Latest / Luke's English Podcast / Joe Rogan Experience _2536 - Eric Goode _ Jeremy McBride

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Joe Rogan Experience _2536 - Eric Goode _ Jeremy McBride · Luke's English Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Podcast check it out. But Joe Logan Experience Train by Day, Joe.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Rogan Podcast by Night, All Day.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Good bro, gentlemen, good to see you again. You've back
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: up the world of Crazy People and Animals. I watched
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: episode one today, like, oh God, First of all, where
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the fuck do you find these people? You you live
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: in that world? Like you you're in the world of reptiles.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: We should just explain. It's a docu series. It's on HBO.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: It's called Monsters of God, and it's all about the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: reptile trade, which may or may not be responsible for
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Florida having five hundred thousand pothons. Yeah, it's debatable, right, Like,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: it seems like it was partially pet owners who let
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: them go, and partially there was some sort of a
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: reptile research facility or something like that.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Well, there's different theories. So it was a hurricane theory,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: it was the people letting go go. I think the
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: more reasonable one because I had a Burby spy tho
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: in the seventies when I was a teenager. I have
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: a photo of it around my neck.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: What happened to it?
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: People buy them when they're this big, and then when
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: they're fifteen feet. They let them go, because what do
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: you do? You know there is that what you did?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I did not let it go, but what did you do?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I have no idea what happened to it? To be honest,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: I that's weird.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I know you had a monster and it just you
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: don't know what happened to your monster.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: I think when I went to college, briefly I gave
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: it to someone and then I don't know what happened
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: to when I gave my whole menagerie away to people.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: When I went to college, I had reptiles in my room.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Is there an extra level of responsibility when you're giving
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: away monsters? You know what I mean? Like if you
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: have a chihuahua and you said, and your friends like,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I'll take her. I love her. That's you know, you
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: don't really have to worry about your you know, you
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: have a fucking python. You're giving away a python.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: You got to worry about your chiuahah because your the
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: python's in the everglace.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: You're going to eat your chiuaha when it gets away. Well,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: certainly you worry about that, but I mean, you don't
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: worry about your chiuaha being a monster.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I'm kidding yeah.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you have a fifteen foot python that
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: can eat a lot of things and kind of needs
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: to eat a lot of things.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Yea, yeah, Burbie's pythons, Uh did really well in South Florida.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Iguanas did really well in Florida. You know, they weren't
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: there in the beginning.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it, did really well.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Another way to put it is invasive species is destroying
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: the ecosystem.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Well, they're like us, Joe, They're like us. We came
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: here and we took over.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess in a lot of ways. So why
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: did you choose this particular subject for this new docu series.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna let Jeremy talk now. I he'll talk,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: but I'll just a lot of it starts with me,
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: see Jyd blame later.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: We guys did Chimp Crazy, which is one of my favorites.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: So fucking insane. That world is so insane.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Well, episode one is kind of setting the table. It
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: gets better, Joe gets more off the charts.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: When you I can only imagine you watched two and three,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: and four, but and five. Yeah, it all started.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: First of all, I'm a reptile guy, been keeping reptiles
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and studying reptiles for over. You know, I'm an old guy.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I'm older than you are, so uh, you know, I've
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: kept them for I don't know, sixty years, you know.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Plus I've kept reptiles since my parents gave me a
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: tortoise when I was six, and I was catching rattlesnakes
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: in my lunch box and horned lizards. And you got
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: horn lizards and texas here that are really cool, and rattlesnakes.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I've been bit by rattlesnakes. It's not fun. Yeah, by rattlesnake.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's another story.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: More times than one.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: No, I got bit once because I learned my lesson
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: after the first one. What happened, It wasn't good.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Don't get on my foot. Did you experience necrossus necrosis? Brother?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: You know, so normally you would get across this necrosis
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: where youss your finger with rot. And then there's the
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: guy that you know, the doctor that I went to
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: at a hospital, you know, in the the doctor you
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: know in the emergency room, said, the last guy in
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: here that got bit by rattlesnake lost his toe or
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: something or lost his digits. And he said good thing
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: you didn't get bit on a finger, because the necrosis
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: can rot away your finger. And he said, good thing,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: you got bit on the middle of the foot. You're
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: going to be okay.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: But this type of rattlesnake, I got bit by it.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: There's the most venomous rattlestick in the country is called
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: a tiger rattlesnake, but it's not the most dangerous. Most
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: dangerous is probably a majave rattlesnake or an Eastern diamondback rattlesnake,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: but you have Western diamondbacks here. But I got bit
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: by a rattlesnake that had both hemotalkxin and neurotoxin, so
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: the necrosis was less evident with me. It was more
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: like a cobro was starting to stop breathing, and I
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: felt like somebody put sandbags on my chest. An hour
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: into it, but the first thing you sense is obviously
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: the It feels like someone jabbed me with an exacto knife.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I looked down and the rattlesnake was retracting into a burrow.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: I looked at my foot. But then you taste a
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: metallic taste. In about fifteen ten minutes fifteen minutes and
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: you realize, oh, this wasn't a dry bite, but it's
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: not fun. I got a lot of antivenom. They make
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: a different out of venom today. I got bit twenty
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: five years ago.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: And how long does it take you to recover from
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: something like that?
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: You know, the most painful part was the serum six
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: sickness from the anti venom, the lose stop breathing thing.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I remember, I was on a gurney and I just
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: felt like I was going to stop breathing, but weirdly
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: not that painful, but like you but yet you feel
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: like you're gonna die and stop breathing. But the serum
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: sickness is just unbelievably intense for weeks, and you just
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: have the most insane fever and you got these red
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: blotches all of you. But they make a different serum now.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: That one was made out of horse anti bodies that
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: they put into and my body didn't like those horse
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: anti bodies.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Oh god.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: So also, maybe don't wear birkenstocks when you hike.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: It's probably the river sandals. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: got bid. Most people get bit fucking around with a rattlesnake.
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: I was what is this chimming that They used all
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: of the nto venom at the hospital and I had
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: to go get more from another.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Ran out of anti venom after using a wopping thirty
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: six vials. Holy fuck man, Oh they're fucking scary. Man.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I've had dogs bit. I had this one dog. He
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: got bit twice. Yeah, it was a real problem. His
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: face would swell up. I'll bring him to the vet.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: But luckily they have anti venom for dogs that works
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: pretty well. Yeah, he was kind of out of it
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: for a few days. Then he came back.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: How fast the response not bad?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not bad. It was funny because he got bit once.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: He was he was a crazy dog. He was always
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: killing lizards like that was his thing. Like anything in
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the backyard he would kill him. And he got bit
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: by the rattlesnake. And I knew it because I was
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I was out there. I heard him, I heard the commotion,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: I saw the snake. I knew what it was. So
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: I got him to the veterinarian immediately they got on
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: the end. His face swell up, but they got on
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the anti venom and he was good. And then he
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: got bit again, like maybe a year later, and I
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: brought him to the vet because I said I saw
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: him get bit by rattlesnake, and the vet was like, well,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I don't see any swelling and I don't see a hole.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: But he had developed a resistance to it because he
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: had gotten bit once. And so then I got him
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: home and all of a sudden his face starts swallowing up.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh fuck, and I bring him back to
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: the vet. Then he had to get the inty do.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: He was about a ninety pound dog.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: And that was a western dive a back rottlestick.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I got there California. I don't know. Oh, it was
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: in California, in California. Oh so it wasn't out here.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: Oh it was what did me then? Probably southern Pacific rottlestick.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, we we had a problem in my
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: California house, one of the houses that I used to
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: live in. It was it was there was a lot
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: of it was very canyony. There was a lot of stuff.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: But that's bobcast that's the.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Same stake that bit me.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, spooky man. We were running once, we were running
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the trail, and in mid stride, I realized that the
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: log that I thought was across the road was a
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: giant rattlesnake. It was fucking big, man, like the biggest
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: one I'd ever seen out in the wild. And the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: dogs didn't notice it. They ran right over it, and
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: then I ran over it. I was like, oh fuck man.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: And then I'm trying to figure out what to do
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: because I know we're going to have to come back
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: this way when we go back up the hill, So
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I'm throwing rocks at it, trying to get it to
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: run away.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I've handled a lot of rattlesnakes in my life,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: and cobras and other snakes, and to get bit that
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: way is very unusual.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Usually people are.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Being jerks and idiots and and handling a stake and
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: it bites them.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Where were you? We just walking?
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: I was hiking in the mountains north of La just
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: a bit, and uh, I was actually looking for snakes,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, and I didn't see the sake. The stake
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: saw me first, and I was bushwhacking. I wasn't on
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: a trail, I didn't see it, and it bit me
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: on my foot.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: So you have this lifetime experience with reptiles and snakes,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: and so you just decide you must have interacted with
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of these really crazy people and just decided this.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Is the next Yeah. It takes one to know one.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, be careful. The next point of focus.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: Consort where it all started.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, listen. I was, you know, a closet
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: a reptile guy, living in New York City, hanging out
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: with you know, Madonna, cool people in the eighties and nineties.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I had a night club, and I had friends with
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: lots of artists. Andy Warhol and I never really talked
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: about reptiles. Actually, Andy asked me what am I going
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: to do with my money? He interviewed me one time
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: for Andy Warhole TV, and I said, I'm going to
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: buy reptiles. And I actually said I'm gonna buy tortoises
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: and tortoises. But I was pretty closet, but I still
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: kept them in New York. And you know, fast forward
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: when I decided to try to do a film about it.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: I had been traveling all over the world to Amoutagascar
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: and Sulawesi and different parts of South America, trying to
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: study reptiles and especially turtles and tortoises that were very rare.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I started photograph filming people like you know kind of
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: notable people, Christopher Walking and you know Slash and yeah,
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know all kinds of people that I knew
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: in New York City. And I would just ask him
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: to hold a turtle or tortoise and I'd say some
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: words were like PSAs. And I was doing that with
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: these two guys named the Safti Brothers. And fast forward
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: they now Josh has just had a film called Marty
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Sapri with Timothy Shalomy that was up for an oscar.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Little did I know that I was working with these
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: kids that were going to be these new filmmakers, and
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: we were making these films. And then we made a
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: short film about reptiles it's crazy, called Trophy Hunter.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: It's very short. And we did that together.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: And then I said to them, hey, man, you guys
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: are read this new book called The Lizard King. It's
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: about the reptile world.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Let's do a talk about the reptile world.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: And I'd already be told Fisher Stevens, a friend of mine,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: hey let's do a talk about this, you know book,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: The Lizard Kid. And he said to me, how are
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: you going to do that doc without getting killed?
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Eric?
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: And you know he'd won an Oscar for the cove
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, I've got these good guys
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: and do a doc about reptiles. So anyway, we started
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: in two thousands.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Do you think, why do you think you're going to
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: get killed?
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: He read The Lizard King and he said, you know
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: you're going to do a story about this guy that
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: went to prison for a hundred years and this other
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: guy that you know is the Pablo Escobar reptiles. And
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: he just said, it's a dark world. I don't know
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: how you're going to do this without getting killed.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: So what is about the lizard world of the reptile
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: world that makes it so dark? Like? Why are those
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: people do you think attracted to it?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Well, not all of them are scary people, and I
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: would say a lot of them may be misunderstood a
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: little bit. But there's in the case a Mario, there
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: was a crossover with drugs, smuggling drugs and animals into
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: the country.
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: But for a background, you know what, what is different
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: than these other films that we've done. You know, this
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: was an industry story that kind of looks back at
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: the past half century. You know, what most people don't
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: know is illegal wildlife trafficking represents about a twenty billion
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: dollar year industry. It's kind of underreported, actually only after guns, drugs,
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: and human trafficking. And what's really interesting about that is
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: it's there's there's a convergence of all of it. You know,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: wildlife trafficking also involves drugs and trafficking times of guns.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of mixed mixture of it.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Whenever people are bringing in things illegally, they tend to
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: be a risk taking type of course.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: But you know, in the in the kind of pre
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: you know, customs tsa days as intense ave as it's now,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: it's very easy to you know, carry animals and carry wildlife.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That was something I didn't even think about until
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I was watching. I was like, oh god, I remember
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: those days. But they didn't check your bags and they
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: didn't even check your ID. You just had a ticket. Yeah,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and you just get on the plane. So you would
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: just get on the plane with lizards.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: Now most cases, yeah, strapped your body right. The thing
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: with about what was so interesting about reptiles in this
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: case within the trade, is there portable their nature with
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: handles you go. You see in the early episode of
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: episode one, people traveling around the world, you know, finding
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: where endangered animals, putting their suitcase and bringing them back,
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: putting them on a price list and selling them to consumer.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: And that was the kind of early days. I mean,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: the story The Lizard King, but many much you know,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: in our series, it's handful of guys, mainly guys, you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: start a multi billion dollar industry and you see this
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: kind of innovation happen over the course of the series,
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: as you know, as the years go on.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: But when we say multi billion I have to kind
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: of contextualize that. It's when people say that the wildlife
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: trade is multi billion dollar industry, you got to remember
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: it's a lot of its consumption. You know, the Asian
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: population eats a lot of turtles, a lot of snakes,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of it's traditional medicine, a lot of its skins.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: You know, look plant material, alligator skin.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Bags, crocodile skin bags, lizards skin bags, snake skin bags.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: So it's a lot more than just the exotic pet industry.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: But that's gotten enormous In Asia. They picked up they
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: took a page out of our playbook about twenty five
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: years ago. You know, China is now a huge consumer
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: of not just eating these reptiles, but keeping them as
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: exotic pets. That didn't happen before twenty five thirty years ago.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Asia Asia.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Why why does California have a ban on python skin?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Pythons are not endangered, right, Well, it.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Depends on the type of pythons. But yeah, the python
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: skinning business actually is where all the Burmese pythons came
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: from in the seventies that I had as a kid.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: They would skin the pythons, take the eggs, incubate the eggs,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: sell the baby pythons to the United States and other
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: consumer countries that wanted baby pythons. Most of the pythons
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: that are skinned in Southeast Asia, and I've been to
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: python skinny places in Sumatra, blood pythons, reticulated pythons, Burmese pythons,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: but mostly blood pythons. Reticulated python pythons are wild cod
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: and most of them are not endangered, but they're it's
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: but you know, they're less and less pythons out there,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: but they're not endangered. Those pythons, Well, there's.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: A shit ton in Florida, That's what I understand. I mean,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: there's this giant problem in Florida where they're overrun with pythons,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: and yet California you can't sell python skins. It seems
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: like there's a solution there. You know, people want python skins. Oh, look,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: place that's overrun with pythons. Maybe should get your python
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: skin there.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the cooler python skins are not Burmese pythons,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: the ones in Florida, the cooler wise people like like
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Nick Cage and what was that film where he's wearing
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: that python skin jacket. It's a reticulated python.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: That wild at heart.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: That's yeah, wild heart, that's.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Gold and black.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: That cooler python skins just happened not to be Burmese pythons,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: which are the ones running rampant in Florida. Although they
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: should make those trendy use Burmese pythons, but they're not.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Usually you don't you.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Rarely see where it is that's a reticulated python, that's
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: not a Burmese. That's the one people want, that's from
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Southeast Asia. That's not the one running wild in Florida.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Is that that's illegal in California right now? Then that
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: jacket is that?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: I believe? So I don't believe you can get it imported.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I think let's try. I had read something about python
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: being one of the things that they made illegal. Why
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: California bands python? Skin band dates in nineteen seventy oh
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: aimed at protecting endangered and vulnerable species, particularly the Indian python,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: which was on the endangered species list. California chose to
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: pay it all pythons products, rather than distinguished by species,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: created an extraordinarily broad statute banning all python imports. Well
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: that's interesting, I thought it was fairly recent.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Well that's where the laws I think are really screwed up,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: when they basically say all pythons are bad to sell.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: When the Indian rock python is endangered and there are
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a few endangered pythons, but to say all pythons cannot
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: be used for the skin trade and sold in California
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: because of one python out of many pythons.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Welcome to California. I happen to live there. I know
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: what it's like.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: I want to.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I love Austin Bay the way I might buy a
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: house sexy. You now Austin rules. But California's just so
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: overregulated everything so particularly wildlife.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: And same thing in Florida, though with the green iguana
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: eric right, I mean at the same time, yeah, same thing,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: house regulation.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: And then again there's four people. There's forty five types
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: of iguanas in the world.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Do you know that now?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's a whole YouTube community of people hunt
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: iguanas and cook them in exotic ways. They make iguana
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: stir fry in South Florida. Yeah, yeah, it looks good.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know anything about what it tastes like.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: But this guy made like a stir fry over rice
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and they were eating it and they're like, oh my god,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: it's sensational, like karaokee. Look very good.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Everyone always says croc alligator iguana rattlesteak tastes like chicken.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, they eat the tail.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I have you can imagine I
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: have a really messed up algorithm from being involved in
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: this for so long. But that I never came across.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: But the you know the frozen that they yeah, yeah,
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: they use the legs, they cook the legs.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the back of the tail because there's the tail,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: so he's got it marinating ziplocked it. Then it looks
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: like he's gonna, oh, look, he's got the whole thing.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Usually it's the back of the tail, like like crocodiles,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: you eat the back of the tail.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: But it's far.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's a there's a wow.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Look at that.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: He's eating the whole thing. In Mexico, I always see
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: them make you know, iguana tamali's out of the back
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: part of the iguana.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: So you put it in a tomato. Oh wow. And
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: he's got a little saucy's making here with some butter
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: and spices basting it. I mean, why not if it
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: tastes good. And apparently it does taste good according to
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: all these guys that I've seen on YouTube channels, Like
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: they're pretty honest about it, like they bring it to
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: the family, they let the family try it. I think,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: you know, that might be the only way out because
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: they're everywhere in Florida, Like they when it gets cold out,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: they fall out of trees, the trees.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: I love their news reports.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: They're fucking big too.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Man.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: There's some channels where these guys hunt them and some
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: of them are like four and a half five feet long.
• 18:46
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• 19:44
  Speaker 2: The mails get crazy and they get very orange and
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: really big.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: The mail iguamare so beautiful. There's such a cool looking
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: lizard man.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of really cool iguanas. And in our
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: show we feature what's called a Fiji Island iguano, very
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: endangered iguana that unfortunately people in the private sector in
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: this country cannot own zoo's can own them. I don't
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: know why private people can't own them. But the San
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Diego Zoo and the zoo and that zoo can have
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Fiji al and iguanas. But they in our show they
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: literally this.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: One guy says it's reptile magic.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: It's like reptile art. Fiji al and iguana. You might
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: want to put it up there. It's really just the
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: beauty of it, just the sheer beauty.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: It's like yellow lemon highlight, turquoise and.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Green, and it's cool. It's a very endangered iguana.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: So the Florida iguana problem was that all people's pets
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: that got released.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Well listen also, it's again going back to the show,
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: but you know, we the central figure of the book
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: is this guy named Mike van Nostrom and his dad,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: Ray vn Nostro. They ran an enterprise called Strictly Reptiles
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: in Hollywood, right, It's in Hollywood, Hollywood, Florida, Hollywood, Florida. Yeah,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: and they're sort of this like you know, I would
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: call it like more of a fulfillment center for wildlife.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: All across Fromerica. They are, I.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Mean, in any way, there's an Amazon Warehouse, Click, I
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: want a tortoise.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were selling five thousands a week.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Well, green Baby gone.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: To that point. So so the story goes. Dad moves
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: to Florida, starts a business evolves, Jurassic Park comes out,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Jurassic Park comes out. Everyone wanted a pet dinosaur. The
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: green iguana market went on fire. He was selling five
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: thousand a week. And you know, you know, I was
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: a nineties kid. I had a I had an iguana
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: in my you know, my bedroom.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Jeremy's a virgin, but he did have a.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: I had a pedal question that unfortunately passed away. The
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: rock thing, you know, the heated rock you know that happens.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: But but yeah, no, there's sort of so so the
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: story he did a rock thing, this like rock thing
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: where it sits on and it keeps it warm and warm,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: and then I think it kept on too long.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I think he cooked his Mike.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sadly, but I've learned, I've learned a lot, but
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: just but filled with these unintended consequences. You know, I
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: think this idea of a big movie coming out at
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: the correlation to you know, driving you know, demand for
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: pet sales.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Thank god, people can't buy a fucking velocal raptor. Well,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: you know, because people would have them, they'd have friences
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: set up in their yard.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Joe, you've had the colossest people on this show. I think, oh,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: they want to bring back one of those and wooly mammoth.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Well, there's no chance that they can bring with current technology. Now,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: they don't have dinosaur DNA, it's too old. But they're
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, I met the dire wolves. I know it's wild.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: They brought back the.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Diarly dire wolf.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? I mean, if you talk to
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: geneticis what is it is a bunch of different traits.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Don't go down that rabbit hole. It's close to a
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: dire wolf.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what that means, because like
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: we decide what a dire wolf is, just what a
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: direwolf isn't. But if you take literal dire wolf DNA
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: that's seven thousand years old and you add it to
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: these gray wolves, and this is what they did, and
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: they created essentially a dire wolf. It's like people are
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: our going over semantics. Whatever it is that's not a wolf.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: It's very different. It looks different than a regular wolf,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: like a gray wolf. The stature is different. It has
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: a maine it's really crazy looking. They're white, they're stockier,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: they're built differently, like you see, like, oh that's different. Yeah,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: well like what like mained wolves in.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Argentina look very different than our wolf. So there are
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: very different types of canines. You know, wild dogs in
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Africa look very different. Oh yeah, you know than are
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: you know? So yeah, but yeah, I mean one thing
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: i'd just say about iguanas, just since we were on it,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: is that because I'm on an organization called the International
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Iguana Foundation, and we protect iguanas around the world, and
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: people get confused. They think, oh, iguana, that's so common,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: they're falling out of trees in Florida.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: But there are a lot of really rare cool iguanas.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: There's about forty five species, and there's pink iguanas and
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: the Galopagos Islands land iguanas, there's marine iguanas. There's a
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: very rare high elevation pink iguana. There's another land iguana
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: and the Galopagos so there's a you know, marine iguana.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: But that lizard was fairly recently discovered. And there's some
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: iguanas that were thought to be extinct Joe like like
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the Jamaican iguana, and that was thought to be extinct forever,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: the Jamaican iguana, but they found a tiny population recently.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of iguanas that are in trouble,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: and you know, we should care about iguanas. And they're
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: not just green iguanas. Yeah, that pink iguana. That's a
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: marine iguana and a regular glocus land iguana.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: And then you see some of the pink form Jamie
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: c if you can find a video on Florida people
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: hunting iguanas Florida people hunting giant iguanas because some of
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: them are so big. You just you see them. You're like,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: oh my god, are those bad to eat? Though? The
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: big giant ones. Would you eat one being like a pet,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: a reptile pet guy?
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a male.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: That's a male. When they get orange like that, Yeah,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: that's a big male. I mean, these things are gigantic.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now that's a common green iguana. And the males
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: lose their green and get that incredible yellow orange. Those
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: are males.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're crazy. How many of them there are though,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I mean it is just overrun with iguanas. I guess
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: they have no natural predators, right, there's nothing that eats
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: them there, not once they get big like that.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: When they're little, some birds of prey and some snakes
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: can eat baby iguanas, but not once they are like that.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: But they're pretty chill. I mean, they don't really do
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: much harm.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Well don't they go to people's crops and people's houses. No,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: they do.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: They do do damage. They they're not supposed to be
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: in Florida, let's put it that way. Iguanas like water.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Typically they like to be around water, the green iguanas.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: But you know, reptiles have a bad pr problem.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: And that's why we're here, Joe.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: We're trying to elevate the publicity of people loving reptiles
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: and not killing them.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: This dude is all out there killing them. Is this dude?
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Top shelf anglers on Instagram.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: And you can do an expedition.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So he's just a Florida guy that's enjoying their orisons.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Also know that now, is it that's a called a tinosaurus.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: That's a type of Central American Mexican rocky iguana. That
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: lizard that's not a green iguana.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: So Florida has a variety.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they had those as well. And they have tagoos
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: in Florida that come from South America, a different type
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: of lizard that's invasive in Florida.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: And all of it is pets. Yeah, people letting them.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I had no idea that many people had iguanas that
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: it could be this, but big of a problem. Patt
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Iguanas were everywhere at one time.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And is this that's the take that's also invasive
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: in Florida.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: I used to sleep with one of those when I
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: was a teenager.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: That's snake with legs. It does the other face right totally.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: And that lizard really loves.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: To eat eggs. I used to feed my eggs and
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I've seen them in the wild eating eggs, bird eggs,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: duck eggs.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: When I lived in the valley, there was a reptile
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: store and it was a place where I used to
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: go buy goldfish because I used to have piranhas and
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: I used to have turtles too, and the turtles were
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: way more vicious than the piranhas. Those When you put
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: goldfish in with the turtles turtles, it's they're crazy, man,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and they grab a hold of them and they're they're
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: biting them. It's like very Jurassic Park, like you're watching
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: a little snapping turtle. Yeah, well these are just little
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: you know, little green sliders, siders what they're called. But
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: they had a crocodile monitor in that place, and oh yeah,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: I briefly thought like, maybe I can figure out an
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: enclosure and put a crocodile monitor and feed it. Rabbits
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: and ship don't get bit by a crocodile monitor. They're
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: close to it, like a Kommoto dagon bite.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: They have scalpold teeth. They're serious getting bit by a crocodile.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: It looked pretty vicious. I mean they just look like dinosaurs.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: It's like a forgotten thing of the path. There it is. Yeah,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: there's a crocodile monitor. Look at that face. Man, it
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: totally looks like a dinosaur.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Well there's Tommy. Who's Who's that's the guy.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: Chicken?
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Oh Tommy. They're the weirdest fucking people because I kind
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: of understand the chimp people more because the chimp people like,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: a chimp is interacting with you. It's it's a mammal,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: it's a primate. It's intelligent. There's a lot going on
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: there's emotions and jealousy and chimps. They're connecting with you.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: These things, they're just you're just looking into the abyss.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: And tell the chip rips your head off.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm not advocating for people to have champs bets.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I just say I understand the appeal of a pet chimp.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: I think it's a crazy idea, a baby chair. I
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: think if anybody's even remotely thinking about it, they should
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: watch Jim Crazy. Yes, but yeah, especially the babies are
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: so cute and then they eventually get to the point
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: where they kill your neighbor. But it's just you don't want,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: you know, I get, I just get the appeal of it.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: The appeal of the reptile thing to me is just
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: very strangely. These people love them.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I loved what, you know, I used to keep
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: snakes and lizards, but I ultimately they were my gateway drug.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: And then I ultimately got into tortoises because I like
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: the tortoises coexisting in the garden like plants, like yeah,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: and so it didn't feel like they were in a
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: cage and they kind of you know, maybe I'm anthropomorosive, primorphizing.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: My tortoises, but I kind of felt like they were
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: having a pretty.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Good life in my garden, so for sure.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: So I like keeping tortoises. They don't, you know, want
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: to eat a rabbit, particularly, they want to eat some
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: lettuce or some greens or so turtles and tortoises is
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: what I gravitated to.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: And then I found out one day they're the most.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Endangered group of animals on the planet along with primates
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: if you measure it by how many turtles and tortoises
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: are in the world and how many are facing extinction
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: along with primates. So then I was like, Okay, I
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: want to do something to help them. And this show
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: we're doing is really to teach people about the evolution
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: of the reptile trade and to make people realize they're
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: cool and they shouldn't be disposable pets.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And also Freak Show.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: And Freak so of course really good shows. As I said,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: it takes one to know one.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: But what's different. There's different though, is that this isn't
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: some like side hustle for animal love gone wrong. You know,
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: it's it's there's these people, there's this the animal, the
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: reptile people that hurt people are incredibly obsessive about you know,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: living art, about these living things. They like the it's
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: like a baseball card, like where you.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Use the hurt people.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Yea, her patology people her patology, amphibians and reptiles.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well you know coded people people know, but but
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: it's you know, it's it's it's really a trade formed
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: around scarcity, and you know, this sort of desire and
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: adventure people have going out to find the rarest of
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: the rare, you know, and bringing it back and selling it,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: trading it, keeping it. You are in that category.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: In that category, I'm not the guy that just wants
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the little pet bearded dragon.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I want the roles are also reptiles.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: But it's different than like, you know, an individual person
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: that has an attachment to a chimpanzee that she saw
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: with you know, watching Tarazan when she was growing up,
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: and she wanted to have that in her life.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: So, in other words, freaky people.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Like freaking people, extreme extreme obsessions, but it's about kind
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: of you know, the psychology of people in this in
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: this particular very niche way.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Well, any time you're dealing with extreme animal people, it's
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: about the psychology of the human being. That's really invested
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: in it, right, Yeah, best in show, Yeah for sure.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: And these are these are very unusual people because it's
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: a very unusual thing to be connected to something that
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: really doesn't give a fuck about you, Like we're really
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: concerned about this pink iguana. That pinaguana doesn't give a
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: fuck about people. If all the people on Earth died,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: it would just keep going about its business and not
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: shed a tear.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, especially things they can kill you in this way,
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: like a taipan or whatever someone's playing with that.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: An inland type in is a venomous stake from Australia
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: that may be the most venomous snake in the world.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: But it's all relative because a black man, you know. Yeah,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Australia has a lot of venomous stuff. Yea, spiders, boxed dailyfish,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: a lot of snakes that are very dangerous. Australian tiger snake,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: brown snake, inland type en. They're all things that equally
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: can kill you. So to say one is more dangerous
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: than the other, they all kill you.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Is there anti venom for all of them?
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: No?
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Actually, so it's a good question.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: So some snakes, like you know, Texas has a coral snake,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: for example, a very venomous, elapid type of snake like
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: a cobra, not like a rattlesnake. And I think they
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: have less and less antivenom for snakes that rarely bite people,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: because like see snakes, the coral snake, which is the red,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: black and yellow one that you have in East Texas,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: you know, when the dog gets bit by them. You
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: were talking about your dog getting bit by rattlesnakes. A
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: lot of time the vet doesn't know because you can't
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: even see the bite. The snake bite is so tiny.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: So some snakes do not have anavenom. Some really dangerous snakes.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: The coral snakes, they don't have ana venom for them.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I think I heard that, maybe not anymore.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it's faded.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: So what happens if you get bit, Well, there may
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: be some ani venom, but there's not a lot of it.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Ana Venom has gotten very expensive and it's very sophisticated
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: now and it's mostly for you know, in the US,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: for vipers, you know, for rattlesnakes. You know, But I
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: don't know, good question, that would be something someone smarter
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: than me would know about coral snake ani venom, but
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: it's an elapid like a cobra. You know.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: A friend of mine had two of them in her carport. Yeah,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: they took pictures of it and send it to people
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: and everyone's like, yeah, that's keep away from that, just
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: chilling in her carport. Yeah, but they're generally not aggressive
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: of the deal.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a saying, and it doesn't fit all because
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: there's coral snakes that don't have this. But yellow against
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: black is a friend of Jack yellow, I'm black against
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: red is anyway I can't even say, yeah, you wind
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: up dead, but I'm getting it wrong. But there's a saying,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: and it doesn't hold true for all coral snakes because
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: there's some coral snakes outside of the US that don't
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: have that same pattern.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: So if there's no anti va, I'm going to take
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: you to the hospital. What did they do? They stopped making?
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I mean there's some they stop making. It.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Is that what it says?
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: Effective?
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I think that's what I cost in effective no longer
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: let people die. Cost effective is a crazy thing to
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: say when it comes to keeping.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: People a Wow, I was I was right for a change.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe the socialists are right. Cost effective is crazy. So
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: what did they do? Uh?
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: You know, I heard every rattlesnake joke after I got bit,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: And there's one that's these three guys are out hiking
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: and someone gets bit here and they go to the
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: doctor and the guy says, you got to go back
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: and suck it out of him. And the guy just
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: says to him, you're gonna die. So maybe you die
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: with a coral snake. Yeah, just leave your dog.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: The thing I was recently, we're looking at this the
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: way of treating reddlesteak mics not too long ago. By
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: the way, they sell these, Johnson and Johnson sell these
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: kids where you used to have one, right, you actually
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: literally slice out and you suck out the suck out
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: the venom out of your out of your bite.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Does that actually work?
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: No?
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: That was what's incredible about it.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: When you when we were young, they had these little
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: rattle steak kits. You know, I'm a little older you,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: but it was insane what they told people to do
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: back then. They told you to cut yourself and then
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: put a tourniquit and then suck the venom out, which
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: is completely insane because when a rattlesnake strikes you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: they never hold on a rattlesnake. They strike and let
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: go immediately, and then they track their prey and it's
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: literally like a hypodermic needle going into your body and
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: the you know, the venom is already just like when
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: they inject you with something, it's already in. You can't
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: suck the whatever dog.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: So what should you do if you get bit? By
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Ronald B. Mellow?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: In my case, I walked to my car. Luckily I
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: wasn't too far away from my car, and I was
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: up in the mountains about an hour away from a hospital.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: I drove, well, I drove like a bat out of
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: hell to the hospital actually, but you're supposed to be
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: calm and get to a The kit incredible, and there
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: was just bullshit.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Huh, well, everything taken out of the woods, like we're fine.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: Everything you shouldn't, everything you shouldn't do today, everything you
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: should And so you just stay mellow and get to
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: the hospital.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: And if they don't have any anti venom, you just die.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Well, in my case, they didn't have it in the hospital.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: They had to get see you Highway patrol to bring
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: it from another from Ventura, and it took about forty
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: five minutes, and I thought I was going to die.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: On the gurney.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you get to a hospital and you get
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: ana venom if it's.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: A bad bite, and if they don't have any venom,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: you die.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Well, it depends on the kind of snake. Like water
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: moccasins usually aren't lethal, but certain rattlesnakes can kill you.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: And how much time do you have from the time
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: you get bit where you must get the anti venom
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: in you.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, in my case, I swear to god, I
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: thought I was gonna stop breathing about two hours into it.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: It just slowly feels like this pressure on your check.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: You can't breathe.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you're like you it felt like somebody put
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: sandbags all over me, and like you have this pressure
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: and you feel like you're gonna stop breathing. Yeah. Well,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: it's kind of bizarre.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Who's that guy, Ross Allen? He has the world record
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: for them? Was is it cobra bytes?
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: No, I think you're talking about a serpentarium.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: That same guy, Bill Haas Bill he.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Lived to like a hundred But and I know people
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: that inject themselves with venom. I was in me and
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: mar and Burma. One time, this guy had snake tattoos
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: all over him and he was a snake wrangler at
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: this zoo in the Central Burma. And every tattoo he
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: had put on his body, he'd put some venom in
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: it so he could handle these really dangerous crates which
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: are like cobra's. And he was this guy with all
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: these snake tattoos, but he'd envenomated himself, so you'd have
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: annibodies so he could handle these stakes and if he
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: got bad, he wouldn't die.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: But early roadside attractions and self, I mean, that's the
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: part about Florida. It goes back. It's in the fifties
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: and sixties. It had you know, Miami Serpentarium was an
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: amazing looking place, had this giant cobra, you know, with sculpture.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Basically, here's a question. If they do that with allergies,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: where they give you like a little bit of the
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: allergen and develop a resistance to it, could they do
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: that with snakes. That's like, if you live in a
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: snake prone area, should you do that?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: But that's the idea.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you do that.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: There's a guy right now in the US that's doing it.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I think they're doing a film upon about him injecting
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: all these venomous snake venoms into him like a pincushion.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: But no, I don't think people should do it, but
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: people do do it, not a lot of people.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: But this guy does build up your antibodies and you
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: know that you're going to come in contact with snakes. Listen,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: wouldn't that be Is it bad for you to do?
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Look, the country that I think has the most deadly
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: snake bites is probably India, the country where there's the
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: most deaths in venomation. The snake that probably kills more
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: people of the world is a puff out or in Africa.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: But it's many countries, but I think India has the highest.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: US it's pretty low chance you're going to get killed
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: by a snake. You're gonna get killed driving your car
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: or shooting someone with your gun.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: You know, it's highly unlikely.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: The odds are very low that you're going to die
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: from a snake bite, no matter where you live in there.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: I understand it's all well and good, but that doesn't
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: comfort you if you get bit by a snake, like, oh,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: what are the odds you have to deal with?
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: It or by one of those kids.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I think most people live.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I think most people.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a few people that die this
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: year in California, but typically it's like only a few
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: people a year die in the country with snake bites.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: And is it generally because they just don't get to
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: medical treatment in time.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Or they're older, or you know, or they get bit
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: three times, like not just once by the rattlesnake. You
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: know you have more venom in them.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Is it true that the young ones give you more
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: venom than the old ones?
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: No, young young young ones have a more condensed, more
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: dangerous venom, but big snakes will are much more dangerous
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: because they can put far more venom into you. If
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: the little ones have a more potent venom that they
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: can't inject as much into So that's kind of people
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: misunderstand that stat Yeah, not that I'm a snake expert.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I'm more of a turtle expert, and I am more
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: of a freak expert. So I'm good at finding these
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: crazy people.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: To do you get uncomfortable being around these people?
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: That's a good question.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Because there's there's a psychological aspect too, particularly like chimp
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: crazy there's something about those people that makes me uneasy
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: watching it on TV, like you are so far gone,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Like some of these people are so far gone in
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: terms of like just being a normal, present, rational person.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: There's a courtship, and sometimes that courtship takes years to
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: get someone willing to be interviewed. It's generally the reptile
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: world can be very guarded. People that have them don't
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: want the Feds coming and taking their rare reptiles. They
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: don't want animal rights groups PEDA coming and busting them.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: They don't want people coming because they're very valuable. Some
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: reptails are worth a lot of money, so they're very guarded.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: And to get access to a lot of these people
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: took a lot of time at times, and sometimes that
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: relationship would go up, been down, And there were times
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: when people that I.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Was interviewing really did not like me.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: There's something that happened, and then I would have to
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: go there and I'd be nervous because that person may
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: have been someone who did a lot of time in
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: prison and did some heavy things in his life. So yeah,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: there are times when you were just kind of like,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: you know, is this the time I'm going to go
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: there and he's going to really fuck me up.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Why didn't they like you?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: You know, man? You know, like listen, I like this guy.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: He's done, he's done what he's done in the past.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: He was sentenced to one hundred years in prison. He
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: got out for whatever reason. But that guy, why did
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: you go to jail for a hundred years? Well, Mario
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: to brow, he was sentenced to one hundred plus years
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: in prison. He got out early because he must have
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: had some serious It was.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: The crime murder and drugs, and he got out early
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: because he said he had information.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: He must have. He did twelve years and no one
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: knows what.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: No one knows what. He only did twelve years for
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: murder and drugs.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: But I like him.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Oh great, I wasn't the one murdered.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: I wasn't in his life back then. He's kind of
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: a like. He really actually does love animals, I mean
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: in his way. And I was nervous sometimes going to
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: his place a few times.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Well, why was he mad at you?
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Fuck? Do you remember all.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: The times he was mad at me?
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: He's mad. He's probably mad at me right now as
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I'm speaking.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely, yeah, Well that's this.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: This is the next episode, there's an entire episode that
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: talks about kind of the eighties in Miami and the
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: sort of overlap between the drug trade and the legal
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: wildlife trade and the reptile trade, and he's a central
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: character in it. Now he's kind of more tangential because
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: it's really about this this guy, Raven Nostrand, guy from
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: New Jersey, moved down to Florida, started a business that
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: became strictly a reptiles as I was referencing. But yeah,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think there was anything like particular,
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: but he would get very particular about very specific things,
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: like if you were you could be right about a
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: million things that he hated, but wrong about one thing
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: that he cared about the most, And he would categorize
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: you to be this person that.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: There's an expression honor among thieves, and he weirdly has
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: this kind of honorable sun and certain things I would
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: say to him would make him really upset. But I
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: have to say, the only time I was ever shot
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: at in my life was in fucking Miami. I was
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: shot at, you know, going to a payphone in the
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: early nineties and a van trying to go to a
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: nightclub with a bunch of people, and these guys were
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: walking towards me and they started just blowing out the
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: windows of the van. I remember, I didn't go to
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: the nightclub. I went back to my hotel and I
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: woke up in the morning with that chopped car glassholl
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: in my hair. I had long hair back then. I
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: had hair back then. But Miami was, you know, it
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: was pretty wild in the eighties and early nineties.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: I have a good friend mom. My friend Steve did
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: his residency, he's an ophalmologist, his residency in Miami in
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: the eighties and worked in emergency rooms, and he said
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: it was fucking insane. It's just like so many gunshot wounds,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: so many drug deals gone bad, so many heists. He said,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: it was like an insane place to work.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Why do you say that? Because I said to all
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: my characters, I said, what's it like? You know, having
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: been in and out of prison so many times, he goes, bro,
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: everyone in Florida has been in prison, you know, And
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like, well, what's it like.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: You know, everyone in Floyd's been in prison.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: Sunny placed with shady people.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Right, have you seen cocaine cowboys?
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, phenomenal, right, and that story where you find
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: out that the entire graduating class of the police academy
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: either wound up murdered or in jail for corruption.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Have you seen Bad Lieutenant? Yes, I'm friends with Harvey
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Real he's good in it. Man.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's great moment.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: But there's parts of this story that are a little
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: like Bad Lieutenant. You'll see in the end, you know.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: Well, what you'll you'll like about this second episode, about
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: this period. It's from the point of view of this
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: young at the time, you know, coming right out of college,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: young d agent dea agent on the beat, chasing bad guys,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: and he was assigned to this guy Mario, to Browley
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: the case that was a cold case. No one could
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: ever touch him. And you see him kind of chase
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: after him, and you know, understand the whole weaving of
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: this story, but it's a really you know, being around
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: that guy was you know, being talk about the subjects
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: in this animal world, you know, law enforcement.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: This guy sleeps with a gun every night and gets
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: literally orgasmic with the thought of this guy coming to
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: his house.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: It was like a hideaway.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: The guy that he put in prison for one hundred
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: years that got out. He literally waits and you'll see
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: a line in the show that is kind of unbelievable
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: what he says about that.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but just you know, he lives in this kind
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: of we went to go see him. He lives in
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: this kind a very kind of you know country part
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: of West Virginia, and he's good with guns, good with guns,
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: and he would just you know, he would brag about
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: all the guns, you know, the pol which you can
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: find from this you know, left over from the Civil
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: War in his backyard. And you know, he was very
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: very good with gun. We did a lot of shooting
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: verite with him, and he was just a really at
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: the time, very generous with his with his time, wanting
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: to tell his story, but you know, clearly killed a
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: lot of people and would make some very soft references
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: to to that that would be very unerving, you know, like, yeah,
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: you're really great with it. I've never shot a gun.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: He's I don't have anything against it, but I've never
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: shot a gun. And I would talk to him about it.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: I'm interested in it, and he'd be like, yeah, I've
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: had to use it a lot, you know, more than
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: i'd like to admit. So you know, you're in these places.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's But.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: What's so peculiar about this guy. His name's Larry Lovelace.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: He was a DEA agent in Florida back in those days.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: He put this guy in prison, you know, you know,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: bringing this guy was bringing a lot of drugs from
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: you know, he was Cuban and you'll see it in
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: episode two. But he really just doesn't understand how the
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: guy got out of prison, and the fact that the
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: very guy that put him in prison wouldn't know that
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: that they like the whoever the powers that be that
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: put got him out of prison after twelve years, he
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: would think he would know, you know, but he's still
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: to this date worried, worried about retelligence.
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: Be So this was what's cool is that his dad
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: was actually the person. He was like an hr person
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: for kind of the Cuban was at the time of
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: the Cuban Bay of Pigs, you know, invasion, that kind
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: of era, and he was responsible for taking care of
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: all these kind of Cuban exiles during that time. And
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: he would he was being the one that was going
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: to going house to house and giving people checks. So
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: he had this kind of very interesting network of people
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: and had this incredible access. And so with what was
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: been insinuated is that you know, his dad had these
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: relationships and knew where everyone was and knew all these
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: people and had information that was useful to the government
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: at the time. That's the idea. Gave information, no surprise.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Or he helped bring down the real Pablo Escobar, or
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: he knew a big drug lord that the government wanted
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: and they made a deal. Who knows lots of theories.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: White an injustice though, like even this guy you know
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: some you know, we filmed two hundred people over how
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: long fifteen years really less six was was more intense,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: more than two hundred people. And you never get everybody
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: in And I remember meeting this guy, Tony Biscaro, remember him, Yeah,
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: he was the this guy was part of He flew
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: planes for drugs. You know, he got busted with like
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: six hundred thousand, you know, pounds of weed at the time.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: He served the single largest sentence for a marijuana smuggling
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: crime forty years forty years, got out maybe five years ago.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: And could you imagine coming out of prison for the
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: longest sentence and then going to Miami and you see
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: weed stores everywhere. His fucking life's over and these weed stores.
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: It's like insane to me, that's fucked up. But that
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: was at a time. Look Pablo Escobar, like there were
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: people around pabl Esco where they got indeed that was
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: that were trafficking ivory horns and stuff like. It was
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: very You know, there's one degree of separation for like
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: wildlife crime and drugs in that era.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Why do you think there's that connection easy concealment con I.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Mean, look, I don't want to exaggerate. I think there's
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: been connections. You know, like you can put cocaine inside
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: of a bow constrictor who's going to open a box
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: at customs or fish and Wileye service and look inside
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: the boat constrictors. So there's some pretty ingenious ways.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: To meaning you put it in their stomach.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you either like force feed the boa constrictor,
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: like you know, like you put them in those balloons
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: you put cocaine in, or you even.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: And then you have to cut them open and get
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: your cocaine. Yeah, you cut them open and get your cocaine.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: But even I remember New York when the fish markets used.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: To put drug casually about that, by the way, But.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Fish fish markets used to put the drugs and fish
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: and the and they you know in the fish markets
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: New York. Yeah, because no one wants to handle the
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: fish and open up the fish, and they shove all
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: the drugs into the fish, so you know, like smell,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: these dangerous animals are good cover for drugs or or.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: Even more used to be you know, trafficking wildlife. There
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: was a legal version of that. So what they would
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: do is take the crates and they'd pack them and
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: they put the drugs at the bottom, and they'd put
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: you know, another layer of animals and they put some
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: they'd mix in some you know look alike animals that
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: are really rare but look like the common animal, so
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: they'd mix them together, and then they put something like
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: you know, spitting cobras up the top. And no one
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: was reaching into the crate when there was these like
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: very dangerous animals many So that's how they kind of
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: got that they were able to prey on the lack
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: of resources at these kind of major ports of entry
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: and realized that fish and wildlife didn't really have any
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: resources at the time. They had limited wildlife inspectors, they
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: had to go through these you know, volumes, values of
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: crates and they play these games.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Many Komodo dragons that made it into this country came
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: in illegally in a crate and they would just put
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: a little Komodo dragon in with some other monitor lizards
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: and the inspectors couldn't tell the difference, and they'd go
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: through and the Komodo dragon that bit Sharon Stone's husband.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Sharon Stone's husband, I think Los Angeles Zoo is one
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: of those dragons.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: So it was somebody's private collection and then they got
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: released to the zoo.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: No, it was in a sting that's in our show
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: where they were bringing in illegal animals coming from a
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: guy in Malaysia who's sort of the Pablo Escobar, the
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: kingpin globally of all the reptile animal trade. The guy
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: that we finally accessed after COVID, who his name is
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Antson Wong, and he was sort of the you know,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: bad guy number one in the world for reptile and
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: animal smuggling, and so he was sending an Interpol and
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: you know, he did the longest longest sentence in the
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: US for a while, I crime ever at the time
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: in the nineties he was busted in Mexico and then
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: brought extra diited into US. But he was bringing in
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: Komodo dragons and really rare reptiles, and the zoos were
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: the beneficiary of those reptiles once they were confiscated. So
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: the La Zoo San Diego Zoo brought zo A lot
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: of these animals came from reptile smugglers.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: Wow, very much at origins of collections.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for zoos. And I would also imagine that the
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: kind of people that are really into reptiles probably also drugs,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: so they probably know a lot of people in that world.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a cross section of yours a python.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of inked guys. There's a lot of
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: like goth guys into Oh yeah, hot snakes, which are
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: the venomous.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: A lot of bikers hot snakes. Hot snakes, that's what
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: they call them. Yeah, hot sex. They kind they can
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: kill you.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're called hot snakes.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, a lot of badass guys. And there was
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: definitely drugs. Listen, I did drugs in.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: My life way yes, come on, I'll go on.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I've done everything. I had nightclubs in New York City
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: for many years, shoe. Yeah, I'm like, you know, embombed.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: It's made me live longer.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's what saved you when you get a bit
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: by the Roles night. Probably, But you gotta think that
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: the type of people that are going to be even
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: interested in having a snake as a pet, that's a
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: very unusual person.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I don't come on, you know people that
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: have stakes kids have all pythons. You've got kids, they
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: like a baby, a ballpitheon they're clean. You don't have
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: to feed it every day, like a rabbit or a dog.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: You can go on vacation, leave your ball python. They're
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: a good pad. A lot of snakes.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: I don't think of them as a pat. I think
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: of it as a monster that you feed that allows you.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not big enough to eat you, so
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: it allows you to feed it, and then you have
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to keep it in this box, which is kind of weird.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: That's why I like tortoises. You don't have to keep
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: them in a cage or a box.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: Because does a snake they experience discomfort because they're in
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: a terrarium.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Listen, there's a lot of myth out there that, oh,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: snakes can live in a little teeny like sweater box
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: or a shoe box, and you can put them in
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: racks like you see in snake stores and snake The.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Truth is, real.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Snakes in the wild do not live in little boxes.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: They may go in the underground at a certain time
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: of year at hibernate, they may, but they come out
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: and they hang out like us, and they move around.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: And most snakes do not live in a little teeny box.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: But yes, they can survive in a box. But there's
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: all different kinds of snakes. There's racer snakes and indigo
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: snakes and snakes that need to move fast and go places.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: And then there's some snakes like a ball python that
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: can be in a more confined space, but you can't generally.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: But generally, like when people keep them as pets, they
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: keep them in some common aquarium, right yeah.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they should. They should give them more space.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: They should absolutely give them more space. I mean, part
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: of what we're trying to do in this show is
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: to try to tell people be responsible. Don't treat reptiles
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: like disposable pets, like a toy that you break one
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: week and then you buy another one and you break it,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: and the parents buy another one. You know, they're living creatures.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: The death toll when you import these animals is amazing.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, so much mortality, and we don't talk about mortality,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: whether it's zoos or people bringing in these reptiles, or
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: even myself. Over the years, you ask me, what happened
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: to that snake? Probably died, Probably was flushed down a
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: toilet by someone's mom. You know, you know, like baby
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: green turtles that you had as a kid, Like what happened.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: To most of those long the snakes? Look? Look, how
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: long does a python live? This episode is brought to
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• 55:58
  Speaker 2: So the longest lived now animal torresto animal on the
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: planet is a giant tortoise. They can live almost two
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: hundred years. I have tortoises that are over one hundred
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: years old.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: What about snakes?
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Snakes generally most snakes don't live more than thirty to
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: forty years, but there are few that my lizards can
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: live seventy years. Some of the big land i wannas
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: can live a long time.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Those ones in Florida the seventy years.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know about green iguanas, but there are some
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: that can live fifty to seventy years. Some of the
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: big lizards. Tortoises live the longest. Some crocodilians can live
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: a really long time. Snakes live the least, the lesser
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: time compared to most of the other reptiles.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: That was another thing that they found in Florida in
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: the Everglades. They found nile crocodiles, and they think that
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: they might have a breeding population. There's some suspicion, but
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: it's basically from people having them as pets. Yeah, I've
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: swam with nile crocodiles. That's no joke. Why did you
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: I was in Madagascar. They have a form of nile
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: crocodile in Madagascar. They don't ut quite as big as
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: the mainland crocs. And I was looking for turtles, and
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: then I all the croc nile crocodiles, and as you know,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: saltwater crocodiles are the two crocs that really kill the
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: most people. You know, people come and wash their clothing
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: next to the shore. You know, the croc comes up
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: and grabs them. You know, you really got to watch
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: it with nile crocodiles. So if they're in Florida, they're
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: much bigger than American crocodiles.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they have a shoot on site order for them,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: or they did at least in this article that I
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: was reading is from a while back. I didn't know that.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Woll Yeah, a couple of them. Yeah, yeah, I know
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: they've captured at least two of them.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Well, the biggest reptile in the world in terms of weight.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Back to our sized conversation.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Is a saltwater crocodile and it's neck and neck with
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: a leather back seat turtle. They're both over two thousand pounds,
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: So you imagine a two thousand.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Other back seat turtle. Is that big?
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I had no idea.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: That's great. I would have never imagined that a sea
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: turtle would have the same body weight as a saltwater crocodile.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Their neck and neck too, over two thousand pounds both
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: of them. That's a big, big turtle.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I know that there's legend right about congo crocodiles,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: and that there's crocodiles that people had supposedly seen, you know,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: back in the early nineteen hundreds and the eighteen hundreds
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: that they thought were forty feet long. And the thing
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: about crocodiles is, I don't think they die of old age.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: I think they just stay alive until they die. I
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: want to be a crocodile, and they keep getting bigger.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: That's the other thing, like depending upon their food source
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: and how much. Yeah, I think in captivity they wind
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: up dying. But I think there's some there's there's some
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: thoughts as to why that happens, you know, how they're
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: actually eating, whether they're getting fed, what's the difference between
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: the way they live in the wild. But there's some
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: accounts from back in the day where these guys were
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: on a boat and the crocodile was bigger than the
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: boat they were on.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the thing about crocodilians, and I think
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: there's about twenty seven different types, but once they get
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: to a certain size, you know, they're vulnerable when they're little, right,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: like birds and fish and things can kill them and
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: eat them. But once they get a certain size, you know,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: like you're saying, they're pretty much invincible. Nothing can kill them,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: And some of them developed a taste for people.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just movement in the water and just there because
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: they're an ambush predator, right, Yeah, well they hunt people,
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: and they probably hunt people.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: My friend Jim Shockey, he got hired to go to Africa,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: I forget what country it was, but he got hired
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: to kill these crocodiles because they were praying on people.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: And while he was there, someone got snatched up. While
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: he was in camp there just everybody there had like
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: missing a leg, bite, taken another calf. Everybody was all
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: fucked up.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: I was good friends with Peter Beard, and he would
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: go to Kenya and Ethiopia and call crocodiles. And there's
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: a really incredible photo of him inside a crocodile that
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: they killed, and he's like writing in his you know journal,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: but he's half his body is in a huge nile crocodile.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: But he would go and all of them for probably
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: similar reason.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Yea.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Once they start targeting villagers, once they find that there's
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: a place that they can hunt and get regular food,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: they're there all the time. They they're so sneaky that
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: you know, what they developed was they these people had
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: put posts into the ground in the water, so into
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: the the area where they would wash their clothes and
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: gather food. They essentially built like some sort of containment
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: area where the crocs couldn't get through these poles. So
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: what the crocs did was go around the poles and
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: into the water. So they had figured it out. It's
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: all right, that's creepy, that's creepy. Well they they realized like,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: oh the people go Like they must have been watching
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: and realizing, oh, the people go into this area. So
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: I gotta go on the ground at night and then
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: I'll go back into the water and then I'll catch
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: these fuckers slipping.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: And they're patient, they can.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: Wait eat intelligent, they wait a long.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Time before they eat anything, you know, eat for a year.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: They croc yeah, are egent.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well they they're one of the few reptiles that
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: actually really does defend their babies, like you know, like
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: a snake.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Snake doesn't do that.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, wow, Wow, that's amazing.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: What a dinosaur man?
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: What is that? A saltwater or.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: A nile saltwater Australia in Australia. Wow wow. Those things
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: ran the whole world at one point in time.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just weird. There's still creatures like that roaming around,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: you know, that's a throwback.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: And there's some really endangered crocodiles and you're seeing our show,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: I think even episode one, there's the zoo curator that says, oh,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: we bought a few Philippine crocodiles from this dealer. I
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: think it's in the first episode. And Philippine crocodiles today
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: are super endangered. You know, like there's still some really
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: really rare ones, not saltwater crocs and not nile crocs,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: but there's some really endangered.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Is that a thrill for these guys that they get
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: something that they're not supposed to have? Is a part
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: of it? Yeah, for sure.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: It's like a rare baseball card.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: No, it's like rare art. It's like having a.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: And then there's a I get excited by seeing something
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: I never saw before. But I see a cool like
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: pink landing one. I've never seen one in the wild
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: or anywhere, and I've been to the Galapagos. So yeah,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: it's a thrill.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: It's put in your backpack and take it home is
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: probably not encouraged.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: I'd stuff hit down my pants. No, I'd be too scared.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Well, you wouldn't want.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: To do that, right, Well, ever, since no, I wouldn't
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: want to. You know, my mother gave me a good
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: moral compass with that. She used to say to me
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: when I was a kid, don't play god Eric and
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: I keep my keeping things, and she'd tell me, you
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: got to let it go at the end of the summer.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: So I was lucky to have that because a lot
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: of people didn't have that mother, and I did, so
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: I kind of against my better judgment when I was
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: a kid, I did bad things that my mother didn't like,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: but later in life she was right, keep it in the.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: Wild, Yeah for sure. You know, well they're fascinating in
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: the wild. It's just like I do appreciate them in
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: the wild. I just I'm perplexed as to why people
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: would they would have their life revolve around taking care
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: of reptiles. It just seems really odd.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Well, people get into it, and they get addicted, and
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: they buy more and more and more, and then they
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: get divorced and they get rid of them all or
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: they get burnt out on it because after a while,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: it's a lot of work taking care of a lot
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: of reptiles. So it's kind of like, you know, people
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: get really into it and sometimes it's hard to sustain it.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: But more trade than the other collectible culture.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Trade more, more, trade more, you know, like I'll give
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: you a crocodile.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: Sell trade, yeah, bear, bear, gullbladder.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: I've never seen this footage that's a shark. So it's
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: stealing a shark that it got caught. Wow, Yeah, that
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: must be American crocodile. Right, it's Australia. Okay, a lot
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: of sharks in Australia that makes sense.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Wow, so I just stole this guy's fish.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, what's been your interest in wildlife?
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Well, man, I'm fascinated by wildlife. I'm just much more
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: interested in mammals for whatever reason. I mean, I'm interested
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: in these things. I found them fascinating, but they're not
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: as compelling to me for whatever reason. And I always
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: wondered what that is like. You know, I did this
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: thing on social media once, the social media hierarchy of
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: dead animals, and I said, like fish, filets of fish,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: No one cares dead fish. People care a little more,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: but not much. Dead turkey not that big a deal.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Dead deer Okay, now we're getting weird. You know, dead bear,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Now people get mad at you. It's interesting.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: You know. I went to this thing called Safari Club
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: International in Vegas. It's the biggest trophy hunting you know, convention,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: and I was filming undercover and I started out, you know, asking, yeah,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: can you text it ear me this? And then I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: kind of you know, raised the bar and I said,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: you know, can you tax the germy a chimp for me?
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, yeah, we can do a chimp. Said
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: what about an orangutank. Yeah, we could do an orangutank anyway.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: And I was going around two different taxidermists in this
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: giant convention. They had elephants and lions and all kinds
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: of stuff. Eventually I asked someone if you could taxidermy
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: a human, you know, And then suddenly I noticed all
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: these guys starting to follow me, you know, And there
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: was a big NRA booth and a lot of people
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: with guns, and eventually they surrounded me and I was
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: trying to get rid of my you know, camera gear
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: and throw it in the garbage and stuff. But it
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: was interesting where the line is and what you're allowed
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: to Well.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you're a fucking psychopath. You're asking him
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: if you could taxidermy a human. You don't think that's
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: They probably thought for sure you're a fed or someone
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: or a joke undercover. I mean, obviously it.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: Was kind of it was kind of a joke, but
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: they literally started putting eyeballs on me and say, who
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: the fuck is this guy?
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Well you yeah, but they were how do you
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: take a fucking human and turn into a statue.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: People have shrunken heads, I know, people with junkin heads.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: Actually you know they collect them, but no, it's pretty
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: macab But the fact that they would tax the deermy
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: a chimp and an orangutang and a gorilla.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: So who are these people that said they would do that.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: They're just just taxidermists that are in this convention that
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: taxidermy would want.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: To be a game, so someone would have to smuggle
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: it back.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of what happens is and a lot of
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: the you know, when zoo animals die sometimes they send
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: it to people that taxidermy it. So I know people
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: that get a lot of zoo carcasses and they you know,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: tax a chimp. I've seen it.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so when a zoo, a zoo has the
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: option to sell the dead body and then someone turns
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: it into a taxidermy statue.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: It's gone on for a long time. Nothing against zoos,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: but that was one way to get really unusual animals.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: Like I have a friend, I mean a guy I
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: know that's taxidermy.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Number of Komodo dragons that came from zoos because people
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: don't have Komodo dragons in the in the private sector.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess, no harm, no foul, it's already dead.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: But I guess I'm making the point you're making. I'm
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: just sort of saying, it's interesting how fish, even though
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: certain fish can live over one hundred years, certain rock
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: fish and longevity that's incredible. We don't think of them
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: in the same way as we think of these higher
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: We don't care at all. We don't care at all.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't seem to. But you know, going fishing
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: is much more common than going hunting.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, now that I said what I just said, you know,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: maybe that's a little twisted.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: What do you mean about taxing real person? Twisted? Yeah,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: you asked him.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: I think I said that out of context.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: WHOA you could buy this?
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's real to see if it was fake?
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: What real? How is that legal document? I'm not sure
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: on the screen, may our friend, it's only three grand
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: I mean the guy.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: Riverside, Yeah, the guy that has the tax that he's
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: got a funny name for his museum.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the Commodo Dragon. But now that I think
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: about it, he had a number of taxidermy guerrillas. Yeah,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: now what I think about it?
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: Now do they say where they got this from? Does
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: it say how they acquired this body?
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: The document might have to pay for the document.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: That's fucking weird.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: But to your point about you know, this kind of
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: societal reaction to you know, different wildlife issues, I think, yeah,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: that's what we're super curious about. What drives people's obsessions
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: around certain things. In this case, this happens to be
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: part sport, part industry, part obsession with you know, scarcity.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: But that is all in this case leading more to
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: destructive extinction problems. You know, very few animals. More and
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: more animals are threatened with extinction than ever before, particularly reptiles.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: Now one out of every five are threatened with extinction,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: and it's growing an accelerated rate, mainly because of things
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: that we explore in our show, Pet Trade Exotica, you know,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: smuggling and all of that. But you know, to get
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: people to care about things that can harm you, you know,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: believe it or not. You know, we have challenges with
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: you know, subject matter in the show that you know,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: we'll get notes back, and it's it's it's it might
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: be too hardcore for people to see because it is
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: a brutal, volume based industry and there's a lot of.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: We try not to show the bludgeoning and the cruel
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: to the animals. We try to avoid that with Tiger
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: King and chim Crazy in the show because people turn
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: the channel, so we try we could if we wanted to,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: we could do that.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: Well they we're just But I'm more talking more about
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: the point of like what how do people respond to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: something through an interest and you know, what turns them on,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: what turns them off? And what is it about us
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: that has this connection to certain Why are there turtle people?
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: Why do you like turtles?
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Why do you think people vilify reptiles? You like mammals.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: You said, why do you think people don't are so
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: keen on reptiles?
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: Well, they're not like us, right, They're a different sort
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: of predatory lizard thing. And I think in our mind
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: they harken back to the days where these things were
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: a real problem for human beings. You know. I think,
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: you know, crocodiles and alligators like they they enact like
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: there's a visceral reaction that people have to them. I
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: think is warranted. It's genetic probably, But.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: You don't think because we like to talk about the warm, cuddly,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: you know, charismatic animals like a panda bear or a
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: quala bear, or a you know.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: Well, that I think is anthropomorphism that's done by Disney movies.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Of course, yeah, that because people in the pioneer days
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: they didn't think of bears that way.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Right, But I would argue that a bear, you know,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: a kodiak bear, a polar bear, and lion is a
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: lot more concerning than most reptiles.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, you know.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: So why we vilify reptiles and have that you know,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: feeling about them is I think maybe more as to
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: what you said about the anthropomorphism. You can't snake has
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: no legs like us, they don't breastfeed their baby is
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: like a bear or like like a mammal. They have
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: a forked tongue, they have no ears. A snake is weird.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: They're nothing like us. So maybe we feel so removed
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: from them and they're scary even though they're really not
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: that scary.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: We talked to this guy, were the Disney things so
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: interesting to me? Because that that was actually something I
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: was kind of deep on. This guy, Carl Safina, he's
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: more of is he more of an anthropologist or he's
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: more of a behavioral.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: It's like an animal behaviorist and sort of more in
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: the groove of like you know, animal welfare and animal behavior.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but this sort of creation of anthropomorphic character is
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: through Disney. I mean they were you know, could you
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: track this sort of correlation to you know, entry points
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: into you know, mainstream culture. You know, it's you know,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: it's they're easy, they're great devices for human emotion. But
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: then there's this more perverse side of you know, it
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: creates these demands for pets. You know z Utopia with snakes,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: Like Zutopia had a snake as a central character and
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: it's going crazy in China.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: You know, well that's a pop culture thing, like but that's.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: The you know that, so these well intentioned things in
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: these ways which we portray animals finding Nemo.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Everyone wanted a clown fish, Harry Potter.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: Harry Potter, everyone wanted a baby owl. I was in
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Asia after Harry Potter and I was like, what are
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: there like fifty baby owls in this market? And they
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: were Harry Potter birds. That's a byproduct of pop culture, right, yeah,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: you know, you know Jurassic Park, everyone wants their little
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: beardy dragon because they want a miniature dinosaur. So who
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: knows what's going to happen after Monsters of God, they're
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: all going to want snakes again.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: Hopefully you have something.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: Did Tiger King open up the door for that? You think,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: did people like look at that and find it appealing,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: like that's rober mission? I think I think I'm looking
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: from my niche.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: I think it gave the opposite of people like maybe
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: questioning question.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: It's like deliverate.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: Maybe question when you take a photo with the baby
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: tiger at a roadside zoo, I think that was more more,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: you know, because it was so big and pop culture.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: I want to get me a tiger after tiger can't
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: give me a little bit if you're going to plane
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: too this lane, It's like, look, everyone was shocked that
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: you could buy you can basically going for free.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: Well we've talked about it before on the podcast, but
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: there's more tigers in captivity in Texas than all the
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: wild in the world in people's private collections.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: I think religion also has it plays a big role
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: in the vilification of reptiles, particularly snakes. You know, like
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: you know something about that any complex and you know the.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: Snake is bad serpent serpent?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or I was more people dream of snakes in
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: this country than any other thing. Bind it's mostly negative dreams,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: not sharks snakes.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: There's a Google.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: Google did this sort of like you know, infographic by country,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: and you know what is the most common dream that
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: people have, and it's usually abound snakes.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: I have like someone chasing me or panic dreams. Never
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: have a nightmare about a snake.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: But we never hear of like a phobia directly attached
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: to sharks. You know, you have a fidiophobia, which is
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: a fear of snakes, but you don't hear of a
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: shark of phobia or iraqnophobia. Righters.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people are freaked out by spot.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think that's a genetic thing. I think
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: there's a memory. I think someone either was bit or
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: knows someone that was bit and that information got transferred
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: down to their offspring. I'm pretty sure that because hosting
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: fear Factor, I got to see people legitimate iraq noophobia
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: and legitimate afidiophobia where it is like nothing else like
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: they see it and they fucking freak out like it's irrational.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: It's like everything in their body saying you got to
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: get out of here right now. Yeah, and it's not
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: like everybody else, everybody else who looked at us like
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: oh yikes. And then a few people they have that
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: genetic memory.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's just and it's cultural. It's cultural, like
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: like we have a lot of Mexican guys that work
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: with us. Every year we do a snake course when
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: the snakes start coming out in the spring, and I
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: show them how to put a rattle snake.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: The only staff meeting he ever does.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's the only thing I care about. But
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: I don't want people killing snakes that work for me.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, hey, you don't have to kill the snake.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: And they're so used to taking the machete and cutting
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: the snake's head off, and we don't do that. We
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: move the rattle snake and we put it somewhere else.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: We move the gopher snake, that king snake. But they
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: just have this, you know, some of them, as you
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: were just saying, just can't wrap their head around even
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: touching the snake because they just it's instilled in them,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: you know, from their parents or from whatever their childhood
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: that they're scared of snakes.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: It's hard to change, not with kids, like I'm sure
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: with your kids and your daughters, like I see with
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: little boys, you know, six and three how their reaction
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: and they're not fearful like and it's partially because of
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: the influence of the work that I'm doing, But you know,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: I watch them interact, I see their friends, I see
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: their cousins that are fearful, they have an adverse reaction.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: I also think it's like, you know, your exposure to it. Yeah,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: you know a lot, and you're right, probably some genetic kind.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: Of definitely exposure to I mean, if you grow up
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: and you're used to being around different kinds of animals
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: and the wildlife and different different things, you'll probably be
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: more comfortable around unique animals. But if you're a person
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: grows up entirely in the city, does your parents like animals?
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: Do they dogs? We had dogs and cats, normal stuff.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: I had a weird bomb. I had a weird bomb
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: that likes snakes and so and like salamanders. Explained she
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: would she would take me into pet stores that actually
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: steal the stakes and salamanders and steal them and put
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: them in her purse and then take me out into
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: the woods. We'd let them go. So that's the kind
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: of she didn't like seeing them in cages.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: Wow, she didn't mind kleptomania.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: So I got good at stealing.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: For a while. As an odd mom who's like really
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: in the snakes.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: She just wanted to free them. She didn't like seeing
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: them in cages. Oh I understand quariums.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I didn't grow up around any of that.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody who had a snake as a pet,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: not that I can remember really in New Jersey. Well,
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: I was born in New Jersey, but I grew up
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: all over the place. I lived in San Francisco until
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: I was eleven. Then I lived in Florida from eleven
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: to thirteen. Actually was around a lot of alligators during
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: that time there. It is. Yeah, we're in Gainesville and
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: there was a place called Lake Alice there that had
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of alligators. Yeah, you'd see it all the
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: time when I was there.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: One lady, fairly impressionable age.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I was around them a lot. But
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: they were they were weird, like they didn't do anything.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: They just laid on the shore. You could see them
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: and you could be fairly close. Even though they could
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: have clearly chased me and caught me because they can
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: run like thirty miles an hour, right, they could have
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: caught me if they wanted to. They didn't. They weren't
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: really interested in people. Apparently they had plenty of food
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: and they were at that time they were actually endangered.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: So alligators, like they were telling people not to feed
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: the marshmallows because people would throw marshmallows on the lake
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: because you could watch the alligator come up and eat
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: the marshmallow. They liked marshmallows, and they said, hey, these
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: are not good for alligators. They're super worried about alligator
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: diabetes or something whatever. Yea, but they were.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: Concerned alligator sugar rush.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were concerned about giving the alligator non nutritious food,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: which I thought was funny because they were saying that
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: they were endangered.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: And it's amazing that in the fifties and sixties they
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: were really endangered and it was hard to find an alligator.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: And when you think about that now and it's hard
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: to believe, and how the Endangered Species Act did help
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: bald eagles, birds of prey because actually worked because of DDT,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: but it brought back alligators. And now alligators like you
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: can't even imagine they were endangered. They're like ubiquitous in Florida.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: They literally say, every pond has the potential to have
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: everywhere you look, they move around, there's they're very overpopulated.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what's interesting about this work in the show that
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: spends so much time you know, we had which you know,
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: you you shared in this you know, curiosity, but we
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: had great access to all of these great people in
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: different industry. So you have heads of the zoo, you
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: have you know, dj DA US Fish and Wildlife Service,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: the collectors, you know, the bigger suppliers, and you have
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 3: all aspects of this sort of industry. And what the
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: show became, you know, as we were working through the edit,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: is this kind of you know, this real clear story
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: of unintended consequences, which is the more you enforce you
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: have great laws that happened, but it triggers something else,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 3: and that triggers something else. And you see this kind
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: of time after time after time again, and in some
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: cases it leads to some positive things like ESAU or
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: the Danger Species Act, or you have a pop culture
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: event that drives sales of a you know, animal that's
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: you know, going to be poached out of extinction. So
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: it's a really interesting way of looking at this and
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: analyzing in a.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: Way what you realize you'll see Joe if you continue
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: you watching that the pathology behind everyone, the law enforcement,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: they're going after their prize, right, they're going they're going
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: after their big trophy. Is the bad guy, the bad guy,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: you know, the dealer, the smuggler, is going after the
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: rarest reptile. The Zoo's got very competitive with reptile houses
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: in the seventies and eighties because they started realizing they
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: were very popular. Some one of the most popular things
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: in zoos are the reptile houses. They wanted the kmmoto dragon,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: the rare reptile, so and the collector like guys like
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: me that really dig reptiles wanted like the pink you know,
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: glopicus landing go on and that no one has or
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: that this on the unattainable. So everyone kind of is
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: going after each other, the reptile, the you know, the Feds,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: you're going after the bad guys.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: And it's a similar pathology.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: And what you find out in the end of the
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: series is there's a scene where law enforcement has something
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: that you can't believe and it's a little like doing
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: a film about you know, cocaine cowboys and the law
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: enforcement has a garage full of heroin and cocaine that
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: they're selling. So it's it's like it gets very gray,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: and the psychology is similar.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: Between the only difference between the prisoner and the guard
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: at the bars. Well that's the sort of.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: And you'll see there's no clear right and wrong, and
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: sometimes the laws don't work, so it's messy and sometimes
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: there should be laws where there aren't laws. You know,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: back to the marijuana islands, get back to the marijuana analogy,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: Like fucking how twisted is that someone goes to prison
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: for forty years of a plot and now you can
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: go to a weed shop every corner in Oklahoma. Right.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: But it's a very messy, complex story that was hard
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: to weave together, and I think it was the most
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: challenging for us, certainly more challenging than Tiger the most proudly.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: It's really deep and it's it's a it's a good one.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: And we lived and we lived for now.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: You guys spend a lot of time on these Yeah,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: this is one of the things that I've found shocking.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: While you were just a gussing this, you were saying
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: it was like six years more more, how many? So
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: when did you plant the seed.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: Well, the seed was planted really in my head when
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: I read this book The Lizard King in two thousand
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: and eight, and I tried to buy the rights from
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: this author, Brian Christie, who wrote this incredible book, The
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: Lizard King, in two thousand and eight, So that's almost
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: twenty years ago. I didn't start filming until twenty fourteen
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: with Josh Saftie, and that was the beginning, but Tiger
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: King and other things got in the way. So yeah,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: maybe six years if it was, if we were to
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: condense that time.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 3: But when we saw you a couple of years ago,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: we were, you know, we were making many projects along
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: this cause you know, you can't do them all.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: It's a it's a very unstructured way of working.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: We don't have a certain amount of shoot days. It's
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 3: it's kind of a flow. We like these longitudies.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: We shoot multiple projects at the same.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: Time, you know, and we're lucky because a lot of
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: our worlds are in certain places, so you know, it's
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: one stop shopping in Florida. There's a lot of interesting people,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: a lot of colorful people that are you know, are
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: hitting some of these themes that we're exploring in different works,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: So I think so we're able to kind of do that.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 3: But the duration, the duration is great because, like you know,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: sometimes constraints are no I think it's great in some ways,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: becau if you're able to kind of balance other work,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: because you know, holding out for access to a really
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: important person might not happen in the first go around,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: but you know a year later or two years later.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: What is the common factor that you guys, is it
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: fucked up people like that you guys are looking for
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: when you decide what kind of documentaries you're making, Not.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: Just like that would be off too superficial, like, well,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: there's too many fucked up people out there.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: Fucked up people in connection with wildlife is the theme
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: of the Big Three that you've got.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: And people that have a story that's somewhat hidden in there.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: So we cast a wide fucking net, like we filmed
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: shark people and taxidermis and the guy that reads the
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: most long tail, the cap monkeys for medical research where
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: we got OVID from. We're filming so many different subcultures
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: of animal people and other people and then you sort
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: of hone in on something and so the monkey mom
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: thing became chim crazy, you know, and we started seeing
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: a story there. So it's not like we just go
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: out and just lock into something and there's a story.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: We have to kind of find it. And I would
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: say this is not a good recipe for people that
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: want to make documentaries, Like anyone's starting out in life
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: to try to make dogs. Don't do what we do
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: because it's not a good way to get rich, and
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: it takes forever and you may never have a story.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: And so it's like, that's what I'm getting at. It's
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: it's like, we got.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: Lucky that Joe Exotic tried to kill Kella Basket while
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: we were filming. We got lucky in a sense that
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: and we got lucky he didn't kill her, And we
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: got lucky in a sense that Tanya kidnapped a chimpanzee.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: This is not a recipe for success. You know, we
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: do film, film, film, We do a lot of shit
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: that no one ever sees.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: Joe e'sottic dms me all the time on Instagram.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: I was still, Yeah, he wants to get out.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a way maybe we can get them out.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: By the way, I'll tell you I want the show.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you after this sho you want.
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: Him to get out.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: You know, the government made a deal with him before
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: the trial. They said, well give it, you can do
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: six years or you're going to have a trial six years.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: He's been in jail now for nine years or whatever
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: it's been. He would be out right now if he
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: made that deal. He thought he was going to get off.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: And I was like Joe. I was on the phone
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: with them every day at the time from prison.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: I said, take the deal.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not into throwing people in prison
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: and throwing away the key forever.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: Time is in jail too.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: You know, we're good at the perjury.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: I think she doesn't deserve to be there for four years, you.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: Know for perjury.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: Well, she didn't need to kidnap another chimp. You know,
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: we tried to help her, but she didn't. She was
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: her own worst enemy. Anyway.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: People are obsessed.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 3: I think also what attracts the crime element is the
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: sentence scene is low for wildlife trafficking, wildlife crime.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: But did they really consider that when they're getting involved, like, oh, no,
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: big deal, only do four years?
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: They really think about way back to it? They keep
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: doing it.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think that's big as they're obsessed, they're
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: trying not to get caught. Then I don't think they're
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: looking at it and balancing out the low sentence rate
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: and going out this is a good thing to get
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: involved in. I think that Heroin it's a pretty stiff crime.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: I think it's a risk factor that's considered, and especially
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: in the sense of life.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: I think most of them, Jeremy, I think most of
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: them think they're going to get away with it, or
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: they're smarter than the fence.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: But they have this sort of you know, worst case
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: thinking about if there was something to happen, it's you know,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: eight months in a camp, right.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: You know a lot of them go to prison multiple
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: times while we were filming the show. During the filming,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: we were shocked at one of the lead guys in
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: our film was under investigation being indicted. He didn't tell
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: us and then finally he say guys, I'm going to prison,
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: and we don't cover it in the show because it
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: was just too much. But we were like, why you've
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: been filming with us for two years and you're going
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: to prison now. And then he finally got out of prison,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: we filmed him more and he's got an ankle brace
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: and he'd been prisoned five years before that or I
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: don't know, eight years before that. So there's a lot
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: of what was he going to prison for this time
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: for smuggling turtles that were going out to Asia?
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: Three striped mud turtles.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that we're no longer bringing wildlife into buy and collectly,
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: it's actually coming out of our country into China.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, what stuff are we exporting to China?
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: Well, there was a lot of it's eric. The one
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: recently that happened.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: I just took I just took it. I just took
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: out a confiscation three weeks ago, three hundred three toed
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: box turtles that come out of the central part of
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: the US Oklahoma, Missouri. And two weeks later a guy
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: was busted coming into Mexico with turtles, and I took
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: those turtles from US Social Wildlife Service. So animals are
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: coming into the country out of Mexico, you know, different countries.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: And then we're exporting now, which is new in the
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: last ten years, a lot of native turtles and reptiles
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: and other wildlife to Southeast Asia and Europe.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: How are they getting there?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: Mostly it's mostly air cargo carry on this particular confiscation
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: three weeks ago, they busted the guys with more box
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: turtles in their in their luggage once they got to
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: Hong Kong and China. Like I said, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Jakarta.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: The reptile industry is enormous for now keeping them as
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: exotic pets. Enormous. I mean it's you know, you know
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: in Asia, like the bird world. The birds are called
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: the cut flowers of the wildlife trade in Asia because
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: like we might have a bouquet or a plant in
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: our house, they have a bird cage in Southeast Asia,
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: and there's something like some insane statistic about how many
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: people have a bird in their house. And when you
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: go to the bird markets in Jakarta, it's just surreal.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: Or in Thailand there's there's one in Bangkok called chata
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: Chat Market. These huge animal markets. You know, we talk
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: about where COVID came from, but the scale of these
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: animals markets, you know, bush meat, wildlife, it's it's on
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: a scale that's beyond your imagination.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: But actually what are they selling.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: They're selling reptiles, They're selling birds for meat. No, no,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: these are for pets.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, birds are ornamental in your house. You have a
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: song bird, you have an owl, you have it.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: Whatever.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: You can't believe. There are people that are so they
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: just have like a wildlife mall. It's effectively an enormous
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: wildlife from an outdoor mall. Yeah.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: And in that within that mall, there's also seafood, and
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: then there's the reptiles, and then there's the birds.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: It's like messy, No wonder, maybe COVID came from that.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: COVID didn't come from that. I don't know it came
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: from a fucking lab. I think you're maybe right.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: I have a friend blessed as Hearty, he's a good
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: friend of mine. He said it was a zoonotic disease.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: It didn't come from a lab. But now I'm beginning
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: to think it might have come.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people were influenced to say
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: that it was a natural spillover because they didn't want
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: to admit that we were working around with gain of
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: function research.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: I think the evidence now shows.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: That pretty clearly. But also it seems like if you
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: see these kind a lab or excuse me, these markets,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: you would say, what is this right here? Jeremy market,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: which this is one of those markets.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: Oh this, I've been to these markets in Jakarta.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just a wildlife market and so it's
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: all pets. So what is it about Asia that has
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: such a desire for animals?
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: Those are the Hurry Powter Those are the Harry Potter els.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: That footage is Yeah, like.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: What it is wealth same same things in the US
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: that we're driving.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: You out, but it's also more common in Asia.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: Well there's in China alone, there's over a billion people,
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: so there's just more people and and the just the
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: scale and the size of Asia and China is much
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: bigger than the US and Europe combined, so they have
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: a bigger market. And the climate's pretty good to keep
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: exotic animals like Florida. So it's just it's like you know,
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: on steroids, the collectors in Asia.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: And why I think that I think that the industry,
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: the trafficking numbers so underpreported. Is you know you have
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 3: this there's like one person, one person that is responsible
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: for coordinating in the US. One person she's in Delaware
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: who's responsible for coordinating with US fish and wildlife to
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 3: to deal with you know, these these placements of confiscated wildlife,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: if they're able to even detect them. I think it
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: was something like ten thousand animals in the last few years.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: We're coming through LA's Lax basically the Torrents, the border
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: and Lax. It's it's very one little sample market.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: It's very understaffed, undermanned to build and manage all the
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: wildlife coming in and out of the country.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: There's even with dogs and detection advancement, they're finding ways
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: to get get animals out and then and then the
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 3: sad truth is that they've never been starved and dehydrated.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 3: You know, recovering them is impossible. You know, You've gotten
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: lucky with rewilding animals back into New Jersey and stuff
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 3: like that through his organization. But you know, it's a
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: it's a it's a it's a harmful reality that is
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: actually still happening.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: You know, we thought ourselves the percentage wildlife that leaves
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: the country or leaves the country native wild to this
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: the US, it's like fifty percent is kind of marine
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: stuff like coral and invertebrates that are in the ocean,
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: and the rest is mostly reptiles, mostly turtles, mammals, are
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: very small these days, birds are very small. So for
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, you know, turtles and the US has the
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: most out of any country in the world. We have
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: more species of turtles and tortoises in any country in
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: the world. We have fifty one species in the US.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: Mexico second, you know, India I think is maybe third.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: But so Asia now really wants these turtles where you
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: grow up, you know, in New Jersey and other places
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: where we have these really cool turtles, spotted turtles, bog turtles,
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: wood turtles, really beautiful colored Eastern box turtles.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: Once they get to Asia, they're in the many thousands
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: of dollars.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: The shipment that just went out that we received the
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: confiscation from it was about half a million dollars just
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: those turtles once they get to China, so it's big money,
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: and they use mule and the people they got arrested
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: or busted usually aren't the real ones that are, you know,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: organizing the whole thing. It's like drugs.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a good thing about this docu series is
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: that you guys are exposing this to people because I
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: think most people would be completely unaware.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: No idea, yeah, no idea, no idea where you know zoos,
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: you know animals and the zoos came from.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: Is there an issue with people stealing eagles and trying
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: to import them as pets.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: So raptors are really interesting. So that sector of the
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: bird world, I mean, the bird world is so vast.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: There's the song bird people, there's the parent people, really
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: high end you know hyacinth of the cause that are
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: so expensive one highacynth the cause, like you know, sixty
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars today or fifty thousand or whatever it is,
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: forty thousand. But raptors are increasingly popular in the Middle East,
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: you know, golden eagles and all these really far out
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: birds of prey. And in the US we have really
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: strict laws when it comes to birds of prey and
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: owning them and falcyrie.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy is that falconry guy. He loves falconry.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: But it's gotten more popular again around the world having
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: you know, big birds of prey.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: Because it's interesting. You know, I have friends that live
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: in Alaska, and in Alaska eagles are really common, like
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: they're all over the place up there, like they don't
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: even think anything of them. Yeah, you know, especially the
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: guys who go salmon fishing. When they come back from
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: salmon fishing, you literally have like thirty forty eagles just
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: waiting on the lawn for these boats to arrive because
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: they know that they're going to throw the carcasses out.
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: Bald eagles, yeah, bald eagles. Yeah. I would imagine some
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: people would want those as a pet, especially in other countries.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, in the US, only Native Americans can
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: have like eagle parts unless you have a permit, Like
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: it's parts, well, you know, like feathers for their addresses.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: Like Native Americans can still do things with them.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: So if you have a stuffed eagle in your house,
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: that's illegal.
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: I think it's illegal.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: And those guys they stuff you an eagle, well that
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: that would be interesting. That's where we draw the lawn.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 3: By the way that I don't know if they actually
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: have them, but we have this footage. I mean, imagine
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: going in the confiscations room at LAX It's incredible. Oh really, yeah,
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 3: it's incredible. You have, like, you know, tiger, you know,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: just all this rare animal and transformed into so many
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 3: objects at home, a table, a rug, pool cues.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: I was reading about this that there was a place
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: in China where people could go to eat endangered species
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: and they would have an endangered species menu and they
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: would have like a dinner every now and then, you know,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: like rarely, but it was by invitation only, and these
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: like super weird wealthy people would go out there and
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: they would you know, eat.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: If you're listening to invite us, you know, it's funny.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: It's fucked up you say that, but make it back.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: It's funny you say that because you know, we once
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: went to this big turtle show in China and you know,
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: there's you know, it's this huge turtle show like a
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: car show, and there's girls like in skimpy outfits with banners,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: like you know, like a car show, but it's massive,
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: and all these rare turtles are selling as pets. But
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: then for lunch they have these like dim sum tables
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: that are around and everyone served turtle soup. And it's like,
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: how twisted is that? It would be like, you know,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: a reptile show in the US, and we have lots
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: of reptile shows in the US, and now at lunchtime
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: you're eating reptiles. China is a whole different.
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: I think it's this visibility paradox thing. You have this
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 3: you know, charismatic, you know, symbolic thing. There's very very few,
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: a lot of protection around them. People want it about eagles,
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 3: just talking about what people want, what they don't they
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: can't have. That's the through line in this world.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: But eagles actually, for for rare eagles are like American alligators.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: They've bounced back since DDT. And and you know the
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: book that what's her name did in this in this
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: late sixties seventies, Silent Spring, that was the book that
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: really changed everything for eagles and birds of press. Her
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: book what was her name? Silent Spring, the author, she
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: changed everything because no one listened to her about d
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: DT and pesticide which were making the eggs of birds
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: of prey not viable. And it really took, really took.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: Rachel Carson really took a toll. Rachel Carson was an
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: unsung hero. People should know her name, and I forgot
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: it for a minute, but she really is why you
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: have bald eagles, you know, making that on the verge
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: of extinction because of pesticides we were using because of
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: d DT was doing this thing to the eggs where pelicans,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: birds of prey were disappearing at alarming rates because of
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: spraying of d DT.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: For agriculture, for pesticides. Wow.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: And then we banned it and eagles and birds of
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: prey came back, yeah, peregrine falcons, all of it.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: Bald eagles, golden eagles. Yeah, yeah, anyway, Yeah, yeah, it's
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: a that's it's a weird animal. The bald eagle. That
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: that's our pet, that's our national animal.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: So it's strange. It's a heartless raptor.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: It's a fishing eagle. There are fishing eagles all over
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: the world that are similar to bald eagles. It's a
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: fishing eagle, that's what it is.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: It's just such a cool one.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: And it's something about watching them swim away with a
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: salmon their talons. Yeah.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 3: Well, and also photography has gotten so much better over
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 3: the years, right you can, and I know there's probably
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 3: a video right where we live.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: Where we live. There was that eagle cab and there
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: was a sick eagle, bald eagle, and it was take
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: It became California, yeah, where we lived, and it became
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: national news two weeks ago.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: Golden bald bald really yeah.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they if you Google bald eagle California. It's
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: in the town we live in where they took it
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: and they're bringing it back to health. But the amount
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: of money that poured in to help that eagle was unbelievable.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: Wow, for this little place.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: Going back to how people care, it's it's remarkable.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: But people care more about eagles than had that been
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: a turtle or a snake that was wrestled.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the eagles Americas, am I mean, people have
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: a tattooed on their back. Yeah, there's something about an eagle.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 3: It's just iconic.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of snake tattoos these days, but.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's something about the
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: eagle tattoos different.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: It's like why, But then the grizzly bear such an
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 3: adverse reaction, so controversial.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: They eat a lot of people. I mean, there's a
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: reason why the California state flag has a grizzly bear
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: on it and there's no grizzly bears in California.
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 3: We have a friend that's actually trying to bring them back.
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: Good luck.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: We mentioned this to you last time and you were like,
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: why or something.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: Let them naturally return. Reintroduction is always a disaster. Reintroduction
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: of wolves in Colorado right now is a fucking disaster.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: Well, they're back. They've now migrated into California and they've
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: been some wolf's sightings even down in quite.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: A few A friend of mine filmed one. We showed
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: it on the podcast. A filmed one near Bakersfield. Yeah,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: a black wolf that was out in the field near Bakersfield. Yeah,
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: they can go incredibly long distance.
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 2: Reintroduction works in some places. It's getting better. I have
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: a good friend that's reintroducing jaguars back to northern Argentina.
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: They're doing a pretty good job. But yeah, it's tricky
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: like condors.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: California different in reintroducing animals to where there's agriculture and
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: where there's a bunch of animals that are in pens
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: and then they start eating them.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: No, no, don't do that.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: That's what Colorado's experiencing now.
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But I've worked with Ted Turner's group for many
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: years in New Mexico on reintroduction programs and the guy
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: that did the wolf re wilding of gray wolves is
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: this guy named Mike Phillips who works for Turner, And yeah,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: they have a real pr problem. You know, and grizzlies
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: are going to be a bigger pr problem.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: To get people to wrap their arms around that idea
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: of bringing grizzlies back to com.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: Well, there's certain states where they're overpopulated and there's a
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: lot of argument that they should be relisted and that
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: people should be able to hunt them again like they
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: do in Alaska.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: But the Native Americans in California do buy and large
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: want grizzlies back, and they have this new technology that
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: might be able to keep them kind of in certain areas.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: It hasn't they haven't figured out fully yet, but hopefully
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: they keep them in a certain area because you know,
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: grizzlies migrating into La like the wolves right now might
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: not be a good idea.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: Well, you already have the mountain lions. There's a great
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: video the other day. I don't know if you guys
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: saw it of a mountain in the guy's backyard in
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: Santa Monica. Yeah, big cat, I have them in my
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: backyard all the.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: Time's motivated by displacement from fires.
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: Right, it's also pets. We like to eat people's pets. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: we have these cass too close we're talking about. They
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: eat them all the time. Pets get snatched all the time, Jeremy.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: This woman down the street from me was walking her
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 2: dog at three in the afternoon. The mountain lion grabbed
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: her dog. She's literally on Ladera, She's walking her dog,
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: a little dog, and the mountain lion just jumped and
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: grabbed herug. She's looking at the dog holding a leash
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: and goes, I better let go of this leash, and
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 2: she did, and she never saw a dog.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: He's sort of saying, this little particular suburban pocket of
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 3: Santa Monica, it's not very common.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: Where I live they eat people because you don't see
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: them where I live.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: They eat dogs. Where I live.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: The mountain lions are eating people's dogs from time to time.
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: They do it all the time. We were talking about
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: Marine count I think it's well, it's Bay Area wherever
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: it is, where they have these depredation tags where they
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: have to shoot problem mountain lions because they're eating pets
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: and they find out that that's half their diet. Half
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: their diet is pets.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I see them on my cameras that we had
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: these motion detector cameras, and we see them at three
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: in the morning right in front of my house. I
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: rarely see them with the naked off.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: Is that crazy?
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 3: Well, one gets hit by a car and they build
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 3: a bridge across the road. You know, it was kind
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 3: of amazing.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: You've got a nice mountain lion in the lobby out there.
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: That was from my friend Adam. He hunted that in Colorado.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: That was a depredation mountain lion. That mountain lion had
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: picked a ranch and it was killing all the calves
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: and they actually got to it right after it had it.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: It didn't even kill it. It was eating it while
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: it was alive, and then it ran. They ran it.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: All the dogs had ranted off the carcass. They had
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: to shoot this calf. It was just torn apart and
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: still suffering alive, and then they killed it.
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: Luckily, where I am, we have a lot of deer
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: and we find a deer carcass from time to time.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: That's a mountain lion kill.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Yeah.
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: But you know, back to our show, I want to
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: just say one other thing about sort of the ending,
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: which it was really fortuitous. I just want to bring
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: it up even though you're not there yet.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: But it's spoiler alert.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not really the spoiler alert, But I'll say this.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: I spent about twenty years working in Madagascar with some
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: rare madagascar and tortoises, and eventually I was trying to
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: save this tortoise in Madagascar, and I did a sixty
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: minutes piece with Leslie Stall took her to Madagascar, a
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: New Yorker piece on this tortoise. I failed, everyone failed.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: The tortoise functionally went extinct to Madagascar. The poaching was
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: so intense, and the tortoise had a.
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 3: Very Where does the Plashia tortoise?
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: Well's a reptile that arguably has the most value in
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: the petrade over almost any other reptile in the world.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: There may be something close, like a Fiji and iguana
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: or maybe a kmmodo dragon, but it's you know, some
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: of them can be worth as much as one hundred
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: grand And people in Madagascar are so poor, in especially
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: in the area where this animal comes from, and it
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: only existed in a tiny part of northern Madagascar. That's it.
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: It is, So where are they going to Asia?
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: There's a direct flight out of Madagascar to Bangkok and
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: so and they're pets.
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of those photos I made, So is
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: it possible to buy them in Asia and bring them
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 1: back to Madagascar.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: Well, so this is where I'm going very hard to
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: do that because of health screening. I took that photo
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: over there with that little guy. I took the you
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: know some of these photos I even took. Actually, oh,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: that's that's the guy that worked for us. Anyway, I've
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: been working with this species of tortoise for almost twenty
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: years and we were able to get some confiscated pleasure
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: tortoises out of China and Taiwan, and we waited patiently
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: for fifteen years to try to breed them. And right
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: when we finished this show, and this is a tortoise
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: that's never been bred successfully in the western world. No
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: zoo institutions have tried to breathe them and failed. We
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: were lucky enough to get our first hatchling of this
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: really endangered tortoise right when we finished the show, and
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: so we filmed it and it made it into the
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: end of the show. But it's a story about the
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: reptile train, and this was the story in the end
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: of the show about a confiscated group of animals that
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: came from the reptil trade. The rarest and most valuable
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: tortoise in the world and today we're trying to bring
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: it back to Madagascar, which we're working on, which is
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: happening as we talked.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: To and is the problem that if you bring them
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: back to Madagascar, people are going to go to mascar
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 1: and steal them again and then use them in the
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 1: pet trade.
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: So yes to be blunt, and so it's somewhat symbolic,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: it's somewhat about showing Madagascar that we're not trying to
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: profit and take their natural heritage and you know what
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: they rightfully should have. So part of it is showing
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: that we can go full circle, confiscate an animal that
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: was in the illegal exotic reptil trade, breed it, and
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: then return it to Madagascar. But the part that no
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: one wants to talk about that's really controversial is in
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: this particular case, and it's not like one thing fits all.
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: I said this to the folks that are working with
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: this tortoise Amutagascar to try to save it. You know, hey,
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: the only way you're going to take sure off of
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: this tortoise, it's like drugs, is if you either legalize
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 2: drugs or in the case of drugs, or make this
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: tortoise available for people around the world, so they can
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: have it. Because it breeds quite easily, breed them, try
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: to have them in the private sector in institutions and zoos.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: They turn out not to be that difficult to breed,
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: even though no one's ever bred them in the Western world,
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: in Europe or the US.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: Well, it takes a long time to reach maturity.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: Well, it's an animal that takes longer twice as long
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: as a human or three times. They don't reach sexual
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: maturity until they're about thirty years old, forty years old.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 1: They can do it.
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: You can raise them faster in captivity than the wild,
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: so they are very slow to reproduce. They're not like
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: rabbits though they opposite, and there's so few of them,
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: and so they're very very rare, very valuable. The only way, ultimately,
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: I think you can really take the pressure off of
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: the poaching is to allow people to start to have them.
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: That's a radiated tortoise, which we also.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: Brow that is wild.
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 3: So the dremaline is a way to.
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: Well, sir, we are value.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: Our organization is the group with dull that did this
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: drembling to try to deface them, like cutting off a
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: rhino horns so poachers wouldn't take them. So we were
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: dremaling those tortoises shell to basically deface the tortoise so
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: poachers would not take the tortoises. It ultimately didn't work.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: So they're just taking them because they're beautiful and if
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: you fuck up their shell, they.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: Have the most They have the highest dome shell of
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 2: any tortoise in relation to the size, so they have
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: an incredible longevity, well over one hundred.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: Years they live, and their gold and so that dremaling
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: that you did, that's indicate that's the top of it
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, yeah, and that didn't help. We did that.
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: You can see it over there at the center. That's
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: called the verchibral scoots of the tortoise, and we drembled
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: them and we put MG for Madagascar and a number
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: and we were hoping that defacing the tortoise would make
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: collectors not want to have them, but it didn't work
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: in the end.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: Somebody told me this a good time to bring this up,
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: that turtle shells, when you look at a turtle show,
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: it's almost representative of a calendar, and that there is
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: around the outside edge of the turtle, there's like twenty
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: eight different little squares, and then in the center there's thirteen.
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: So it's basically like a thirteen day or thirteen month,
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: twenty eight day lunar calendar. Yeah, this is it. How
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: weird is that? Yeah, that's really a lunar calendar on
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: a turtle's back.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know a lot of turtle facts.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: I did not know that one. Actually, I know that one.
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of cultures like Asia and American
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: Indians believe that the Earth sits on a turtle.
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's turtles all the way down. It's turtle Simpson song.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know about that. That's interesting.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: Wow, isn't that weird? Yeah, that's interesting. Why what is
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: that all about? Like, that's very strange that it coincide.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: It's like exact to what a lunar calendar is. Yeah,
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: very strange.
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's super interesting. I mean, turtles have been on
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: planet Earth longer than dinosaurs. They've been here for over
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: two hundred million years, so they've been around a long time,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: so it's been people have been playing with turtles forever,
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: so maybe they came up with a lot of things
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: that relate to turtles.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: But it's odd that it syncs up with a twenty
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: eight day lunar calendar.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: I know sports stadiums are in the beginning, or things
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: that were shaped like that, like a geodesic dome came
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: somewhat from the how turtles are designed, Like there was
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: some architectural thing that came it makes sense from turtles.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like the geodesic, like the structure of it to
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: keep rigidity.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I know turtles the first writing,
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: the earliest writing was on the plast on the bottom
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: of a turtle shell in China, maybe some of the
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: earliest writing really going back some really, I don't know,
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: a couple of thousand years. So turtles have been used
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: for all kinds of things, for writing, for medicinal medicine,
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: especially in Asia. It's gone back thousands of year. Is
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: using turtles for chi and for you know, vitality and
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: all these kinds of things. If you get sick, you
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 2: make some turtles.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of weird stuff with that, a lot
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: of stuff to rhino horn things for boners, like hey, guys.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: Well they really like they really they really put the bureacle.
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 1: Bone script on the bottom of a turtle shell looking cool.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: That looks go back to that beautiful right, beautiful.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: Six thousand, two hundred b C. Six hundred to six thousand,
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: two hundred BC. You don't go to the images again
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: of the writing on it. Look how cool that writing is.
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, this one's beautiful, right, that one's beautiful. That's wild,
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: but I think it was some of the earliest writing
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: was on turtle shells, like, well.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: It sounds like it if it's six thousand BC six
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 1: thousand BC, I mean that's that predates ancient Babylonia yea,
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: or at least what we know about it.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: So turtles have been used in Native American culture forever.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot of extinction events. That's oxygen, but
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 3: it's a turtle shell.
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, box scapula.
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are turtle farms in China that you
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: cannot believe. They're breeding these turtles, mostly Asian box turtles,
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: Chinese box turtles, and these people are multi multimillionaires and
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 2: they sell one turtle for as much as like twenty
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars one turtle, and the wildcot turtles are more
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: valuable than the farm turtles. But there's turtle farms that
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: are breeding. They're called Golden coin turtles. It's a Chinese
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: Asian turtle that can fetch huge amounts of money.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: Why is the wild one worth more?
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: It's like wild rhino horn is worth more because they
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 2: think the wild rhino eats things that are medicinal versus
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: just a captive rhino that's eating hay. And it's the
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 2: stuff they eat that goes into the horn, which makes sense,
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: like your fingernail its keratin. So the wild rhino horn
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: is going to have more good stuff for you. And
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: of course they'll probably grate some viagra in it to
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 2: make you really believe that it gives you an direction.
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: You know they'll cheat, but no, no, it actually works well.
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: They do great their viagrate in the rhinohorn sometimes.
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 2: But the wild turtle is just eating things and has
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: more chi than the farm turtle. But they have these
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: enormous turtle farms, like you know, fifteen story buildings that
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: are all turtles.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: You're gonna see this, so wild turtle farms in China,
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: China turtle farms. And this is all just for pets, No,
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: this is for consumption. Is you'll pay twenty grand. Now
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: there's turtle twenty grand for consumption, for consumption, for like
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: a golden coin turtle. If it's a wild one, like
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 1: big money, they want to eat it.
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But then in China you can also pay one
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars for a U non box turtle. A
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: U non box turtle can be one hundred thousand dollars.
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: So these are these turtle farms. Yeah, but that's all
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: for like turtle soup.
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but these are soft shell turtles in this image
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 2: that you're looking at, I'm talking about things like golden
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: coin turtles, much more valuable turtles for consumption than these
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: soft shells.
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: Why are they worth more? Is it just because it's rare?
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: This guy, I know this guy, Guarden State turtle. I
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: know that guy in New Jersey. He's a good guy.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: Chrys Leone. Well, yeah, that's a golden coin turtle.
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: So we breed these in where we are where we
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: work with turtles, and we send these back to China
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: from time to time.
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, but why explain them? Why is it worth twenty thousands?
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: For whatever reason, this turtle is called a golden coin turtle.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 2: Cora trifalsiata is a scientific name, and it is very
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 2: coveted and apparently it has certain properties that can cure
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: cancer and other diseases. And so this turtle is high
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 2: on the list for consumption for medicinal reasons.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: But allegedly can cure cancer. R Yeah, is there any
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: false beliefs?
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: But you can see twenty grand, forty grand.
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: Twenty grand, as high as forty grand for a fucking turtle. Yeah,
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: tend to eat it.
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but then there's turtles that it can be one
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: Or two hundred. So is it just because it's difficult
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: to acquire that it's like a status thing that it's
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: worth twenty or forty thousand dollars.
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: Well, they're very rare in the wild now, but they
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 2: farm them, but they're very endangered. It's critically endangered turtle.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 2: We breathe them, you know, at my facility. But you know,
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of people in China, and if you
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: want to save someone's life, you'll pay whatever it takes
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: to say so.
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: When they're buying it for twenty thousand dollars, they're buying
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: it to try to save someone's life.
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 2: Or someone sick, or they really want good health and wealthy.
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you could just get it, just as like, yeah,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: a prophylactic turtle, you eat it from medicine to make
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: sure you don't get sick. Something like that. Sounds insane
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: though that it's twenty thousand dollars for a turtle.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: But if you if you look up Unon box turtle,
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 2: it was thought to be extinct for fifty years and
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: they rediscovered it. And a unon box turtle today, if
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: you could even get one, would be hundreds of thousands
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: of dollars. Another turtle similar to that.
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: Are they eating those two?
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 2: No, that one's so rare, there's so few of them.
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: That one is people buy it as an exotic pet.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: That's really rare, you know.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of a cat. It's a tricky situation
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: because and on one hand, if they're extinct in the
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: wild and these people have them as pets, maybe you
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: can recover them somehow or another.
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's not that's an American box turtle.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 3: That's not or they're in a zoo for example.
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 2: So that's why that's a turtle that's been shipped to
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: that's a US turtle from the East Coast that's being
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: sold and smuggled to China and other parts of Asia,
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: because look how beautiful our turtles are in the US.
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: That is a pretty turtle. Oh, you do have a
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: photo of a U non box turtle. It's just not
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: the one there. That bland thing is a Union box turtle.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: That one above it, the one that's kind of great there. No, No,
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 2: that's a three toad box.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: That one, that one, that.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: One, that one can be where that can be where
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 2: two hundred thousand dollars that turtle. That turtle was thought
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: to be extinct for over half a century.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: That's a boring ass turtle. That other one that you're
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 1: training on now, well, don't get me down the turtle
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: rabbit hole, but that one where your cursor was just
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: over the one that yeah, that guy, No, the one
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: to the left, the yeah, the right of it, right,
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: that one, Yeah, that one's cool. Ship.
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a male Eastern box turtle. They
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 2: always have red eyes.
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: It's so beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 3: But solutions to the scarcity part that's a mail is describing,
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 3: you know, pet pet trade can commercial commercializing aspects of
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 3: it can reduce What's.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: Important about this conversation actually is people think of ivory, rhinohorn,
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: you know, whales, and they have no idea that a
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: turtle pound for pound could be more valuable than a
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: rhino horn.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: Possibly, you know, a turtle idea.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: No, nobody knows this, but it's crazy what the money
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: involved in these back to the confiscations we're getting, and
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: the trade and turtles going out of this country is
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: in the millions and millions and millions and millions, and
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 2: there are people in China and other parts of Asia
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: that are getting very rich in the turtle trade. And
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: we always think here about panglin scales, rhinohorn, you know, ivory,
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 2: and those things are important, but the turtle trade is
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: really massive, and the reptile trade is massive, and there's
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of money in it. And they're easy to
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: transport because a turtle doesn't eat and need to eat
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: or drink. Just wrap them in socks, put them in
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 2: a box, shove them all in there, put them in diapers,
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: tape them up, ship them.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: They don't even need much air if you have a
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: little air.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: But they have a very low blood pressure, not like
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: we have higher blood pressure than reptiles, and they can
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: live without water or food, as you know, for a
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 2: very long time. So they're you know, like wildlife nature
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: with handles, you can.
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 1: Just transport them, transport them and if they're really worth
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars to forty putting that in your bag, Yeah,
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: and they really are, they really are worth it. That
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: is crazy. I would have never guessed, and I would
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: never guess that it's for consumption. That's that's even more Well.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: No, the turtles that are leaving this country going to
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 2: China are for extra pets.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: But that one they're eating, yeah, the ones. Yeah, that
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: it's worth twenty thousand dollars. That's insane. At least. Is
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: there a market for snake meat.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you've been to Taiwan or China, there's
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: these snake bars where you can literally have a snake
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: bleed out while it's alive, a cobra, and put it
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: in your drink.
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: There's snakes. There's a snake can to talk about diarrhea.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: I was many years ago, my god, I.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: Was in me and mar and Burma at a snake
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: place and they were just loading snakes up in these trucks,
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: like you know, big trucks, just stacking snakes and they
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 2: were heading into China. So the snake meat, the snake.
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: Snake meat is big in China. You know.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: Look, tiger penis, tiger this tiger, tiger bones.
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: Tiger park, tiger penis, tiger penis. Tiger penis is a
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: big delicacy over there. I think they're you know, they're
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: were creative than we are. They eat a lot of stuff,
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: that's a fact. But the tiger penis thing, I wasn't
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: aware of. That's a delicacy.
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that does for you.
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's another Viagara kind of thing.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: But all you know, there's tiger farms and they part
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 2: them out and they sell them to China.
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 1: So there's tiger farms that are just for consumption.
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, tiger bone wine, tiger this.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: Tiger tiger bone wine. You know, but tigers, it's like
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: a rhino horned type deal.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 3: I think I think that's given them, I.
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: Believed to increase ferility and enhance male sexual performance.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 4: Don don dot tiger fallas suitis.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: But a turtle is worth more than a tiger.
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 1: Guy, that's crazy. And but I didn't know that there
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: was a market for tiger meat. And is it the
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: all the meat of the tiger are just dicks. Just
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 1: so chop away, Joe.
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 2: I've been to the turtle farms, I've been to the
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 2: snake bars.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: I haven't gotten into the penis the future of Chinese medicine. Hey,
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: this guy's doing a workshop.
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 3: You should go to this workshop.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: What is this guy teaching a couple of years ago.
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 1: He's on the run right now.
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: So they don't get me started to talk about animal penises.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 2: My favorite movie is a kid was a movie called
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: Birds Do It, Bees Do It. I don't even know
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: if it still exists, but all it was was animals
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: having sex from a praying man like eating the hat
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 2: off of the mail to a rhino, and it was
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: a great movie, just sex.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: I did not know that there was a market for
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 1: the meat. What is that tiger dick? Nice? I would
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 1: have thought it looked like crazy looking. That looks like
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 1: a newdo braank, a sea slowe. It looks like a
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: piece of sushi, definitely, it looks like a piece of
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: it looks like looks like something you get at sushi
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 1: by scratch. So when they're having these tiger farms or
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: they're farming the meat, like, how are they cooking tiger meat?
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: What does that go into.
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: Listen.
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: I'm really common over there.
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: Even though I did Tiger.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: King, I'm not an expert on tigers.
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 2: I do know a little bit more about reptiles. But
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: I have a friend that did a movie called I
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: think it's called what's it called. Karl Aman did a
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: movie about the tiger industry in Vietnam and farm in
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: Cambodia and.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: Farming tigers, and I think it's called God.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: I can't remember, but anyway, there's a whole tiger industry
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: and people breeding tigers in parts of Asia for tiger parts.
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 3: It's still illegal, but they definitely still do it.
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like, yeah, interesting consumption. Tiger meat is
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: highly illegal, though an illicit black market persists, primarily fueled
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 1: by commercial tiger farms. Despite strict domestic bands, thousands of
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: tigers are bread in captivity across the country, creating a
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: complex web of illegal luxury. Luxury consumption is a crazy word.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: That's a crazy phrase, luxury consumption of tiger meat. Traditional
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: beliefs and international conservation concern.
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: Well, it's what you just said earlier that started this
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: conversation that people go to restaurants and eat exotic animals
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: and bear gallbladder, bear gallblad. But another thing, ye wait
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 2: backtip monsters that God, look up Chinese giant salamander farms.
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 2: Those are unbelievable. That's a salamander this big.
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 1: That can eat you know, like a rat or a rabbit.
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: It's a salamander that they eat and farm in China.
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: I've seen that on line. I've seen them cook it
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: and that's TikTok videos. And that's a really rare animal
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: that those those guys are really rare, so oh really
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 1: and that yet they're still cooking them and eat them.
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: There's two types of giant salamoners. There's a Japanese giant
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: salamoner and the Chinese one. The Chinese one is massive,
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: is massive, and they're just it's.
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 4: The one I stumbled down that it says.
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 2: It's a it's a it's an incredible animal. But they
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: farm a lot of things that you would never think of. Yeah, turtles, salamanders.
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: I just the luxury consumption market, just seeing that phrase, like,
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: what a weird culture you have luxury consumption of highly illegal,
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: endangered species and it's that well, that was what a
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: friend of mine who had been to China said, that
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: was what the whole rhino horn thing was. It wasn't
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: even as much as they believed that it would do it.
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: It was just that this guy had rhino horns. Status
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: symbols very wealthy people. Guy's got to run. You want
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 1: some rhino horn tea? What's how gentlemen come to buy wine?
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: Cellar?
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 4: And in it?
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: I got some rhino horn.
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: I got a couple of turtles that were a couple.
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 3: What's difference between that and rare wine from fifty years ago?
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, an animal, it's just wine. Yeah,
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 1: you don't have tiger in your wine. What is the
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 1: tiger bone wine? What is that about?
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: Is a wine they soak in bones of tigers or
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: as a barrel? Is that what it is?
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: I mean they have saki with vipers in them. There's
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 2: a snake in Japan called the habo, and I remember
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 2: getting saki and this really incredible snake was in my saki.
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 2: But you know, like, look, we're hypocrites. In this country.
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: We eat tuna and they're endangered. In Asia they eat
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 2: other things.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: Are they endangered endangered?
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 2: Well, certain species are tuna, I think are becoming pretty endangered.
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: They're not what they were. They're certainly not the same
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 1: numbers that they used to be at the Turns Center.
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so I think it's it's easy to point
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 2: fingers at other parts of the world when we've done
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of things here. You know, we had passenger
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 2: pigeons that you know, made the skies dark, and we
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 2: shot every one of them. We have Carolina parakeet. We
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 2: almost got rid of our condors and bison. We've done
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of damage.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: But there's a lot of damage you and me, people, people,
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: people that lived here. It's not us.
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 2: Well, why is our show called Monsters of God. We're
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 2: the monsters, not the reptiles. We did a lot of
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: damage in the past, some of us.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very small percentage people that are out
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: there eating turtles.
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 2: Well, you're a good guy, and I know that. Actually
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: somehow you didn't have that maybe the mother I had,
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 2: but you must have had something good well with my
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 2: love of animals, Yeah, you got you got a good
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 2: moral compass.
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: I watched you. You you when you you know what's
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: right and wrong? Well, certainly eating tired dick. I think
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: there's better ways to go about your life.
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 3: But the recovery stuff is real. You know, there's a
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 3: lot of cool stuff happening with species recovery and in
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 3: this case the plows. Your tortoise is on its way back,
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 3: I mean you have to kind of still protect it
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 3: for a while. That's that's expensive. You anti poaching and security,
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 3: it's a.
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: Lot of work. I agree that it's important, but I
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 1: am also fascinated by our desire to sort of manage
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: nature because ninety whatever percent of any animal that's ever
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 1: been alive, ever is done. They're all extinct.
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: Everything goes extinct, and a lot of our good intentions
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: managing nature doesn't work.
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes, oh nos do a terrible job. I mean, especially
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: when we bring it an We were talking about this
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: yesterday with Hawaii. They brought in mongoose to eat the rats.
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: But mongoose are dironal.
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 2: Rats say each other, yeah, yeah, Hawaii. It's funny you
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: say Hawai because Hawaii is kind of the poster child
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: of all the states in the country of extinction. Second
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 2: is California. But Hawaii really fucked up Hawaii with cats.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: Mongos is we're more in the Caribbean, but also Hawaii
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: and mongos is why back to the Jamaican iguana. The
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 2: Jamaican iguana was extinct. We thought it was extinct because
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 2: of mongoose's we've just recently they found a small population,
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 2: but it's a very rare iguana.
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: Reading.
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 4: A very similar thing happened with the salamanders in China.
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 4: They were not originally thought of as anything special until
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 4: the mid twentieth century when famine forced people to find
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 4: new stuff to eat. They started eating them and liked it,
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 4: so they made a lot of places to do that.
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, and that's what led them to well, so.
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 4: Then they reintroduced them back into the wild because there
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 4: were too many of them, which created a new problem,
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 4: it says, created a new species. So now you have
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 4: hybrid salamanders, which is also like what we have that
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 4: here in Austin.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 3: It's the same story over and over again.
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: What did these fuckers look at the giants? Whoa can
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: I photos of a giant salamon?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: They are so massive, They're so massive.
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: Size that thing. There's a bunch of videos of guys
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: cooking them and walks outdoors. Yeah, and so is that
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: another thing where it's like one of those exotic things
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: that you're not supposed to have. And that's why they're
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: cooking it, because I mean, it looks like there's a
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 1: funny one where dudes say, he's like wrapping over it.
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 1: The guy's cooking about a guy cooking a dragon? Is
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 1: how you cook a dragon? Yeah, they're pretty impressive, but
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: it is a weird desire that people have to eat
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: something like incredibly exotic and rare. Whoa look at that sucker.
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 2: That's a real one.
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, giant salamonder cook eight ways in the I don't
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: know what that word is, men, gay men, seafood China.
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 2: You know, that was one creature we wanted to film
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: and I never got to film for Monsters of God
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 2: because that also is a monster of God.
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: So these guys are taking them. They're alive, and they're
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 1: going to bring them over and kill them and cook them.
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: So this is an endangered animal that this guy's killing
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: and cooking. Wow, that's crazy, but.
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 3: They sort of know it. It's not by necessity.
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 1: They know it's in danger, and he's still boiling it up.
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: So it's a this the fact that this luxury item
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: that you get to eat, this luxury item look like
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: see what it looks like at the end. Kind of crazy.
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 1: A lot of meat it looks delicious. Yeah, would you
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 1: eat it if you were there? Or would you feel bad?
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't eat it, But I've been it's already there,
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: though it's already dead.
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: I've been in Southeast Asia with friends that eat dog,
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: you know, and I just couldn't eat it. But I'm
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 2: not very adventurous. I can't.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: I don't have the only way I eat the dogs
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 1: if we try to bite one of my kids, you know.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: But if it's like dogs is different.
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 2: You know, we eat cattle, and in India they don't
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 2: eat cows, and then other places eat horses and then
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: they eat dogs. Sure, we have our own, you know,
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 2: sort of cultural norms about certain animals that we just
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 2: can't wrap ahead on the way. But I've seen dogs
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 2: being killed in Silhawesi by huge numbers in Indonesia, just
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 2: the way they kill them, and then they take these
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 2: blow torches and burn the hair off of them, and
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 2: people buy them just like you're in a regular grocery
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 2: store the way they you know, and it's just what's
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 2: normal in one culture. Those are snapping turtles, American snapping turtles.
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 2: What's normal these?
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: So have these been imported into Asia?
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they they're big and we still ethos. By the way,
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: New Orleans in the Southeast, we eat snapping turtles as
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 2: we eat them, we eat them in gumbo.
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: But in Asia they really love our American turtles. And
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: snapping turtles are not endangered in America, no, but alligator
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: snapping turtles are. Those things are crazy looking.
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is it? This which you have in Texas?
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 2: What they they're an ambush predator. They have a little
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: pendage on their top.
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 1: Is incredible. They've got alligators. They're serving alligator crocoiles, crocodiles, crocs.
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, imagine just hanging out there watch his buddies
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: get butchered.
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: You're good at finding gruesome stuff over there. I mean
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of You're gonna really there's a lot
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 2: of gross a lot of people.
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 1: So you know, you see, you guys have a bunch
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: of projects always kind of in the works, Like how
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: do you go about choosing them? Just like find these
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: very bizarre people and these very bizarre niche groups, and and.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 2: I think you know, listen, I am more aware of
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 2: time as I get older. So you got to choose
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 2: carefully what you want to do, because it takes time
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 2: to make these projects, so you know, a lot of them.
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: We hope there's some silver lining or something maybe positive
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 2: about telling these stories and not just frivolous stories about
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 2: freaky people.
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 1: You know, but it helps to have some freaky people.
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 2: In a story to make people interested sometimes, but that's
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: not the real goal. We're also doing projects I have
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with wildlife, you know. I did a
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 2: documentary in the last ten years about my mom and
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 2: my parents, and you know, I don't know if anyone
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 2: will ever see that, and they both died, you know,
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 2: but I did that to keep them relevant. And I
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 2: had a crazy family, a gay father and a crazy
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 2: mother who was into animals, and so you know, everyone
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 2: has a crazy family. But we did a story that
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 2: we're working on about New York, and we're also doing
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: some other animal stories. So not everything gets you see
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 2: the light of day, right.
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 1: But these last three big ones that you guys did
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 1: are all about people, and they're bizarre relationship with strange animals. Yeah,
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 1: what else? What's next?
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're doing a really interesting project right now
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 2: that should come out next year that I think you
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: will like. Joe, I have to say, there are big
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 2: carnivores in it again, and some really far out people
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 2: that you know and you may have known personally. I
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 2: don't think I can tell you who they are, but
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 2: they're they were very famous and some anyway, But we're
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 2: doing a project about.
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: That, and we're doing what a tease you are?
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 2: I had two much coffee. Sorry.
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: And then we're really interested in a few other.
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: Topics that people don't really talk about. We always talk
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 2: about the charismatic megafauna, and we're interested in some of
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 2: the groups of animals that we don't even think about.
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 3: But it's also I mean, this time we live in media.
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 3: You know, there's so much stuff that gets made that
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 3: no one sees, and it's a shame, especially you know,
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 3: some of this independent work, especially some of this documentary work.
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 3: It takes many, many, many years, and many people are
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 3: only really able to show to the people that know
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 3: about the issues, and nothing happens, especially if there's an
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 3: impact aspect to it. So I think our formula is great.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 3: It happens to be, you know, these subcultures that have
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 3: a higher propensity of finding crazy people or people with
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 3: far up beliefs. More than anything, it's more beliefs that
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 3: are more interesting that make us curious. So I think
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 3: I think that's the sort of mixture of conservation storytelling
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 3: plus far out beliefs, you know, in a niche that
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 3: are able to zoom out and talk about themes of
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 3: extinction or attachment or ego or crime.
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 1: You know, maybe there's something to the overfishing thing to do, because.
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 2: It's been a lot of it's a huge issue. There's
• 2:13:02
  Speaker 2: been a lot done on it, but I think there
• 2:13:05
  Speaker 2: hasn't been a dock on overfishing the problem. But the
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 2: problem with a lot of those traditional documentaries they tend
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 2: to preach to them. They tend to preach to the
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 2: converted and not the unconverted. And you want to reach
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 2: a bigger audience by somehow telling that story about overfishing
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 2: in a way where you can get more people seeing it.
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 2: They don't know the issue. And the other thing I
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 2: would just say, overfishing is a big deal invertebrate's insects, butterflies,
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 2: and what's happening with insects is a big deal. We're
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 2: losing a lot of really weird insects and they haven't
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 2: even been described yet. Marine fish and even tropical fish
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 2: is really interesting to us. Where do all the saltwa
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 2: tropical fish come from?
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: How do you get them?
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 2: They dynamite the reefs in the Philippines. They you know,
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 2: they don't breathe easily, saltwater tropical fish freshwater ones typically do.
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of different groups of animals that we
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 2: don't really think about and talk about that we kind
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 2: of take for at it and we think of them
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 2: as disposable. You know, we'll just put more tropical fish
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 2: in our aquarium in a Vegas hotel.
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 3: And imagining the extinction businesses are going to solve our problems.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 3: I think that's also interesting to us.
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 2: And there's just not a consciousness or smaller vertebrates and invertebrates.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: But I would just say one other thing that I
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: think we do.
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 2: You probably are aware of that. You know, people think
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: you have to be in a city to get the
• 2:14:23
  Speaker 2: you know, the weird shit going on New York City, La,
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever, big cities. And what I've found is
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: oftentimes it's the places that you least expect it. You know,
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 2: some weird you know suburban landscape where you start turning
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 2: over turning over the rocks and you find and see
• 2:14:41
  Speaker 2: that there's weirdness happening everywhere, and that is a theme
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 2: in our stories. It's not gravitating to the big cities
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 2: to find it. It's places where you know the guy
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 2: next door to you, next door where you live has
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 2: a garage full of hot snakes, and the cobra escapes
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 2: one day and it's in your yard or whatever the
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 2: fuck the story is, but often is in places that
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't expect it to.
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 3: Be your friend's carport.
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, guys, thank you again for being here. I
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 1: really appreciate it, and thanks for all the work you
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 1: guys put in. You've really entertained the ship out of
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 1: me over the years and disturbed me as well. So
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 1: it's available, Monsters of God on when when does it
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 1: come out?
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 2: Tomorrow?
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 1: Tomorrow?
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 2: So when this comes out August sixth, August sixth, all right.
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 1: Beautiful, Thank you, thank you, thanks for being here. Thank you. Bye.
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 3: By