Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Katie Woolf spoke with University of NSW and Advisor to the World Health Organisation Epidemiologist Professor Mary-Louise McLaws

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Katie Woolf spoke with University of NSW and Advisor to the World Health Organisation Epidemiologist Professor Mary-Louise McLaws · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Three sixty with Katie Wolf. Join the conversation with Katie Wolf.
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  Speaker 1: You are our eyes and ears in the Territory Mixed
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  Speaker 1: one oh four point nine.
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  Speaker 2: It's been an incredibly busy weekend for our health professionals
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  Speaker 2: as those international flights from India return. But as you've
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  Speaker 2: probably heard, almost half of the one hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 2: people that were due to catch the Quanta's repatriation flight
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  Speaker 2: out of India were not allowed to board that flight
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  Speaker 2: to Darwin after forty eight of them tested positive for
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  Speaker 2: coronavirus before boarding. Now, Territory health officials confirmed that because
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  Speaker 2: many of those have close contacts, it meant seventy were
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  Speaker 2: no longer able to fly. There is no discussion though
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  Speaker 2: about the testing regime, and well calls for standby lists
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  Speaker 2: for those flights to ensure that the flights are filled
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  Speaker 2: next time around. But here in the Northern Territory and
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  Speaker 2: specifically here in Darwin. It's also, i guess sparked well
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  Speaker 2: some further discussion about another new testing regime, this one
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  Speaker 2: out at Howard Springs that the quarantine facility.
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  Speaker 1: Now.
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  Speaker 2: On Friday, we spoke to the Police Commissioner Jamie Chalker
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  Speaker 2: and asked about those changes. But joining us on the
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  Speaker 2: line right now is University of New South Wales epidemiologist
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  Speaker 2: and also advisor to the World Health Organization, Mary Louise mcclaus.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning to you. Good morning, Mary Louise, Thank you
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  Speaker 2: so much for your time this morning, well as plenty
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  Speaker 2: of our listeners would have heard on the show. On Friday,
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  Speaker 2: the Northern Territory government scraped the use of daily rapid
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  Speaker 2: antigen tests for our quarantine staff out at Howard Springs,
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  Speaker 2: anti health authorities telling the media on Friday that the
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  Speaker 2: gold standard PCR testing would be used instead. Firstly, are
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  Speaker 2: you able to tell We'll talk us through the difference
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  Speaker 2: between these types of tests.
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  Speaker 1: That'd take a while, So let me just explain that
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  Speaker 1: a PCR test is not without its own problems. Certainly,
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  Speaker 1: all tests perform differently depending on the level of infection
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  Speaker 1: in society, so as the rates go up or down,
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  Speaker 1: the accuracy will also change. The PCR test is done
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  Speaker 1: for diagnosing and is particularly good at diagnosing somebody with
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  Speaker 1: symptoms or about within two days of getting symptoms. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: Whereas and also that diagnostic test it goes for a
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  Speaker 1: target on the virus that also is the spot for mutation,
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  Speaker 1: so that just needs to be kept in mind as
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  Speaker 1: well for its false negatives. The rapid antigen test has
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  Speaker 1: a different target that can't mutate. It looks for the
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  Speaker 1: virus itself, and don't forget PCR tests can give you
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  Speaker 1: a false positive in that yes, they've detected the virus,
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  Speaker 1: are remnants of the virus, but you're no longer infectious
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  Speaker 1: to anybody. So that positive test can remain positive for
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  Speaker 1: quite some time where the rapid antigen tests will pick
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  Speaker 1: up the virus itself way before you are anywhere near
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  Speaker 1: having symptoms. So it performs extremely well in that situation.
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  Speaker 1: And that's where you want to pick up any idea
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  Speaker 1: of any of the live virus in staff so that
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  Speaker 1: they don't take it in adversiency back into the community.
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  Speaker 2: So, in your opinion, what would be a better test
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  Speaker 2: to be using for the health staff out at Howard Springs.
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  Speaker 1: I think that there should be a test that tests
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  Speaker 1: people with a great deal of certainty that when you're
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  Speaker 1: labeled negative, you truly are. Now. I did hear that
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  Speaker 1: the chief epidemiologists defended the choice of using only PCR
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  Speaker 1: because rapid antigen tests have a reputation that's not necessarily
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  Speaker 1: accurate anymore for having false positives, but I put it
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  Speaker 1: to the epidemiologists that that's better in this situation than
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  Speaker 1: a false negative. That if if somebody turns to have
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  Speaker 1: a positive result, it gets checked by a PCR test,
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  Speaker 1: and that might put a staff member out a bit
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  Speaker 1: for a number of hours, so they might have to
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  Speaker 1: stay on campus overnight while they're waiting for that result
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  Speaker 1: to come back. But the difference between a PCR and
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  Speaker 1: a rapid atagen test is when I'm talking rapid, it's
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  Speaker 1: real time fifteen minutes, where a PCR test can take,
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  Speaker 1: if you're lucky, many hours and mostly a day. So
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  Speaker 1: it's historic information, it's not information about what's happening right now.
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  Speaker 1: And this was brought up at the World Health Organization
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  Speaker 1: on Thursday night about using rapid antigen tests and the
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  Speaker 1: algorithm of what happens when you have a positive you
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  Speaker 1: confirm it anyway, and all tests should be confirmed and
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  Speaker 1: not just taken as carte blanche, that it really is
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  Speaker 1: a positive test.
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  Speaker 2: And Mary Louise, when you look at what's happening in
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  Speaker 2: other locations, what are the large majority doing? Are those
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  Speaker 2: rapid rapid antigen tests being utilized or is it the
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  Speaker 2: other type that are being utilized, the PCR.
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  Speaker 1: That's a very good point. In Australia, the only test
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  Speaker 1: that I'm aware of that has that's on the Medicare
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  Speaker 1: rebate scheme A the PCR tests, and so by and
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  Speaker 1: by large they're using a PCR test now I think
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  Speaker 1: in Victoria they're using the one that was developed by
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  Speaker 1: the Dougherty that is a Saliba test. It also has limitations,
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  Speaker 1: like all the tests where I believe the accuracy for
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  Speaker 1: picking up positive cases about eighty four percent, and these
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  Speaker 1: rapid andigen tests are matched that and are even mostly
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  Speaker 1: higher than that. So all the twelve that I know
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  Speaker 1: of rapid antigen tests that are approved by TGA really
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  Speaker 1: have very high levels of accuracy that you want right
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  Speaker 1: at the beginning of the journey into being positive. So
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  Speaker 1: a day that you're exposed it can pick it up.
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  Speaker 1: PCR can't, and so this should be changed around Australia.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So Marylois, do you think that in some cases
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  Speaker 2: people are going down the path of not using the
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  Speaker 2: rapid antigen tests because it so it cost efficiency thing.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yes, because they're getting a rebate from through the
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  Speaker 1: Medicare system except for all remind your listeners or these
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  Speaker 1: rapid aagen tests are a fraction of the price. So
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  Speaker 1: I believe that the rebate is about one hundred dollars,
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  Speaker 1: but these tests may cost an American dollar on average
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  Speaker 1: five five dollars, so they're a fraction of the price.
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  Speaker 1: But I understand that most states and territories don't want
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  Speaker 1: to use them because they'll have to pay for that
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  Speaker 1: extra cost if they mix and match with a rapid
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  Speaker 1: antigen test and a PCR test, because it's not on
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  Speaker 1: the rebates system. I believe because you think about it.
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  Speaker 1: As soon as you get travelers from overseas touching their
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  Speaker 1: feet on Australian ground, that's when you want to know
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  Speaker 1: are you dealing with somebody that's positive or not. A
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  Speaker 1: rapid engigen test will tell you while they're waiting for
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  Speaker 1: their bags in se minutes. If they're positive and it's
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  Speaker 1: a false positive, no big deal, because you're going to
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  Speaker 1: test them with a PCR. You just might cohort them
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  Speaker 1: in a better facility right from the get go.
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  Speaker 2: And so taking all of that into account, do you
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  Speaker 2: feel that realistically, you know? Not? Just when we're talking
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  Speaker 2: about the health staff out at Howard Springs, but also
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  Speaker 2: when we're talking about the arrival of repatriated Australians to
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  Speaker 2: the Northern Territory, that they should be having those rapid
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  Speaker 2: antigen tests once they arrive.
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  Speaker 1: Definitely, in outbreak management, you put in layers of protection
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  Speaker 1: because if the virus or human nature can get through
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  Speaker 1: one layer, it's picked up by another. And these rapid
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  Speaker 1: antigen tests can be done in batches, can be done
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  Speaker 1: singularly often, and they can be done rapidly so they
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  Speaker 1: don't put people out for you waiting order six hours
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  Speaker 1: for the saliva PCR or overnight for the regular PCR test.
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  Speaker 1: This is fifteen minutes at a very low cost and
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  Speaker 1: adds an extra layer of care.
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  Speaker 2: Mary Louise, we are running out of time. But I
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  Speaker 2: know some people listening this morning might be thinking to themselves, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, so long as we're testing the staff out there,
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  Speaker 2: and so long as we are testing people when they arrive,
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  Speaker 2: it should be okay. I mean, to anybody out there
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  Speaker 2: that is thinking that this is sort of fear mongering,
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  Speaker 2: what would you say to them?
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  Speaker 1: I say to them, the twenty fourth breach in a
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  Speaker 1: hotel quarantine that occurred in South Australia. Occurred because the
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  Speaker 1: PCR test couldn't pick up this man's infection early. I
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  Speaker 1: believe he was tested around day thirteen. He had a
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  Speaker 1: negative test. He then left on day fourteen and went home.
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  Speaker 1: He then got symptoms five days later. PCI didn't pick
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  Speaker 1: it up. If he hadn't had a rapid atagen test,
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  Speaker 1: it is more than likely that he would have been
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  Speaker 1: picked up and there would have been no anxiety and
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  Speaker 1: no threat of a three day knockdown.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it is certainly some real food for thought. Marie
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  Speaker 2: Louise mclaus. I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank
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  Speaker 2: you so much for chatting with us. I know that
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  Speaker 2: you're struggling a bit with your voice there this morning.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: It's a pleasure say well.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. That is epidemiologist there, Mary Louise mcclaus. She
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  Speaker 2: is with the University of New South Wales but also
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  Speaker 2: with the World Health Organization on that advisory board with
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  Speaker 2: the World Health Organization,