Latest / Wellness in Today's World / Ep. 10: Beyond the Scoreboard: The Human Side of Football’s Biggest Games

Transcript

Ep. 10: Beyond the Scoreboard: The Human Side of Football’s Biggest Games · Wellness in Today's World

• 0:05
  Welcome to Wellness in Today's World, a space where we discuss the latest insights in psychology, wellness, and everything in between.
• 0:13
  Hello, I'm Debra Kawahara.
• 0:15
  Thank you for joining me today.
• 0:17
  Today, we will go beyond the scoreboard to explore the story, science, and soul of sports.
• 0:25
  We are going to take a deep dive into the mental game behind one of college football's most intense and emotional times of the year:
• 0:33
  bowl season.
• 0:34
  Joining me are two incredible guests.
• 0:37
  First, Dr.
• 0:38
  Ron Stolberg, a renowned sports psychologist who has worked with elite athletes across the country and a professor at the California School of Professional Psychology at Alliant
• 0:50
  International University.
• 0:52
  And Aaron Taylor, former All-American turned football analyst.
• 0:58
  Together we'll unpack the psychological highs and lows of bowl season, from the pressures of legacy games to the rituals that keep players grounded.
• 1:10
  So whether you're a diehard fan, a student of the game, or just curious about what drives performance under pressure, this episode is for you.
• 1:19
  Let's get into it.
• 1:21
  Welcome Ron and Aaron!
• 1:23
  Thank you for being here today.
• 1:24
  Our pleasure.
• 1:25
  Yeah, Debra, thank you.
• 1:27
  You're welcome.
• 1:28
  So let's start with, before we start with the psychology of the game and athletes, let's start with kind of talking about the two of you and your journey.
• 1:39
  Ron, for you, I know you were like a high school athlete, sports in college.
• 1:46
  So your journey from that to a sports psychologist and Aaron, you going from a football player
• 1:53
  to now football analyst.
• 1:54
  So I'm gonna hand it over to you and let the two of you take us on your journey.
• 1:59
  Thanks, Debra.
• 2:01
  So as you alluded to, I grew up playing sports, everything.
• 2:05
  You name the sport, I played it, sometimes multiple sports in the same season in high school.
• 2:10
  It's really where I found my identity as a child.
• 2:14
  I went to college to play sports.
• 2:17
  I was a collegiate tennis player.
• 2:19
  I was pretty good, but
• 2:21
  probably not good enough to support a family and buy a house in San Diego good.
• 2:26
  And so like a good college athlete, I took a lot of different courses, general education courses.
• 2:32
  I imagine I was probably a business major or something like that, environmental science.
• 2:37
  I went back around, back and forth a few times.
• 2:40
  And I took a introduction to psychology class.
• 2:43
  At a couple different points in that class, I was just
• 2:47
  blown away at maybe watching a video of a psychologist doing work with someone.
• 2:54
  And at one point, I actually stayed after class and I asked the professor, I said, "What do I need to do to get to do that kind of work that we just saw in class tonight?" And she
• 3:07
  said,
• 3:08
  "My husband is picking me up tonight and he would love to talk to you about it.
• 3:12
  He's also a psychologist, but he loves to mentor people and he'd love to talk to you." And I said, "Great!" And he explained the difference to me about all the different degrees,
• 3:22
  the MD, the PhD, the PsyD.
• 3:25
  Master's-level degrees and all the different ways that I could be an impactful therapist.
• 3:30
  And for me, he helped guide me to a PhD program, to advanced courses at my university—statistics classes, research methods classes, doing a capstone project and
• 3:44
  doing research.
• 3:45
  And what was interesting is that was the beginning of my retirement from competitive sport.
• 3:51
  Because these courses that I needed to take that now I was really interested in
• 3:56
  actually overlapped with practice.
• 3:59
  And so I found myself having to kind of deal with the coach and my expectations as an athlete.
• 4:06
  And I found myself being drawn to the academic side away from the sports side.
• 4:11
  I was at that point where I was probably thinking about life after tennis.
• 4:15
  I threw myself into academics just like I did athletics.
• 4:19
  And I wanted to be the best.
• 4:21
  I wanted to be the last person in the library at night when I studied.
• 4:24
  I wanted to be the one who broke the curve on the tests.
• 4:27
  I wanted to get the highest scores on the GREs.
• 4:31
  And I think I still am that way.
• 4:32
  When I pull into a parking space, I get out and I look and I'm like, that's a darn good way I parked there.
• 4:38
  That's better than anyone else in the parking lot.
• 4:40
  Hahaha.
• 4:42
  And so that competitive nature has always been with me.
• 4:45
  And when I didn't have sport anymore, I channeled it into this.
• 4:50
  And so it's been really nice for me to get to have part of what I do as a clinical psychologist and a professor is to get back, one foot back into the, you know, on the
• 5:01
  field, as they say, or on the court and hang out with these folks that I identify with.
• 5:08
  And I feel like I have some
• 5:10
  you know, shared experience with.
• 5:11
  And so that's sort of my path to psychology.
• 5:15
  Then I went to graduate school and got my degree and opened a practice and was probably teaching already.
• 5:23
  And then there was a tragedy at a sporting event and a really famous athlete passed away on his way home from a competition.
• 5:32
  The competition was still ongoing.
• 5:34
  And the
• 5:36
  commissioner of that league called uh myself and Aaron, you know, our mutual friend Christian; called Christian...
• 5:45
  and some of the athletes that were competing were friends of ours, and said, "We know a psychologist.
• 5:51
  Maybe that person can help us figure out what to do with this contest after these this gentleman just passed away." And so we got together with the commissioner and some of the
• 5:59
  athletes and came up with a plan that suited everybody and
• 6:02
  celebrated the individual, but let the athletes still focus on their sport and have the opportunity to earn income and points and all these things that they needed that were
• 6:10
  important to them, but also feel like they did justice to this crisis.
• 6:15
  And that was my foot in the door.
• 6:16
  And I started doing crisis work for a number of the leagues.
• 6:20
  I started to get calls when things happened.
• 6:23
  And that was really my segue into sports psychology.
• 6:26
  And then
• 6:27
  once you're around and you're at events and contests and games, I'm fairly sociable and I introduce myself to people and I keep in touch and shake hands.
• 6:37
  And from that point on, I think I just developed a relationship with lots of folks that I was someone that they could trust and I would keep things confidential and was good under
• 6:46
  pressure.
• 6:47
  And I think that was my journey into sports psychology.
• 6:49
  Yeah, it's really interesting, Ron, hearing you lay that out.
• 6:52
  You mentioned identity, which is certainly a piece of what has me on this podcast and what I do for a living.
• 6:58
  But we also have crisis in common because my entire 20s and 30s were a crisis and I had to figure out how to get out of my own way and use a lot of the things that I did as an
• 7:10
  athlete that helped me to navigate that.
• 7:12
  So I like to say the only thing I'm an expert in is my own experience, but it's been a pretty colorful journey.
• 7:18
  I just try to share what it is I've learned that works for me and for other folks.
• 7:22
  But I retired from the NFL at 28.
• 7:24
  I had, you know, a big fancy house, a fancy car, a couple of coffee cans of money buried in the backyard.
• 7:31
  And, you know, a lot of what I thought I had was the American dream and I was supposed to be super happy, but I wasn't.
• 7:38
  It was the lowest point of my life.
• 7:41
  And it took me about a decade to figure out why and what it was I was missing.
• 7:47
  And
• 7:47
  the simplest way to describe it is if I've always been what I've always done, who am I now that I'm no longer doing it?
• 7:54
  And I had no idea.
• 7:56
  So I had this identity crisis at 28, which was the greatest gift I ever received because I got the gift of time.
• 8:04
  I didn't have to wait till I was 65 in a career that I hated and, you know, two divorces and, you know, terrible relationships with my family and friends to realize that
• 8:14
  there were more important things than success and money and stuff.
• 8:17
  So the question became, well, what was the problem?
• 8:21
  And that was me.
• 8:23
  I was the problem.
• 8:24
  So the first thing I had to do was stop drinking.
• 8:26
  Before that, and this is where the psychology of all this becomes interesting for me, is parents divorced at two, at five there was physical and sexual abuse.
• 8:35
  At eight, there was abandonment.
• 8:36
  And from the time I was 10 till I graduated high school, every two years we moved.
• 8:41
  So I was the new kid in school with new friends, new coaches, new teachers, new everything.
• 8:46
  And making matters worse was I was biracial.
• 8:48
  So I never felt black enough.
• 8:49
  I never felt white enough.
• 8:50
  I felt too black.
• 8:51
  I felt too white.
• 8:52
  And I never had a real sense of who I was and certainly didn't have the confidence to just be who I was.
• 9:00
  And that's where sports came in.
• 9:01
  The second that I channeled my energy towards something that was rewarding and affirming, man, did I pour myself into it.
• 9:09
  Unbeknownst to me that the adoration that came from being successful from these older men was, you know, "good job, good block, good adjustment, good read, good boy." You know, I
• 9:20
  was getting patted on the head by these older men that became these father figures that I was unaware of and...
• 9:25
  It really served to drive me, but it also retarded a lot of my development to be, you know, to go from the hole (H-O-L-E) to being whole (W-H-O-L-E) and filling that void that
• 9:37
  really was just me and trying to figure out what that was.
• 9:40
  So I farted around with a lot of things when I was retired and just, I knew who "A-T" was, but I didn't know who Aaron was.
• 9:48
  I knew who the Lombardi Award winner was and the first round draft pick and the Super Bowl champion, but who's "Aaron" Aaron?
• 9:54
  So I took a walkabout around Europe for a while.
• 9:56
  I did some relief work in Sri Lanka after the tsunami.
• 10:00
  And I took the adult continuing education classes and I took Tai Chi and photography and pottery and salsa dancing.
• 10:07
  'Cause I was single at the time; wanted to meet some ladies, let's be honest.
• 10:10
  But I was curious about these different things.
• 10:13
  'Cause I didn't know what I liked.
• 10:15
  And that was a process of discovery.
• 10:18
  And what I found, and it took me about a decade to figure this out, was that
• 10:22
  I was really happy when I did that one thing, which was football.
• 10:26
  And when that one thing went away, I wasn't happy.
• 10:30
  So what was it that I lost?
• 10:32
  And it's what I call the Five Pillars of Fulfillment.
• 10:35
  And the first was obvious.
• 10:37
  It was income, right?
• 10:38
  How I receive value for the value that I bring.
• 10:40
  The second one was identity, how I was known to the world.
• 10:44
  But underneath that was how am I known to myself?
• 10:47
  Right?
• 10:47
  Who do I know myself to be?
• 10:49
  Those were the parts of the iceberg that were above the water line.
• 10:53
  But below that were the sense of significance and how I make a difference.
• 10:58
  The sense of community; being part of something bigger than myself, the sense of purpose, why I was put on this planet.
• 11:05
  All of that was wrapped up in my sport and occupation.
• 11:08
  And it was was incredibly fulfilling.
• 11:11
  Adding
• 11:13
  To to the challenge of that, I think, is this notion of the elusive sweet spot: something I was good at, something I got paid well for, and something that I enjoyed.
• 11:22
  Like that was the holy grail of happiness and fulfillment.
• 11:25
  And in one afternoon, when I signed those papers, all that went kapoof.
• 11:30
  So I got left with trying to figure out how do I replace those things, not realizing at all how lucky I was to be able to enjoy
• 11:39
  that sporting identity and all of the circumferential validation and benefits that came with it.
• 11:45
  So now the way that I've kind of put those five pillars back together is my identity and income I receive as a college football analyst for CBS Sports.
• 11:55
  I'm a talking head, my metals match and I wear makeup on Saturdays, giving opinions, most of which are wrong about who I think is going to win.
• 12:02
  But if that's all I did, I would feel hugely empty.
• 12:06
  So I've learned to Frankenstein my fulfillment by having one job that gives me identity and income, but the purpose and the significance and the community that I feel; why I'm
• 12:18
  put on the planet, being part of something greater than myself.
• 12:21
  How I know I make a difference is this work that we're doing here and all of the mental wellness, the speaking, the stuff I do behind the scenes that nobody knows about.
• 12:31
  Those are the things that fill me up and have led to a life that's
• 12:35
  infinitely more fulfilled now than it ever thought about being when I was holding Super Bowl trophies or a martini and too much Drakkar trying to get somebody's phone number.
• 12:47
  Wonderful.
• 12:48
  You know, it's interesting how both of you, Ron and Aaron, you talked about kind of the transition from athlete to then what am I going to do after my athletic career?
• 13:01
  And that part, that transition, what had to happen in order for that to occur?
• 13:07
  And I know that when you are
• 13:10
  competing at this high elite level, your whole life is focused on that sport and being the best that you can be and being competitive.
• 13:20
  But what happens afterwards?
• 13:22
  And I really like the five pillars that you're talking about, Aaron, because they really kind of speak to what psychology has found in terms of a sense of purpose, community, so
• 13:34
  those social connections.
• 13:35
  And then significance.
• 13:37
  How do you meaning make in your life?
• 13:39
  And it sounds like you came to that after your football career.
• 13:44
  It did.
• 13:45
  And just really quickly, I think that's a really great overlay to what's happening now with AI and the anti-social media that's driving us apart.
• 13:54
  So we lack community, we lack connection.
• 13:56
  We're in a situation now where I'm worried about what world my children are going to go into; is their major going to be obsolete by the time they get out because it's being
• 14:05
  automated?
• 14:06
  So these skills to be able to be adaptable and to navigate, to understand what bullseyes
• 14:12
  we need to even be shooting at to have a chance to hit and understand that they may move through no fault of our own.
• 14:17
  How do we adjust and take our skills that are universal and apply those in a new medium?
• 14:23
  Even being aware of that as being a skill set that we're going to require, I believe will help people navigate the transition that's inevitable.
• 14:30
  You know, I guess what it makes me wonder is, how can we prepare, especially like college athletes, for this inevitable, you know, at some point you are going to retire, whether
• 14:45
  it's at college or after when you're a pro, but how do you start preparing them that, you know, this is, I guess, temporary;
• 14:55
  that you're not going to be able to do this until you're 65 years old.
• 15:00
  So how would you say to kind of start that mindset, that kind of a broader life purpose?
• 15:11
  As it so happens, we've studied this, Debra, and so we've actually looked at ways to facilitate healthy retirement.
• 15:18
  And it is very different for a college athlete that isn't going to have buckets of money in the backyard stashed, in a big, beautiful house.
• 15:28
  A lot of them didn't make enough money to do that.
• 15:30
  The vast majority didn't.
• 15:31
  And so one of the things we found is that all these colleges have counseling centers and they have trained therapists right there.
• 15:39
  uh Most of these teams have a psychologist attached to them.
• 15:44
  And what we're finding is, and this is through some NCAA studies and research of our own here at Alliant, is that these college counseling centers aren't doing much to sort of
• 15:55
  step in
• 15:57
  and help these athletes transition from playing sport and having that identity to what's next and what's next for the vast majority, 96, 97% of college athletes.
• 16:09
  What's next is to find a job, get a career, put that degree to work.
• 16:14
  We're finding that college athletes are asking for,
• 16:17
  hoping that there's more of that structure there.
• 16:20
  Some of the problems that we've encountered is coaches.
• 16:24
  We've talked a little bit about coaches.
• 16:26
  Coaches are worried about athletes losing their edge once they start thinking about retirement.
• 16:31
  You know, "if you're afraid to get hurt, you're likely to get hurt when you play" kind of mentality.
• 16:35
  And so at the elite level, coaches never want to talk about retirement.
• 16:39
  It's one thing if you're playing golf and...
• 16:42
  you're going to go get a job at a bank later; you're probably not going to get hurt.
• 16:45
  But if you're playing football and you're pretty sure you're not going to make lots of money doing that at the next level, then your transition is a little bit different.
• 16:53
  And when you start playing afraid, you know, that's...
• 16:56
  bad things can happen.
• 16:57
  So that's that.
• 16:58
  We also did a study here at Alliant with NFL players and the NFL Players Association actually helped us with it and found
• 17:06
  I think like 80 retired NFL players.
• 17:09
  And we interviewed them and talked to them about healthy retirement.
• 17:13
  And one of the interesting things, I think there was two big findings.
• 17:16
  The one that interested me as a psychologist was that a healthy level of narcissism seemed to be one of those things that led to a smooth transition.
• 17:26
  So this self-esteem, "I'm sure I'm gonna be okay.
• 17:30
  I can take care of that.
• 17:31
  I'm gonna be good.
• 17:33
  Watch me succeed." That healthy narcissism was really one of the factors.
• 17:38
  The other one was staying connected.
• 17:41
  So instead of disappearing and not communicating with people and not being involved, it's if you're a football player, go volunteer at the local high school.
• 17:49
  Those kids would love to hear from you if you had played college or professional sports.
• 17:54
  Go to the gym, find some gym buddies.
• 17:56
  You spent your whole life in the gym.
• 17:57
  You make some new connections.
• 17:59
  You have people that value you, giving back like Aaron's doing.
• 18:03
  I met Aaron because he's psychologically minded and is giving back and wanted to be really good at that.
• 18:09
  He wanted to be giving good information to people.
• 18:12
  So going out there and meeting people that have a shared interest is that healthy retirement component that we've seen.
• 18:19
  Yeah, it was way easier to ask Ron what to do and what the data said than for me to go get a degree.
• 18:25
  I just needed to trust the initials after his name and go straight to the source.
• 18:29
  It was a very good time saver.
• 18:31
  But to your point, and there was a couple of things you said, there was a guy I met: David Lavallee, Lavallee, I always mispronounce his name, but he was the preeminent, first-ever,
• 18:42
  world's renowned, you know, professor of the duty of care of sport
• 18:46
  over in the UK and they did this incredible study.
• 18:48
  I don't know the name of it, but it involved rugby players and they studied the wellbeing of these players as they transitioned.
• 18:57
  And what it turned out was the ones that had something else to focus on besides their sport actually played longer and better than those that didn't.
• 19:07
  And what that study suggested was
• 19:10
  having some eggs in some other baskets takes some of the pressure off of having this to be the only thing, the one thing that has to work out.
• 19:18
  And they're more well-rounded so that they can navigate the, navigate the dips and peaks and valleys a little bit more consistently.
• 19:25
  And that really resonated with me because I was a type of player that put an inordinate amount of stress and pressure on myself because if I did well, great, I should.
• 19:34
  And if I didn't, life sucked until I played well again.
• 19:37
  Mmm.
• 19:38
  to me, my performance wasn't just about getting a good grade on what I did.
• 19:42
  It was everything.
• 19:44
  It was my identity, my income, my purpose, my sense of self.
• 19:48
  And I would often say, "Football is not who I am.
• 19:50
  It's what I do." But that was bull jive.
• 19:52
  It was who I was.
• 19:54
  I put all of my eggs into that football basket, never once thinking that it was going to end, it was going to be temporary, that it was just around the corner.
• 20:03
  So it retarded my development in the other areas and skill sets that I have.
• 20:08
  So that transition is really challenging.
• 20:12
  But what I try to help student athletes understand is that the skills, and Ron mentioned this earlier, talking about transferring what he did as a tennis player over to psychology
• 20:21
  and that competitive nature that allowed him to be driven,
• 20:25
  like that these skills are transferable and that you've been in competitive situations where you come in and you're the low man on the totem pole and you've got to earn respect
• 20:34
  over time.
• 20:34
  You've got to work well with others.
• 20:36
  You have to demonstrate leadership qualities.
• 20:38
  Like you have all those things in you and you've been there before.
• 20:41
  So one of the bridges that I use to be able to connect those are values.
• 20:46
  What were the values that you used as an athlete that benefited from you?
• 20:50
  To isolate those, to have them rate them one to 10
• 20:53
  back when they played, compare that to one to 10 now and what's some steps that they can take to get those threes back up to 10s and helping them revisit the success that they've
• 21:04
  had, the values and the characteristics and traits that allowed them to be successful as athletes.
• 21:10
  Many people find, myself included, that "Man...
• 21:12
  now that you say it, I have been here before." Now the despair goes to hope, which is a belief that there's things that I can do to improve my situation
• 21:21
  or create this new reality that I want, but it often requires revisiting previous success to give them the confidence to once again go from being a freshman to JV, being JV to
• 21:34
  varsity, being a high school All-American and going to Notre Dame and calling my mom on day five in tears saying, "I can't play at this level.
• 21:42
  There's this big guy, Chris Zorich, he's got a mustache,
• 21:45
  arms like legs and legs like people.
• 21:47
  Mama, I made a mistake.
• 21:49
  I can't get it." She's like, "Calm down, baby.
• 21:51
  Calm down." And she gave me affirmations.
• 21:54
  That was the first time I ever understood affirmations.
• 21:57
  She was a pediatric ICU nurse.
• 21:59
  I don't, I mean, "The Power of Positive Thinking" in the seventies, who knows what, you know, she got in Haight and Ashbury in the Bay Area where we grew up.
• 22:05
  But my affirmation was, "I'm a confident, focused force.
• 22:08
  I'm a confident, focused force." 'Cause I felt the opposite.
• 22:11
  Every time I played, I was so insecure.
• 22:14
  I didn't feel very strong or powerful and that plagued me.
• 22:18
  So the affirmations became a way to fight fire with fire.
• 22:21
  So we all have doubts.
• 22:23
  We all have insecurities.
• 22:24
  The questions become, how can we take those obstacles or those perceived obstacles, turn them into opportunities?
• 22:31
  And I've benefited from and often find that when we revisit past successes, tie those to our values, which are like run game and defense—they travel well on the road—
• 22:41
  that often when we apply those to our new endeavor, they're going to work as effectively as they did in our previous endeavors.
• 22:48
  For both of you, it sounds like taking some of the values and skills that you used as an athlete and translating them into whatever you chose to do afterwards was really
• 23:01
  important.
• 23:02
  And so I guess I'm wondering for the both of you, because I know you now work with young athletes.
• 23:09
  How do you help them
• 23:11
  build those skills and be able to recognize the skills and values that they have that are going to help them as...
• 23:19
  you know, I kind of brought you on for the football season, they're going into these really high-level games where there's lots of fans and the school is wanting them to do
• 23:30
  well.
• 23:31
  So what do you do to help them?
• 23:33
  Ron, I'm gonna put you as the starter again on this one and follow you.
• 23:37
  Because I'm curious about how you counsel people as well, because I'm always looking for tips and tricks and tools.
• 23:44
  And I've got two high school student athletes that don't listen to a damn thing I say.
• 23:48
  So I'm also hoping to pick up some strategies I could use with them.
• 23:52
  You know, I think it's really great to be thinking about the goal at the end: the championship, the bowl game, what's the next step.
• 24:01
  But all the work is done well before the season starts.
• 24:04
  And I think that's the piece that I really like to convey to these athletes that if they try to pick up some of these mental skills that we want to do under pressure a week before
• 24:17
  the big game, that's not going to be real useful to them.
• 24:20
  And so when their life isn't quite as chaotic, when they have things under control, when they have time to process and think and sleep and practice and build up a routine is
• 24:30
  really when all these skills, I think, are developed.
• 24:34
  And then during the season, it's modify, it's see what's working.
• 24:40
  We do some testing essentially, see what's working and what isn't, what we need to change a little bit for optimal performance and mental health.
• 24:48
  I think
• 24:48
  balancing those two things is really important.
• 24:51
  And then by the time we get to the big game, the big moment, the big TV appearance, all this stuff needs to be there already.
• 24:59
  It needs to be ingrained.
• 25:00
  And so then it's just, "We've got this, this is part of our DNA.
• 25:04
  Let's go through our tools." My favorite tools with this age of an athlete is the battle between positive self-talk and negative self-talk.
• 25:14
  Mm.
• 25:15
  And we do that in psychology all the time, cognitive behavioral therapy, as we identify these automatic negative thoughts, the people that have anxiety or depression have, and we
• 25:24
  help them convert those into positive affirmations, positive self-statements.
• 25:29
  "I've got this, I can do this, I'll be successful." And so we translate that into our work with athletes real easily, because their automatic negative thought
• 25:41
  is, "I'm going to fail, I'm going to embarrass myself, I can't do this.
• 25:46
  These folks are better, bigger, stronger, faster than I am.
• 25:50
  I'm gonna get embarrassed on TV.
• 25:52
  I'm gonna get embarrassed in front of my friends and family.
• 25:55
  Too many people I know are gonna be watching this." And those are all the negative things that happen.
• 26:00
  And if I try to work with a college athlete a week before the big game, and we start trying to play with negative self-talk and
• 26:08
  positive self-talk, it's not gonna be real successful.
• 26:11
  So that's one of those things that we've been practicing for six months before that big day.
• 26:16
  Then they've got this skill, just like their muscles.
• 26:19
  They've got this skill and they can use it.
• 26:22
  And yes, we may do a little bit more work and a little bit more, how do we make this happen?
• 26:29
  But that's the big one, is getting these athletes to have positive self-talk, to have them
• 26:35
  visualize themselves being successful in their quiet time, that visualization of, "I'm going to make this catch, make this block, throw this ball, support my teammates." If you
• 26:47
  can visualize yourself doing it the correct way, you're more likely to do it the correct way.
• 26:53
  If you are worried about doing it the wrong way, you generate anxiety.
• 26:58
  Anxiety inhibits our ability to perform at our best.
• 27:01
  And so for me, this balance of performance and mental health, getting all that negative self-talk channeled into positive self-talk and positive affirmations, and then letting
• 27:13
  the athlete visualize themselves being successful.
• 27:16
  That's really the work that's done for the six months before the big day, before the big game.
• 27:22
  So I think doing that work day of just, just doesn't work for anybody.
• 27:26
  Mm-mm.
• 27:27
  when we do find our crises and our panics and folks maybe being a little bit overmatched because they're not prepared.
• 27:33
  So that's my approach, Aaron.
• 27:35
  How does that sound?
• 27:36
  Yeah, it sounds great.
• 27:37
  And I'm so stupid because I wanted to say that.
• 27:39
  God I suck at this stuff, man.
• 27:42
  That's what my negative self-talk looks like.
• 27:44
  uh Certainly as a player.
• 27:46
  And this is really on point for me because I'm 72 hours removed from self-talking my way into the worst performance I've had on air this entire year.
• 27:56
  Now, luckily for the people at home, they probably couldn't tell a difference.
• 27:59
  But how I felt about it was significant.
• 28:02
  And this time of year, there's a lot of information with coaching changes, with playoff scenarios, who played who when, and these tiebreaker scenarios that again, that, you know,
• 28:12
  score that I got on my SAT makes it cognitively challenging for me to remember it as well as I'd like to.
• 28:18
  So starting on Monday of that week, I said out loud to my wife, "God, I hate this time of year because I'm no good at remembering all these scenarios." And
• 28:30
  I swear to you, day after day leading up to Saturday, I repeated that in some form or fashion to justify and...
• 28:39
  as sure as can be, I manifested that and had that experience.
• 28:44
  And I was so disappointed in myself, but then also had to laugh at myself.
• 28:49
  The good news is the dip wasn't...
• 28:50
  I didn't go into a spiral, which I normally did.
• 28:53
  It was like, have you done this before?
• 28:55
  Yes.
• 28:55
  Is it something that you're capable of?
• 28:57
  Yes.
• 28:57
  Can you fix it?
• 28:58
  Yes.
• 28:58
  What's something you can do to do it?
• 29:00
  And I'm going to share that tool now.
• 29:02
  And it's a lot of what Ron was talking about with the positive affirmations: "Next one's mine.
• 29:07
  I'm going to crush it this week." Those sort of things that are longitudinal, but also acute.
• 29:12
  But the single greatest performance-enhancing tool I've ever received, I got it at 50 years old.
• 29:17
  My wife gave it to me and it was right before I had the opportunity to call my first NFL game on CBS.
• 29:24
  This was the call-up.
• 29:25
  James Lofton, bless his heart, got COVID and I got the call-up to go call his game, which was the Tennessee Titans against the Arizona Cardinals, I believe it was.
• 29:34
  Now I got the call I was like, "Yes!
• 29:37
  Yes!
• 29:39
  Hey, how's James?
• 29:39
  Is James okay?
• 29:40
  You know, my heart goes out to him." My boss is like, "It's okay.
• 29:44
  You don't have to pretend to be concerned about James." I was like, "Yes!" So I tell my wife
• 29:51
  and she almost starts crying, she gets tears, she knows that this is the opportunity that I've been waiting for.
• 29:57
  And I look at her, I said, "Baby, I'll see you in a week.
• 30:00
  I'm about to go in the dungeon and I'm gonna watch more film, I'm gonna make more phone calls, I'm gonna prep and study harder than ever.
• 30:07
  I'm gonna knock this thing out of the box." So, okay.
• 30:10
  So by about Tuesday, she started getting concerned, because I'd start letting stuff go, I wasn't taking showers, I forgot to pick the kids up after school one day.
• 30:20
  I was all in on this prep.
• 30:22
  Now the backstory for me is that over-preparation is how I would deal with my insecurity.
• 30:27
  That if I felt if I just worked harder, I was going to know, but I would just wrap myself up in this cloak of anxiety.
• 30:33
  So she sensed that and...
• 30:35
  I hate when she asked me this question.
• 30:36
  She's like, "Are you open to an observation?" Like, I know there's a truth bomb coming.
• 30:42
  I was like, "Yeah." She's like,
• 30:44
  "You're really wound tight up about this situation." And she said, "I'm worried based on what you've shared with me that you're going to want this so bad that you're going to
• 30:52
  squeeze the life out of it." She said, "Are you open to a suggestion?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "Every time you start to think about what it is you want to do, instead, close your
• 31:03
  eyes and imagine how it is you want to feel after the event.
• 31:08
  Don't visualize;
• 31:09
  not performance enhancement on what telestration package you're going to use, what words you're going to use in the open.
• 31:14
  Close your eyes and imagine as the game goes off, what's the last thing your producer says in your headset before you take it off?
• 31:21
  Do you high five your partner?
• 31:23
  Do you guys hug as you're putting your computer board away and you look up on the field?
• 31:28
  What's the look on your face?
• 31:29
  As you go down the elevator and meet the crew and grab your meal?
• 31:34
  As you get into your car, who are the people that you see?
• 31:38
  Imagine yourself later that night at dinner laughing about some of the funny moments and some of the big ones too that you nailed.
• 31:45
  And then finally, every single time, imagine yourself going to sleep, look at the look on your face.
• 31:51
  Is it calm?
• 31:52
  Is it resolve?
• 31:53
  Is it pride?" And she said, "Not just once or twice, Aaron, but every single time you think about what you want to do, instead close your eyes and imagine how you want to feel
• 32:06
  after the event."
• 32:08
  And I got to tell you, that was definitively the best performance I've ever had because it removed the anxiety.
• 32:16
  All that was left was me and my preparation.
• 32:19
  And instead of watching more film, I went and did a yoga class.
• 32:23
  I spent an hour and a half talking to a homeless dude named Jose from Chicago on the side of the street who was a construction worker, had this incredible story of his family, just
• 32:33
  to sit there and connect and to talk.
• 32:36
  And what I've learned
• 32:37
  is that when I'm worried about what I'm gonna do, I get tight.
• 32:40
  I gotta get out of myself and the connection to other human beings is how I do it.
• 32:45
  Sometimes it could be service, sometimes it's just being courteous or having a conversation or doing like Ron was talking to being sociable and walking up and
• 32:52
  introducing yourself and taking time to talk to the parking attendant.
• 32:56
  That combination of not focusing on what I wanted to
• 33:00
  do but instead how I wanted to feel allowed me to be at my best when my best was needed, and it was in slow motion.
• 33:08
  Everything I needed, all of the information, all of the previous games, the player histories was sitting as a single book on the shelf that I could pull down, open to the
• 33:17
  page that I needed and I could recall versus looking at the vast library like, "I know that book's somewhere," and not having any idea where it was.
• 33:26
  So that's a tool I've shared with student athletes.
• 33:29
  It's a tool I've shared with business people that had big meetings and were going to be on camera and get nervous and were profuse sweaters.
• 33:36
  And overwhelmingly, when I take crowds through it, it's two to three minutes, period.
• 33:42
  They come out and they feel lighter.
• 33:44
  They feel more relieved.
• 33:45
  They feel calm.
• 33:46
  They feel excited.
• 33:47
  They feel hopeful.
• 33:48
  And it's just by the power of our thoughts, shifting our focus and attention away from what we're worried about or what we're losing
• 33:55
  to what we have and to the world that we wanna create.
• 33:58
  And this notion that our life experience is something that we can control and that how we experience life five years, five months, five minutes from right now is something that we
• 34:07
  can largely choose.
• 34:08
  But in order for us to do that, we have to change the way that we think.
• 34:13
  And for many of us, that means shifting our focus and attention away from the outcomes that we don't want to the realities and the future that we do.
• 34:21
  And that's an incredibly powerful tool for me and for many others that has worked to remove the anxiety so that all that's left was my talent and my preparation.
• 34:32
  And what I'm finding, you know, at 53 years old and finally having the confidence and finally finding my voice is that my problem isn't that I'm not enough.
• 34:42
  My problem is that I'm too much.
• 34:44
  I'm too much of what I'm not.
• 34:45
  And that tool allows me to get rid of the bulls--- and just allow Aaron or AT to show up and have fun.
• 34:52
  And that's another important piece of this.
• 34:54
  And this is how I'm sitting here on this podcast, how I'm at the desk now at CBS, how I got the NFL job, is I shifted my focus from killing it and doing well and being successful
• 35:06
  to simply having fun.
• 35:08
  When I focus on having fun, I
• 35:12
  have to be successful.
• 35:13
  I can't have fun if it's not going well, but that little shift on my target has...
• 35:19
  it's liberated me to go into the studio and to trust that I'm going to have what I need, regardless if it goes the way that we've thought about or not.
• 35:28
  And that single-handedly has opened up a universe and potential in me that I never thought possible.
• 35:34
  I'm hoping folks don't have to wait until they're 53 and overweight and old and chasing kids like I am to be able to unlock what their future and potential and their
• 35:45
  possibilities are as well.
• 35:46
  Yeah, you know, as you both were talking, it made me think, Ron, you use the word "sweet spot." I've heard "flow." I've heard "optimal zone of performance." And it sounds like,
• 35:59
  Aaron, you were able to find or your wife was able to help you get to that point of, what is that secret sauce that's going to get me to that zone?
• 36:10
  Are there other tools that you have helped other athletes use in order to get that sweet spot so that they can perform when they're needing to?
• 36:21
  Like you needed to do that for that broadcast.
• 36:24
  So I guess given your experience, what have been some other ways that have helped athletes get in that zone?
• 36:32
  Again, I think it goes back to preparation.
• 36:36
  You don't just stumble to the court or the stadium or onto the field and get to have flow state, get to be in the zone and perform optimally.
• 36:46
  It's all built in practice.
• 36:49
  It all comes from the months and months and months of preparation, doing things the right way in practice when you could be lazy, when you could take a shortcut.
• 36:58
  So if you train the right way and you think the right way and you prepare the right way and you've put in the homework and you go have fun, as Aaron was saying, then you've put
• 37:09
  yourself in the position to essentially...
• 37:13
  what we might call like muscle memory.
• 37:15
  You don't have to think about your actions while you're playing because they're instinctive and they're instinctive because you rehearsed the right way.
• 37:24
  And so you really got to put in the work to reap that benefit of flow state, of being in the zone.
• 37:30
  And boy, I've been there.
• 37:31
  Aaron's been there.
• 37:33
  We've all worked with folks.
• 37:34
  It's such a magical place to be when you do these things effortlessly and you're not over-analyzing and you're out of your head and you're just reacting.
• 37:45
  I can see it in my athletes.
• 37:47
  It doesn't matter the sport; when they go out there
• 37:50
  and they're in the zone.
• 37:51
  And I know they're not thinking about anything in the world.
• 37:54
  They're just doing their thing.
• 37:56
  And it's a really beautiful thing.
• 37:58
  But again, like all of this, I think it's rooted in preparation.
• 38:02
  I think you have to put the time in to be able to reap the sweet spot out of an event.
• 38:08
  And like Aaron was saying, the last thing I say to my athletes before they go compete, some of them really like to check in with me right before they compete.
• 38:16
  So I've got all these texts and phone calls that last, you know, two minutes.
• 38:21
  And the last thing I say to my athletes...
• 38:23
  it's funny that Aaron said this, is "go have fun." Last thing I say to them.
• 38:29
  That and, depending on what the sport is, I'll say something like, "See ball, hit ball." You know, really simplified.
• 38:38
  "Go hit somebody." This really simplified approach, not overanalyzing, overthinking.
• 38:45
  Being an analyst in your head is just not how to perform at your peak.
• 38:49
  And so if you put in the preparation, done all the work, and we haven't really talked too much about coaching, but great coaches are there to really get us into that spot, then you
• 38:59
  can go perform at your best.
• 39:00
  And it's just a thrill to see.
• 39:03
  And I love hearing about it from athletes after they do it.
• 39:07
  It really is this magic that can happen when you put in all the work.
• 39:11
  Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Ron, and it takes an inordinate amount of work to allow things to be effortless.
• 39:19
  Right?
• 39:20
  And the time to put in that work and preparation is well before the event.
• 39:25
  The event should be the easy part.
• 39:27
  I was coached by a position coach in Joe Moore and a head coach by Lou Holtz while I was in college, where the toughest day of the week was Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
• 39:37
  Mmm.
• 39:38
  got to Saturday, it was easy.
• 39:39
  There was a lot less stress.
• 39:40
  There was a lot less pressure.
• 39:42
  Oftentimes the players weren't as good as the dudes we were going against when it was good-on-good.
• 39:47
  So, we practiced for a reason.
• 39:49
  That's the time to make the mistakes, not when it's needed.
• 39:52
  It's the old, you know, Navy SEALs: You don't rise to the occasion.
• 39:55
  You fall to your lowest level of preparation.
• 39:57
  So put the, put in the work and trust the process and the results tend to take care of themselves.
• 40:02
  Anxiety reduction is the biggest
• 40:04
  thing that people report to me and the biggest struggle for mine.
• 40:08
  I've got a ton of tools that have helped me.
• 40:10
  First and foremost, having a morning routine, how I start my day, no different with fuel and food impacts how the rest of the day goes.
• 40:18
  So I've learned to charge my phone away from my bed.
• 40:21
  I've learned to have prayer and meditation and/or journal in the morning, something to kind of level-set me to
• 40:28
  you know, set an intention of, you know, I wonder who I'm going to meet today that's going to brighten my day.
• 40:33
  I wonder what old connections I'll make.
• 40:35
  I wonder what inspiration I'll have.
• 40:37
  And I'll just kind of daydream about those things for...
• 40:40
  even five or 10 minutes can make a huge difference.
• 40:43
  I've got something called a worry box or a God box.
• 40:45
  When something's taken up a lot of my head space, I'll write it down on a card.
• 40:49
  I'll do it as, you know, a dear God letter, "Dear God, please take this anxiety away from me today
• 40:55
  you know, about my stupid neighbor who won't cut his bush so that I can focus on the fact that I've got this incredibly beautiful life and these healthy kids and a loving
• 41:03
  relationship and a dream job and just for 24 hours, but just hold it for me so that I can be free and liberated to go enjoy this great life." I think the mechanism of that is for
• 41:13
  me to take what's on the inside to get it on the outside.
• 41:17
  And it's a literal act of turning it over, which, you know, for those that have a spiritual practice, we know is pretty challenging, myself included, but that's blocking
• 41:26
  and tackling of, turning things over.
• 41:29
  And it's weird.
• 41:31
  The relief I feel when I do it, it's a hack of some sort.
• 41:34
  Courtesy being the gateway to serenity.
• 41:37
  Ron was talking about the connection.
• 41:39
  A lot of student athletes are reporting, even ones that play team sports, that they don't feel connected
• 41:45
  because they're disconnected.
• 41:47
  So creating mechanisms to create that connection is a very simple way to start to feel better when...
• 41:54
  like, "I love me some me, you know, that's enough about me.
• 41:57
  Let's hear what you think about me" is one of my favorite sayings.
• 42:00
  When I'm ruminating on me and my set of circumstances and how I'm feeling, me, me, me, what I've learned to do is to turn my attention outward.
• 42:11
  So
• 42:11
  the way that I remember that is courtesy is a gateway to serenity.
• 42:16
  So I'll allow somebody to take that parking spot in the parking lot or to merge in, or I'll compliment somebody's tie or shirt, or I'll hold the door open for somebody.
• 42:26
  Even simple acts of service have a profound effect in the sense that I don't know when I feel better, but when I do and I look back, it'll be that moment I made a decision to do
• 42:37
  something for somebody else.
• 42:38
  And I believe the reason that that works for me is it reminds me that I've got value.
• 42:43
  So that whatever I'm worried about gets trumped and superseded or canceled out by this simple act of service where somebody says, "Man, thank you.
• 42:52
  That made my day." Now all of a sudden I've got a chance to keep my head above water, you know, before I start thinking about my neighbor and that dang bush again.
• 43:01
  I've set a timer on my phone
• 43:03
  every hour on the hour to kind of wake me up and I'll say a serenity prayer or some sort of other little affirmation, which is just like an hourly check in.
• 43:13
  I've got affirmations on my phone where I fight fire with fire where, in my own voice, I've found statements that speak to me or speak for me.
• 43:21
  I wait till I'm in a good mood and I've got good energy and I print them out and I read them into my phone so that when I'm at work, I just hit play and
• 43:30
  I've got earbuds in, nobody knows what I'm doing, but those 50 to 70,000 thoughts that are negative, those little ants, it's the way that I can exterminate them.
• 43:39
  I fight fire with fire.
• 43:41
  The negative voice, which I call Ernie, he's always up there chirping in my head.
• 43:46
  I got Aaron to fight him and those voices counterbalance each other.
• 43:50
  And what that allows is I go less deep, more slowly so that I can ascend and come back out more quickly.
• 43:57
  So that instead of going from zero to Richter scale, I go zero to a four; it lasts 25 minutes.
• 44:04
  I can shake the cobwebs off and go on about my day and not pass along my mood to the people that I'm around.
• 44:11
  So those are just a few of the tools that I've used over the years that I've shared that I wanted to share here.
• 44:17
  The through thread there is the anxiety and the fear that it alleviates so that again, I can enjoy what's
• 44:25
  a pretty dang good life.
• 44:27
  I think for most people, things are typically better than we think they are.
• 44:31
  And it's just simple ways with a little bit of action to be able to re-access and to rejoin the set of circumstances that are often the way we want them to be.
• 44:41
  So we've focused a lot on the individual athlete.
• 44:45
  And we haven't talked about kind of team dynamics and how that may also play into how the athletes prepare, how they perform.
• 44:56
  So I wanted to ask the two of you, have you observed or intervened in terms of team dynamics when you start seeing it impact
• 45:06
  kind of the outcome or how a team is playing?
• 45:11
  I mean, I'm gonna assume on a football team, you need them to be working together.
• 45:15
  And if you have some dynamics that are not favorable in doing that, you really have to address them.
• 45:21
  So I'm gonna open that up to the two of you to see what you have to say.
• 45:26
  I'll tell you that one of my favorite things about working with athletes are these group dynamics.
• 45:33
  Psychology prepares us really well for group dynamics.
• 45:37
  We study groups a lot and groups of people are really important in the world of psychology.
• 45:42
  Groups have folks that have roles in them.
• 45:45
  They have leaders and they have people that are discontent and we've got groupthink.
• 45:51
  And we've got momentum and all these things that happen in groups.
• 45:55
  And, you know, some of my favorite group things are what happens when we take a bully out of a group?
• 46:01
  Does the group now just have harmony?
• 46:03
  Well, usually what we find is another bully shows up.
• 46:06
  And so these things in groups translate really nicely to sport.
• 46:10
  One of the harder things for the psychologist is that we are
• 46:16
  a tool for a coach or a general manager or vice president, whoever, whatever level we're at, and usually don't...
• 46:24
  try not to jump in to upset the apple cart or do anything to group dynamics without being invited in.
• 46:30
  And I think that's really important for the psychologists working with teams, never to overstep.
• 46:36
  We're pretty good at all that individual work.
• 46:38
  But we don't want to overstep.
• 46:40
  And I've had coaches pull me aside and say, "I know it doesn't look like what you might want, but this is exactly what I want.
• 46:47
  What's happening right now is exactly what I want in this group." And so most of these great teams, we're talking about football here, but lots of other sports, they've got
• 46:56
  leaders.
• 46:57
  They've got alphas.
• 46:58
  They have folks that lead the group's thinking for them.
• 47:02
  And so a really high-functioning group has folks that lead that group that are positive, that are dynamic, that are sort of born leaders.
• 47:14
  "Leaders of men" is a term we use in sports a lot on these football teams where you may get a room full of a hundred amazing athletes.
• 47:22
  There's always going to be a few who stand out as leaders.
• 47:25
  And so when you find a locker room falling apart, it's when this leadership or these folks in leadership positions sort of don't have that, that role working out very well.
• 47:39
  I have been called in to some high-profile teams that are dysfunctional, were dysfunctional.
• 47:45
  And in one of these teams, it was an Olympic team sport.
• 47:49
  And one of the things I found is that everybody was so worried about how they were going to come off if they were the ones who were the superstar on the team, that that was going
• 48:00
  to open up advertising opportunities, you know, get on the Wheaties box and go to Disneyland.
• 48:07
  You get all those benefits of being the person on the team that made the spectacular play or
• 48:14
  you know, game-winning goal or touchdown, that kind of thing.
• 48:18
  And what that group needed was just the reassurance that they all benefited when they worked together rather than as, you know, 20 individuals all looking out for their own
• 48:29
  interest.
• 48:30
  And that when they put that aside, they performed better, performing better led to more of those things that they were seeking and they all felt better and were closer with each
• 48:39
  other.
• 48:40
  When they felt like when they helped each other, they were gonna be more successful themselves too.
• 48:44
  These group dynamics are so interesting.
• 48:47
  You really have to kind of pull the right lever or the right thread.
• 48:51
  I truly believe that coaches, especially the good ones, are psychologists.
• 48:56
  They do so much psychological work.
• 48:59
  They're managing the egos and the mood and the discipline and what needs to be done in a locker room without any of the
• 49:07
  training that I underwent or you underwent, Debra.
• 49:10
  They are really the psychologist in the room.
• 49:13
  And so when we get called in, I think there are some things we can do with these groups, but good leadership from within and good leadership top down is really big strong thing in
• 49:23
  groups in my eyes.
• 49:25
  Yeah, God, Ron, there's so much you're talking about that's resonating.
• 49:27
  I'm having to write things down because there's so many different things.
• 49:30
  like The definition of leadership that I love is, "A leader is somebody you follow to a place you wouldn't go by yourself." And that's a huge burden.
• 49:39
  And a lot of people don't know how to do it.
• 49:41
  There's been various levels of leadership that, you know, I've been and I've learned from and I've watched and now as, you know, a father of three kids and, you know, a husband of
• 49:51
  a two-person team, like there's multiple levels of it.
• 49:54
  It's incredible.
• 49:55
  The through thread of any leadership role and any good culture that I've ever had...
• 50:00
  And I lost two games in high school.
• 50:02
  I lost seven in four years at Notre Dame.
• 50:04
  I went to back-to-back Super Bowls with Green Bay.
• 50:07
  The through thread there is trust.
• 50:09
  Trust has to be the foundation of any good culture.
• 50:13
  And what that trust says is
• 50:15
  that in the inevitable times of adversity that you can count on me, that I will be there, that I will find a way to do my job and get it done no matter what.
• 50:24
  If that's there, then you can stack some of the other things on top of it, and that foundation is there.
• 50:30
  If it's not there and you try to solve it with talent and quick fixes, time after time after time, I've repeatedly watched that implode.
• 50:38
  The trust that...
• 50:40
  If I focus on what I bring to a situation versus what I can get out of it, everybody's going to get more of what we wanted anyway, which is something that I've personally
• 50:49
  experienced.
• 50:49
  And Ron, your story about the Olympic team perfectly underscores.
• 50:54
  These are hard dynamics to deal with because oftentimes you have these finite or perceived finite opportunities to accomplish these great things.
• 51:04
  And we can work ourselves up into a tizzy because we're afraid of losing what we have or not getting what we want.
• 51:10
  That's the nature of what team sports and makes it so interesting.
• 51:13
  And as an offensive lineman, it requires complete sacrifice of comfort, of ego, of feeling good, of acknowledgement and notoriety.
• 51:24
  It has to be done in the dark for somebody else's benefit for it to be what it needs to be.
• 51:30
  So...
• 51:31
  Those dynamics are really, really challenging.
• 51:34
  And what we're finding in the world of, of NIL, which has led to transience is that the key factor of these programs that are successful in going to win the national championship
• 51:45
  moving forward, aren't the amount of money that they spend and the talent they can amass.
• 51:50
  It's the culture that they build and how quickly you can adapt that culture.
• 51:55
  Dan Lanning at Oregon is at the top of that list.
• 51:59
  Every single meeting they have, a coach or a player gets up and shares three things that's something to this effect.
• 52:06
  I don't know if they're exactly this three but for illustrative purposes only.
• 52:09
  Who helped you get to this room?
• 52:12
  One thing you're thankful for.
• 52:14
  And one piece of adversity you've overcome in your life that allowed you to be in that room at that moment.
• 52:19
  It takes three minutes.
• 52:21
  You cycle through the whole team and invariably what you find is you have these common shared experiences that you're hearing somebody else tell your own story that you never
• 52:31
  would have talked of
• 52:33
  to because they're a DB that's a walk-on on the other side of the ball and you're, you know, a star offensive lineman or something on the other side.
• 52:41
  You start to create connection in these common grounds so that when that adversity hits, there's this common ground where you can reduce things to the lowest common denominator of
• 52:52
  being a human being and having empathy and compassion.
• 52:55
  Those aren't words we often use in a locker room when you're trying to smash somebody's face in.
• 53:00
  But they do prove to be the critical elements that are there for the good cultures.
• 53:05
  And I want to be fair here, but I talked about high school at De La Salle, Notre Dame college, back-to-back Super Bowls.
• 53:12
  The first sport culture that I got into that wasn't good were the San Diego Chargers.
• 53:18
  And we had a lot of talent on that team.
• 53:19
  Rodney Harrison was on that team.
• 53:21
  Junior Seau was on that team.
• 53:23
  But there was something missing.
• 53:25
  The salt of championship pedigree was gone.
• 53:29
  And I felt it within three or four days of being inside that building.
• 53:32
  It took me a long time to figure out what those dynamics were and what was taking place organizationally, how things were run, what the history was, but I felt it because it was
• 53:43
  different.
• 53:43
  So it's real, it's creatable, but to do that, we have to be intentional with how we approach it.
• 53:50
  And Ron's example is a perfect example because the coaches have the greatest ability of impact and influence
• 53:57
  over what's taking place.
• 53:59
  And in the scouting and coaching world, whatever it is, you're either allowing it or you're teaching it.
• 54:05
  Because if it's not what you want, it's your job to fix that, to set the standard so that the rest of the team can live up to that standard.
• 54:12
  And you cannot have a team full of me's that are worried about Wheaties boxes if you want to be successful.
• 54:18
  It sounds so simple, you know, the word "trust." But it's so, I mean, we all know in terms of relationships, it is a key ingredient.
• 54:28
  And especially if it's ever broken, how hard it is then to recover from it.
• 54:35
  You know, one of the things that I know I've heard is the impact of fan expectation and now social media.
• 54:44
  So I actually want to talk to you all about what you're seeing because this...
• 54:50
  you know, with social media now, they have access to these athletes in a way that before they didn't, right?
• 54:58
  Because a lot of them have accounts and things like that.
• 55:02
  So how is that impacting athletes' mindset and performance?
• 55:07
  You see me grinning ear to ear over here to talk about this.
• 55:11
  I think it's an unbelievable change in the landscape of sports is social media and the availability of these athletes.
• 55:19
  Having people comment to you about everything they're thinking because you did something on TV that they saw...
• 55:27
  it's powerful, it's disgusting, it feels like a weapon at times.
• 55:32
  One of the things I really need to do is to get my athletes off of social media.
• 55:37
  They have some obligations to be present, to post, to do some advertising, to do some networking.
• 55:45
  There are some of those real things out there, especially with this NIL
• 55:49
  era where you have some responsibilities to get paid.
• 55:52
  But I ask all my athletes to turn off comments.
• 55:57
  I ask them to do the best they can at not doom scrolling; this idea that you get in there and you just start reading comments and they're negative and they're negative and you go
• 56:07
  down a rabbit hole and then you look at the page or the person who left the comment and you want to leave them a comment and now you're fighting with strangers on the internet.
• 56:14
  None of that is helpful, and it can be really powerful and super negative, especially as I'm talking about these high school and college athletes.
• 56:24
  You would not believe until you experience it how much is going on in the direct messages for these athletes.
• 56:32
  So I work with high school and college athletes.
• 56:35
  We've talked about this...
• 56:36
  maybe
• 56:37
  you've heard the phrase of "dropping into your DMs." It's where people can leave you a private note on social media.
• 56:43
  And these athletes get bombarded.
• 56:46
  Their inboxes are full of people leaving private messages.
• 56:50
  Sometimes they're sweet and they're kind and they're nice.
• 56:53
  Sometimes it's, "I want to go on a date with you," which can be dangerous too.
• 56:57
  And a lot of time they're just negative and mean and threatening.
• 57:00
  And this is...
• 57:02
  This isn't the professional athlete.
• 57:04
  This isn't someone who has an agent and a manager and a PR person managing their site.
• 57:09
  This is a college kid who's 19 years old that has to deal with all this social media stuff.
• 57:14
  It is unbelievable what these kids are subjected to in social media.
• 57:20
  And the idea that they now are held responsible for anything they've ever posted.
• 57:25
  People are going back making a living out of looking at every post someone has ever made to see if there was anything slightly negative or contrarian or racist or negative in any
• 57:37
  way and they hold it against them three years later or four years later.
• 57:40
  So something that a kid did on social media when they were 15 is now going to be used against them when they're 19.
• 57:47
  So this social media thing, it's...
• 57:49
  I never imagined that
• 57:51
  my role as a psychologist was going to be kind of this PR manager where it's like, "Try to ignore it, stay off it.
• 57:58
  Don't do the deep dive.
• 58:00
  Don't look these people up.
• 58:01
  Don't take the bait.
• 58:02
  You know, don't, don't, don't." And it'd just be great if they ignored it completely.
• 58:06
  There's some really interesting stories about famous athletes who can't stay away from the social media.
• 58:14
  And they even create
• 58:16
  what we call "burner accounts," fake accounts under a fake name.
• 58:19
  So they can engage in negative dialogue with people just because they can't sit still and let things be.
• 58:27
  So social media is giant right now.
• 58:30
  And these poor kids, these 19, 20, 21 year olds without a lot of support and without a lot of PR training for this are totally being overwhelmed by the negativity and the access and
• 58:43
  the...
• 58:44
  you know, there's positive things too
• 58:45
  when celebrities reach out to you or famous people reach out to you.
• 58:49
  And it's overwhelming.
• 58:50
  The social media concept for this is just so overwhelming for these kids.
• 58:54
  And I do my best: Turn off the ability to leave you comments on your site.
• 58:59
  Think about what an attorney or your mom or your, you know, your mentor would say if they were sitting on your shoulder looking at the post you make.
• 59:08
  Make your post, look at it, stare at it for a while before you hit, you know, make this live.
• 59:15
  Anything to delay some of those impulses that people have with social media.
• 59:19
  It's really scary what's going on out there and it's only gonna get worse, I think, too.
• 59:24
  Yeah, don't take criticism from somebody who wouldn't take advice from.
• 59:29
  This is one that I think resonates a lot.
• 59:32
  I agree with you, Ron.
• 59:33
  I think historically we'll look back at this era and see that big tech had the same effect on humanity as big tobacco did.
• 59:42
  That the negative effects of it were so overwhelming that it trumped the positive benefits that individuals and communities and groups get.
• 59:52
  It's a huge problem and making it worse is the legalized gambling that's come online.
• 59:58
  We're seeing the problem and the temptations that the players are having both on the collegiate and in the professional leagues.
• 1:00:04
  The Athletic, which is, you know, an online magazine that, you know, is heavily read, at least in my industry, in the college football industry, polled thousands of professional
• 1:00:15
  athletes and to a person, the, you know, unofficial
• 1:00:19
  non-scientific data, the feedback observationally, overwhelmingly was they hate it because it's given people permission to say and do things to them based on their gambling habits
• 1:00:31
  and how much money they won them or not.
• 1:00:33
  What we're seeing with the advent of NIL, where alumni and fan bases are being solicited to continually give and raise money so that they can compete in the cold war of acquiring
• 1:00:45
  talent.
• 1:00:46
  They now feel entitled to go after them and say things to college student athletes that they would, you know, at a professional game because they're getting paid.
• 1:00:55
  "He should make that catch.
• 1:00:56
  He should make that throw." You add that to the pressure of the student athlete who's now the breadwinner in his family and every relative he's got is trying to put his hand in his
• 1:01:05
  pocket.
• 1:01:06
  There's a clearinghouse so the money that they do have coming in takes a long time to be able to get out and there's pressure because there's rent to pay.
• 1:01:13
  And all of this is supposed to happen while these student athletes (in air quotes) are supposed to be going to class and performing at an optimal level.
• 1:01:20
  It's an absolute joke what's being asked of these student athletes.
• 1:01:25
  And then you pour fuel of social media on top and the addictive nature of that.
• 1:01:30
  What happens to our dopamine centers and the doom scrolling, we get locked in.
• 1:01:34
  The students,
• 1:01:35
  athletes that I work with overwhelmingly report they don't want to be on social media, but because that's how everybody else is talking to one another, they feel compelled that
• 1:01:44
  they're going to miss out on something; invariably they see a party that they didn't get invited to and then they feel FOMO.
• 1:01:50
  It's like it's this problem.
• 1:01:52
  Now in all fairness, social media is just a tool, and just like a sword, it could be used to bless or it could be used to cut.
• 1:02:00
  Unfortunately,
• 1:02:01
  a lot of student athletes are cutting themselves and other people because they don't have the discipline or the fortitude to do what Ron was talking about.
• 1:02:09
  And that's to delete social media.
• 1:02:11
  And I'm as guilty of anybody.
• 1:02:13
  About three or four years ago, I had a pretty good game.
• 1:02:16
  I think I was in San Diego and that's always sketchy because when I'm at home, I prep a little different and don't typically do as well.
• 1:02:23
  So I said, "This time I'm going to do it." And I felt really good about my performance.
• 1:02:28
  Went on Twitter after, was scrolling, and like
• 1:02:30
  one dude with 13 followers was like, "Every time I hear Aaron Taylor analyze something, I want to poke my ears out." And he gave a specific example and I misidentified somebody by
• 1:02:45
  name or number.
• 1:02:46
  I gotta be better than that, I'm a professional.
• 1:02:48
  But I walked out of that stadium feeling as if I had just gotten fired.
• 1:02:53
  And
• 1:02:54
  my performance was good.
• 1:02:55
  I knew it was good, but I read the comments of a stranger and I'm embarrassed to say it affected the way that I felt.
• 1:03:02
  And I was in a funk until the next day, until I could shake it off from a comment from a dude I didn't even know who has no idea and is not qualified as nearly as I am to comment
• 1:03:13
  on games, nor has he been able to do that job.
• 1:03:17
  And what I say to people is imagine you two, if every client session you had,
• 1:03:22
  that the whole psychological community could watch that session, grade it, evaluate it, and send you their thoughts about how you handled it.
• 1:03:30
  If you take that across any occupation, imagine the pressure that that would have if live in real time while you're in session, people could give you feedback of how you handled or
• 1:03:42
  asked a question or decided to go down this rabbit hole versus that one.
• 1:03:46
  Most people would melt
• 1:03:48
  underneath that amount of pressure.
• 1:03:49
  Yet these 17, 18 to 32 year olds, depending on what level you play, the public now has access in a way that never existed before.
• 1:03:59
  And it's a real problem that's negatively impacting performance because of all of the things that it requires the student athletes and the athletes of any level to be able to
• 1:04:10
  navigate.
• 1:04:10
  It's a huge problem.
• 1:04:12
  And the answer, Ron,
• 1:04:13
  is...
• 1:04:14
  again, and I believe wholeheartedly in what you suggested.
• 1:04:16
  It's a very simple one, but it's difficult and that's to remove social media or to have some sort of blocks on it where you schedule the hour of the day that you're going to use
• 1:04:26
  it.
• 1:04:26
  But because it's so affirming, because it's so rewarding, people get addicted to being in that loop and it becomes very difficult habits to break.
• 1:04:35
  But those that do report, they feel overwhelmingly better and they play better
• 1:04:42
  because they feel better as a result.
• 1:04:43
  Thank you for that.
• 1:04:45
  This is permeating all of our lives and particularly for student athletes.
• 1:04:51
  All right, last question.
• 1:04:53
  I could talk to you for hours and hours on end, but we're going to do our last question.
• 1:04:59
  I am going to ask you, from your experience, from your expertise, what key takeaways do you want
• 1:05:09
  to tell the audience as we go into this college football bowl season, but also, know, the Super Bowl and Winter Olympics.
• 1:05:22
  So what would you say to the audience in terms of key takeaways and these elite athletes?
• 1:05:29
  Well, no pressure there.
• 1:05:33
  [Laughing]
• 1:05:33
  You know, I think one of the things that's really important is that as a consumer, we watch sports and competition for enjoyment.
• 1:05:44
  At least that's the way it's intended.
• 1:05:46
  One of my biggest takeaways from meeting elite athletes and student athletes is that they are just people.
• 1:05:54
  And they're humans that do this thing that we're all interested in.
• 1:05:59
  And there's this immense amount of pressure on them.
• 1:06:02
  And we've talked about the social media and we've talked about how they get paid and we've talked about performing in front of their parents and their friends and all that pressure.
• 1:06:12
  But especially college bowl season and Olympians, they're just humans.
• 1:06:19
  They're people that are out there trying to do the best they can at this thing they love.
• 1:06:25
  And that for the most part, when these individuals are competing, they're not thinking about all that other stuff.
• 1:06:31
  They're just playing the game they love.
• 1:06:33
  And this game came from something they did as a child.
• 1:06:36
  We played these games as children because they brought joy and happiness to us.
• 1:06:41
  And then we got some accolades.
• 1:06:43
  We got some attention for it.
• 1:06:45
  Maybe our teacher liked us in high school and gave us a break because we were good at sports.
• 1:06:49
  Maybe we got a better date to the prom.
• 1:06:53
  Got to go to a great college.
• 1:06:54
  Aaron got to go to Notre Dame.
• 1:06:55
  What a fabulous college and university to go to.
• 1:06:59
  And these folks, they're just people and they're under this immense amount of pressure.
• 1:07:05
  And so some gratitude for the thing that they do to bring this joy so that we can watch
• 1:07:12
  and participate and root for our country or root for our alma mater, root for or root against even if you want to do that.
• 1:07:20
  I just think that we just have to back off a little bit from sort of the deity status of athletes and just remember that they're humans and they're people and they have feelings
• 1:07:32
  and they're doing the best they can.
• 1:07:35
  And I use that when I work with them.
• 1:07:38
  I try not to be in awe of people.
• 1:07:40
  I try not to need a picture with them.
• 1:07:43
  When I met Aaron, I enjoyed meeting Aaron, but I didn't say, "Hey, Aaron, can you take a picture with me so I can post it on my social media?" I was just happy to meet him and
• 1:07:53
  have him in my life at this level.
• 1:07:56
  And so my take-home thoughts on all of this is enjoy watching sports.
• 1:08:01
  Celebrate these athletes and the joy that they can bring you and your alma mater, the school you went to, the sophistication of their play in a sport that maybe you played that
• 1:08:11
  you love.
• 1:08:12
  But let's try to leave it there.
• 1:08:14
  And as Aaron said, he's a little bit worried about all this gambling.
• 1:08:17
  I'm really worried about all this gambling.
• 1:08:20
  It takes away the enjoyment of watching sport.
• 1:08:22
  It becomes a financial thing.
• 1:08:24
  It's not about rooting for people to win.
• 1:08:26
  It's about rooting to
• 1:08:27
  win money.
• 1:08:28
  And so those are my big fears.
• 1:08:30
  So I just want to celebrate the athlete.
• 1:08:32
  I think they're, they're making gigantic sacrifices that those of us at home have no idea.
• 1:08:38
  My athletes didn't go to prom.
• 1:08:40
  They didn't go to homecoming.
• 1:08:41
  They didn't get to eat dessert at Thanksgiving.
• 1:08:44
  They missed, they missed family vacations.
• 1:08:47
  They, they made endless sacrifices.
• 1:08:50
  An athlete I'm working with now, he's up every morning at 5:30 because he's got to be at the gym at 6:00.
• 1:08:55
  He lifts until 7:30, then he goes and gets the food from the nutritionist, and then he goes to class, and then he goes back to practice, and then he goes back to the gym, and
• 1:09:06
  then maybe he does some homework, and that's his day at 6 a.m.
• 1:09:10
  to 1 a.m.
• 1:09:11
  every single day.
• 1:09:12
  And those sacrifices are great.
• 1:09:14
  And so I just want to say thank you to the athletes and celebrate them.
• 1:09:18
  And I think that's what I think is the most important thing here when we talk about these kids that...
• 1:09:22
  I've given up so much to bring joy and happiness to us, the viewer at home.
• 1:09:26
  Maybe we'll win a bowl game for our school.
• 1:09:29
  It should be really fun.
• 1:09:30
  I'm looking forward to it.
• 1:09:31
  My college hasn't won one in a few years, but they might this year.
• 1:09:34
  So I'm really excited.
• 1:09:35
  Well, good luck and we'll be cheering for 'em.
• 1:09:39
  Man, this is such a deep and layered question and nothing really floated up that I'm compelled to say, but for the student athlete, it's keep the main thing the main thing.
• 1:09:50
  If you're an athlete, find the joy out there.
• 1:09:54
  Remember what it is that got you into the sport and anchor yourself to that because at some point for us,
• 1:10:00
  I believe it becomes transactional too.
• 1:10:02
  It becomes this means to an end.
• 1:10:04
  For me, it was acceptance and that I was a good boy and that I was lovable and I'm successful.
• 1:10:09
  It would mean and bring all these things to me.
• 1:10:12
  But as I shared earlier, it was empty.
• 1:10:14
  It didn't work.
• 1:10:15
  Those were empty calories.
• 1:10:16
  I didn't get the self-wholesome nutrition that I needed from being my whole self.
• 1:10:22
  The fans...
• 1:10:23
  It's important to understand that the athlete that makes the mistake in the critical moment, nobody feels worse than that young man or woman.
• 1:10:31
  That to Ron's point of all the preparation and time and sacrifice and commitment that goes into the sport, there's nobody that feels worse about the sack that's given up than the
• 1:10:42
  offensive lineman that just gave it up.
• 1:10:44
  Like that's the nature of professional sports.
• 1:10:46
  My job is to stay between the defender and the ball carrier at all costs.
• 1:10:50
  His job is to make sure that he gets past me to get to the ball carrier.
• 1:10:55
  Go.
• 1:10:55
  We both have to grade out at 90 plus percent for us to stay employed.
• 1:11:00
  So everything in our body is, is working towards being the better and winning that Delta of difference, which is oftentimes unattainable.
• 1:11:09
  So when those mistakes are made, you gotta understand it.
• 1:11:11
  But like that's asking a lot of an audience to, you know,
• 1:11:16
  tap into compassion and empathy for this, you know, overpaid guy that's making $500 million.
• 1:11:22
  And I think there's a resentment that's come into sports that is concerning for me.
• 1:11:28
  There's...
• 1:11:29
  and part of that is gambling.
• 1:11:31
  It involves money, fantasy football and being right.
• 1:11:35
  And now if I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan, maybe I've got Saquon Barkley now, but maybe I've got somebody on the Giants or from Washington
• 1:11:43
  because I need them to perform well.
• 1:11:46
  So I've got these competing interests and it just becomes this means to an end.
• 1:11:50
  A big reason why the country was Notre Dame fans is because they were in the news reels during World War II as the only sports.
• 1:11:57
  So the entire country got to see it and the country got to feel being part of something greater than themselves.
• 1:12:03
  I feel like we're losing that.
• 1:12:04
  And the isolationism and the means to an end and the transactionalism that's taken place in sports
• 1:12:10
  is really leeching out the benefits of what it can be when it's at its best.
• 1:12:17
  It's...
• 1:12:17
  I know that's a big word salad and it was a very simple question, but I think I want to speak to the student athlete and that's, you know, reiterate what I said.
• 1:12:26
  Your life experience is something that you can control.
• 1:12:29
  And how you feel
• 1:12:30
  and how you play and how you perform five years, five months, five minutes from now is something that you can largely choose, that you have an incredible amount of impact over
• 1:12:41
  that.
• 1:12:42
  But in order for that to happen, you've got to begin to change the way that you think; this little squishy gray matter up here, the supercomputer dictates so much of what the
• 1:12:52
  hard work and dedication is.
• 1:12:54
  And if we can master this with discipline,
• 1:12:57
  the sky's the limit for our potential and the outcomes that we can create.
• 1:13:01
  And I don't think I fully appreciated that.
• 1:13:03
  And those tools work, especially when times are bleakest, especially when you feel the worst.
• 1:13:10
  They're no less effective then, for me and for many others, than they are when you're feeling good.
• 1:13:15
  'Cause I know when I'm feeling good, I want to stop doing it cause they worked.
• 1:13:18
  It's like you go to the gym, I work out, I got strong, great.
• 1:13:21
  And then I don't go to the gym and I'm wondering why I'm not strong anymore.
• 1:13:24
  It's a part of development that needs to be...
• 1:13:27
  that works best when it's consistently maintained and that requires effort.
• 1:13:32
  But like I say, it's hard work either way.
• 1:13:34
  So your minds will pick the route where the light at the end of the tunnel is salvation instead of a train racing your way.
• 1:13:40
  Thank you so much, Ron and Aaron, for this conversation today.
• 1:13:46
  It was really enlightening and informative.
• 1:13:49
  And I think I took away, one, to remember the core of this: It's supposed to be for fun and joy and not about making money.
• 1:13:59
  And I think the both of you have really clearly talked about that,
• 1:14:04
  really to remember, these are student athletes and they have sacrificed hours and hours on end to then play in these games that it had taken preparation and training; hours that you
• 1:14:17
  have not seen for them to play at that Saturday bowl game, and to appreciate that and to enjoy and celebrate them.
• 1:14:25
  So I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart because I learned so tremendously
• 1:14:31
  from the both of you.
• 1:14:32
  And I wish I could talk to you for more time.
• 1:14:35
  I just learned so much and that you brought heart to this conversation.
• 1:14:39
  So thank you.
• 1:14:40
  As we head into the bowl season, remember it's not just about the X and O's; it's about mindset, resilience and discipline that define these student athletes long after the final
• 1:14:54
  whistle blows.
• 1:14:55
  As we end today's episode, remember: Wellness is a journey, not a destination.
• 1:15:01
  Until next time, stay sharp, stay curious, and keep playing the mental game.
• 1:15:06
  Thanks, Debra.
• 1:15:07
  Thank you.