Latest / The Curve / RTC93: Microsoft – good investment or amazing deep fake?

Transcript

RTC93: Microsoft – good investment or amazing deep fake? · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to our ethical mini-series, so we're doing this with Pathfinder and it's the second time we've done it
0:06
And you may be thinking especially if you're new to the curve
0:08
Why are we talking about ethical stuff at the same time as talking about money?
0:12
But the thing is they actually really intertwined you can cut your overall yearly carbon footprint just by switching your Kiwi
0:19
Severe funds to provider that's climate positive and in this mini-series
0:23
We're going to be discussing our values with relation to how they impact our investment decisions
0:27
So if you're working to leave things better than how you found them, then you might want to check out Pathfinder
0:33
They actually tilt their portfolio towards positive investment themes so things like renewable energy, community housing
0:39
And they grow your welfare good investments in areas like health care, water infrastructure, technology, lots of good stuff like that
0:46
Pathfinder have one mind for money's award for best ethical Kiwi's own provider
0:50
Three years!
0:53
So for more information about Pathfinder and the work that they do, you can head to Pathfinder dot Kiwi
0:58
Pathfinder Acet Management Limited is the issuer of the Pathfinder Kiwis ever plan and Pathfinder investment funds
1:04
Product disclosure statements for their offers are available at Pathfinder dot Kiwi
1:10
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know to be better with your money
1:15
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe
1:21
I don't really get the saying
1:23
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good
1:26
You know what I'm saying?
1:28
Are you on the script?
1:30
It's basically like saying investing in finance can be boring but it totally doesn't need to be
1:36
Okay, okay, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot
1:40
Okay, the vegetables are good for you
1:42
It's the brownie recipe
1:44
Okay, we got there, we got there, okay
1:46
You've really got a finance way
1:49
This is a joke
1:50
Okay, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager
1:54
Where I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could
1:57
And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could
1:59
No, it's so not the joke they can
2:02
Okay, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us
2:05
Because together we really can raise the curve
2:10
So so can I really excited to welcome Alison George into the studio today
2:16
So this chat is all around responsible investing
2:19
And it's something that we've spoken about many times before
2:22
But we just think it's worthy of more and more chats
2:26
Because it is a pretty confusing space to be honest
2:29
There's no black and white answer
2:31
With investing it is very much, you know whenever you buy a share
2:35
Someone's selling that to you
2:37
So it is I guess a debate or a personal decision about why you're making that investment
2:42
When you bring ethics into it and values that really creates more debate
2:47
Which is good
2:48
So we wanted to bring in another expert to have a bit of a chat with us
2:53
And to debate a stock with me
2:56
Which was pretty interesting
2:57
But it's really awesome to have another finance girl in the room
3:01
So Alison George, she's got over 20 years of investment experience
3:05
And specifically in this responsible investment space
3:09
So she is an absolute guru
3:11
She is head of impact and ethics at Australian ethical
3:16
Which is a super large fund manager in Australia
3:19
She's been there just over six months
3:21
And her role is essentially to ensure that Australian ethical investments
3:26
And things they buy really have a positive outcome for animals, people and the planets
3:32
So we are super excited to start this chat and we'll jump in now
3:37
Welcome to the podcast Alison
3:39
We're very excited to have you on and also
3:41
I don't know, I feel weirdly excited about the idea that Vick has like a bit of competition
3:46
So Vick obviously is in New Zealand particularly
3:50
You know, I would say this shining star of the finance industry
3:53
Oh, I don't believe
3:54
No, it's true
3:55
There's like not that many women in the industry in New Zealand
3:58
Alison, like is this something that you experience in your career
4:02
Have there been lots of women entering the last sort of five years
4:05
Or have you felt kind of siloed as well from like a gender perspective
4:08
Yeah, there have been some amazing female role models in the industry
4:13
But it still is that gender representation has a long way to go
4:17
I feel like finance is lagging behind the industries that we look at and invest in
4:22
There's so many of them are making progress
4:24
And finance really needs to catch up
4:27
I would love to know Alison, what do you define as ethical investing
4:32
If you were to explain this to a child or somebody who has no idea what investing is
4:38
Or ethical investing is
4:40
What's a really simple way that you could explain it to somebody
4:43
It's a good question and I do have kids
4:46
Sometimes I think I use them as the people that I'm thinking about when I'm trying to explain things
4:50
So I mean, it's about making money the right way
4:54
It's about caring where the money comes from
4:57
For us, at Australian ethical, we think about it as using money for good for people, planet and animals
5:06
That is so powerful and it's so easy to understand
5:09
I think there's like a real mindset shift that is happening
5:13
While the younger generation are selling to wake up to the idea of like what even is investing
5:18
In the idea of investing in companies, like giving a company my money thinking
5:22
It's then going to help them to do more amazing things
5:25
I think what's really scary at the moment with all of the things that are happening from the conflicts to global warming
5:31
There's so many displaced people in the world
5:34
It's really hard to feel like as an individual you can make a difference
5:39
You can have any kind of impact beyond what these giant corporations and big politicians are making decisions on
5:46
However, something that we can do is invest our money as you say for good
5:51
It's just so simple, you can invest it for good
5:54
And I do think that just a concept of like okay
5:58
It's not just as simple as where I spend my money i.e. if I go and buy a coffee I can use a takeaway keep cup
6:04
Or if I buy a piece of clothing I can buy something that has been sustainably made
6:09
It's using ethical fabrics, the people that are done aren't being abused in horrible factories
6:13
But then you can zoom out and say okay you own a product from that business
6:17
But you can also own and help that entire business grow not just from a consumer lens
6:22
And that's what I think we're really trying to educate on at the curve
6:25
And it's a really empowering, exciting thing to look at the world and be like
6:29
Fuck it's scary at the moment
6:31
There's so much going on and I don't know how I can help
6:33
But actually you can really help and there's companies doing really cool things
6:37
That mean that your money can go a long way
6:40
Rather than just keeping it in the bank or investing in companies
6:43
I don't really like what they're doing
6:45
I couldn't agree more
6:46
I think a lot of people are not interested in finance
6:49
Because it seems boring, that example that you gave just then of the money in the bank
6:54
And it's slowly growing
6:56
It doesn't have the color of the financial markets
6:59
I find all of the different businesses and what they're doing and the places that they're doing it
7:05
So interesting and each of them is a different tale
7:09
And when you get under the hood of those investments and understand just how different they are
7:14
Some of the things that are being done by businesses are really exciting
7:19
That they're going to be bringing out new technologies that are positive for the environment
7:23
Or finding new ways of recycling waste
7:26
And all of that happens through businesses around the world
7:30
It's all financed by somebody
7:33
I have to also be the grinch here
7:35
Because I agree with everything that you're saying
7:38
So I've announced that I completely agree
7:40
But I also think that ethical investing has also opened this can of worms of confusion for a lot of people
7:47
Because what is ethical for me might not be ethical for you and vice versa
7:52
And you've got a lot of companies as well, a lot of funds
7:55
You know wanting to get access to this way of investing
7:58
Get access to these investors that have money that want to invest this way
8:02
And so they dress up in what is it the green authors?
8:06
Yeah, they dress up and try and trick us and we fall for it
8:11
And lo and behold, we don't realize but the majority of their business is investing in oil and gas
8:16
And it just creates another layer of confusion or research or documentation or analysis that people will have to do
8:25
And every day investors don't have time for that
8:27
We're trying to break it down to make it less confusing
8:29
And then we throw on this layer of another confusing layer
8:32
And also if you buy products from a shop, you might look at the packaging and think this looks really great
8:39
And it's using natural ingredients and it's used all sort of cyclable packaging
8:44
But it's like there's also fine print when it comes to products
8:46
Like they might use 2% of recycled plastic
8:49
Or they might use natural ingredients that have been in diagrams with the ground
8:53
There's so many nuances when it comes to products and greenwashing or fashion and greenwashing
8:59
And I guess what you're trying to say is that that can then translate into the finance world too
9:04
So when people think that they're being like, oh my god, I'm doing good with my money
9:07
They might not actually be
9:08
Or they're investing in a company that they think is doing well for the planet for example
9:12
And that's because that company has highlighted that one percent of their business
9:18
To investors to seem like they're doing good
9:22
Yeah, I remember there's this one company that we invested in
9:24
And it was effectively a mining services company
9:28
But a portion of their business was to help gas and there was something else
9:34
Anyway, that was all three presentations was just this tiny part of the business
9:39
And I remember getting to the end and I was like, so you haven't even talked about the 98% of your business
9:44
That is going to move the needle more than this 2%
9:47
Yeah, and it's just that that's what companies do because effectively at the end of the day
9:51
The CEOs are salespeople
9:53
They're trying to sell their business to investors
9:55
And so they're going to highlight what's going to sell the most
9:57
Yeah, that's right. So when we're thinking about what's an ethical investment
10:02
We kind of focus in on the core activities
10:05
So what's the main thing that they do?
10:08
I think most businesses are a mix of positive and negatives
10:12
So we're looking at what are the good things that flow from that activity
10:17
And then are their negatives that outweigh that positive?
10:21
So we look at what they do, but also how they do it
10:25
And we're kind of balancing those pluses and minuses trying to understand
10:29
Is this a net positive business?
10:32
Is the main big thing that they do good?
10:36
And then there's some small problems that hopefully they're working on
10:40
And we can encourage progress on
10:42
Or is it the other way around?
10:44
That actually this is a big big bad with a little bit of window dressing on the side
10:48
Around some positive programs that aren't really shifting the scales
10:53
To where it needs to be
10:55
I mean, what about like a pharmaceutical company?
10:58
I always find them quite polarizing
11:00
I think they get a bad rap because some of them test on animals
11:06
And they're not completely ethical, but then on the flip side
11:10
We would be without a lot of people in this world if there hadn't been vaccines, medications
11:16
So you kind of in that sense have to take the good with the best in my opinion
11:21
But my opinion might be different to soft, so it might be different to Ellison
11:24
So yeah
11:25
That's a good example
11:27
And maybe mining companies are another
11:29
When you think about the kind of resources that we need
11:33
Maybe the resources that we need to address climate change in the future
11:36
So things like lithium and nickel and copper
11:40
They're going to be really important minerals to make sure that we can decarbonize the planet
11:45
But at the same time like you can't mine things out of the ground without having negative impacts
11:50
You can try to minimise them
11:52
But you're going to disturb land
11:54
You're going to affect communities
11:56
You're going to use water
11:58
And so how do you weigh those two
12:01
The positives of being able to have the minerals we need to address climate change
12:05
And on the other hand, it's going to be some degree of impact in every case
12:10
That's a good point
12:12
Okay, at this point of the conversation I would like to introduce our case study
12:15
Which we're going to do today
12:17
Which is essentially a chance for the two of you to battle it out till death
12:22
No
12:23
No, so you're basically I think that this whole conversation and what you've both highlighted really well
12:29
Is the idea that it's nuanced
12:31
There is not necessarily a tick of approval for good and a cross for the bad in terms of companies
12:37
Which is so incredibly frustrating
12:41
But coming back to that solve
12:43
I think yes you say there's a lot of confusion with ethical investing
12:46
There's no box that says this is good, this is bad
12:48
It's the same with just if you removed ethical investing
12:51
It's just if you looked at a company from an investment point of view
12:55
There is no tick or cross, this is a good investment, this is bad
12:59
Everyone has different investing time horizons and investing goals
13:03
Returns that they want to get
13:05
So even if there was a box tick from an ethical standpoint saying yes
13:09
This is a good one, this is a bad one
13:11
Then you overlay that with okay what about the investment return
13:14
And it's just every individual is so different
13:17
So whenever you're selling a stock or selling a share in a company
13:22
Someone else is buying that
13:23
So that's a fact that you're saying this is a bad investment
13:26
I don't want it anymore
13:28
So whenever you're transacting
13:30
You're having that debate with someone does that make sense?
13:33
Yes it makes sense
13:35
It's confusing, it was confusing
13:37
And now it's just got more confusing so sorry everyone
13:39
But we're going to try and make it less confusing
13:43
The whole point of this ethical miniseries with Pathfinder
13:45
Is to help you think about how you invest your money
13:48
With a relation to your own personal values
13:50
So just like the food that you eat
13:52
The people you surround yourself with
13:54
The way that you spend your money as a reflection of you as a person
13:57
But how you meant to know how to translate your values into the way that you invest
14:01
Well Pathfinder believes no one should have to choose between an ethical investment and a profitable one
14:06
So together we've created a quiz to help you figure out what kind of investor you are based on what you care about
14:12
It's actually very fun
14:14
So if you would like to find the quiz you can head to the show notes of this podcast
14:18
Pathfinder Acet Management Limited is the issuer of the Pathfinder Kiwis Ever Plan
14:22
And Pathfinder Investment Funds
14:24
Product disclosure statements for their offers are available at Pathfinder Dockywee
14:33
We're going to take a stock that Victoria is obsessed with
14:36
And when I say obsessed I reckon anyone that's a centrist podcast for a while
14:40
We'll be like it's Microsoft
14:43
Because this is one that just will not shut up about
14:48
And to be fair I get it now
14:50
Like I look at what they've done
14:52
She would always be like Alison just for context
14:56
For example Microsoft and I was like
14:58
I'm so bored come up with a new one
15:02
But I get it now
15:04
Anyway Vick is going to be against Microsoft as an investment
15:08
Just for argument sake
15:10
And Alison is going to be pro Microsoft
15:13
When it comes to investing ethically
15:16
So if this was like we were at school you know we were 15
15:20
This was debate club imagine me with one of those hammers
15:24
And I'm in between Alison's on the side of yes Microsoft and Vick's on the side of no Microsoft
15:30
From an ethical standpoint is this or is this not an ethical company?
15:34
So is everyone happy with their positions? Does everyone feel ready with their notes?
15:38
We're good to go
15:40
Let's do it!
15:42
Okay now before we get started
15:44
I'm going to set the scene as to what this company does for anyone that doesn't know
15:48
Essentially how they operate
15:50
And why maybe this is a conflicting stock whether or not it's ethical
15:54
Do you want to I mean I can take this one
15:56
I know a lot about Microsoft and so I could guess
15:58
Yeah can you actually I'd really appreciate that
16:00
So Microsoft so it's one of the world's most recognizable companies
16:06
Finally enough the name Micro and soft
16:08
It actually stands for micro processes
16:10
And software put together genius
16:12
And it was founded back in 1975 by two men
16:16
One which is probably a bit more well known than the other one which is Bill Gates
16:20
I'm in his friend Paul Allen
16:22
And Bill Gates was actually one of the youngest billionaires in the world about 30 years ago
16:27
And one thing I didn't actually realize
16:29
Went until I started researching Microsoft was that
16:32
Microsoft once saved Apple from bankruptcy
16:35
I saw the scenario notes and I thought that's really cool
16:39
Yeah Apple was on the brink of bankruptcy
16:41
Quite recent 1997
16:43
And Microsoft was like hey you know what here's 150 million
16:47
We could not even have Macbooks or iPhones or anything
16:51
But if it wasn't for Microsoft
16:53
And then Apple after that kind of took it to Microsoft with that mean marketing campaign
16:59
Where there was like Microsoft was the nerdy guy wearing a card again
17:03
Apple was the cool tech kind of creative guy
17:06
It's so true though
17:07
Oh I couldn't agree more of it because like the nerdy Microsoft
17:11
And I like to think of myself as the cool Apple
17:13
You don't know
17:15
You got any other facts you would like to add before we get into this thing
17:21
So today Microsoft is the second largest US company
17:25
That's just behind Apple
17:27
So Microsoft has nearly a $3 trillion market cap
17:31
The size of the company is nearly $3 trillion
17:35
And some products and services you might not know that it actually owns
17:39
So it has Windows which a lot of people probably know
17:41
And Microsoft Office but it also owns LinkedIn
17:43
It also owns Xbox
17:45
It also owns Azure which is its cloud platform
17:49
And Microsoft Teams
17:51
All kind of lame though don't you think like LinkedIn
17:55
Microsoft, Windows you know like it's very
17:59
It gives me old man vibes but anyway
18:01
Made 200 billion in revenue in 2022
18:05
And 80 billion dollars in profit
18:07
So it's for sure doing well
18:09
Now the way that this is going to work is I'm basically going to direct questions to you
18:13
Alison it also to work
18:15
There's no right or wrong I don't want the claw
18:17
Actually I do want the claws coming up
18:19
I want you both getting nice and passionate here
18:21
Alison I'm going to start with you
18:23
And your opinion is like the problem that this company is solving
18:27
What is Microsoft doing in a positive way to solve an issue for the world?
18:33
You know when you think about that list of things that Bitcoin is just outlining about the kinds of things that they've always done
18:39
It's always been in that productivity space
18:43
And that can seem a little bit boring as well
18:45
But it's actually what lets us all have a higher standard of living over time
18:51
The business world can be more efficient
18:53
Is that kind of economic engine of growth
18:57
And that maybe isn't enough to make an ethical company in and of itself
19:01
But it's also about what that means for people's lives
19:05
So you mentioned Microsoft Teams
19:07
Think back to COVID days
19:09
Teams was what enabled us as a business to keep on working
19:13
The fact that we could switch to video conference
19:17
And we could have a lot of things like that
19:19
That actually kept lots of important and essential services
19:23
Not just the finance industry
19:25
Running during that time period
19:27
And now it continues to connect
19:31
You know people that might otherwise be kind of cut out of the workforce
19:35
Because they live somewhere remote or maybe they have a disability
19:39
That ability to connect people and to give them livelihoods
19:43
I think that's a really empowering and important part of those technologies
19:47
That maybe gets lost behind the seeming boringness of
19:51
Oh well it's just the software that I used to do my job
19:55
That's such a point
19:57
And in your opinion what kind of problems is Microsoft creation
20:01
Well I think when you are connecting that many people
20:05
And have that many users
20:07
And have such a presence and a market dominance
20:11
That leads itself to having privacy concerns
20:15
Big data issues
20:17
And I think that you know we've seen
20:19
Microsoft come under kind of increasing pressure from shareholders
20:23
And employees actually
20:25
Over you know some of the contracts that it helps facilitate in terms of the military
20:29
In terms of government agencies that people might not agree with
20:33
So yes you connect people that might not have been connected before
20:37
But you also connect I guess and help facilitate bad people
20:39
And also it's contribution and it's investment in AI and artificial intelligence as well
20:47
I think it needs to be really careful in that space we've seen increasing
20:51
Concerns come out around AI and what that means for a world where
20:57
You know AI might not be used in the best ways in terms of
21:01
You were talking about conflicts before
21:03
In terms of your facilitating conflicts
21:05
In terms of I guess the bad ways that AI could help or we facilitating bad things
21:13
I don't fully follow that can you explain a bit more
21:15
So so Microsoft has invested a huge amount of money in AI
21:19
Right so they're kind of funding a lot of that innovation around artificial intelligence
21:25
When you say AI could be increasing conflicts or
21:29
Contributing to how so it could be sending fighter jets to war-torn regions
21:35
But how is what AI because it's data that's that's that's sending them
21:39
It's like using computers to help spy or break into gosh I don't know I don't know exact examples
21:45
But there's definitely don't want to help a lot of people
21:49
Because we're completely on opposite sides
21:51
But please Jeff and she's struggling
21:54
Microsoft has like facial recognition technology
21:58
Which has an AI driver behind it that you know you need that kind of big data ability to be able to recognize faces
22:06
And that can be used in prisons
22:09
That can be used by governments who want to keep tabs on certain people or certain types of people in their communities
22:18
Certain groups so they're the kinds of concerns that AI might raise
22:24
I suppose to make now the counter argument for that
22:28
It's to say you know Microsoft's a really big company or highly visible one with the money to invest in thinking about the right way to do AI
22:39
And so you know employ people who are thinking about ethics and where should the lines be drawn in the way that they use it
22:46
And they're getting a lot of scrutiny around that as well
22:50
Whereas a smaller company that maybe more of a cowboy on the fringes maybe doesn't have that big public brand that everybody knows
22:58
If it was those kind of groups that are working on AI I feel like the standards might be lower
23:04
So it's more the idea that because they're quite front facing and because they are such a big brand
23:09
You can't really get away with too much
23:12
That's going to be debatable because it would be public very quickly
23:15
Yeah exactly
23:17
Like are there any other things that you wanted to talk about when it comes to the problems that Microsoft are creating?
23:23
I think it's being a bully
23:25
Okay
23:27
elaborate please
23:29
I think it is squashing the little guys
23:33
By squashing I mean buying and bringing them into the Microsoft fold
23:37
It's all to create and retain this monopoly that it's got
23:41
It's buying its competitors it's buying this upcoming technology it's buying small companies
23:46
It's acquired I think over 200 companies in its lifespan
23:50
It acquired LinkedIn
23:52
It acquired Skype
23:54
It acquired Nokia actually
23:56
But those are all quite average brands aren't they?
23:59
Like we're like oh my god you've eaten sky
24:02
Nokia terrifying
24:04
I know but imagine what Skype and Nokia and LinkedIn could be if it hadn't been bought by Microsoft
24:09
Okay so they're kind of like the big animal that's eating all the small insects
24:14
Yeah and they're like not letting those insects grow and prosper
24:18
And turn into beautiful butterflies possibly
24:20
And because it's got 80 billion dollars of profit so it can buy these companies
24:24
And continue to get bigger and bigger and bigger
24:27
And I think it just almost stifles innovation and creativity
24:33
Because it just keeps eating these little companies
24:37
Okay and what about from an environmental standpoint
24:40
Is there anything around the amount of energy that AI uses or anything like that?
24:46
So there's over a billion PCs used now in homes and businesses worldwide
24:53
If you think of the fact that those need to be replaced every couple of years
24:57
You know where does that technology go?
25:00
How is it recycled? How is it used?
25:02
It kind of comes back to consumerism as well in terms of technology, technology dependence
25:07
The more stuff we have, the more stuff we have to get rid of
25:10
And the more that impacts the planet
25:12
And don't even get me started on the amount of big data
25:15
And you know the data center space that they need for Microsoft Azure
25:19
Which is their cloud products
25:20
So they've got about I think it's 24% market share in the cloud space
25:25
Amazon's number one at about about 30%.
25:28
That takes a lot of computing power, a lot of energy
25:31
And yeah, they are big, big, big consumers of energy
25:35
Because of data consumption
25:36
Alison, would you like to pop in with anything there?
25:39
Yeah, very happy to defend Microsoft on that front actually
25:43
So they've been making really big investments for a long time
25:47
And making their data centers what we call carbon neutral
25:51
So really it just means that they're using clean sources of energy
25:55
To power all of their data centers
25:58
Which is actually a lot better than when we used to store data in a distributed way
26:03
Like everybody having one terabyte, something sitting on their desk to store all of their data
26:09
That was probably being fueled by fossil fuels
26:12
Whatever your greed is, wherever you live, that mix
26:15
Whereas by bringing it together in the cloud
26:17
They can do it in a really efficient way
26:19
They can locate those data centers places where renewables are cheap
26:23
Where the energy costs can be as efficient as possible
26:27
And one thing that I really love that they're doing is that they're actually trying to
26:32
Now get to the point where they're not just cancelling out their emissions going forward
26:38
They're going back in time back to where they started 1975
26:43
They're going to pull the emissions, all of the emissions they've ever contributed
26:47
Into the atmosphere back out again
26:50
And this is because they're investing in this weird kind of carbon offsetting approach
26:55
Where it's literally taking emissions back out of the atmosphere
26:59
And putting it in the ground or putting it somewhere through where it's not going to warm the planet
27:03
It's so hard isn't it? Because when you think about things like that
27:06
I hear that and I'm like amazing
27:08
And in an ideal world you want companies that are not having an impact
27:12
So they don't need to offset
27:14
Because by going and buying 1,000 trees
27:18
You're still destroying something
27:20
And I know that that's a really idealistic naive thing to think about
27:25
Because in order to move forward as people, as a society
27:31
All of these things need to be innovated
27:33
And some of these things are really important
27:35
Like technology as you say is connected to so many people like the upside is massive
27:39
It's just sometimes a bit frustrating that the only option is to offset
27:43
A post like there's no other solution it seems
27:46
Then just paying for the stuff that you're destroying
27:50
Or putting some of your profits back into being like oopsies
27:53
I know we've had a bad like influence on the world
27:55
And we've actually been destroying this forest or this thing
27:59
But all I'm going to do really is just give you some money to offset
28:02
It's something that there's not more companies
28:05
Where that isn't at the core of what they need to do
28:09
To create whatever it is they're doing
28:11
Do you know what I mean?
28:12
I do and I think that minimizing environmental footprints has always got to be the first order of business
28:18
And so it's great to see that Microsoft's now carbon neutral
28:23
So they're buying renewable energy
28:25
They're actually building renewable energies to make sure that it's all zero emissions, cleaning green
28:30
And so they're really trying to take a historical harm and redress that with these kind of technologies
28:37
It's kind of like you're just going to have to take the good with the bad
28:41
There's like a cop out but it's like it's life
28:44
It's like AI, ever I get so worked up with the jobs that are going to be displaced
28:49
People that are going to lose their jobs because their jobs are now being done by AI and by computers
28:54
Yes, on the flip side, imagine how much more efficient and imagine what we can actually achieve through AI
29:01
So yes, there's going to be people that are impacted but there's also going to be amazing jobs being created
29:07
Productivity and people can spend more time with their families and all of that
29:10
So it's like where does it stop?
29:12
You have to decide personally where your line is drawn really
29:17
Okay, I think this is a question for both of you
29:20
In your opinion, like obviously thinking about Microsoft in relation to this question
29:25
But maybe also just more broadly speaking from an ethical investing lens
29:29
It's really easy to take the approach of
29:33
Oh, it's big organizations responsibility to change the way that they operate
29:37
Who am I? I'm just one person but then at the same time that's really disempowering
29:41
Because it means as an individual you're like well I can't make any difference so why bother
29:45
From your perspective thinking about ethical investing
29:48
How much can we put the responsibility on a corporate versus an individual?
29:53
I think that if we want to have an ethical world where people are taking care of the basics for people, for the planet
30:02
It actually requires everybody to be playing a part in that
30:06
Like there's one of things that I thought you might talk about maybe as well as the role of government in all of that
30:12
So yeah there's individuals as corporations but there's a really big role for government
30:16
To kind of set a minimum standard and then for companies to meet that and then go beyond it
30:23
And ideally as part of their competitive advantage and there's some really interesting examples of companies
30:28
That have found cost savings and new markets because they've tried to take a more sustainable approach in what they do
30:36
And part of the reason they do that is because consumers and investors care
30:40
So that's where that nexus happens between your individual ethics and what you can do and how you vote with your dollars in the way you buy
30:50
But also the way you invest and how that drives change in corporations
30:54
Of course corporations that we kind of think of them as like these faceless machine type entities
30:59
But actually they're just made up of people and people want to feel like they're doing something meaningful in their work
31:05
And they don't want to think that they're working for a company that's unethical or that is doing bad things
31:10
And making a net negative in the world and so where you work and the standards that you said about
31:17
About who you're willing to work for and where you take your talent matters as well
31:21
There's a lot that you as an individual can do that also shapes corporate behavior that also shapes government behavior
31:28
It's a really good point about government because so true
31:31
As a consumer when you buy a product you're voting with that purchase
31:36
When you're an investor you're voting with your investment and putting your money into that company
31:41
And when you're a participant of the voting population when you vote you're voting for that government
31:48
And so it comes from like government down to the company in terms of like you need to vote for who you want in power
31:55
Just as much as you vote with your dollar or with your wallet in terms of your investments
32:00
Or you actually vote with the money that you spend as a consumer
32:04
You know it's you've got to be an active participant in the world
32:07
That's like in all aspects
32:10
I'd love to get to a place where the baseline for companies is pretty strict in terms of what they can and can't do
32:19
And I think you're right it does come down to what is like legally acceptable for a company and for people to at least meet that
32:28
But then also try and exceed that and it comes it comes down to who is in power who's in parliament
32:33
What do they care about what are their main focuses because if it's not climate change or people
32:38
Or looking after the planet and animals and how we're living in this world
32:43
And what they're most focused on is having a profitable economy or having super high or low taxes
32:49
Whatever it is
32:50
Yeah I think you're right that that first point of call in terms of having an impact on the way that the companies respond
32:57
Is voting for the parliament and the people in power you want to see to implement change
33:02
I last few questions that I would like both of you to answer is around in terms of the the future of this company
33:08
And whether you think it's an investible or profitable company
33:11
What are the projections for the for Microsoft?
33:14
Do we think that there's really exciting things to come what are things they're working on?
33:18
So you know we talked about how they've got this place in on like almost every computer
33:23
You know you open a window to do your work that's what Microsoft do
33:27
And now they're you know really getting up there in terms of cloud computing as well
33:32
The next phase is AI you know AI has gone from this novelty thing to it's starting to look like it's really going to take off
33:43
And because Microsoft's that trusted brand that's already on your computer
33:48
Already used at work if they can integrate that into their software packages like they're starting to already with co-pilot
33:55
And bring that alongside the cloud computing it should be a really rapid phase of growth
34:01
And it should capture this huge next wave of technological productivity improvement that that happens in the world
34:08
You know we're all going to want to dabble with AI we're already starting to do that
34:13
But everybody also knows there's risks you know how easy data going to be safe where's it going to wind up
34:19
So you're going to go with a trusted brand you're going to want to see it integrated inside kind of a safe environment
34:26
And Microsoft's the one with the pole position to do that
34:29
They're already the main kind of productivity suite that everybody uses every day
34:33
So true
34:34
I know what you mean if I was to trust my data with someone I would go with the more boring mainstream
34:40
Been around forever proven brand then I would some cool up and coming
34:44
Yeah, I think that's a really good point
34:47
So I would love to see you argue that you don't think Microsoft is going to be successful company
34:53
I know I'm struggling
34:55
No, I think the one thing I think that they and we've kind of spoken others to death that they do need to navigate very very carefully is the AI space
35:03
I think it's almost like it's on a tightrope and it could very easily fall one way or the other in terms of having a positive impact on humanity
35:13
Or a detrimental impact on humanity and so I think it really really needs to navigate that
35:19
As do all the other tech companies that are wanting a piece of the pie
35:22
Yeah, I agree with that. I think AI has this huge promise
35:26
And it could be really exciting for productivity
35:29
It could take away some of the kind of boring dull work and let people focus on more value added things and be able to priest you so much more
35:38
But there's a dark side to it as well. There's some really big dangers
35:43
And when you think about the way that governments might get hold of it and how they might use it
35:48
And it means against so much more data that can be tapped into and used in ways that we might never have thought of
35:57
Like I might not actually be me right now. I could be AI
36:01
You could be a deep ache and amazing deep ache
36:04
Oh my gosh, that is so creepy
36:09
I want to think I'm unique enough that a computer couldn't try and mimic me though
36:14
Oh darling
36:19
Please, you've got to give me something for the confidence that I said that word
36:24
Yeah
36:25
Listen to your final words on Microsoft or ethical investing or why it's important or if someone's listening to this and they're like
36:31
I still don't care about ethical investing. I'm not interested
36:34
Is there any kind of like mic drop moments that you'd like to share with that person listening?
36:39
Yeah, I think that it comes back to those really simple ideas that we were talking about at the start
36:46
Like you'd rather your money does good in the world than harm you'd rather that your money supported hospitals than weapons manufacture
36:55
That you'd rather that you were funding recycling than tobacco companies trying to hook children in the developing world
37:05
It's really quite simple
37:07
You know, we talked about how there's a big area of gray whether you're talking about the ethics of investing or just the regular part of investing
37:15
Like is this a good investment or not from a financial perspective
37:18
But there are some things that are quite clearly good and some things that are quite clearly bad
37:24
And so you don't have to spend all of your time in that in between
37:28
You can actually focus in on the avoiding the really obvious bads and focusing in on some really positive goods in your investment portfolio
37:38
And hopefully make some money at the same time
37:41
Oh, love that
37:42
Yeah
37:43
Okay, if you've got any final words, you don't need to be negative Microsoft, you can drop that now
37:48
Feel God, that was exhausting
37:51
No, I think I think what else is said is right, I think don't stress yourself out so much that you don't end up investing at all
38:00
If you are really worried but you want to invest ethically, there's great ETFs, there's great ethical funds that almost all the heavy lifting for you
38:09
Your Kiwi savers a mass of one as well, like your whole Kiwi saver you can look at
38:14
Am I with someone that I think is ethical and doing good or not and that's also like an easy decision
38:20
It's not like you're having to pick stocks. It's a whole fund, you know
38:23
Yeah, but don't get too caught up with none of us are perfect as long as your investments, you know, vaguely align with your ethics
38:32
Oh, it's a bit bloody deflating
38:34
I don't know if we should be saying that
38:36
No, but it's like you can beat yourself up so much about
38:39
Oh gosh, I forgot my keep cup today, I'm going to have to buy a coffee
38:42
Or you can be like I've got my keep cup but I'm driving my petrol car to work. Oh gosh, I should be walking
38:47
You know a lot of the time we do beat ourselves up so much that we could be doing better
38:52
And it's like you know what, doing a little bit is better than doing nothing
38:55
So the fact that you're even listening to this podcast and you're educating yourself on ethical investing
39:00
You know, you're going to now have that knowledge and that lens when you go and look at your fund, your Kiwi saver, your next investment company that you're investing
39:08
The fact that you're going to have that lens is great, so yeah
39:12
Oh, I loved this, you were both amazing
39:16
I don't even know who I would pick if I was picking a favourite
39:19
You were both just so great
39:21
Thank you, Alison, for all of your time
39:24
And honestly, it's been really cool to tap into a brain that's so heavily, excuse the pun, invested in this space
39:32
You see a lot of people throwing their ideas and opinions around whether it's on social media or resources
39:37
But actually just to sit down and have a really productive conversation like this has, I found it incredibly empowering
39:43
So thank you so, so much
39:45
It's been an absolute pleasure, thank you for all the work that you're doing to educate women, make it all seem a little bit less hard, especially in ethical space
39:55
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve
39:58
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40:02
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