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Andy Stanley - From the Vault Challenging the Process · Andy Stanley Sermons

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Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go
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further faster. On today's podcast, we'll talk about how a leader should challenge
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the process. Landy. Over the years, I've heard you talk about this
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topic. You said, challenging the status quo is often where leadership begins.
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But where did that idea come from? Yeah? I love that statement,
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and it actually came from the very first leadership book that I ever read,
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which came out this is hard to say out loud, almost thirty years ago.
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Thirty years ago. Yeah, and the Leadership Challenge by I'm Kuz's Imposner.
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It's been out for you know, thirty years. It continues to be
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republished, and sometimes I wonder, do I love this book because it's the
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first leadership book I've ever read, I ever read, or is it really
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that good? And honestly, every year, in fact, more than one
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time a year, I will find myself when I'm doing research or I'm putting
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together leadership talk going back to that book. It is so incredibly worn out
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and every page is underlined. I think one of the reasons. One of
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the things that gives this book such punch. It's not an individual leader sharing
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their insights or even their story. It's two researchers that interviewed and did research
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with a whole lot of leaders, effective leaders, and so their conclusions are
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database not just insight based. And early in the book that introduced the importance
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of continually challenging the status quo and any organization. In fact, they argue
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that challenging the process or challenging the status quo, as they say, is
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actually the leaders mandate. Why a mandate. As all of our listeners know,
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progress is always it's always preceded by change. If things are going to
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get better around here, then something has to change, and change is always
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preceded by challenge. If something's going to change, somebody has to come along
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and say, hey, something needs to change, So there's challenge change.
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So consequently, it takes somebody challenging the status quo for real change to take
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place. And that is we're going to talk about in the next few minutes.
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It's not always comfortable, but it is absolutely necessary. So you said
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thirty years ago, that was about ten years before we started this organization.
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Yeah, and that was a problem, as you know, because you were
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there, I was at that time I was working for my dad in a
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very traditional church. A great church, but a traditional church. So you
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know, I read where leaders are supposed to challenge the status quo. So
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I thought, Okay, I'll just start challenging the status quo, and I
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seem to remember that not always going well. Actually it did not go well.
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I think the only reason I kept my job was because my dad was
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the pastor. And maybe that's the only reason you kept your job too,
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because you were my friend. So my failure in those early days was not
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because this isn't an important and true principle. It had everything to do with
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my inappropriate and not so well thought through approach to this. So what I
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did, instead of challenging the status quo of our entire enterprise, which was
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really none of my business, I decided to take this principle and apply it
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to my sphere of influence, which is really what everybody should do. So
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my sphere of influence at that point I oversaw our ministry to middle school and
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high school students, which was not a big part of what we were doing
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as an organization. But I thought, hey, this is my sphere of
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influence. I can begin challenging the process or challenging the status quo of student
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ministry in general, where I had, you know, the authority to do
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so, and you were there for that lane. You remember some of those
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days, and even though what we did was disruptive, I think what saved
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us was we were successful because when a leader comes along and challenges what is
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but also combines that with or harnesses that to a hey, here's what it
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could be and here's what it should be. And again, as we talk
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about so many so often on our podcast, that you know, leadership is
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about pointing people to a preferred future. If challenging the process is then harnessed
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to our link to a picture of a preferred future, people generally are willing
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to sit up straight and say, hey, you're right, this is what
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we've always done, it's not working anymore, or there's a better way.
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So consequently we experienced some success then. But let me reiterate again, simply
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taking this idea and charging into the whole organization was not very effective. As
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you said, I was. I was around for some of that, and
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I remember you started actually encouraging this principle. Yeah, with the leaders that
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reported to me in terms of volunteers and staff. I just began insisting on
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it, and I've tried to do that ever since. This is not comfortable.
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But here's the thing, Lane, and you know this, and you're
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the same way. There's something that I think we fear more than being wrong,
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and that is being irrelevant. So when a younger leader comes along,
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it begins to challenge the process that we established. And our organization is twenty
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years old, it is it does feel personal because you know, my fingerprints
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are all over everything we do, but there still is in the back of
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my mind. I never want to wake up one day in an organization that
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I helped create that's irrelevant, regardless of how good those ideas used to be.
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Because everything that's relevant, you know, has a shelf life. And
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we know that and we talk about that. But the only way sometimes to
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unearth those things that have become as refer to them sometimes old couches, is
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for somebody to come along and challenge the process, to kind of challenge the
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status quo. Landy, as you said twenty years ago, you know we
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were challenging the process. We were a young guy, Yeah we were.
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We remember that. And now we've got some amazing young leaders on the staff
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that are doing that to us. Yeah. And the reason I want to
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create a culture, and it's so important for leaders to create a listening culture,
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especially to next generation leaders, is because, as al Re says and
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his excellent book Focus, the next generation product will probably not come from the
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previous generation. The next generation product will not come from the previous generation.
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So we had some great ideas twenty years ago, and hopefully there are a
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few great ideas you know we still have still yeah, right, But the
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truth is, you know, the next generation in our context, the next
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generation church, the next generation approach to ministry, the next generation approach to
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dealing with issues and problems and challenges in our culture. It's probably not going
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to come from our generation. But I want to be in an organization that,
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again is open to that next generation challenging the status quo in such a
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way that it's both helpful and that we can then in turn get behind them
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instead of feeling like they're being a threat to us. And this is a
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this is a dance, you know, this is more art than science.
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But it has a lot to do with the kind of culture that we create,
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and it has a lot to do with our willingness to listen to a
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lot of bad ideas until we get to the good idea. Absolutely, because
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Lane, the truth is, we will either benefit from those ideas or we
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won't. And the only way to benefit from these new ideas the ideas again
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that you know, sometimes they don't strike us as exactly on point, but
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the only way to benefit from those ideas is to know what they are.
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And to know what they are, I've got to create an environment, or
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we've got to create an environment where those ideas bubble up easily, and to
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avoid creating an atmosphere where again, next generation leaders think, well, they
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just don't listen. This is just their way and they're always going to do
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it their way. And as much as I believe that we have that here,
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from time to time, when I get our three month and one year
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evaluations, or if I do a skip level meeting with someone and just dig
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in, I every once in a while while I run across, well,
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you know, I just don't feel like anybody's paying attention. And it's both
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heartbreaking and maddening, but it's just part of organizational culture, and it reiterates
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why we need to be so proactive when it comes to creating a culture where
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you know, we have predictable systems, but at the same time permission to
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challenge the status quo. Well to that point, Andy, I remember you
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reading a statement from the book that you said actually scared you as a leader,
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absolutely, and I know exactly what you're talking about. This. This
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is a statement that I go back to over and over and over. In
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fact, when I pull out old teaching outlines from leadership talks, this statement
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shows up just about everywhere, whether I quoted or not. And it really
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did. It was inspiring in the early days, and now it does scare
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me a bit. So here's what they write. They say, leaders must
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challenge the process precisely because any system will unconsciously conspire to maintain the status quo
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and prevent change. I want to that again. Leaders must challenge the process.
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In other words, this is the mandate. We must challenge the process.
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Why precisely because any system, even good systems, any system will unconsciously
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and again a system isn't even a living, breathing organism, but there's systems
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have power in an organizational life. Any system will unconsciously conspire to maintain the
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status quo. And then here's the kicker and prevent change. So again,
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if we're not careful, we wake up in an organization that is conspiring against
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us. Because every organization, whether it's industry based, product based, whatever
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it might be, every organization, the systems kind of basically determine job descriptions
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that determine what people do. And if we're not careful, the system in
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our case that we created conspires, that's a powerful word, conspires against us.
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And again, there are people listening today who feel like they have to
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go to work and work around the organization. They feel like the organization is
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in the way of them doing what they were hired to do. Well.
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That's because there are things that haven't been challenged in a while, and the
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status quo gets in the way. So an organization or the systems in an
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organization unconsciously, because again they're not living organisms, they're just the habits of
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an organization. They're the way an organization is established or even the physical layout
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of an organization, conspires to maintain the status quo and prevent change. Organizations
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do what organizations are organized to do. And if there is not periodic sort
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of whacking the hornet's nest of it. Things just don't change. In organizations
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resist change, and I think in our world, you know, in church
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world, Lane, we hear a lot from people who say, how do
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I get my church to change? How do I get my church to change?
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And I'm often quick to say, you know, it's not your church,
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it's the people. But at the same time, the structure of a
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church, just like the structure of any organization, conspires against change. Even
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again the facilities. Sometimes we find ourselves trying to do things here and the
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facility conspires against us. So this is this is deep in organizational life,
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and this is why I think the authors of this book were so right.
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This really is the leader's mandate. Andy is as we mentioned, organizations just
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a little over twenty years old and by most accounts, very successful. That
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has to make it that much harder to challenge the status quo. Absolutely,
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because I'm partially responsible for the status quo. I mean, I am the
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status quo here in our organization, and so are you. We're one of
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the biggest organizations in the world doing what we do, and yet it is
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more important than ever that we challenge the status quo. Like Andy Grove,
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a former CEO of Intel said, success breeds complacency, and complacency breeds failure.
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Success breeds complacency. We all know that, and complacency breeds failure.
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So round and round and round we go. So the worst thing that we
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could do is to allow our success to determine what we do tomorrow, because
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success breeds complacency. And that doesn't mean in the rhythm of organizational life we
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don't stop and breathe, that we don't stop and celebrate past accomplishments. It
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just means we can't allow our success to breed complacency. And again, the
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longer we are in this, the more tempting that will be, and the
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more important it is for us to create a culture where we are able to
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and willing to pay attention to the people who are challenging our status quo.
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A few months ago, when we talked about our staff behaviors, we have
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six staff behaviors we ask all of our staff to embrace. One of those
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is make it better. And make it better always challenges the status quo because
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to improve something, you have to change something. And whenever I talk about
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make it better, it's an opportunity to say when you see something in your
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silo. When you see something in your lane that needs to be made better,
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or if you have an idea about how somebody in another department, division,
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or even campus can make something better, it's your responsibility to speak up.
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And the hesitation to speak up is the hesitation to rock the boat or
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to challenge the status quo. So again, even within the context of our
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staff behavior language, we look for ways to encourage them and then when it
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happens, to reward it. Because there's some personalities who can't wait to do
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this, I would be one of those. There are certain personalities that will
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sit on a really, really good idea a long long time until they're invited
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to speak into the process. So again, the culture in the atmosphere of
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an organization is super important as it relates to bubbling up. As we said
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earlier, these good ideas, Yeah, I mean Andy, at the end
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of the day, none of us wants to be stuck. I mean,
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we don't want to be part of a stuck organization. Yeah. And I
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don't want to fix things once they break. I would rather abandon them before
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they break and move on to the next thing. But that's difficult, difficult
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to do because everybody's busy, and everybody's busy doing what they have been doing
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all along. Well, Andy, when you presented this to our staff,
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you know, you told us there was something you wanted us to know and
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then something you want us to do. I don't want to dig into those
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two things. First, what is it we should know? Yeah, this
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is something that we look for opportunities to talk about as often as possible.
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And the last time I did sort of a formal presentation to our staff about
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challenge the process, I said, the thing that I want everybody to know
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is that our mission and our vision is permanent. That what this organization is
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designed to do, that's pretty much permanent. But that our model or our
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approach and our case our programming is temporary. Our approach is temporary. So
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again, helping people understand what do we mess with and what do we not
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mess with. Now, that doesn't mean we should never ever sit down and
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reevaluate our mission and vision. Of course we should, but in terms of
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the day to day make it better. Challenge the process. The process that
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needs to be challenged most of the time is our approach to what we do.
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In our case, we call it our model. So mission you know,
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stays the same model how we approach it. It needs to be predictable
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for our customers or for the people who are involved. But there's nothing about
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our model that's sacred. I tell leaders all the time, and I've said
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it on our podcast. Marry the mission, date the model. Marry the
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mission, date the model. Fall in love with your vision, but just
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be infatuated with your approach. Hang on tightly to the mission, but stay
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open handed with a model, with the approach, with the style, because
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that's where we need to pilot new things, and that's where we need to
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experiment around the edges Andie, that's really where a lot of our conversation really
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goes to, is what's not working in the model. There's nothing about our
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model, our programming that's off limits to discussion. Now, because I'm a
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champion of it, and because we talk about it all the time publicly and
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again, what the marketplace in our case understands about us as an organization.
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They may think, hey, the model in programming is forever. It's not.
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We just want them to understand how we do it here. But behind
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the scenes, none of that is off limits to discussion. And if you
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sat in on one of our leadership team meetings, or if those of you
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in our podcast audience ever sat in on one of our leadership team meetings,
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you would know that we have very healthy discussions around all of these things because
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I'm surrounded by a bunch of people who want to do what works again,
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who want to make it better. Well, Andy, with that in mind,
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to know that we should marry the mission and date the model, you
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also ask us to do something. Yeah, in addition to knowing something,
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I did want all of our staff to do something in response to that.
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And this is something that all of you listening today can embrace within your own
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organization. I ask everybody on our staff to be a raving fan publicly and
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an honest critic privately. A raving fan publicly, an honest critic privately.
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For an organization to be strong and to be effective in the marketplace, you
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have to have both. And you can't have raving critics who represent the organization,
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and you can't have everybody within the organization to be a fan all the
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time, Otherwise you don't learn anything and you don't grow. So raving fans
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publicly honest critics privately, in other words, until we decide corporately or organizationally
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to change something. Be a fan, but behind the scenes, bring your
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insight to bear on what we are doing and again, how we can make
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it better. If we lose either one of those, I think the clock
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starts ticking backwards on the effectiveness of our organization. Yeah, Andy, I
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remember thinking that surprised some of our younger leaders. I think they come into
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organization with the notion of the way we do things is set in stone just
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as much as why we do what we do. And that's understandable because we
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love our product, you know, we love our brand, We love the
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way we do what we do. But this way won't always be the best
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way. And we know that. And honestly, because I've been here so
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long. You know, as I've said before, leader's IQ goes down the
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longer they're in an organization that the person that's been in an organization the longest
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is the least aware of the culture of the organization because we grow used to
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it, we grow blind to things that are right in front of us because
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we've been there for so long. It's the fresh eyes that bring oftentimes the
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best ideas, and the painters never smell the paint. Yeah, exactly.
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The painters never smell the paint. That's exactly right. And the thing is,
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I'm so entrenched, or really I'm too entrenched in how we do things
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sometimes to know when it's not working. So andy, you want people around
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you to feel empowered to challenge the pros. Yeah, The truth is every
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leader does. Every leader wants their organization to get better. Every leader wants
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the things around them to improve. I think leaders intuitively evaluate and critique everything.
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In fact, when we do our we do a conference every other year
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called the Drive Conference for leaders who love the local church. And I always
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say in our first session, Okay, you're leaders, so you're going to
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have you're gonna have two sets of notes. You're going to take notes on
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what we say, and you're going to take notes on what you observe about
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how we do things here, notes about the buildings. Because leaders are by
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nature critics. I mean, we're students and we're critics. And so if
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you're going to surround yourself with other leaders and young leaders, you have to
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assume they're the same way. And they're not going to always march and step
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and they're not going to always think our ideas are as fantastic as we think
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they are. And again, as we said earlier, we will either learn
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from their insight or we won't, and we're better off if we do.
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And you actually told our staff and I quote, deep in your heart you
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feel that if you were in charge, things around here would not only be
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different, they would be better. Yeah, that's exactly right. I In
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every organization I've worked in, I would say, you know, in the
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back row and think, wow, these people don't get it. And now
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I'm they right, And that's okay. That is the nature of leadership.
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That's not rebellion, that's not being loyal, that's you know, there's nothing
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bad about that, that just anz, but creating an environment where we can
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get the best of that, but at the same time help leaders mature to
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the place where they realized, you know, there has to be some stability,
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there has to be a predictability. We can't change all the time,
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but we better change some things some of the time. Well, as you
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said, this idea has been out there for at least thirty years, why
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don't we see more organizations employ it? Well, I think part of it
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is organizations that do this. You don't know that they're doing it because it's
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behind the scenes, and you know, when it comes to new product,
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sometimes it can take years for a new product to you know, break through.
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That's true with technology. It's certainly true in the drug industry. For
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the leader or for the leadership team that is not embracing this, I think
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sometimes we mistake a challenge to the process as a challenge to our leadership or
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a challenge to our authority. It's easy for leaders to take things personally,
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so they don't encourage it. This has to do with self awareness. This
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has to do with personal security, This has to do with leading open handedly,
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and I think for a lot of us, it has to do with
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just remembering what we were like in our late twenties and our thirties, when
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we thought all of our ideas were good ideas. If you forget that,
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then again, a challenge to the process or a challenge to the status quote
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it feels like a personal challenge. On the flip side, sometimes it's hard
19:37
for young leaders to imagine that everything that is in place was originally a good
19:42
idea. And this is when companies and organizations every once in a while need
19:48
to talk about the history of a company or an organization because smart people,
19:52
intuitive people, they just need to hear this every once in a while to
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remember, oh yeah, that thing that I hate that we're doing. That
19:57
was a breakthrough idea ten years ago. That was a breakthrough idea fifteen years
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ago. So let's appreciate the past. Remember that we are all standing on
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someone's shoulders. And I think within that context it helps leaders appropriately and sensitively
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and without making a personal challenge the status quo. One generation status quo is
20:19
just another generation's challenge to improve exactly and remembering. I think remembering that creates
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the context for moving forward. Yeah. Well, along those lines, you
20:29
gave our staff some really good advice regarding the tension this creates. You referred
20:33
to it as managing the fan critic challenge. Yeah. I suggested that they
20:37
develop the art, and it really is art. And again, every personality
20:41
is going to experience this or communicate this in a different way. But I
20:45
suggested to our staff that they developed the art of challenging the process without challenging
20:49
the authority of their leader. And this has to do with language, tone,
20:55
timing. So when an instruction is given, you follow through. Now
20:59
you debrief later. I mean, all of us who are parents have had
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endless conversations where we ask our kids to do something and they want to have
21:06
a discussion about why. So early on in my parenting, I would my
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kids, they would just they just knew where this was going. I would
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say, you know what, that's a good question, and I would like
21:14
to talk about why, but right now, I just need you to do
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it. So I don't want to shut down why, but I don't want
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to. I don't want to get off on a why question right now because
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we just need to do this. So when instruction is given, follow through
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now, debrief later, and never verbalize your frustration with a process or with
21:30
an instruction in front of other team members. That's just unhealthy and it's disrespectful,
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and again, unnecessary emotion gets woven into the conversation actually at that point,
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and again it's just not necessary. So when you know, when somebody
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asks you to do something, follow through now, debrief later, and just
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don't verbalize your and don't verbalize your frustration with, you know, with a
21:52
process in front of other team members. And this goes back to a broader
21:56
principle that public loyalty creates private influence. Public loyalty creates private influence. When
22:02
I see someone who is my fan publicly and who goes to bat for me
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or implement something the way we've asked them to and then comes back to me
22:11
after they've done a great job and said, Okay, you know, I
22:14
did what you asked me to do. I think it was marginally successful,
22:17
but I have some questions. Well, I'm going to listen to their questions
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as opposed to the person that I feel like every conversation becomes an argument,
22:23
and every conversation is trying to you know, push a rock up the hill.
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They just lose influence over time because again we're busy and we just get
22:32
worn out. Well, Andy, as we wrap up the podcast, any
22:34
final thoughts, Yeah, as we wrap up, I would just say to
22:37
all of our leaders who were just a little bit put off or maybe frightened,
22:41
or maybe feel a little bit insecure about, you know, inviting this
22:44
kind of feedback or being more open to the people who challenge the process.
22:47
If the leaders in our organization have permission to challenge the process, everybody wins.
22:51
They win, we win, they feel heard. We're able to tease
22:55
out the good ideas and even make a mediocre idea a great idea. The
22:57
organization remains real event more profitable. Will create an environment that attracts leaders because
23:03
leaders want to be listened to. Very few leaders feel like they have to
23:07
be the point leader. But leaders want to feel like they're influencing their own
23:11
destiny and their own future. And listening and celebrating the fact that they're not
23:15
content with the way things are or where things are. It just keeps them
23:18
engaged. Nothing goes underground. So I really do think Posner and kus As
23:22
We're exactly right. This is not a nice to have, This is not
23:25
an add on. This really is the leader's mandate to challenge the process so
23:30
that our organizations don't end up conspiring against us. Well, Andy, thanks
23:33
so much for today, and to all our listeners, we want to thank
23:36
you for joining us. To hear more from Andy on leadership, visit Andy
23:40
Stanley dot com.