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A Monument to Paralympian Angela Madsen: Row of Life Director Soraya Simi · Mind Over Mountain

0:08
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Mind Over Mountain with me, Cheryl Strayed.
0:12
Speaker 1: This week, my guest is award-winning documentary filmmaker Soraya Simi.
0:16
Speaker 1: Soraya is the director of the film Row of Life,
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Speaker 1: which chronicles the journey that ocean rower Angela Madsen undertook
0:23
Speaker 1: in 2020. when she attempted to row solo from LA
0:27
Speaker 1: to Hawaii. In our conversation, Soraya and I talk about
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Speaker 1: Angela's amazing, inspiring, and ultimately tragic journey, about Soraya's amazing
0:37
Speaker 1: journey making the documentary, and about the life advice that
0:41
Speaker 1: Soraya carries to this day that she got from Angela.
0:44
Speaker 1: Let's listen to our conversation. Soraya Seavey, welcome to Mind
0:48
Speaker 1: Over Mountain.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
0:50
Speaker 1: Well, it's a delight to talk to you. I recently
0:53
Speaker 1: watched your incredible film. You're, of course, the director of
0:57
Speaker 1: Row of Life, which is this just incredibly moving, inspiring, tragic,
1:06
Speaker 1: beautiful film about an extraordinary woman named Angela Madsen. I'm
1:11
Speaker 1: just going to give like for our listeners, just a
1:14
Speaker 1: brief overview. But then I want you to we're going
1:17
Speaker 1: to spend the next many minutes talking about this amazing woman, Angela.
1:22
Speaker 1: She was a renowned ocean rower, a three time Paralympian,
1:26
Speaker 1: not just in ocean rowing, but in track and field.
1:29
Speaker 1: She won the bronze in shot put in twenty twelve.
1:32
Speaker 1: And she also was a 14-time Guinness World Record holder
1:37
Speaker 1: and really an athlete. You know, she did basketball. She
1:39
Speaker 1: did wheelchair basketball. Really an amazing... She's a Marine Corps vet,
1:44
Speaker 1: an amazing athlete all of her life. And her life
1:49
Speaker 1: ended as she was undertaking what I would guess is
1:53
Speaker 1: the greatest athletic achievement that she had set her sights on.
1:57
Speaker 1: How did Angela... come into your life? How did you
2:00
Speaker 1: come to know this amazing woman?
2:04
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I think she's one of the
2:05
Speaker 2: most amazing people that I've ever met. And I was
2:09
Speaker 2: so lucky to be put in touch with her. These
2:12
Speaker 2: would be a sailing documentary that I had made while
2:15
Speaker 2: I was a student in film school that did a
2:18
Speaker 2: very modest tour of the East and West Coast. And
2:21
Speaker 2: Angela saw it at one of those stops at the
2:24
Speaker 2: Long Beach Sailing Club. And she messaged me on Facebook
2:28
Speaker 2: and said her exact words. Hey, I'm going to row
2:32
Speaker 2: an ocean alone. Would you like to make a little
2:35
Speaker 2: video about it? And that's how we met. A great understatement.
2:42
Speaker 2: And at this time, you were.
2:43
Speaker 1: 22, right? You were just out of film school.
2:47
Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah. And she was in her 50s by then, right? Yep,
2:53
Speaker 2: she was 59. And I, you know, had my film
2:57
Speaker 2: school era was very colored by films like Free Solo
3:01
Speaker 2: and Don Juan, those sort of epic adventure documentaries that
3:05
Speaker 2: were really breaking through the mold and making it into
3:08
Speaker 2: mainstream conversation. So Lo and behold, this remarkable woman just
3:13
Speaker 2: rolls into my DMs. And something right away that I
3:17
Speaker 2: immediately liked about Angela is she was just so unlike
3:21
Speaker 2: anyone I had ever seen in a film before. She
3:24
Speaker 2: was the anti-protagonist in some ways of being just not the...
3:29
Speaker 2: the mainstream American sweetheart we all imagine when we're looking
3:32
Speaker 2: for these kinds of stories. And I found that actually
3:35
Speaker 2: incredibly compelling.
3:36
Speaker 1: Let's dig into that. I mean, yeah, first off the bat,
3:39
Speaker 1: she was older. She was 59. And she tells you,
3:42
Speaker 1: I want to row from LA to Hawaii. And I
3:46
Speaker 1: want to be, she was really going to break a
3:50
Speaker 1: couple of records or set a couple of records, right?
3:52
Speaker 1: The first paraplegic to make that crossing. Was it also
3:56
Speaker 1: the oldest woman to make that crossing?
3:59
Speaker 2: Yes. So the only paraplegic I think still to this
4:02
Speaker 2: day to ever row oceans is Angela, the oldest woman.
4:06
Speaker 2: I only recently became aware that she would have probably
4:08
Speaker 2: hit a few other world records as being the first
4:11
Speaker 2: American woman to solo and several other, you know, they
4:14
Speaker 2: kind of all crop up. If you find a hyperbole somewhere,
4:16
Speaker 2: you can usually turn that into a world record. But
4:20
Speaker 2: she was really committed to the idea of being the fastest,
4:25
Speaker 2: the oldest and the only paraplegic. Those were her goals.
4:29
Speaker 1: How did you get to know her? Was this that
4:31
Speaker 1: you start messaging back and forth or did you pretty
4:34
Speaker 1: quickly know that you needed to get in real life
4:37
Speaker 1: with this woman to see if she was everything you hoped?
4:41
Speaker 2: So the first time I had a phone call with her,
4:44
Speaker 2: she insisted that we FaceTime, which is kind of a
4:47
Speaker 2: weird way to meet someone when you're, I don't know,
4:49
Speaker 2: especially when you're young and naive and you don't have
4:51
Speaker 2: that tact yet of how to approach those calls. And
4:54
Speaker 2: it became clear on the FaceTime the reason why is
4:57
Speaker 2: she wanted me to see that she was in a wheelchair.
4:59
Speaker 2: And for some reason that I was not aware of
5:01
Speaker 2: that before the call, even though I had Googled her,
5:03
Speaker 2: it just wasn't clear. That image wasn't clear to me.
5:08
Speaker 2: And that stumped me even more. I did not understand
5:11
Speaker 2: how physically she could row since rowing is so predominantly
5:16
Speaker 2: a lower body sport. And then on that call, she
5:19
Speaker 2: invited me to her house in Long Beach, which was
5:22
Speaker 2: a 30 minute drive away. And said, come over. You
5:25
Speaker 2: can meet me. You can meet Deb. You can see
5:27
Speaker 2: the boat. I'll show you. I'll answer a few more
5:29
Speaker 2: of your questions of how this is done. And she
5:31
Speaker 2: was very strategic how she lured someone into her trap.
5:35
Speaker 2: And I say that with all the love in my heart.
5:37
Speaker 2: But it was really like the millisecond we met in person,
5:41
Speaker 2: there was just something about her that felt so... Instantly
5:45
Speaker 2: familiar and friendly and warm. And she has this extremely witty,
5:52
Speaker 2: dry sense of humor that I can't resist in people ever.
5:55
Speaker 2: Dund is her life partner and they're just yin and yang,
5:58
Speaker 2: absolute opposites in everything. And so as the layers were
6:02
Speaker 2: revealed as a storyteller, there is just so much deliciousness
6:06
Speaker 2: to it. Everything that I kept learning about her made
6:09
Speaker 2: me like her even more. Right.
6:11
Speaker 1: And that comes through in the film, really. I love
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Speaker 1: one of the most, I think, powerful and moving kind
6:19
Speaker 1: of trajectories of the film when we really go back
6:23
Speaker 1: in time and learn more about who Angela was as
6:27
Speaker 1: a young woman. As I mentioned, she was in the
6:31
Speaker 1: Marines and she was always this person who was incredibly athletic,
6:36
Speaker 1: incredibly physical, incredibly sort of outside the box in terms
6:41
Speaker 1: of like what a woman, you know, the kind of
6:43
Speaker 1: conventional idea of what a woman is, especially of her generation.
6:47
Speaker 1: And she became a paraplegic through an injury, a spinal
6:53
Speaker 1: cord injury, a surgery that didn't go as planned. And
6:58
Speaker 1: so she was what, like in her early 30s before
7:01
Speaker 1: she became a paraplegic.
7:03
Speaker 2: Is that right? That's right. She was 33 when she
7:06
Speaker 2: had her botched surgery at the VA, but she had
7:10
Speaker 2: already been living with spinal degeneration for about 10 years.
7:14
Speaker 2: She was 23 when she got injured in the Marine Corps.
7:17
Speaker 2: She was playing basketball and someone stepped on her spine
7:20
Speaker 2: and broke two discs in her back, which is what
7:23
Speaker 2: led to her getting discharged from the Marine Corps. She
7:26
Speaker 2: was then physically unfit to fulfill her duty. So she
7:30
Speaker 2: had for more than half of her life, she was
7:33
Speaker 2: able bodied, which I also found to be very interesting
7:37
Speaker 2: in the story of an athlete. And you mentioned this,
7:39
Speaker 2: she's always been somewhat of a Renaissance athlete, like pick
7:42
Speaker 2: something up, and it came very easily to her. And
7:45
Speaker 2: you look at her school yearbooks, and she's the captain
7:47
Speaker 2: of seven different sports teams. And yeah, that's just very unusual.
7:51
Speaker 2: Like sometimes someone is really good at one thing, but
7:53
Speaker 2: we're not always good at 10 different things. And Angela
7:56
Speaker 2: was that, that character. So a very deep relationship with
8:02
Speaker 2: her body, I imagine. Yeah.
8:04
Speaker 1: And that's, you know, that's what I mean. It's like
8:07
Speaker 1: we look back in two in two ways, this kind
8:09
Speaker 1: of retrospective look at her life while you're, you know,
8:14
Speaker 1: in this film. really telling us blow by blow the
8:19
Speaker 1: amazing journey that she did take in her row. But
8:23
Speaker 1: we go back and we learn that she wasn't even
8:26
Speaker 1: a rower until, I think it was like she was
8:29
Speaker 1: playing wheelchair basketball, right? And she's like, somebody says to her, hey,
8:35
Speaker 1: you should try rowing. she gets into a boat and
8:39
Speaker 1: what happens then?
8:40
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So she claims that wheelchair basketball saved
8:44
Speaker 2: her life. That was the thing that pulled her out
8:46
Speaker 2: of the depths of suicidal despair when she was first
8:50
Speaker 2: transitioning into life in a wheelchair. Someone invited her to
8:54
Speaker 2: play wheelchair basketball. And to the end of Angela's life,
8:57
Speaker 2: she was always a huge advocate for adaptive sports, especially
9:00
Speaker 2: for kids. as a result of that experience. She knew
9:03
Speaker 2: how much that rehabilitated her. And then exactly as you
9:07
Speaker 2: put it, it was sort of a nonchalant offering. Maybe
9:09
Speaker 2: you'd like rowing, adaptive rowing. And she said, sure, I'll
9:13
Speaker 2: give that a try. And, you know, in typical Angela fashion,
9:17
Speaker 2: I think within a year or two was at the
9:18
Speaker 2: Paralympics for it, setting world records. And then that was, yeah,
9:24
Speaker 2: that was too small of an appetizer. So then she
9:26
Speaker 2: had to go bigger and got into ocean rowing and
9:29
Speaker 2: You know, the domino effect is pretty evident in her
9:32
Speaker 2: life where she could kind of find this thread and
9:34
Speaker 2: then she was all in on it.
9:37
Speaker 1: I want to talk about fear because I have to
9:41
Speaker 1: tell you, when I was watching the documentary and and obviously, too,
9:46
Speaker 1: this is like through through my the eyes that I
9:50
Speaker 1: have of like not having a physical disability. But I
9:54
Speaker 1: must admit, like I'm afraid whenever I see ocean rowers
9:58
Speaker 1: get in their boats and row out into the ocean because,
10:02
Speaker 1: you know, we are talking about vessels that are really
10:05
Speaker 1: just human powered and they feel very vulnerable, right, in
10:10
Speaker 1: the great vast ocean.
10:11
Speaker 2: And to see.
10:15
Speaker 1: And be aware, you know, to see Angela knowing that
10:19
Speaker 1: she doesn't even have full use of all four of
10:21
Speaker 1: her limbs as she's in that boat, it really heightened
10:24
Speaker 1: my sense of fear for her. I'm wondering, did you
10:28
Speaker 1: feel that way as you witnessed her rowing and doing
10:31
Speaker 1: these things? And how did she contend with that vulnerability
10:35
Speaker 1: and that fear?
10:37
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I felt fearful as well. I had come off
10:40
Speaker 2: my own experience sailing for a few months in the
10:43
Speaker 2: Caribbean in a much different setting, but still feeling the
10:47
Speaker 2: enormity of the ocean and what that is to be
10:49
Speaker 2: so isolated. And I remember distinctly When the light bulb
10:53
Speaker 2: went off with Angela, like what she was going to
10:56
Speaker 2: go do, it was when we did a prep trip
10:58
Speaker 2: to Hawaii to sort of make arrangements for her arrival.
11:01
Speaker 2: And that was January 2020, January, February. And on the
11:06
Speaker 2: flight over, just looking out of the window and contending
11:10
Speaker 2: with 2,500 miles of open Pacific Ocean and that she
11:14
Speaker 2: was going to be like an inchworm. scaling across it,
11:18
Speaker 2: it really dawned on me the scale of what she
11:21
Speaker 2: was attempting. And I really felt my stomach like drop
11:25
Speaker 2: out from under me when I looked down and understood
11:27
Speaker 2: that a five and a half hour flight at 500
11:30
Speaker 2: miles per hour still gets you across. But so I
11:34
Speaker 2: think a lot of people and myself included projected a
11:38
Speaker 2: lot of our own fear and limitations on Angela. And
11:42
Speaker 2: I think it would be inaccurate to say that she
11:46
Speaker 2: wasn't also fearful. You know, I can't speak for her,
11:48
Speaker 2: but she did have something she always said was, when
11:51
Speaker 2: in doubt, check it out. And I think Angela had
11:55
Speaker 2: a very unique relationship with fear or doubt or vulnerability
12:00
Speaker 2: or these areas in which most people, you know, we
12:04
Speaker 2: maybe pull back when there feels to be a risk
12:07
Speaker 2: or something that we're just unsure of. And Angela had
12:10
Speaker 2: repeatedly in her life trained a muscle to go pursue it,
12:14
Speaker 2: if that makes sense.
12:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, she had curiosity rather than, you know, like the
12:20
Speaker 1: avoidance that so many of us have when it comes
12:23
Speaker 1: to something scary, right?
12:25
Speaker 2: Definitely. And I think for maybe 98% of my experience
12:31
Speaker 2: with Angela, she felt... largely impenetrable to fear with a
12:36
Speaker 2: couple major exceptions in that. And one of those was
12:40
Speaker 2: during the ocean row. And I don't mean to jump ahead,
12:42
Speaker 2: but I'm happy to kind of share when that stood
12:44
Speaker 2: out to me, if that's useful.
12:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, let's jump ahead. Let's get into the ocean row.
12:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Angela left late April of 2020. We're in
12:56
Speaker 2: the midst of a global pandemic. People are on lockdown,
12:58
Speaker 2: not even able to leave their homes. And Angela had
13:02
Speaker 2: gotten special permission from the Coast Guard and the Harbor
13:05
Speaker 2: Patrol in Marina del Rey to leave. And so she
13:09
Speaker 2: was actually like shepherded out by the Harbor Patrol. And
13:13
Speaker 2: it was a very minimal crew of people, myself, Deb,
13:16
Speaker 2: her partner, and just two other filmmakers, essentially, who were
13:19
Speaker 2: there to document it. And she slipped away into the
13:22
Speaker 2: night to begin her dramatic row across the ocean. Those
13:27
Speaker 2: first few days are extremely dangerous and extremely difficult. The
13:31
Speaker 2: California continental shelf is just infamously the most challenging part
13:37
Speaker 2: of the Pacific Ocean.
13:38
Speaker 1: Very difficult to get out.
13:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. Very difficult. She pushed through that. And she had, honestly,
13:44
Speaker 2: a really terrible season of weather, which no one can predict.
13:49
Speaker 2: You can prepare for it, but once you're in it,
13:51
Speaker 2: you're in it, and there's not much you can do.
13:53
Speaker 2: And she had a lot of Highs and lows, those
13:57
Speaker 2: first probably dozen to 20 days of just brutal, brutal
14:00
Speaker 2: weather that most of us back on land were kind
14:04
Speaker 2: of just waiting for her to call it. She was
14:06
Speaker 2: not so far away that she couldn't have a reasonable
14:09
Speaker 2: rescue out of the coastline and come back. She pushed
14:12
Speaker 2: through the worst of it and is sailing right along
14:16
Speaker 2: on course on sort of the downhill trend to Hawaii.
14:20
Speaker 2: And lo and behold, when everything feels sunny and good,
14:24
Speaker 2: her meteorologist, who's in the film, whose name is Miles Muzio,
14:28
Speaker 2: lets Angela know that a cyclone has cropped up on radar.
14:32
Speaker 2: It's very early for a cyclone in the season. And
14:35
Speaker 2: she needs to make serious preparations for this. And something
14:40
Speaker 2: had happened earlier in her row where she lost a
14:42
Speaker 2: very crucial piece of equipment that would have enabled her
14:45
Speaker 2: to deploy what's called a parachute anchor, which is essentially
14:47
Speaker 2: their anchor that they drop in open ocean.
14:51
Speaker 1: And it holds them in place through all kinds of weather.
14:55
Speaker 2: Exactly. It tethers them to the sea surface. So if
14:58
Speaker 2: hurricane winds of 100 miles per hour blowing through, you're
15:00
Speaker 2: not lifted up and slammed back down. And so this
15:03
Speaker 2: was an essential repair that she had to make. but
15:06
Speaker 2: it required of her to get out of her boat. Now,
15:09
Speaker 2: important to establish, Angela had done this hundreds of times
15:13
Speaker 2: in her life. She was very, very experienced at getting
15:16
Speaker 2: off and on the boat. You tend to avoid it.
15:18
Speaker 2: It's not like a preferable thing to do as an
15:21
Speaker 2: ocean rower, but it happens.
15:22
Speaker 1: But it's something you prepare for. Like, I don't think
15:25
Speaker 1: you can be an ocean rower without... being extremely well-versed
15:28
Speaker 1: in emergency situations, or at least, you know, if not emergency,
15:32
Speaker 1: bad weather coming, right?
15:34
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. So Angela did exactly that. She let us
15:37
Speaker 2: know that she was going to make a repair first
15:40
Speaker 2: light in the morning. She gets out of her boat
15:43
Speaker 2: to make this repair, and that was the last we
15:47
Speaker 2: ever heard from her. And hours went by, and Deb,
15:50
Speaker 2: her partner, reached out to me And said, something's wrong.
15:55
Speaker 2: I just feel it in my stomach. Normally, Angela would
15:57
Speaker 2: always let me know that she made it safely back
16:00
Speaker 2: on board. And we gave it some time. We, you know,
16:05
Speaker 2: we didn't want to doubt her. Or assume the worst, right? Exactly.
16:10
Speaker 2: But we were really attentive to the pattern. You could
16:12
Speaker 2: see on the GPS, her tracker, her speed, all of that.
16:16
Speaker 2: And after a certain point, we made the decision to
16:19
Speaker 2: call in a Coast Guard rescue or just get more
16:22
Speaker 2: options of what would happen if we didn't hear from her.
16:25
Speaker 2: At which point, the Coast Guard lets us know that
16:28
Speaker 2: the specific area she's in, in the Pacific Ocean, which
16:31
Speaker 2: is to say exactly halfway between Hawaii and Los Angeles,
16:35
Speaker 2: is a notorious dead patch for satellite reception.
16:40
Speaker 1: So it gave you some hope, like maybe it's just this, right?
16:44
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You're looking for anything.
16:46
Speaker 1: Right. You're like, okay, I mean, we all have that,
16:48
Speaker 1: you know, you have it in your own, in your
16:50
Speaker 1: own neighborhood sometimes. That's the dead patch. You don't get
16:53
Speaker 1: cell reception. What, how many days had she been out
16:56
Speaker 1: at this point when this?
16:58
Speaker 2: This was day 60. So day 60? Day 60, yes.
17:02
Speaker 1: So six zero, which is the same age she was
17:05
Speaker 1: while she's making this row, right? She had just turned,
17:07
Speaker 1: she had turned 60 during the row.
17:11
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. She was born in 1960 as well.
17:22
Speaker 1: I want to just pause here to first say that
17:26
Speaker 1: the other thing that had accumulated by then, I would
17:28
Speaker 1: guess by, by day 60 is like, okay, she's, she's
17:33
Speaker 1: had all these trials. She's had this difficult thing. She's
17:36
Speaker 1: gotten off the California coast and things are going well, even,
17:41
Speaker 1: even when they're challenging.
17:42
Speaker 2: Right.
17:43
Speaker 1: So there is this sense of confidence or like, you know,
17:47
Speaker 1: she's halfway there. Do you, do you have this kind
17:49
Speaker 1: of building sense of success? Did, did Deb feel that way?
17:51
Speaker 1: I mean, What was your state of mind when you
17:54
Speaker 1: started to have these concerns about Angela's safety?
17:58
Speaker 2: That was exactly correct. We felt really confident at which
18:03
Speaker 2: point she was at. We really felt like the worst
18:04
Speaker 2: was behind her. We called it her Kraken moment. She
18:07
Speaker 2: had kind of escaped the fangs of what the Pacific
18:11
Speaker 2: could do before she got through what is largely considered
18:15
Speaker 2: the downhill slope, where the currents and the wind is
18:18
Speaker 2: really at your back. And so you get this lift,
18:21
Speaker 2: she estimated, it would take her 30 days to reach
18:24
Speaker 2: the island, which is twice as fast as what it
18:26
Speaker 2: took her to get to this middle point. Though she
18:29
Speaker 2: had already been through the worst of it, and that's
18:31
Speaker 2: why this cyclone cropping up was just... It was unusual
18:34
Speaker 2: for the time of year, and it was also unusual
18:37
Speaker 2: for its trajectory, that it was going to hit that
18:40
Speaker 2: far north still. It would normally be more of a
18:42
Speaker 2: South Pacific storm. So we were sort of just... hoping that,
18:48
Speaker 2: that there was, you know, you prepare for the worst,
18:51
Speaker 2: you hope for the best. And it just felt honestly,
18:55
Speaker 2: also symbolic to her life story. Like, come on, Angela,
19:00
Speaker 2: you've been, you've been through it all at this point,
19:02
Speaker 2: like this little storm, like that's nothing relative to what,
19:05
Speaker 2: you know, that doesn't hold a dime up to what
19:09
Speaker 2: you've lived against. And it just felt that it paled
19:13
Speaker 2: in comparison. And to whatever extent that hope or even
19:17
Speaker 2: like audacity to hope that much carried us through, it did.
19:21
Speaker 2: And the moment of fear that I remember really concretely
19:24
Speaker 2: with Angela was actually the night before she got out
19:27
Speaker 2: of the boat to make a repair. She texted me
19:30
Speaker 2: and she was asking if my friends in the Coast
19:34
Speaker 2: Guard were reachable. And there was some language she used
19:40
Speaker 2: in there that made me realize she was observing me
19:44
Speaker 2: a new trend in the weather and in the ocean
19:47
Speaker 2: that of all people, she would have been exceptionally successful.
19:50
Speaker 2: to after 60 days of just being in this environment
19:54
Speaker 2: and that tonal shift is just something I'll never forget
19:58
Speaker 2: of something was looming and she really.
20:02
Speaker 1: Said you detected like a tiny bit of apprehension or
20:06
Speaker 1: fear or caution and Exactly.
20:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. Fear.
20:10
Speaker 1: Yeah.
20:10
Speaker 2: It was the first time I really concretely detected Angela
20:13
Speaker 2: was scared.
20:16
Speaker 1: So why does one have to get in to the
20:19
Speaker 1: water to deploy this parachute anchor?
20:22
Speaker 2: So you don't normally have to get in to deploy it.
20:24
Speaker 2: But what had happened is she had had a run
20:27
Speaker 2: in with an island earlier in her row and the piece,
20:32
Speaker 2: the connective piece broke off. So she had to get
20:35
Speaker 2: in the water to basically fuse that back on.
20:38
Speaker 1: To repair it.
20:39
Speaker 2: Exactly. It was the shackle that kind of holds it
20:42
Speaker 2: to the bow. And there was kind of no way
20:44
Speaker 2: around that except to get in and swim.
20:47
Speaker 1: Okay. So you get that text from her. And I'm
20:51
Speaker 1: sure Deb, too, is getting communications from her. And I
20:54
Speaker 1: want to say just... Deb is such a big part
20:57
Speaker 1: of your beautiful film.
20:59
Speaker 2: And.
21:00
Speaker 1: the story you tell about their relationship is both sweet
21:06
Speaker 1: and moving and also really painful and powerful. You know,
21:10
Speaker 1: the sort of mountains they had to climb as lesbians
21:15
Speaker 1: who were, you know, I think reluctant to come out
21:18
Speaker 1: at different parts of their lives. And I just want
21:22
Speaker 1: to say, you know, that she's such a big part
21:24
Speaker 1: of this journey as well. And you capture that beautifully
21:27
Speaker 1: in the film.
21:29
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yes, I think that is, she has her
21:31
Speaker 2: own really remarkable arc in life, but also in the film.
21:35
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the two of you are in communication. You've
21:38
Speaker 1: not heard from Angela. What happens next?
21:42
Speaker 2: So at a certain point, I made a decision to
21:45
Speaker 2: call the Coast Guard. And largely it was sort of
21:48
Speaker 2: get information. What are our options? She's way out in
21:51
Speaker 2: the middle of nowhere. Could a rescue even be sent?
21:55
Speaker 2: The answer to that was no. We could dispatch a plane.
22:00
Speaker 2: You can't send a helicopter. It's way too far away.
22:02
Speaker 2: You can send a plane and someone could fly over
22:04
Speaker 2: and see if she's even tethered to the boat, whatever's
22:06
Speaker 2: going on. And then the Coast Guard sent out a
22:10
Speaker 2: search and rescue call where the closest vessel was a
22:13
Speaker 2: shipping vessel headed to Tahiti that actually completely changed its
22:17
Speaker 2: course and went full speed to go save And I
22:21
Speaker 2: just want to comment that that is a remarkable part
22:24
Speaker 2: of maritime safety, that it is required by law. If
22:27
Speaker 2: you are the closest vessel to someone in distress, you
22:29
Speaker 2: have to go help them. And that is exactly what
22:32
Speaker 2: the shipping vessel Polynesia did. And so a good length
22:37
Speaker 2: of time elapsed this, um, C-17 aircraft flew overhead. They
22:42
Speaker 2: saw the boat. They couldn't quite make out if Angela
22:45
Speaker 2: was there or not, at which point this stormy sea
22:48
Speaker 2: state is really mounting. So the added layers of unsafety
22:53
Speaker 2: are getting more serious for any kind of rescue as well. Um,
22:58
Speaker 2: eventually the Polynesia does arrive. It's having a very difficult
23:03
Speaker 2: time even getting in touch with the Coast Guard. So
23:05
Speaker 2: this notorious dead patch. So we're still pinning our hopes
23:09
Speaker 2: that like there is a reasonable explanation for why we're
23:12
Speaker 2: not hearing from her.
23:13
Speaker 1: And they're going to show up. So how many hours
23:16
Speaker 1: did it take the Polynesia to reach to reach? And
23:20
Speaker 1: I will say, Angela's boat is also called Row of Life.
23:23
Speaker 1: The film is named the same as the boat. How
23:25
Speaker 1: long did it take that vessel to reach Row of Life?
23:29
Speaker 2: It was about 25 hours. Oh, okay.
23:32
Speaker 1: So this is not a few hour detour. This is
23:35
Speaker 1: like you guys are waiting more than a day. Yeah. Yep.
23:40
Speaker 2: We placed the search and rescue call at night. So
23:42
Speaker 2: they had to wait until first light to even send
23:45
Speaker 2: the plane. The plane took, you know, probably four or
23:48
Speaker 2: five hours and then didn't really have definitive information for us.
23:52
Speaker 2: And so we were just waiting, waiting, waiting. I was
23:55
Speaker 2: at Deb and Angela's house at around 11 p.m. when
23:58
Speaker 2: the call came through. And it was the first time
24:02
Speaker 2: Deb's phone rang and not mine. And that was a
24:06
Speaker 2: moment like just the sobriety of that really hit. And
24:11
Speaker 2: Deb sits down and as you see in the film,
24:14
Speaker 2: she asks me to stop filming. And I just cut
24:18
Speaker 2: the video, but we keep the audio. And that's when
24:20
Speaker 2: they have finally received word from the Polynesia that they
24:25
Speaker 2: found Angela and sadly she didn't make it. and that
24:28
Speaker 2: they were recovering her body, but they were going to
24:30
Speaker 2: leave the boat with all of her personal belongings, including
24:34
Speaker 2: all the cameras and footage of her last 60 days,
24:37
Speaker 2: on board in a drift. And the reason for that
24:40
Speaker 2: was the sea state was way too dangerous for them
24:42
Speaker 2: to lift it on board.
24:43
Speaker 1: So they just are getting Angela herself on board. And
24:48
Speaker 1: was she in the water? It's believed that she drowned?
24:53
Speaker 2: Yes. So her cause of death is drowning, but it's still...
24:57
Speaker 2: It's still pretty unclear what really happened. There were no,
25:01
Speaker 2: you know, no signs of struggle of her trying to
25:06
Speaker 2: get back on board. She never she didn't have any
25:08
Speaker 2: concussion or anything like that. It could be very likely
25:12
Speaker 2: that what happened is she just became hypothermic. And due
25:15
Speaker 2: to being a paraplegic, didn't feel it until it had
25:18
Speaker 2: reached her lungs. This is speculative. I don't have a
25:21
Speaker 2: definitive answer, but that's sort of our best leading theory
25:24
Speaker 2: right now. But cause of death was drowning. And again,
25:27
Speaker 2: it just felt like this was an impossible verdict that
25:33
Speaker 2: someone with the life force of Angela, that that could
25:36
Speaker 2: just be snuffed in such a simple and irreversible moment.
25:40
Speaker 2: And in my case, I was 22. It was the
25:43
Speaker 2: first time that I had ever lost anyone that close
25:47
Speaker 2: to me. And of course that just so actively involved
25:51
Speaker 2: with every second of what's going on in their living
25:53
Speaker 2: and waking moments.
25:55
Speaker 1: And also to witness, to be there witnessing Debra's horrific loss.
26:02
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, it's such a, I think,
26:08
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many reasons that I loved
26:09
Speaker 1: the film and was moved by it, but, you know,
26:12
Speaker 1: I think that the classic story, the great athletes. It's
26:17
Speaker 1: about triumph, right? And it's about struggle and suffering. And
26:22
Speaker 1: certainly Angela endured a lot of that and overcame that.
26:25
Speaker 1: But like her message and probably like what, you know,
26:29
Speaker 1: the message of her life was one of resilience. And
26:33
Speaker 1: to have this amazing athlete die in the course of
26:38
Speaker 1: undertaking this feat. It's just incredibly tragic and terrible. And
26:44
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that really any ideas about the film mattering
26:50
Speaker 1: kind of went out the door because of course the
26:52
Speaker 1: human toll is so immense.
26:57
Speaker 2: That's exactly correct. I did not feel one iota of
27:02
Speaker 2: obligation to still make the film at all. In fact,
27:05
Speaker 2: it felt extremely in poor taste after what had happened
27:09
Speaker 2: and also not just the wrong ending. It was a,
27:13
Speaker 2: it was the wrong ending to a completely different film.
27:15
Speaker 2: And it was within days, Deb and Angela's daughter-in-law came
27:22
Speaker 2: back to me and said, you know, we were figuring
27:24
Speaker 2: out arrangements for how to recover Angela's body and the
27:26
Speaker 2: boat and a lot was going on. And they said that,
27:29
Speaker 2: very concretely that finishing the film is the most important objective.
27:36
Speaker 2: That Angela wanted that more than anything else because it
27:40
Speaker 2: came down to her feeling like she had a legacy
27:44
Speaker 2: and a destiny in her story. The reason she had
27:47
Speaker 2: to go through what she went through was because her
27:49
Speaker 2: story had a purpose. It was meant to be amplified
27:53
Speaker 2: at a larger level. And that seeing through with the
27:57
Speaker 2: film was an accomplishment of that. And so it definitely
28:01
Speaker 2: took some convincing. And it, of course, did not happen
28:03
Speaker 2: right away. It took years for us to figure out
28:06
Speaker 2: how to make the film. And I happened to get
28:08
Speaker 2: some really good advice from a filmmaker mentor named Peter Mortimer,
28:12
Speaker 2: who's a big outdoor filmmaker. He did The Dark Wizard,
28:16
Speaker 2: The Dawn Wall, films like that. And he had lost
28:19
Speaker 2: a subject in a different film he made. And he
28:22
Speaker 2: called me and he said, anything that you think this
28:25
Speaker 2: story is about, throw it out the window. It's not
28:28
Speaker 2: about that anymore. And it's going to take you a
28:30
Speaker 2: long time to sit with this and see what it
28:32
Speaker 2: really is trying to say. And that was really good
28:35
Speaker 2: advice that I needed in the moment. It kind of
28:37
Speaker 2: removed this pressure cooker of, well, what is this film?
28:39
Speaker 2: What is it? What is it? And it's like, I
28:41
Speaker 2: don't know yet. I have to go through this catalyst
28:44
Speaker 2: of grief to examine that. Right.
28:46
Speaker 1: You have to grieve as a human. And then as
28:49
Speaker 1: an artist, you have to reconceptualize because like I said,
28:52
Speaker 1: you're not telling the classic story of the great athlete
28:55
Speaker 1: who triumphs and claims victory. In some ways, I mean,
29:00
Speaker 1: in so many ways, I think, and I wonder what
29:02
Speaker 1: you think about this, that Angela, you know, was a
29:07
Speaker 1: champion in You know, that like the way that she
29:10
Speaker 1: lived her life and conducted herself in her sport and
29:13
Speaker 1: dedicated herself to those achievements that like she really like
29:19
Speaker 1: set her sights on, you know, is every bit as
29:23
Speaker 1: inspiring as any kind of victory. You know, the fact
29:26
Speaker 1: that her life ended tragically doesn't in any way subtract
29:30
Speaker 1: from the way she lived it.
29:34
Speaker 2: I do wholeheartedly agree with that. I think Angela had
29:37
Speaker 2: every excuse possible to decide the situation. one out and
29:40
Speaker 2: not engage with being alive. And, and she did exactly
29:45
Speaker 2: the opposite at every juncture. And I think she, for
29:48
Speaker 2: me really answered this question of, well, I can't do
29:52
Speaker 2: anything about it. So what am I going to do
29:54
Speaker 2: with it? And that was a very deep lesson to
29:58
Speaker 2: learn in my early 20s that I completely learned from Angela.
30:01
Speaker 1: I can't do anything about it. So what do I
30:05
Speaker 1: do with it? Those are some words to live by,
30:07
Speaker 1: aren't they? That's amazing.
30:10
Speaker 2: It's helped me a lot. And I think she answered
30:13
Speaker 2: that again and again. I mean, when your body is
30:15
Speaker 2: literally taken from you, she went through a lot. She
30:19
Speaker 2: was a single mom when she was in the Marine Corps.
30:21
Speaker 2: She got pregnant when she was 17. She lost her
30:23
Speaker 2: daughter the year before her final row um and Angela.
30:28
Speaker 1: Had endured for a time of her life.
30:30
Speaker 2: She was homeless yeah she had endured more than the
30:33
Speaker 2: average Joe and still was giggly and smiley and embraced
30:39
Speaker 2: just the fragility and the wonderfulness of being alive and
30:44
Speaker 2: I I mean Shepo I think like that gets a
30:47
Speaker 2: lot of credit.
30:56
Speaker 1: Her body was taken from the sea, but that boat
31:01
Speaker 1: with your cameras was left adrift. And so that's the
31:04
Speaker 1: other thing. I think that I can see why, you know,
31:07
Speaker 1: emotionally you would think, I don't have this story. I
31:09
Speaker 1: don't know what the story is anymore. And you take
31:12
Speaker 1: this time away to figure it out again, to see
31:14
Speaker 1: if you even should continue with the film and honor
31:16
Speaker 1: Deborah's wishes that you do that. But how did you
31:20
Speaker 1: technically and logistically make this film when you... Presumably lost
31:24
Speaker 1: all that footage, right? The cameras that were mounted on
31:27
Speaker 1: the boat were no more.
31:29
Speaker 2: That is correct. It vanished with the wind in a
31:32
Speaker 2: Category 4 hurricane. A few months later, it was hit
31:36
Speaker 2: directly and presumably sank. There was no way anything could
31:41
Speaker 2: survive that storm. And so I... tried really hard to
31:46
Speaker 2: let go of that because of course the preciousness of
31:49
Speaker 2: its contents of what Angela would have left us in
31:51
Speaker 2: those last 60 days of her story, there's just no
31:55
Speaker 2: words to put that into value. And I consulted with
32:00
Speaker 2: drift course experts and PhDs at universities and tried to
32:04
Speaker 2: get a sense if the boat is still floating miraculously,
32:07
Speaker 2: where might it wash up? And most people said the
32:10
Speaker 2: Philippines and it was one Salty sailor, salvage vessel operator
32:16
Speaker 2: in Hawaii who told me his name is Michael Parker.
32:19
Speaker 2: He told me that boat's going to wash up in
32:21
Speaker 2: the Marshall Islands. I'll bet my life on it. And
32:23
Speaker 2: when I'm right, you owe me $ 20. Michael Parker was
32:27
Speaker 2: completely right. In one year, the boat washed up in
32:30
Speaker 2: an extremely remote atoll in Micronesia in the Marshall Islands.
32:36
Speaker 2: Not just any atoll, but the same atoll that pieces
32:39
Speaker 2: of Amelia Earhart's claim were found.
32:42
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my goodness.
32:46
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a goosebump evoking thing. And I that that especially,
32:50
Speaker 2: you know, marked me because I'd always said, Oh, Angela
32:55
Speaker 2: is like the Amelia Earhart of the sea, which is
32:57
Speaker 2: to your point about sure, it's not. a hero's journey
33:00
Speaker 2: in the traditional sense, but in a more kind of
33:03
Speaker 2: metaphysical sense, like then what, how, who is, what is
33:07
Speaker 2: this legacy now in the absence of the physical realm, right?
33:11
Speaker 2: And so this boat washes up with everything on board
33:15
Speaker 2: and everything intact. And this is where our friends at
33:18
Speaker 2: Mountain Film helped us out. They offered us a grant
33:21
Speaker 2: for us to travel out to the Marshall Islands. And unfortunately,
33:25
Speaker 2: it took us a very long time to get down
33:27
Speaker 2: there with COVID-19, pandemic logistics. They weren't opening the islands
33:31
Speaker 2: to any outsiders. The day that boundary was lifted, we
33:37
Speaker 2: were on a flight out there, at which point the
33:39
Speaker 2: boat had already sat for almost a year.
33:42
Speaker 1: Wow. In this tropical environment, you're, I'm sure, aware that
33:46
Speaker 1: things are falling apart.
33:49
Speaker 2: Falling apart. And also, it's a very remote region of
33:53
Speaker 2: the world where people rely on anything for survival. And
33:58
Speaker 2: here you have an alien spacecraft that's washed up, that's
34:01
Speaker 2: filled with ramen and iPads and weird smelly clothes and
34:07
Speaker 2: all of these things inside of it. And by the
34:09
Speaker 2: time we got to the boat, it had been completely ransacked.
34:13
Speaker 2: And I don't say this in any way to blame people,
34:16
Speaker 2: because I think I would have done the same if
34:18
Speaker 2: I were in their position. But those cameras and that
34:21
Speaker 2: footage that was of tremendous value to me was pawned
34:25
Speaker 2: for five bucks here, two bucks there, as just a
34:28
Speaker 2: technological piece of equipment. And so we spent a long
34:32
Speaker 2: time in the Marshall Islands, about a month, chasing rumors
34:36
Speaker 2: and trying to find folks who had any remnants left
34:40
Speaker 2: and We ultimately came back with just a few souvenirs
34:44
Speaker 2: that we could bring Deb. We brought the rowing seat.
34:46
Speaker 2: We brought the American flag. We brought Angela's cards of identification,
34:51
Speaker 2: but no footage of her row. And so here I
34:54
Speaker 2: was left with this same question. Well, I can't do
34:56
Speaker 2: anything about this. So what can I do with this?
34:59
Speaker 2: And that was when Deb really became honestly a partner
35:03
Speaker 2: as a storyteller. And she said, I have 15 years
35:07
Speaker 2: of footage of Angela from past rows. Why don't we
35:09
Speaker 2: start there? Let's just look at what we have in
35:12
Speaker 2: that archival. And bit by bit, we started to piece
35:15
Speaker 2: together the story of the 2020 row in utmost accuracy
35:20
Speaker 2: for what actually happened. But we had to replace certain
35:23
Speaker 2: beats with archival footage just to world build, to bring
35:27
Speaker 2: you into the story of what it's like to live
35:29
Speaker 2: alone on the Pacific.
35:30
Speaker 1: So....
35:32
Speaker 2: You did that beautifully.
35:34
Speaker 1: I just want to pause here. I mean, I'm a documentary,
35:37
Speaker 1: I'm a major documentary fan, have even ventured and done
35:42
Speaker 1: some actual work on documentary films myself. I had read
35:46
Speaker 1: that about, and I think you even put like in
35:48
Speaker 1: the film itself, like this is an actual footage from
35:52
Speaker 1: her row. But like, if you hadn't said that, I
35:54
Speaker 1: wouldn't have known it. And you very seamlessly give us
35:59
Speaker 1: that feeling that we're on that final expedition with Angela.
36:03
Speaker 1: But that's footage that you took, well, that was taken,
36:07
Speaker 1: that you didn't take necessarily, but that was taken over
36:09
Speaker 1: the year.
36:10
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, it makes me feel really good to
36:12
Speaker 2: hear you say that. It's not constructed in any way
36:15
Speaker 2: to deceive. It's constructed to transport because we want you
36:19
Speaker 2: to be in the story. We don't want you to
36:20
Speaker 2: be distracted by what's missing. We want you to still
36:23
Speaker 2: just bear witness to what Angela went through. And some
36:27
Speaker 2: people pick out now that when they know they can
36:29
Speaker 2: find the little clues here and there. Um, but it's
36:32
Speaker 2: kind of beside the point. It's more just how did
36:35
Speaker 2: we do a good job rendering it to the best
36:38
Speaker 2: that we could. And I would give anything to have
36:41
Speaker 2: the original footage, of course. Um, but you, you, you
36:45
Speaker 2: do what you can with what you got. Absolutely.
36:48
Speaker 1: And you know, I, I, I know it's, you know,
36:52
Speaker 1: you're 30 now, right? You recently had a birthday.
36:56
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. How does it feel?
37:00
Speaker 1: You've entered this next decade.
37:03
Speaker 2: Is it supposed to feel different? I'm still waiting for the...
37:06
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know. I feel 50.
37:10
Speaker 1: You're supposed to feel officially grown up, Soraya.
37:14
Speaker 2: Okay. It hasn't hit me yet, but I'll let you know.
37:16
Speaker 1: Give it another decade, okay? You won't really be grown
37:21
Speaker 1: up until you're in your 40s, I hate to tell you.
37:23
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're getting close.
37:26
Speaker 2: You're getting warmer.
37:27
Speaker 1: But you know, I... I, one thing that's often said,
37:31
Speaker 1: like I said, because my late husband was a documentary
37:34
Speaker 1: filmmaker and people will often say things like, you know,
37:37
Speaker 1: it took her six years to make this film, six
37:40
Speaker 1: years in the making, rule of life. And I'm like, yeah,
37:42
Speaker 1: that's like basically the average documentary as far as I'm concerned.
37:46
Speaker 1: I mean, your documentary did have some particular challenges, but
37:50
Speaker 1: I will say that it's almost always a journey in itself.
37:54
Speaker 1: to getting that film made, whether it be all of
37:58
Speaker 1: your footage, you know, ends up on an island and
38:01
Speaker 1: disappears or, you know, funding issues or really just story issues,
38:06
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out what is this story about?
38:09
Speaker 1: And so, you know, we've talked about Angela's journey. I'm
38:13
Speaker 1: curious about your own journey as a filmmaker and as
38:16
Speaker 1: somebody who has documented so devotedly, you know, somebody else's life. Like,
38:22
Speaker 1: what did that feel like when that film premiered at
38:25
Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara International Film Fest? Was it earlier this
38:29
Speaker 1: year or was it last year?
38:30
Speaker 2: It was February 2025, so last year.
38:34
Speaker 1: Okay, so about a year and a half ago. And now,
38:36
Speaker 1: tell my listeners where they can watch it. Sure, of course.
38:41
Speaker 2: It's available for rent on all your typical... Apple TV, Amazon,
38:46
Speaker 2: it's on Documentary Plus, which I'm a huge advocate for.
38:49
Speaker 2: If you love documentaries, that's the place to live. It's
38:52
Speaker 2: also available directly on our website. So if you're international,
38:55
Speaker 2: a lot of people who are in wherever country, you
38:58
Speaker 2: can rent it from us directly on our website. And yes,
39:02
Speaker 2: the experience of, I mean, I just can't, for whatever filmmaker,
39:07
Speaker 2: anyone who's stuck in the middle of something that doesn't
39:10
Speaker 2: see the light at the end of the tunnel, The
39:12
Speaker 2: feeling of finishing what you start is so deeply gratifying.
39:16
Speaker 2: And I think for me, there was a very profound
39:21
Speaker 2: gift in that. It's a reward, I think, that's paying
39:25
Speaker 2: compound interest for me in my life because I really
39:28
Speaker 2: hope it doesn't get harder than Roe Life for a
39:30
Speaker 2: film to make. I think I really went through the
39:33
Speaker 2: ringer in that one and to come out the other
39:35
Speaker 2: side and feel so proud of finishing what I started
39:39
Speaker 2: for honoring a promise that I made Angela and Deb
39:42
Speaker 2: and for feeling that the work is actually reflective of
39:44
Speaker 2: what it should be. I hold Angela on the highest
39:47
Speaker 2: of pedestals. And it feels really wonderful to feel like
39:53
Speaker 2: you made a monument for someone that you love a lot.
39:56
Speaker 2: And I think Angela asking me to tell her story
39:59
Speaker 2: was a very well-disguised gift in so many ways. And
40:06
Speaker 2: I feel immensely responsible to do well with that. And yeah,
40:12
Speaker 2: it was a crazy journey through the 20s. It taught
40:14
Speaker 2: me a lot about an entrepreneurial skill set I didn't
40:17
Speaker 2: know I have. It taught me a lot about just
40:19
Speaker 2: always finding different avenues of if it's a no from
40:22
Speaker 2: this angle, that just means the yes is somewhere else,
40:25
Speaker 2: but I have to sit out still. And that mindset
40:28
Speaker 2: was really, it forced me to grow up in a
40:32
Speaker 2: really interesting way, professionally and personally. And so, yeah, I
40:36
Speaker 2: just feel incredibly grateful. It was a very, very big
40:39
Speaker 2: first film. And I look forward to what comes next.
40:52
Speaker 1: And so now, Soraya, your moment has arrived on this podcast.
40:59
Speaker 1: We don't just talk about the amazing achievements of incredible women.
41:04
Speaker 1: We also give some advice. And I have a Dear
41:08
Speaker 1: Sugar letter. Would you help me answer it? Sure, I'd
41:12
Speaker 1: be happy to.
41:14
Speaker 2: Yay.
41:14
Speaker 1: Okay, let me read it to you. Dear Sugar, I'm
41:18
Speaker 1: graduating from school in a few weeks, and then I'll
41:20
Speaker 1: do my final exams. I dated a fellow student for
41:23
Speaker 1: some time and I was desperately heartbroken when our relationship
41:26
Speaker 1: came to an end a year and a half ago.
41:29
Speaker 1: I've thought about him every single day since we broke up,
41:32
Speaker 1: which I seriously hate to admit. He was my first love,
41:35
Speaker 1: my first relationship, and my first intimacy. Since our breakup,
41:40
Speaker 1: I've dated way too many guys, all as an attempt
41:43
Speaker 1: to get over my sad self. I sought out those
41:46
Speaker 1: other relationships because I wanted to gain back the way
41:49
Speaker 1: I felt when I was with him, but it never worked.
41:52
Speaker 1: My dilemma is that I'll never see him again after
41:54
Speaker 1: this part of our lives ends, and I'm trying to
41:57
Speaker 1: decide if I should speak to him to tell him
41:59
Speaker 1: how I feel. I see him often and we exchange
42:02
Speaker 1: a million glances, but since our breakup, we've never spoken.
42:06
Speaker 1: When I see him, there's always something on the tip
42:08
Speaker 1: of my tongue, but the words never manage to come out.
42:12
Speaker 1: I know I'll see him over the coming weeks, but
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Speaker 1: I don't know if I should take the opportunity to
42:16
Speaker 1: say what I want to say or if I should
42:18
Speaker 1: just let it go. My friends fill my brain with
42:21
Speaker 1: the delusion that he probably feels the same way I do,
42:24
Speaker 1: but I doubt that's true. I don't want to keep
42:27
Speaker 1: second-guessing it anymore, though I fear that if I do
42:29
Speaker 1: say something to him and he doesn't feel as I do,
42:32
Speaker 1: I'll think about him even more. I don't want to
42:36
Speaker 1: be full of regret. Please lead me in the right direction. Signed,
42:40
Speaker 1: Undecided Okay.
42:44
Speaker 2: Undecided. Gosh. I have both a yes and a no
42:51
Speaker 2: for undecided. And the yes is easier to answer. The
42:54
Speaker 2: yes is actually a hell yes. You should tell this
42:57
Speaker 2: gentleman how you really feel. Because I think at the
43:01
Speaker 2: end of the day, it doesn't sound like there's much
43:04
Speaker 2: to lose other than a relationship that already isn't actively
43:07
Speaker 2: in existence. And I think what's to gain is Always
43:11
Speaker 2: trusting that you're going to be true to your own heart,
43:14
Speaker 2: as cheesy as that sounds. I think that's a form
43:17
Speaker 2: of self-preservation and self-protection is bearing that honesty. And it's
43:22
Speaker 2: so scary and so risky, but that's a very, very
43:25
Speaker 2: deep relationship with yourself. And then the no is only
43:29
Speaker 2: because I don't know who broke up with who in
43:32
Speaker 2: this story. And I have just observed through my own
43:38
Speaker 2: anecdotal evidence that... I think, you know, boys are, they
43:44
Speaker 2: have phone numbers, emails, addresses, they know how to, they
43:48
Speaker 2: know how to reach you if they want to. And
43:50
Speaker 2: I really think there's something to be said for that
43:54
Speaker 2: sort of like masculine energy of pursuit as well, that,
44:00
Speaker 2: you know, not knowing the entirety of their story, I
44:03
Speaker 2: just think the permission to release an attachment and move
44:08
Speaker 2: on and find the person that's excited to pursue you
44:11
Speaker 2: to the degree you want to pursue them is a
44:15
Speaker 2: gift as well. That's like permission to go be free.
44:18
Speaker 2: And so that's where I'd say those are both sides
44:21
Speaker 2: of the same coin.
44:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, that's, I think that
44:25
Speaker 1: that is so, I love the like, what do you
44:28
Speaker 1: have to lose approach? Because I also felt that like,
44:32
Speaker 1: this undecided does seem like really fixated on this idea
44:36
Speaker 1: of like, I have this thing on the tip of
44:38
Speaker 1: my tongue. I don't want to have regret. But, you know,
44:41
Speaker 1: the thing I would caution, which I don't even know
44:43
Speaker 1: is possible, but like if you aspire to this undecided,
44:47
Speaker 1: is that any expression, whether it be verbal, like actually
44:51
Speaker 1: talking to this guy, or maybe a safer approach would
44:55
Speaker 1: be writing a letter, an old-fashioned letter, I know, um,
45:01
Speaker 1: expressing your feelings and thoughts, if you can detach as
45:05
Speaker 1: much as possible from your expectation of his response, but
45:09
Speaker 1: that rather what this is really about, maybe what it
45:13
Speaker 1: is that you don't want to regret is you don't
45:16
Speaker 1: want to regret not saying what you feel needs to
45:18
Speaker 1: be said. So if you can keep that self-contained and
45:22
Speaker 1: understand that whether he says, yeah, I feel this way too,
45:27
Speaker 1: or no, I'm not interested that like, after you've said
45:30
Speaker 1: your piece, the important thing is that you've said your piece.
45:34
Speaker 1: And so, you know, it's, it's not attached, you know,
45:38
Speaker 1: the yes or no, do you do this or not?
45:40
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with what his response is
45:42
Speaker 1: going to be. And I know that's hard because clearly,
45:47
Speaker 1: don't you agree, Sarai? Like clearly this woman wants the
45:49
Speaker 1: guy to say like, oh my God, come back, baby.
45:52
Speaker 1: I miss you.
45:52
Speaker 2: You know? I've been thinking of you the whole time
45:54
Speaker 2: as well.
45:55
Speaker 1: Yes. Ugh.
45:56
Speaker 2: And he might miss the ship, but I completely agree.
46:01
Speaker 2: I think it's a commitment we have to ourselves to see, honestly,
46:06
Speaker 2: back to see it through to the end. Like if
46:07
Speaker 2: that's how strongly you feel, then you owe it to
46:09
Speaker 2: yourself to explore it and then let it go. If
46:12
Speaker 2: it doesn't manifest the way you originally expected, it's okay.
46:15
Speaker 2: Then something better is on the way. For real.
46:18
Speaker 1: And I think Soraya and you and Angela and all
46:21
Speaker 1: the guests I've had on the show and me, like
46:23
Speaker 1: one of the things we've all said in one fashion
46:27
Speaker 1: or another is that at the end of the day,
46:30
Speaker 1: the most important risks we take are about truth and
46:34
Speaker 1: vulnerability and taking the chance of getting hurt or failing
46:40
Speaker 1: or being rejected. You know, and if we like, if
46:43
Speaker 1: we try to stay safe from those things, our lives
46:46
Speaker 1: will be made smaller and scared. And we don't want
46:49
Speaker 1: to have small, scaredy cat lives. We want to have
46:52
Speaker 1: big lives of love and the love you deserved. Is
46:55
Speaker 1: from the person who's super, super into you. And I
46:59
Speaker 1: do hate to say it undecided, but it doesn't seem
47:01
Speaker 1: to me that this fellow is. So I would say
47:07
Speaker 1: anything you have to say to him is about what
47:09
Speaker 1: you need to tell him, not what you're going to
47:11
Speaker 1: get back from him.
47:14
Speaker 2: Wholeheartedly agree. Mic drop. I think that's... Okay.
47:19
Speaker 1: We've got that.
47:20
Speaker 2: Taken care of. Yeah.
47:21
Speaker 1: Okay.
47:22
Speaker 2: Undecided. Okay.
47:23
Speaker 1: Undecided. We wish you luck. And also one thing I
47:27
Speaker 1: want to say too, stop thinking about this dude. Take
47:30
Speaker 1: your final exams. I'm going to be your mom here
47:33
Speaker 1: for a minute. My kids are in college. Don't be
47:36
Speaker 1: thinking about your love, your broken heart when you should
47:38
Speaker 1: be focused on your studies.
47:40
Speaker 2: Go book a one-way to Portugal. That's what we all do.
47:46
Speaker 1: That's right. Do what Soraya says, because that's good advice
47:51
Speaker 1: for real. So I want to ask you this, this really,
47:58
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I already know the answer
48:00
Speaker 1: to this, but I would love to know what you think. What,
48:04
Speaker 1: what if, if, you know, if Angela could see this
48:07
Speaker 1: film that you've made, What would she say to you?
48:11
Speaker 1: What would she think about it? And would it achieve
48:16
Speaker 1: what I think that she was hoping it would achieve
48:19
Speaker 1: when she first asked you to make it?
48:23
Speaker 2: Well, I certainly hope so. But I think if she
48:26
Speaker 2: saw it, I think, I hope that honestly it would
48:30
Speaker 2: reflect back to her the magnitude of her own life
48:33
Speaker 2: in a really interesting way. Not everyone gets an opportunity
48:36
Speaker 2: to see their life story compressed in 80 minutes. And
48:39
Speaker 2: hers is genuinely remarkable. I would be curious to hear
48:45
Speaker 2: what that evokes for her. And I really do think
48:47
Speaker 2: it would come down to Deb and her deep love
48:52
Speaker 2: for Deb and their love for each other. And I
48:55
Speaker 2: think Angela, you know, I think that for her probably
49:02
Speaker 2: always was the biggest risk was to follow her dream. Yeah.
49:07
Speaker 2: with this enormous risk of, you know, potentially being lost
49:13
Speaker 2: to that. And it's just so such an extraordinary love
49:17
Speaker 2: story that Deb commits to Andrew. dream as much as
49:21
Speaker 2: Angela does, despite bearing the ultimate cost in it. And
49:25
Speaker 2: I just, I just think that that is, there's something
49:29
Speaker 2: really profound in that love story to me of like
49:33
Speaker 2: truly unconditional love that I would be very curious to
49:37
Speaker 2: hear if Angela feels that we acknowledge that in a
49:41
Speaker 2: way that that feels right.
49:43
Speaker 1: What did Deb say to you when she first watched
49:45
Speaker 1: the film? And did you sit there in the room
49:47
Speaker 1: with her? I mean, that must have been a terrifying moment. Well,
49:50
Speaker 1: and this is the stakes are high, right? You know,
49:53
Speaker 1: she's so central. She is Angela's life partner. And it
49:58
Speaker 1: means more to her than than anything. So did you
50:02
Speaker 1: watch it together the first time?
50:04
Speaker 2: We did. And that's usually an ethical standard I just
50:07
Speaker 2: hold before I premiere a film or anything. I always
50:09
Speaker 2: want to share it with the participants.
50:12
Speaker 1: Right.
50:12
Speaker 2: But Deb was with us. Deb is not a woman
50:14
Speaker 2: of many words. She doesn't wear her heart on her sleeve.
50:17
Speaker 2: Angela gets really emotional and tear jerky. But Deb is
50:21
Speaker 2: very sober. And I'm a social worker. I feel nothing.
50:26
Speaker 2: But here's what I will say what her actions showed.
50:29
Speaker 2: She was... She didn't say much the first time we
50:31
Speaker 2: watched it. And since us taking it on this pretty
50:34
Speaker 2: incredible film tour across 85 something festivals, Deb sits down
50:39
Speaker 2: and watches the movie from start to finish every single time.
50:43
Speaker 2: She has never missed a screening and she watches it
50:46
Speaker 2: from beginning to end every single time. And I just
50:50
Speaker 2: love to entertain what happens in her own little universe
50:53
Speaker 2: where she gets to reunite with Angela those 80 minutes
50:56
Speaker 2: each time and makes me really happy.
50:59
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. So Soraya, what is next for you? Has
51:03
Speaker 1: this experience with Role of Life opened up for you,
51:06
Speaker 1: a sort of filmmaking track that you're interested in telling
51:11
Speaker 1: more stories about athletes going forward?
51:14
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm always interested in that. I think I'm interested
51:18
Speaker 2: in in underdog stories, I think I'm always interested, you know, the, the,
51:23
Speaker 2: the kind of endurance sports story that gets told again
51:25
Speaker 2: and again, I'd love to push what that format is. Um,
51:29
Speaker 2: but really, you know, we're still working, we're adapting real life.
51:33
Speaker 2: We have the script adaptation works, which is really exciting.
51:36
Speaker 2: So for me, that's a stretch into, um, narrative filmmaking. So,
51:41
Speaker 2: so that's just super cool for me. I get to
51:43
Speaker 2: try on a whole new toolkit and everything for size. And, um,
51:48
Speaker 2: It's been such a weird and wobbly road how stories
51:51
Speaker 2: have found me, the ones I want to tell versus
51:53
Speaker 2: the ones that seem to come through the crevices and
51:57
Speaker 2: use me as a vessel for it. And I tend
51:58
Speaker 2: to just go with the flow on that. It's not
52:01
Speaker 2: always an adventurous sports story. Recently, it was a women's
52:04
Speaker 2: disease documentary about endometriosis and a few others. I'm working
52:08
Speaker 2: on one about the men's wheelchair basketball team right now.
52:10
Speaker 1: So....
52:13
Speaker 2: It's just it's kind of a wide gamut. And I
52:15
Speaker 2: like I like that. I like that it sharpens my
52:18
Speaker 2: skill set as a storyteller.
52:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, yeah, the world is wide open. And I,
52:23
Speaker 1: you know, I'll be following you as your work in
52:27
Speaker 1: film wherever you go. And thank you so much for
52:30
Speaker 1: making such a beautiful film. And I and I hope listeners,
52:33
Speaker 1: all of you go and find Row of Life and
52:35
Speaker 1: watch it. I promise it will make you cry and
52:38
Speaker 1: laugh and feel good. inspired and renewed. So Soraya, thank
52:42
Speaker 1: you for being here on Mind Over Mountain and for
52:46
Speaker 1: this wonderful conversation.
52:48
Speaker 2: Cheryl, thank you. This has been really wonderful.
52:50
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. If you'd like to write to me
52:52
Speaker 1: seeking advice, please send me an email at deardearsugar at gmail.com.
52:57
Speaker 1: And don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you
53:00
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Happy trails, and I'll see you next week.
53:05
Speaker 1: Mind Over Mountain with Cheryl Strayed is an iHeart Women's
53:08
Speaker 1: Sports production produced by Brittany Brown and Rodney Brown of
53:11
Speaker 1: Barbara Jean Productions. Supervising producer is Kaylin West at Realm.
53:17
Speaker 1: Associate producer, Amaya Brathwaite. Our executive producers are Molly Barton,
53:22
Speaker 1: Jerry Carita, Grace Fuse, and Jessie Katz. Our theme song
53:26
Speaker 1: is composed by Gramascope Music. Don't forget to rate, review,
53:31
Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Happy trails, and
53:35
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.