 26:53
  Thought hey, accessibility means more area.
• 26:56
  Let's put lots and lots of area on everything.
• 26:59
  Oh yeah. And it's a mess.
• 27:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You were somebody's first hire at TD Bank.
• 27:16
  What did it feel like to walk into one of the largest banks in this country as a blind man
• 27:25
  I've been told. In effect, we need you to tell us the truth about our
• 27:33
  own hearts.
• 27:37
  Brian Moore: Well, it was pretty encouraging. I mean, he.
• 27:40
  So the guy who hired me actually left not that long after.
• 27:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 27:47
  Brian Moore: But he. I mean, it was great.
• 27:49
  He was a great manager.
• 27:51
  I learned a lot from him because that was the first time in my life I worked at a big,
• 27:56
  huge organization, right, where they had things like very formal
• 28:03
  performance reviews and evaluations and stuff.
• 28:06
  I never did that because I was either working in a small business of seven or 8 or 10
• 28:11
  people, or I was a contractor.
• 28:16
  Like when I worked for the provincial government, I was always a contractor.
• 28:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right, right. Okay.
• 28:22
  Brian Moore: And kind of their token token disabled person that didn't have any real work to do.
• 28:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Don't say that. It's kind of true,
• 28:34
  though. But, you know.
• 28:35
  Brian Moore: Oh, it was true.
• 28:36
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:40
  Brian Moore: I'm too old to have filters now.
• 28:43
  I don't have much filters.
• 28:45
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, but it's the truth, you know?
• 28:47
  I mean, I experience the same thing when I work at Bank of Montreal.
• 28:51
  Same tokenism. Oh.
• 28:53
  Brian Moore: Yeah. And it's demoralizing.
• 28:56
  Among other things.
• 28:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes it is. Yeah. It's demoralizing.
• 29:01
  It's discouraging. And you're saying, what the hell am I doing here?
• 29:05
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 29:06
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Am I here? What am I going to gain out of that?
• 29:10
  Right. But anyway,
• 29:11
  continue on. Tell us.
• 29:15
  Brian Moore: But so when this guy hired me and I, I'm deliberately not naming because he may
• 29:21
  not want me to. Yeah.
• 29:23
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Of course.
• 29:24
  Brian Moore: He might. But I don't.
• 29:29
  It was pretty much out of the gate. Like he gave me real work to do.
• 29:34
  And I thought, oh, this is kind of refreshing.
• 29:37
  Like I'm actually contributing.
• 29:40
  Yeah. And. And I did raise things that people hadn't
• 29:49
  thought of or, or knew, like didn't even know about that they should
• 29:54
  have known about as far as I'm concerned.
• 29:57
  I think the best example was one of the things you can do with an app,
• 30:04
  a banking app is deposit checks.
• 30:08
  Well, not if you're blind.
• 30:10
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You can't know unless I'm missing something
• 30:14
  myself. I don't.
• 30:15
  Brian Moore: Know. No, it's all of them.
• 30:17
  I I've done a lot of investigating since And you have to essentially line up a check to
• 30:26
  get it right. Well, there's actually one new U.S.
• 30:30
  bank and one UK bank that kind of have nailed this.
• 30:35
  But I wish I had an account.
• 30:36
  I don't have an account either because I'd love to see actually see the experience.
• 30:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 30:44
  Brian Moore: But when I came, I said, for example, that I can't do this.
• 30:51
  I can go deposit in the machine, but that means I have to go to the branch.
• 30:56
  Right. But I can't do it in the app.
• 31:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No.
• 31:01
  Brian Moore: Well, once or once or twice I was successful,
• 31:04
  but it was a fluke. And they said, oh, we never thought of that.
• 31:10
  And there were many other things.
• 31:12
  Right. Like so I would for example, go on our Mortgage stuff and say,
• 31:21
  you know, here's a barrier, here's a barrier. Here's because the people
• 31:25
  that were testing aren't actually users, right?
• 31:30
  They're people who, who have been told, okay,
• 31:34
  well, you have to test for this, but they don't use it. So they don't know
• 31:37
  what it's supposed to do.
• 31:38
  And my argument is if you don't know what it's supposed to do, you
• 31:40
  can't know if it's wrong.
• 31:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well that's true. I mean, if I don't know what I'm supposed to do,
• 31:47
  how the hell can I test it?
• 31:49
  Brian Moore: Right.
• 31:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Brian Moore: Okay. And, I mean, then there were other issues,
• 31:57
  like with real estate and stuff.
• 31:58
  Like with our building, for example, we have.
• 32:03
  What they call destination dispatch elevators,
• 32:07
  which are the ones where there's a touch screen and you tell it which floor you want
• 32:11
  and it tells you which elevator to
• 32:13
  take. Okay.
• 32:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 32:17
  Brian Moore: And it had a quote unquote quote.
• 32:19
  Accessibility mode. Very much in quotes that I don't think anyone's ever tried until I
• 32:27
  showed up and I said, hey, this is crap.
• 32:32
  It doesn't work properly.
• 32:36
  And here's what's wrong.
• 32:37
  Here's what it's doing.
• 32:38
  Here's what it's not doing.
• 32:41
  And I have to use this thing many, many times a day because I have meetings on
• 32:47
  all different floors of our building.
• 32:49
  I mean, we've moved since then, but our new building has that system too.
• 32:56
  But people, I mean, now that I've been there eight years,
• 33:02
  what I hear is that, you know, people respect me.
• 33:06
  They say, you know what you're doing.
• 33:09
  You give good counsel.
• 33:13
  You can convey information to different audiences.
• 33:16
  Well, so apparently I'm respected.
• 33:20
  At least that's what they said.
• 33:22
  That's what they said in my performance review.
• 33:24
  I don't know if it's true.
• 33:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Of course it's true. But you know, that's I think that's a great compliment for
• 33:33
  people, especially to us folks who are vision impaired.
• 33:37
  Right. You are respected because you know what you're saying.
• 33:41
  I mean, yeah, I kind of wonder sometimes if people really think of us as being.
• 33:48
  Do you know what I'm saying?
• 33:51
  Brian Moore: Yeah. Oh, that's absolutely a thing still.
• 33:55
  And I think. The truth is we're going to have to work a lot harder to prove ourselves than
• 34:02
  other people will. That's just the reality.
• 34:05
  Yeah. But it's not impossible.
• 34:08
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, there's a lot of hard.
• 34:10
  Brian Moore: It's hard and it's hard.
• 34:11
  And it continues to be hard.
• 34:13
  Like every I again, I, I'm too old to have filters every day.
• 34:19
  There are barriers I encounter, and sometimes they're still demoralizing and
• 34:24
  I get exhausted and think, how long can I keep doing this?
• 34:28
  For example, as a a people manager, I encountered things where,
• 34:33
  okay, I have to do forms for people that report to me and those forms aren't
• 34:39
  accessible. Well, now I have a problem, right?
• 34:42
  They have a right to expect that that stuff will be confidential.
• 34:47
  So I can't ask a teammate to help me.
• 34:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no you
• 34:51
  can't. Wow. So what?
• 34:55
  Brian Moore: So there's workarounds.
• 35:01
  Engage people in different higher up not specifically for that,
• 35:07
  but so one of the funny story, one of the things I had to do when I started,
• 35:12
  they did use this third party company to do a pretty in-depth background check.
• 35:18
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 35:19
  Brian Moore: Including fact checking, like the standard stuff.
• 35:22
  Criminal record check.
• 35:23
  Most vulnerable sector.
• 35:25
  Although I don't know why they did vulnerable sector, but they did it. But they also fact
• 35:31
  checked your resume, which they didn't do very well.
• 35:38
  Because they didn't know what half the stuff was like,
• 35:40
  some of the certifications I had and stuff.
• 35:43
  And they just said, oh, we don't know how to find that. And you could
• 35:45
  have found it in a two minute search.
• 35:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 35:49
  Brian Moore: To verify it, but it was completely inaccessible.
• 35:54
  And I called the company and they, you know,
• 35:56
  they said, we don't care.
• 35:58
  Reach out to your employer, talk to them about it.
• 36:01
  Yeah. So I got my, at the time, 11 year old kid to sign,
• 36:08
  fill out and sign my background check on.
• 36:17
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my lord.
• 36:19
  Brian Moore: And I've told my employer this many times since,
• 36:21
  right? That technically I never signed the background check my 11 year old kid did.
• 36:26
  He did it at my direction.
• 36:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Of course, but still, he was 11 years old.
• 36:30
  I mean, I wonder what was going through Graham's mind.
• 36:34
  Brian Moore: It's not like he can enter into a contract at 11 years old.
• 36:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wonder what he was thinking.
• 36:41
  Did he ever share his thoughts?
• 36:43
  Brian Moore: No, I don't think he cared.
• 36:44
  It's just like, okay, dad needs me to help him with this thing.
• 36:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, I'll help him out.
• 36:49
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Fine. There is a real difference between reading and audit
• 37:02
  that somebody else wrote, and putting your own hands on a product that
• 37:10
  your own screen reader.
• 37:14
  What do you catch that an automated scan would never catch and that a sighted tester
• 37:24
  would never catch either.
• 37:27
  Brian Moore: So there are several things.
• 37:28
  First of all, automated scanning.
• 37:31
  It certainly has value.
• 37:33
  Yeah. But it can't catch everything.
• 37:36
  And it doesn't even pretend to catch everything.
• 37:39
  Like short of the companies claiming AI magic.
• 37:47
  Automated. Sorry.
• 37:55
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You okay?
• 37:58
  Brian Moore: Yeah. I made it. Scans typically can catch about 30% to 40% of accessibility
• 38:07
  issues. Things like code mistakes.
• 38:15
  Color contrast because that's easy, right?
• 38:18
  It's a binary for the most part with a machine can do it.
• 38:21
  But. There are many things that a machine will never be able to tell.
• 38:31
  Like, okay, a machine can tell you, for example,
• 38:35
  if an image has an alternative text, right?
• 38:39
  But it can't tell you if it's any good.
• 38:41
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Right. Yeah.
• 38:43
  Brian Moore: I mean, it could, they could just could just be a space character and that will pass an
• 38:47
  automated check with a machine because there's something there.
• 38:56
  It can't tell you. Does your heading structure make sense?
• 39:03
  You know, are your headings logical on a page?
• 39:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Right.
• 39:09
  Brian Moore: I can tell you if your form fields have labels,
• 39:11
  but it can't tell you if they're the right labels.
• 39:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right, right. Right. Yeah.
• 39:18
  Yeah. Understood.
• 39:22
  Brian Moore: It can't tell you. Is it easy for someone to go through this process?
• 39:33
  Those are things that you need a human.
• 39:38
  And it helps, like I said before, if that human has some idea what's the
• 39:44
  expected behavior. So has actually had some experience using the tools that they're
• 39:52
  supposed to test with.
• 39:58
  So for example, a machine can never tell you that if someone is zooming their screen,
• 40:07
  this piece of text is going to get cut off.
• 40:12
  Only human can do that.
• 40:15
  Now, I can't do that. I can make guesses.
• 40:22
  Or for example, things like colors.
• 40:24
  I can't tell you if someone's if the colors are accessible,
• 40:29
  like passing or not, because even the tools to check it aren't actually accessible.
• 40:35
  Okay. But that's, you can use automation to a point for that.
• 40:45
  So automation has a place and a good place, like particularly because on something large,
• 40:52
  like a bank site, a lot of your issues will be in what they call in templates.
• 40:59
  Right. So yeah, you know, it'll be on a thousand pages that are based
• 41:03
  off that template. So if you fix it once, you'll fix a thousand pages.
• 41:07
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Okay. Brian, you and I share
• 41:17
  something very painful.
• 41:21
  I said a certification exam with every one of my accommodations approved.
• 41:28
  And I still could not finish it because nobody in that room could describe the
• 41:36
  diagrams to me. You have told me that your experience was almost identical roughly
• 41:45
  two decades earlier. Would you walk our listeners through what happened to you that
• 41:55
  day and tell us whether anyone ever acknowledged it afterwards?
• 42:04
  Brian Moore: So yes, I will. So in 2010, I started taking
• 42:14
  Cisco courses because I wanted to get the certified Cisco Certified Network Architect
• 42:21
  designation, which is really nerdy.
• 42:25
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes.
• 42:26
  Brian Moore: But it's in my my love hobby area that I love,
• 42:31
  which is networks and network security and that sort of thing.
• 42:38
  At the time, there was a project out of the University of Perth in Western Australia.
• 42:49
  Called the Cisco Academy for the Visually impaired.
• 42:52
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh okay.
• 42:55
  Brian Moore: And they. Did a really good job of sort of teaching some of the sort of beginning level
• 43:04
  courses And giving you accessible material, which was all great.
• 43:13
  And a lot of work and they did a really good job.
• 43:16
  Thanks, doctor. Ian Murray.
• 43:18
  I don't know what ever happened to him, but he was sort of the guy that led that
• 43:23
  project. But then you get to the exam and
• 43:35
  you could get a reader for the exam.
• 43:40
  But the problem is that much of those exams are based on diagrams and context.
• 43:50
  In those diagrams is everything.
• 43:53
  It's critical that whoever's trying to convey that information has some clue what they're
• 44:02
  on about And what you suggested in your articles is absolutely the solution that the
• 44:10
  descriptive text for those diagrams should be standardized and come from the provider.
• 44:14
  It should not be up to the reader because.
• 44:19
  It's impossible for a reader to neutrally convey that information,
• 44:25
  right? If they know too much about the subject matter, they're probably going to
• 44:31
  slant their description to give you a more correct answer,
• 44:36
  because they can't help it, right? Because they know what they're reading
• 44:39
  and they understand it.
• 44:42
  But if they don't know, they won't know enough to describe,
• 44:48
  describe it. And.
• 44:59
  That's a blocker when it comes to these exams You can't complete them without being able to
• 45:07
  read and interpret those diagrams.
• 45:11
  And while it's the exam paper taker's job to glean the correct information out of
• 45:21
  those diagrams. They're very complicated.
• 45:29
  You need to ask a ton of questions that someone who isn't familiar with the material
• 45:34
  will probably really struggle to answer.
• 45:40
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 45:41
  Brian Moore: And what I discovered was that as you get further,
• 45:47
  even if you pass that hurdle, then you get into virtualized lab exams,
• 45:54
  which were on simulators.
• 45:58
  And that was also completely inaccessible.
• 46:00
  So I would have even had I got past that hurdle,
• 46:04
  if I wanted to proceed any further, I would have been stuck again with another
• 46:08
  system with no alternatives.
• 46:13
  The only I mean, the people in Australia acknowledged this was a thing.
• 46:20
  The only other actual acknowledgement I got was actually from a lawyer from the
• 46:26
  NFB in the States.
• 46:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 46:31
  Brian Moore: I forget her name, but they were trying to sort of push this issue forward.
• 46:40
  And I was sort of keen to participate, but then at that point in my life,
• 46:44
  lots of life was happening.
• 46:46
  So I kind of got sidetracked.
• 46:53
  But yeah, I mean, when I read your series of articles,
• 46:56
  it's like, well, we really haven't
• 46:58
  progressed, have we?
• 46:59
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. What do we do about this?
• 47:03
  And this is my final question to you because my clock was winding down.
• 47:06
  What what can we do?
• 47:10
  Brian Moore: Well, I think. We need to I mean, it's always going to be a problem,
• 47:18
  right? Getting certifications is really tough.
• 47:24
  Like, I mean, more recently I tried to get project management certification because I
• 47:30
  thought that would actually be somewhat useful in my day to day work,
• 47:34
  which would. And I ran into very similar barriers.
• 47:42
  I got to a certain point in the course material and then I started hitting the,
• 47:50
  you need to create these color coded charts and various things.
• 47:54
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 47:59
  Brian Moore: So I don't know what the answer is.
• 48:01
  I mean, I think the answer for a lot of it is,
• 48:06
  is if we're going to offer certifications, things like alternative descriptions for
• 48:12
  diagrams must be provided by the test provider.
• 48:16
  There's no way around that.
• 48:19
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, no.
• 48:21
  Brian Moore: And ideally not use a reader, use a computer.
• 48:26
  Because a reader, it's too hard with a reader.
• 48:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Because everybody interprets things differently.
• 48:32
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 48:33
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Picture's worth a thousand words.
• 48:34
  Brian Moore: Yeah. I want and and I can go faster with a computer and I can query.
• 48:39
  I can query back. Oh. What did it say three sentences ago?
• 48:42
  Yeah. That's not so easy with the reader.
• 48:44
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, because they get tired.
• 48:47
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 48:47
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They get frustrated. Yeah.
• 48:49
  And and, you know, when they say the second time,
• 48:52
  it may not be the same as the first time.
• 48:54
  Brian Moore: Yeah. Yeah. It's not I mean.
• 49:00
  I don't know if many of the tests for any certifications are accessible.
• 49:06
  And I'm not sure about, for example, the certification actual exam
• 49:12
  because I never finished the course material because I ran into too many barriers.
• 49:17
  I mean, I learned a lot of good stuff that I actually use,
• 49:21
  but I don't have the paper.
• 49:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, that's the same for me. I mean, I learned a lot in my cybersecurity course,
• 49:28
  but I don't have the paper.
• 49:30
  Where am I going to go?
• 49:33
  I have nowhere to go.
• 49:35
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 49:39
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Kind of a down note to end this really, really interesting.
• 49:42
  Brian Moore: Yeah. I mean. I in a way it's good.
• 49:48
  So I can put a positive spin on it this way.
• 49:52
  It's a good problem to have because more of us are getting to the position where we care
• 49:56
  about that stuff?
• 49:58
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, right.
• 50:01
  Brian Moore: Where we're getting into we want professional certifications in,
• 50:06
  you know, whatever. Discipline. Yeah.
• 50:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So with the caring be enough for us to come together to push
• 50:19
  these providers.
• 50:25
  Brian Moore: I don't know if there's enough of us yet, but we're getting there.
• 50:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 50:30
  Brian Moore: Now, in some ways, I think we've regressed over the past few years.
• 50:37
  Because there's, there is quite a, you know,
• 50:39
  a real push. Against marginalized groups.
• 50:45
  Like, I mean, it started as a sort of anti Dei push,
• 50:48
  but accessibility got caught up in that.
• 50:50
  Right. And it's not just the US government.
• 50:53
  Right. It's That gave a lot of people permission to say the quiet bits out loud
• 51:01
  that they wouldn't say before.
• 51:09
  But I still think. We're progressing.
• 51:14
  It's just not as quickly as I'd like.
• 51:17
  I think we've regressed a bit in the last couple of years,
• 51:21
  but I think we'll get back.
• 51:25
  And I mean, I'm far closer to the end of my career than the beginning.
• 51:29
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So am I.
• 51:30
  Brian Moore: But. But You know, I, I'll never
• 51:39
  stop sort of pushing for this stuff even if I'm not working.
• 51:44
  It's just too ingrained in who I am as a person.
• 51:51
  And some fights are worth having.
• 51:54
  I mean, some sometimes.
• 51:56
  I mean, I've always I always say to people, you pick your battles, right? Some things are
• 51:59
  just not worth the struggle.
• 52:00
  Not worth the effort.
• 52:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. You pick your battles and like you like.
• 52:07
  Brian Moore: I just don't take Uber because I get sick of being refused.
• 52:12
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
• 52:13
  Brian Moore: So I'll just keep my money.
• 52:15
  And I mean, occasionally that's a battle worth having,
• 52:17
  but mostly not. I don't care.
• 52:19
  Just take transit. Which maybe is conceding, but ultimately,
• 52:25
  I just want to live my life.
• 52:29
  And that has to be the end goal.
• 52:32
  You know, I, I'm all about being an advocate.
• 52:34
  I love doing it. I, I don't mind doing it, but I also just get on with life.
• 52:42
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. There comes a point when you say, you know, I got to enjoy the rest of my life.
• 52:47
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 52:48
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you pick your battles and you go on and.
• 52:53
  Brian Moore: And, some battles you don't win.
• 52:54
  Like, I had a years long battle with Toronto District School Board to try and get an
• 52:59
  accessible report card.
• 53:02
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh.
• 53:03
  Brian Moore: Which was ultimately not successful.
• 53:05
  And now it doesn't matter anymore.
• 53:07
  They won. But.
• 53:11
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I mean, you know.
• 53:13
  Brian Moore: Now I don't have a stake in that game.
• 53:16
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No. Because your son is is
• 53:19
  finished. He's done.
• 53:20
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 53:22
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It takes a lot for someone to admit you didn't get what you wanted.
• 53:26
  And I haven't gotten what I wanted in many instances.
• 53:29
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 53:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But you got to draw the line and move on, you know?
• 53:35
  Brian Moore: Yeah. I mean, advocacy is great, and it's good and worth doing.
• 53:40
  Absolutely. But ultimately, we have to be able to live life and hopefully
• 53:47
  enjoy some of it. I.
• 53:50
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I hope so. Yeah, you still have to be able to go enjoy a nice meal,
• 53:57
  enjoy some drinks, you know what I mean?
• 53:59
  Yeah. Some travel. You cannot it burns you out.
• 54:04
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 54:05
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And it comes to a point where you say, I've had enough here.
• 54:09
  I'm gone, you know. But I want to thank you, Brian.
• 54:14
  I think I said, you know, we go back many years and I've watched you
• 54:17
  grow. I've watched you do a lot of things.
• 54:19
  I've admired your technical skills.
• 54:22
  You put me to shame sometimes, but, you know,
• 54:27
  keep on going. Don't give up.
• 54:29
  Brian Moore: Oh, I won't.
• 54:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I know you won't. Pick your battles.
• 54:33
  And you know, every now and then we would get together and talk about what's going on.
• 54:38
  Especially when Richard comes to town.
• 54:39
  I don't know when he's coming to town again, but you know,
• 54:43
  we should we should have some sort of a get together sometime in the fall.
• 54:49
  Brian Moore: Yeah. Sounds good.
• 54:51
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, maybe Melanie or I shouldn't be naming names here,
• 54:55
  but we'll work on it. How about that?
• 54:59
  Brian Moore: Yeah. Sounds good.
• 55:00
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay.
• 55:01
  Brian Moore: Yeah.
• 55:03
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you so much, Brian, for taking the time.
• 55:05
  I know you're an awfully busy guy.
• 55:06
  Say hello to Graham. I don't know if he remembers me.
• 55:10
  I used to call him Little Prince.
• 55:12
  Brian Moore: I don't think he probably does, but.
• 55:15
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. But let's work on getting together some time,
• 55:21
  and we'll go from there.
• 55:23
  Brian Moore: Okay.
• 55:24
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: All right.
• 55:25
  Brian Moore: All right.
• 55:26
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you so much. Hey.
• 55:27
  Brian Moore: Thanks. Take care.
• 55:28
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Take care. Brian.
• 55:29
  Brian Moore: Bye.
• 55:30
  Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
• 55:34
  Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at donna@gmail.com.
• 55:40
  Until next time.