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Transcript

How Saying Yes to Open Doors Led Arian Ghiacy from a Filing Cabinet to Nearly Two Decades in Nonprofit Leadership · I Don't Know You

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Matt,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: and welcome to my recorded conversations for I Don't Know You,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: my search in learning from leaders about their stories and applying their lessons
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: to my own journey as I seek to better understand myself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy what you hear or have a guest you'd like me to ask on, I'd love to hear from you.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can shoot me a DM,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: subscribe wherever you listen to this,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: share it with a friend, and follow me for more of this kind of content.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm joined by Arian Ghiacci.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: He spent almost two decades in the nonprofit marketing and fundraising world,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: from the Orange County Rescue Mission to Friendly Center to where he is now
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: as he serves as the Director of Advancement at a classical school.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about how he ended up in this work,
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: what it actually looks like to listen for God's voice at every turn.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy it.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful that even before this conversation when we met the first time just
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: the generosity that you had and kind of sharing your story and my season
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: of life is I'm in transition in many ways and so I just found it really helpful
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: and was very grateful and thankful for you kind of sharing your story.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of seeing parallels of, okay,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: this is the type of life this guy has created for himself,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: and I am intrigued by the types of decisions that he's made,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: and how can I sort of not bolt that on, but like...
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Use some of his experience that he's done and shaped my life in similar ways
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: because I'm intrigued by like the journey that you're kind of creating for yourself.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I am curious,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: like kind of the upbringing that you had that allowed for like, I mean,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: obviously the journey of life has taken you in many directions and gone
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: in many ways.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: like how that started,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: like how you kind of grew up and what were some of the foundational Areas that like,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Have proven to be lifelong learnings throughout each stage of your life.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very long-winded question.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Take that as you will.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I guess, you know, how far back do we want to go?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I was raised in a single-parent home.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And my parents were divorced when I was one.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so very early on, I...
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I had a relationship with Jesus and
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: I learned early on that
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: although my earthly father had failed,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: that I had a Heavenly Father who was always going to be there and never fail me.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that just really shaped who I was as a child and growing up.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just always clinging to Him and my faith in Him.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And really knowing,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: the verse Jeremiah 29 11 about the plans that He has for us,
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I held on to that because I felt from what society was telling me,
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: the odds are already stacked against me, right?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I grew up in a terrible neighborhood,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know, had People doing drugs around me and gangs and whatnot.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to joke that like,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: oh, if I stayed in that neighborhood, I'd probably be running a gang right now.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Where'd you grow up?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Anaheim, but not the best part of Anaheim.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I've been around Anaheim before.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I even told a friend of mine,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: His brother is a police officer in Anaheim and I mentioned to him
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: the neighborhood I grew up in and he's like,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: you grew up there and you're still alive?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So did you get out of there?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: When did you move from there?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so we moved from that neighborhood to a better one.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is you and your mom?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and my older brother when I was in sixth grade.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason we did that was because I was already getting bused to
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: a different school on the other side of town because I was in,
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know, we call that the gate program here.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so in order to stay with my friends that I had at school going on
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: into junior high, we had to move closer to them.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways, thankfully we got out of that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then as college is approaching, I have no idea what am I going to major in.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so for the first couple of years, just went to a community college.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And thankfully, though,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: while I was there,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: my first year just attending the community college,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: got a job at Insight for Living, the radio ministry with Chuck Sundahl.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was based in Anaheim at the time.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually started in their bookstore and I was there for about a year and then
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: the HR director had come down one day to the bookstore and asked me,
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: if I had any extra time,
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: would I want to have a part time job working up in the marketing department
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: with them?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know what I was saying yes to.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're like 19?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was, yeah, 18, I think, still at this time.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just was like, sure.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so thankfully,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: because the college where I was going was in reasonable driving distance to inside
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: for living at the time, so I was able to make that work with my school schedule.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you were just taking Gen Ed classes or something?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Just taking Gen Ed,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: but also I come from a music background,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: so I was also very involved with the music department there with singing.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And but then a couple of years being there at Insight,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: that was when they made the decision that they were going to move to Texas.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: when they moved, I thought, well, I've been working at this nonprofit.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'll just find another job at another nonprofit now.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And at this time,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was also transitioning to go to Vanguard University and so just started to look
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: for
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Part-time jobs at a non-profit that I could work at while attending Vanguard and
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: then I ended up moving on to OC Rescue Mission and working in
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: the development department there.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Again, at the time, not really like having a firm trajectory.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just figured like, well, this is what I've done.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I'll keep doing it while I'm going
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: to school.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find like,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is the That's not the right word to use,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm curious,
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: at least in this season of Transition for me,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: where I'm trying to find roots and peace in whatever I'm doing,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: do you feel like you found some version of peace in that new job
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: at OC Rescue Mission while you were doing Vanguard?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or was it like, well, this just seems like the next thing because I have this other experience?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or were you thinking that deeply about it, I guess?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: feel like that time in my life for me was a struggle in terms of trying to find,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: like, God, what direction do you want me to go in?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like everyone else around me had these solid plans for their life and I didn't.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was just kind of going with the flow and going where I look back now like,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: oh, yeah, God was leading me.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time, like I couldn't see that.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was just open doors that you were saying yes to.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I did it.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Little did I know that God was on the other side of that door opening the door.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was just, sure, I'll work here and do this and go to school.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I stayed there for another year or so at OC Rescue Mission in their development department.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Even was able to bring some of the stuff I learned at Insight over to OC Rescue Mission.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I was writing the thank you letters.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I would have been 21 at this time.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Writing the thank you letters on behalf of the CEO at OC Rescue Mission
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: and responding to prayer requests that people were mailing in.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thankfully, at Vanguard, I was a religion pastoral major.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that was helping me write these things.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: The correspondence responding back to these people's prayer requests.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to find meaning in that and helping people through that.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Although I never met these people, but was able to pray for them.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was there another year or so and then took another summer job at...
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Was that doing the office management stuff?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: This was at a gospel track printing press.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't Pocket
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Testament League?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, so I was just sitting at the front desk, but I was entering donations that came in.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: So still very much in the same vein of I mean,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: and that's like one of the most intriguing things I think to me about your I mean,
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's easy to look back on everything once you've processed it and everything,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: but it seems like you did a really good job of unifying your life with your career,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: where it was like, oh,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am a religious studies major at Vanguard,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: and yeah,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to use that skill in this different application
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: With OC Rescue Mission or whatever,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: but it was like there was a high alignment of your like affinities and your gifting,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: but also like the purpose that you felt like you had.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I might be putting words in your mouth.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't see, like I said, hindsight.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did have a purpose, but I don't think I knew that yet.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't see that alignment the way you beautifully describe that right now.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I did not see that alignment.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Was there frustration in that season of like, why am I writing thank you notes for people?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, sure,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: that works for like,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm equipped for it because of the education I'm getting or whatever.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I did not find frustration in the work, no.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think it was me just wanting to,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to just figure out my purpose.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yet,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: even though maybe that was sitting there right in front of me,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I still struggled with that on the side.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I never was really bringing that into my work.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then when I was through with Vanguard,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: this is when I was working part-time as a worship pastor at my church.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, we had gotten a new pastor.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so, uh, I was, this is the church that I grew up in.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I, I grew up there and, um, uh, became the worship pastor there.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that your,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: that your mom had attend,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: like you and your mom had attended and your, older brother.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, at this point, um,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: My mom was no longer there, though.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then my brother was also, he was off at another church on staff somewhere.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I was... Coming back home.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like 24, 25 at this time.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as a worship pastor there.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I was there part-time.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then...
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: A friend of mine who I was roommates with,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: he got a phone call from our other friend who worked at an investment firm.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the friend at the investment firm was asking, hey, could you come and help at our office?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have this huge meeting happening tomorrow.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: We need help.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Could you just be there to help out?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they're asking my roommate this.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And his response was, well, I can't, I'm busy, but Arian's here.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to ask him?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he's got nothing better to do.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, oh, sure, I can be down there.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I go down to Newport Beach the next morning where the offices are.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I walk into the front lobby of the office suite.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then standing right there is the president and the vice president
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: of this boutique investment firm.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they both turned to me and they say, oh, are you Arian?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, yeah.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they felt so bad that I had come down that way.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, oh, we're so sorry.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: The meeting got canceled.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: But would you like to help around the office here?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: We'll give you some stuff to do and we'll pay you for the day.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, sure.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so they gave me some things to file.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, there was quite literally a filing cabinet that needed to be assembled.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I assembled that.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's got to have a job like that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: The good old, like, Alan Wrench assembly.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: My first internship, I was like, I'm so excited.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be, like, on set.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to be, like, working the camera and stuff.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, oh, no, can you, like, get coffee?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And can you, like, our...
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: My organization system is terrible.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just organize?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, this is not a joke.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a reason this is a stereotype.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So then come lunchtime,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: the president called me into his office and he asked me,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: how would you like to work here?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I first told him, oh, well, I already have a part-time job at my church.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, oh, that's okay.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: We'll work around your schedule.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought like, okay, great.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I also told him too, I said, just so you know,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing I know about the stock market is whatever I learned in high school economics.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not coming here with full knowledge of all of this.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, oh, it's OK. You'll learn while you're here.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that was just really interesting walking into that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then a year goes by.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And through the course of this year,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Was just feeling God telling me that my time at the church was coming to an end.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know when,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: but I just kept praying into that and trying to seek God's guidance on that.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: How did you initially hear that?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: There started to be,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: well, I guess initially there was some friction between the new pastor and myself.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started praying into that, like, well, is this where I need to be?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually ended up meeting with,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: I still every now and then saw my pastor Advisor back from Vanguard and I would go
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: and have coffee with him and I remember talking with him one time
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: and he gave me some good advice and he said to stay as long as you're able
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: to have these private disagreements but you can agree publicly but
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: the moment you cross that line
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: and you feel like you can no longer agree publicly you probably shouldn't be there
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: anymore.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I remained disagreeing privately with him.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then there did reach a point where I was like, I don't know that I can continue on.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really found myself then crying out to God.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was on a Sunday night.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just asking God, okay,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: if you want me to leave here,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you really want me to leave my church,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: this home church that I've been at my whole life,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I need another part-time job because I only have this other part-time job at
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: the investment firm.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so then the next morning I went into work.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: The president of the company was in New York at the time on a business trip.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he called me up and he said, hey, Arian,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: when I get back from this trip,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk to you about working full time for us.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was literally the next day after crying out to God the night before.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Incredible.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there again,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I took that as a sign as,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: OK, God is opening this door for me and I'm going to walk through that.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: So then I ended up being at the investment firm for the next,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: gosh, I think that was four or five years.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And people always say, oh, wow,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: that seems like a hard transition going from being in the nonprofit world
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: to suddenly now you're in this Investment firm, like for profit.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what I always tell people is that, well, yes,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: but what it really did was it really opened my eyes to the corporate world
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: and just how businesses are run and businesses are started and just the ebbs
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: and flows of the economy.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I was there in 2008 when the crash happened and the big mortgage bubble burst.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so what
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: was that like?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: thankfully,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: the president and the vice president there They were believers and
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: they operated
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: with a lot of grace
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: and humility and
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: even though we did have to scale back on things
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: and
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: We had a hedge fund at the time that then suffered because of the crash.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we did have to scale back.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was the last one left with the two of them in the end.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Had some ebbs and flows within the company itself and were trying different things.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: But like I said, in the end, it was...
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: They kept me on with them.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So then,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: there again,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: started to feel like, okay, I feel like it's my time to move on from this.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And actually,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I had a yearning, a desire to really go back into nonprofit because of all of this.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I just felt like, man, I really want to go back somewhere where...
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm doing, I know I'm making a difference.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say that I wasn't making a difference where I was at the investment firm,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: but in the nonprofit world, it's different.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're making a difference in people's lives very directly.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: The metric for success is not more money, it's impact.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a there's a ton of complexity and nuance to that.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's part of your story that attracts me the most is like,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: oh, that's the metric that I'm after.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think in life is like, how do I love people and love God well and create impact?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: How do I help other people create that type of impact?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think when you were talking about that,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: when we were talking in our first conversation around,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I had that yearning to go back to that.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, I resonate with that idea.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is such a cool example of like someone that's kind of like followed God
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: and lived through this,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: but then also at the same time use the gifts and the talents that you have from like
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: the corporate world in a world that like desperately needs that expertise
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: and experience where it's like so many of the nonprofits that I feel like I've come
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: across and I'm sure your experience is similar where it's like passionate people
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: that are excited about something but have no Understanding of like how to run
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: a profitable quote unquote business.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: how do you find someone like you can marry that idea of like, hey, well,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: this is actually like how you do a P&L or this is how you do like, yeah,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: you should be investing and these are the investments you should ever,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then also at the same time,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: like that's serving the impact that you're trying to have or whatever.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: The president and vice president had even said to me,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know, oh,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: we could help you get a job at another investment firm because you do so well in
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: the back office.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like we know you would do well and like you could probably make like this much money.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it just it didn't interest me.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I knew I wanted to get back into the nonprofit area.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Funny enough, though,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: during the time when I left the worship pastor position,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: was full-time at the investment firm,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: God had also opened up another door on the side in ministry.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I shared this with you,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: where then I was an interim pastor and Then for an Afghan Christian church up in LA.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you didn't share that with me.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: But then when I was preparing for this interview, I read about that.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is so incredibly random.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: When did that happen?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about that.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: So when I left that worship pastor position, I was not even considering...
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Going into ministry somewhere right away just because I was full-time at the investment firm.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was looking for a church to attend.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at that time, my dad, who is from Afghanistan, he had a...
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: He had become a Christian when he first came to the States,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: which was at this point now about 40, 50 years ago.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: But then
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: God just really did something in him again at this time in my life.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So my dad went on to help start an Afghan Christian church up in the LA area.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it was small,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: but he asked me,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: like, oh, you know, would you want to come and attend, like, just to check it out?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because he knew I wasn't attending anywhere at that time.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, oh sure, I'd like to come see it and support you.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point you had done some sort of reconciliation and repair.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I grew up seeing my dad on Saturdays.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that was our relationship.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it was strained, but it was there.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we did actually,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: so through this process of I went to the Afghan church,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: visited,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: and then I think I went back and visited maybe like a couple more times here
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: and there.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then one day my dad had asked,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: hey, would you mind speaking this coming Sunday at the Afghan church?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't really think anything of it.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought, oh, sure, you know, I'll help.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so the church was meeting at a...
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Very large Korean church.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the Korean church was letting us use one of their rooms as a meeting room.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like 40 people, 50 people?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like at this point, like 20.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And is the Afghan tradition for church very different than non-denominational
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: or evangelical?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a different service format?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, the service format was exactly the same.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you also have to realize, too,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: that
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: some of them are Afghans that grew up In Afghanistan,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: so they understand that culture.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: But then they've come here to raise their kids and they become Christian.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so then when they go to the Christian churches here, they see how they're run.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's how they want, like we want our church to be like that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up speaking that Sunday and then...
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was gone like a few weeks and came back and visited again.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when I came back and visited again,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: one of the church elders who was from the Korean church,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: he was attending the Afghan church to support it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: He came up to me afterwards and he asked me,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And in his broken English, he said that he wanted me there every Sunday.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought he meant like in attendance there every Sunday.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, oh, sure.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've been gone camping.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was on vacation.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's why I've been gone.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, I'll be back.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he just kept repeating, we want you here every Sunday.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just kept saying, oh yeah, sure.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: So he walks away and my dad comes up to me and my dad said,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: oh, so did Dr. Yoon talk to you about speaking every Sunday?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, there's been
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: a horrible misunderstanding.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: I said, oh, so that's what he was telling me.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Were you like 27
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: at this time?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was...
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was about 26, 27.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: What's your first emotion in that moment?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought, oh, I guess I said yes.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'm doing this.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't hesitate.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think like, oh, I guess I better go tell him I'm not going to do it.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: That didn't even cross my mind.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where I did start to see now making the connection of like,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: oh, I went to school for this and now I get to do this.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I then was driving up to L.A.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: every Sunday morning,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: waking up at 5 a.m. every Sunday and driving up there and doing this.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: From here.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: From here, from orange.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, God really used that time to grow me as a person, as an individual.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I just saw it as an Opportunity just to serve and serve those people and serve God.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Practically,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: you had to be like in the word and like,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Studying it in order to preach every Sunday.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like a great kind of like getting back to basics probably.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm doing this while working at the investment firm full time.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the investment firm thing is like you're sort
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: of figuring out like maybe there's something else on the horizon.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is the beginning of the urge to go back into the nonprofit
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: space.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: While I was at the investment firm,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: that's where I started to learn some of the tools that I'm going to later use in
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: the nonprofit space,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: like email marketing, graphic design,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: even a little bit of web design.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Self-taught myself the graphic and web design part.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: The email marketing, they needed someone to take that on.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I learned it and I did it and obviously would end up using that later on.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: So now, flash forward back to...
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Feeling like, hey, I want to get back to nonprofit.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: then with the Afghan church,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was feeling like my time there was coming to an end.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: But there again,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I was just an interim guy because the hope was to find someone who could come
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: in and actually was fluent in Farsi to be able to be the lead pastor.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you speak any Farsi?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, I know like five words.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: But thankfully because of my background in classical music,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: singing in junior high through college and having to sing in other languages.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is all just like Italian.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Italian, French, German, Latin.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because of that, I was able to sing the worship, which we did worship in Farsi.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Did you guys have traditional instruments
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: and stuff too?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or was it still a guitar?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was a guitar.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you were leading that too?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was leading that too.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's a buddy of mine now, but he was from the Korean church.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So he would come play guitar.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would sing.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, yeah, so I don't know how we got off on that.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are you, are you like an alto?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Are you a, where are you in the range of?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a baritone.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, nice.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you started when you were like super young.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my, I guess my first solo standing up in front of church, I was five years old.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Dang.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was dressed as an angel.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's like a picture out there somewhere of me.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: For some play or something?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: At church.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you're doing worship.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're thinking about getting back into nonprofit stuff.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is this one like Friendly?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Am I saying that right?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Friendly Center.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is that where?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is right around the corner.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So all that to say with the African church,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: um, We ended up finding someone else who was going to come in.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of knew like, okay, this is the year I'm leaving the Afghan church.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Is your dad still there?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he was still there.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: so coincidentally enough,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: it's the same year that I ended up Also finding this new nonprofit opportunity
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: and moving on from the investment firm.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So because I left the Afghan church, I went back to my home church.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there was new pastors now.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And since my Sundays were free, I thought, oh, well, let me help out in the youth group.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just like a normal person would be like, oh, this is great.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have Sundays back.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I can like chill.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: And like you growing up in the way that you did, you're like, I have Sundays free.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have to work more.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do something.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just helping in the youth group there.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the pastor's wife was actually very involved with the youth group at the time.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I had mentioned to her about Like,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, I'm feeling like I want to find something back in nonprofits.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my background.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, oh, well,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just took a tour last week of this place here in Orange called Friendly Center.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they're looking for a part time bookkeeper.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: You could apply for them there.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so she gave me the email address of the CEO.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I emailed the CEO,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: sent her my resume and
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: came in for an interview with the CEO and probably
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: a week later.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then she said to me, hey,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: just before we get going,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want to let you know The day that you sent in your resume was the same day
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: that our marketing and events coordinator gave her two weeks notice.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that position is full time.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just wondering, would you like to apply for that instead of the part time bookkeeper?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yes,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: because I was in fact looking for something full time,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: but I figured,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: oh, I'll just go in with the part time bookkeeper thing because I can do that.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so there again,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: God had this door open and I walked through that and I So now,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was at Friendly Center then for 13 years,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: and when I started there,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: they had their events that they did,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: but there was so much more to build up there in terms of
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: a true development department.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And really saw that opportunity to do that.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I took that on in building the development side,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: but then also took on building up their volunteer program,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: which they were utilizing volunteers,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: but there wasn't any true tracking involved with
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: What volunteers are here when,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: and having online sign-up forms for volunteers.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: None of that had existed yet,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: so I was able to implement all of that and help build out that program to the point
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: where then we were utilizing up to 700 volunteers a year.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: My time at Friendly Center was really a time
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Even, I guess, more growth on my part.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Building the development department, but then growing in that at the same time.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm curious,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: because it definitely seems like there's a lot of foundation work leading up to
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: that, and then it feels like that's a stretch season.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were there for so long that at some point, I'm sure...
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: It felt comfortable on some level,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: but in that season of stretching, how did you feel like Yeah, so we...
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: We started dating, I had been at Friendly Center for four years.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you had gotten some roots down.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I had gotten some roots down and also then I guess back on the ministry side,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know, was helping out in the youth group at my church.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And a friend of mine who was a youth pastor at another church was going to be moving
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: to Korea to teach English.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so he had asked me if I would step in as the youth pastor there.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so He actually called me from, he was in China at the time.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: He called me in the middle of the night to tell me that he felt led,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: like he was supposed to go to Korea.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, what am I supposed to
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: do with this, man?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he's asking me if, would you take over being the youth pastor at my church?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I, while he was gone away in China, he was going to China and Korea while he was over there.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: He was gone for a month period.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so during that month, I filled in as his sub, the Substitute Youth Pastor.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so he had called me.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had just started at Friendly Center in June.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then he was gone in August.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I was subbing for him then.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about being
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: real stretched.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that's just how...
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: My life has happened where it's not just one thing happens or changes,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: but then there's always something else that changes also.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: so I do always find myself in these seasons of being stretched, but
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I just always continue to view it as an opportunity for growth and
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: an opportunity for God to show me what it is that He wants me to learn from all
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: of this and how am I continuing to grow in Him through all of this.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Despite whatever pile of work I may have or whatever obstacle it is,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just sort of taking it on with With God next to me.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And not saying no to him.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I find myself.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm there at Friendly Center.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you want me to share about my wife.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I mentioned that in passing because That's like another,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better way of saying it, like mental load that you're also carrying.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if that was four years in,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: like you had had a foundation,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: you had some roots down,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: but you were probably still being stretched in ways in each project
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: that you were doing and building and developing.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I feel like that was what I was getting at with that question of like,
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: that's probably a whole other separate podcast of just like,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I have some more questions around like how you guys do life together and stuff.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think for the purposes of the question that I was asking,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: you answered it and that like, this is how I deal with when I'm stretched.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like there's always like...
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's some version of that always happening.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't seem like at least as I've heard about your life and kind of looked
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: through your professional journey,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't seem like there's really been a space where there's like chill time
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: or stagnation or anything.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's mostly, yeah, I'm being challenged by the open doors that are around me.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm also living into Like,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: my relationship with Jesus so much that,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: like, I'm able to kind of hear from Him, like, oh, is this of you?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is this not of, like, where do I go from here?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: How do I deal with this thing?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, kind of,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious in my own walk, like,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: how do I kind of be rooted in the intentional practices of hearing from God,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: but then also, like,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where are the open doors that are happening in my life that I can either say yes
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: or no to, I guess.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: And say yes or no to more stretching and more growth and more discomfort in order
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: to grow in healthy ways and thrive in that way.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess I've always...
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: And always in hindsight, right,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: when I look back on the challenging parts of my life,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: then it's easier,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: much easier to see like, oh,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: that's what God was trying to do or that's what he was trying to teach me
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: or show me.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm able to see even within myself how God has formed and shaped me
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: through those times.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a particular memory or project or event that you think back on during
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: that season of starting at Friendly that has kind of shaped some of the way
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: that you still think about either work or life now?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there was a lot of events that were new to me and a lot of
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: fundraising events,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: but then also our major distribution events like at Christmas and Thanksgiving and
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: for the people that we were serving.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but because each of those events were so unique in and of themselves,
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: there was this constant learning,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: especially within those first couple years of,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: okay, now that we've done this event, like, okay, we're moving on to the next one.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's completely different than the last one.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of learning involved and, um,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would feel the pressure like the day of our galas,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: just running around,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: getting things done and getting ready for those big events and wanting them
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: to be successful because there's a lot of pressure.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: You want them to be able to raise the money that is needed for the nonprofit.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: But also,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: always put my trust in God even with that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I would work hard.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would come into these events
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: wanting to put my best foot forward and wanting
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: to be excellent in what I was doing.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then knowing that God was going to see that and honor that.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then just continuing to trust Him.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: If there was something that failed, well, then I can do better next time.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing that there was always opportunity for growth.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Did you...
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is there like a specific memory or project or whatever that you felt like did fail
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: that like has actually,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not been a failure in like the learnings that you've had from that?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Where it was like either an open door that you maybe took but then realized like,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: maybe that was like the wrong door to walk through or I don't know,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: just I'm curious about that.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, you know, I don't know that there was any event that just flat out failed.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, the nonprofit, they weren't doing any galas when I first came on.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: So there again, there was an opportunity for me to bring that.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so that actually took some convincing of the CEO and the board.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get behind that.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: That vision.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because of the experience you had come from.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because of the experience I had come from and just knowing
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: and having attended other banquets and galas at other nonprofits,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: knowing that this was something that we could do.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: But there again,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: just not saying no to open doors and not saying no to, you know, well, why not?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why not try this?
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: From a practical development or marketing standpoint,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think is one of the biggest,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: let me rephrase this,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: one of the most consistent small things that marketing or development teams can do
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: that has the biggest impact in the long term?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, relationships is really a part of all of that.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I spent my time in the corporate world and
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: I have attended so many webinars and conferences over the years with nonprofits
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: about fundraising and, oh,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: here's all the tactics you can use to,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: like, oh, this is the time of year to really ask people.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: And sure, yes, there are those types
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Tips and tricks that you can do.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, it's just relationships.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: I could sit here and tell you about a nonprofit all day long and give you all
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: the best pitches about it.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: if I don't know who you are and really care about your interests,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Then maybe none of that is even going to matter.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: And your heart might be invested already and you might have a heart to give
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: to some other type of nonprofit.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: My CEO at Friendly Center,
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: we used to joke how, well,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: why would I sit there and try to convince someone to give to us when they have
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: a heart to give to us?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like a pet adoption agency, right?
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: So if that's where their heart is, great.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let them go and give where their heart is.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to try to change someone's heart,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: but if I'm able to explain the story and explain
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: the This is why I think you should give.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And if that is something that you're interested in, great.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have more conversation.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: So like what I'm hearing you say is listen well and ask good questions
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: and like genuinely care about people to build relationship.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Genuinely care.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: And because if you want to treat people like a number,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they're just someone with a dollar sign over them.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's plenty of corporate jobs that could be had.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just me.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's my take.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in the nonprofit world, just I'm here to serve.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like even as the fundraiser I'm here to serve the people
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: who are actually doing the work and out there,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: whether out on the field, in the trenches, distributing food.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: To be a messenger of sorts to like their story.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm curious, like,
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: because you've been doing this so long, like,
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: and building expertise in these ways,
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: what has kind of been clarified for you, like,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: one of the biggest giftings that you have that you would call out for yourself that,
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: because you've been doing this so long has allowed you to kind of,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: like, do it successfully?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a couple of things.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I enjoy hearing other people's stories.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I enjoy being able to share in the stories of the nonprofit Impact.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: So because it's not all about me,
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: it's not all about,
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's not even all about the nonprofit that I'm trying to share about,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: because I also want to hear about Where the donor's at,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: and how has God been moving in their life to maybe reach a point where they are able
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: to give?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: What journey have they been on?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: But then also, there again, just having, I guess I've always been
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: More of that servant leadership type where I don't feel like I need to be out there
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: and like on stage,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: like putting on a show for people like I don't need to be doing that.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can be in the background serving and still be a servant leader as well.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think tied with that too, it comes to leading by example, right?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when we lead by example and others see that and then they want to join in
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: and start doing that with you as well.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and even just in the answers that you gave,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: in the focus time that I've spent kind of preparing for this and kind of reviewing
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: at least your professional life,
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: there's so much nuance and complexity that's not in LinkedIn and random articles
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like that servant leadership is core to even just the way that you talk
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: about your story.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the yeses that you said led to where you are now,
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: but it was because of that servant-led sort of spirit where it was just like,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: I need to help my buddy out because he's not available,
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: and he said he would like Be there, but he can't be there.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then that became like a five or six year journey, right?
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: Of being like an integral part of this team and being someone
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: that they deeply trusted to like, I mean,
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: you said it yourself,
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: you were the only other team member during like,
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: These crazy times that you guys were working through and living in.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that,
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: is such a testament to what you're talking about where it's like,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: oh, yeah, like I just showed up and said yes.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then or like becoming a pastor because it's like,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: oh, yeah, this I didn't even really understand what this guy was saying.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: But as a result of like Not backing down from the yes that I had said.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes me think about like,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: oh, well, then we have to be really careful about the yeses that we say yes to.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the clarity that we have before we say yes so that we can say yes appropriately,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, for lack of a better way of saying that.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and two,
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: if we truly believe as Christians,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the Bible says, if God is for us, who can be against us?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm going to believe that, then I need to act that way too.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just words that I say or words that I think.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like our lives should reflect that.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so if God is opening doors,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: why should we be afraid to walk through those if He's with us through that?
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the caveat there to me is like,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: well, how do you know that they're open doors from God?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer, I think it's pretty simple.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, well, are you in deep relationship with Him?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are you in relationship with Him?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the more you pray and lean into Him— The easier it becomes
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: to recognize those moments.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you recognize that they are from Him and not something else.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: with every big decision in my life,
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: I always find myself crying out to God to tell me or show me,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know, either open this door or close it, right?
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes He opens the door and That I wasn't even asking to be open.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: But then just the willingness to then go through that.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: I found that like it's similar for me,
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: but I think one of the main differences is oftentimes it's like a door
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: that I never saw coming, but is way better than what I was asking for.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's usually more challenging than what I was asking for.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, please give me a million dollars really easily.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, actually, that's not the lesson you need to learn here.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think even going through that process has been helpful for me to remind myself
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: of, oh, I'm not the hero of my story.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is the hero.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: So how does my work amplify that?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm curious, like,
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: as you I mean,
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: professional life is a big piece of life because you're having to provide
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: for your family and build.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious, like,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: how do you manage the tension of like,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: excelling well and saying yes in the right ways to the different doors that open
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: and close while also like being prioritizing family and marriage?
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I think that's like one of the tensions that I find now is like,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's easier in some ways to say no because there's clarity and priority
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: where it's like,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: got to figure out how to make money,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: got to figure out how to like be successful in my marriage,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: be a good father or whatever.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and be involved in church and doing relationship with Jesus as well.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then like everything else gets categorized in the mix of all that.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: But like, how have you found that tension and manage that?
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Even back when I,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: after my wife and I got married and we got pregnant with our first child,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: with our son,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: and I was working full-time at Friendly Center,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: but then part-time youth pastor,
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: that thing was still going on,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: and that was when I realized Oh,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do all this stuff that I used to do,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: especially like all the things I was doing when I was single.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: Then, you know, getting married is one thing.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: But then once you start having kids, that's a whole other ballgame.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: So actually when we got pregnant with our son,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: that was when we started having the conversation of,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: well, maybe it's time for me to step down from the youth pastor thing.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: And just seeing that that wasn't gonna be something that was really doable for us in
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: that season.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because we were quite literally at that time, We were both working full time jobs.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: So like Wednesdays,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: like going to Wednesday night youth group was I would like we would both rush home
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: and then immediately just change our clothes and then go to the she was
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: going to.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: She was going to with me after after we were married.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and was like, okay, yeah, we can't do this having a baby.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we did end up leaving that church because of that.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: But there again, like we knew it was the right time too.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we knew there again, like God was giving us the okay for us to move on from that.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just recognizing that and knowing our limits
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: and knowing,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know, like we talked earlier, okay, When do we say yes to these things?
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because God is opening the door.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: knowing when God is calling a season to an end and being able to walk away
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: from something.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so that happened.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: But man,
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: I remember even just in my later years at Friendly Center,
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: I started to get caught up in I think it was because I was attending
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: so many different trainings and conferences and such,
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: starting to feel like, oh man, I need to get going in my career.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: I need to go out there and become a certified fundraiser and need
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: to do all these things if I'm going to be successful.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: And all of that really started to get into my head and ended up talking to my pastor about it.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he kind of pointed out like, well,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: have you needed those things for God to lead you through all those previous doors?
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: And are you finding contentment in where God has you now?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that really stuck with me because I was like, Yeah,
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like these other worldly distractions from how to be a better fundraiser,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: it was really getting to me.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well, yes,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: there again,
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_00: there's some wisdom in what they're saying and the little tips and tricks and all of
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: that.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, God's still in control.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I submit my life over to him.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to do and follow wherever He wants me to go.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: So does having that extra degree,
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: at least for me, is that going to change God's decision or plan for me?
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: Unless that is built into His plan for me and part of what He wants me to do,
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: do I need to be breaking down doors and breaking down walls to be pursuing all of
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: that?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's often the question that I come back to is like,
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: what is enough and how can I be contented?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_01: And what is the tension between like calling and like ambition?
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Those are all very big questions.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: But even just in this season where it's like, I don't really know.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: I feel this push and this calling towards this thing,
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: but also then what is What's the practicality of living into that in a way
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: that provides for family, but then also lives into what God is calling me to?
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's, yeah,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: the nuance of that is challenging to live into and the tension of finding kind
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: of how do you Do the practical side of life well,
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: but then also the,
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: spiritual life side as well, which they're both kind of the same thing in many ways.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, enough of my rambling.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know, for me,
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: it's just always been God first and God leads the way and I want to go
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: where he leads.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that for our family even means we keep Sundays for us is sacred.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: We go to church every Sunday and that's a part of our regular rhythm of life.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're trying to plan even our schedules and our vacations and whatnot,
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: we plan it around the church events.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: Not because we need to be at church in order to be with God.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: I live my relationship out every day with Him,
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: but church gives me an opportunity to be with my church family,
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: fellowship, encourage each other there.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: So why wouldn't I want to be there?
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I mean, there are so many Beautiful things about doing life in community.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of like the whole point of life with Jesus in many ways.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like he in and of himself is like community with the triune God and all that.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's all other conversation.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: A good example for us to follow.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of as we wrap here,
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious,
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: like I had questions kind of prompting like a lot of the career stuff and you kind
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: of just anticipated all that and you worked through it.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm curious,
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: like if you and maybe this is a moot question and I'm curious to get your thoughts
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: on it.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you were to like start over again,
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: what's like a belief that you held maybe like towards the beginning of life?
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so many reasons why we hold those beliefs when we're young and naive
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: and don't know as much.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: But like.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a belief that you had at the beginning of a lot of like whether it's career
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: or start of life, however you want to define that.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then like that you've almost completely reversed on in some way
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: where it's like I believe this one thing and now I actually believe like something
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: of the opposite is true.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the number one thing,
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_00: I guess if it's one of those questions like, oh,
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: if you can go back in time and tell your younger self something, what would you say?
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would definitely tell myself just keep trusting God and keep seeking Him first.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that trust part is important.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_00: We were actually talking about this the other night at a Bible study where You know,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: it's one thing where we accept God's love and we love Him.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that is definitely like a big part of our relationship with Him.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the other big part is trust.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't trust God with your life, what kind of relationship is that?
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so trusting Him with With every step, every decision.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: a
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: lot of coupled with that is patience, right?
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was hoping you weren't going to say that.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean,
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was asking God for answers that maybe I didn't see for another year
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_00: or years later.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And but looking back now, I can see.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where,
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: telling my younger self, yeah,
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_00: just trust because those answers are going to come and they may not come
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_00: the way you think, but they will they will find their way to you somehow, someway.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so good.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, I need to hear that in this season too.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's encouraging.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to, I say curious a lot.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I need to cut that out.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're curious.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm self-editing already.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that you feel like is still unfinished or like something
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_01: that you're still being patient about or a question that you're still wrestling
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: with?
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that, that you feel like is on the horizon, but maybe like hasn't come to fruition yet.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm just at the point in my life where I have no idea what's around the corner.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're in like the acceptance phase of just like,
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: it's like, I, I don't know what's coming.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like,
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: like I said, like,
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just here to,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: to live it and to live it well and to give God the glory through it.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, So wherever he has me,
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to do my best and
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: just live my life for him through that.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm over trying to make plans for my life.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was over that a long time ago.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm definitely just here for the ride.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm glad he's the driver.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're in the back seat or you're in the front seat.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't even know if I'm in the front seat.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think I am in the back seat.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Playing with your iPad or whatever?
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're looking out the windows.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're enjoying the view.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right, right.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's an awesome answer.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's cool that you've come to a place like that.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: I still think I'm in my angsty...
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Figuring out like, oh, these are all the things, all the dreams that I have or whatever.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll probably, those will be subdued, I think, as I continue to grow.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And because so many of the goals and dreams and stuff have been achieved,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: at this point in my life with Family and the partner that I have in life and all
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: that kind of stuff.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then the icing on the cake is like a lot of the other stuff that's going on too.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I'm excited to have that answer be honest and true for me.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like, oh yeah, whatever happens is cool.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't aren't surprises always better, right, when you don't know?
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on the person, right?
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to agree with you.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think life is less interesting if you know.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I always wonder,
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: like, if I could know the day and time of my death, like, would I want to?
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And no, never.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because then it would just, like...
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Infuse every single possibility.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_00: All your decisions would just then become based on that.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the pro of that is that you could like...
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ideologically,
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_01: and I think fantastically,
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: be like,
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to use all of my time to the best of my ability because I know I'm going
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: to die on 2075.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: But then the question is, well, why aren't you doing that either?
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the follow-up question.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then you realize, oh, I'm just like a lazy person by nature.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And even if I did know the date of my death, I'd probably be doing the same thing.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, yeah,
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: the second question is an important one to ask,
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: how do you make the most of life with With not knowing and live and thrive in that
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_01: because you don't know in
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_00: general.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is the second to last question.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for dealing with all my questions.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Every guest that I have on, I ask them if they have a question for the next guest.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_01: The previous guest asked this question, so don't blame me.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Blame this awesome guy named Will.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he asks the question,
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: mostly because he was sort of like talking about this in our conversation,
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: is like, what's keeping you up at night?
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would say just sorting through the nuances of my new position where I'm
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: at
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: and just wanting to do it right.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's a new position.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Still within fundraising and advancement,
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_00: but now in the education world,
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: which is different than the social service world where I've spent most
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_00: of my nonprofit time in.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, and just wanting to do it right and do it well and
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: When I went through the interview process to work with this school,
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I believed in the mission of the school.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: My kids go to the school, so I guess there's...
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's already emotional buy-in.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's emotional buy-in there, wanting to help develop the school further.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then going away to the...
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: conference that I got to attend with other new staff and other current staff of
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: the school I really got to sit down and meet with them with a lot of them one-on-one
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_00: and really hear their hearts and their passion of why they're teaching
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_00: and why they love the school so much and I ended up walking away from
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_00: that conference feeling like man like I want to build a better school
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_00: for them now yeah yeah like I forget my kids.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see them.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is recorded for all of time.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want to see these teachers have the best school that they could possibly have
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: to do what they do best and really form the students and future citizens
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: that they are helping shape.
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so anyways, so I want to get that right.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so because of that and because I carry that
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_00: and I know I have some perfectionist natures within me.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that is part of what keeps me up.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's the music person in you.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Music, definitely...
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Built a sense of self-discipline within me,
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_00: which I'm forever grateful for, and the phenomenal directors that I was under.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really helped shape me.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a question for our next guest?
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I have to come up with a question now.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, gosh, what keeps you up at night?
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was a good one.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can take as long as you want.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, because you can just edit all of this out.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I won't, but take your time.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you need to talk through anything,
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: like for me,
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a verbal processor,
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: so I usually end up getting to whatever answer Eventually by just talking as much
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: as possible.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_01: So if that's helpful for you.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, see, I'm not a verbal processor at all.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_01: You wished that I had given you this text message like three weeks ago
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_01: and you could have written.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, this is good for me because this is good,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: like spontaneous answers for me to be able to get through.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I'm very much in my head and process a lot.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_01: It can be as deep or as shallow.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't need to be anything crazy.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_01: It can be like, what's your favorite ice cream?
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: It could literally be anything.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thinking something along the lines of...
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where is it that you see God
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: the most in your life today?
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_00: where do you see him working in your life the most today?
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that sounds like you do know.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's one of my favorite things about this is that I don't have to answer it.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I just wait.
• 1:20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you get to pass that.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to be thinking about that today because that's a very thoughtful,
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: well-constructed question on such a short timeline, too.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know,
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: that was actually a question every time I would meet with my advisor from Vanguard.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_00: That was always like one of the questions he would always ask is like,
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_00: well, what is like, where do you see God in your life today?
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately,
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_00: by answering that question,
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_00: that actually helped me figure out some of my other problems or situations
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_00: that I was dealing with.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: that's the other challenge I think about like being so focused on whatever obstacle
• 1:21:11
  SPEAKER_01: or hurdle you're trying to overcome is that you inevitably do away with perspective.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: perspective is really helpful to have in moments of change and transition and Yeah,
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: even just the perspective of like now that we have two kids instead of one,
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_01: you have the perspective of the first child that you went through.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in the moments that I've gotten frustrated with our second,
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_01: it's
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_01: much easier to like just lean back on the experience of the first one
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_01: and be like, oh, well, it wasn't as hard in these ways.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's easier in that way.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_00: But Yeah, and then you have the third and then everything goes out the window.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's how I feel with two now is like, well,
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_01: everything that I thought I knew about our first is like now changing and different.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: She's challenging us in new difficult ways that are probably normal for
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_00: any kid.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like...
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_00: But doesn't that just go to show you how we are all so different and uniquely made and God...
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Then what's mind boggling is how God knows then each and every one of us.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the biggest that, I mean,
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_01: selfishly,
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be a parent for partially this reason is like,
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_01: so that I could relate to God in a new way and get a new perspective.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I think it's just,
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's been such a whirlwind and crazy learning experience,
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_01: uh, Figuring out how to be a dad that I want to be a good example to my kids for.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then just so many times often looking at that as a mirror basically
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_01: to my relationship with Jesus and being like,
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_01: man, this morning Verena, our oldest, did not want to put her pants on.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was just like...
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, we need to go put pants on so that I can like go do this thing that I committed to doing.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get this done.
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like,
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_01: just how often do I do that with Jesus in my own walk where it's like,
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, I know what's best for me.
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want to do it this way.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh man, it was such a, when I'm cognizant enough, I'm looking at it that way.
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_01: But then in the heat of the moment,
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of the time it's just like, Get me out of this situation.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I completely agree with you.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the best ways to learn about God is being a parent.