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Parenting Thinking Errors: Unconditional Love vs. Conditional Love · Head Shrink Inc.

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, this is Doc David with Head Shrink Inc., and Dan Bates is here with me today, and we are going to talk about um unconditional, unconditional love, and how it affects your parenting and your kids.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Listen and then Bates.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, hey.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, welcome to another episode of uh Head Shrink Inc.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Doc David and Dan Bates, my bro therapist, is here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Therapro is here.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the summer, I was just thinking about this.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: The summer I'm the head shrink.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the shrinky head.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: You the head shrink.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of those two.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so time is a constant, but it feels relative because I'm thinking we're almost done with summer.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: School starting back up.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I'm excited for the fall, but it's a little bit depressing to think, oh man, all the nice warm weather is about to leave.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like all the camping, camping and eating raspberries.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, fall is great though.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Autumn, if you don't like autumn.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I like about here's what I like about autumn.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I like the days that are there's dusk, right?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the the light is there longer, and then it's warm, and then it's just kind of I like that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I like you.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's that's sweet of you.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I like you too.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, on to what we're gonna talk about today from that awkward moment.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, okay, so a lot of times, so we've written a book called When Parenting Backfires, and there's um various chapters about some things that parents do um that create problems in the relationships with their kids and that have bad outcomes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've talked about um written about these errors and how they backfire and then ways that you correct can correct them.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um today we want to talk about the chapter in the book is called I Love You Conditionally, which is kind of self-explanatory.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: That it's it's basically you've heard as a parent that you're supposed to have unconditional love towards your kids.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I often think, well, does that mean if even if they've murdered somebody, do you still love your child?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you still love your child, I guess you don't like what they did, right?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um could you ever imagine a situation where you wouldn't love your child anymore?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like they killed your wife?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think I would always love, but the mistake I've seen parents make is love then gets conflated with no standards.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's true.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So so this error, um, so the thinking error here is um instead of loving unconditionally, there's conditions put on a parent has conditional love.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that could be anything from, I mean, I think it's based on behavior mostly, right?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you behave a certain way, then you garner my love and my affection, my connection.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the idea.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're saying that that is a very um inappropriate and effective way to love your kid.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: There should be unconditional love for your child, but within that there should be boundaries and expectations and reasonable expectations, I think.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um you we talked about um there's a guy named Gottman.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about Gottman.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: So Gottman is a psychologist and researcher at the University of Washington.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: He met his wife too, she's a researcher, and he is the founder of what has been coined as the Love Lab.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's essentially he created a research environment where he would stick couples in a I don't know, some housing unit, and he would basically have every square inch of that um housing unit recorded.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so what he would do is he would put couples in there for a weekend and just monitor every single thing they did, every conversation, every fight, and then when they would have fights, he would code every single detail of the fight.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, did they have um I think didn't they have like things hooked up to them too to determine their heart rate?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, maybe.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: So then what he would do is he would he would analyze how the couples would communicate and fight, and then he would monitor them in terms of like relationship outcomes.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Did they stay together?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Did they were they satisfied with their relationship?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: Did they divorce?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Was it you know, all this stuff?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so he based on that research, he made several observations about basically how relationships work and and how they break down within a 90, and he could predict within what 90.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's another interesting fact about Gottman is he got so good at analyzing couples and how they communicate and fight, based on a 15-minute interview, he could predict if the couple was going to stay together or get divorced to a 94% degree of certainty.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's pretty good.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty good certainty.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not bad, God man.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the the idea in this chapter is that when you try to motivate uh your child uh with love and a relational connected based on whether they have good or bad behavior, this is what's gonna what's gonna backfire.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I wouldn't even I would say that's not just based, that's just not just with kids, it's also if you're married to somebody and you're motivating them, and the only way that you know if they do what you want them to do, then you love them and show them love.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get into the thinking era, which is what you're talking about, yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Which is what what you just said, right?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like the parent, there's behavioral issues with the kid, and so what the parent does is they try to motivate their kid to good behavior, not a bad thing, but the the motivation they're using, the incentive they're using is relationship with them.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that backfires.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, so how does it backfire?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what happens so you want your kid to let's say do well at school.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: You want your kid to go to school, and so you say to them, um, I I don't even know if you say it to them.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: For some parents, I might just kind of be him, you know, you it's what you do, it's how you interact.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where the thinking error comes, because you don't think about it, you just kind of do it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so the kid doesn't go to school, and therefore you in your and as the parent, you have this interaction with them where you don't do things for them, let's say.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um if they go to school, then you um speak to them in a loving way, you give them hugs, you uh do you do for them basically.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But if they don't do this thing that you're wanting them to do, then your response is to cut off emotional connection with them.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You don't hug them, you don't interact with them, you don't talk to them pleasantly.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're you're just cut off basically from them in an emotional way.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so Gottman, I think you had talked about Gottman has three different um connection types, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and so then he broke it down to three different connection types.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the first is uh turning towards someone's bid.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now, someone's bid is what?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: So a bid for connection is very broad in in how it's defined, but it really could be anything, it could be as simple as me saying hello, to me texting someone, to me, um, you know, I'm at the grocery store and I got my wife her favorite candy when I came home.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it's basically a way of looking at behavior that has a relational explanation to it.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I went to the grocery store and got my wife candy, not just because it's there was there and it was convenient, just happenstance, but I did it because I wanted to get some connection with my wife.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a bid.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So can these connection bids are happening every day with all sorts of people and all that?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And think of bid is like the metaphor, right?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're bidding, like you're at an auction, you're bidding for a car or livestock or something.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: We do that on like a micro level with relationship.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we make bids for connection with each other.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the first his first uh connection bid is turning towards someone.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have an example of a turning towards someone bid?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so like I get my so I go to the grocery store and I get my wife the Reese's Pieces candy.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I come home and um, you know, like I say, oh hey honey, I got the groceries and look, I got you this candy.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then she says, Well, did this didn't happen, this is just a scenario.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: I did get her the candy though.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um and she says, Well, did you get the tomato sauce?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, oh no, sorry, I forgot that.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then all she focuses on is the tomato sauce and how I didn't get it, and totally misses my bid for connection with the Reese's pieces.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So what's a so a turning toward bid.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: So turning toward, so I come home.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Reciprocated.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I come home and I bring her, I say, I got the groceries and here's the Reese's pieces.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of just saying, Oh, you can leave it on the counter, or she just takes it and eats it, she says, Oh, that was so thoughtful, thank you.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then it initiates this reciprocal pattern where we're kind of um connecting, like we're have having conversation in a positive way.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: In a positive way.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe she then next time gets me like uh, you know, an espresso drink that I wanted, but I didn't ask for.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this positive thing that feeds on itself and leads to really good outcomes in relationships.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so in a parenting relationship, it could be something as simple as your kid without being asked does a chore for you.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you respond, wow, that was really great that you did that chore.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciated it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that is a potentially a bid for connection from your kid to you, and yeah, and being positive back is a way to um to enhance that positive connection with the kid.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll get into the reasons why it's important to uh to do it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're just talking about what it is now, but it's almost like you want two perspectives.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the just the surface level stuff that goes through life, and then there's also the relational level.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so if your kid does something above and beyond, that's something to pay attention to versus just assuming that's how it should be.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: They should be doing above and beyond.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they live in this house for free, so they should do it.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the second type of bid for connection is called turning against.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I think that's what kind of what you were referring to earlier.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like let's say, well, kinda, yeah.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say, like uh um man, I can't I keep thinking of marriage examples, but I'll give it a marriage example and then a kid example.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give a kid example.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, like uh, I have a friend who um he was telling me recently, like his wife was out to work and he was home.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: So he cleaned the whole house, did all the dishes, did the laundry, just like went over the top and like went the floor.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: What a what a dummy.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um but like they have a pretty well equal share of the chores, yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: But he did his and hers.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and just as a gesture to say, I love you, honey, something like that.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that would have been a connection bit.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so she comes home, sees all that, and um gets mad about the you know, some some small thing that wasn't done.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Was this real this was you, really, wasn't it?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, this was this was my friend.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um I won't name names.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Asking for a friend.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is my friend's confidentiality?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: This was a friend.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: This was a real friend.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: This wasn't me.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: The racist pieces was me.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so then attorney against is an example of But you got your kid example.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: What's the case?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the uh so the teenager does his chore, like previously, making the bid bid attempt towards dad or mom or whoever.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, dad or mom see that chore and then get on the kid's case because they didn't do one of the chores the exact right way they were supposed to do it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you can see the the kid makes the attempt for a bid for a connection, and then the parent completely misses it and focuses on something that rather than focusing on the relationship, like wow, here's my kid.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he didn't do it right, but he made an attempt to do it.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that you can see where that's gonna create problems.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And in a relationship.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I've got another example of uh I was working with a family, and there's kind of a negative communication pattern between the the kid and the parents.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I worked with them and I got the kid to kind of use a more healthy way of sharing his feelings, and so the kid kind of took a risk and was vulnerable and shared what he felt instead of just I don't know, being rude.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um the parent just totally didn't even um she corrected him for how he could have done his and how he could have done it better.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it was just like no wonder he doesn't want to try um and share more effectively or honestly or vulnerably, because he just gets you correcting him, and so uh that was something I brought to the parent's attention is he just made a really good effort to connect with you and do something that was kind of uh outside his comfort zone, and you corrected him instead of praising him.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what I've seen a lot when that happened when that kind of specific behavior happens consistently, it's usually tied into what I've seen is a parent who does that to their child, usually that parent has had some type of experience with an alcoholic parent, right?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing is ever good enough.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that parent, because they're just kind of used to that nothing is ever good enough, they've they pass that on to their kids.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: So their kid makes that connection attempt, um, and the parent doesn't respond appropriately.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: They respond in a way, well, yeah, I see that you did it, but she didn't do it well enough.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so a third type of response to a bid connection is um in Gottman's words, it's called turning away, right?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um a person makes a bid for connection and the other person's response is distance.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the teen in the teenage example would be teenage son does his chore, his dad or mom asks him to do, plus they do an extra one, and dad sees the chore and just doesn't make any comment.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: He just sees it and doesn't give him praise or doesn't give him, you know, doesn't thank him or anything like that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think similarly, in using your example of Reese's pieces with with your wife, what would turning away potentially?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I come home and I get the groceries and I get the Reese's pieces, and um I say, Hey honey, um, you know, got the groceries and oh look, I got your favorite candy, and you know, just doesn't say anything at all.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Or acts indifferently, or then brings up a different subject.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so um you know it's like oh I just put myself out there and then you know you don't respond, you don't you don't pick it up.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So then it leaves the bidder uh confused and maybe worried about oh, is there an issue or did I do something wrong?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it never gets explained or resolved.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's that word confusion is great because I mean out of the three connection attempts, obviously one's the appropriate way to do it, like the turning towards, yeah where but but that takes some work because maybe you had a bad day, or maybe that's just not kind of your your style.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to kids, and when it comes to kids specifically, I think it's we as parents need to pay attention to that because we're supposed to be raising them up in a place where they can launch from in an effective way, and if we're always kind of harassing them and critiquing them and pointing out their flaws, they're gonna take that out with them into the real world, they're gonna want to leave you know our little incubation place sooner than maybe they're they should.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so in loving conditionally, you should you should never make a relational connection dependent on good behavior.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's hard to do because I mean, and speaking as a parent, it's hard when my kid or daughter um don't do what I want them to do, it's hard to um stay pleased and happy with them at times.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a distinction that you're bringing up is difficult to do.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but it it's necessary, and I think what effective parent parents do it really well.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why it's like, you know, it's kind of like uh, what was it when when the Supreme Court was trying to make a ruling on pornography and he's like, I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of like good parents.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I don't know how to really, I guess I do know how to define it, but it's like defining good parenting can be hard sometimes, but I know it when I see it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what I this is when I see a good parent, this is what I see them doing, which is always maintaining a basis of love and regard and respect for their kid, but that doesn't rule out behavior correction or disappointment or disapproval of certain behaviors.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I love you, but I disapprove of this behavior.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and I've seen it play out so many times, and there's a case that really stands out in my head where a kid was just killing himself basically to win the um love of his parent, and this parent just couldn't do it because they couldn't get past the bad behavior.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's like the bad behavior doesn't create a barrier to your love.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: You still love your kid, you're still rooting for them and uh hoping for good things for them and trying to build skills and encourage them, but at times it, you know, but you can still disapprove of what they do.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen that with maybe you've seen it too, where you try to talk to parents about that and they they cannot they can't separate, they cannot stop talking about so you just want to uh say that what his behavior is okay.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't someone need to like point out that what he's doing is wrong, and I would say yes.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously the behavior that the kid is doing is wrong, but I I think it's the challenge for the parent is to be able to acknowledge that that's wrong behavior, but still love the kid, right, even though the wrong behavior is there, and I think that's where um oh you did this bad behavior, so then I'm going to turn off my love connection towards you until you do what I want you to do.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what so we just had an interesting conversation today with another therapist about a case in doing a case staffing where um two specific topics got brought up that potentially relate to that are the potentially the outcome of conditional love parenting.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um one, I'll say one and and you say the other, one is cutting, right?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's and the other one is eating disorders, right?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So both of those things that we we run into often working with teens, and and and I think what you find with both those orders is that there's a lot of control that goes in.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So so kids that are in homes where they feel controlled, or whether not feel, I mean where they are controlled, because feeling controlled and actually being controlled potentially are are two different things.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um where kids are controlled, I don't know, that would be a good discussion, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you feel controlled, are you controlled?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's like when you're doing assessments, it's always like actual or perceived.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you you may not be actually controlled, like the parent may not be strapping you down to the bed, but you feel controlled, you perceive control.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like if women in DVA situations, they perceive the threat of abuse or you know, life-threatening threats, or you know, it's perception, which is just as tangible or has the same impact as well.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a a lot of times in in homes where there's that control, rigidity, or this kind of uh turning turning off of love or you know, conditional love, is that kids will do extreme things to like kind of test their parents' love limits.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if I do this cutting behavior, um I'm I can control it, my parents can't control it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: But then I think also there's this this will my parent love me even though I'm cutting on myself.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Secret love test.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well will my parents still love me if I make myself grow up.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so I think what happens is you you try to cajole the parent into loving you by by either hurting yourself or others or you don't it's because it's like you know the normal avenues for for love and connection aren't working.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're making bids and they're turning against you or away from you.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like okay, that's not working, so I gotta go.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I gotta do drugs or cut myself or sleep around or just anything to get their attention.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I have their attention, then there's the possibility of love.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if they're not even paying attention to me, or the attention they are giving to me is is harmful, you know, it's like I'm gonna push back or do something extreme, basically.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think what happens is that like that extreme behavior creates more control attempts by the parents.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: In some cases, or it creates more distance, like they just write them off totally.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I think the the self-fulfilling prophecy is that the kid does this extreme behavior and the parent says, Wow, I'm really gonna be distant from this kid, and so then the kid again just turns it up another level, runs away, um, gets connected with sketchy friends, and so then by the time you try to, oh, you you as the parent snap out of it and think, Oh, I gotta do something different.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times it's too late because the kids are, you know, they're in with their group of friends, and these people really understand me and love me unconditionally.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: You don't, and so why would I ever want to go back to you all like that?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like when we start working with families, we're at the end point where it's like so messy, and there's so many.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: So when we come in with our suggestion about you know love not being dependent on good behavior, it's like, what?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: What are you talking about?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Look how bad they are, you just don't understand.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like, what who is this crazy person calling themselves a therapist?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: But once you untangle all the messiness and get down to like the core issue, that's where the problem lies.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is it started small, the kid got the message from parent that A, my bids of connection aren't working, and B, I only get love when I do this behavior they like.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not even me they love or care about, it's just this thing I do.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not so again, I would say it's not just the kid that's creating these problems, it's it's kind of a combination of parenting that is well that's the message they're receiving.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right, but not the parent.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right, but that's not like we as therapists, we go in and we see it completely different, is how we see it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um anything else you want to add to that?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's the solution?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we've got well, I mean, I think the the solution is don't do it.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just stop it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's that easy to stop it.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean I think it's rec first is recognizing, okay, am I doing this parenting this love, unconditional love, conditional love thing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I think a therapist is gonna hopefully uh uh you have a good therapist who's gonna be able to clearly identify it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then you I think you need to trust them that they know actually know what they're talking about.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you can identify it as having conditional love, then I think specifically with your kid, I mean, because there's different ways to handle it with your spouse, but I think specifically with your kid, is that you have to you have to you have to purposefully approach them differently in regards to the bad behavior that they do or the bad choices that they make.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it I I think the solution is is making that distinction between my love for them and then my correcting bad behavior or my approval of bad behavior.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you an example, it's a side example, but when there's communication issues with couples or families, one thing I work on is agreement or sorry, acknowledgement doesn't equate agreement.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you can acknowledge what the other person is feeling without agreeing with their position.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a distinction, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're you're still giving the person respect while respectfully disagreeing.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that keeps a that maintains a level of respect in the conversation.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the same thing with this issue that we're talking about is you still love the kid and you're in their corner and you're rooting for them and you you know you're supporting them, and at the same time you disagree or you disapprove of the behavior.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say your kid is um, you know, having promiscuous, unprotected sex.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like get out of here, you you whore, you know, you're a terrible kid, you can't stay at my house if you do that.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I love you fiercely, and I I am I will always be there for you and support you, but I can't support this behavior.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I support you, and I see you growing into this amazing adult someday, but this behavior that you're doing right now scares me, concerns me, and I can't um, you know, promote it.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: I can't support it.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and I think that sends a really powerful message to the kid.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's not me, my identity, who I am as a person that my parent d disagrees with or disapproves of.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: They love me and they see all these good things in me.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: But when I act out sexually, or when I go use drugs or sell drugs, it's that behavior that isn't good and and for all these reasons that they're out of it.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to I'm trying to think of an easy formula for it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's unconditional love plus appropriate consequences equal a good good parenting style.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like if we were if we're the love and logic people, we would say natural logical conditional love plus which is a punishment I think in itself, plus punishment.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's basically punishment plus pun emotional punishment plus physical punishment equals messed up kids.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, like that's because it's because when you do the conditional love thing, that's an emotional punishment that you're putting upon your kid.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you do that emotional punishment, plus then you say, and you're grounded for two weeks, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's two kinds of punishments where before it's I love you unconditionally, which is not a punishment, but there's gonna have to be consequences or uh there's gonna have to be consequences to your behavior.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like in like in the book we talk about um oh, I just had it in my brain and now I lost it.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's not good.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe you should read the book.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I shouldn't read it.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but basically, oh yeah, I remember now.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think you wouldn't you wouldn't deprive your kid of food or water if they acted out.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, uh yeah, like no dinner tonight or whatever, but but in the long term, you're not gonna stop food and water because they're acting poorly.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like when my daughter doesn't um you know, like she she does something she's not supposed to, it's not like okay, you lose food privileges.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, you still feed your kid.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think I, for me as a therapist, I would put food and then emotional needs really on like the same level almost, like as the hierarchy of basic needs from Maslow.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would say uh love and emotional connection is a basic human need, and it's not a bargaining chip, so it's not like oh you you know you acted behaved poorly.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: You wouldn't take food away and you wouldn't take emotional needs away either.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's an example of a girl named Jeannie who was kept in a cage her whole life, and then people discovered her later in adolescence and saved her, and she had all these issues, but uh one of the main issues is that she had mo emotional deprivation for years, and she was so limited in her capacity as just basic human functions.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but she was fed, right?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: So she had food and water, but she didn't have emotional needs met, and she was severely underdeveloped.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: So let's not do that to our kids, too.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Not obviously, we're not gonna do that in the extreme form, but we do it on these micro levels where we make love, a bargaining chip versus this basic standard need that they get regardless of their behavior.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the outcome then is you get a kid make becoming extreme and doing extreme things just to get you to show them love.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then we as parents say, well, the kid's the one with the problem, not we're not gonna be able to do that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then that's the wrong-headed way of looking at it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, so that is uh from the book When Parenting Backfires, 12 Thinking Errors.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: That you are uh undermined parent effectivist.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we'd love you to check that book out on Amazon.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um Dan Bates, where can we find you on the webs?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: You can check me out at DanielBates.co.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's my website that's got blogs, podcasts, books, articles, etc.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can find me on David Simonson.net and on Facebook at DocDavid.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening in.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love for you to recommend the podcast to anybody that you think would be helped from it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks a lot.