Latest / Brian Thomas / Tech Friday w/ Dave Hatter - Sponsored by Intrust IT - 7/24/2026

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Tech Friday w/ Dave Hatter - Sponsored by Intrust IT - 7/24/2026 · Brian Thomas

0:00
Speaker 1: Talk station. It's a Friday, twenty nine minutes past the hour,
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Speaker 1: six twenty nine Eastern, that is, and Gary Jeff in
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Speaker 1: for Brian Thomas this morning on this July twenty fourth,
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Speaker 1: closing out on July, and time for some Friday tech
0:16
Speaker 1: talk with the Wizard. Let's pay attention to the man
0:22
Speaker 1: behind the curtain, shall we? The aluminum foil or tinfoil
0:26
Speaker 1: hat is firmly in place, and Doomsday Dave Hatter is
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Speaker 1: ready to go. Good morning Dave, Good morning, Gary Jeff.
0:33
Speaker 2: How are you.
0:34
Speaker 1: I'm doing fine, doing fine, feeling frisky. Good, Happy Friday,
0:39
Speaker 1: Happy Friday to you. This is something that this first
0:45
Speaker 1: story about mortgage fraud is something that is becoming more
0:50
Speaker 1: and more prominent. And it happened to this couple in
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Speaker 1: southern California who almost almost lost hundreds of thousands of
1:03
Speaker 1: dollars as they were trying to make a down payment
1:07
Speaker 1: on their home. But they noticed something in an email
1:15
Speaker 1: from their supposed mortgage broker they'd been working with, and
1:19
Speaker 1: it made them suspicious. And this is something that we
1:24
Speaker 1: all can take a page from, and something you've warned
1:26
Speaker 1: about before. We've talked about before. Misspelled words, misspelled I
1:33
Speaker 1: mean commonly known words for something like a mortgage broker
1:37
Speaker 1: like escrow. If they're misspelled, that should be a red
1:43
Speaker 1: flag to anyone who's dealing with them. Correct.
1:48
Speaker 3: You are correct, and I'm really glad you brought this
1:50
Speaker 3: story up because it really illustrates three different things that
1:53
Speaker 3: I try to talk about all the time that really
1:57
Speaker 3: bring in my mind a very clear foatocus on why
2:01
Speaker 3: A these kinds of frauds are successful and B if
2:05
Speaker 3: you are unaware and or not vigilant, you will potentially
2:11
Speaker 3: become a victim of this. So I want to start
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Speaker 3: with how this likely happened and then get to the
2:16
Speaker 3: misspelling you mentioned, because there's several things at play here
2:20
Speaker 3: and how this went down. I suspect because they don't
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Speaker 3: really tell you in the stories I've seen anyway about
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Speaker 3: the mortgage broker.
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Speaker 2: Side of it.
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Speaker 3: So, if I'm buying or selling a house in this case,
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Speaker 3: I'm the buyer in this story, right, Eventually I'm going
2:35
Speaker 3: to have to transfer money to someone else. And now
2:39
Speaker 3: a lot of this has become electronic. So if I'm
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Speaker 3: the mortgage broker, or if I'm the buyer, and let's
2:45
Speaker 3: say you're the mortgage broker, Gary, you have to keep
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Speaker 3: this simple. If bad guys can get into your email account,
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Speaker 3: you and I as the buyer and you as the broker,
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Speaker 3: have been emailing each other back and forth. I recognize
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Speaker 3: your email address. I know you. This is not an
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Speaker 3: un solicited email. We have transacted before. That's the point
3:03
Speaker 3: I'm trying to make you send me instructions on how
3:07
Speaker 3: to send the money, right. It's all legitimate up to
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Speaker 3: that point. If bad actors are in your email account.
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Speaker 3: And this is why account takeover and an account takeover
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Speaker 3: of an email account is so important. Account takeover is
3:20
Speaker 3: nerds speak for bad guys are able to get into your.
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Speaker 2: Accounts okay, because people will.
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Speaker 3: Tell me all the time, well I got nothing to hide,
3:27
Speaker 3: I don't care if you get my email account. Well
3:29
Speaker 3: here's the reason why you don't want me in your
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Speaker 3: email account. There are many, but this is one. Bad
3:34
Speaker 3: guy gets into your email account and is now in
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Speaker 3: there impersonating you. But the difference between spoofing your email
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Speaker 3: and impersonation in this case is he is in your
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Speaker 3: actual email so he sees this interaction between you as
3:50
Speaker 3: the broker and me as the buyer, and at the
3:52
Speaker 3: last minute he sends a new email, which is what
3:55
Speaker 3: happened in this case, a new email went out how
3:57
Speaker 3: it happened. I don't know. I'm speculating on the basis
4:01
Speaker 3: of this, but as a business we see this with
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Speaker 3: our clients all the time. Bad guy at the last
4:07
Speaker 3: minute sends a new email, and that new email has
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Speaker 3: changed the payment instructions. And in this case did what
4:14
Speaker 3: you suggested, which is the word escro has been changed.
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Speaker 3: You called it a misspelling. I would not call it
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Speaker 3: a misspelling, Gary Jeff, because I'm a nerd.
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Speaker 2: I would call it a.
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Speaker 3: Specific manipulation so that it looks to the naked eye
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Speaker 3: like the right word, except it's been changed in a
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Speaker 3: way that is subtly overlooked by the humans, but the
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Speaker 3: computer knows. In this case, they replaced the W and escro,
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Speaker 3: the lowercase W and escro with two lowercase vs.
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Speaker 1: Right, and it looks it looks like somebody spelled the
4:50
Speaker 1: W weird.
4:51
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, And that's the gist of it, right, If
4:54
Speaker 3: you're not playing close attention, the two lowercase vs. Side
4:58
Speaker 3: by side look more or less like a W that
5:01
Speaker 3: just happens to be a little funky. Another common trick
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Speaker 3: is lowercase are and lowercase N like Nancy Romeo, Nancy
5:10
Speaker 3: or November together because it looks like Mike or m
5:14
Speaker 3: it looks like a lowercase M. This is done all
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Speaker 3: the time, but in this recent example, and giant kudos
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Speaker 3: to the people who told this story, because you know,
5:25
Speaker 3: you and I talk about this all the time. I'm
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Speaker 3: out there doing presentations and talking about this in the.
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Speaker 2: Media or whatever.
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Speaker 3: It's much more believable coming from a victim than it
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Speaker 3: is listening to me saying well, this could happen and
5:35
Speaker 3: that could happen. So I have enormous respect for people
5:38
Speaker 3: who go public with these stories so that people realize
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Speaker 3: it's not just some nerd like me making stuff up
5:44
Speaker 3: or trying to sell you something. This is happening every day,
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Speaker 3: and again it illustrates a Y. Yes, you do need
5:51
Speaker 3: to care about your accounts being taken over because they
5:54
Speaker 3: can be used to perpetrate fraud as you and B
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Speaker 3: you need to be aware that these kind of scams
6:02
Speaker 3: are common.
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Speaker 2: They're everywhere.
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Speaker 3: In most cases, Gary Jeff, what we see as a
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Speaker 3: business and in trust is not It's not a super
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Speaker 3: sophisticated technical wizardry that's causing people to lose their money.
6:16
Speaker 3: It's scam artists leveraging technology to get to you knowing
6:20
Speaker 3: you don't know about these things and or aren't paying
6:22
Speaker 3: close enough attention. So I then we'll be out of time.
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Speaker 3: I just want to make one last point. If you
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Speaker 3: are doing anything financial and at the last minute, even
6:31
Speaker 3: if you're dealing with someone you've been dealing with before,
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Speaker 3: because their account could be compromised if the instructions change
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Speaker 3: in any way, you should stop pick up the phone
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Speaker 3: call that person on a known trusted number before you
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Speaker 3: do anything else, because you may fall victim to the
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Speaker 3: kind of thing we just described here.
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Speaker 1: And I like you emphasized on a known trusted number
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Speaker 1: because the fraudsters spoof numbers all the time time too.
7:00
Speaker 2: They do, Yes, they do.
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Speaker 3: And in the show notes from today, I will post
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Speaker 3: this article and you can.
7:06
Speaker 2: See screenshots of this thing.
7:08
Speaker 3: So again, awareness vigilance absolutely key to avoiding many of
7:15
Speaker 3: these sorts of scams that are out there.
7:18
Speaker 1: More reasons to hate so Friday Tech talk with Dave
7:23
Speaker 1: Patter from interest It trying to figure out what the
7:28
Speaker 1: flock is going on Mayor. He also happens to be
7:33
Speaker 1: the mayor of Fort Wright Kentucky, which he does reluctantly.
7:41
Speaker 1: But anyway, I digress flock cameras. You've heard about them,
7:46
Speaker 1: you may have heard us talk about them. But here
7:49
Speaker 1: is another angle to why we should resist these flock
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Speaker 1: cameras that are popping up even little towns all over
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Speaker 1: the country, but not in Fort right. And it looks
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Speaker 1: like there's backlash from the Newport City Commission on these
8:10
Speaker 1: in Newport, Kentucky, but other police departments around the country
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Speaker 1: have used them at least hundreds of times to search
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Speaker 1: for specific people. You think about flock cameras and you
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Speaker 1: think that they're just license readers on cars. Well, this
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Speaker 1: is a this is a traffic thing. I'm not breaking
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Speaker 1: any laws. Why do I care if they're recording my
8:36
Speaker 1: license plate? Well, they're not just recording your license plate.
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Speaker 1: They're using searches like heavy set and mail with a
8:48
Speaker 1: black and white hat, person on a skate board, person
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Speaker 1: wearing orange vest and construction hat, and they can very
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Speaker 1: easily and have very easily misidentified people who were just
9:06
Speaker 1: going about their business and not breaking any laws. And
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Speaker 1: that person wound up in the crosshairs of a local
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Speaker 1: police department. Plus of all the other privacy invasion issues
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Speaker 1: that come along with these things. Dave, if you can
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Speaker 1: expound on this a little bit please, and the dangers
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Speaker 1: they're in.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Gary, Jeff.
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Speaker 3: As you know, I'm not a fan of the so
9:29
Speaker 3: called Internet of things aka smart devices, doorbells, thermostats, all
9:34
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff. And the connection here is, you know,
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Speaker 3: this is just another form of that as technology has progressed,
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Speaker 3: both the ability to create ever smaller computing devices and
9:47
Speaker 3: less expensive computing devices with more power, as well as
9:51
Speaker 3: the ability to get connected to a network, in this
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Speaker 3: case the Internet.
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Speaker 2: You know, now you have five G. It's pretty ubiquitous.
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Speaker 3: In other word, if you don't know what five G
10:00
Speaker 3: as folks, you know, just think sell your network. So
10:03
Speaker 3: you have, you know, devices now that are in the
10:06
Speaker 3: old school, in the old days. You know, your toaster
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Speaker 3: did not connect to the internet. Your washing machine did
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Speaker 3: not connect to the internet. It wasn't smart.
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Speaker 1: Your toilet did not connect to the internet, and you
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Speaker 1: were better off for it, in my opinion.
10:21
Speaker 3: We could we could go down a rabbit hole here
10:23
Speaker 3: and I found a funny meme about this yesterday.
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Speaker 2: But before we run out of time, so you know,
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Speaker 2: flock and Flock.
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Speaker 3: While Flock has gotten all of the press, there are
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Speaker 3: other companies that are making these devices. Ax On is one.
10:37
Speaker 3: They're big in the body camera space. So you know,
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Speaker 3: in my mind, the debate is really should be more
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Speaker 3: than Flock. It's it's automatic license plate recognition or really
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Speaker 3: smart cameras, right, if you want to go all the
10:49
Speaker 3: way out, because originally this was pitched. And you know,
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Speaker 3: license plate readers have been around for a long time.
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Speaker 3: Most cop cars have had them forever. But there's a
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Speaker 3: fundamental difference between how a third party private company like
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Speaker 3: a Flock or others works. Then if you have some
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Speaker 3: government owned thing right, And that's one of my issues
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Speaker 3: with it. This is a third party company who knows
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Speaker 3: what the terms of service say and I don't know,
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Speaker 3: Gary Jeff, because yes, you are correct, we do not
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Speaker 3: have these and fort right. But it's it can do
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Speaker 3: more than just reach your license plate. It's capturing information,
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Speaker 3: it's storing it in a database. There are numerous examples.
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Speaker 3: I post this stuff on my social media all the time.
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Speaker 3: You can follow me if you want to see the
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Speaker 3: kind of stuff I'm posting and sharing about these topics
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Speaker 3: we're talking about every day because yes, I'm not a
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Speaker 3: fan of this, but it's not just flock. If I'm
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Speaker 3: a fan, I'm not a fan of the surveillance state
11:46
Speaker 3: we're building thanks to all of this technology and the
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Speaker 3: fact that who knows where this data goes, who knows
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Speaker 3: who has access to it? They say they only storing
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Speaker 3: it for thirty days. You know, who knows who else
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Speaker 3: has used and how it's being used. The same concerns
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Speaker 3: I have have with so many of these Internet and
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Speaker 3: Things devices and the companies behind them. But the backlash
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Speaker 3: has started to grow on this. There are numerous members
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Speaker 3: of Congress now talking about this, talking about passing bills.
12:14
Speaker 3: I've found an article from Futurism saying that at least
12:16
Speaker 3: fifty three cities have recently ended their contracts. There are
12:20
Speaker 3: numerous cases you mentioned the stalking angle. I know there
12:23
Speaker 3: are numerous police officers who have been fired for using
12:27
Speaker 3: these things incorrectly stalking people. The recent ruling from the
12:33
Speaker 3: Supreme Court about geo fancying and warrants is interesting. I
12:38
Speaker 3: think I hope Garry Jeff, that people are waking up
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Speaker 3: to this. Now here's the headline. Tim Burchett wants to
12:44
Speaker 3: limit video surveillance. Again, this is something I've been following.
12:49
Speaker 3: I'm not the Google smart glasses, the Meta smart glasses.
12:57
Speaker 3: I understand the argument for this.
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Speaker 2: I'm absolutely pro police.
13:01
Speaker 3: I think if you looked at our budget you would
13:03
Speaker 3: see we've added headcount in the police department. I'm absolutely
13:08
Speaker 3: anti crime, but I'm also a fan of the Benjamin
13:13
Speaker 3: Franklin take on this. He who gives up this liberty
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Speaker 3: for security deserves neither. I don't want to live in
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Speaker 3: a dystopian or Wellian surveillance state. That's the thing for me.
13:23
Speaker 3: And again, I would have less concerns about this if
13:26
Speaker 3: some police department bought this, had total control over it.
13:30
Speaker 3: It wasn't going to third parties, it wasn't a private
13:33
Speaker 3: company doing who knows what with this stuff.
13:36
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying I.
13:36
Speaker 3: Would be for it necessarily, but I would be a
13:39
Speaker 3: lot less concerned about that than the model that we
13:42
Speaker 3: have now. Again, Gary, Jeff, how many times have you
13:45
Speaker 3: and I discussed some tech company that's been breached or
13:49
Speaker 3: has done something nefarious with your data twenty three and
13:52
Speaker 3: meters for example, with your DNA data and the lawsuits
13:56
Speaker 3: around that, And well, we're going to go brankrupts and
13:58
Speaker 3: now we're going to sell your DNA. Hey, folks, you
14:00
Speaker 3: can't get new DNA. You can't get new DNA.
14:03
Speaker 2: Once it's out there.
14:05
Speaker 3: So again, there's all kinds of misuse of this. There
14:08
Speaker 3: are many well documented stories that I've shared of people
14:11
Speaker 3: being pulled over because the license plate reader read their
14:14
Speaker 3: plate wrong and suddenly they're surrounded by police. So I
14:18
Speaker 3: don't want to live in the Norwegian surveillance state. That's
14:21
Speaker 3: the bottom line for me. I'm absolutely against this type
14:25
Speaker 3: of technology, not necessarily this company. Again, could it be
14:29
Speaker 3: built in a way, could it be used in a
14:31
Speaker 3: way where I might be persuaded, maybe, but under the
14:35
Speaker 3: current model, totally against it. And I'm glad to see
14:39
Speaker 3: that people seem to be waking up and realizing we
14:42
Speaker 3: are not headed in the right direction around this technology.
14:45
Speaker 3: And one last thing before around a time I just
14:47
Speaker 3: found a story this week. You and I have talked
14:49
Speaker 3: about this before. All these so called smart cameras, they're
14:52
Speaker 3: getting hacked by our adversaries. These could be hacked and
14:56
Speaker 3: used against us. Should a friendly nation like and I'm
15:00
Speaker 3: being facetious, the Chinese Communist Party decide tomorrow is the
15:03
Speaker 3: day that they want to take Taiwan, and they want
15:06
Speaker 3: to cause casts, and they want to turn off the power,
15:09
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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Speaker 2: So yeah, not for it.
15:11
Speaker 1: You know it all started, Dave, It all started going
15:14
Speaker 1: downhill when they secretly reverse engineered alien technology.
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Speaker 2: There you go.
15:20
Speaker 1: We we'll talk a little bit about smart glasses before
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Speaker 1: we're done. On this Friday, Tech Talk with Dave Hatter
15:26
Speaker 1: at six forty eight now at fifty five krs the
15:29
Speaker 1: talk station.
15:30
Speaker 3: Ever wonder why you're sneezing and coughing in your own
15:32
Speaker 3: see the talk.
15:33
Speaker 1: Station as we continue to trip fantastic through the Internet
15:39
Speaker 1: of Things world on a Friday morning with Dave Hatter.
15:42
Speaker 1: Tech Talk. Story from the BBC, the British Broadcasting Company,
15:47
Speaker 1: reporting on the case of a woman in the UK
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Speaker 1: who claims she was filmed via a man's smart glasses
15:55
Speaker 1: without her knowledge, by the way and then black maide
15:58
Speaker 1: it blackmailed with a human only eating video of herself.
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Speaker 1: Says she was just walking in a London shopping center
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Speaker 1: approached by a guy wearing smart glasses. She said, in
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Speaker 1: the moment, I thought it okay, this guy is just
16:13
Speaker 1: trying to talk to me, to chat me up. I
16:14
Speaker 1: was hoping he would lay me alone eventually, but he
16:17
Speaker 1: did actually follow me. And the rest is the stuff
16:20
Speaker 1: of you know, privacy invasion nightmares.
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Speaker 3: Dave, Yeah, Gary, Jeff smart glasses. So we're now in
16:31
Speaker 3: what I would describe as face two of this. And
16:33
Speaker 3: also let me say one last thing about the flock
16:36
Speaker 3: slash license plate reading cameras slash surveillance tech. You know,
16:41
Speaker 3: there's a lot of good smart people out there that
16:44
Speaker 3: have lots of credible arguments for why this will be
16:47
Speaker 3: beneficial for society, you know, by and missing children, and
16:51
Speaker 3: this ties into the smart classes too catch criminals. You know,
16:56
Speaker 3: I get all of that, and those arguments are legitimate
16:59
Speaker 3: to a point. But again, the way the technology has
17:03
Speaker 3: been implemented gives me a great pause, especially in light
17:07
Speaker 3: of all of the hacking and breaches that we have
17:10
Speaker 3: seen over and over and over again. In light of
17:13
Speaker 3: and I didn't should have mentioned this last segment. This
17:16
Speaker 3: past week, I had the privilege of sitting in on
17:19
Speaker 3: a FBI presentation. So there's a public private partnership with
17:23
Speaker 3: the FBI called Infraguard. Cincinnati has an active chapter. One
17:27
Speaker 3: of my colleagues at in Trust as the president of it,
17:30
Speaker 3: and one of the benefits is you occasionally get to
17:33
Speaker 3: sit down and hear from the FBI about what's going
17:35
Speaker 3: on in critical infrastructure and so forth. You and I
17:37
Speaker 3: have also talked about many times, and it was quite
17:41
Speaker 3: alarming when they shared things about what they know about
17:45
Speaker 3: the Chinese Communist Party and what they're doing that aren't
17:48
Speaker 3: as well known to the public. You know, some of
17:50
Speaker 3: it recently unclassified.
17:51
Speaker 2: Some of it I knew pretty alarming.
17:54
Speaker 3: So and again, if the enemies of the United States
18:00
Speaker 3: can hack these devices like Ukraine had hacked by Russia,
18:04
Speaker 3: they can be used for targeting all kinds of things.
18:07
Speaker 3: So the smart glasses thing, to me is just another
18:09
Speaker 3: extension of this. The technology has now gotten small enough
18:12
Speaker 3: that you can put a computer in the frame of glasses.
18:14
Speaker 3: You have powerful batteries that can run these things forever.
18:17
Speaker 3: You have connections to the Internet through five ge aka
18:20
Speaker 3: the cellular network, and now you can literally walk around
18:24
Speaker 3: with a computer on your face. That in and of
18:26
Speaker 3: itself well not really a problem. As a person who
18:29
Speaker 3: has wore glasses for a long time, uh, you know,
18:33
Speaker 3: I could potentially see the benefit of that However, like
18:36
Speaker 3: almost everything you and I talk about regularly, Gary, Jeff,
18:39
Speaker 3: it cuts both ways, right. You can also put a
18:42
Speaker 3: camera that in those frames, you can put a microphone
18:45
Speaker 3: in those frames, and now literally you can be a
18:48
Speaker 3: walking surveillance device for unsuspecting people like this woman who
18:52
Speaker 3: are just out trying to trying to live their lives,
18:55
Speaker 3: go to the grocery, whatever it is they're trying to do,
18:58
Speaker 3: and suddenly they're being surveilled by someone else. Now theoretically,
19:03
Speaker 3: and there are different manufacturers. It's not just Meta. You know,
19:05
Speaker 3: Google tried this a few years ago, wasn't very successful.
19:08
Speaker 3: That's why I call it Phase two. Meta is now
19:12
Speaker 3: the big player in this space.
19:13
Speaker 2: There are others. They have a deal with ray Band.
19:16
Speaker 2: In fact, there's a great meme.
19:18
Speaker 3: Out there now. I guess one of the Genners is
19:21
Speaker 3: somehow promoting this thing, and someone made a great meme.
19:25
Speaker 3: It shows her with these glasses and then a picture.
19:27
Speaker 3: If you've never seen the great movie from nineteen eighty
19:30
Speaker 3: eight with one of the greatest rastlers of all time,
19:32
Speaker 3: Rowdy Roddy Piper, They Live John Carpenter, absolutely fantastic movie.
19:38
Speaker 3: They use that where he finds these glasses, and when
19:41
Speaker 3: he looks to him, he sees all these aliens and
19:43
Speaker 3: all these hidden subliminal messages. They live great movie, Highly
19:46
Speaker 3: recommend it. They basically make a playoff of that with
19:50
Speaker 3: these glasses. Anyhow, the glasses typically are supposed to have
19:56
Speaker 3: a light that shows you they are recording. Well, what
19:59
Speaker 3: if I paint over the light? What if I put
20:00
Speaker 3: a sticker over the light on the frames of the glasses?
20:03
Speaker 3: Does the average person even realize this is a thing?
20:06
Speaker 3: Much less if I want to surreptitiously record people, If
20:09
Speaker 3: I want to do weird, creepy pervy sort of things
20:12
Speaker 3: like go in the bathroom and record people, if the
20:16
Speaker 3: light is covered, how would you know that's happening. So again,
20:20
Speaker 3: I understand why people might want to have these things.
20:26
Speaker 3: I understand the technology has progressed to the point where
20:29
Speaker 3: this is a possibility, But just because you can do
20:32
Speaker 3: something doesn't mean you should. And I think in this
20:35
Speaker 3: unfortunate woman's case, you're only going to see more and
20:38
Speaker 3: more of these.
20:38
Speaker 2: You know, do you want to send your.
20:40
Speaker 3: Kids in a public bathroom with someone in there that's
20:43
Speaker 3: got these glasses on and its potentially recording them.
20:46
Speaker 2: My answer is a hard note. So I don't know
20:49
Speaker 2: how this can be stopped.
20:51
Speaker 3: I don't know what the answer is, but like so
20:53
Speaker 3: much of this scary Jeff awareness, people need to be aware.
20:56
Speaker 3: These are real, They're out there and now they're not
20:58
Speaker 3: cheap at this point, and I don't think there's selling
21:00
Speaker 3: all that well. And Joe has already told me I
21:02
Speaker 3: can't use a certain word to describe the people with these.
21:05
Speaker 1: Classes, but this last week, Joe is such a prude.
21:13
Speaker 2: Urge to say it.
21:15
Speaker 1: Right, Dave, I'm sorry we are out of time now,
21:19
Speaker 1: but I think people can get a pretty good idea
21:22
Speaker 1: of the word you're thinking of. But anyway, until next time,
21:28
Speaker 1: Dave Hatter, intrust it and you're all over the place,
21:32
Speaker 1: right Dave.
21:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm easy to find. I'm sharing this kind of
21:36
Speaker 3: stuff all the time. Follow me on LinkedIn, x Facebook.
21:40
Speaker 3: I'm constantly trying to help folks be aware of what's
21:43
Speaker 3: happened out there and protect themselves to the extent they can't.
21:46
Speaker 1: Thank you so much