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Pitch Grips: Zack Wheeler and Yu Darvish · The Mound Visit

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You know Davis, he's not scared to try anything. And it's funny because
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in his like interviews, he's like, oh, yeah, every time I
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try think of a new pitch, I try it first in game just to
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know like hitter reactions, and so like he thinks, like just trying a
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new pitch and bullpens or whatever is useless because you can't see the hit a
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reaction. And so every time he comes up with a new pitch, he's
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like, all right, I'm gonna I'm just gonna try it in this game.
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Welcome to another episode of the Mound Visit podcast. Today, me and
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Josh are gonna dive into pitch grips, and we both have tinkered with a
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bunch of grips throughout our careers, and we even had an episode at the
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very beginning of the podcast where we broke down our grips is, among other
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grips, basically every single pitch grip that you could use for every pitch type.
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It was a very extensive episode, so we'll attach that one in the
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show links. But today we specifically were to talk about one pitcher each We're
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gonna dive into their arsenal, maybe share a little bit of background of some
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of their cues and processes for those pitches, but really just give you some
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actionable grip ideas that you can try to implement yourself and see how they work
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for you. So I'm going to do Zach Wheeler. He has a very
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in depth arsenal has six pitches. Josh, I believe you're gonna do you.
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Darvish, another guy a ton of pitches. So we'll go through these
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fairly quickly, but we want to make sure that we give you guys some
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really actionable tips and advice when it comes to grips and what to look for
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maybe in the movement. So Josh, I'm gonna kick it to you and
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have you get started with you Darvish. All right, Yeah, So,
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as you said, you, Darvish has so many pitches, and he's such
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a cool pitch to really study you just because you know, he throws like
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so many pitches, and we'll run through all of them. He has like
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tiny variations of each pitch and so and also his Japanese and so a lot
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of the stuff gets lost in translation. And so I'm Japanese, I'm flowing
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in Japanese, so I can understand that stuff, and so hopefully I can
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give you guys some stuff that you guys haven't heard before. And so yeah,
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I want to dive straight into his for seam. And so his four
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team is super grip is extremely traditional, like it's just like across the seams,
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nothing special. The thing that makes it unique is how he thinks about
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throwing it, and so U davage. He has a natural tendency to cut
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the ball, and so he gets a little bit of gyro on his four
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seam. At least he used to anyway before. I believe it was like
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until about twenty twenty. He used to get a lot of gyro on his
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fastball and it will cut a little bit. And he didn't like that because
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it affected his vertical movement and it didn't get like, it didn't gray very
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well. And so what he did was, Okay, He's like, all
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right, like I'm cutting the ball and I'm gyroing it, which means my
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hand is probably in like a supernated position. And so what he did was
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like, all right, I'm gonna just go the complete opposite. And so
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what he what he does is that he thinks about throwing it with a fully
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pronated forum and So if you think about Supernation's right here, Normally people throw
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it with their palm like facing the target. But what he tries to do
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is he tries to face the the inside more like the index finger, the
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inside of that to the target. And so it's a fully pronated arm and
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he just tries to throw it straight through the target. And I thought that
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was super interesting. I wouldn't really recommend that anyone try it, Like,
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maybe try it and then see if you if you like it, But I
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wouldn't recommend you just go out there and rip it because if you actually are
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pro doating and like, it could be bad for your arms. So yeah,
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that's what he does and it helped him a lot. Like he he
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went in. As soon as he started doing, his butt went way up
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his uh it started running instead of cutting. And so yeah, that's that's
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a cool cue from you, Davish. But his grip is pretty traditional.
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It's nothing special or anything like that. Well, what's the grip takes through
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it? Oh, it's just a grip. Yeah. The grip is just
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a traditional full team just right here across the seams. Yeah, and yeah,
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the cue is he's taking it with a fully pronated um and ripping through
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the target. That's crazy. I mean yeah, like you said, I
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mean maybe you wouldn't recommend that for various reasons. But I'm impressed that he
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throws it as hard as he does. I would think that that would hurt
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the velocity of the pitch. Now no, and I think it actually helped
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his velocity. It's weird, Like you know, Davis, he's not scared
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to try anything. And it's funny because in his uh like interviews, he's
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like, oh, yeah, every time I try think of a new pitch,
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I try it first in game just to know like hitter reactions, and
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so like he thinks, like just trying a new pitch and bullpens or whatever
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is useless because you can't see the hit a reaction. And so every time
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he comes up with a new pitch, he's like, all right, I'm
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gonna I'm just gonna try it in this game. That's incredible. We could
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have a conversation about that right there, because like from a mental standpoint,
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like you have to have confidence in yourself, like you have to not be
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afraid of having a bad outing. I mean he has to know going into
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it that it may or may not work. But he's okay with that because
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evidently he's going to learn through that process and that there's probably something to that,
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like why spend a whole month in a bullpen working on it and then
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you try to test in a game just to find out that it doesn't work,
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and then you wasted a month of some of your training economy. I
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mean, it makes sense logically, but obviously there is that mental aspect,
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that confidence aspect to overcome and to not have to worry about, you know,
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getting benched or getting released if you're in pro ball or whatever it might
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be, if your performance isn't good. So obviously he's earned the right with
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with the history that he's had in his career, to wear if he has
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a bad outing and it's not a big deal. He's not in jeopardy of
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losing his spot in the rotation. So it is an interesting perspective. But
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I love that in general, of like not being afraid to take risks,
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Like you want to try something new, great, let's go. Let's let's
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see how the hitter reacts to it, and then you can adjust from there
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and see if you're on the right track or not. Yeah, he has
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al Yeah again, just like mentally, it's crazy how he does it.
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So yeah, perfect, We'll all dive into Zach Wheeler's four seam, and
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his really isn't anything special either. So the way he holds it is a
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traditional force seam. He has his fingers pretty close together, and he has
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the horseshoe on the outside part of the ball. And I couldn't really find
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anything as far as like what his cues are or what he's trying to feel,
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but as far as like the results, it is an incredible performing fastball.
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The expected wOBA on it is about two ninety one, which is extremely
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low for a forcing fastball, and the mist rate is thirty percent, So
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the average mis rate in Major League Baseball for a four team is around twenty
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one percent and he's at thirty percent. And when you look at his movement
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profile, it's nothing special, Like I'm looking at it right now. He
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averages fourteen inches of induced vertical break and nine inches of horizontal like almost dead
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center in the middle of an average moving fastball. But what he does do
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that's unique about it is he throws from a five foot three release height averages
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five to ten for fastball, so he's seven inches lower than the average fastball,
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and he also has an extension of over seven feet. Average is about
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six and a half feet, so he's getting a ton of extension towards home
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plate, so the ball's getting on them a little bit firmer with it already
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being ninety five plus and he's throwing it from a five foot three release height,
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So now that vertical approach angle at the top of the zone is going
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to perform extremely well, which is why despite having average movement, these other
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characteristics allow it to play up with high miss as well as weak contact.
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So it was a really good pitch from a performance standpoint. And like one
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thing I did find, and it wasn't necessarily about the fastball, but just
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something in general that he always tries to do is he's trying to come into
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every season with something new, whether it's a new pitch, changing the usage,
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improving a current pitch, Like he wants to come into spring training each
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year with a new weapon that hitters haven't seen before. And I thought that
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was a really cool perspective with him being, you know, one of the
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top top starting pitches in baseball, like he's not satisfied with what got him
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to where he is now, he's always looking for an edge. He's always
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looking for something that he can adapt and improve on, and I think there's
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a really good learning lesson in there for a lot of players. And something
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else that was kind of interesting that he mentioned is he really leans heavily on
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their pitching coach, Caleb Cotham, Like he doesn't consider himself, you know,
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a pitching nerd quote unquote, or like someone that really likes to get
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into the numbers. Like he even said, like with some of his speed
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pitches, like he couldn't even tell you exactly how it moves as far as
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the numbers are, but he knows what the shape should look like, he
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knows what it needs to feel like, he knows how it needs to be
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spinning out of his hand, and he just trusts Caleb, their pitching coach,
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to help him with some of those things to make sure that he is
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on the right track. And he's really leaned heavily on him for some of
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the grip adjustments and some of those feels. So it's pretty cool just to
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see, you know, someone from his perspective, one of the top starting
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pitchers in baseball, always looking to improve as well as leaning and learning from
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people like his pitching coach. Yeah, that release high is crazy just because
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he's a pretty tall guy, right, Yeah, he's like six' four
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I think, so, like to be five to three at six four is
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pretty nuts me. It's basically straight across. Mean, he's he gets low
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to the ground and then that release hid is straight from the side. Oh
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okay, okay, so he's a little bit off to the side as far
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as what like like three quota. Yeah, yeah, I'll pull up a
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video at some point for this, but yeah, he's it's a pretty i
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wanna call him side arm, but it's definitely low three quarters and the arms
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basically straight across in line with the shoulders. Dang. So that's just pretty
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much just a vaa, just fossil. Yeah, that's it brown negative four
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degrees, which is well above average. Oh my god. Okay, that's
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awesome. All right. Next one, I'm gonna dive into Davish's sinker slash
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two seam. It's more of a it's more of a two seam really because
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it runs. It rides as well as runs. I'm not one on the
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exact metrics, but from what I look at, it's it's more of a
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freeze pitch than like a ground bowl pitch, And so how he grips it
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is it's kind of a one seam grip, and so he takes his two
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seams a traditional two seam, his fingers in between the two seams, and
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then he adjusts it a little bit so that his index finger is hooking the
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inside of one of the two scenes and the middle finger is on the outside
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of the other two scene. If you guys are watching, then you'll be
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able to see. But it's like this, and what he tries to do
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is the exact same thing with his for scene, he wants to have it
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completely pronated, went through the target, and as he releases it, he's
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trying to rip through the one of the scenes with his index finger, so
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like that, and so that creates That's what he says, creates the run
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that he gets. And another cue that he uses was that And I thought
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which was pretty cool, was that when he throws it, he imagines a
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glass wall extending from his front shoulder all the way to the left handed hit
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his hip, and so he throws. He throws the two seam a lot
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against lefties to try to freeze them and uh, front of them. And
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so what he does is like, all right, he imagines like a glass
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wall from his front shoulder to the left left handed hit his hip, and
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then he tries to stay on that for as long as possible. So he's
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even trying to like stay closed and then throw it as it's staying closed,
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And so I thought that was really interesting. I think it was just it's
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great because like when I when I used to pitch, like and my two
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seam would run on me, it would be because I just open up way
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too quickly and like my arm starts to come out to the side and it
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would just I'll just miss onside. And so I think that's what he's trying
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to do, is like he's trying to stay closed for as long as possible
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so that he can stay online and throw it at the left handed hit his
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hip so that it comes back and freezes the hit her. So I thought
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that was pretty cool. Yeah, I forget who it was, but he
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mentioned he tweeted something out the reason he developed that front hip syncer was for
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a specific batter. I think it was either Bryce Harper or someone. It
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was a really good left handed hitter, and I don't know if it was
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a joke, but I took it as serious, like he literally developed that
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front hip sincer purely because of this specific batter doing damage against him and he
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needed to find another weapon. Have you seen that? Do you know what
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I'm talking about? Yeah? I think was it Joey Votto? I thought
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it might have been Votto. I wasn't positive, but yet that makes sense.
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I think it was Votto. Yes, yeah, yeah, no,
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I I think I did see that tweet. He was like, I can
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never get Joey Votto out, so I had to get something to throw against
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it. And it was funny, like, uh, the Ranges at the
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time, I think they saw that and they were like, hey, like
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I think the tweet was something like, oh, you Davish was watching Joey
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Voo from the dogout and seeing like how he can get him out, and
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then he developed and developed that pitch, and so the Rangers were like,
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all right, guys, we're all gonna see all the hitter is because you
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never know what you can pick up from these hit is, and so like
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sometimes we will lift during the games, but then they'll cancel that and be
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like, all right, every single pitch is watching the game. So yeah,
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no, that was that was really cool. And it's just amazing how
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he can just throw on these pitches like that. Oh, it's incredible.
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You have to have such good feel for just for the baseball, just to
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be able to manipulate in multiple ways. I mean, like you said,
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he has seven pitches, but he probably has ten or eleven pitches in his
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head because there's just minor adjustine that he's making depending on what he wants the
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pitch to do. Yeah, and I couldn't find anything on a sincup,
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but I feel like he throws a sinker as well. This is his two
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scene, but uh yeah, I think, yeah, he just has so
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many variations of each pitch. Yeah for sure. All right, I'll dive
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into mister Wheeler's sinker and his pretty traditional grip, Like most of his grips
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are honestly pretty traditional. But he just is a master at spinning it the
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way you want it to spin to get the movement that you want. So
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his sinker he holds just like this, so a regular two scene, but
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he has his fingers close together. They're on like the inside of the seam,
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so they're not super wide or on top of them. They're basically right
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together with a tiny bit of space and the thumb is underneath. And when
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he throws this pitch, he's trying to have this part of the ball.
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So if I'm throwing this with the major League logo on the inside part of
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the ball, he wants that major League logo slightly facing him and on top
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of the ball. So for him being a right hander, it'd be on
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the top left corner slightly facing him. That's the way he wants the ball
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to be spinning, and that's what allows it to get that late action and
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to utilize the seams to his advantage. So from a movement perspective, sinker
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averages about six and a half inches of induced vertical break and seventeen inches of
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horizontal good movement. For his release height, it's it's not like overwhelming,
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right because he has with a sinker, it's a five foot two release sight.
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Lower release sights typically you can sink the ball a little bit easier.
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But what does make this unique is that number one, it's much different from
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his four seam, but number two, he's getting a lot of late action
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and a lot of seam effects on this pitch because out of the hand.
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It's spinning at one point thirty, but it's moving as if it's at two
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fifteen. So the ball has forty five minutes of deviation between the tilt out
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of his hand and how it's actually moving. So that's just when you watch
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video of him, like, you can see late action on that pitch,
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and even though it's not getting to you know, let's say zero or one
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inch of induced vertical break, it's happening really late. It's really sharp,
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and he's able to be really effective with it. Once again, throwing this
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pitch, you know, ninety five plus that always helps, and then plus
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extension on top of that, and he's really mastered the usage aspect. So
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like Sinkers, he exclusively throws it to right ease. He doesn't throw it
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to lefties at all, except for maybe just a show me pitch if it's
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a lone ab But primarily he's only throwing this to right handers because he knows
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that that's going to perform the best. And then he uses that at four
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seamer as his primary fastball against lefties. Awesome, awesome, all right,
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Well, which one should I dive into next? Do you think maybe he
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let go cutters. Cutters, Okay, awesome. So Davis throws two cutters,
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and I think like tend to different variations of one of them. So
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but we'll just go through the two main ones. So the first one is
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he grips a four seam and then he just pre tilts it just a little
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bit so his fingers are on the outside of the bowl just a tiny bit.
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And so this is his hard cutter, and he doesn't try to manipulate
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it at all. He just throws it just like a four seam. And
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what he's trying to do is just get a little bit of cut. This
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is he's not trying to get some crazy movement or anything. This is actually
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the same grip as Yoshinobu Yamamoto, and his mentality with it is like,
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I don't even care if it cuts or not. I'm just gonna try to
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throw it as hot as I can with this pitch. And so, yeah,
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they run it out to the low nineties even like mid nineties sometimes,
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and yeah, I think they use it mainly against the lefties to try to
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jam them. But his second cut a grip, This is his main cut
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out grip. So what he does is he goes from the two scene,
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he goes a little bit to the side, and so I don't know how
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to describe this, but hopefully you can see it a little bit basically on
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the outside part of a two seam, or like the easiest way to think
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about it is like grip a four seam fastball with the horseshoe on the inside
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and then slightly turn the ball inwards and then that gives you like that angle.
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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's a
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good one. But anyway, he throws this and his cue with it.
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It's funny how he describes it is as soon as he tries to release it,
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he thinks, like the seams that are on his index and middle finger
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is like a cliff, and so he's trying to hang onto it like he's
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hanging off a cliff. So it's like hanging on for the life pretty much.
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So it's just like squeezing as hot as he can as he releases.
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And this kind is kind of interesting because it's not a traditional cutter. It's
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more like it's more like a gyro slider. But at one point in his
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career, like twenty twenty one, he was throwing this cutter like over fifty
19:41
percent of the time, and he would just abuse it and he would perform
19:45
well. So yeah, that's how he throws it. He comes here and
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he just tries to squeeze as hot as he can and then it comes out
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more like gyro. Another cue that he used was when he was try to
20:00
squeeze your ring finger, and so what he said was like, all right,
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if you're right here and you don't have a bowl in your hand and
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you squeeze your ring finger, what happens to your middle finger? It like
20:17
it comes down, it like contracts. And so sometimes he thinks about that
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as well. It's just like, all right, I'm gonna squeeze my ring
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finger and when I do that, the middle finger is going to come down,
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and then it's going to create this spin as well. So those are
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the two cues that he uses for his cutter and the two grips that he
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uses as well. I love that he's a very cerebral guy, like he's
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he's a tinker, he's a thinker. It's it's pretty cool to listen to
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you talk about it. And then of course he's pretty open with a lot
20:48
of this stuff, which is awesome. So Zach wheeler. He throws a
20:52
cutter as well. His grip fairly traditional cutter grip. I would say it's
20:56
one of like two or three variations that I often see. So obviously I'm
21:00
doing a left handed version. Unfortunately, it just doesn't feel right to hold
21:02
the ball right handed. But he is holding it like this right here.
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So if we're going across the tracks, the two seam tracks, he's slightly
21:11
to the right, and me being left handed, I'm slightly to the left.
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That middle finger is up against the seam and that index is on top
21:18
of the seam like this, And all he's doing is he's just ripping through
21:22
the outside part of the ball and he's trying to create this bullet spin like
21:26
this, and his has a little bit of positive vert to. It's eight
21:29
VB with one inch of glove side movement, so like it. It's more
21:32
of a true cutter, especially from his release height, rather than like a
21:36
gyro slider, which some people call their pitches cutters, and they're really sliders,
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Like I would say, this is more of a traditional cutter. It's
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ninety one miles an hour. It's been up to ninety five. Like I
21:45
said, decent vert on the pitch, and this pitch isn't really like one
21:48
of his main weapons. I would say this is a pitch that he uses
21:52
as a setup pitch for his other pitches. So he throws this about eighteen
21:56
percent of the time to lefties. He doesn't throw it to righties at all.
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It's only to lefties, and it's really a purpose pitch, like he
22:02
throws it up and in primarily, and my guess is that he's using that
22:04
to set up his splitter or his breaking ball down below the zone or if
22:08
it's like you know, say it's a bridge count it's one to one or
22:12
even two to one behind in the count, something that he can just throw
22:15
a running in on the hands that's just a little bit different from his for
22:17
seam Like that's how he's trying to utilize this pitch. But it still performs
22:21
decently well, like doesn't get a ton of miss, but it's just because
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he's throwing it up and in. It's not going to get a ton of
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miss in that location. It's about sixteen percent and then the expected woe but
22:27
is right around three hundred, which isn't bad, but for him and his
22:30
standards, it's one of his worst performing pitches or it is his worst performing
22:33
pitch. But once again, not every pitch needs to be a swing and
22:37
mispitch. It doesn't need to be a wipeout pitch. If it compliments the
22:41
rest of your arsenal, it makes everything else play better. That pitch can
22:44
still serve a purpose, and he's a great example of the cutter being that
22:48
pitch for him. Yeah, I just want to go back to how uh
22:57
cerebral dabbish is real quick. And I know I tweeted about this a little
23:03
bit and I wrote a thread about it, but for those who don't know
23:08
about this, I think this will be pretty interesting. So, so Dabage
23:15
put out like a video on his YouTube channel once and he was like,
23:18
I think my career is done, and then that was the title of the
23:23
YouTube view and everyone was freaking out, like what the hell? And the
23:27
video is about him? It was pretty much just a bullpen of him and
23:33
like he had back command, like terrible command, and then everyone was like
23:37
damn, like that doesn't look good. But then a couple months later he
23:41
go he posts another video saying how I drastically improved my command and so and
23:49
I watched that it's all in Japanese, unfortunately, but I watched that,
23:53
and to summarize, he pretty much built two completely different the deliveries. And
24:00
so he has his pitching delivery and he also has his catch blade delivery and
24:06
his catch Blaye delivery was like super relaxed, like more just like less like
24:12
crisp, and his pitching delivery was what his pitching delivery is. It's at
24:18
full speed, it's crisp, it's everything like that. And so what he
24:22
said was and why he did this was because he said that if you're constantly
24:26
throwing in a in the same way, then your brain kind of gets bored
24:33
of that movement and so it starts to create problems that you never had,
24:37
and it subconsciously like alters the pitching mechanics just to create a stimulus, and
24:45
then that causes issues down the line. And so Darvish kind of noticed this,
24:51
and it's like, Okay, so if I have two pitching deliveries,
24:55
then the stimulus of the brain is always going to be fresh, and so
24:59
I'm not going to have these weird problems that come up because you know,
25:06
like the brain's seeking a stimulus. And I kind of felt this in my
25:08
career as well. Like when you're throwing the same way all the time,
25:12
like some stuff just starts to feel like out of whack. And so we
25:17
preach a lot of the athletic throws and being athletic and trying new stuff.
25:22
And you know, the Command episode was great for this. We talked a
25:25
lot about this. But yeah, that's where I got this from. When
25:30
I when I saw his video, I was like, all right, I'm
25:33
incorporating it. And I don't think it drastically improved my command as much as
25:40
it did for him. I wish it did, but I think it did
25:42
improve it a little bit. And so yeah, that's another cool thing about
25:47
Davish. Yeah, I mean it's just a great example of just his thought
25:51
process and how he adjusts with everything. Does it with his pitch, gripts,
25:53
does it with his delivery, Like that's just the way he operates and
25:56
what works for him. And I think that's really cool. Well, let's
26:00
dive into the next pitch. We got sweepers next. So Davish is right
26:04
here, So what is it? Just hooking the horseshoe pretty much. And
26:11
so one thing that he does make sure of though, is that his thumb
26:17
is like pretty high up it's like up here, And what he says is
26:21
that he feels like he can move his wrist a lot better when he has
26:25
his thumb in this position versus like the traditional under the bold type grip,
26:32
and so he grips it really high up here. And he does have a
26:36
couple variations of how he throws his sliders or sweepers, and the one that
26:42
I really thought was super interesting was he tries to throw like a hand of
26:48
God type like rising sweeper, and so how he does this is pretty much
26:55
he is still the same grip, but it's a little bit shallow. He
27:00
hooks it a little bit shallower, He's not the ball isn't like deep in
27:04
his hand. It's a little bit shallower up here. And then he tries
27:10
to when he throws it, he's trying to push it diagonal and up like
27:15
that, and so he's trying to spin it more like diagonally up instead of
27:21
just straight sideways. And I'm not sure if he's throwing that too often and
27:26
if he still throwing it, but I know in the WBC when he played,
27:33
he was throwing it and he was really tinkering with it. I don't
27:36
know, maybe he would have. He might have thrown it in the gains
27:38
or something to try it out against like when he pitched. But yeah,
27:44
for sweeper, just the traditional he's hooking the horseshoe his thumbs up and he's
27:52
just getting right around it to try to create that side spin right here.
27:56
And another one that I thought was interesting that I've found was that when he
28:03
was teammates with Shane Bieber. I don't know, maybe he wasn't teammates with
28:10
Shane Baber, but somehow he got in contact with Shane Bieber and he was
28:12
like, I love you Kerbel, Like how do you throw that? And
28:17
Shane Bieber taught him how to throw his Kerbel and he would throw it with
28:19
the same cue, same grip, but it didn't really he didn't really like
28:25
that. And so he was like, what happens if I do the same
28:29
thing but for my slider, And so he created a spike sweeper and so
28:34
he started throwing this and it was harder. It came out much harder.
28:42
He was throwing it like mid to upper eighties, and it was a really
28:45
good pitch for him, and so I'm pretty sure he added it straight into
28:49
his repertoire. But yeah, it's just another one of those variations that he
28:56
has. So yeah, he pretty much has three different variations of sweep is
29:02
a rising one, a normal sweeper, and then a spike sweeper. That's
29:08
great. Wheeler actually throws a very similar one, well one of those variations.
29:14
So he's hooking the horseshoe the same exact way, so that middle fingers
29:18
up against the horseshoe. He doesn't spike his index, but it is like
29:22
hugging it super close. The thumb is in what I would say just a
29:25
normal position, not super high, not super low. But you made a
29:29
really good point about the thumb being higher because that actually can help guys supinate
29:33
a little bit better and get around that pitch more, which can be really
29:36
helpful if, like you, struggle with staying behind it. So like two
29:38
things that can help with the movement on a sweep or if you're trying to
29:41
get more horizontal is exactly what Darvish does, move that thumb up. And
29:45
also the spike variation is going to allow you to do that as well.
29:48
So if you blend both of those, it potentially could be a pretty deadly
29:51
pitch. Like you darvishes, but Wheeler's just pretty traditional fingers together up against
29:55
that horseshoe with the middle finger thumb underneath the ball, not directly underneath,
29:59
not directly on the side, just kind of in a normal position like this,
30:03
And this is one of his best performing pitches. Throws it primarily against
30:07
righty's. He throws it about twenty one percent of the time against righty's,
30:10
against lefties only three percent, So it's kind of like some of his other
30:12
pitches, like his sinker. Hardly ever throws it to the lefties. Same
30:15
with the sweeper. Hardly ever throws it unless he really needs it. It's
30:18
been a long at bad or it's late in the game and he hasn't shown
30:21
that shown it to him yet, but from a performance standpoint, it's been
30:25
ridiculous against righty's. He expected. Wilba is one seventy three, which is
30:29
just super super low. Mys rate isn't crazy high. It's at thirty four
30:33
percent, so it's about average, but still a good mystery and getting incredible
30:37
results from a weak contact standpoint and just generally good results. Isn't like a
30:41
crazy moving pitch. It's not like the fifteen plus type sweepers. His has
30:45
positive vert at four VB and then ten inches of horizontal movement, so it's
30:49
a little bit more unique than your typical sweeper, Like most sweepers are closer
30:52
to the zero vertical break line with fifteen inches of horizontal or more. He's
30:56
got a little bit more lyft on it and a little bit less horizontal,
31:00
and then the velo on it is a little bit harder than average too.
31:03
It's at eighty four eighty five, so it's a It's a good pitch.
31:04
He locates it extremely well down into the glove side and he uses it in
31:08
optimal situations like righties and complimenting that with his sinker. Is that a new
31:15
pitch that he is? That pretty new pitch he started throwing. He said
31:19
he's been tinkering with it for a few years, so I think before Cougham
31:23
or before he got to the Phillies, because he was with the Mets before
31:26
the Phillies. He said he would like try to tinker with it, and
31:29
he's like he literally would just throw throw a few every once in a while.
31:33
But it wasn't until last year that Cougham really helped him with that pitch,
31:37
and like that was like his new pitch last year that he was really
31:40
trying to discover and work on, and then this year like he's made it
31:42
an effort to like throw more of them, to work on it more.
31:45
And he just said in an interview that I listened to that he feels really
31:48
comfortable with it now and now it's you know, one of his best performing
31:51
pitches. Mmmm. Yeah. Because I always remember him as being a big
31:56
uh, big velo guy with a garroslow right, like more of a Jyro
32:01
slider. Yeah, awesome. All right, I'm going to dive into should
32:07
we do curbels? Let's do it? Yeah? Okay, So again,
32:13
Darvish has two variations of this pitch. His first one is a traditional knuckle
32:21
curve grip, and so his on the lace right here with his middle finger,
32:24
his index finger spiked and his thumb is on this on the opposite scene,
32:31
and so he's trying to throw it as hard as he can. One
32:36
of his cues is that when he was teammates with Craig Kimbrel, he was
32:40
like, all right, I'm going to try to get your curbyl. Can't
32:45
teach me how to throw your curbyl. And so they were trying to they
32:49
were working on it together, and one of the big things was instead of
32:52
just pulling down on the ball with your hand and your arm, you try
32:59
to pull down with your whole body, so it's like you're bringing your whole
33:02
body down to rip through the scene. And when Dava started doing that,
33:08
his curveball got harder and sharper. I don't know. I don't know if
33:14
it created more movement, but he definitely talked about how it became just a
33:19
more effective pitch because it was tunneling better and it was coming out harder and
33:22
it was sharper. The next the next variation that it throws is his Epha
33:30
slash slowcove, and I love this pitch if you ever see it, it's
33:35
it's a crazy pitch. But he throws it the same grip, except his
33:40
not spiking anymore. And how he releases it is he tries to release it
33:46
behind his head and so he's trying to spin it behind his head and then
33:52
it comes out and then it just goes into the strike zone. I guess
33:58
it's it's such a hard pitch. The throw I don't think I could throw
34:01
it. I was I was more like side on, so like that would
34:06
be a very tough pitch to throw, but just having that kind of feel
34:08
behind your head is like, is amazing. And he said that one of
34:14
the ways that he trains it is just play and catch at really short distances.
34:19
And so he would go out there and you know, like in between
34:24
like thirty and fifty feet and he would just try to throw kerbels and it
34:29
forces him to get that rotation and get it down so that it doesn't pop
34:32
out. And I think that's kind of one of the ways that he trained
34:37
his slow curve and maybe his knuckle clove as well, but definitely a slow
34:42
coove just to get the feel for popping out behind him and then go into
34:46
the target. And so those were two grips and cues. Yeah, I'm
34:51
a big fan of curveballs from a short distance because, like you said,
34:53
it forces you to actually spin that ball out front, like in order to
34:58
get it to move or have the right spin from that close you have to
35:00
be doing a lot of things right. So that's a great great drill for
35:02
guys to do, is just throwing curveballs from shorter distances. So Wheeler throws
35:07
once again, it's a pretty normal grip. There's nothing crazy about it.
35:12
So similar to his cutter grip. So his cutter grip, he's further back
35:15
across the tracks like this. The curveball, he climbs up further, so
35:20
his middle finger is up against the scene like this, and then the index
35:23
finger is just up against the middle finger like so. Then the thumb is
35:28
just underneath the ball and it's fairly deep in his hand, and he's just
35:30
trying to get that middle finger to the front of the baseball to create top
35:34
spin on this pitch. From a movement standpoint, it's about average. From
35:37
a movement standpoint, it's negative nine VB has seven inches of horizontal movement.
35:42
So just your traditional curveball. It's not super depthy or super twelve six.
35:45
It's not, you know, more of a slurvy type pitch. It's kind
35:49
of just in the middle, just a regular curball, a little bit of
35:51
death, little bit of horizontal to it. Primarily throws this pitch to lefties
35:55
once again, like he optimizes his pitch usage to a t. He's using
35:59
this ball to left He's about fourteen percent of the time. Riotes he throws
36:02
at four percent of the time and like even fourteen percent is not crazy high,
36:07
even for lefties. So that just tells me that this is just more
36:09
of like a pitch that he mixes in every once in a while just to
36:12
keep them honest, maybe to pair it with a high fastball or to steal
36:15
a strike early in the count. Although it's not like a huge strike pitch
36:17
for me. He only throws it for a strike fifty five percent of the
36:20
time and it's in zone twenty eight percent of the time, So twenty eight
36:23
percent is really low. Average in the Major leagus for a curveball is like
36:27
forty two forty three percent, and then average strike percentage you want that above
36:30
sixty percent. So that could also be a reason he's not throwing it much.
36:32
Maybe he just doesn't have as good a feel for it this year as
36:35
he has in the past. But when he does throw it, it's getting
36:37
decent results. To eighty five expected wOBA misrate is about average at thirty six
36:43
percent. But once again, like not every pitch needs to be your best
36:46
pitch, Like as long as it is setting up other pitches or it's serving
36:50
a purpose in some way, there's still value in that pitch. And I
36:52
would say that the curveball does serve that purpose, whether it's you know,
36:55
setting up his fastball a little bit more or throwing his splitter off of it,
37:00
which we'll get to next. But it's just it's still a decent performing
37:02
pitch. I just think he would obviously like to throw this one in zone
37:06
a little bit more awesome. What would you say is his best pitch from
37:13
a performance standpoint, it's the sweeper, But I would actually say his four
37:17
team is probably his best pitch overall, because it's a weapon to both side
37:22
hitters. It's a weapon of lefties, and it's a weapon of righties.
37:24
Versus that every single other pitch he optimizes it to either a lefty or a
37:30
righty. The four team is the only one that he throws out a high
37:31
rate to lefties and righties. And how about like stuff plus ones? Is
37:37
that the same? That's a good question. When as you start talking about
37:42
Darvish's splitter, I'll look that up and see what the plus looks like.
37:45
All right, sounds good? All right, Well I don't have too much
37:50
on this, but Davis throws a splitter and a changeup, and so you
37:58
know, Davis isn't like one of those Jackese guys with like a crazy splitter,
38:01
just like uh Senga or Yamamoto or even Imanaga. He has a really
38:09
good splitter as well. This is kind of a low usage pitch for him,
38:15
and he says he grips it like this, so his index finger is
38:22
hooking one scene and the middle finger is on no seams, and he tries
38:27
to pull on that index finger the scene that's on the index finger, and
38:36
he said he doesn't really know where how it's gonna move, just because he
38:39
has a supernation bias, and so when he throws it, it comes out
38:45
a little bit gyroi, and so his movement isn't really that consistent with it,
38:52
but he says it's still a good weapon and he still uses it.
38:55
And for his change up, it's basically his two seam, so his on
39:04
the two seams. He tilts it just a little bit so his index finger
39:07
is hooking one of the seams and his middle finger is on the outside of
39:12
the other seam, and then he just shifts it over to a change up,
39:16
so instead of his index finger hooking the seam, it is the middle
39:20
finger. And again he has a hard time pronating, and so what he
39:27
was saying was that he presets his pronation so when he's in his glove,
39:32
I don't actually I don't know if it's in his glove or when it's coming
39:36
back, but he makes sure that it's pre set it to a pronation,
39:39
so it's like this before he's throwing and then it comes through and then he
39:45
just tries to throw it as hot as he can, so he doesn't have
39:46
to think about, oh I need to pronate at release or anything. It's
39:50
just I'm gonna preset it and then just throw it like a fastball. And
39:54
again, these are lower usage pitches for him, but I'm I mean,
40:00
he still uses them and it's still there's still pretty good weapons for him.
40:06
Yeah, for sure, I actually like that queue, or I like it
40:08
for some guys, especially if there's someone that is a pronator. I actually
40:10
used to think about that too. Is like basically throw the circle at the
40:15
catcher, which allows you to preset that that pronation position a little bit earlier,
40:20
and it just can make it easier just to rip from that position.
40:22
So definitely something for guys to play around with, especially if you're more of
40:24
a pronator. It could allow you to get through the inside part of the
40:27
ball a little bit more to get a little bit more run in depth on
40:30
it. Yeah, okay, so I looked up those pitches stuff plus y
40:36
So for those that aren't familiar with stuff, plus one hundred is average.
40:39
Anything above one hundred is above average. Anything below it would be below average
40:44
by a certain percentage point. So his fastball is average according to this,
40:47
it's a one oh one. His sinker is higher than his four team at
40:52
one oh nine, the cutters below average at ninety five, the splitter,
40:55
which I'm going to talk about a second is below average at ninety six,
40:59
and then the sweet is his best one at one twenty eight, which is
41:01
super super high, and I'm guessing it's because of the v low and just
41:04
the unique vert on it with the horizontal. And then his curveball is actually
41:08
at a one to fourteen. If I'm reading these right, these labels are
41:12
different than what I normally look at. Is see you curveball yep, yep.
41:16
Yeah, so one fourteen for that pitch. But one thing that I
41:19
will say about Steff plus that I think they could do a better job.
41:22
And I think you know sarahs who has talked about this, who who does
41:24
the steft plus numbers? Is it would be better if it was split up
41:28
by batter handedness, because certain pitches are going to be much better against rieties
41:31
versus lefties and vice versa. So like, looking at it in general isn't
41:36
necessarily the best way to look at an arsenal because like, for example,
41:39
like according to this, the sweeper and the sinker are two of his better
41:45
pitches, but he only throws sinkers varieties, and he only throws sweepers soarieties.
41:47
So like if we blended that in with lefties as well, I wonder
41:51
if that would change the number to it is at all. But I mean,
41:53
obviously this isn't a performance based stat It's purely based off of the stuff.
41:59
But I think that those numbers can be a little bit skewed because I
42:01
don't think he necessarily can or should throw those pitches at a higher rate too
42:06
opposite handed hitters, even though the stuff plus numbers are higher. Do you
42:08
agree with that or what do you think about that? Yeah? I agree
42:12
with that, and I think so all of his stuff plus n'mas are probably
42:15
boosted because he throws so hard, right right? Yeah, No, that
42:20
that's interesting. I always thought about like, obviously there are pitches that I'm
42:24
more effective to rights and lefties. But I was like, okay, so
42:30
if you're only throwing like sink a slidea to righty's but you do, but
42:35
you throw five pitches, then the hitter can pretty much eliminate all the other
42:38
pitches, Like, wouldn't that make it easier? I don't know, it
42:43
kind of like mess in my head a little bit. Well, I agree,
42:45
yes, especially now because everyone's trying to optimize their arsenal the best they
42:50
can or optimize their usage. And I think it's just because over you know,
42:53
several years, the data is pointed to sinkers performed better to the same
42:58
side hitter, same with sweepers, and you could go down the gauntlet of
43:00
all the pitches of which side they perform better against. But you're right,
43:04
you would think if you literally just throw certain pitches to one hand hitters and
43:07
not to the other, then you could eliminate them. So that's where I
43:10
think you probably, especially as the start, you need to have at least
43:14
three options to each guy. Like if it's only two pitches, I mean,
43:16
flip a coin. They can just guess, and they're probably going to
43:20
guess right depending on what the count is. But I think that's where some
43:22
of those smaller percentages come in. Like Wheeler, for example, he throws
43:27
the sweeper four or five percent of the time to lefties. He throws a
43:30
sinker six seven percent of the time to left east as well. It's like
43:34
just enough maybe to put it in the back of their head, Like I
43:37
think zero percent probably wouldn't be good, but neither would fifteen to twenty percent,
43:40
right, But it's like probably just finding that happy medium of throwing it
43:45
just enough so it's in the back of their mind that you might throw it
43:46
to them in that at bat. I don't know, That's just that's a
43:50
good thought though, and that's something probably we should ask some hitting coaches of
43:53
what their thoughts are on that. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, our pitch
43:58
you grows. It's pretty much is like, yeah, those those pitches that
44:00
have tiny usages in the big leagues, they only throw that when like it's
44:07
like a long at bat and they just need to need to have something there.
44:10
And so I thought that was pretty interesting. But yeah, even with
44:14
the when I was playing, we had a an arsenal full righties and then
44:17
an arsenal for lefties, and so some of us even the statas was all
44:22
right, you'll full seam slider only to righties and lefties it was full seem
44:27
change up only, and so yeah, it was. It was interesting too.
44:34
It's interesting to see if it like makes it easier or hotter and hit
44:37
is. But yeah, I think overall, just throw your best pitch into
44:44
the the righty of lefty for sure, Like I'm looking at Wheeler's arsenal right
44:49
now. So against righties he throws a ton of fastball as a righties like
44:53
between the four seam and the sinkers, like between the fastball and the sinker,
44:57
it adds up to seventy percent usage. Against right hand batters, he
45:00
throws the four seam thirty thirty five percent or thirty six percent of the time,
45:04
in the sinker thirty four percent of the time, no cutters, curveball
45:08
at five percent, and then the sweeper at twenty one percent, and then
45:12
the split at four percent. So basically against rities it's four seamer, sinkers
45:15
and sweepers. Against lefties he goes forty six percent fastballs, six and a
45:21
half percent sinkers, eighteen percent cutter, fourteen percent curveball, three percent sweeper,
45:25
twelve percent split. So it's like primarily fastballs and then kind of a
45:30
fairly even split between the cutter, curveball, and the split, and then
45:35
sprinkle in the sinker and the sweeper. So like it does feel like when
45:38
guys have like this, this much of this big of an arsenal, it
45:42
seems like against opposite handed hitters, they tend to mix in more of their
45:45
pitches. Versus same sided hitters, it tends to get more like two or
45:49
three pitches at least, that's what I've noticed, especially with him, Like
45:52
it's three pitches against righty's, but two of them are fastballs, the other
45:55
one is a sweeper. Against lefties, He's throwing almost every type of shape
46:00
at them in some way. But before you know, before I continue on
46:06
a tangent, I'll dive into his splitter, his last pitch type, and
46:08
this one is a newer pitch for him. So he started throwing it,
46:13
I think a couple of years ago. He says he's always had it,
46:15
but like he literally said, he would throw it five to ten times a
46:19
season, not not a game a season, Like it was just like he
46:22
would hardly ever throw and he used an example of a lefty. It might
46:24
have been Joey Vado. Again, there's someone maybe Bryce arper Dick, some
46:28
some good left handed hitter. He's like he would just randomly throw it against
46:30
the batter like that to show them something different and just pray that they swing
46:35
and miss at it. Like that was literally what he said on an interview
46:37
once So not a lot of confidence in that pitch in the past. This
46:42
year he changed his grip and once again he like credits Cougham a lot for
46:45
helping them with the development of his pitches, especially the splitter, and he
46:49
made a conscious effort in spring training that like this was gonna be his pitch
46:52
that he was going to work on and that he was going to try to
46:52
throw more this year, just like he did the sweeper the previous year.
46:57
So the grip is like this. So if you look at the tracks of
47:00
the baseball here, he splits those tracks like that and then puts his middle
47:06
finger, ring finger, and pinky all together just like this, so they're
47:10
all together, and then he's hooking a circle with his index finger and thumb.
47:16
I forget where the thumb is. I want to say, the thumb
47:19
is like just in a normal position, like along the seam or around the
47:22
seam like this, and that middle finger is actually up on the seam a
47:25
little bit as well, just like this. So just like this, and
47:30
he's just just trying to throw it through through that split, create a little
47:34
bit of side spin and hopefully get a little bit of seam effects like he
47:36
does with his sinker. And it's actually done pretty well. And he's using
47:40
it. Mean I wouldn't say he's using it a ton. I mean he's
47:42
using it twelve percent to lefties, four percent aarieties. But compared to throwing
47:45
it, you know, like he said five to ten times a year,
47:49
that's a pretty big jump. So I'm actually gonna pull up the performance numbers
47:52
on it, and it is performing extremely well. Actually didn't realize it was
48:00
performing this will he might want to throw this more. He has an expected
48:01
wOBA of one eighty nine on it, which is his best performing pitch out
48:07
of all of his pitches. So one eighty nine expected wOBA in a misrate
48:09
of thirty nine percent, so it's actually his highest mispitch as well. Now,
48:14
the drawback, which I'm guessing is why he doesn't throw it a ton
48:16
is the strike rate is fifty seven percent, so once again, we want
48:20
our pitches to be sixty percent or higher. A little bit below average at
48:22
fifty seven percent, but still like with the way he's performing, Like I
48:27
would think the more he throws it, the better it's going to get from
48:29
a command standpoint. But it's it's doing well. I feel like it's accomplishing
48:32
what he wanted to do. This year, he's thrown it more. He's
48:35
thrown it one hundred and forty six times this year, so you know,
48:37
more than five to ten a season by a long shot, and it's become
48:42
a really good weapon for him despite having honestly not that great a movement.
48:45
I didn't go over the movement with it, but the movement on this pitch
48:50
is five and a half VB twelve and a half HB, which isn't terrible.
48:54
But like, remember he's got a lower slot typically lower slot eyes.
48:57
We need to have more depth on our changeups or our splitters. And I
49:00
said the stuff plus was ninety five or ninety six. I'm like that,
49:01
So even stuff plus has it at a blow average pitch from a movement standpoint.
49:06
But when you pair that with his fastball, so his fastball is fourteen
49:09
VB, this is five and a half. That's basically a nine inch difference
49:14
in vertical break. So now there is some separation there with a little bit
49:16
more horizontal not much. It's basically a straight down pitch. But location wise
49:22
it's perfect. It's down below the zone to the arm side. So that's
49:25
where like even if location or sorry, even if the stuff is a little
49:29
bit below average, if you're executing it well, if you are selling the
49:32
pitch it looks like a fastball out of the hand, you can still get
49:36
really good results with it. And this pitch is serving the purpose that he
49:38
wanted it to serve. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm looking through all
49:45
these pitch and I think I think we covered all of them, especially for
49:50
you, Dubvish. This does we all have any more? That's it?
49:52
It really doesn't. Maybe you kind of covered it already with the different variations.
49:57
But I have him having like a just a regular like not a sweeper,
50:01
but it's not a cutter. It's like different from that pitch. It's
50:04
like pulling it up. Yeah, might be that like the kada that he
50:10
throws because it gets it's like gyrowe. It's like zero VB or negative VB.
50:16
Yeah yeah, I have it at zero and like six or seven HB.
50:22
Yeah yeah, that's the kuta that he throws. It's it's super interesting
50:27
because I was actually trying to learn that pitch. And you know, I
50:31
don't know if it's actually a cutter, but I think he calls it that,
50:35
and it's tagged as actually, I don't know if it's tagged as sliders
50:38
on true media. It's a slider on here. So so what does he
50:42
called this actual cutter? Sorry? What what is he called the actual cutter?
50:46
Because he has a cutter that's eleven VB and zero HB. Then the
50:50
slider is zero VB five HB Yeah yeah, I think I think that's just
50:53
like the Hotta the Hotta cut okay, yeah, and then the this is
51:00
his like main cut up because his huge usage with this one would like the
51:05
traditional slider type movement. One is super high, right, yeah, twenty
51:12
five percent, and I think that was like way high like previous years.
51:15
I know he throws this possible a lot more now, so not too much,
51:20
honestly, he does it. Uh, so his usage is foreseen twenty
51:23
two percent of the time, sinker fifteen percent, cutter six percent, curveball
51:30
thirteen percent, slider twenty six percent, sweeper ten percent, and then the
51:35
splitter eight percent. Oh damn. So he's got a pretty balanced Yeah,
51:40
repatoil right now, although he hasn't pitched it ten this year, so I'd
51:43
probably better look at a previous year. But yeah, I don't personal stuff
51:45
going on. I know, I don't know what the details are, but
51:47
I know he might not pitch the rest of the season. Oh really,
51:52
Yeah, they didn't say what it was. I saw some article though,
51:53
but he's he's, uh, what's it called when or what's the list called
51:58
when? It's like for I personal reasons? Oh like not at maybe it
52:04
was restricted list something. He's not getting paid. I know that. He's
52:07
like, he's just yeah, he's he's taken time for some personal matters,
52:09
is what they said. And they said he potentially is out for the season.
52:13
Damn. I actually went to a Padres game and I was really hoping
52:15
it was there and like maybe he'll throw. But yeah, he said that
52:21
he was out, So I thought it was just like a one day thing.
52:23
But I didn't know it was that serious. Yeah, I mean I
52:27
could be wrong, though, quote me honest, I I saw something else
52:29
on Twitter that mentioned like it could be long term. Yeah, but cool.
52:34
So that's all the pitches for both these guys. But I love these
52:37
types of episodes. It's fun just to learn how different guys throw out what
52:39
their cues are and and I think it's just very actionable for the listeners,
52:44
whether you're a player or coach, like you can apply this to yourself or
52:45
to your players and start experimenting. Yep, that was good, awesome,
52:51
that's the pod.