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Transcript

Kids In Service? · The Reformatory

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_06]: What do you got for me?
• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do, but I don't know what to do
• 0:32
  [SPEAKER_06]: As far as I'm not for me, we could have had the benediction right there, that was so good.
• 0:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: What's going on everyone and welcome to the Reformatory podcast for the local church and by the local church and we are your local churchmen.
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: My name is Josh, and I'm here as always with the man recently employed back in the back of the line.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, back on the line, Jack Barry, the captain, Jack, it's good to be with you.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: happy new year, uh, happy back, uh, back to for a week, man.
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: All the things, uh, it's a good, it's a good day.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a good day.
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a good day.
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's fun.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was not to be bad.
• 1:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a pretty chill.
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, plus on top of it, I'm working on Eastern standard time hours.
• 1:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I got to get up at like six, but I'm off work by like one or two o'clock in the afternoon on pacific stand.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's not bad at all, man.
• 1:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's that's that's blue collar.
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, right there, right now, right?
• 1:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's nice, that's nice.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Also, I don't know what's happening with our camera situation right now, but I feel like I'm lower than normal.
• 1:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do I look lower than normal?
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: No, I don't know.
• 1:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: I feel I feel short.
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I am short.
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I feel short recording this, which I feel like I shouldn't have to feel like that.
• 1:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: But, you know, it's okay.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: It is what it is.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, good to be with you, man.
• 1:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: about fun stuff to talk about today got listener requests to stuff talk about today which is always enjoyable and always fun.
• 1:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but, uh, oh, making the making the anons mad over on the Twitter.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.
• 2:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 2:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 2:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Making them man.
• 2:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: Basically, compared anon accounts to those people that, uh, church hop because, uh, you know, the churches are quote unquote compromise, but it's really they just don't want to.
• 2:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: be held accountable and strangely enough, you know, who has, who is, who is, I would say coming against me the hardest on that, on that post, who is the anons.
• 2:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Just shows I'm right.
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, Jack, we got stuff to do, my friend.
• 2:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: We got feathers to ruffle, Jimmie's to wrestle all those gummy worms to stir all those good things, but I would not be a reformatory episode without our best segment.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Probably the best segment that we've ever done on this podcast.
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that was constructed or thought up of.
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: That is
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: And those are the time you've all been waiting for.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: The homiday broadcast presents Don't forget to eat your instant grams.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: With your host, Josh Loftus, on Jack Mary.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: And remember kids, it's not heresy if you believe it's hard enough.
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is, don't forget to eat your instant grams and remember kids.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: Not heresy if you believe it's hard enough.
• 3:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's how it works.
• 3:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like I've got to sit up.
• 3:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like I've got to like.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: there.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: That didn't help.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: That didn't help at all.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's okay.
• 3:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know it.
• 3:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just going to I'm going to not be so self conscious.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, Jack, we've got some funny ones for you today.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: This first one, I don't really have a context for this.
• 3:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just going to play it for you.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and we'll just laugh about it together.
• 3:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, it came across the feed and it made me laugh.
• 4:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I thought, you know what, not every Instagram needs a point, right?
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't, it doesn't need to have some serious point every single time.
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes we can just have some to laugh and that's what this one is.
• 4:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: There you go.
• 4:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: to help you experience God's presence in your life in a very real way.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Calborate Tabernacle is committed to reaching connecting and discipling the city of Indianapolis.
• 4:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're thankful again that you joined us.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna have a baptism so that you're able to stick around for that.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: We hope that you have a blessed week and that this power that you've experienced here tonight in this service goes with you on for your life.
• 4:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: God's blessings in Jesus' name.
• 4:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Be blessed.
• 4:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Looks like some rejected Charlie Brown dance from Charlie Brown Chris.
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: So for those that are listening and not watching, first off, we have like this like NFL sideline like reporter.
• 4:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: They like, you make a church just have reporters now.
• 4:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Dude, I don't know.
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: I feel like he's a mega church sideline reporter like they're up in the booth.
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, well, that was a really good sermon from Pastor Dave today.
• 5:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: We've actually got some action done on the field down to you Chris and this guy pops up.
• 5:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: right, but in the past, this guy is delivering like this, you know, sideline commentary.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: for what looks like ESPN, you have in the balcony, that's behind the guy talking.
• 5:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's an empty balcony, ex, dude.
• 5:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, Dimash, he's like, one dude.
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's like, so up there, just absolutely haven't the time, his life.
• 5:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Holy Spirit is obviously hitting this guy just right, that turned him into something gotten Charlie Brown down.
• 5:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: Jesus, he is up there just a little isn't it?
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here tonight, in this service, go with you on through your life, got blessing in Jesus' name.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Dude, that's so great, I love it.
• 5:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like the most the most hardcore Harlem shake.
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: I do these.
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's having a good time.
• 6:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Dude He's having a great time.
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna we're gonna head on to our next one here This one.
• 6:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, dude.
• 6:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: This one was hard to get through and I'm gonna boy I'm gonna play it for you right now.
• 6:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Here you go, gosh
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we feel distant from God, and that can be for the scariest feeling, and it feels like so far away from God.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Today it would be impossible to find our way back.
• 6:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: All I want to remind you is that when you feel distant from God, it's you turning away.
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: God is always here.
• 6:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: God will always be here.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: No matter how far we feel, how much bad things we've done, God is always open with open arms.
• 6:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And all we have to do, turn around.
• 6:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Is this the furry ministry going on?
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: So we have we have some sage advice from a man Dressed as a coyote with a batman with a vinsured batman shirt We are getting we are getting we we've transcended jack into Furry christ christendum.
• 7:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my you now have furry evangelists on Instagram spread in the good word
• 7:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: through their furry mask.
• 7:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't really have a commentary on this one that I can say probably on air.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm saying, I'm going to leave this for you.
• 7:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: We'll do for the, for the pod like this for a second.
• 7:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: These are not the type of individuals that I would be comfortable with serving in children's ministry.
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: How about that for a second?
• 7:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's not bad.
• 7:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's absolutely correct.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's pretty good.
• 7:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's a good segue.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's not bad.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's not bad.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'll take it.
• 7:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not not the best segue I've ever had, but you know, I'll take it.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 7:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: We are talking about children's church today.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Kids in church.
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: This is a topic that we have covered before in the earlier days of Jack and I do in the reformatory, but per our last episode talking about the churches closing right for the last Sunday of the New Year.
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: we actually got a couple messages from a couple different listeners actually asking not not asking but uh uh wanting us to talk about uh children
• 8:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: in church right because one of the main reasons that churches who did close give was to give their staff a break and often that those staff definitely include individuals that are working you know in Sunday school children's ministry and things like that that's usually where you need the most staffing because
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, especially if you're a larger church, you're needing two, three, four people per classroom bare minimum.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's a lot of people every Sunday to staff.
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 9:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's where a lot of the staffing comes from in those instances.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: So it obviously brought up.
• 9:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, one solution to that would be to just not have children's church to not have Sunday school.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 9:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: And that be a solution to your quote unquote staffing problems.
• 9:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: And a couple people reached out and asked our thoughts on that.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I did, you know, I threw them the past step that we did, but I, you know what, I thought it'd bear repeating because
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: It is something that comes up often and it is something that I think every church deals with in its own different ways.
• 9:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I know Jack and I even have different backgrounds and how our churches do it is different.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's worth talking about.
• 9:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, we're going to do that today because I think that we can at least at least for our own positions, provide some clarity on the positions that we hold and what our churches do.
• 10:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think there is one right and biblical, you know, path, right.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have my preferences, of course, and we'll get into those later.
• 10:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: But if your church has Sunday school, or if your church is family integrated as they call it where the kids are actually in service, right?
• 10:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I don't think one is right and biblical in the other is in sin, right?
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: I, we're not, we can't go that far.
• 10:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: Croscription doesn't speak to that, right?
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that there are pros and cons to both positions, and we can get into those a little bit.
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: But Jack, I want to, I want to feed, I want to, I want to get ahead of that first and be very careful, not to obviously call out one is being biblical and one is being sin as
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: some do in this in this top.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: So some will take it so far on one end and say, well, if you're not providing things for the children, then you're abdicating in your role on that as sin.
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I see people on the other side saying, no, if you're if you are giving up your role to lead your your children to people in Sunday school, you're abdicating and children should be in service.
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: And if you're not doing that, then you're in sin.
• 11:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Both of those positions, I would say, are wrong.
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't think you can, I don't think this is a sin issue here.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 11:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a preference and a conscience issue, depending on the church.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: But one to get out ahead of that first before we get into what our preferences would be and where we come from.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I, you know, like I said, Jack and I come from different backgrounds and different different places on this.
• 11:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think it prides some good balance.
• 11:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: So,
• 11:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: in service or Sunday school.
• 11:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: Where do you fall, and you have to pick one, otherwise people will roast you.
• 12:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm kidding.
• 12:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, honestly, we do it in a way right now where it's kind of both.
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
• 12:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we do it in a way where if we have five weeks, five lords days on that fifth lords day, like we don't have, I think we only have a nursery, I think, and something else.
• 12:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: So for more smaller kids, maybe,
• 12:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so yeah, I mean, you could do it in what you could do.
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: I have a couple different ways.
• 12:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that it's important to say like this is where I think liberty of the conscience does come into play.
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we talked about not canceling the Lord's day service.
• 12:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's not a liberty of conscience issue.
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's just, that's just, that's a straight up.
• 12:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: You should meet on the Lord's day like stop, stop trying to cancel your services because you want to run your church like a CEO business.
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so, I mean, I think for this, this is always going to be hard because I think one element to it is, you know, we want our kids to learn and that's good.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: We want our kids to learn with their parents and that's good.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: or we want our kids to be contextually learning together with their friends from other members of our church.
• 13:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: And that's good too.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think we do it.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, my church does it in a way where, you know, if there's too many Lord's days, Lord's Day Sundays in a month, we'll kind of take the rest of those and say, hey, if
• 13:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: if your kids are not in nursery or I think the other one is maybe cave through second or cave through first.
• 13:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember pre-cate through first.
• 13:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Then they're going to be sitting in with us.
• 13:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, and, you know, we try and equip parents for that time and we've done it the last, I remember the last half year we did it a few times and I thought it was fine to be quite honest.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do I, am I all for like, let's go full steam and just integrate everybody.
• 14:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I think it's the, I think it's the balance that we have in that time.
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: That helps that is a discipleship opportunity for parents as well too.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, I think as many kind of cracks and reps as, you know, the whole church gets at that, I think it betters them.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I honestly can't pass judgment.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe on a church, I think you do.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think you guys do full integration, is that correct?
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, so I, we have it a little different.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, obviously, I disagree with you and your heretic, right?
• 14:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, like that's, that's
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, we're this podcast used to go right?
• 14:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's over folks.
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not that six years enough that let's think it.
• 14:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: I knew it.
• 14:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's the kids, man.
• 14:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: They got us.
• 14:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 14:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: But yes, yeah, stands your question.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: We do.
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: We are we are integrated family integrated ad for Deamer.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 15:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I mean, I think both, I, I think it just depends what, I mean, we have enough facilities that we can do that with.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Every church may be not be the size.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it really comes down to liberty of a conscience when it comes down to leaders leading correctly.
• 15:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you have a bigger church that is very younger family oriented you're probably going to have a children's ministry plus like I said some hybrid times with those kids are sitting in with you if you don't necessarily if you have a smaller church but you have families and you don't have a place in which you can do a minister if you don't want to do children's ministry then you're going to go fit you're going to go integration right so I think part of it is
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: know, and I think churches can change that over times too.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't have it seen.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't heard of a church going from completely doing children's ministry, going into full family integration and the other way around before.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure there's probably case studies of this somewhere.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, so Redeemer is one of them.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, Redeemer and and and I agree with you.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's rare.
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think I think it's I think I think we are kind of a kind of a white whale in that regard.
• 16:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: But Redeemer when they first started they did they had you know full blown children's ministry, right?
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: And you know I don't I this was before I was an elder there.
• 16:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know how far up the ages went.
• 16:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: I can't answer that.
• 16:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I know it was more than just a nursery.
• 16:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right, but then kind of through, you know, you know, becoming 1689 and all and all that stuff, right, they came to the family in the integrated conviction, right, which is I think where I would fall personally, but again, I think that, you know, like Jack said the conversation last week.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: we would not say leaves much room for nuance, right?
• 17:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: We weren't a fan of the nuance police there.
• 17:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think this conversation requires nuance because we aren't talking about a sin issue here.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're talking about things like Jack said very correctly.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's a liberty of conscience issue depending on your context and your convictions, right?
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: So we got to remember that.
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I do think that there I have seen
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and, and, and I know they're out there.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: I have seen many churches do the Sunday School thing very well.
• 17:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, and it's not, uh, simply a daycare.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's one of my critiques for a lot of Sunday school is it's just a way for mom and dad to, you know, put their kids off into a room for a little bit so that they can, you know, listen to the sermon and then they'll, they'll, they'll reconvene.
• 17:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: the best children's ministries have at their core, the equipping of the parents to lead the family well, right?
• 17:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: Not that you don't teach the kids, right?
• 17:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not that you don't put effort into your curriculum and you're making sure that the kids are hearing the gospel and learning about who Jesus is while they're under your care.
• 18:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: But the best children's ministry understands that they
• 18:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: are not and should not and cannot be the primary disciples of those children.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: It has to be the parents.
• 18:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right?
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, a good children's ministry does much more equipping than it does babysitting.
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: We have to and not a lot of churches do that.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: And that's one of my main critiques against, I don't even want to say against.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: But one of my main critiques with the children's church
• 18:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, there's churches that are doing it really well, and there's churches that I think are are doing that correctly.
• 18:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: I could say from my angle, so there was a time in period where I did serve in our children's ministry for the older kids, like for the 34th graders, 4th graders, 4th graders, I can't remember.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was on the, they were on the older side of things, right?
• 19:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I could tell you that there were times in which we had really good conversations,
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: of a time of shoot.
• 19:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: There are some home school kids who are learning Greek and I would throw a Greek word at them to write on the board and it would be a good time of equipping that way.
• 19:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: It would be a good time of asking questions of asking their friends questions as well too about the faith or about a question that they might have.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it was a really good time.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: I could say
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: There was really a mentality of not just having kids being babysat, but really showing them the through line of the gospel and what you like.
• 19:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: So when you have that going on in your children's ministry, I would say keep doing that.
• 19:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't just be the babysitters, be it away in which
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: you're admonishing and teaching those kids that there is a big meta narrative of the Bible it's not only Jesus, but it's more than that sometimes.
• 20:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I think that every time that I've
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: taught, or every time that I was in the older kids' class, I felt like it wasn't just a time where kids got to slack off and play with their friends.
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was a time where they got to ask questions.
• 20:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: They were being equipped.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: They were being taught scripture from, you know, story by story.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, but yet again, that doesn't take away from what I think that some churches do when they do family integration.
• 20:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's a lesser form of worship or even ways in which that you're trying to steward kids.
• 21:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And help them understand the gospel too.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so, so let's hop into, up into kind of the, the family integration side and got how we do things at redeemer.
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: One, one thing that I want to say before I hop into why I prefer family integrated over Sunday school is, even with the family integrated, I am at, I am in full support of a nursery.
• 21:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think nurseries are so helpful for moms, especially when they have newborns, right?
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes the mom needs that place where she can go nurse, she can go change the baby, she can go take care of the kid.
• 21:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Having a space dedicated for that, I think is really, really helpful.
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: and I do not think that that negates or somehow disqualifies a church from being family integrated.
• 21:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: I know some people go that far and say, well, I mean, if you leave the sanctuary, then you're not family integrated anymore.
• 21:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think these guys need to chill.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: They need to have some nuanced right and understand that, you know what?
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: We got to we got to provide a space here for for moms to be able to do what they need to do during service, right?
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: I do think that even in that you should have some intentionality and some care for those moms.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: We should have obviously a space that's dedicated for them with everything that they need in it.
• 22:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I also like pumping the sermon in there so they don't miss out.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.
• 22:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: So many moms, especially in reformed culture.
• 22:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 22:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Moms are usually the ones that are taking care of the crying kids, right?
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: When they're getting fussy.
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: We have started to do that.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to think when we started to do that.
• 22:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was last year right around springtime.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 22:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think some any it was around it was shortly after the time that we just moved into the school building that we're at.
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah.
• 22:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I think that's really helpful.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's that's a way that a church can care for the moms in that in that situation is pump the sermon in there so that they're not missing out on the word being preached just because they're taking care of their kid, right?
• 23:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's important to do so I would also say this.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
• 23:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you are a church that does communion weekly
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: I have done this many a time.
• 23:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: I have done this a few times and I've seen my other friends do this as well too, where if they're serving, if their wives are serving in the nursery, they will bring them communion.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's there's stuff like that where you can have it integrated where they're not missing out on the normal means of grace there absolutely absolutely so so the way our church does it is we have we have a space dedicated.
• 23:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: moms with young kids where they can go, right?
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: And when it's time to take the Lord's supper, everyone just comes out of the nursery.
• 23:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, that's going to be different depending on the context of your church and what your building looks like and all and all that stuff.
• 23:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: But but we do we do gather everyone together for that.
• 24:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: The reason that I would say this, there's lots of reasons why I prefer, and I'm convictionally family integrated when it comes to the Lord's Day service, but I'd say the main one for me is that I think there is so much value in having the kids in service for a number of things.
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: One, this is someone who is coming from someone who
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: work with kids a whole lot right i i i i was a children's pastor for a child cancer a lot smarter than people think they are
• 24:44
  [SPEAKER_04]: and they are sponges and they will pick up on things that you, you are like, where did you hear that, right?
• 24:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: I, there has been many times where I have been amazed at what this kid who I didn't think was listening at all recalls from the service, recalls from the sermon, recalls from the songs being sung
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: And you're like, you got that in our Lord's Day service.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: And you're recalling that, right?
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's wonderful.
• 25:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that that starts a lot earlier than a lot of folks think that it does, okay?
• 25:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that that's valuable.
• 25:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Second,
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's extremely valuable to the kids to see, even if, even if you don't think that your kid is paying attention at all, right?
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: They're on the floor with their coloring pages.
• 25:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we provide, we provide stuff for kids to do during service.
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: We provide them some colorings and some like, you know, you know, very, very dumbed down notes.
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, what did the pastor?
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, talk about today.
• 25:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, things like that, right?
• 25:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: We provide those.
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Even if you don't think your kid is listening at all, right?
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: They're on the floor, they're coloring, they're messing with their brothers and sisters.
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: be encouraged because I believe that that repetition of the family gathering together as as a unit on Sunday morning on the Lord's day that pattern of behavior over and over and over again has such a benefit to the kids that they grow up knowing even if they're not paying attention to the sermon, they grow up knowing and understanding huh Sunday mornings
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sunday mornings we're all here together.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like school when I'm with my friends.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's not like, you know, it's not like, you know, it's not like, you know, going to the park where I meet my friends and we color and have gold fish crackers and all this stuff right.
• 26:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sunday morning we are all together and I see kids my age and I see old people and I see people my parents age.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: I see my parents friends and we're all together doing the exact same thing.
• 26:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're singing together.
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're listening to this guy up front talk together.
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're getting up.
• 27:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: I see my parents get up and they go get this juice and this cracker, right?
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: What's all that about?
• 27:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: It starts to become a pattern and training the mind early to show those kids, huh?
• 27:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: The Lord says different.
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: Something about Sunday is different.
• 27:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Something about Sunday is important.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Why do we make this a priority every single week?
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: What makes this morning different than tomorrow morning or yesterday morning?
• 27:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think you get that.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: like distilled like into a shot that's just shot into your veins with family integrated service.
• 27:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: Now, I think that that is possible with Sunday school.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think you can have a local church focus and things like that, right?
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 27:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: And parents, I think it requires, again, my opinion, but I think it requires a lot more diligence on the on the parent side to to make that happen.
• 28:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I just find family integrated to do that so naturally, and they grow up, I think, with a greater appreciation and understanding of the importance of the Lord's day and how it's different.
• 28:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's my case for family integrated.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Again, it's a conscience thing.
• 28:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think you can do both well.
• 28:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think you can do both poorly.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I think there's a lot greater of responsibility on the family integrated side for parents to parent their kids.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, again, uh, we, you know, we love kids in service, right?
• 28:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I mean, as a preacher, I've been doing it long enough where I'm not distracted by kids being kids, right?
• 28:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: you know, the baby crying or the kids being fussy or, you know, mom having to get up or a dad having to get up to discipline or take care of their kid in the back.
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: I don't get distracted by that anymore.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: However, I will say that if it is your conviction of a church as a church to have a family integrated service, part of that is discipling the parents to
• 29:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Um, let's have some let's show some respect for our brothers and sisters around us and then the person that's up there preaching who spend a lot of time preparing that let's show some respect and be in quiet.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: And again, there's grace here.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's nuance here.
• 29:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 29:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're not going to call people out because of their fussy kid.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course not that would be unloving and weird.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
• 29:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: be watchful and intentional with their kids in a family integrated service then obviously in a Sunday school where the kids aren't with with their folks, right?
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: So there's pros and cons and you can do both really well and you can do both poorly if you are a family integrated church and that's your conviction, but the families like they don't parent, they just let their kids do whatever they want.
• 30:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: And they don't there's no structure there.
• 30:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: There's no parenting there in the service.
• 30:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's going to be trouble.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and that's actually going to be really Potentially distracting whoever's preaching as well as anybody that comes into your church that wants to
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: join that church, maybe they're not in that same stage of life.
• 30:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: If they're having to constantly compete with trying to listen to what the pastor say and versus the undisciplined kids around them, yeah, that's going to be a factor, right?
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: So things to consider things to disciple through and to not let be so awkward that it's not part of the conversation, because I think that's often what happens.
• 30:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: I will say this.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: One of our, when we were doing evidences of God's grace at our Christmas party, this past December, one of our main couples who serves in kids ministry and the husband serves kind of on security and the wife does more of the kids ministry stuff.
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: They're younger couple, kind of in their mid-late
• 31:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: I would say late 20s or late 30s maybe.
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember sure, but he was saying I have never he's like at my previous church I always had to go to those parents constantly over and over again.
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: Why is your kid doing this?
• 31:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: Why is your kid doing this?
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 31:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: He goes, I've never had to come up to any of you in this room and tell you how to do and tell you how to parent.
• 31:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's nice.
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: What did I say?
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for making my job easy.
• 31:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's like, I think that's always a good sign.
• 31:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, get a temperature.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: If you're going to do, if you're going to do kids ministry, I think part of it is getting a temperature check.
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: of your volunteers, having enough volunteers so that they don't burn out, having a good, either director or group of leaders over that, whether it be decends or maybe there's a family pastor who oversees the kids' ministry as well too if you do it that way if you're structured that way as a church.
• 32:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: But make sure that you're like getting a barometer check on the parents as well too because you're seeing
• 32:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: you're seeing actions from kids.
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Are those actions being learned at home or are they rebelling or what's going on there?
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
• 32:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a way in which that you can love other members of your church by saying, are you guys having problems like parenting this kid?
• 32:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's I don't think that's out of line to say anything like that if you're in a kids ministry environment.
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: No, no.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's part of living in community and if you're going to become a member of the local church, I do think that you I see you open yourself up to that right now.
• 32:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think it can be done poorly.
• 32:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think we see it done poorly a lot, but I think you need to have some thick skin and some humility to be like, Hey, you know, little
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Timmy over there just hit, you know, what's her face and then he's laughing about it.
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: We got to take care of this, you know, the independent pastor have you seen that clip, where he's just calling out people right from the pew.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, you up then, you up in the sound making your kingdom up there.
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 33:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's what that is horrible.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's horrible.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, don't do it like that, right?
• 33:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I do think.
• 33:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think parents can often, this is just getting into a parenting up at this point.
• 33:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think parents can often be pretty precious with their kids, right?
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I get it.
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: I get it.
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's your kids, right?
• 33:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't want your kids to be, you know, fussy.
• 33:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: You don't want them to be misbehaving because I think often that people take that as a reflection on their parenting, right?
• 33:49
  [SPEAKER_04]: And here's the thing.
• 33:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes it is.
• 33:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes it isn't.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: It depends on the situation depends on the kid, right?
• 33:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that both of these systems, if that's what what you want to call it, to the the Cynesco model model, Cynesco model or the Family Integration model, require humility on all parts and the understanding that we want what's best for each other.
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 34:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes that means like, hey, you know, I noticed that, you know, you let your
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: uh... you know run around the sanctuary you know during service let's let's let's maybe you know work on you know not having that be a thing right
• 34:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sometimes it requires hard conversations, but we're part of the family of God, and we want what's best for each other, and we should have mutual humility and respect to where those conversations can happen.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: And we shouldn't have anything in our life that's too precious to be able to be called out, right?
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I think you get that a lot when you start bringing people's kids into the conversation.
• 34:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's where grace and humility and nuance is really important in these conversations, but yeah, so there's a couple different
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: models for you and every church is going to do it different and every church is going to do it You know better or worse depending on how the structure is but but yeah, I'm a fan of I'm a fan of the family integrated man I really am I think there's no there.
• 35:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't I don't I don't think I've ever said this on our podcast before But I'm okay agnostic when it comes to
• 35:30
  [SPEAKER_04]: You just you know are you are you pan are you pan millennial when it comes to a to the chill Pinch pen pen miss pants.
• 35:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna panic real.
• 35:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's all gonna pan out So that just tells me Jack that you hate kids and your hair take that's what that tells me Well there we go well Jack my friend we could go on, but why don't we why don't we call that a wrap and sure why don't you get us out of here, but
• 35:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you appreciate Josh and I and our not only our takes, but how we focused their formatory on just making the local church central to the believer's life and having these episodes revolve around a real world thing that will happen on a lords day or happen throughout the week.
• 36:16
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• 36:40
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• 36:53
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• 37:00
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• 37:04
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• 37:10
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• 37:13
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• 37:14
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• 37:16
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• 37:20
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• 37:22
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• 37:34
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• 37:34
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• 37:37
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• 37:42
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• 37:51
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• 37:52
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• 38:01
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• 38:20
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• 38:56
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