Latest / Mythmakers / Did Peter Jackson get it right? - The Two Towers movie reconsidered - with Jacob Rennaker

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Did Peter Jackson get it right? - The Two Towers movie reconsidered - with Jacob Rennaker · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
• 0:11
  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Coulding and
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  I'm an author but also the director of the Centre. And for the second time I've been
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  joined by Jacob Renica who is a Tolkien fan and also a language specialist amongst many
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  other things. And we are taking a look at the Peter Jackson films 20 years on and thinking
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  about the script choices and what might be what mistakes were made, what great choices
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  were taken and also where the scope might be for future script writers and new new filmmakers
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  and television program makers to come along and do their own version. And today of course
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  as it's the second we have reached the two towers. So Jacob first of all is this one of your
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  favourite of the films or you know where in the lineup is it? We've already got three to line up.
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  Where would you go? Yeah. I'm asking which of the Star Wars films do you like?
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  I can say right. I can find a question. Yeah it is. You know it I would say it might be
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  at least favourite but only because but that's not there. I think that they're all for me again
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  that I like I mentioned last time I see them all is just kind of like one continual story
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  especially since they were shot kind of continuously. So in terms of the segments or chapters of
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  the story yeah it's I think I get more out of the characters and the world with the first and
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  the third than I do in the second. So second is traditionally the most difficult to do well right?
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  The saggy middle right you have to get through. So the beginning you have set up you have
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  your inciting incidents you have all this you know new new things that are happening crises
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  and then you still have to get to your you know climax and resolution but there's this big
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  stretch in the middle that you have to do something engaging with from an audience perspective.
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  And so it's I think I think it's I think it's good it's very I think because of the battles
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  there that sometimes seems a little long could be longer but yeah it's I'd say yeah so the least
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  again that's a hard like you said. I mean struggling to criticize something we actually really like
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  right exactly. I actually really enjoy watching how they cope with a really difficult thing
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  which is what to do with the middle section. I mean I get a lot of enjoyment from that. I agree
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  with you it's not I would probably rewatch the first and the third more frequently but there
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  are certainly plenty of perfect moments in in the second and so really great choices which
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  surprised me I remember watching it for the first time which I thought this is really good.
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  So before we think about the the bigger structure we're going to start with some smaller
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  moments. First of all let's think about the casting and and the the choices of language and
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  that kind of thing in the second film. We we're talking a lot about how Frodo was cast
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  young in fellowship. In this film I think most of the casting is there's less
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  challenging casting in this. It's all pretty pretty much on on the same line as the book
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  that we do have I suppose this falls into this. We do have characters popping up where they are
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  in the book like Halberrad sort of rocks up to with the elves, rocks up to Helm Steep. There are
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  some choices like that which mean that some characters are astray. So were you happy with the
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  casting choices? The new the new people of course mainly the Rohan. It's Bernard Hill and Miranda
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  I've gone her surname and the wonderful actress. Oh, Otto. Oh thank you and Kurt not Kurt.
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  Bern is the Karl Erben. I was the Kurt Cobain. That's someone completely different.
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  Also a blonde longish hair. Yeah and then of course there's David. Oh yeah I should have
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  got my pharameer. When? Which is known as pharameer. So what what do you think about
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  and almost forgot Werntung. Another great character of Tolkien. Were you happy with the choices
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  they made? I'm very happy with them all. I am also I am also I know it's funny that
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  this was just a couple months ago. I'm watching the X-Files television series, American television
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  series, and the fellow who plays Werntung I'm so sad that I forgot his name. He he was in an episode
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  of the second season, first or second season of X-Files as a you know the creepiest,
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  the most sinister possible kind of antagonist and he did it was yeah so it was a joy it was a joy
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  to watch him in another role. Brad Dorif. Thank you. I knew I was going to get that completely wrong
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  and yeah. So Brad was was yeah it's just an incredible choice for that level of yeah kind of
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  again the sinister sneaky sleazy just dark creepy. He's yeah some sort of creature of the night.
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  I'm sure in real life I would love to meet him in real life and just have a good chat with him.
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  He's quite funny in the in the making off because of course he had to shave off his eyebrows
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  each time he played the part. Oh wow okay. His partner was getting quite cross because he
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  when he went for the pickups he'd come back looking you know and not good look guys if you think
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  you're giving off your eyebrows. Okay so yeah I think in that case with I don't think
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  tonally there's much difference I think answering films they they've maintained it's not one of
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  these scripts where they've had like loads of writers coming in and it doesn't fit it feels all
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  part of an overarching trilogy. So yeah so what about the perfect moments for you? Do you have
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  any of loads in there? Yeah the one I can say just you know one one moment the moment that somehow
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  I want translated onto my tombstone is a arrogance return opening the hall doors at Helmstead
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  right when he walks in he's he's just you know drug himself through the water and the horse
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  you know Brego took him up onto his back and then took him back but then you know when when he first
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  you know enters the hall there of Helmstead with that kind of slow motion almost you know
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  a half slow motion pushing open the doors and him just you know striding in there is
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  every single time it's just this like I just get this like surge of yeah just like majesty and power
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  and you know uh awe and not that I am any of those things but just so if somebody's stopping by my
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  gravesite someday that they see that they might get that you know just have a nice
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  I think I'm suspect that you you you you you you identify and root for arrogant quite a lot I think
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  I can see this I can understand that whole episode of him falling off the edge and being dead
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  and coming back again is is another sort of birth death and resurrection kind of story and it
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  but it's not actually from the books right right right it works it works I think I think I think I
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  I mean I I think again like I I saw before I read the books um uh two towers was the film so I
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  saw the fellowship and then uh two towers and after two towers came out that's what really it was
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  the end of the two towers film that really gave me the final push to dive into the books themselves
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  and then my life became consumed by Tolkien after words forever after um but it was that
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  yeah so so it was it was compelling for me and got me into a place where I wanted to learn more about
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  those characters but yeah it may be yeah arrogant and with the in talking about casting um just going
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  back for a second with arrogant there here and elsewhere Vigo Mortensen bringing this a
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  kind of softness I want to say you know kind of almost like a feminine energy to this king this powerful
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  king so he's this really this combination of you know power and strength but also this softness
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  and care and nurture as this you know king healer that you do see in the book um but I think he
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  really kind of elevates that and brings out the kind of nurturing qualities of the king a little
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  a little more in his in his performance there that uh that I love personally and kind of is essentially
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  kind of my model for uh I wish that I could be arrogant as a father to my to my children they
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  could see me and as I know yeah as a good aspiration for me one of the perfect moments in terms of
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  camera work and and evocation of place and everything is when you first see the golden hall um
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  med yourself and you've got air wind standing in on that very windy um ledge that she stands on
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  but it just seems a very it's almost like a perfect talking moment there's the vistas the scope the
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  sense of it actually having the air you know it's a wild place but yeah that the other thing I really
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  like as well um she's a slightly odd choice maybe it's I love that they use the Anglo-Saxon
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  dirge for when they bury um dead yeah I think this might only be an extended addition I don't know
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  anyway um that that's lovely because of course they are the Anglo-Saxons in this world
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  across between them and the the Hungarian riders of ancient history um and so there's lots of
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  moments there thinking this thing not forget um the journey of Frodo and Sam are there any perfect
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  moments for you on that because of course there is the introduction of golem yeah yeah you do have
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  that I think for me the moments with with Frodo and Sam my favorite moment there in two towers is
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  you know Sam's monologue when they're around osquilia um you've blip right at the end here
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  right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
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  but in terms of the moments overall just like that where he's talking about right it's like in the
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  great stories uh the ones that really mattered and he's talking about the characters living inside a
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  story versus you know seeing the story from the outside and what what sort of difference that makes um
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  from a person's perspective and just like yeah so his delivery um Sean Essin's delivery of that is
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  just so earnest and pure and inspiring every time I see it yeah that's that's a moment just like
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  really charges me and thinks it makes me think that right then the Andrea Frodo asks him so he
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  says you know that there's there's something that was that they were holding on to in those stories
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  and then Frodo says you know what were they holding on to what are we holding on to Sam and he says
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  that there's some good in this world mr. Frodo and it's worth fighting for right so every single time
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  that just you know it's it is it is inspirational uh kind of at it at its core and yeah that's for
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  me that's one of the things that one of the moments that in rewatching these films there's the ones
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  that I look forward to most and get the most out of our some of those character moments and the funeral
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  moment also that you that you moment that you mentioned that was one of my other favorite moments
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  is that entire burial scene and then the conversation oh yeah afterward between uh right are two
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  kings if you will and the reflection on you know burying uh your children is is is quite touching
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  and moving yeah just the the English accent dirge just kind of yeah evokes that and I think yeah
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  I think great performance you're there talking about that it's a very simple and stripped
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  vaccine just between him and Gandalf but I think it feels so genuine because of course in the way
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  the book works the dreads dead sort of happy it moves quite swiftly on um and I think it was a
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  really good decision to give a moment of grief yeah uh because it the book doesn't have that
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  breathing space in it um so one more moment of course is I do think that when I watched the first
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  time the anti-circus first schizophrenic um digital golem that was just amazing when I first saw
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  that I mean it's become so paraded that we almost forget how powerful that was
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  were really well written I mean it's all there in the talking but the way it's chosen and put
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  together and then performed I think is another extremely perfect moment you know one of the best
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  scenes in the whole the three films I agree okay any um less good moments um yeah so again this is
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  I think uh look at a big picture and uh you know Tolkien's own theory of uh creating worlds
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  right of of myth making so in um his essay on fairy stories he talks about um you know the creation
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  of secondary worlds right and that um your goal is to create a world that is internally consistent
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  and that your mind can enter and where it relates to everything as being true within within that
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  world itself right um so the moment so he says you know that's the the suspension of disbelief
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  is one thing he doesn't think that that's what fantasy does fantasy isn't just the suspension of
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  disbelief but rather the kind of invitation toward and fostering of an active belief in a secondary
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  fantasy world so um he so he so he says the moment that the disbelief arises then the spells broken
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  and then the magic or rather the art has failed where it was his way of describing that so for me the
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  moment like the moment that that absolutely I was taken out of this film as a true internally
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  consistent world uh was a legalist kind of skateboarding down the stairs on the on the shield
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  and shooting arrows um I think if I would have seen that as a earlier teenager that that might
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  have been my favorite scene in the film isn't it it's kind of a different audience for that
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  it seemed right right so that seems yeah so so I think so that kind of like tonally it it seemed
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  a little bit off uh I would expect I think given how the elves act it I know it didn't seem
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  quite as dignified I don't know what I was expecting him to do to kind of like float down the stairs
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  and shoot arrows instead I don't know what the alternative is but it wasn't but that that was for
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  whatever reasons that was something that during that intense battle kind of like had took me out
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  of that secondary world and said oh I'm watching a film not I'm living inside this world so for me
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  that's probably the biggest example of something that was a cool shot and like a fun idea but
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  ended up for me personally kind of taking me out of the film for a moment I think again that's
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  and does go a bit crazy about a legalist doesn't he because um I sort of put that along that moment
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  I agree because of the skateboarding feel of that it does feel like a stunt yeah whereas
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  even more absurd but in a sense more earned is when he takes down the mumma kill
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  uh the uniform in the next film I'm leaving it the same sort of thing but that's the sort of you
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  can see him thinking how do I get how do I how do I tackle this creature and he methodically
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  works his way I think well I've got to do this and so it feels I don't know there's something a
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  bit more within the world about that again it's an elaborate it's not in the book or anything but
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  um that for me doesn't jar even though it's ridiculous uh in the hobby the peach action goes completely
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  crazy he's doing antifysics thing where he's climbing up falling rocks uh in the last in the battle
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  of that um which really is just and hanging off bats completely completely basically yeah so
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  you know I would put that that sequence at one end and mumma kill at the other end and the
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  the shield thing yeah okay he's kind of like it works I could see somebody actually doing that
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  yes but I could see like me and my friends trying to do and I I'm sure there's probably uh you know
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  you know uh hospitals emergency rooms who have witnessed how many children have tried
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  reenacting that down their own stairs yeah you're worried because you go to your own if you say
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  I know yeah so yeah so have to be careful um which scenes are just skip past that uh but it's
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  it so it was it was but like so it would seem more contemporary than something that fit into
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  that world I mean if we'd seen something like that happen before or there was a real reason like
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  he had to get down and we saw him taking the shield and it was if it seemed kind of like an
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  inevitable choice uh that he had to get down and the only way he could do that was with this
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  if it was set up differently then I could see it
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  it seeming more natural I think I can see a world or a way of shooting that in which
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  he has to do this and so I'm okay with it within the world itself but as it's shot and as it
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  came across to me it seemed they're kind of gimmicky yeah okay right so moving on from that we
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  again everybody we're doing this about something we love um it's not that it's a tiny moment
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  which we're quibbling not not the whole arc of the film or anything let's think about the
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  the way it's structured from beginning to end I think I want to particularly mention how it starts
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  so if you can cast your mind back to 2001 I think it was when it came out was it 2001 somewhere
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  somewhere around there um I think that choosing to start with rerunning the bowrog
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  um scene but flipping it to Gandalf's perspective was genius no unexpected but also
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  um sort of sort of doing a reprise it's this is the important moment this is the moment moment
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  that's haunted Frodo it was it was a very clever so I loved that it's one of my favorite openings
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  actually it's it is my favorite opening of all the three films it's the one that I think is the
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  best bit of um filmmaking yeah yeah agreed and the so the cinematography during that section right so
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  you're hearing the noises of the battle as you're getting this big kind of like panoramics you know
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  sweeping shot of these you know snow covered mountains and you're you're being set up with you know
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  a sense the scope of this film and what's happening you're immediately stepping into this wide world
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  and then you're hearing the conflict and so it's giving you a chance to like ramp up to remember it
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  you're almost being primed to remember it and then you actually get in there you know zooming in
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  closing in and then getting inside the mountain and looking at that yeah it's it's it's beautiful
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  it's a great yeah a very powerful way to start the film with doing a small recap like you said to get
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  what's the minimum amount that you have to do to get people up to speed to get into the film
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  and I think that was a brilliant decision and way of doing that it was very effective I felt
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  so in terms of the structure they have the problem that Frodo and Sam's journey is quite unrelentingly
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  miserable there's a brief brief spell with pharameer in the books where things look up for a little bit
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  but it is lots of rocky or ashy or swabumpy landscapes muted tones lots of suffering and
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  either three actors or two so very intense so they've got two films that one and a half more films
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  to do this and I think it's really tough it's tough in the books I mean I love those bits because
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  I always think that the real adventure is is the mental struggle the journey that's going on
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  and the way that their relationship changes and shifts so is it I think I find it fascinating
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  but I know that my own children for example they much prefer the Pippin and Mary and you know
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  the colourful fighting the the travel you know the other the other stories but of course those
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  stories are actually just settings to allow Frodo and Sam to inch slowly to their destination
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  it does present a problem because how do you make Frodo and Sam as interesting so people aren't
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  skipping how do you do that and did they succeed yeah I think I think so yeah I think visually
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  you're right that you definitely are distinctively seeing different environments there um
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  and yeah so of course the introduction of Gollum there is really I think what helps you keep
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  those two world separate and engaging and entertaining um the tensions that are created there that
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  are you know that are kind of slightly different than the books in terms of kind of your triangular
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  relationship between Gollum Frodo and Sam um because Gollum I think I think the two hours actually
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  keeps closer to the book we haven't got to attend the King it diverges a lot there
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  but there is already tension in the books between Frodo having empathy for Gollum
• 23:29
  Gollum and I think from from this and I think yeah so maybe to clarify I want to think in the
• 23:34
  the films I had greater empathy for Gollum in the films and how they set Gollum up and I think
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  in part is the character design right so he's uh you know he looks sad and sorry and he has giant
• 23:47
  eyes right so right and in the in anti-circuses incredible performance uh of Gollum and then
• 23:58
  you see and again like you're saying with the dialogue or it's it's I don't know what you call
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  a monologue with yourself where you're actually two distinct personalities a mono dialogue
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  um internal dialogue um but he's you know that going back and forth the the seeing Gollum
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  and and and in Elijah Woods uh Frodo you just like being able to tell by looking at him
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  his pity for Gollum I think I picked up on that more so in the films it was easier for me to see
• 24:31
  visually um and I got a greater feel for that then in the books uh how it's described yeah I
• 24:40
  I felt like it came across more than I can and again I think perhaps that might just because
• 24:44
  the film is a visual medium and it's easier for me to respond and react to something that I'm
• 24:49
  seeing that looks like me actually visually in front of my eyes so but yeah I think I absolutely
• 24:55
  agree with you that uh that Gollum talking to himself anti-circuses performance just really
• 25:02
  elevated that character of of Gollum and I think that's what is interesting I think helps carry
• 25:07
  the salmon Frodo parts more is the is that element I mean the other thing to mention of course
• 25:14
  is that the books um do the first half book three in Tolkien's count which is the first half
• 25:21
  of the two towels is all the other characters and book four is Frodo and Sam and so what they've
• 25:27
  done is they've chopped it all up and then put it back in more or less sequential order though I think
• 25:32
  perhaps um the the point they finish a little bit early um just because the way Tolkien's written it
• 25:43
  the point at which the two I'm going a bit on going on too long but basically they've changed the
• 25:48
  timing so the stories run together on the same timeline whereas Tolkien sort of did uh here's
• 25:55
  a bit of this story here's a bit of that story um and I think that helps by putting it one after
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  the other because you are then having the thing where you've got one kind of tone and palette
• 26:07
  and color and then you swap back to that and then you never forget Frodo and Sam so that was a good
• 26:14
  choice yeah agreed okay so we've got some new um characters to well cultures really to mention
• 26:23
  um we thought you started talking about Rohan were you happy with the way that was realised
• 26:29
  um in particular I think looking at the big three when Emma and Theoden the way they were
• 26:38
  characterised there were some interesting um your discussion about magic in our previous
• 26:44
  broadcast the way they explained the third in possession I think was an interesting change
• 26:51
  yeah yeah yeah absolutely you know agreed and that was you know one of those other visual elements
• 26:58
  that took me out momentarily was you know theodins kind of transformation from this you know
• 27:03
  Hori quite bearded you know almost like father time grumpy father time figure to then you know
• 27:12
  his beard kind of shortens magically and you know his hair color changes um but yeah I I think
• 27:22
  there you're the depictions of them they're they all give powerful performances um yeah uh AMR
• 27:28
  right uh in his you know sadness and the tragedy of him kind of being exiled uh in a sense there
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  was really um really effective effective uh for for me and then uh AON what she's struggling with
• 27:47
  there um the slight change in AON been her in in regards to her relationship with Aragorn
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  at something we'll probably talk more about is kind of the a little shift in um what the emphasis
• 28:00
  is that the the screenwriters chose to kind of highlight and elaborate on maybe a little more um that
• 28:07
  was something that from the film again just reading or not reading the books until after I'd seen
• 28:12
  the two towers um it seemed consistent and and made sense but now yeah going and looking at the
• 28:19
  uh uh the source material and being more familiar with that then you do lose something in
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  you know in emphasizing the particular aspect of AON namely her kind of wholehearted
• 28:36
  of I don't know obsession or devotion to Aragorn is um you lose you lose a little bit more of this
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  you know incredibly powerful uh kind of independent uh spirit that uh wins arguments and
• 28:50
  is a force to be reckoned with in her own right I think you lose a bit of that sense by kind of
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  tying her um sense of self to Aragorn so much in the film she does have you know she does fall
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  for him she falls for what he represents but I think that they try to give her a bit more air time
• 29:11
  by putting in some extra scenes and there's a moment where she's complaining um in Helm Street for
• 29:16
  example which I think is an addition because she wasn't there um so yeah I know what you mean
• 29:28
  I think they make she feels um yeah she she feels less beautiful in in a way I mean she
• 29:39
  yeah I think but I don't mind it I think they're they're looking for areas to expand her character aren't
• 29:45
  they and it also goes to your point that you made in the last podcast about when there is an
• 29:51
  opportunity to conflate two characters to do one job then do so so the situation where Ermer is
• 29:59
  sent away um that doesn't happen he's not the one who sent away he's at Helm Steep and it's actually
• 30:05
  Halberad who and not Halberad um uh Erkenbrand sorry I'm good thanks right who comes uh and he's
• 30:13
  a you you're probably thinking who who on earth is he uh he's another the world to talk in
• 30:18
  his bigger there are people you never meet right uh in the films who appear there so that was
• 30:24
  all a good choice to give that story to Ermer though he does come across as being a little bit
• 30:28
  churlish uh at times yeah but I think it's fine that's a that's an interpretation what's about
• 30:35
  so yeah we're mainly thumbs up for Rohan uh they do I think Burnett Hill makes a crack in the
• 30:44
  extended edition I think it's him about how his armour is so much better than everybody else is
• 30:50
  but they do look quite poor and impoverished but I suppose an Anglo-Saxon village would have been
• 30:55
  like that maybe yeah right your king would have had all the the gold leaf um what about the ends
• 31:02
  it's tree beard your tree beard yeah that's a good that's a good question again so it was uh you know
• 31:08
  it took me a while to place the voice right John Reese Davies does the voice of tree beard as well so
• 31:13
  hearing that I was like I know that was one thing was somewhat distracting as I know I've heard
• 31:17
  this voice before I know I've heard this voice before and then again going back to my uh being
• 31:23
  raised half on Star Wars half on Indiana Jones was uh yeah sharing John Reese Davies voice then
• 31:29
  placing that which he has a great has a great voice for it um yeah the character design I really
• 31:35
  like the character the character design especially like right when you have your uh end to moot right
• 31:41
  with where you have all of the different uh ends gathering together visually depicting different
• 31:47
  types of trees you know kind of almost having like one emissary from a different type of of tree
• 31:52
  different species of tree together so I I really liked what they what they did there um in terms of
• 31:59
  his uh attitude demeanor I think you know um as I mentioned in the last podcast uh Tolkien's way
• 32:09
  of writing about nature is you know transcendental uh in his sense right uh it's so his descriptions
• 32:19
  of the forests and tree beard his kind of depiction embodiment of trees you can tell this is a man
• 32:26
  who loved trees that Tolkien loved trees right and so it's just a joy to see him give a tree a chance
• 32:33
  to speak and so and with that uh there's this sense of right the this this wisdom and knowledge
• 32:40
  that comes from a long life and living life slowly uh which is more kind of aligned on the hobbit
• 32:47
  end of things right hobbits live their lives slowly right so they're kind of closer to trees and how
• 32:53
  they experience the world um it seems in a sense then the world of of men and elves well elves
• 33:00
  have you know again this is possibly a long lifespan but especially with with with men that they're
• 33:05
  the kind of like action oriented and they have this kind of small scope of vision um and what's
• 33:10
  happening and what they're concerned with whereas the elves have this kind of long institutional
• 33:15
  history that they've lived through um so i didn't get that sense of wisdom from tree beard in the film
• 33:22
  is what all that is to say is that i think yeah that that that was one of the biggest differences i saw
• 33:28
  was the that he's almost because of how slow he is he seems slow in every sense of the word
• 33:37
  yeah that's a change which i think isn't for the best which is in the book tree beard is already
• 33:43
  pretty much decided that they need to do something but um how that would run in a film is tree
• 33:49
  bids takes them to a meeting they wait outside for a long time and then they decide to go and do
• 33:54
  something about it so they've added in the jeopardy um of them deciding not to act right and it takes
• 34:04
  Mary and Pippin to um challenge them and then to bring them to confront them with the damage that
• 34:12
  uh Sarah man's been doing that's a change and it means that tree beard is less you know tree
• 34:19
  beard knows he knows he knows what needs to be done uh and he's talked to Gandalf so the decision
• 34:26
  has put is pretty much from his point of view taken um so he's he's not the book tree beard
• 34:33
  he's he's a perfectly decent film tree beard but i think if you're thinking you're listening to this
• 34:39
  and you've only seen the films i would definitely have a look at how the ends behave in the book
• 34:44
  it's very interesting and the difference is isn't as a great um extra who you meet the young one
• 34:51
  quick beam and you know what i do like is um the way they all storm eyes and guard
• 35:01
  i thought how are they going to do this it's just like an impossible thing to realise but i think
• 35:06
  that is very well realised yeah with all the set pieces of uh breaking the the dam and and
• 35:15
  how would a tree take on a a building you know he's i think they did a smashing job on that very good
• 35:23
  okay sort of the final um piece i want to look at in two towers is pharameer and the little
• 35:31
  trip to osgilia that doesn't happen in the books folks um what happens in the books is
• 35:38
  Frodo and Sam are taken to um the the cave where the waterfall is and that's where
• 35:46
  the the confrontation where pharameer happens and pharameer is much much nicer
• 35:53
  in the book than he is in the film i have a couple of problems in the film here shown
• 35:58
  as condoning beating up golem and he's also drags them off to gondor he he wants to take the ring now
• 36:10
  in the book the point is pharameer doesn't he refuse it you know it's they've changed that
• 36:17
  jelly and that's a really big change it's done script purposes to again add a bit of drama
• 36:24
  intention they they need an antagonist at this point so okay here's pharameer um it's not much
• 36:30
  for story if he's just a nice guy who helps them on the way um they have to give him a bit of
• 36:35
  edge but it means that he's wrenched out of his it's not consistent with the pharameer you then
• 36:41
  meet again because they've done this to him so i have a problem with that uh in the i think it's
• 36:47
  really unfair pharameer that he has this sort of pro torture little moment in his life right
• 36:54
  right yeah not agreed and i think that's your right that that's for you know screenwriting purposes
• 37:00
  the uh changes in pharameer do help create you know kind of this triangle between denathor
• 37:09
  boramer and pharameer right so you have that kind of triad where you where denathor is kind of
• 37:14
  hitting boramer against pharameer um so it heightens the tension and drama there um
• 37:20
  but you also have in in at the same time trying to give pharameer a character arc right so that's
• 37:26
  another thing with all of these different characters they feel like they have to have an arc
• 37:29
  with aragorn um we talked about a little bit last time uh you know he's kind of this unassuming
• 37:35
  king is we've actually seen the first film that he you know or uh you know Elran says that he's
• 37:39
  turned away from that path right the path of kingship and that he's is is is hesitant or if not
• 37:46
  you know waffling on whether or not to actually be king if that's something you know it says he
• 37:50
  notice this is his right but is that something that he wants to do that he should do um i think they
• 37:56
  do that you definitely see that more in the films than in the books um and then part of that is
• 38:00
  to create character arc for him right you need a character arc for every one of these main characters
• 38:05
  they have to be and you have to make it the largest arc possible to make it as compelling for
• 38:10
  audiences to follow right so pharameer if you just have him as you know this kind of
• 38:14
  paragon of virtue and loyalty um and justice then you you don't get as much an arc for him as a character
• 38:23
  you get him as kind of a static character which isn't as engaging and so if you want him to have
• 38:27
  more screen screen time he has to be making some sort of change across scenes and so here yeah
• 38:33
  i think i think that's part of the purpose so you there's definitely a different feel for the
• 38:37
  character in the book as opposed to the film and sometimes where i think you understand a bit more
• 38:42
  in villainizing denathor right so denathor instead of coming across in the books as just kind of a
• 38:51
  resigned kind of cold leader who has to who does what's necessary recognizes that he
• 38:58
  he has to face a loss and then it's kind of managing that loss as opposed to kind of an
• 39:04
  actively evil obviously almost villainous kind of bent here in the in the films in doing that
• 39:13
  you're you know that character kind of almost elicits that it seems from pharameer
• 39:21
  um that the pharameer if he who has to live up to this particular version of his father
• 39:26
  yeah there's a good thing with um the the original time they take Osgiliath with Boromir doing a speech
• 39:34
  and then the brothers together and then the father comes along it's it's a very good extra scene
• 39:39
  sort of establishing that trio i like that very much that scene i i just wish they hadn't done the
• 39:46
  beating up of golem yeah and that plays differently now too as well so then looking at that 20 years
• 39:53
  later with you know the the discouraging public discussions about torture right military torture
• 39:57
  and in this place or not or you know the ethics of that um in interrogation so that that's that
• 40:04
  yeah that definitely reads differently now than did it and it did and it read and it read you know
• 40:10
  shocking and uh yeah and and wrong i think at the time but even more so now as the world and the
• 40:17
  conversations that we're having today have have changed um in our emphasis i think seeing that
• 40:22
  scene yeah it's definitely you're seeing that as you know an analog almost for police brutality
• 40:29
  that exists right and is it a serious problem and so that does it certainly the extra you
• 40:34
  know the sort of conversations that we're having in terms of what's happening in the world today
• 40:38
  it's impossible to divorce that from our experience watching these films and so now it's
• 40:42
  nothing wrong at that point i mean no we have something wrong in the past but as far as far
• 40:47
  I mean i know he's he's just being roughed up because he looks a bit okay yeah because of how he
• 40:55
  looks exactly exactly right or or he is he's visited that pool right but he said that they established
• 41:00
  in the film that this is this pool that the you know the the the the consequence is dead oh yeah
• 41:06
  that's right yeah yeah that's right yeah sorry so there is so you do have at least some justification
• 41:11
  you know you know you're set up in the film of this is an important they don't just describe why
• 41:15
  right some sort of sacred pool and that if you enter and take something out of it right that if
• 41:19
  you if you're there then keep it keep it there um HQ secret right okay yeah so it's dead
• 41:27
  right right right so there's yeah so that's what i think so that that that's what provides at least
• 41:34
  their the justification for that i think for the characters but from the audience i think yeah
• 41:39
  it's hard it's hard to buy in or be sympathetic toward him standing there watching this poor little
• 41:45
  frail creature with huge eyes get pummeled yeah so there we go um this is the the scene um future
• 41:53
  script writers that it'd be great if you could read if you're going to give Farmer a character
• 41:57
  up what would you do what what what what you're you know decide a different one and haven't
• 42:02
  got that because we think this one is a bit of a not quite not quite hit the target there right so
• 42:10
  again there is so much to talk about in all these films which is a lot of the pleasure of them
• 42:15
  but we've come towards the end of the two towers and we're going to leave on the cliffhanger as
• 42:21
  the film does not knowing how it's all going to end so we always have a sort of little moment where
• 42:28
  we think wherein all the fantasy world is the best place for something and we've talked about tree
• 42:33
  beard so Jacob if you were tree a sentient tree would you like to find yourself in yeah well and i
• 42:43
  have to you know bracket middle earth for that so this is outside of middle earth just because
• 42:50
  how can you because obviously you agree in middle earth yeah i would be i would absolutely be there
• 42:55
  in the middle earth as Tolkien himself describes it but outside of that i think um it's not so it's
• 43:02
  somewhat fantasy um or it's kind of a borderline fantasy with magical realism um have you read
• 43:10
  a monster calls um by patrick ness yeah based on warmed out concept um exactly yeah yeah yeah so
• 43:18
  um uh the tree there are kind of the the monster the titular monster in a monster calls that
• 43:26
  you tree uh that landscape and what what he does um and for those of you hemorrhid i highly recommend
• 43:34
  it and especially the uh the original illustrated version illustrated by jim k has some gorgeous
• 43:40
  illustrations that really add to this um it's essentially a story about uh right the power
• 43:45
  of uh stories to help us understand our lives and to cope with tragedy and loss right um so
• 43:53
  deeply moving story uh but it's facilitated by this utri who tells a series of stories to this
• 44:01
  child who's coming to terms with uh you know his mother's uh terminal cancer um and so just
• 44:08
  how and the the i loved the book and then the film i don't know if you've seen the film adaptation
• 44:13
  of monster calls it's it's well worth seeing it's written by um patrick ness he does the screenplay
• 44:18
  and there's some elements that he adds that kind of amplify the story from the book that he adds to
• 44:24
  the screenplay so there's a really interesting example of a book that's great in an adaptation that
• 44:29
  is that is at least as good as the book in part because the author of the book is also the author
• 44:35
  of the screenplay but this the way that this this character is depicted Liam Neeson voices uh the
• 44:40
  tree so you have uh i don't know if it's kind of secondhand aslan uh vibes that kind of are coming
• 44:48
  through uh from visual depictions of animated characters but Liam Neeson's depiction of this tree
• 44:54
  and this wisdom that this tree has in being kind of harsh but also loving right kind of being
• 45:01
  firm and a world where trees can interact with little boys and help them through difficult times
• 45:07
  i think that's something that this compelling to me again perhaps because i have a a a little boy
• 45:13
  of my own that uh i would hope i could be a wise tree and in part you know share stories to help him get
• 45:19
  through uh hard times that he will inevitably and unfortunately experience in his life how about you
• 45:27
  well i first of all thought a little bit about avatar the world of the avatar but i actually
• 45:32
  and it's not one i love so my my thoughts went back to um what i read as a child and i don't often
• 45:42
  think about eony blighten anymore because um either she fallen out of favor or whatever i don't know
• 45:47
  but um i loved as a child the magic faraway tree stories
• 45:54
  now i don't know what they'd be like to read now um but what i remember this is this difference
• 46:00
  they could be good i have no idea um but what i remember is there's this massive tree with lots of
• 46:07
  people living in it lots of little little like creatures living in it but the best thing about it
• 46:11
  all is at the top a different world touches the top of the tree and it moves on so the children
• 46:19
  can climb up the tree and have an adventure but they have to leave before the world moves on or
• 46:23
  they get stuck that's a bit of jeopardy there and i love the idea of this i suppose it
• 46:28
  probably in the background there's the the tree of the world and all those sort of mythic trees
• 46:34
  is influencing that but i i'm memberfinding that a very powerful tree as i was uh i think i won't
• 46:40
  go back and read it again because i want to keep the fact that it was so amazing still in my mind
• 46:46
  i don't want to sort of challenge that so the magic faraway tree i'd like to be that
• 46:51
  thank you so much Jacob and uh i look forward to talking to you about return of the king
• 46:57
  so thank you so much for having me thank you