Latest / How to Faith a Life Podcast with Faith Womack / Your Walk with God isn't Impressive? Conquer the Performance trap.

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Your Walk with God isn't Impressive? Conquer the Performance trap. · How to Faith a Life Podcast with Faith Womack

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening to the How to Faith a Life podcast, where we wrestle with questions on how to live a life of faith, from everything from books to Bible studies, even Bible study tips, this is your place to wrestle with the hard questions and dive deep into what scripture really says for the Christian walk.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you've subscribed to this podcast and your favorite podcast streaming services, review this podcast so other people can find it, and share with other believers who want to ask the hard questions.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, with all that said, let's begin.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Hi friends, welcome back to the How to Faith a Life Podcast, a Ministry of Volunteer Ministries.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm so excited to have Hosanna Wong on the podcast.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: She has written a new book, Uncomplicated.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: It came out of having over a thousand conversations with Christians about their struggles with their walks with the Lord, feeling distant from God.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so excited to pick her brain all about how we can grow in our relationships with the Lord, not stagnant, not into legalism, but into life-giving practices that actually are surprisingly like maybe not what we would expect from traditional Christian, like how we like to put God in a box.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, all of that to say, Hosanna, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's an author, teacher, speaker.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: She does all the things.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've reviewed her book, How Not to Save the World, on my YouTube channel a couple years ago.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the podcast.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've been so looking forward to it being in your space with your people.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think us Bible nerds, we love to feel like a pat on our backs, like performance a little bit when we're saying the word.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, I did a word study.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: I now know everything about Assyria and exile.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I can stand before God to feel a little bit better about myself.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens to us in our dark seasons when we feel distant from God, when we can't bring ourselves to study his word or to really even dive deep?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think honestly, we need books like yours and your wisdom to speak into those moments.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So will you share a little bit about the backstory of this book?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's the right question.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like when we think that we have to achieve to earn some sort of status with God, or we're trying to be some kind of spiritual Olympian, or we feel all high and mighty when we have the best routines, when we're the king of spiritual disciplines or the queen of spiritual rhythms, like what happens then when there's a loss in our family, when there's a loss of a job, when we feel shame, when we feel guilt, when we can't have the routines we once had, when our life is going a totally different way than we expected.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now, because of the standard we've created for ourselves that never came from God, now we feel all this guilt and shame that's holding us back from God and from experiencing God in the season we're actually in.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we're living in all this guilt and shame that Jesus already came to set us free from.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Where did the standard come from?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went on a journey, like you mentioned, of asking a thousand people around the world.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: It took me about two years to ask people from different ages, stages, different cultures, different backgrounds, different seasons of life, students who are playing basketball in high school, and so they have different times of practices and classes, and then couples who are entering their retirement era, now becoming empty nesters and single moms of three in their 30s, all these different types of people from different walks of life, and ask them these two questions.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: One, what has stood in the way of you connecting with God?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And two, what is a unique way you have found to connect with God?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I found that throughout all different walks of life and different backgrounds and cultures, many of us had roadblocks that we felt stood in between us and God.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know what I thought I was gonna discover, but after two years, I discovered six of the greatest roadblocks globally, the most universal roadblocks that we feel when it feels like we can't have a real connection with God.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the six were one, busyness.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: I have too much going on to possibly have a relationship with God.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Two, distractions.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: I can't focus.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I pray, my mind goes somewhere else.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not doing it right.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Three, grief.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: So many people said I'm hurting too much.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe once the season's over, maybe once I'm healed from this loss and the therapist bill is paid, then I can have a relationship with God.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would totally relate to that.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, I kind of think that sometimes too.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Four was shame.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not good enough.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I've done too much wrong, I'm hiding too much.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Five was silence.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people, specifically younger people, said, I feel like I can't hear God.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: The way other people talk about hearing from God, I can't hear from God.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like our relationship's one-sided.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: And the one that perhaps was the most common was the sixth one, expectations.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: That looked like two things.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think similar to what you're talking about.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: One, expectations that we have felt from other people of what our life must look like, what timeline we must be on, what our faith must look like, what our time with God must look like, or else.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: But just as often, honestly, I wonder if you have seen this too in your life.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Just as often there were people who had expectations they put on themselves.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like they couldn't name, oh, this person's forcing me to live this way, or this person's telling me I'm not good enough.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: There was either a voice in their head from their past or some unrealistic expectation they put on themselves that didn't come from God, some version of themselves they were aiming to achieve.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think the best way to have a relationship with God is when it looks like this at this time of day, this many days a week, and I'm not making the mark.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: I am not reaching my own expectations.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't believe how many times I had the same conversation with gracious, vulnerable people to even have this conversation with me, who are doing their best to love God and love people well and obey God to the best of their ability, but they simply felt all this guilt and shame because they felt they weren't the right people or they weren't in the right season or they weren't connecting with God the way they used to.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to say if anyone that's listening relates, I want to say to you what I said to over a thousand people.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Your relationship with God does not have to look like anyone else's relationship with God.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't have to look like it did years ago.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: God wants to have a real relationship with the real you in the current season that you're in.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's what I kind of discovered, which is what created the book Uncomplicate It.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, man, I want all my friends to know how free they are.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: I want all of your friends, all my family members, and everyone's family members to know.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Faith wasn't meant to be this complicated.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the enemy of our souls has victory in our lives when we overcomplicate what our faith must look like.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I believe Jesus came to uncomplicate it.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the message that I hope to share with people.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why do you think we put these ideas of what we think our walk with the Lord should look like?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do we live by them and why do we put them over what's reality and what scripture says?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't think this is a Christ follower specific problem.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think we're the only group of people that do this.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I do think when we see other people's lives on social media, at our place of work, or if we follow Christ and we go to church, maybe also at church, I think when we see other people's lives, it could be easy to compare our lives to them.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think this is like a Christian specific issue, but I think it is more dangerous when we are people who have put our faith in Jesus.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: We are supposed to be people who are free from shame.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I think often it is our well-meaningness, our desire to please God, our desire to obey God sometimes makes us worship what it looks like to obey God.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then in those cases, we're trying so hard to obey God that we're in fact disobeying God.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: I can give you an example.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: I found that for a lot of people that had history in church or history in Christ following environments, they commonly said that expectations was their roadblock.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: People that maybe had never really put their faith in Jesus before or didn't have any rhythms, they were more likely to say, oh, busyness, you know, one day or shame, I'm not good enough.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: But people that had a background in church often said expectations.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you something that I discovered.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was constantly telling people who felt like their rhythms were just not perfect and it didn't look the way it used to, didn't look like they're pastors, didn't look like that one person on TikTok.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was constantly telling people, you know, God doesn't call you to be perfect.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: This pressure you're putting on yourself doesn't come from God.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Constantly they would quote scripture at me that God does call us to be perfect.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: They knew their Bible.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: They knew that there was a verse in the Bible where Jesus said, perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that for a lot of us that are exhausted trying to reach a standard of spirituality that Jesus did not give to us, I think more times than not it comes from a really well-meaning place that we really want to obey and serve God.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think we have bad hearts.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think we might have poor theology.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I went on a journey of unpacking it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, yeah, they're right.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Why did Jesus tell us to be perfect if we weren't supposed to live our lives exhausted trying to impress people?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would think it would mean too.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Just to unpack quickly, if there's anybody listening who would say, yeah, expectations to be crushing it have really held me back from living free and peaceful and filled with joy.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to unpack for you the context of this scripture so that we can unlearn some of the false teachings we may have believed that might keep us back in shame.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: So this is what Jesus was actually saying.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is what Jesus actually meant.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: When Jesus says, because he does, he says in Matthew, be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: But the Greek word that Jesus is using when he says perfect doesn't mean be impressive, carry more than a human can carry, put on a perfect spiritual show.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: The word actually means complete.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: It means whole or to carry out something completely or holy, maturely.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus was not saying to go and be impressive, he was saying to go and be complete.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Do I feel complete today?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do I feel like I am who I am in private, the same as I am in public?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Do I feel complete?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Do I feel like I've given God every broken piece of my heart and of my life and invite him to heal it?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus was speaking against a non-fragmented life.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was saying, I want you to be complete.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the context in which Jesus was telling them, which when I read the context and really dove deep into what Jesus meant to say, I thought, man, the enemy of our souls is having so much victory by helping us take this out of context and live out bound.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: But the context is that Jesus is telling his followers, his students, his disciples, how to live.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And he's contrasting how the kingdom of the world is versus the kingdom of God is.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: He's even talking about how many religious people get it wrong.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Religious people who perhaps were well-meaning.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so Jesus tells his friends this you have heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your father in heaven.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do not even pagans do that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus was literally speaking against people who have performative faith.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: He was speaking about people who were just putting on a show.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he was saying, Some of you only love people when other people are watching.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And some of you only love people if you can get something out of them.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And some of you are so obsessed with what it looks like to follow God that you are not actually truly following God yourself and you're missing it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: So Jesus was telling his disciples, I don't want you to be one person in public and someone else in private.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want you to live this fragmented life.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: I actually want you to be whole and complete and be fully yourself with integrity, even if other people around you are living lives of duplicity.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Be whole and complete, as your father is whole and complete, and love others completely, love others wholly.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that one reason why so many of us feel this pressure to perform or be perfect is because most of the time we just want to please God.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then the enemy has taken something good and distorted it enough where we now feel all this guilt and shame when we're not making standards or meeting expectations that don't come from God.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: So today I say over my own life, man, I am not crushing it.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not impressing anyone, I am not caring as much as I wish I could carry.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: I am not doing everything in my life perfectly, but by the grace of God, I am doing my best to obey God and to love God and love people well, and that is the call that comes from God.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's pure worship too.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, Lord, I trust you even with my not enoughness, with my burkiness.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think sometimes we settle for legalism and performance faith because it actually is easier.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's cheaper.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it demands less of our vulnerability.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you said that easier.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he wants us easier, cheaper.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you said cheaper.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: It is easier because had that verse meant, oh, be perfect as your father is perfect, if it meant produce more than other people, then I could wake up earlier than other people.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Then I could just stress myself out more than other people.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then I can just spend my whole life performing.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And quite frankly, many of us do that.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: But Jesus wasn't saying that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: He was saying, I want you to be whole and complete.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And for what it's worth, the religious people of Jesus' day, they were crushing it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: They were carrying out spiritual practices perfectly, flawlessly.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: They practiced Sabbath better than Jesus did.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: They had how Jesus did it.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: They they were they had such a better structure.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, they missed Jesus.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I pray that's not us.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: God, don't let it be us.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't let us worship the structure more than we worship the source of life, Jesus Christ Himself.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I want us to be very careful when we talk about spiritual disciplines and practices, all of these things that are meant to help you stay connected to Jesus.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Praise God.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: That we don't start worshiping the structure, that we don't start worshiping the spiritual disciplines more than we worship Jesus Christ Himself.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to miss it.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Quick pause This podcast isn't sponsored by a brand or a company.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually just a ministry of Bible Nerd Ministries.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason we get to have conversations like this one is because of our Patreon community.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones who fund and sustain this work.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to support the ministry, you can join Patreon for weekly in-depth Bible studies and access to so many years of past studies.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if a monthly membership isn't your thing, you can also support us by checking out our merch and studies and courses, all at Bible Nerd Ministries.com.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get back to the conversation.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for Jesus to uncomplicate it in our lives and in our relationships with him?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think first of all, you come to Jesus as who you really are in the season you're really in.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's where he wants to meet you.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't want a relationship with a pretend version of you.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't want to heal what you're pretending to go through.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't want to have these conversations with you when you're saying the words you think you're supposed to say, but they're not what you really feel or they're not what you really think.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: God wants to have a real relationship with the real you, and I am sorry for the ways we as Christians have overcomplicated it.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: We also, some of us came with a lens of shame.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we were living out a lens of shame, and then we were calling other people to also live with a lens of shame.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think for us to accomplish the great commission, we first need a great uncomplicating.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: We have to come to God as who we really are without performance, without any ounce of faking it, and then invite people to also come to God as who they are without putting on a show.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you, one of the things that I discovered was when I was trying to figure out, okay, how do I do this?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: How do a thousand of my friends now do this when we feel all these roadblocks?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I heard a thousand people say what stood in the way of them and God, and then I heard a thousand of them answer the second question.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is a unique way you have found to connect with God?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm hearing all these answers that were so weird to me.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: They were so quirky and like oddly specific to them, like truly, like ways I have never encountered God.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, wow, like it's almost as if God, the creator of the universe, made us each uniquely, wonderfully.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost as if he created us all to have a relationship with him, and then created us with specific details to set us up for success to do that.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: So why do we sometimes think that our details are standing in the way of us in God?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then God gave us our season, he gave you your family, your parents, your kids, he called you to a specific space and place.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Why do we think those things are in competition with us having a relationship with God?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't we see all of this as our life with God?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of the things I noticed in all the conversations was how often we divorce our real life with our God life.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: We see our real life with our kids and our piles of deadlines and our piles of laundry and our jobs and taking care of our parents and our in-laws, and then we see our God life, the quiet, serene time.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, the really silent and solitude with cute artwork and the best pour over coffee time.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we believe that, when we separate our lives, when we can't have that perfect God time, we feel all this guilt and shame.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: But did God not call you to these places and spaces?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Did God not give you empathy?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Did God not create you and call you to love him and love people well?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: How is the enemy of our lives convincing us that we're doing something wrong?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: How is he convincing us letting guilt and shame when we are showing up for the people that we love, when we're serving the people God has put in our lives?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Why are we separating our God life from our real life?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: The truth is that the best way to have a relationship with God is to have one in the middle of your real life.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And God wants more than segmented time with you, He wants to spend your whole life with you.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you some examples of stories I heard of people who have already uncomplicated it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: One was a single mom of three in Arizona, and she said, I used to have segmented time with God, and then I had kids.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have a partner.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I constantly feel like I can't have the relationship with God that I did years ago when I was younger, when I was single, when I felt like I had all the time in the world.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: My time with God used to feel like a Hallmark movie.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was so cute and magical, and now my life's a mess.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, I stopped trying to keep God out of my mess.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: And now I pray while I fold laundry, because there's always laundry.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Now I pray for each kid while I fold their clothes, and my time with God smells like lavender fabric softener.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: To the glory of God.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: I met a gentleman who's a touring artist in Latin America.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And he said that he used to think he had to spend time with God the way his dad did, because his dad would wake up in the early a.m.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: and pray for hours.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And he realized that while he's a touring artist doing what God has had has called him to do, providing for a family that God has given him.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I can't wake up that early and and connect with God that way.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so you know what I do now?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: I've started praying and listening to the Bible and audiobook while I'm at the gym.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I used to think it didn't count because it just didn't sound as holy as how my dad used to do it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that was real for my dad.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for my kids, something has to be real for their dad.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: He said, You know how some people bring their friends to the gym, they call them their gym buddy?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: He said, Jesus is my gym buddy, and my relationship with God has never been more real.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like hearing all these conversations.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you one more.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: This woman in Tijuana in her sixties said her relationship with God was always real.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: She always had great rhythms with God.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: She loved her time in God's word.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: She loved her community at church.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then when her daughter was in her 30s, her daughter tragically passed away.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, My life no longer looked the way it used to.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't talk to God the way that I used to.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: I was so mad at God.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I changed two things about my time with God.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, What are the two things?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, One, I stopped trying to pray pretty and I started praying ugly.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I prayed all these ugly prayers.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: I yelled at God, I screamed at God.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: I invited him into how mad I was at him.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: As I wrestled about God, I wrestled with God.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I found another woman at my church who was also struggling with the loss.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: We found another woman at our church who was also struggling with the loss.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now we get together once a week and we pray ugly prayers together.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I have never felt the peace of God and the comfort of God more real in my whole life.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then I said, My gosh, what was the second thing you changed?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Now I pray at night.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, that's so simple.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: She said, Yeah, but my whole life I thought the holiest people only prayed in the morning.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I've lived my life really feeling a lot of guilt when I can't wake up earlier.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm not gonna pretend like my life is the same as when my daughter was alive.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now I pray at night, and it's the most real time I've ever had with God.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: She said, if people don't think this is okay, who cares?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And amen.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I just mean to say that some of us have grown up with some idea of what this perfect Christian looks like.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if someone taught it to you.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you just assumed it.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what this person looks like or what comes to mind when you ask yourself, what is the perfect Christian?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: But that picture does not come from God, a loving God who created you and wants to have a relationship with you.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: So where did it come from?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so those people really help set me free of thinking, you know, how can everyone that I share about Jesus to have a relationship with God the way I do?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: How can my little brother have a relationship with God like me?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: How can my spouse worship God like me?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so just to answer your question, I think these people really pointed me towards a very uncomplicated savior.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: As I heard all these stories of people who have experienced God when they invited him.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Into their real lives with their own personality, with their own learning style.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: It became more real to them.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was unpacking what abide in Christ would look like for a thousand different people.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: And to share it quickly, to not make this like a seven-week series with your community.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I love it.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: I studied vineyards for a handful of years.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: I am not, I did not grow up a farmer.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an inner city kid from San Francisco.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of people are listening to this, not watching this, but if you saw me, like nothing about me gives off deep in the dirt farmer vibes.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I know nothing about vineyards.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know nothing about agriculture.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I have studied people who grow vineyards in Portland and New Zealand and Napa and Tuscany.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I was at this vineyard, family-owned vineyard in Italy a couple years ago, trying to figure out how I could help everybody abide in Christ, remain in Christ, live in Christ, even if we're all very different.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I asked this wine grower, I said, Hey, if I wanted to create the perfect vineyard, if I wanted to start to grow the perfect vineyard, where would I start?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm thinking he's gonna give me like 10 perfect steps.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm gonna write a book, you know, 10 perfect steps to flourishing, right?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Abiding for dummies, 10 chapters, 10 steps.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's the kind of content I want.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, What are the 10 perfect steps?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he laughed and he said, There are no 10 perfect steps for every vineyard.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: He said, if you want to start a flourishing vineyard, my first question for you is, What is your soil?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I don't have 10 steps for you.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have one question.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: What is your soil?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: What are you made out of?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: What are the nutrients of your soil?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: What's the history of your soil?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: What does your soil need?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: And he pointed to all these different vineyards around the hill we were standing on, and he said, That soil is different than that soil.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: The weather patterns over there will be different than those.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: That one has more shade, that one has more direct sunlight.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: That soil has gone through more than that soil.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, You can be inspired by other vineyards.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: I have certainly studied other vineyard growers.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: I have studied them and I'm inspired by them.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I take a lot of what they've taught me and use it, but I can't just copy and paste exactly how they grow their vineyard.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you try to do exactly the same thing as another grower on your vineyard based on soil you didn't have on your soil, he said it won't help your vineyard, it will hurt it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to fall in love with your soil.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've just learned that to truly remain in Christ, to really find my home in Christ, not to put on a suit and tie and go to work and think I have to produce for Christ, but to put on my favorite hoodie and rest my head on a cozy couch and the safety of my home kind of relationship with Christ.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to copy and paste how other people have a relationship with God.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: I want to learn from them.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: I want to listen to podcasts like yours.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: I want to listen to Bible teachers who have done walks with God for a long time.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I also have to look at my own soil, where I'm from, what I've overcome, what God's called me to, the season my family is in, and say, Jesus, will you meet me here?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And from here, I want to abide in you and spend time with you.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it can be more than fake and performative and a great spiritual show, but it can be real and it can be healthy and it can be flourishing for generations to come.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: How has this set you free in your personal walk?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sorry for the sniffles.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: You made me tear up, and now my nose is running like Niagara Falls.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: But how has this changed your own walk with the Lord and your relationship with him and giving you freedom?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Fan and has given me so much freedom.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what's true is that before I had those conversations, I did think I was very free.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would say, like I live very free and I want my friends to be as free as I am.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: I feel very free from legalism, from performing.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: I want everyone to be as free as I am.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went on this journey and I realized there was so much more.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: There was so much more freedom than I could have imagined.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: And what really it's really changed how I um I don't know, my marriage.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like my husband does not worship God the same way I do.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't read the word of God the same way I do.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good thing.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's changed how I see the capacity of my job and the capacity with my family.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've had so many seasons when I felt like I'm just really failing everyone, when I'm not crushing it.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: I had a season while I was writing this book when my little brother, who's six years younger than me, had a got he fell at work, he had a disease that no one could diagnose.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: He was in the hospital for weeks, and I thought I was gonna lose him.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And in this time when I'm being present with my brother, I'm flying from all over the country from preaching somewhere to be with my brother in the middle of the week.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: I feel all this guilt and shame because I'm not spending time with God the way that I was two months ago.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not waking up as early as I normally do.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm letting my team down.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not the perfect boss, I'm not the perfect coworker.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: Letting my friends down, I'm not getting back to every text.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I missed weddings, I missed baby showers.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not crushing it.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's not fake in my mind.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: There were people who were disappointed in me.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so me reframing, I'm not too busy to encounter God.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was the roadblock of busyness that I had to learn at that time.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not too busy to encounter God.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm full of doing things God has called me to do.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is not my God life in my real life.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: In my God life, it's sweet and serene, and in my real life, my brother's sick.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, in this hospital room while I'm helping hold my brother down while he's having an episode, while I'm getting him food and walking him around the hospital.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like God is with me and God is with us, and God wants to be there in the middle.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me, I had to stop saying I'm just too busy to encounter God and realize I'm full of doing things God has called me to do.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I need to embrace experiencing God in a new way through it.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: What is God like as a healer?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: What is God like as a comforter?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: What is God like when I feel like I'm failing everyone else?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is an invitation to actually get closer to God in a new way.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I've found that a lot of us with kids, with loved ones in grief, we feel like we're not spending enough time with God or doing it the best way.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to take a step back and ask myself these two questions.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll just tell you this: this applies now in the season I'm I'm in.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Praise God, my brother's alive.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: They found a diagnosis, he's on medicine.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jesus.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: And just in the capacity of my job and my life and my family and all the people we serve at our church, I've constantly had a say when I feel like I'm just too busy.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm just, there's too much going on.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've thought, okay, what has God called me to do?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And what has God not called me to do?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to come to God and ask honestly, God, what have you called me to do and what have you not called me to do?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever comes to mind, what has God not called me to do?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: This is not a scheduling issue.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is not the answer, is not to buy a cute new calendar.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not to just work really hard to be better at organizing.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it's often something I need to repent of.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is there something I'm doing that God has not called me to do?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I need to surrender it and stop putting the bar for that so high.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: God didn't call me to it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then if I say, God, what are you calling me to do?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's coming to mind as my mom and my brother and my friends and their kids and my church and my marriage and then also work.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: If God has called me to all of it, then it is not in competition with time with God.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: I am not busy.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm full of obeying God in all these ways.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't 10 years ago.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's wrong because it's different.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: But God is saying, I called you to it, invite me into it, obey me, love me, and love others well in it.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do that, then you're gonna be whole, complete, like God is whole and complete.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say expectations and busyness, exposing the truth about those two roadblocks has really set me free as I continue on this journey with my brother and his diagnosis.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just me realizing God is very flexible, God is very gracious, God is very uncomplicated.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: We have overcomplicated this, but he just so badly wants to be in a relationship with us.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: And all throughout history, God has just made ways for us to be close to him, to break the wall between us and him, to break the veil between us and him, to break all the roadblocks between us and him.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to get to God, it will not be through earning, it will not be through performing or producing or having the best spiritual disciplines or putting on the best spiritual show.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: It will be through faith in Jesus Christ alone, because Jesus is the shortcut to God.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus is the road to God, Jesus is the only way to God.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then as you spend real time with Jesus in your real life, your relationship with God will be more real and vibrant than it ever has before.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I've bet my whole life on that.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can so hear your heart.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: It just comes through so strong.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: To fight the lies of the enemy that tells us we need to be in our heads what we think a perfect Christian woman or I for sister would be and really ask, What has God called me to be?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Quick pause before we get further into the conversation.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Last year I flew to Kaungwari, Kenya, and saw firsthand one of the most thoughtful mission models I have ever encountered.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Us Bible nerds are working together to fund 2,000 water filters through the Bucket Ministry.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: They don't just bring clean water, they come back three times for discipleship, sharing the gospel and helping new believers get connected to the local church.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they do it by hiring local missionaries, discipling neighbor to neighbor in the local language.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to be part of that work and join us Bible nerds, we'd love for you to join us in support of the Bucket Ministry.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: All the information and all the links are in the show notes.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right, now let's get back to the conversation.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think the enemy specifically attacks us in the ways of like what do other people think I need to be and performance-oriented thinking?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you think the enemy is constantly trying to sidetrack that area, like the way we view ourselves, performing, performing, pleasing other people, all of that?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's um it's a really quick shift of perspective.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think for some of us, we may not struggle with hitting rock bottom.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: We may not struggle with thinking God isn't real, you know, and spitting our lives out of control, worshiping other things.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: But for a lot of us, the enemy can take something that's good in us, our empathy, so we're constantly with other people, relating to other people, our curiosity, which is also a good thing, and like looking at other people, our whimsy, our wonder, like good things about us.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And all he has to do is distort it a little bit.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's much easier.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or our desire to please God, like our desire to be holy, and he can just take that and distort it and make us see it and obsess over it and then compare ourselves to other people.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: Man, like he has been trying to make us feel shame from the beginning of time because I think he takes good things in us and distorts them, makes them God things.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: What why do you think, like when when I share this, like what what what comes to mind for you?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like to me, it's self-worship.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: He loves to make like instead of our eyes being set on Christ, it's like, how could it be about me?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: At least maybe that's just me projecting, and that's my personal struggle.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, it's just totally you.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've never struggled with that ever.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Truly, it's just I find that in my personal walk, the enemy loves to make things about me so that I'm no longer relying on Christ and relying on myself.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm worrying what other people think about me instead of worrying about being obedient to the Lord.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, putting all my energy towards myself instead of the Lord.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because if it's not, if my eyes are off of the Lord, then I can fall for lies.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can waste time.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm off mission.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm losing the spiritual battle of sorts.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's also like your identity then is tied up in yourself and not tied up in whose we are.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it when it we're tied up with whose we are, then everything's put in its right place.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: We know who wins the battle, we know, you know, our clearest mission and our clearest calling and all of those things.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I like that you said self-worship.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're right.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think for me, it's easier to look holy than it is to be holy.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you can put on a spiritual show that's impressive enough, you might even get praised for it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: You might even get praised for how your spiritual walk looks.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: So there's reward for it.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: There is all this earthly reward for looking holier than others, for looking impressive to others.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think even that economy is not helpful for us because it's easier to look holy than to be holy.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is what Jesus was speaking against.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are times when you will be humble, like really humble before the Lord.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: You take a step of faith for the Lord, and it doesn't look humble to other people.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's hard because you want to look holy, you want to look humble, and you want to be a good example.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: But there's plenty of times when sanctification looks like the opposite to other people watching.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I have heard many people not take steps of faith, not say what God has called them to say, not start the thing God has called them to start, not volunteer at the thing they felt God called them to volunteer because of how it looks.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want us to be at a place where we just want to obey God when people see it and when people don't, where we don't worship things that are bigger and more public, and we don't worship things that are smaller and more private, where we say, hey, throughout my life, I'm gonna obey God in a lot of ways.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you'll see it, sometimes you won't.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: But as for me, in my house, we're serving the Lord.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think self-worship is totally right on.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we can sometimes be tempted to do the easier, cheaper thing, which is to look like we're following God really well.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're in a dangerous territory.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: When I talked to that one uh winemaker in Tuscany, and then like a wine specialist and Pasel Robles, I remember this one's wine specialist, she was like a wine scientist, like Bill Nigh the science guy, but for vineyards.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: She was so cool in her white lab coat.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: And she said to me, I said, like, how do I know like if I'm if I'm growing well?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do I know if the vineyard's flourishing well?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and and what do I have to do?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like as I'm growing more, like how do I, how do I carry all this fruit really well?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like a trellis is a structure that helps us.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need a stronger structure in my life if I am growing so much fruit?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: And she said to me two things.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: One, she said, maybe, maybe when you're growing a lot of fruit, you need a stronger structure in your life.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: For us, that might be a stronger, you know, we have to know that the structure that held us up when we started our vineyard, the structure that held us up when we started our faith might not be able to support us now when we're growing all this fruit.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important to look at your current season.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the same one you had five years ago.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Look at your real life in what ways is God calling you to take a step of faith?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: And how can you spend with spend time with God in a new way?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's not just checking boxes, but it's actually growing your faith, right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how can you go deeper with God?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, one thing she said was that.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we can come back to that.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's real for a lot of us.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Man, I don't want I don't want to move on too fast because some of us we feel a lot of guilt and we feel a lot of guilt and shame because a trellis helps us, a structure in our lives, helps us not live so laid down.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: It helps branches not get too tangled, it helps them not carry burdens they were never meant to carry.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And some of us might say, I feel heavy in my faith.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like I love God, it's real, but I feel heavy, maybe even a little bit bored.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm starting to feel a little bit stale.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the answer for you might not be, oh, it's a sin in your life.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: It might be, we'll get to that.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: But it might not be a sin.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: It might be that you're producing all of this fruit.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe the vineyards that you learned from weren't producing this much fruit.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't know how to carry this much fruit.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the structure that has held you up to this point, through all the growing you've already gone through, cannot sustain you now.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: It cannot help you have the most vibrant connection to the source of life.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now remember, there's no power in the structure.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's only power in the source of life, Jesus himself.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: But the structure can help you.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: So for you, if you're producing a lot of fruit, don't let the enemy make you feel guilt and shame for the fact that your life is producing more fruit.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: You might need a stronger structure in your life.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: What are some disciplines or rhythms that God is calling you to grow in?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's for some of us today, in some seasons that we're in.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps you're producing fruit that your mentors could not teach you how to carry.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: That was for someone today.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's for me, let's be real.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, I thought I did this because me and you just like needed each other.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: But the second thing she said is she said, or it might not be a trellis, um, it might be that you need a prune.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Sometimes you're growing a lot of fruit and it looks really beautiful and it looks really bountiful.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: But if you do not prune, your branches aren't healthy.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Okay, I get it.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have like a fig tree in my yard, an orange tree.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: I have to prune because the goal is to produce the most fruit ever, right?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: You prune back, you get more fruit.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's the goal, right?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: The most fruit ever.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, No, to be clear, we're not trying to produce the most fruit.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to produce good fruit.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, You can drive down all these vineyards right now and see some of the most aesthetically pleasing vineyards that have not been tended to in a long time.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: You'll see people stop and take photos by them.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're overgrown, they're not healthy, but they look really beautiful.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: And people will take pictures and photos and post those.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: She said, But we're not just trying to make table grapes or a backdrop of grapes for people's photos.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're trying to make fine wine.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: She said, You need to prune what's no longer healthy, not so that you grow the most fruit, but so you produce good fruit.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I would say to Christ's followers today, myself included.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: There are Christ followers who are producing a lot of fruit, but the fruit is plastic.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: There are Christ followers who are producing a lot of fruit, but the fruit is sour.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's Christ followers who are producing a lot of fruit.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it's even aesthetically pleasing, and maybe it's even going really viral, but when it's not connected to the real vine, we are producing fruit that is poison.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: We have to be careful.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: We were never called to produce the most fruit ever.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: We were always called to produce good fruit.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: So are you connected to the real vine, Jesus Christ?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Are you in real relationship with him and worshiping him more than the structures and more than the fruit?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: Are you connected to the real vine?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're feeling heavy and weighed down, exhausted, maybe even bored, maybe even stagnant, I would consider that one of these two things might be the answer for you.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you need a stronger structure for all that good fruit.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe are you producing some fruit that is not good?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's not giving people the nutrients that they need.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: God, don't let it be me.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that means that we need to come to God, let him search our heart for real, and surrender the things he has not called us to do.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Surrender the unhealthy growth.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Might might look aesthetic and pleasing to other people because it looks like growth, but it may not be healthy.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't always know the difference of what it looks like in other people's lives, but I know the difference in my own life.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: So God search me and know my heart.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: Good fruit only, please.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: This has been so good.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to cut it off, but I also want to respect your time.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: But like, I am so excited about this book.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when this airs, guys, the book's already out.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So get on Amazon right now, add it to your cart, order it.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's Uncomplicated by Hosanna Wong.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: H-O-S-A-N-N-A, W-O-N-G.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uncomplicate it.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I am so excited for them to read it, be transformed by it.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: I am so excited about it as well.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is just exactly what the church needs in this day and age when it's so easy to pass plastic grapes, you know?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like we just it goes viral, right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we love it, it looks good.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: You can frame it, put it in a box, but the Lord doesn't call us to that kind of faith that something you can control and frame and looks so aesthetic.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: He calls us to real.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for leading the way for so many people and helping them uncomplicate their faith and their time in God's word.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not boring or stagnant, but real for people.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, thank you.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the generations that will know God for real because of what you've said yes to.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and thank you for having me and letting me us have our own personal Bible study right now.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: Please listen to it.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, where can people find you?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know they're gonna be like, I like her.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: She's my kind of person.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they go follow you and all the things?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the best place is probably Instagram at hosanna.wong.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, please get the book.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: But also, since you love podcasts because you're listening to this, I also read the audiobook.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: If the audible is more your jam, go get the audiobook.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love to read this to you, bring you into the hills of Tuscany into a thousand conversations, and let's bulldoze through all the roadblocks.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, probably Instagram is the best place, and all the links will be there.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: One stop shop.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd love to all thank you.