Latest / UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps / Why a Bad Hire Can Cost You $500,000 | Jorge Chavez

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Why a Bad Hire Can Cost You $500,000 | Jorge Chavez · UNLEASHED By LoyaltyOps

• Jorge Chavez: one question we ask is well how what was the cost of the of a bad hire? The last hire that you fired, what did that cost you? And then it whatever it could be, it could be anywhere from twenty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars. And then my question is, what budget did that come from? It's like there is no budget. You know, and so i th that's just that's just short sightedness. And but some people have to live through a few of those to say, okay, now I'm ready to to do it right. Mickey Anderson: Welcome back, everyone, to Unleashed. We get another behind-the-scenes look into a real business growing in this day and age and a really interesting industry. With me today is Jorge Chavez from Topaz Sales Consulting. Welcome, Jorge Jorge Chavez: Well thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm also looking forward to our conversation. Mickey Anderson: Fabulous. Well, Jorge we're all super curious about the business you're building, what it looks like. Can you give us a run through of what your business looks like? Jorge Chavez: Sure. The name of our business, Topaz Sales Consulting. We put sales consulting in the title because that's our lane. We're experts in one area and it's building and growing and helping companies build a scalable sales organization. And so so that's what our business does. at a really high level, we transform how people perceive, value, hire, and train salespeople. So it none of most of us, including me, don't like salespeople. They're traditional salespeople. The show up, throw up, convince, sell, tell, put pressure on, trying to get a yes, trying to close a sale. Time waster, convince a holic, we feel all this pressure, we don't like that. So Topaz exists, we're the antithesis of that. Almost everything they would do, tell, pitch, educate, make assumptions. We would say ask questions, listen, be present, don't make assumptions. So we believe we need to exist because buyers would value that more. And and so that's really at the heart of of our purpose. And and what are we building? We're just like any other business out there, many. it starts with, you know, you have a a founder who's figures stuff out and does something well and the market likes it, and they'll think. I've got something really real here. we're building a great business for a greater purpose. It's it's our why. This is bigger than George Chavez. I I get it and I love it. but the reason we're we're bringing people on is because we're putting systems and processes in and people to to grow and scale beyond our time. I hope it goes for another generation or two. And so so we're we're building that out just like any other business would. and just happens to be our core expertise happens to be in the domain of sales, which we love. Mickey Anderson: I I love it for a few reasons. I think you and I have chatted a little bit, a kind of off recording about legacy being a value and leaving something behind and building something that is beyond you as an individual. And I think we think about that business owner who wants to build a legacy, they don't want to pitch and you know, pitch slap and force sales down people. They want to build relationships and build something of value that people enjoy working with and and connect with. And I think you're kind of serving Individuals with exactly what you would want from your business as well. Jorge Chavez: Yeah, that's true. And actually the way you just described it, most owners s would sell the way we talk about building trust with other people. when they're meeting with clients, they're not pushing their products or services. They actually are trying to cure they're curious, like, hey, what problems are you solving? 'Cause see in their mind, they're building systems, processes, tools to solve those problems. So the owner's like, what are you working on? Because then they incorporate those ideas and those problems. into their product offerings. So they lean into that and they're also busy. There's they've got so much going on. So they're there, they're with their clients and or their prospects and they're having those good conversations. But man, they have no time to waste. So because they're busy, they're they're if it's not a good mutual fit, they're looking for reasons it doesn't make sense to invest time. So they'll part ways in a trusting way and move on. so That's exactly how we train people to sell. Well, buyers already think that way. Owners think that way because they're so busy and they're very interested. but man, when you start hiring and and the common prevailing thinking in sales, which I think a lot of books out there are kind of toxic and hurting us, which is like going for the S, overcoming objections. let's get more books on just how to be present and to listen and stop forcing people into decisions they may not be ready for. Just build a relationship, have a conversation. So and that's what we train on. I wish more books were written on that. Owners love it. Now, how to hire people that do things they do naturally and passionately is a gap. Well, how do I find people like me so that they'll sell the same way? And and that's the that's a challenge that they are trying to solve. And if they want to grow and scale, that's that that that's one of the problems that we help them solve. Mickey Anderson: And that that owner is our listener and it's also us, right? Like we're all we're all owner operators, in the conversation Jorge Chavez: It's us, man. Yeah. Yeah. Mickey Anderson: now. And I'd love to kind of step back too and take a look at how you started the business, how long it's been, how you've grown, what that journey has looked like for you in growing Topaz Sales Consulting. Jorge Chavez: Yeah, for sure. I I sp I've been in sales. Actually interesting, just I started out, I grew up in a small little town, blue collar town in Upper Michigan, factories building cars and pistons and all that kind of stuff. And so but I just had this desire to go to college and I really enjoyed computers. So I ended up I went to a technology college up in Upper Michigan on Lake Superior. It snows a lot and and I got a an MIS degree. But inter when I was interviewing and I interviewed with some really good companies, I remember interviewing with Ford Motor Company and they're and it was for programming. And they're like, Why are you interviewing for programming? You should be in sales. I'm like, I just got a degree in in MIS, management information systems. I'm like, come on. And in you know, but anyway, but I got a job with Chevron, the oil and gas company in programming. I was there for four months and I'm looking around and I'm like, this is not my peer group. I want to be in boardroom selling. So I got a master's in marketing and finance, and then I got a job at IBM in sales. So I always had it in my heart. I always loved it. And and so I spent 13 years in in high tech with IBM and Adobe selling to Apple and Microsoft. So I have a lot of corporate sales, a lot of training. and then the last 25 years I've been a business owner and and really executing the things that we do today. for a period of time I just did sales consulting as an independent consultant. for about five years just teaching people to build owners, the listeners to to build these world-class sales teams, put, you know, hire right, sell more, responsibly lead high performing teams. But I just had folks share like I got it and I could articulate it and I could help people, but I got this strong feeling it this is bigger than me. Like how come I got it? And and wha what is our purpose? And eleven years ago we created a business, Topaz, we started the business, and it was to build a great business for a greater purpose. And it's doing the same things, but it's now building systems and processes so that we can have other people do it. And and that's kind of so it's always been sales, a lot of corporate sales, and then as a business owner doing sales, and then for the last 15 years, it's helping other company business owners do sales. But but now we're building it in a scalable way because I'm not going to be here forever. So how can we keep helping people? Well, we gotta equip that next generation. You know, so and there's lots Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Jorge Chavez: of steps that have happened for that to happen. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. And it's it's a an interesting inflection point. You've you've mentioned too there that okay, I'm the doer, I'm the consultant, I'm the core service delivery person. and many businesses are started that way where an individual has a skill set and they they go, right? This is my thing, I'm gonna do it. But you get to a point where and it's it's different for everyone, but usually it's like I only have so much time, I'm only serving so many clients, I'd like to have a bigger impact. And frankly, I don't want to work so much. Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: Right. So how do how do I make this transition? So that's one. But then as you grow, what got you here won't get you there. And so there's this shift that you have to make as you bring people on and being able to create those systems and that scalability in your business. So it's not you to the next people, it's you to the systems to the next people as well. and you have an interesting transition Jorge Chavez: Yeah, yeah. Mickey Anderson: you're going through right now as well in terms of kind of where you're going and your shift within the business and how that's laying out. I I'd love for the listeners to hear a little bit about that. Jorge Chavez: Yeah, I I wanna highlight, so as you're describing that, so an owner th th there's certain passions they have and there's certain talents they have. there's a book called The E Myth, the entrepreneurial myth, right? So y you you know, the the cake maker builds great cakes and then decides I'm gonna make a cake business and realizes most of their time is spent not building cakes. Well, somebody has to help you with skills and gifts to build those systems and processes in. Now, Similarly, right, so my wife is a co-founder, so I I'm very much passionate about the the teaching people how to sell more and responsibly lead and hire better. And I'm I love people. I could I could I start at early in the morning, I could be talking with people for eight hours straight, and I leave my day energized. More more energy than I started. I love it all. Right. My wife it the day she doesn't have to interact with people is a good day. But she it documents systems processes. She just figures this stuff out, takes everything in my head and puts it in in the process and using tools and all so so that's that had to be the start. Somebody has to document all that and while the owner is doing whatever they do. It might have to be the owner, but sometimes the owner doesn't have those skills. So someone has to do it. To your point now, we've been doing that for eleven years. I think we've gotten as far as we can without other people helping us. And we have two sons in the business that are align aligned with our purpose and and why we do what we do so our culture and purpose will carry forward. And they're also skilled at putting these processes in place and and executing so we can hire and bring other, you know, the next generation of people to do it. And and so it's sort of evolving. but that that wing person, that someone else to help the owner, there's only so many hours in the day and there's only so many gifts and talents that we have, and and just acknowledging s it might be someone else. I I wish I could say, you know, I I don't one of my goals is to work less. I've been putting in some long weeks for for a lot of years, but To do the transition, I don't know if you can work less doing the transition. You might even do a little bit more until you can work less. And we're kind Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Jorge Chavez: of in that mode right now. We're trying to, what can I take off my plate? What should I be doing so we can grow and scale? It's a it's an Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Jorge Chavez: ongoing conversation. I can't say we've perfected it, but we're certainly working on it. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. And I mean, it's a transition, right? It's not a flip a switch and you're out. there's Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: there's phases and depending on the size and scale of your business, it's gonna adapt, but but it's not an overnight thing where you're just like, all right, I'm stepping out. Good luck. Like it there there's a lot of hand holding and training and supporting and guiding along the way on both both sides. The one thing I think is really interesting is talking to another couplepreneur. so I co founded my company with my husband. Yeah, I know a friend of mine mentioned couplepreneur and I like, I'm stealing that. Thank you. Jorge Chavez: I love it. I'm gonna steal it too. A couple per near, that's what we're doing. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, exactly. I was like, you named it perfectly. but my husband and I, we co founded together and I am like you. I am the extrovert. I will talk to people all day and love it and feel energized by it. It's my favorite thing. Like get me in a group of people and we're we're happy. My husband, on the other hand, he's an extrovert, but he he needs his solitude and his time and his quiet and to be aside. Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: And so he tackles a lot of the behind the scenes stuff and doesn't necessarily get in the day to day. And I think there's this kind of beautiful overlap when you have Jorge Chavez: Mm-hmm. Mickey Anderson: Two people, similar values, similar mission aligned, but you can complement each other and fill in the gaps for each other as you're building. it does add some layers of complexity with your relationship, but I I think when you have the Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: right partner and the right business, it can it can just be kind of a beautiful thing, an extension of your life, just like a kid would. Jorge Chavez: You know, it's everything you said is so true. it does bring complexities and it's not for everyone. I so I've been in in business owner peer advisory boards for probably like twenty years. Every month I'm sitting with owners and they're all having these conversations, but it's a circle of trust. They're kind of almost like a board of directors weighing in on one another's business. the mm some work with their spouse. They're a couple premiers. Many don't and many don't for a reason. now the ones that do, we talk through the issues, like the complexities, like when do you turn it off? Like when you're you're calling it at night and you're in bed ready to go to sleep and suddenly you got this employee issue and you're like really fifteen hours into it now we're still talking like when do you turn it off? Like so you kinda gotta work through what you talk about, when you talk about it, and not let it affect your marriage. It it you just have to work through it and it can take a while and not everybody can get through it. but here's the benefit. th this is really powerful and it and it has to be and maybe it's working with family too. You gotta have people you can thoroughly trust, like to the nines, right? And so and who else can you trust than a spouse to do the work to to be there? That's super critical. So so the coup couplepreneurs, it's harder, but the reward is cause you c I I'm I'm heard I've been in a lot of these stories, business partners that just don't work it out. They're just unequally yoked, they just have different purposes. you you just always have that. But when you're married, you you have mutual gain, right? Now our gain, our our goal now is Like we could we could tap out sell and say, Okay, we're good, let's just go to the sunset. But we're still putting in a pretty full amount of time 'cause we want to create something for our kids to have a legacy to to continue if they believe in the mission and the purpose and they feel called and want to do this to set them up for success. That's that's what we're but only with a spouse could you want your cause we both have the same kids, you know, married thirty two years. So We both want to see our kids set up for success. That feels great. That's a motivator. And I don't know, being a couplepreneur, there's a benefit. so the hard work, yes, but there's some real benefits on trust, mutual gains, setting kids up for success. And and you just gotta learn how to manage the conversations and the complexities and even coach each other. Hey, we've got to let that go, man. Don't take it so personal. Yeah, I Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Jorge Chavez: mean, we're we're in constant conversations about How to manage and keep in perspective the many things going on. Yeah. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, it's funny. And I I find couples who've gone through a lot of transitions already together, there's you've already done this before because business changes so quickly and so frequently. And sometimes it's the shift in the business that causes partners to split because we don't have the same vision anymore. But when you're a couple and you've gone through life transitions together, whether it's kids, moves, job changes, those sorts of things, you can adapt together. Jorge Chavez: Mm-hmm. Mickey Anderson: pretty seamlessly because you've practiced it, but when you haven't done that, and they a lot of people will say if you picking a business partner is very similar to marrying someone. It's it's a partnership Jorge Chavez: Very much. Mickey Anderson: and there's commitment and you go through hard times and you have to really trust each other, as you said. So I agree. I think it's a a real asset when you can do it right and you have the right partner in the right business. And it is not for everyone, that is for sure. Jorge Chavez: Yeah. And so there's a whole good God story behind picking a partner. So I don't know if you if you want to ever go in there, but that it's an interesting cause Mickey Anderson: Mm. Jorge Chavez: you think about it, it's like, how do you pick a partner? You know what I'm saying? It's like 'cause it i you know, whether it it's a business partner or a a lifelong partner, anyway. So but th but it really does matter, that that you Mickey Anderson: Mm. Yeah. Jorge Chavez: have someone that wants to also Do the work. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, it's it's so true. and you know, you mentioned your sons coming into the business too and and that. And I know that you're actively working to kind of get out of the day to day and slowly move your way into being quote unquote rainmaker, and allowing Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: kind of the the company to grow in that sense too. How's that transition been for you? What are you focused on in order to make that happen right now? Jorge Chavez: Yeah, the so we have three sons, two of are now in the business. our our youngest, he's like my mini me, like since age two. but he started a business when he was nine. you know, he he would take people's trash down to the s bottom of the street on Tuesday night, bringing it up on Wednesday morning, and and he had to go sell his services nine years old. I we I helped him I coached him up, right, on how to go do that. And so we lived in this golf cart. you know, golf course, golf cart community. So we'd be in our golf cart and he'd have his little, you know, clipboard with his services and how much he's gonna charge and he'd go knock on doors, nine years old, knock on doors. I'm just sitting down at the street and and I could watch the conversation and look down and some didn't a couple of them went well, many didn't go well and and so but coaching him up on how to take a no and how to co-call. Well he's just this serial entrepreneur who just gets business and gets sales. So at age nine and seventeen he started another he did that business by the way for till he was seventeen. So for for like eight years he made more money than his brothers who are like seven years older. So at any rate, so he started and when he turned graduated from high school, we tried to talk him out of joining us. Like he used to do engagements at fifteen. He used to cold call and spot check learning. But we tried to talk him out of joining us, thinking, go get some experience. You don't need to work with us. You've got lots of other things to do. And he kept like, no, no, I want to work here. And it's like, no, go to college, do this. He's like, I'm going to topaz you. People pay you money to learn your stuff. I want to just learn it and not have to pay you and just pay me to learn your stuff. And then I want to help you grow. And he kept coming back and coming back. And he's like our Swiss Army knife. Like he just the job description we started with that looks nothing like what he does. We founded his gifts, his talents, he brought value, and it's five years later, and he's he's helping us hire. He's just mass he's so good. So he he's that's the youngest. the oldest was a client for s for about six years with different companies. He went through all of our training as a client. He actually was a user of of our services, and then just through life, an opportunity came where some of our friends he was searching for something different. And some of our friends said, Well, why don't you work with your dad and your mom? I mean I mean, they they they totally could benefit from your skill set. So last December he joined us and he's really a critical piece. So he's he's got great expertise from our using our products and services. He loves our our mission and he has a unique set of selling and finance background and systems and processes background where he's really the guy to he's you know, he's got the right kind of services to help us grow and scale. And and I've been looking for that person for a while, but it just he wasn't available. God just wanted him to be there and we kind of had to hang tight, do the work. But but now we're in a really good spot having our two sons who love what we do and and we're just taking it one day at a time, working together. We're having fun. Mickey Anderson: Yep. Yeah. that's beautiful. I love that. I think it's funny how w life happens, right? It it hits you and it comes in different ways and sometimes you're like why why is it taking so long to find this person or to do this thing and then all of a sudden it happens, you're like, I had to learn these lessons or this had to happen Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: and it's it just kinda lays itself before you in in pretty interesting ways. That's for sure. Jorge Chavez: True. I'm gonna plant the seed. If our our middle son's listening to this, I'll plant the seed. We're trying to figure out how to get him in too. So we haven't found that perfect timing and roll. So but anyway, would love to have all of them because they're all amazing and I think they could all bring value. it's all it's it's at the right time. There you are. Mickey Anderson: Yep. Yeah. It all works itself out somehow. For sure. For sure. so now as you're kind of making this transition, looking to the future, building for impact, bringing your sons up into the business, what are you most focused on knowing that there's so much change going on in the industry? There's AI and technology, people are saying AI is gonna take over sales. Like, where are you placing your bets in your own business over the next kind of 10 years or so? Jorge Chavez: well you have to embrace AI to the best of your ability. so so we're also we're we're heavily investing, exploring, and utilizing tools. one thing that has become very plain to me, at least for the next one to maybe three years, because I don't think any of us can look past that with what AI is going to do to all of our lives. So but looking forward A lot of people are using AI to prepare for conversations. Who am I meeting with? You can you can use any of those tools to come up with who am I meeting with, who's their competition, what's their background, what's their executive team, what are their challenges, blah, blah, blah. What questions should I ask? We encourage people, we have tools to help people get that background to pre-call plan. But now you have to be present. You have to build a relationship. You have to build a have a conversation. And you need to intelligently know how to bring those questions up at the right time. And more importantly, how to develop questions on the fly based on what people are saying. And that today is not y I mean you can't and and maybe this'll change down the road, I know, you know but you're not you can't say, Hey Chat GPT, what should I say to this question? And you know, it doesn't know what the person, their eyes and their body language and their tonality and and and what happened before, like so you gotta be present. So today our business is built around helping people be present. We use AI to prepare, but then it's listening, asking questions, not making assumptions, staying detached from the outcome, seeking the truth. accepting it might not be a good mutual fit. That stuff we help help people get the right mindset and belief system and understanding of why they're meeting and how to conduct the conversation and then to be present real time to come up with questions. so we're leveraging AI to the maximum that we can today. We're but we're our business hasn't changed and and we're working with people on what lives between the ears, right? teaching them how to have those conversations. looking forward, man, I don't know. I I think it's quite interesting. What when AI replaces all conversations and sales, I would think this would happen. What when you have a therapist that's an AI agent, sales is in trouble. Because in a lot Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Jorge Chavez: of ways, salespeople are therapists. You know, we we want to hear the problems, the issues, the pains, what you're doing about it. It's like we should go to our customers and just say, pull up the couch and Lay down, let's have a conversation. That that's really what salespeople do if they're good. if a if an AI agent can do that and be and really help people, they could probably sell and maybe that day will come and may we'll adapt some other method then. I don't know. We'll have to figure that out. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. I mean i and it's it's interesting 'cause you'll hear people saying that that's the path and then there's people who are like, No, like we're a human world, human will always win and I think it's gonna be some gray area in between. But w the one thing yeah, Jorge Chavez: Can I comment on that? Mickey Anderson: of course. Jorge Chavez: I think there's two examples that kind of really shatter that where we thought that, but it's no longer the case. The first one was ATMs. When were we ever gonna not get money from a banker? Face to face, ATMs and and and you know, B of A, I think they were the last ones to adopt. Others tried it first and found people liked the convenience of money. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Jorge Chavez: And and so and they didn't need to talk to somebody to withdraw money or deposit money. So so I think that shattered that need for a person. The second was purchasing insurance. Now I was I own an all-state insurance agency and the agents they had like 17,000 agents. And there was a thought that, you know, I mean everybody needed their agent to make an informed decision. Well then eSurance options came up and every company started developing those. Now I I actually still shiver a bit about people trying to purchase insurance because even a layperson, how do you know what each of those coverages are and how much you need? I think the conversation's critical, but let's say you already know people buy products, health insurance, life insurance, long term care insurance, disability insurance, you know, based on what they need, they buy it without talking to anyone. And and we thought that was a very protected relationship. So I I I I think we're a r human relationship world, but but how it relates to sales, I I don't know at what point you know, you know, a lot of e-commerce happens. Look at Amazon. You know, so I guess it depends on the product or service. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Yeah, I find it interesting. Well, and I I think there's kind of a hybrid too, because if you think of the ATM example, there's still bankers and banks for specific jobs and roles, right? So it's shifted. And I think of even like the self-checkouts, Jorge Chavez: That's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah. Mickey Anderson: right? Those were a massive failure. And you have to have both. You can't necessarily do all. Yes, Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: you can scale down and you'll have specialized services, specialized people who do things, but I don't think it's going to be this like swap, this full black and white swap. Jorge Chavez: Mickey, you make a great point. I I think you're spot on. It it'll ne it maybe it won't go away. It may just adapt to certain industries where it's the most valuable. We'll continue to have salespeople and and where it's less valuable or transactional, they'll have other ways. I would agree. Mickey Anderson: Yep. Yeah. I was I think of this example from IKEA recently that I read. And so don't kill me if I get this wrong because I d just recently read it. So I'm going off memory here. But so IKEA's Jorge Chavez: Okay. Mickey Anderson: customer service division, they were bringing in AI basically to replace that. And it was like 18,000 employees to come in and take over that role because they had AI and it could do it. But instead of letting go of those eighteen thousand employees, they shifted them into a new role, trained them in interior design, AI enabled, and built up another billion dollar Armed their business instead. And Jorge Chavez: Yeah, no. Mickey Anderson: so I I think there's these opportunities. I think the businesses Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: that are gonna miss out are the ones who do the black and white switch. We're gonna lay off all these people and put in AI. The businesses that think Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: differently, that find hybrids and ways to leverage AI in the lower, more transactional areas and keep specialized, Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: good people where they need to. I I think that's at least what I I'd say my opinion is, where we're gonna see Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: the the best bets made over the next decade. Jorge Chavez: Yeah y I fully agree. I I I think so. It you know, finding high performers, people you can trust, high pot high potential high performers, that you never want to lose them. So repurposing them if they are a great culture fit and you have trust, it makes a lot of sense. And and I think too to your point, like staying open minded, really that that book good to great, you know, what got us here isn't going to get us to where we want to go. Keep that open mind. And and honestly, it's probably continuously assessing it's like your SWOT analysis, where are the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats and and figure, you know, knowing it it's continuously changing. and so you want to keep an open mind and and you want to keep your greatest people because they're so hard to find. And and then keep it see it as opportunity. yeah, I I would couldn't agree more and how fun. I I think if if you're an an owner, this is the fun part of it, is creating Mickey Anderson: Exactly. Jorge Chavez: and figuring this out and then doing things no one else has done before. It's pretty fun. Mickey Anderson: Well, and to that point, I I would say right now we're seeing a bit of a fixation or a focus on these fast growth tech companies who are scaling up really rapidly. They're very transactional. It's go, go, go. Not every business is like that. And I think it's it's kind of a mistake to compare ourselves to that, thinking, well, I need to be more agile. I need to throw in AI, I need to be faster. When like a business like yours or like mine, for example, they are it's okay to have a little bit slower, more sustainable growth, to pull things out, to build intentionally. We're not all gonna fit in the same box and grow the same way. So it's about creating leverage in a way that makes sense for you and your business. Jorge Chavez: Yeah, yeah, I I would agree with that. And actually that's where it's gets super personal on purpose. I I I believe this. If you're not growing, you're dying. now if you let's talk about soccer. And I didn't watch the game, but it was well it Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Jorge Chavez: was well it was Argentina just played. Argentina just played. Who do they play in the semis? Mickey Anderson: Yeah. England. England. Jorge Chavez: England. Okay. England got a lead. And they they were up by one and they tried to sit on their lead. And and I'm not picking sides, this is just a strategy. It was a defensive position. I think we s have to stay in the offensive all the time. And so that's Mickey Anderson: Hundred percent. Jorge Chavez: the mindset. If you're not growing, you're dying. You you can't stay still or you're gonna lose ground. It's like putting money in the ground and then inflation's gonna kill you. So you have to grow, but don't let the world dictate growth. You that's where it gets personal. Me Personally, meet with your leadership team, what's right for you, what's right for your industry, not just to pick numbers to pick numbers to say you did, but something meaningful goals that you're willing to get behind and sacrifice to get there. and I agree with you. So it's so personal. But man, Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Jorge Chavez: it you gotta really then not let the world dictate like i people have that whole mindset of FOMO. The the world can't dictate if you don't grow 40% and you're not in the ink five thousand, you're terrible and you're a loser and you're not successful. That's just a lie. That and you gotta really shut yourself off to that and say, as long as you're profitable, you're running an ethical business with people you trust, and you know, and and you're earning enough to achieve your goals, kudos, man. You're doing awesome. Yeah. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. it's it's wild. I think one of the things that we all briefly segue into one of the things that we talk about a lot with business owners the outset is that clarity. And you mentioned purpose. And and one of the things we do with a lot of business owners who are are, you know, trying to figure it out as they go is we start with four simple questions. Who you are, what you do, why you do it, and where you're going. And if you're really clear on those four, everything else just seems to fit into place. Really naturally. And those things will adapt over time, right? Like who we are when we first start a business to where we see it going ten years in, not gonna be the same. But having that clear and staying aligned to it and refocusing on it, I think is is a huge thing that many business owners could could benefit from. Now Jorge Chavez: I I think those are critical. And the why you do it, there's that s book, Simon Cynics Start with why. And Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, start with Y. Jorge Chavez: w what we encourage people to do is with passion, share their why. I believe the why sets you apart from every other individual who does the same thing. People don't buy why you what you do, but why you do it. And so when we can share our why, that means you know your why though. I think that's a very important question. And and and why can really change how you who you hire, how you train them and what they do every day. so I I think that's such an important question and and if you can figure that out, man, you're ahead of the game there. Mickey Anderson: Totally agree. Totally agree. Now I want to come back to high performers because you've mentioned a few times about finding those high performers, you know, upskilling your sons and getting them up and bringing in the right people. And I'm curious for you, what's your perspective on finding the right people and developing the right people? Because Jorge Chavez: Mm-hmm. Mickey Anderson: one of the things I think that I'm seeing a lot is people are expecting to just pluck unicorns. And not have to really develop them or invest in them and just like you should be good at this job. I'm just gonna pick the best. And that i regardless of if they're best or not, there's still development that needs to happen. So what's your perspective on finding the right people and developing the right people so that you can continue to grow in a way aligned with your why and purpose? Jorge Chavez: Yeah, for sure. The d so many people want that unicorn. And Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Jorge Chavez: I I gotta tell you, a lot of folks will call us and just say, I found the perfect one, you know, and it's they're not. But so he so here's what's super critical. It all starts with a job description. We have to know what our unicorn looks like or what a high performer looks like. We have to document what their their role or roles are, what their responsibilities are, what we have for goals and expectations. and then there has to be a screening process. How how do they make sure the people they're talking to have those things? And it can't just be a skills match. There has to be a culture fit match. Because they may have all the skills in the world but be toxic to your culture. It's a no. So it has to be a culture match and a skills match. And to your point, Everyone needs development. No one's gonna be perfect. So the screening process has to get to the truth of their abilities. What are you getting? So the as much clarity about their real skill set has to be learned in the hiring process. And then whatever their gaps are, your onboarding process has to be designed to close those gaps. And so Mickey Anderson: Yes. Jorge Chavez: so those that's that's the way to do it. And and I I we we have a program called MetaHire where we train companies on how to do that for salespeople, but it's really bigger than just sales. It's for high performers. And a lot of our clients use it for sales, but then they use it for other parts of their business, follow the same process, because we really seek high performers. And and it's the true skill set and a true culture fit. And then and then it's the onboarding is the gap closing. Do you have a training program? Because they're all gonna have And if if you think you're gonna be able to hire and then let go, that's a that's not great leadership. I mean, that doesn't happen very often. In fact, it usually backfires. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Well, and you mentioned this at the start, right? When you're making that transition, bringing someone in to take on roles and responsibilities, is sometimes your workload increases for a bit, right? There's additional things, supporting, documenting, sharing, guiding, developing this person. Eventually that person grows into the role. And that's I Jorge Chavez: Yes. Mickey Anderson: think a transition a lot of people underestimate and and undervalue or try to skip and kind of get ahead, but it ends up biting them in the end. Jorge Chavez: It it does and it's costly. i in advance, it's like that that ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. a lot of folks don't invest on the the pre hire work. They say, I don't have a budget, you know, but they'll use a recruiter or something, there's a budget there. But I don't have a budget to invest, I don't have time to train my people on how to screen for those. You know, and so then one question we ask is well how what was the cost of the of a bad hire? The last hire that you fired, what did that cost you? And then it whatever it could be, it could be anywhere from twenty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars. And then my question is, what budget did that come from? It's like there is no budget. You know, and so i th that's just that's just short sightedness. And but some people have to live through a few of those to say, okay, now I'm ready to to do it right. But that's really just, hey, you want to save yourself time. Figure it out and do it to the best of your ability on the front end. It'll save you a lot of time and heartache on the back end. And that's wise. You know, that that would be a good thing. and if they're not willing to invest the time to do it right on the front end, you're doing a disservice to your employees and you're gonna have a lot of heartache. And and I've lived through the heartache like many have, and it's hard. It is heartache. Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. It is. It's one of those battle scars that you really like it still hurts over time when you look back at it. You're like, ooh, I still feel that a little bit. but it it it is important to remember like this is we don't do this because it's easy, right? We do it for our purpose. And there's, you know, sometimes you gotta grind, sometimes you gotta take on extra work, sometimes you gotta help develop somebody who needs more. And that's okay, right? It's all seasons. Exactly. Jorge Chavez: True. If it was easy, anyone could do it. Right. And and so I kind of well, right. Top performers love the s the hard stuff that no one else can do. I think that's probably why I picked sales. I think part of it I was just I I needed to pick sales, but I just feel I was geared for that, which you know, I don't think you have to be. But but I think it's just s it's like golf. It's harder Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Jorge Chavez: than golf. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. Jorge Chavez: Because you're you're in the people business and people are unpredictable. Well, golf, you don't know what you got. You're hitting over the water, you got all these distractions, it's windy, who knows what you had for breakfast, your bri you know, your self talk. It's hard to be good and consistent in golf. I think sales is right up there. It cause you're in the people business and you got to work through others and then you're selling to customers and y you know, and and building those relationships and they're all random. You don't know what their experiences are. So you continuously are adapting. And and so there you that's why it's so important to have a process so you can kinda know how to navigate the adaptation required. But I think because it's challenging, it's and not everybody can do it, I think that drove me to the sales. yeah. Mickey Anderson: Yeah. And you can't get around doing the reps. No one's gonna do your push ups for you, right? And I think that's part of sales Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: as well. It's like the more you do it, the more you learn. And a lot of people think I'm just Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: gonna get an a a person who's good at sales and they're gonna rock it. And it's like, well, you gotta get the reps in. Like that's that's the name of the game. Jorge Chavez: Mickey, you're you're spot on. Back just if I could plant this on we talk about top performers. They are continuous learners and and they're not afraid to do the work. They recognize you got to do the work. There's no there's no substitute for experience, and they're continuously learning and improving. Those are the makeups of of top performers. We look for people that want that. Mickey Anderson: And to add on to that, the thing that we see all the time is top performers have different expectations of their leader and their company than lower tier performers. They are expecting that my leader is going to live up to those standards too, that they're going to be constantly learning and adapting and setting me up for success and driving the company forward. They're not going to sit back and watch complacency and be okay with it. And so it's you Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: get what you give as well. If you expect top performers to come Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: to you, you have to behave and act like one as well. Jorge Chavez: I I couldn't agree more. I think the the fastest way, you know, like when we talk with with clients, one of the questions we ask is, why would a top performer want to work for your company? And why would a top performer ever leave? And one of the number one reasons top performers leave is because there's a culture of mediocrity. They and and so there's excuse making and top performers don't like excuses. They put in the time and they want to work with other top performers. And and that's it. And so it and it all starts at the leadership level. you know, so actually as our leaders and our owners are listening to this, if you find you have a culture of excuse making and mediocrity, look in the mirror. It starts at the top. B here's the good part of it. I it's kind of a hard look, but but it's usually the owner. They're the main reason. but then that It's within them to start changing the culture. They can start deciding to not make excuses. Now it's easier to not take excuses. And and they need to set the bar and model what that looks like so others can follow. So it starts with us. We can fix it. We can improve it. That that brings hope, I believe. Mickey Anderson: Totally. Totally. I think you have more power than you think you do as a leader. And Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: I always say like the two, I would say like cracks in a foundation that can take down a business, take down a top performer are assumptions and excuses. Those two things. If you rely on those, you are in trouble. But it all comes down to leadership modeling. As you said, if if you can understand the behaviors you don't want and the behaviors you do want, model the ones you want consistently, that's what you're gonna get more of. Jorge Chavez: Well said. Excuse making and making assumptions. Yeah, the i so i if you want to start your day and and be on the path to b better success, eliminate those two things. First working inwardly, I I I think that's a great starting place. And we all do it, by the way. Well, not not necessarily the excuse making, but we sure do make a lot of assumptions. Mickey Anderson: yeah. yeah. It's it's tough in this day and age. and I think a lot of times we make the excuse of like the unknown, right? Well, I have to assume because I don't there's no way for me to know. And there's a difference between making an assumption and having a hypothesis and testing it. Right. So Jorge Chavez: Yes. True. Yeah. Mickey Anderson: it it's it's th those little nuances that can make a big difference. Jorge Chavez: Yeah. Mickey Anderson: now I want to think about, the future. And what you see coming down the pipeline. We talked briefly about the challenges with AI and the potential ways sales can go in terms of your business and and where you're focused in the future and how you're building for legacy and for your family. where do you see the future of consulting or the future of sales going and how are you building for that? Jorge Chavez: Yeah, for sure. The I don't think people can be in business if they're not solving customer problems. It it's not a I'll build it and they'll come. So our focus 100% is is helping our clients thrive. It just be successful beyond their limits or imagination. And and so we want to be part of that. And so we're in the problem solving business in the domain of sales. So we never stop validating well build understanding where their problems are, where their challenges as things evolve. and we want to be on the side of helping them solve those problems. So so everything we've built has been driven by client problems and issues where they perceive and need have value that they're willing to pay money for. So so that's the model. Any consulting business, you gotta be solving client problems or you're never going to exist. And and never stop looking at that. for us, one thing that was super it took a while to come around to this, but since I built all the stuff that we have, you almost think like, well, i you know, you're just trying to replicate George. And it's like, no, no, we're the blue man group. I want to be the blue man group. so we're not replicating me and what I do, we're replicating the client experience. So there's things I do. Everyone will do them in their own unique style. But if they replicate those ex those things, then they can get the client experience where they're thriving. They love what you do. They want more of what you know, more time with you and more of your services, and they'll refer you. That's how we built our business. And so we're looking for people that can replicate the client experience and and Topaz, the the last thing I'll say about what what where are we at? I've concluded Topaz is a system. Mickey Anderson: Mm-hmm. Jorge Chavez: It's it's a system of tools, processes, and people. The people we hire are based on our culture. And and so everything in Topaz, we're a system that pr that that helps our clients thrive and our people repeat that client experience. Whether I'm doing it or another consultant on our team. our clients have a a a a very similar experience and they're successful. So those are some high level principles of things that we focus on that we believe if we continue doing, we'll be around for 10 more years. Now exactly what we do may change, but why we do it, I I don't think that should change. Mickey Anderson: Yeah, I love that. It comes down it to me, it kind of fills two buckets that that we're building as well. Like I think I we're really aligned in this is the one is consistent excellence in client delivery, right? Whatever Jorge Chavez: Okay. Mickey Anderson: that looks like, it's how do we consistently deliver excellence to them. And then adaptability as well. As much as we want to be consistent and deliver that experience, we have to be adaptable on the how and what it looks like because problems are gonna change, people you know, things things are moving quickly. So how do we balance those two? And it's this kind of interesting inflection. back and forth between delivering that excellence and being adaptable to what's coming down the pipeline. Jorge Chavez: Yeah, I th those sound wonderful and and and good. Yeah. I yeah, that that sounds great. So so that's kind of where we're headed and we we're really we c we hold the future with an open hand. I we don't we don't have a it must be it's you know, it's it's really those those principles and and sticking to our our why and greater purpose and and we'll do this as long as it makes sense, as long as we bring value to the market and if anything shifts and It no longer makes sense, probably do something else. It you know. But Mickey Anderson: That's the way goes. Awesome. George, this has been so fantastic. So for the listeners, if there's one takeaway, one nugget, one piece of advice you'd like to leave them with, what would that be? Jorge Chavez: Yeah, that's a great question. so if we're if we have owners and and they want to grow and build the and scale their business, I I I guess let's let's end with this. Why are you doing it? Why are you doing it? Like I would ask you to spend time on on your why and your purpose. Because if you can get that figured out, it'll never feel like a grind. You'll never work a day in your life. You know? And and I would add to help with that why, don't be afraid of the why. They might not be in the right business or the right role. It's okay. That that's the let it be part of the figuring it out process. like don't put boundaries around trying to explore the why. if you don't have one, maybe there isn't one. But if you can get clarity around that, you can build your culture around that, you can hire people, hire people that share your why. And and that's how you can get it to go past you. So so that would be my recommendation or takeaway. Mickey Anderson: That is fantastic, timeless advice. And I think we all need that reminder pretty consistently. So thank you for that. George, for anyone Jorge Chavez: Sure. Mickey Anderson: who wants to connect and learn more about you and Topaz Sills Consulting, where can they find you? Jorge Chavez: Yeah, I would recommend our we have a really fantastic website. It's TopazSales Consulting.com. And it there's a specific tool that we get a lot of kudos on. It's an ebook, if you will. It's our ultimate guide to prospecting. It's like 54 pages. It's a free download, and it's got really relevant, timely things on how to hunt and prospect and fill the top of the funnel through marketing. And then of course when you get those appointments, I mean salespeople can do it, marketing can do it. but but certainly once you create engagement, then if they need help with sales, they can certainly reach out to to help them there. But that ultimate guide to prospecting, I encourage people download it and and there will be a lot of value in there. Mickey Anderson: Awesome. I will put the link to both your website and the download in the description. This has been such Jorge Chavez: Awesome. Mickey Anderson: a fantastic conversation, George. I loved you it was just so much fun. Thank you so much for spending time with us and and giving us a behind the scenes of of what you're building and who you're serving. Jorge Chavez: Well, very good. I do hope people got value from our time. And and I really appreciate your time. Thanks for having me. Mickey Anderson: Thank you so much.