Latest / Citizen Frame / The Witch (2015)

Transcript

The Witch (2015) · Citizen Frame

• 0:00
  Caleb did what cried Jesus. The devil! Thou know it not!
• 0:04
  The devil will speak scripture too! Thou know it not! It's not true! We are damned! Wake!
• 0:11
  Vex the billig, wife, and I will smite Jonas as Abraham would have done his seed.
• 0:16
  Stop it! Stop it! Vex the billig, and I will dash his skull!
• 0:22
  Do you see? Stop it! Do you see now?
• 0:27
  Music.
• 0:30
  Oh
• 0:33
  Thank you.
• 1:00
  Thank you. All right.
• 1:06
  Hey, buddy. Welcome back to
• 1:10
  another exciting episode of Citizen Frame of Halloween month and a half.
• 1:15
  The way we're chatting these out, we're probably more like Halloween month and
• 1:18
  three quarters. Halloween year?
• 1:21
  Yes, that's right. Halloween season? Season of the witch?
• 1:24
  You know what? because people have
• 1:28
  been so patient with us getting certain ones out and so
• 1:31
  forth we're going to pepper in a couple extra and this
• 1:34
  one is an extra and then we're also going to pepper in
• 1:37
  halloween three season of the witch so you're welcome okay before we jump into
• 1:44
  this one we're going to talk about last podcast which is the remake of salem's
• 1:48
  lot now i'm sure some of you heard of it got quite aggressive there's a difference
• 1:53
  between being aggressive and being passionate.
• 1:56
  That's the way I look at it. Now, my passion, my argument, and not necessarily
• 2:00
  toward Rain Man over there, Trevor.
• 2:04
  Don't fucking start me. Do not start me. But it was to everybody.
• 2:10
  And what I mean by that, remakes get a bum rap.
• 2:12
  Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of shit out there, so I guess I can go with that. I guess...
• 2:17
  They're never going to win because no matter what, people are going to have
• 2:20
  a soft spot for the original.
• 2:22
  Which, you know what? I'll go with that. But don't review a podcast.
• 2:26
  Don't review the film. Don't write about the film. Don't see the film.
• 2:30
  If you can't close your don't mind on the original and see what the remix is
• 2:37
  trying to do, at least, you might not like it because you're going to be favored of the original.
• 2:42
  I went with that same way with Salem a lot. I liked the original over the reboot.
• 2:47
  But I found a lot of good in the reboot. And I just think people should not
• 2:53
  be watching remakes if they can't walk away from the original.
• 2:56
  That's all I was trying to say. But my point of this conversation is there's arguments and banter.
• 3:05
  And so I'm going to take this moment to apologize on Trevor's behalf for his
• 3:09
  violent, violent temper.
• 3:12
  Oh, dear. No, I've said nothing. We'll have this in the last podcast.
• 3:16
  And this is a different film, a new podcast a brand new day a fresh start let's
• 3:23
  fight about something else instead let's fight about another film you know,
• 3:28
  what I would say you're sweating over nothing, it was a good laugh you know
• 3:32
  what I mean, it wasn't personal, well it wasn't for me anyway you know,
• 3:35
  I know you're a bit personal but.
• 3:38
  No, I'm just saying I accept your apology for your violent attack on me that's
• 3:45
  what I'm saying I'm sorry, I haven't listened to her.
• 3:47
  We're very concerned about my well-being. Yeah, I'm sure you survived.
• 3:52
  Well, you did, obviously. You know, we're back.
• 3:56
  Yes, we are back. But yeah, we're back. And we're here to talk the 2015 The Witch.
• 4:04
  Now, The Witch is kind of the film that started the whole wonderful,
• 4:11
  absolutely wonderful sub-genre elevated horror. I disagree.
• 4:18
  Let me... Wow. Here we go. See, I'm trying to keep my calm, people.
• 4:23
  I'm trying to keep my calm. See, I'm trying to be relaxed here.
• 4:26
  Trying to relax and try to get this out before I'm really interrupted.
• 4:30
  Go ahead. Now he pauses.
• 4:33
  I'll get him a point, but I'm letting you finish first.
• 4:37
  Well, originally you didn't, though. See, that's my point. Let's see.
• 4:42
  Anyway, this is going to be another long one. This podcast should take 10 minutes.
• 4:49
  Yeah, so I believe the shop genre was coined elevator horror when a series of
• 4:56
  different films were coming out.
• 4:57
  I think it really took off when this came out, The Witch, the 2015,
• 5:02
  directed by Robert Eggers. Now...
• 5:05
  I'm not a big fan of the phrase, particularly because there's a sense of snobbery
• 5:10
  and it looks down at other horror films, and actually not horror films,
• 5:14
  other horror subgenres. Agreed.
• 5:16
  So right there, I'm taken away from it. And this is not toward Robert Eggers.
• 5:20
  This is not the filmmaker's fault.
• 5:22
  This is some asshole who coined the subgenre as elevated horror.
• 5:27
  Yeah, I agree. I think this is stick with what it was, which I think you told
• 5:31
  me when we did the work of man, folk horror or something like that. Yes.
• 5:36
  But elevated just gives it this little snootiness.
• 5:41
  And horror, there's no place in horror for snootiness. I agree.
• 5:46
  100%. I would say the whole elevated horror thing, I think more or less kicked off with the Babadook.
• 5:52
  But yes, I'm certainly, through no fault of this film or Ager's,
• 5:56
  it's certainly been sort of framed within
• 5:59
  that whole elevated horror thing i agree
• 6:03
  that that it is a snobby term
• 6:06
  that snobs you to say oh but i only like
• 6:09
  you know elevated horror you know unlike you know
• 6:11
  your thrice you know so it's like they want their cake and to
• 6:14
  eat it so yes i agree with you there however
• 6:18
  i i would argue to those people
• 6:21
  that the witch is not an example of elevated
• 6:24
  horror like you said it's folk horror it's a
• 6:27
  very low budget independent you know a minimal
• 6:30
  cast totally stripped back so i
• 6:33
  think where people are getting confused perhaps is because it's played so deadly
• 6:38
  straight and it's well no i mean oh you go ahead continue i didn't mean to interrupt
• 6:44
  you well that's okay yeah that's okay i accept your apology there i apologized
• 6:47
  i apologized and let you continue yeah I think where people are.
• 6:52
  You know, maybe if a horror film is perhaps well-acted or well-directed and
• 6:59
  produced, then people are quick to put this elevated horror tagline on it.
• 7:05
  You know what? As I've said before in this podcast, to me, there is no elevated
• 7:10
  horror or non-elevated horror.
• 7:12
  Yes, of course, there's subgenres like slasher and folk horror and stuff.
• 7:16
  But to me, the elevated horror thing is very unhelpful It's the sort of thing that, as we say,
• 7:23
  snobs say towards the genre And to me, there's just horror Along with its many
• 7:29
  other sort of more technical sub-genres Like slasher, zombie films and all that sort of thing.
• 7:36
  This is Robert Eggers' first outing. A couple of shorts here and there.
• 7:41
  Now, when I first saw The Witch, I'm not into this crap. I'm not into folk horror.
• 7:46
  Trees? You like trees, don't you? Yeah, fuck that. Jesus.
• 7:51
  Trees and naked old people. Yeah, we'll get the nakedness in here. Yep, obviously.
• 7:57
  Robert Eggers, this actually did quite well. I think it's mainly because you
• 8:02
  mentioned Babadook and you had another one called Sinister, which was quite good.
• 8:06
  Scott Derrickson kind of reinvented the horror a little bit.
• 8:09
  You had all these different kind of films coming out.
• 8:12
  The Witch, I think, is where folk horror, maybe that's the way I was getting
• 8:19
  going with, folk horror was reborn a bit. Yes, a bit of a resurgence.
• 8:22
  Yeah, a resurgence, I guess you can say, because once we get this,
• 8:28
  then we'll get Hereditary, Midsommar.
• 8:31
  Now, these are all pretty much the same guys doing these films,
• 8:35
  but it was definitely a resurgence yeah yeah
• 8:39
  basically it was mark gaitis that actually coined the phrase
• 8:42
  folk horror and he's went
• 8:44
  on over the last 10 years or so to produce and
• 8:48
  write you know adaptations of mr james stories
• 8:51
  for the likes of the bbc you know basically
• 8:55
  rebooting that 1970s series a
• 8:58
  ghost story for christmas nowhere near as good i would have
• 9:00
  to say as well but yes so you
• 9:03
  know gator certainly in the uk he's behind that whole
• 9:07
  sort of resurgence of folk horror i mean you know which would have had i mean
• 9:10
  we've always had but even in the 70s with the likes of the wicker man blood
• 9:14
  on satan's claw the hammer films and that sort of thing so yes but yes in recent
• 9:19
  years it's definitely had a resurgence yeah and rubber eggers catapulted from this one film,
• 9:25
  he'd go on and get a lot of praise for, Jesus.
• 9:29
  His next train wreck, The Lighthouse.
• 9:32
  That's a touchy one. Terrible, terrible film. Oh, disagree.
• 9:35
  We won't, we guys, we won't get into it, but certainly listen to the podcast.
• 9:39
  It's actually a good laugh. Yeah.
• 9:41
  And then the horrible Viking film, The Northman. Now, The Northman had actually competency.
• 9:46
  He's a competent filmmaker, I can tell you that right now, but it was just, what is this?
• 9:51
  I think The Northman, while I did enjoy it at the time I think it's the weakest
• 9:55
  of his three films but there's still a lot to like about it,
• 9:58
  So to me, Roger, well, we'll dive a little more into what he's coming,
• 10:02
  Nosferatu coming out. So I kind of like him still a little bit.
• 10:07
  I'm giving him a pass. I want to tell him until I see Nosferatu.
• 10:10
  And if it's shit, which kind of looked kind of bland to me, I'm going to walk
• 10:15
  away from him at this point.
• 10:17
  If Nosferatu doesn't do anything, because the North and the Lighthouse are a train wreck.
• 10:22
  Like is the other guy who came out around this time, Ari Lester,
• 10:26
  who gave us Hereditary. We all know how I feel about that shit ending.
• 10:29
  But then he went on to even a worse film, Midsommar, and then he went on to
• 10:33
  do even a horrible film called Bo is Afraid.
• 10:36
  I haven't seen that. So Midsommar was just. Yeah, so this guy's just flat all the way around.
• 10:42
  So it'll be interesting to see. Like I said, I don't want to see these guys
• 10:46
  fail because I like a good up-and-coming director.
• 10:49
  These guys are independent. I like the fact they hold their own,
• 10:52
  and they're going to put in what they want. Leave me the fuck alone.
• 10:55
  With good backing, especially with studios, like A24, who are fucking awesome right now. Yeah.
• 11:00
  The Australia-based production company who's given us some great stuff.
• 11:03
  And so far, A24 has let these guys do what they want. And so we've got to applaud that kind of studio.
• 11:09
  And hopefully in the major studios, we'll start backing some of these guys.
• 11:12
  I would say as well, I mean, I was, this is sort of a bit of a sort of,
• 11:17
  it sounds like I'm sort of going off topic, but I was discussing recently the
• 11:21
  new Joker film, Joker 2, and I said that I'm not really into musicals.
• 11:25
  And I was sort of, a lot of people jumped on me, what do you mean?
• 11:28
  And I said, look you know, it's not that I dislike musicals,
• 11:32
  I respect them, but I'm just not into them.
• 11:35
  So that's basically what you're saying here, you don't have to be into a director's
• 11:39
  work to appreciate them or respect them, if you know what I mean.
• 11:43
  Is that what you're saying? Yeah.
• 11:45
  Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, it can go, I'm not a big fan of folk horror.
• 11:50
  Yeah, that's fair enough. And, but I can appreciate.
• 11:54
  What the director's vision was. All right, listen, we kind of went outside the
• 11:58
  topic, going about Salem's Lot and Trevor's Violent Ramp.
• 12:04
  And now our kind of definition of folk horror and elevated horror.
• 12:08
  All right, so yeah, 2015 witch.
• 12:11
  Simple story, isolated Puritan family in the 1630s.
• 12:15
  New England comes unraveled by witchcraft and possession. Or do they? Or do they?
• 12:20
  Because there is. Or do they? Yeah, because there's a big theory that basically,
• 12:25
  and Egers has left it open, Egers has said people's, whatever your interpretation
• 12:29
  of it is, then that's fair enough.
• 12:32
  But the theory is that basically it's a big mass hallucination by the family
• 12:38
  due to isolation and starvation and all the rest.
• 12:41
  I don't go with it, but it is a theory.
• 12:44
  Well, we'll jump into that when we get to the end. Yes. Thanks,
• 12:48
  Trevor. I didn't spoil it. I just was setting it up.
• 12:50
  I know. Well, it is spoilers. We're a fucking podcast.
• 12:54
  We got the very young Anya Taylor-Joy as Tomazine. Tomazine. Is how it's pronounced.
• 13:01
  It's actually not called Tomazine. It's Tomazine. Tomazine. Get it right.
• 13:06
  Is it? Well, yes. No, it's Tomazine. Well, actually.
• 13:09
  It's pronounced Tomazine, which is the female equivalent of Tomazine.
• 13:14
  Yes, but on this film, they refer to her as Tomazine.
• 13:18
  That's because of their accents, probably. we're going to call him Furiosa we're
• 13:22
  going to call him Furiosa and also I want to call William Fenty from the office
• 13:28
  you know his pure ancestor I'm going to call him,
• 13:33
  I like Ralph Eadyssen. And the only reason I really like him,
• 13:35
  I saw him in the first omen, and he was good. And I like his voice.
• 13:39
  He's got a great fucking voice.
• 13:40
  Yeah, he's got that northern sort of, you know, sort of accent.
• 13:44
  No, no. It's not. No, he's got that deep, frody, froggy. It's just creep.
• 13:51
  He used to read children's stories.
• 13:53
  Well, Danny Trejo does, so, you know, that's fine by me.
• 13:58
  So we got Katie Dickie, is it? Kate Dickie, yes.
• 14:03
  Catherine, Julie Richards, as the gov. I just want to mention him.
• 14:06
  He's in the very beginning. He always plays creepy characters.
• 14:09
  Then he got the little fuckers. Well, Caleb is all right. Then he got the little
• 14:12
  bastards, Mercy and Jonas.
• 14:13
  And of course, the scene stealer, Black Phillip. Yeah, my sprout animal. I love Black Phillip.
• 14:20
  So they're being banished. Now, when they're being banished from their home, their town. Yes.
• 14:25
  Is that because they're practicing a different faith? I didn't understand why
• 14:28
  they were being banished.
• 14:29
  No, it's basically, Fancy from the office, William, is
• 14:33
  obsessed and he is i mean let's just say
• 14:35
  the puritans weren't exactly much fun at parties but he
• 14:38
  is he goes even further where he basically accuses them of not being christian
• 14:44
  enough and not being strict enough with their christian faith so they in between
• 14:49
  him basically walking away and then banishing them the family are sent out to
• 14:55
  the woods basically they're banished from the settlement. Okay.
• 14:58
  That's weird because they seem quite strong Christian beliefs when they're together.
• 15:02
  Oh, big time. Puritans were like hardcore.
• 15:05
  Yeah, so they must have been really fucking up in their aim game there.
• 15:09
  Well, William here is I mean, it's very well written and subtly written,
• 15:14
  but you know, he's basically obsessed with God and religion and praying.
• 15:19
  He's like the big bad super Puritan. So even the Puritans in the settlement
• 15:25
  weren't even pure enough for him?
• 15:28
  Now I'm getting confused. Now you're reversing it. I thought you said they got
• 15:32
  exiled because they weren't Christian enough.
• 15:34
  No, no, it was the other way of birth. It was the other way of birth.
• 15:37
  Oh, okay. Okay. That's why I was getting confused. Because when you said,
• 15:41
  I thought you said they were bad because they weren't. No, no.
• 15:44
  They weren't Christian enough. No, no. The other, no, he, no,
• 15:46
  William was accusing them of not being Christian enough, not being strict enough.
• 15:52
  Oh, okay. So that, so, so, because when I was about to say, because when they
• 15:55
  go, when they go to their own little world. Yeah. They're fucking,
• 15:57
  he's a strong Christian. That's why he was getting confused.
• 15:59
  Oh, no, he's a super-duper Christian.
• 16:03
  All right. Yeah, so there's a nice shot. A lot of horror films always do this,
• 16:07
  and I always go with the Evil Dead when I think of this.
• 16:10
  Now, a lot of films have done this probably since the 20s, but they always like that nice introduction,
• 16:16
  of the family about to go into danger, and it's pretty much just a long shot
• 16:20
  of them heading into the forest on the horse-droving wagon,
• 16:26
  and it was driven wagon that
• 16:29
  is and it and then you see the long
• 16:32
  shot of the forest that they're about to go into yeah they kind
• 16:35
  of the same shot where they're the car going into the evil dead
• 16:38
  going into this little skinny row going into the
• 16:41
  forest and the music changes or the or actually
• 16:44
  there's no music it's just a sense of calm yeah i would say
• 16:47
  that as well the aspect ratio the way this is shot is basically like you did
• 16:52
  with the lighthouse i'm much different than the sort of regular ratio aspect
• 16:56
  it's taller basically this film the way it's shot to he did that to basically
• 17:02
  make the trees look taller and make them more threatening essentially.
• 17:07
  I think I'm probably completely wrong. The film students will probably cut my
• 17:11
  head off, but Citizen Kane did that.
• 17:14
  I think the way he shot somebody, what he did was he, he shot from an upwards
• 17:19
  angle to give the appearance of taller figures. That's very possible.
• 17:23
  I could, I could be completely wrong there, but that just reminded me of.
• 17:27
  Yes. Obviously, obviously things like this work so much better in a cinema screen,
• 17:33
  you know, on a cinema screen or on as big a screen as possible.
• 17:37
  But yes, he does something similar, or he did something similar with the lighthouse
• 17:41
  as well, where it's compressed, you know, to give it that sense of claustrophobia.
• 17:45
  Yeah. Well, I don't want to go that far. I mean, I read the lighthouse. What for you?
• 17:50
  It did. The lighthouse gave me, you know, not claustrophobia.
• 17:54
  Post-traumatic stress. You know. Yeah. I was just, Jesus.
• 17:58
  Now there's a shot which i was
• 18:01
  i'm sure i'm completely wrong where they're praying and they're on their knees
• 18:07
  yes they're looking at this it looks like it almost looks like a single tree
• 18:12
  but it's not but it looks like it's almost a white tree and they're on this
• 18:15
  little hill and they're they're taking time out to pray for their travels and
• 18:19
  they got their hands in the,
• 18:21
  and the husband and wife combined hands.
• 18:25
  And then you get this really creepy omen, you know, the whole omen music in the background.
• 18:31
  As they embrace their hands of the couple, it forms a W. Yes.
• 18:36
  Is that, was that, do you think that was? Totally intentional.
• 18:39
  Totally, yeah. Intentional. Oh, absolutely.
• 18:42
  And yeah, yeah. Oh, definitely. And there is, you know, there is so much going
• 18:46
  on here with Eager's, you know, insane posting and stuff. and it's definitely
• 18:50
  one of those films that improves and you notice so much more on repeat viewings.
• 18:55
  Now, in the beginning of the podcast, you spoiled the film for our listeners,
• 19:00
  saying that it could have been all, it's claustrophobic, you know,
• 19:05
  it's someone else who's doing this. It's not a witch.
• 19:08
  It's not, it's, you know, in this case, it would be Furiosa. Yeah.
• 19:15
  And what's this say? Tomazine. All right, Tomazine.
• 19:20
  And as going through this now, I don't think there was witches.
• 19:24
  I actually think she killed them all.
• 19:25
  Well, there's a lot of suggestion earlier on that it might be her,
• 19:30
  you know, the scene where she's washing Finchie's, like, his top,
• 19:34
  you know, his overalls type thing.
• 19:36
  And she's winding the young girl, Mercy, up.
• 19:39
  What she's saying exactly, basically, you know, about the book and stuff,
• 19:42
  that basically later comes into play for real.
• 19:45
  Personally, I think she was innocent completely.
• 19:48
  And, well, we'll get to the ending and what happens with her.
• 19:51
  Well, yeah, we'll dig a little deeper, but I'm planning to see that.
• 19:54
  I'm going to go with She Did It.
• 19:57
  And I'll kind of break it. Why? Well, we'll start right now. Baby goes missing. Yes.
• 20:01
  She's the only one. She's the last one to see the baby. Same thing with Caleb,
• 20:04
  which we're about to talk about.
• 20:07
  So now the only thing that's throwing me off a bit is when the baby goes missing,
• 20:11
  we cut to, and this is where our boy Trevor went, yeah, this is what I want.
• 20:18
  A naked old woman killing a baby and bathing in his blood and her tits I wouldn't
• 20:27
  call them tits probably knees at this point because that's how low they are but,
• 20:31
  and she becomes a super witch after sacrificing the baby I would say a couple
• 20:38
  of things here actually this scene is actually important for a couple of reasons
• 20:44
  obviously for the plot to go forward but,
• 20:48
  Egers in this here, and his other
• 20:50
  films, has a real obsessive attention to historical detail. So he does.
• 20:56
  And see this thing. And to be fair to Egers, it's not gratuitous, this scene.
• 21:02
  No, no, he's not going to see a baby. Thankfully, yeah. And he doesn't.
• 21:06
  But it's still disturbing. And it's a case of what you don't see is more disturbing than what you do.
• 21:11
  But yes with this apparently what the
• 21:13
  witch is doing here and connected to like
• 21:17
  real historical apparent spells i don't
• 21:20
  believe in any of that stuff right you know but apparently witches
• 21:23
  spells back in the day one of the ingredients along
• 21:26
  with other things like hemlock and stuff for a
• 21:30
  flying spell was the blood
• 21:33
  of an unbaptized baby don't forget samuel the baby hasn't
• 21:36
  been baptized that's important so and then
• 21:38
  at the end again we're going to the spoilers here
• 21:41
  when you see the witches flying so
• 21:45
  it does tie up with what the witch does
• 21:48
  here it's an ingredient for her spell the baby yeah i know that yeah i mean
• 21:54
  you can clearly see that yeah she's bathing in it and her wand whatever is being
• 21:58
  bathed in it and so forth so is he caleb who's always checking out his little
• 22:02
  sisters his bigger sister's boobs yeah well that's another theme going on but that's,
• 22:07
  That's just, we will find out the witch uses against him. Yes,
• 22:11
  going through puberty. He attacks him.
• 22:13
  Yeah, he's going through. So I'm not going to make some sitcom it because I'm
• 22:16
  classy like that, people. Very classy.
• 22:19
  Trevor was about to say something rude. No, I wasn't. So I quickly cut him off.
• 22:23
  Bullshit. I was going to say, yes, basically there's a theme here of sort of
• 22:27
  sexual repression and sort of puberty and all that sort of thing.
• 22:30
  You know, coming of age sort of thing. There is that theme here as well.
• 22:34
  Well, yeah, you've got to realize the parents are these really strong Christians,
• 22:37
  so they're not going to teach them the birds and bees.
• 22:40
  Exactly. Plus, there are no other, it's not like, you know, age, what, like 12, 13?
• 22:46
  There's no other girls, you know, anywhere near them, you know,
• 22:50
  because they basically isolated themselves completely because of the father.
• 22:55
  Now, we're introduced to the best character, which is Black Phillip.
• 22:59
  Yes. And we talk about kids in cinema.
• 23:04
  And this one's a different one i hate kids we
• 23:07
  all know that all right that's no big deal we all agree and
• 23:10
  lately kids on cinema the acting's been pretty good so i'll
• 23:14
  give them little passes here and there obviously obviously anya and the young
• 23:19
  kid who plays caleb are very good then he got these little fuckers jonas and
• 23:25
  mercy now now i'll tell you what i'll tell you what here's here's the funny
• 23:30
  thing. This is kind of weird.
• 23:33
  The kids, the actors playing Jonas and Mercy are very fucking good. I agree.
• 23:39
  And they're meant to be annoying. And boy, they are annoying.
• 23:42
  Yes. This time it's different because it's not just because they're terrible
• 23:46
  actors and terrible characters. They're actually good actors playing annoying fucking characters.
• 23:52
  And I know that was the intent of the director. Be fucking annoying.
• 23:59
  Just, we want you dead. Yeah. And that's pretty much their motivation.
• 24:04
  But there's also... And I've never wanted two children being hurt so bad in
• 24:09
  cinema history until this one. Yeah, I mean, they're set up like that. They're meant to be.
• 24:13
  But they're also very believable like little brats as well. Again,
• 24:16
  down to the acting and the writing.
• 24:18
  But... Oh, yeah. But there's also the strong suggestion that later on the scene
• 24:23
  with Caleb when he's on the bed dying along with, you know, other scenes where
• 24:28
  they're basically talking to Black Phillip who's Lucifer.
• 24:31
  Essentially. And there's also the suggestion that they're behind it all.
• 24:38
  Yeah. Yeah, because they do disappear, don't they?
• 24:41
  Also, during the scene where Caleb is being prayed over, basically when he's
• 24:45
  down on the bed, they can't remember the Lord's prayer. They forget their prayer.
• 24:50
  And that is, again, due to old folklore, you know, all this witchy stuff from
• 24:54
  back in the day, that is a sign that someone is bewitched.
• 24:58
  So, it does, you know, let's face it, There are little shits like him,
• 25:02
  you know, so it wouldn't surprise me.
• 25:05
  Like little fucking Damien's. I would believe that they were behind it more
• 25:08
  than Tomasson or Tomasson.
• 25:12
  No, because if there are as witches, the end game was her. They need her.
• 25:17
  Tomasson is innocent here until the end.
• 25:21
  I don't think she's innocent. I think she believes she's innocent.
• 25:26
  Well, she's being set up.
• 25:28
  Yeah, but it's kind of like when we talk about long legs. Yeah.
• 25:32
  It's the central character doesn't really understand that they're actually involved. Yes.
• 25:38
  Yes. They're the end game. I agree with that, yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah.
• 25:41
  But yeah, so there's a couple of scenes where the father starts kind of,
• 25:46
  he's kind of not doing his job by getting these kids fed.
• 25:51
  And he hides behind the prayer by saying, we're going to fast tomorrow for our sins. Yes.
• 25:57
  Well, that's just code for I can't get you any food.
• 25:59
  Exactly. And there's a funny, it's sad, but it's a funny scene where the mom
• 26:04
  goes, the mom and dad are about to get into a heated argument about you're not
• 26:09
  helping our kids. We need to get these kids. Because the mom is the sane one at this point. Yeah.
• 26:13
  And she is trying to tell him, you need to do your fucking job. You move us out here.
• 26:18
  And before the argument gets heated, like a floorboard up. Hey, kids, you sleeping?
• 26:24
  Yeah. And they don't answer, but they're clearly wide awake and you yelling
• 26:28
  at them, they're going to be awake. They don't answer. So they start arguing.
• 26:32
  That's probably what happened, I guess, in the old colonial days or whatnot.
• 26:37
  Well, there's a couple of very important plot points that come up here.
• 26:41
  What's the rabbit? The rabbit's either the witch herself, according to,
• 26:45
  again, all this folklore stuff.
• 26:47
  Either the witch herself are familiar of the witch.
• 26:51
  It's a her, by the way, not a rabbit. Sorry to be pedantic, but I'm a bit like
• 26:54
  that with stuff like this.
• 26:56
  But yes, it's very possibly, according to folklore, all this sort of thing,
• 27:02
  is a form that the witch herself can take.
• 27:04
  But I just want to go back a bit. there's a couple of important plot points
• 27:08
  that happen around these scenes you know when they're
• 27:10
  hunting and stuff before caleb goes missing first off
• 27:13
  the mother wants to get rid of thomason
• 27:16
  she wants to they want to go back to the she wants to
• 27:19
  go back to the settlement and sell her off to a family basically to be a paid
• 27:24
  servant type thing but also the silver cup of her grandfather's goes missing
• 27:29
  i mean this is a very important one and but thomason gets the blame of it so
• 27:34
  she does but it was actually Finchie from the office who had traded it.
• 27:38
  Yeah, that conversation is not up yet, but yeah.
• 27:41
  Oh yeah, it does happen. She says, no, this is what Caleb was missing.
• 27:46
  It's before Caleb was missing.
• 27:48
  Is it? Yes, because he tells Caleb about it, he traded it.
• 27:54
  See when him and Caleb are out hunting? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 27:58
  This happens when Caleb and Thomason decide They're going to go hunt for food,
• 28:05
  right? And whatever they're going to do.
• 28:08
  And Caleb gets abducted by a big-breasted witch woman. No, no, no. It happens.
• 28:13
  Yes, it is. No, I promise you it happens. And see the scene before where Caleb
• 28:16
  and his father, William, are out hunting.
• 28:19
  So that's when we first see the her. And you know when he tries to shoot the
• 28:22
  her, but it's like, you know, the shot. Yes. Yeah.
• 28:25
  Well, it's then that William tells Caleb that he traded the silver cup for the
• 28:31
  hunting equipment that they've got. the traps and stuff to hunt for food and get food.
• 28:37
  Yes, I know that. Then it is later on that,
• 28:41
  before thomason no you're wrong
• 28:45
  before they go out just your mother accuses thomason of
• 28:48
  losing the basically the cup the silver cup no that's no you're wrong not i
• 28:55
  promise you they yes the no it's not the dad and caleb do the hunting thing
• 29:00
  we know that all right so caleb feels bad because he wants to get some so he
• 29:06
  takes the equipment the gun and blah blah blah.
• 29:09
  And Thomason wants to go with him. Yes.
• 29:12
  And they're going to go hunt and that's where Caleb goes missing with the sexy
• 29:15
  witch woman. Yes. All right? But in between this?
• 29:18
  No, no, it's not. No, in between this during the dinner scene?
• 29:20
  Let me finish. And it's mentioned?
• 29:22
  No, it might be mentioned in some, but it is brought up again.
• 29:27
  You brought up the fact that the father confesses. That doesn't happen until
• 29:31
  they're still searching for the child. Yes.
• 29:33
  Caleb's still missing. Yes. and then the mother starts going after Thomasine
• 29:39
  about you took it, you took it and then the father can't take this anymore he
• 29:43
  jumps in and goes I took it but in between this,
• 29:47
  the mother says Catherine says to Thomasine about the cup so there's a couple
• 29:53
  of scenes actually to do with the cup yeah there's probably a couple of scenes
• 29:57
  but the confessing part happens after whenever I said confessing I meant he
• 30:01
  originally confesses to Caleb,
• 30:04
  that's the scene I was talking about so a bit of a misunderstanding there he
• 30:08
  confessed to Caleb first and he's basically for all his puritanical Christianity
• 30:12
  he's a hypocrite and a liar but I think William is at heart a good man you know because he
• 30:18
  especially towards the end he found it he goes please spur my children you know
• 30:21
  while I was here but I think he's just become completely obsessed and basically
• 30:26
  addicted to religion and praying,
• 30:30
  obsessively and you know all of the whole sort of puritanical Christianity thing
• 30:34
  which was very prevalent of course at the time.
• 30:37
  Well, the reason he becomes more and more infatuated with Christianity and his
• 30:41
  beliefs is because nothing's working for him. That is pride.
• 30:44
  So he thinks, yeah, so he's really, he's hiding behind his faith. Yes.
• 30:51
  Is his problem. He's a weak mom. Yeah, so Caleb goes missing,
• 30:55
  as I mentioned, after making love to witchy woman. Yep.
• 31:00
  And, but he comes back. Well, but he's met someone in the woods, of course.
• 31:06
  Yeah well I said that I just said Richie Woman oh yeah I know and I brought
• 31:11
  it up I just wanted to go back to that because it's very similar to the scene
• 31:15
  in The Shining with the woman in the bathtub I just wanted to say that,
• 31:20
  fine you happy? yes move on,
• 31:27
  please I've been wanting to for the last 20 minutes alright so why she cut him,
• 31:33
  I think it was for his blood or something but also yeah and
• 31:36
  she's putting the blood in the bowl why would she why she do that for a
• 31:39
  spell when she found oh sorry you mean the mother the mother i i i don't know
• 31:43
  i'm assuming with eagers having a real sort of eye for attention to detail i'm
• 31:49
  assuming it's it's to sort of in some way see if his blood's pure or not i don't
• 31:54
  know but i'm assuming there is a proper relevance to that.
• 31:59
  Maybe they could, in some sort of way, find out if he was in sort of old-timey
• 32:03
  beliefs, you know, to check his blood, to see if it was bewitched.
• 32:06
  Now, she does mention that she does want to go back to the settlement to get
• 32:10
  a proper doctor for him. So maybe it was for that, for the doctor to test the blood or something.
• 32:14
  Yeah, I don't know, but I'm assuming there is a proper element.
• 32:17
  It's probably some kind of ailment. It's probably some kind of thing they tested for back then.
• 32:23
  But, so, little fuckers are running around with Philip. Black Phillip. Black Phillip.
• 32:30
  And then Phillip, I don't think the little fuckers are involved at all. Well, don't know.
• 32:35
  I don't know, no, no. Because I think Black Phillip is talking to them. Yes.
• 32:40
  That is happening. He's telling them, listen, your sister's a witch.
• 32:45
  Don't tell her. That's what I'm telling you, though. He is deliberately turning
• 32:48
  those two kids against her. Yes.
• 32:51
  He is turning this family into, and so
• 32:55
  he might be the one brainwashing but
• 32:58
  i don't think they're involved deliberately no no no i
• 33:01
  agree i agree basically it's also the
• 33:04
  song the thing about him being a keen and stuff again it's very much you know
• 33:08
  tan and the reveal of who he really is you know this goat but yeah yeah no no
• 33:14
  the kids are just being used they're all being used as pawns this is just a
• 33:18
  game being played even the witch herself is a pawn here This is Lucifer,
• 33:23
  Black Phillip That is playing all of them off each other And using the witch
• 33:28
  To basically do his bidding,
• 33:30
  Black Phillip's the villain here, the big villain So, of course he is But once,
• 33:36
  Once Caleb dies Yes.
• 33:40
  The paranoia, the massive stages of paranoia start kicking in.
• 33:45
  The mother's already having a bit, but everything, including with the father.
• 33:49
  The grieving, of course, as well.
• 33:51
  Yeah, you've got claustrophobia. You've got religious, massive, massive.
• 33:59
  You've got hysteria. You've got children dying. Paranoia. You've got a talking goat.
• 34:05
  I mean, you've got all this shit happening and big titty witches. Yes.
• 34:10
  So, and this takes place, I could be wrong, I believe.
• 34:15
  I've read it somewhere. I'm probably wrong. About 30 years before the Salem
• 34:20
  West Trials. I think it was about like 60 odd years or something,
• 34:22
  but you're in the right ballpark.
• 34:24
  Yeah, it's early 1600s.
• 34:26
  It's early stages of paranoia, as this paranoia is going to fuel the entire East Coast. Yes.
• 34:32
  That's what will happen with the Salem West Trials. So he's playing with that.
• 34:36
  So he had all this stuff going on. perfect storm everything's fucked,
• 34:41
  but yeah Caleb does die yes I would say as well just as a side note the young
• 34:47
  actor I mean they're all great in this but the young actor who plays Caleb I
• 34:51
  forget his name he's really good actually,
• 34:54
  they're all there to do their job and they're all very good yeah you know and
• 34:58
  it's a minimal cast yes so you can't have that supporting actor coming in and
• 35:02
  steal the show like Gary Oldman all of a sudden he's the extra farmhand you
• 35:05
  know what I mean he's the exorcist but,
• 35:07
  yeah You don't have that.
• 35:10
  He's not, he's not, he's not, and that's deliberate. He doesn't need that luxury.
• 35:16
  He's, this plays a lot like we talk about quite a few times, burnt offerings.
• 35:21
  Yeah. It's more about family dynamic rather than anything else.
• 35:25
  And the witch just comes into play at the end. Yes. You know,
• 35:28
  it plays on their fears and it plays on their paranoia, plays on their Christianity.
• 35:32
  It plays on exactly what the devil would probably do. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:39
  The devil is a trickster, you know, traditionally and historically.
• 35:42
  So this makes perfect sense.
• 35:47
  So what's with the horror films and the men chopping a lot of wood?
• 35:53
  I think that's... You know what I'm saying? No, no, no. Yeah,
• 35:55
  I think he just does that as a sort of... Like, that's his workout.
• 35:58
  They didn't have gyms or anything back then.
• 36:01
  So that's, like, where he just goes out to take out his frustrations.
• 36:04
  Because, obviously, he's a lot of frustrations.
• 36:05
  He has a lot of shit going on. well so we talked
• 36:08
  about that with james brawling the animal horror yeah dude yeah
• 36:12
  i think it's just like a way of like getting it out of you you know
• 36:15
  all of those pent up and frustrations and stuff you know
• 36:17
  due to well basically your children being killed by a witch who's working for
• 36:23
  satan and also your family completely turning on each other so yeah yeah it's
• 36:29
  understandable you know but unfortunately back then they didn't have gems or
• 36:32
  punch bags you know there was a yeah Yeah, true.
• 36:38
  There's a scene where after the mom chucks the kids with the goats into a little
• 36:43
  farm there. I chucked them in long ago.
• 36:46
  Yeah. She insists that they're involved because of the way the kids didn't know
• 36:51
  their prayers and everything that's going on with Thomasine.
• 36:55
  So she chucks them with the goat and that's where things will be fucked up because
• 37:00
  that's where Black Phillip is and that's where he's going to start playing with everyone now. Yeah.
• 37:04
  Well, there's a nice little shot. It's the best shot of the film.
• 37:07
  It's quite disturbing. and it's so simple.
• 37:09
  We get some disturbing shots in the film, but it's a long, again,
• 37:13
  a nice long shot. It's a creepy, gorgeous background.
• 37:15
  And it's just William digging the grave for Caleb. Yes.
• 37:20
  And then the mother standing right behind him. And then as, again,
• 37:23
  this is a long shot and then still a long shot.
• 37:26
  And then you see the mother just walking into the grave.
• 37:29
  Yeah. And then it cuts to, she's cradling her dead son in the grave. Yes.
• 37:34
  And she looks up at William, almost to say,
• 37:37
  just burn me with him because i'm dead yeah oh yeah oh no
• 37:39
  i mean she she's completely beside herself with grief having
• 37:42
  just you know obviously caleb but also the baby as well
• 37:45
  and she even says that she didn't want to she didn't she didn't even want to
• 37:49
  go to new england she would she wishes that she was back in england in the north
• 37:53
  of england you know or home you know but but but she agreed with william to
• 37:58
  go to this plantation but because he was such an uptight a puritanical asshole
• 38:03
  even more so than the Puritans.
• 38:05
  They can't even go to the plantation.
• 38:07
  They'll get kicked out of the plantation.
• 38:09
  It's all William's fault here. He's a fool. He's a fool here.
• 38:14
  And he admits it. He basically admits it. He realises it later on.
• 38:17
  So he does. This is all down to him.
• 38:20
  You feel sorry for him a bit, actually? Yeah, I mean, it's the reason why he
• 38:25
  self-sacrifices himself.
• 38:26
  Yeah, pretty much. He kills himself. No, he does.
• 38:29
  He kills himself. When Black Phillip pops out of nowhere, which scared the fuck
• 38:32
  out of me, and horns him in the stomach.
• 38:35
  He picks up an axe. He looks at it and says, fuck it, chucks it down,
• 38:39
  and lets Black Philip kill him.
• 38:41
  Yes, he kills himself. Well, I mean, he's at the end of his tether type thing.
• 38:45
  So for all intents and purposes, I think he had resigned to his fate, you know.
• 38:50
  He's like, yeah, nobody's coming to save me at this point. He was like,
• 38:52
  fuck it, yeah, you know, enough's enough. Type thing.
• 38:59
  Yep. Well, and then he got the showdown between Catherine.
• 39:03
  I would say as well sorry just before that we it's
• 39:06
  heavily implied that although we only see the
• 39:09
  carcasses of the other goats it's heavily implied that black philip has killed
• 39:13
  the two little brats you know after the scene where the witch is milking the
• 39:17
  goats you know in the hut where they're locked up it's heavily implied yeah
• 39:22
  that mercy and jonas have been killed by black philip or possibly the Yeah.
• 39:28
  Because you see Tubzee walking into the barn and she just looks down.
• 39:35
  You don't see anything. Yep. But-
• 39:37
  it's implied i mean that that goes without saying really yeah and and
• 39:42
  then there's the big battle between her and the mother pretty brutal actually
• 39:45
  yes those dirty old spades stabbing your
• 39:47
  mother in the head it's even before she kills her there's the cut she does we
• 39:51
  are like just along her eye and stuff yeah down the cheek yeah it's it's pretty
• 39:56
  it's hardcore like and it's it's it's tragic you know it's very penny wise very
• 40:01
  penny wise and then black philip starts saying hey do Do you want to look good?
• 40:06
  Do you want a nice dress? Do you want some butter? Do you want some butter?
• 40:09
  Well, yes, that's another thing. Although, obviously. Because that was a sin
• 40:13
  or a luxury or something like that?
• 40:15
  Yes. Well, both, essentially. But it was also. Are you impressed I knew that?
• 40:19
  Are you impressed I knew that?
• 40:21
  Yes, I am. Because I just, I knew it was. Butter was considered a luxury back then.
• 40:26
  But just doing my sort of research today, I just discovered that it was an actual sin. Let me ask you this.
• 40:32
  If they used, I can't believe it's not butter. Is that a sin? Or margarine.
• 40:37
  Well, that's like something Black Philip would do, you know,
• 40:39
  because he's a trickster, you know.
• 40:41
  He would trick them. Here, go ahead, take this. Take this, you know,
• 40:44
  I can't believe it's not butter. It's golden cow.
• 40:47
  You'll be all right. And then they're damned to hell for all eternity for eating
• 40:51
  butter, putting butter on their toast.
• 40:55
  And, of course, we end with a naked, well, at least this naked woman,
• 41:00
  and walking into the forest, and you get a bunch of naked old witches i will
• 41:07
  say a covenant witches i guess it's a covenant witches and they float in the air,
• 41:13
  and that's what's your interpretation of the ending do you
• 41:17
  still believe that thomason was behind
• 41:20
  it all along i don't i basically think that she has she's lost everything but
• 41:25
  and black phillips plan is now complete and she is basically decide she has
• 41:30
  nothing her family are all dead she's lost everything she sees but along with
• 41:34
  the fact that she's being accused of being a witch it's like she said you know what,
• 41:38
  Screw it. I might as well just become a witch now. You know,
• 41:41
  I have nothing else in my life.
• 41:45
  I would go with, I like the fact that she's not.
• 41:48
  I like the fact it's a claustrophobic. It's the shining. Yes.
• 41:53
  None of this is really happening.
• 41:56
  Mass paranoia with this family. It's mass paranoia. And the way her mother treats
• 42:01
  her from the beginning, that you're a witch, you're a witch.
• 42:03
  I think at the end, she finally feels she's become one. Yes,
• 42:06
  yes. Because of the way the mother kept. I agree.
• 42:08
  Putting it into her brain. So at the end, she just dies. She takes her clothes
• 42:12
  off, walks in the forest.
• 42:14
  She'll end up dying of frostbite or whatever. No, no, no. She'll be protected.
• 42:17
  What she sees, what she sees is witches.
• 42:21
  But I think she just goes into the forest and dies. I mean, I quite like that interpretation.
• 42:26
  I prefer the more sort of literal stuff because, you know, I like all that horror
• 42:31
  shit, you know, and with Black Phillip and stuff.
• 42:33
  The scene where Black Phillip actually becomes a devil, you know,
• 42:36
  manifested, is very effective.
• 42:38
  I would say, you know, with that voice, you know, would thou want to live deliciously?
• 42:46
  Or words to that effect. He says, obviously, much more effective than I am now.
• 42:51
  But yeah, it's just a very chilling ending, especially with the witches.
• 42:55
  Again, more complete attention to detail, the way the witches are singing in
• 42:59
  this old Enochian sort of tongue and stuff, all basically factual.
• 43:06
  But like I say, I don't believe in any of that. But it was certainly It was
• 43:09
  a thing back then in terms of There was a hysteria about it.
• 43:14
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can go that route. Yeah.
• 43:18
  Final thoughts, Kevin? At least it wasn't a tree stump in it.
• 43:21
  Naked old man. It was naked old man. Yeah, it didn't help either.
• 43:27
  Yeah, you got a goat.
• 43:30
  Yeah, you know, I don't like folk horror. It's just not for me.
• 43:33
  And I mean, would I watch it again? Yeah, I might. This is the only reason I
• 43:38
  said in the beginning of the podcast, Robert Eggers still gets a pass.
• 43:41
  Even that horrible lighthouse and that horrible northman nasafrachi was coming
• 43:47
  so we'll see what he does with that and that will be my crowning moment or hopefully
• 43:53
  it's his crowning crowning moment where i go okay i like this guy he's 50 50
• 43:58
  we'll see what he can do next because the guy,
• 44:02
  whether i like are you esther stuff
• 44:05
  or i like his guy stuff the actors bring their a game you
• 44:08
  know how bad these films could be they bring their a game
• 44:11
  the actors in this are so good i mean they are they carry the film it's like
• 44:15
  tom kind can cast away very minimal cast but they got to carry that film and
• 44:19
  you better bring us into this family and they and they do it they do it well
• 44:23
  with very with with what a little cabin a little barn and a bunch of trees that's that's
• 44:29
  how they had to shoot with and like you said the way he shot it and the camera
• 44:34
  angles It's a beauty shot and well executed. It's not boring.
• 44:38
  It's an hour and a half, thank God. It didn't overstay its welcome.
• 44:42
  And over 40 minutes of that is just pure chaos from Caleb's exorcism to going,
• 44:48
  you know, it's just this family turning on each other and quite brutally.
• 44:53
  And it is. There's open interpretation, which I don't like a lot of films that
• 44:56
  do that, as we know, but it's pretty much just two interpretations it's open to.
• 45:01
  One, does she just lose the plot and decide I'm taking everyone out and self-sacrifice
• 45:06
  herself, walking in the woods naked, dying, or is she a witch?
• 45:11
  That's pretty much your two endings that you can choose from.
• 45:16
  But you know what? I'll give it a little pass. I do enjoy The Witch.
• 45:20
  I actually thought it was pretty cool. and the whole Black Phillip thing was just fucking creepy.
• 45:26
  A deeply intense classic to me and for me, one of the greatest horror films of the 21st century.
• 45:32
  Yeah. I'm not going to go there, but yeah, that's cool. If you got that out of it, go with it.
• 45:37
  You clearly haven't seen Barbie. We have. We've done it on this podcast.
• 45:44
  It's a joke. I know.
• 45:48
  So, there you go. Wow. We didn't fight. Well, not that much anyway.
• 45:53
  Kind of a boring podcast.
• 45:58
  Yeah, so thanks for getting the guys listening to that one. Like I said, we peppered it in.
• 46:01
  We have Halloween 3 season of The Wits coming, the two Beetlejuices,
• 46:06
  a Pete Atkins Wismaster special, and we're going to move, we're going to close out with Smile 2,
• 46:12
  which sounds like it might be a pleasant surprise because it is getting rave
• 46:17
  reviews and everything that did
• 46:19
  not work for the original, which me and Trevor agree was not very good.
• 46:24
  This guy tweaked it and maybe listened to our podcast and fixed it.
• 46:29
  So I'm actually looking forward to going to see that. I'll be going to see that next weekend.
• 46:34
  I think that's all I've got. What do you got? I'm good. Yeah, all good.
• 46:39
  All right. We'll wrap this one up. Guys, thank you so much. Take care of yourselves. Have a good one.
• 46:50
  Oh, oh, oh, oh.
• 46:51
  Music.