Latest / Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast / ENCORE: Unmasking the Truth: The Science Behind qPCR Stool Testing with Dr Tom Fabian

Transcript

ENCORE: Unmasking the Truth: The Science Behind qPCR Stool Testing with Dr Tom Fabian · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: This is Wellness by Design.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Amy Skillton, and joining us today is Dr.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Tom Fabian, an educator and medical consultant who I'm so excited to speak to.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Fabian is a leading expert on the role of the microbiome in health, immune function, chronic disease and ageing.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: As a translational scientist, his primary focus is on the clinical application of microbiome research in the integrative and functional medicine space.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: He received his PhD in molecular biology from the University of Colorado Boulder and has worked as a biomedical researcher in the biotechnology industry and more recently as a consultant in the microbiome testing field.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Currently, Dr.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Fabian serves as a consultant and science advisor with Diagnostic Solutions Laboratory, and he is also a science advisory board member with Designs for Health.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: In addition, he is certified as a nutrition therapy practitioner by the Nutrition Therapy Institute.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: And today we're going to be talking all about microbiome testing.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: I can't wait to pick your brains, Tom, and welcome to the Designs for Health podcast.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much, Amy.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be here today.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to the conversation.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Me too.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: There is so much I want to ask.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I know as a clinician who works in this space and all of those that are listening, I feel like microbiome testing is still a landscape and territory that people are exploring with excitement, but also it feels a bit like uncharted territory at times.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really gaining knowledge and confidence in this area is an ever-emerging space because there is so much to know.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, there's far too much to know that we could ever cover in a single podcast.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: But what I want to talk with you today about is some of those areas that I think practitioners get a bit tripped up on.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: And perhaps because this isn't something that was in the naturopathic curriculum at the time when we trained, it's really one of those postgraduate areas that we're all, I guess, catching up in.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I suppose where I'd like to start is looking at the various methodologies that can be applied when it comes to assessing what's going on in the microbiome and what the key differences are.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Can you start there for us?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we do get a lot of questions about that as well.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it turns out, you know, when practitioners are considering what sort of methods, what sort of tests may be best for assessing the microbiome and gut health, we know that there are several options out there, of course.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think one of the starting points for practitioners to be aware of is it's really about comparing apples and oranges.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're not always comparing apples to apples.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not sort of, there's a lot of questions about uh you'll see these in social media.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Which gut tests, which microbiome tests do you like the best, which do you think is the best for clinical practice?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so it is important to understand that they're really apples to oranges comparisons.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to look at what are those differences among the tests, and there's quite a few.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it boils down to methodology.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to the methodology, really the two sort of main current methods that are out there, these are both DNA-based methods.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is referred to as metagenomic sequencing, one of them is referred to as PCR, in particular something called quantitative PCR.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll start with metagenomic sequencing.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a method that's commonly used currently in research.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the research scientists who are studying the microbiome like to use metagenomic sequencing because they can get this big picture view of the microbiome.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: For studying the community, there's a lot of research questions they can answer with that.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Also, there's a there's a lot of data, so it's certainly a big deal to try to figure out how to analyze all that data.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes it's sort of in the context, for example, of understanding what patterns of microbes may be related to a given disease or given environmental change or even dietary factors.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when you really look at that pipeline, so research, I think we all know when it comes to the point of research, often is for clinical applications.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the idea of basic research and sort of that preclinical research, and then there's clinical research for the development of diagnostic type tests.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really one of the big differences is metagenomic sequencing was really developed for research purposes because there's a lot of data to deal with.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the microbes that come up on metagenomic sequencing, you'll see these lists of hundreds of microbes in the microbiome.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know what most of them do.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: They haven't really been well studied.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really important when it comes to clinical interpretation.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: When you're looking at microbes that can inform clinical decisions, you want to know something about those microbes.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: You want to know what they're linked to, you want to know something about what you can do about them, what sorts of things are doing in the gut.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So oftentimes with that metagenomic sequencing and research, the ultimate goal is to identify a small subset that can be used in a clinical type test.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And those clinical tests will often use PCR.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really more of a diagnostic type test when you're talking about PCR.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that was something that I think became better known during the COVID epidemic, a pandemic, where suddenly a lot of clinicians became much more informed about testing and the types of testing for COVID.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: The gold standard for detecting these types of pathogens is quantitative PCR.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really one of the main differences there.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, you're casting a wide net with metagenomic sequencing.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can look at things like diversity and sort of all the different microbes that are there up to a point.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: One of the other advantages, though, of quantitative PCR, other than it allows you to focus in on the microbes that are most clinically relevant based on the research, often using metagenomic sequencing, is there's really kind of a long list of advantages, but one of them is rapid turnaround time.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So metagenomic sequencing often there's several weeks before you can get the results, and oftentimes you want those results quicker to be able to make decisions for patients.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: The other things come down to really a lot of it has to do with specificity and sensitivity.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to specificity, metagenomic sequencing is really good at identifying uh kind of the big picture, but when it comes down to specifics, specific pathogens, for example, specific opportunists, um, it's not always as good at doing that for several reasons.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: One is a lot of these important microbes that we think of as pathogens and opportunists are low abundance, so there they can be present at amounts in the microbiome that are far lower than the typical commensal microbes, and yet they can still cause a lot of problems, even though they may be present at a million times lower in concentration because they can do kind of a lot of damage in the gut.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's where QPCR shines.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was specifically developed to be able to zero in on these particular pathogens and opportunists and other important microbes.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you can kind of identify those meat needles in the haystack.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how you can really think of this quantitative PCR.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're not really looking at the whole haystack, you're trying to identify really precisely and quantitatively these needles in the haystack.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'll kind of turn it back to you because there's a lot of subtopics we can talk to or talk about here in terms of the differences, but it a lot of it has to do with clinical and diagnostic versus more sort of research focused, um, and then also the specifics of really carefully quantitating and identifying the microbes that you're looking for.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um we can certainly get into some of the details about methodology and sort of why there are these differences, um, but that's kind of a little bit of the high level uh terms of differences.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you for clarifying that.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think, you know, there are so many different ways to approach any problem or assess data, and there's always limitations and pros and cons.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I suppose if I was to summarize what you just shared, then is that you know, metagenomic sequencing provides just a huge volume of data.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: But at this stage, based on what we know as far as clinical application of that data goes, it's quite a small fraction of that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: And thereby quantitative PCR testing is allowing us to cut straight to the chase for the things that we need in a much quicker time frame, but also focusing on those things that are clinically relevant based on the scientific literature that we have today.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I suppose that really, and you can correct me if there's more to this, but answers the question around which method is most accurate.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure it's a little bit more nuanced than what I just said, but it's not that either method is inaccurate, but there is a difference in application and the way that we pull that information together and why.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: And if we're considering what's more relevant to clinicians at this stage, I can see how PCR testing is going to give us the you know the quickest access to the data that's most clinically relevant.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of microbiome functions, whether it's LPS production or something else, is there anything further we need to understand either around the accuracy of the testing or which methods are more important to understand the functional aspects of what's going on?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there's different ways you can look at that, and that's actually one of the uh sort of um points that often the metagenomic sequencing type companies tend to promote is that they can look at a range of different functions.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Technically, you can do the same thing with PCR as long as you target those functions.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can look at, you can do it at the species level and look at specific butyrate-producing bacteria or LPS producing bacteria.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think the key there is there are different ways of looking at functions.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can group microbes by their functionality.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Again, you can look at butyrate producing bacteria, LPS producing bacteria.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, though, you want to know a lot more about that context.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So context is important.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're just saying doing a metagenomic sequencing test and they're giving you sort of a score for LPS production, that doesn't really tell you some of the information you'd want to know.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: That can still be useful, but you want to know who's producing that.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because, for example, LPS can be produced by microbes that are commensals.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: E.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: coli is one of the sort of best-known commensals that produces LPS.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Commensal E.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: coli is actually generally harmless.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: It can be overgrown in certain scenarios, but uh it's not the same thing as detecting, say, salmonella.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Salmonella is closely related, it also produces this inflammatory type LPS.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's very similar to E.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: coli, but you want to know is it Salmonella or is it E.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: coli?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And again, with QPCR, you can be much more confident because salmonella is present usually at low levels.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: QPCR is able to detect down to 10 to 100 cells per gram of stool.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's out of, on average, about 100 billion microbes per gram of stool.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's again, it's really the needle in the haystack.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sequencing is not able generally, the type of sequencing that's that's done commercially, um, sort of these uh direct-to-consumer type tests, do what's called shallow sequencing.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you're basically only able to look at the more abundant microbes.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So important pathogens like salmonella would not generally be detected as reliably or not detected at all.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, when it comes to functions, you can look at functions either way.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can look at it based on groupings, based on genes.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, ultimately, though, you want to know who is involved in that function and what is the context.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's such an important point, and I suppose that really establishes why quantitative PCR is so important in terms of specificity as well as the actual quantity, because lipopolysaccharides, yes, they can generate inflammatory responses in the gut wall, and of course, systemically from there, but knowing that they're present doesn't give you much direction around what needs to be done about it, because the distinction between commensals that might be producing them versus pathogens is a big one.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: And also the volume of that, you know, are they present?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, but in what quantity and is this a quantity we need to do something about?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I think from a clinical perspective, that really can guide a practitioner really directly in terms of what needs to be done, if anything needs to be done.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: But I guess one of the other challenges then that can come up with quantitative PCR is because it is so sensitive, we also can get a report that highlights low-level pathogens that might otherwise be missed.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I would love to hear from you about the clinical significance of these kinds of results that come through.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: We get that question quite a bit as well.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: As you can imagine, because of the sensitivity, um, we do pick up low levels of opportunists and pathogens, it often raises questions.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that, of course, a lot of that has to do with just knowing how to interpret the test properly.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So education is a big piece part of that solution.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when you're looking at the presence of, say, a pathogen, um, so there are differences in terms of levels, of course, quantitative levels, and that's really again where PCR shines.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: You do want to know is this just sort of a very small amount?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: You might have just had a minor exposure, and then the patient isn't necessarily symptomatic.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So symptoms are obviously very important to assess in terms of their relevance.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, once again, it does come down to context.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when it comes to pathogens, we know that their presence sometimes can be indicative of some of those protective factors being less robust than they should be.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, even though they may not be developing the clinical signs and symptoms of a full-blown infection, and so therefore may not necessarily need to be treated for that pathogen.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: We still know that if it's present, for example, stomach acid might be insufficient, or the protective conventional microbiome might be insufficient.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's still kind of a clue for us to look for these other imbalances and ask the question well, why is this pathogen there in the first place?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's one of the reasons why they're so reported, even though they may not always be at a level that's causing symptoms.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's a concept that really kind of gets misinterpreted.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of misconceptions around there.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: You go here, practitioners refer to this term false positives.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of that sort of misunderstanding comes around this idea that oh, I see salmonella or I see uh C difficile on the test.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: My patient doesn't have those symptoms at all.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does that mean?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a false positive?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in most cases, of course, the vast majority of cases, that's not the case.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: PCR, again, is considered very specific, very sensitive.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: It can pick these up.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it does mean in most cases that it's there, but it's likely to be an asymptomatic infection.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's an area that's becoming better studied now that we have these more sensitive techniques like PCR, quantitative PCR.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that many of these pathogens we can get exposed to, and some individuals may go on to develop an infection if they their immune system is compromised, if they don't have a good amount of commensals, etc.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, once again, there's these individual differences, um, and it's good to be aware of those differences and that that influences how you interpret the results there.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we even see a few cases where patients might have might have higher levels of pathogens, and yet they're still asymptomatic.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that would suggest, and oftentimes in those cases, we'll see that you know their commensal microbes are actually at a really good level.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, presumably, and based on the research, they're able to, their microbiome is able to basically kind of keep those pathogens in check, which is one of their important roles in the gut.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing that because I think you know, as we develop more sensitive testing across the board in in medicine, and we also learn more and more about the interface between the innate and the adaptive immune system, we're really seeing the meeting of our innate immune system's ability to protect against infection.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And when it comes to you know, pathogens, for example, it's not a binary situation where you either have an infection or you don't, meaning there's an absence of those microbes.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's that we have a whole ecosystem that works together.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, using an example with skin, you can pick up staph on, you know, let's say a sample of 100, but only maybe 20% have an actual staph infection because their hydrolipid film, their antimicrobial peptides that are produced at the skin, and their commensal skin flora are staying on top of the other things that could otherwise become pathogenic in the event the immune system goes down.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when we're looking at the gut, the the sheer volume of what comes through there in terms of antigenic material, we've got secretary IgA, which is part of the mucosal glycocalyx, plus the commensals, you know, and those other things like stomach acid production, bile acid production.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: So what we're really seeing with these really sensitive tests is we're all of a sudden lifted the lid on, you know, what else is in there on a more, you know, a smaller scale.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is an infection or even that there's necessarily been a past infection, or maybe you know, it could be, but what we're really identifying is or we're really witnessing is you know the innate immune system at work and managing the presence of those things.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, is that clinically relevant or is it not?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's going to depend on the case history, you know, so many other factors.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of you know that coming up, probably the question that I've seen come up the most is around Halicobacter pullori.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's because you know it's one of those pathogens that can cause pretty serious symptoms when there is an infection present.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: If an infection is present, usually treatment is pretty rough and has some collateral damage around you know the gastrointestinal system.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a question on some practitioners' minds are like when when it pops up on a PCR, you know, in this case with the GI map, where do you make the distinction around what needs to be done?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Is it you know is it a collation of symptoms, history?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: Are there any other variables we have to take into consideration in addition to those?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you definitely hit the nail on the head that context as always is really important.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it does come down to clinical judgment but also we we provide the additional information for a reason.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So of course the quantitative amount of H.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: pylori does make a difference but keep in mind that these are not sort of as you you kind of alluded to the cutoff set you know it's either positive or negative in some of the older tests.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you meet some magical threshold level and suddenly it's a problem.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So for some individuals just below that threshold could still be a problem.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: For other individuals who have a healthier gut they can probably tolerate higher levels and it's really not as much of a problem for them.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's still a good guide overall.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean you want to know overall especially if you're treating or you you're doing something with the gut and you're comparing it before and after if you see that it's down say tenfold then that means it might still be present because a lot of people still have low level H.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: pylori that may not be a problem but that tells you that your protocol is certainly going in the right direction.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: There is a course of correlation with symptoms so you you alluded to these more serious symptoms that gets into sort of more of the um conventional medical sort of view of H.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: pylori as a cause of ulcers and can even cause stomach cancer.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly very serious outcomes for some individuals.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: The virulence factors certainly play a key role there.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: They're considered risk factors.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So like any risk factor if something's present that could be potentially serious it does not necessarily mean you're going to get that condition.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a piece of information for the clinician that says you might want to weigh this a little bit more.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you're kind of on the fence about should I use antibiotics, should I just treat with an herbal protocol or even not treat there's not a lot of symptoms presence of virulence factors can basically weigh in on that decision.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's also in our field functional integrative medicine, of course we look at things in a different way beyond just kind of the conventional medicine scenario where okay so the patient doesn't have ulcers doesn't necessarily have a family history risk for cancer is there a problem here with this H.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: pylori if it's still high we do know that H.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: pylori for example can affect stomach acid and that may not be something that in the conventional medicine field they're too concerned about.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly in our field we know that optimizing digestion certainly can be one of the goals when you're working with patients.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: So some practitioners may decide to treat usually typically more with herbal treatments in those scenarios where you might be more concerned about some of these less serious scenarios but scenarios that might still be affecting patient health like hypochlydria.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah thank you for pointing that out because I think this is where applied functional medicine is where it you know really steps into the into the fore and when we sort of zoom out and look at germ theory versus terrain theory and how those two meet when it comes to assessing patients for someone who has low level stress, who's asymptomatic who appears to be producing you know doesn't have any digestive issues whatsoever that doesn't mean it's necessarily something we need to treat but if another patient had the exact same test result but we can see their ALP is low, which means their zinc's down which means their stomach acid isn't optimal you know their their protein and creatinine scores are down we're seeing signs of malabsorption or elevated muscle turnover and any of those secondary signs that are indicative either you know catabolism issues, stress issues, adrenal you know, poor sleep, maybe coinfections of other sorts that are obvious then to me that would say the weight of like the the pathogenic information is this person's overall system innate immune system isn't particularly strong.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: They've already become weakened in other areas and therefore this potential pathogen is more of a threat than it is for someone whose terrain is very strong.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly yeah and I actually wanted to expand upon that just a little bit in terms of the terrain I think that's a great term overall in the research there's just sort of this growing focus not just on the microbiome in the early years that was the focus using metagenomic sequencing in other ways to kind of characterize the microbes that are there and then they would see there are these differences in different diseases and conditions and then of course eventually the question is why is that the case?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So looking at the gut environment is really important.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just a one-way effect where the microbiome affects gut physiology certainly it does but the physiology in turn affects the microbiome and so that's another key piece of the puzzle that you really want to have in a clinical test when you're looking at gut health and the microbiome to the to the point where I think it was just three or four years ago in the research community they actually redefined the term microbiome to not just include the microbes themselves which is referred to as the microbiota but to also include gut physiology the environment that that's equally important because the two are sort of integral so you mentioned the the immune system we certainly know that inflammatory microbes pathogens LPS producing microbes can influence inflammation but in turn one of the reasons they do that is inflammation actually creates a favorable environment for those pathogens and opportunists and it's also detrimental to the commensals so it's sort of like they're kind of tipping the balance in their favor by promoting inflammation sometimes you can have inflammation of course starting for other reasons.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: We even know that actually antibiotics under certain circumstances can start that process of low grade inflammation gut infections poor diet stress to some extent so if you're looking for these root causes what might be influencing microbes and why you have these imbalances it's really essential to have access to that information on digestion immune function intestinal barrier health etc that's that's incredibly important for interpretation.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes it's it's a as as you say context is everything and you can't just look at the microbiota out of context with all of the other elements of the physiology that make up a good gut and again zooming out the the elements of physiology in a human that sets up gut health for better or for worse.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's one of the challenges of applied functional medicine is you have to take into consideration all of those moving parts and how they fit together.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: And ultimately I think this brings us back to that naturopathic principle of really treating the the human in front of you and not just the data that you're looking at.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: You have to find a match in terms of appropriate treatment response.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: But because we are now in a day and age of more data and I think it's very sexy and very exciting and very interesting I think another thing that is challenging that I'd love to explore a little more with you is the impact of live organisms versus dead organisms and also what's being picked up as far as genetic material in quantitative PCR or metagenomic sequencing.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you know I think when I think about this from a clinical point of view I understand that even dead microbes their DNA and their pathogen associated molecular patterns or PAMPS or DAMPs can still trigger toll like receptor activity but again in the context of the physiology you know where is the weight sitting in terms of disease versus you know something that we don't have to worry about so much.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I think now that we have access to these more sensitive tests in a clinical setting they've they've left the research you know academic labs and and arrived in our clinics when we look at these DNA methods where is the line in terms of what it's picking up of organisms alive versus dead and how what does that mean clinically in terms of infection indications?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's really an interesting topic we got this question pretty frequently when I first started with diagnostic solutions a while back because there's this idea that just as you mentioned DNA can be released by dead microbial cells and do these methods detect that and is that still clinically relevant to detect dead microbes so one of the the overall considerations is once again you have to look at the context.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the short answer is yes DNA methods whether it's sequencing or PCR can pick up DNA as long as it's still intact right so you need a sufficiently intact amount of DNA if it's all kind of degraded and the pieces are too small then neither of those methods are going to work to reflect that.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you'd have to have fairly intact DNA present.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's really one of the keys is is there intact DNA present some estimates suggest that in when you're sampling stool with DNA methods again either sequencing or PCR somewhere in the range of 20 to 30 percent is from microbes that are basically no longer intact.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: The question is though is that from past infections or is that just because microbes died an hour before right because microbes have this very rapid lifestyle and that's likely still relevant if it's just they die just a few minutes or a few hours before but mostly what you want to think of because we hear this all the time I think people have this concept that we're thinking more kind of confusing the concept with antibodies antibodies that are detected in your blood or your serum to pathogens those can reflect past infections and that's kind of the definition of you know kind of a principle for how vaccines work etc but ultimately when you're thinking of the gut the material in the gut of course is passing through the vast majority of even microbes we lose a pretty large percentage of microbes every day just through your normal bowel habits.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And of course that's kind of continually moving through the GI tract and an average transit time I know it varies quite a bit between people have fast or slow transit but the rough average is somewhere around 28 hours.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: So at the very least you're you're for the most part you're not going to be picking up any microbes that are weeks or months old because they've already been flushed out of the system.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's this idea that well maybe they're hanging out in biofilms if they're actually in biofilms almost by definition they're still active right because they have to be able to form the biofilm they have to be able to still kind of be in the biofilm and stay alive because they're kind of just protecting themselves temporarily so I don't want to get kind of too in the weeds here but it's important to think of microbes in the gut as live dormant and dead so dormant's kind of a category we don't hear too much about but a lot of the microbes actually are thought to be present in dormant or semi-dormant states because they're only going to grow when their particular food is available.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And of course generally we're not eating 24-7 right so we're gonna have a period of fasting where the microbes don't have access to their favorite food sources for example the ones that thrive on mucus they're probably going to be a little bit more steady.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: But the question is is you know once again comes down to clinical relevance.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So for example when you compare DNA methods to you may have heard the term metatranscriptome these are expression based type tests those are only going to detect microbes that are essentially active at the time that the microbes were sampled because you have to be active in a live cell to be able to express your genes.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas DNA again could be around for a while at least a few hours or so.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: But the idea there though is that you can detect with DNA methods microbes that may be dormant in stool but were clinically relevant when they were in the small intestine or in the stomach.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's essentially the principle for example behind detection of H.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: pylori so without getting into much detail we know that generally H.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: pylori present in stool is dormant it's present in a different sort of form of cell that's still alive but not active like it would be in the stomach because once it's out of the stomach that's just not its favorite environment anymore but it can stay alive.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So long story short is a lot of these clinically relevant microbes like H.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: pylori, giardia we know giardia causes problems in the small intestine and yet we pick it up in stool.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were just to go with one of these metatranscribomic tests chances are you wouldn't see those at all because they're no longer really very active with DNA you can pick them up coming from these higher places higher up in the GI tract.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's it's important to kind of distinguish that temporally where you know something coming from the stomach like H.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: pylori that again takes several hours to get down into the stool but it's not from a past infection that's once you know in the past.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of a lot of information there but it's not as simple of a topic as as you might initially think.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's important I think to have have some of that context around it.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think so and I think that is something we really need to be aware of as clinicians is the limitations and the context for pathology testing and that is you know in the case of metatranscriptomic testing you know if you are if you're actually taking a sample directly from the stomach or a sample directly from the small intestine and you're looking for microbes that are actually active in those areas then it becomes more clinically relevant.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: But if what you're doing is sampling the stool that has been through an entire life cycle of you know roughly 28 hours or whatever it is and has gone through pH changes and undergone various different mechanisms of digestion you have to view the data that you're getting in the context of that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: And again it's not this binary conversation that you either have an infection or you don't or the microbes are active or they're dead.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: You have this dormant state when they are not in the environment in which they actually come alive.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: There's also in terms of the volume there's a there's a threshold after which quorum sensing switches on and pathogens can actually become pathogenic as opposed to just the little guys that are kind of hanging out not really bothering anybody and I think yeah whenever we're looking at this data we've got to look at it in the context of all of those those aspects.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for sharing that because I I do think there is you know some people might view dead DNA first of all not to have any effect on the immune system which of course it can but it also doesn't mean that it's an old infection or is irrelevant to the situation because you know the the bulk of the stool is microbes and it's being sheared off the gut wall you know within the last 28 hours or so, give or take, which means it's still you know contextually relevant to today or the last few weeks not something that happened years ago that's still kind of kicking around.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think the only exception to that might be where someone has done a stool test post you know massive bowel, you know, and gastrointestinal protocol that's included shearing off you know plaques and old material that maybe has has you know collected there.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: But typically when clinicians are running a GI map it's after an initial presentation and typically before a protocol it's being used to guide a protocol.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: So you know in the way in which it's administered typically that information can be considered current rather than a reflection of something old that's been sitting around in the gut.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what that leads me to then is the next question around how it can be used to diagnose things and you've given us a really good explanation around how to filter the information that we're given regarding Helicobacter pylori.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: But I know that SIBO is another big thing that comes up and from a clinical point of view where do you see the GI map informing what we know about SIBO?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Actually just before we dive into that though because to me that's a very interesting question we get that one probably it's in our top three four questions we get um one of the things I wanted to add a little bit though about the DNA thing because it is fairly nuanced is there's this idea of biofilms or plaques in the gut certainly you know plaques biofilms they might sort of be kind of the same concept but it's actually known that biofilm is dynamic right so biofilm itself is constantly remodeled by the organism so even you might think kind of biofilm is this thing that's just sitting there and there might be certain organisms that are maintaining that biofilm.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were to basically detect that in stool or sample it directly over time you still see those same microbes but they're they're sort of dividing and changing over time the biofilm's changing and they're attached typically to the mucus or the underlying epithelium that's constantly turning over.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: So what's what we think of and seems to be kind of this constant thing oh you have biofilm it's been there for you know Quite a while, it actually is very dynamic.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to kind of make that point that um once again, what we're looking at in stool is still not really reflecting the past very far back because even biofilms are constantly changing.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a good point.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's something I think that's just come out of research in the last few years and takes things a while to kind of filter down, but um I could we could probably have a whole podcast just on that whole topic biofilms.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um as far as this question we get a lot, um, can you use stool testing in a particular GM app to quote diagnose SIBO or even to get uh some clues?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Does the patient maybe have SIBO?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so in terms of certainly diagnostic, there are definitions out there for how to diagnose SIBO based on either taking a sample directly from the small intestine and then using culture and then count essentially counting the colonies on the culture to get a colony forming unit unit or CFU count.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there are definitions there.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um the most common, of course, is breath testing.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: So breath testing is certainly different from stool testing, and that's considered the accepted way, or at least the most common way to assess SIBO.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: But keep in mind though the definition there is based on gases when it comes to the breath testing.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's based on microbes that produce gas.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: When you look at GM map, and we just talked about that we can get detect DNA from microbes that are coming from higher up in the GI tract, so it's giving us clinical insights into some of these key microbes that we know from research live or cause problems in different parts of the GI tract.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's certainly true for the small intestine.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about Giardia, Giardia is well known to primarily infect the small intestine, cryptocepridium as well.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And a number of the opportunistic microbes tend to overgrow in the small intestine.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now they're not necessarily synonymous with, quote, SIBO.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Again, because SIBO is based on gas-producing microbes.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: We know that most of those opportunists on GMAP either don't produce those types of gases, they're not hydrogen producers, they're not hydrogen sulfide producers, methane producers, or they don't produce sufficient amounts because they're present at really low levels.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we know they're clinically significant.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the the short answer to this question is no, it's not technically SIBO, but you're looking at it the small intestine potentially in a different way.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: We would call that potential small intestinal dysbiosis.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on the microbes and sort of what's known about them for research and where they live.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Pseudomonas is another classic example.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Research shows in multiple studies that that's largely a resident of the stomach and small intestine, not really a resident of the lower GI tract.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: We know from research that that's linked to everything from IBS to food sensitivities.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're getting a lot of insights, and then on top of those microbes, we're also getting insights into digestion, which of course takes place in the small intestine.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're getting some insights into food reactions based on the anticholeidin marker and also theosinophil protein X, which is the eosinophil activation protein.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Those tend to be, those immune responses to foods tend to happen primarily in the small intestine.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we're getting some additional insights that is very different from what you would get from a breath test.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: When you're looking at testing, um there are cases where a patient might have some issues in the small intestine, but it's not SIBO.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we can see things on GM mapped frequently that could still indicate problems in the small intestine, but it's just not technically SIBO.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, in terms of when we're looking at that information that comes through, we're getting a much broader range of information that tells us what's happening in the small intestine or potentially, and certainly we can see patterns that could indicate SIBO by its classic definition, and also other indications of dysbiosis in the small intestine that aren't SIBO in the air quotes.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I suppose clinically speaking, it would allow us to perhaps see okay, there's a lot of other activity going on in the small intestine that could actually be contributing to these symptoms, SIBO-type symptoms, or actually there's some red flags here that this might actually be SIBO in its purest definition, and therefore the next step would be to look at breath testing to confirm that that's the case.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: Is that how you would approach it?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's also just different scenarios.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we often will get cases where patients had kind of gone down the SIBO path, they had symptoms that the practitioner kind of assumed were SIBO, they went and did breath testing and confirmed from that cutoff that they had SIBO treated, and either the SIBO symptoms came back or they never really responded that well in the first place.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: So then often they'll follow up with a test like GMAP to see well what else might be going on.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of things that can go on.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: I would say one of the most common things we see is high H.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: pylori.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: So of course SIBO doesn't really take into account potential H.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: pylori.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: We see candida is pretty common in those scenarios.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you're getting a lot of these other pieces of information that can lead to symptoms that seem like they might be SIBO.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about some of those symptoms like bloating, bloating is such a common symptom.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Most infections, parasite infections, candida, etc., can also cause bloating.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you really want to, a lot of people will start with something like GMAP to get kind of that broader picture and get a differential diagnosis sort of take on things.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: One of the other things that should be mentioned is you may be aware there's some critiques about breath testing.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly there has been some reviews by prominent IBS researchers about breath testing and some of the drawbacks.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is the potential for false positives due to rapid transit of the sugars that are used in testing to the colon.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you get this early peak, but it's actually not taking place in the small intestine for some people.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: If they have rapid transit, then that can be basically the early peak is happening in the colon.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of research on the gas producers in the colon, and those are on GMAP.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to know about the hydrogen producers that are in the colon, so again, that could be one of the reasons why some patients that were thought to have SIBO go down that path of treating SIBO, maybe didn't get the response that you were looking for.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: In some cases, it might just be that that actually was happening in the colon.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we can get great insights into methane producers in the colon, gas hydrogen producers in the colon, and then hydrogen sulfide producers as well.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's so helpful to know.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: I can see how it would be so useful to do a GI map first and then perhaps you know add in those additional tests.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: But I think conversely, for clinicians who've gone, oh, this is absolutely SIBO, and then they run a breath test and they then that doesn't come up, then where to from there?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's where the GI map can fill in all the rest of those gaps because it's such a broad range of information that you get, and not just on the microbial side, but also the immune function and some of the terrain in terms of secretory IgA as well.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess the short answer is it can't be used to diagnose SIBO per se, but it can absolutely give us some wonderful insights into the small intestine, including microbial patterns that could point to SIBO and would justify ordering a SIBO test, and also can save us from ordering a SIBO test unnecessarily when we can see other microbes that are actually contributing to that bloating and those SIBO-type presenting symptoms, which I think is just so helpful, especially when we again zoom out and consider how are we treating the whole patient?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we always have to think of whether or not they have SIBO or dysbiosis of some other type.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: How did they get there?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: Is it, you know, an innate immune system issue?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: Does that stem back to chronic stress, which reduces blood flow to the gut, which then set this up in the first place?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: Was it, you know, a course or multiple courses of antibiotics, you know, whatever the case may be, you know, is the secretory IgA still down?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you can you can treat antimicrobially all you want, but if you don't bring that back up, you'll just see relapsing infections.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it does, I think, give us a much broader ability to approach things when we can see all of the pieces on the table.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I would add to that list, probably at the top would be digestion.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it's of course, GMAP doesn't have there, there really aren't any gut tests that have direct indicators of stomach acid.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: You have to kind of triage that and sort of get a picture together to see, of course, based on symptoms as well.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: The GMAP, we know we talked about H.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: pylori is a potential cause of low stomach acid.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are low stomach acid-related patterns, very well known and defined in the research, including high levels of Streptococcus, also high levels of uh staphylococcus, enterococcus, those types of overgrowth microbes that are in that section on opportunists, those are fairly closely related to reduced digestion.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be a sign that maybe you want to look at digestion.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: But then, of course, we have a last dayase, which is a direct marker for pancreatic enzyme production.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that's one of the most commonly deficient markers in patients that have gone down this SIBO path.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we get this repopulation of patients in our consults that have been down that SIBO path and you're looking at GM app.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, the top ones tend to be H.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: pylori, pseudomonas, staphylococcus, evidence of food reactions, and then poor digestion.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just to your point, why not start there and look at those?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because these are all different factors for many patients that kind of covers the bases and that can explain why they have those symptoms.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they may not need to go down the placebo route.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you can start with improving digestion and allow the innate immune system just to get back on top of what's going on microbially.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, sometimes going back to those basics we overlook in the name of fancy testing and fancy protocols.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: And certainly one of the things that I find myself saying a lot in practice is there are no teeth in the stomach.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: If we're going to take it to the bare basics, you know, people often don't chew their food properly.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: They're often eating standing up or running out the door or while they're driving, you know, 100 miles an hour on the freeway.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: And there are just so many things that we're doing that put extra pressure on our digestive system that need to be addressed, you know, before we dive into a fancy protocol.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: But certainly picking up those things like elastase as to how well our organs are currently doing their job is so powerful because then it also I fear I find, you know, it's understandable that people are very data-driven.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think telling a patient you need to do X, Y, and Z, they can be a bit uh non-committal sometimes, or perhaps not consider some of those basic pieces of advice to be of particular importance.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: But when you can actually point to a marker, sort of say, this is what that means, it gives them a reason to be doing what you're sharing with them, also.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: And you've mentioned some really interesting markers already.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to just to circle back to the eosinophil activation protein, because I think this is a this is one of particular interest to me because I, you know, I'm in the environmental medicine space and looking at some of those external drivers of eosinophil activation.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I'd love to hear from you when a clinician's looking at it on a GI map, what is that informing them about and what should they do about that?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we we do get a lot of questions about that.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not one of the markers that comes up frequently.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's fortunately not that common.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would say maybe 10% of patients tend to have elevated, but it's it's something that's much more commonly elevated when patients have food reactions.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of research on the role of eosinophils in food reactions, particularly food allergies, and also the interactions between eosinophils and mast cells.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: So these are kind of both your key cells that are picking up on what's going on in the mucosa.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: Are we being exposed to toxins?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Are we being exposed to certain microbes, allergens, etc.?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: So they're kind of these sentinel cells in the gut.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when it's activated, of course, that's telling you by definition that eosinophils are activated.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Studies actually show that most eosinophils in the gut tend to be in the upper GI tract, particularly in the small intestine, to some extent in the stomach.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're not commonly in the esophagus, but they sort of can be in eosinophilic esophagitis.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: But they're actually even just by default present in the small intestine.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the key there is are they activated or not?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because they have normal functions in the gut where they're actually helping to maintain the intestinal barrier and immune balance.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: But once basically something triggers them, they detect something that they need to fight off, then they become activated.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really kind of your key marker to let us know that eosinophils are activated.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a different type of inflammation than the type of inflammation that's reflected from child protectin.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really one of the advantages of having more than one immune activation marker.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Cal protectin is kind of more your classic inflammation that's involved in inflammatory bile disease, infections in the gut, etc.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's that's really a little bit about Eos NFL activation protein.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, one of the things I think that's not as well recognized is how the gut sort of um interacts as a whole.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know we kind of touched on this a little bit, sort of systems level approach.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so just to kind of give you one really important example, of course, with GI Map you can assess the commensals, uh, some of those key commensals like acromantia, fecalibacterium.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: So fecalobacterium is one of those important butyrate producers.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it's uh significantly important enough that overall butyrate levels track with fecalobacterium.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it turns out that butyrate is one of the factors that can help keep eosinophils, mast cells, and other immune cells from being overly activated.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if you see that eosinophil activation protein high, patients having a lot of food reactions or other types of reactions, sometimes it's things like mold, environmental exposures.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the things you potentially can do to reduce that is work on the commensals if you see that those are deficient.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a great point.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: Put all those pieces together, but once you start to learn how to connect these dots, it gives you a lot more that you can act on and you start to see how these things are connected.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um gives you new avenues for basically helping to support patients.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's such a good distinction.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think also when we're looking at that eosinophil activation where you're having food reactions, you can then also filter through is the secretory IGA appropriate and therefore mucosal biofilm okay, or is it low and therefore the gut wall is vulnerable and more reactive and would perhaps settle down if we could raise that?
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it highly elevated, meaning there's probably some sort of infection that the body's trying to respond to that then's having a domino effect into the rest of the body?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_03: And certainly for me, I would also pop in there an exposure to mycotoxins as well.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: We see an increase in eosinophils as a potential, potential issue.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: And the other thing I wanted to ask you about was occult blood in terms of that either it's present or it's not, or looking at it through the lens of a more of a spectrum of a reference range, and what clinicians should be interpreting that data as?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: So of course, with any reference range, the cutoff level is meant to indicate a level below which it's less likely to be an issue, and a level above which, when it's flag is high, that it's more likely to be an issue.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, on GMAT, that cutoff is right around 10.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly it doesn't necessarily mean that if you have a 9, there's no problem at all, and if you have 11, it's it's really bad.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have to take into account the context of the patient.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of practitioners do get concerned if they see any level of occult blood detected because they feel that in a healthy gut, you know, that shouldn't really be the case.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's more just to give you an indicator of overall, based on the reference range and a lot of the scientific information that kind of goes into determining that.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are the levels detected more likely to be benign sources, such as hemorrhoids, etc., or just minor inflammation?
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or is it more likely to be something that you really want to pay closer attention to?
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the whole point of a reference range.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's if we just reported it as positive and negative, and you didn't know that there was any number there at all below 10, which is considered the cutoff for high, you wouldn't know to kind of pay attention to that, right?
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of practitioners see say five.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Something is okay, I don't need to necessarily act on this right away unless the patient has symptoms that would cause for concern.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to keep an eye on that, right?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I might want to recheck that in a few weeks, a month or so, and just make sure that's not increasing.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of similar to this idea of the low-level pathogens.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do you want to know that they're there or not?
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of makes it simpler if you don't report the low levels because it's like, okay, I don't a little bit of the ignorance is bliss thing.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know it's there, we're not going to worry about it.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but but having the information does tell you something.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's telling you there might be something you are on here less likely to be a big concern, but do monitor it just to make sure that it doesn't become a big concern.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I think you know, again, that this is the the challenging aspect to more and more sensitive pathology testing, which we're so grateful to have as practitioners, but it is you.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: Know by detecting you know more sensitive levels of things, it does then become a little murky.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's no longer a you know, see this, do that kind of situation.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: There is a bit of a grey area that people are operating in.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I think um just sort of going back to the Halicobacter pylori conversation again, I know we've touched on it a couple of times already and and gone into it fairly in depth, but just thinking out loud about what we were talking about to do with SIBO and whether or not the information that comes through suggests okay, it would be worthwhile investing in a SIBO test based on what we're seeing here.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you stand as far as the reference ranges for Halicobacter go in terms of?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: I know we've discussed there's virulence factors to consider, and there's also what is the overall volume.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, that's always going to be looked at through the lens of is this patient exhibiting any symptoms that we know to be either directly or indirectly related to Helicobacter infection?
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: But in terms of, you know, when we see that come through on the GI map, just like with SIBO, the GI MAP is not a replacement for breath testing.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: GI MAP is not a replacement for antigen testing or breath testing or even biopsy with Helicobacter.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_03: How do you see those pieces fitting together clinically for someone in practice?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it really depends on sort of uh to some extent what the purpose is for using the different tests.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um when it comes to a tool like GMAP that covers a lot of bases, right?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it depends on really what the symptoms are and sort of what you're looking for, but it's a great screening tool.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you see that H.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: pylori is present, um, but it's not high.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's maybe in that E2 range, so it's it's there, but it's the patient may not have any symptoms consistent with H.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: pylori.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some practitioners will just leave it at that and they'll focus on other imbalances.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Others may decide, well, based on this patient's presentation, you know, we're seeing evidence of low stomach acid or something that might cause them to decide to treat.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: The test itself, of course, doesn't dictate whether the practitioner treats or not, that's clinical judgment.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if it's above that cutoff level, again, the cutoff levels are meant as a little bit of a red flag to say, hey, this may be more significant.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Pay a little more attention to it because it could be a cause of the patient's symptoms.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the test itself telling you, yes, the patient's symptoms are definitely caused by H.P.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: Lori because it's above that number.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: So um they're really meant to be guidelines, they're not meant to really be strict.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as it's above this level, you must do X, Y, or Z.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: That clinical judgment is really very important, and clinical judgment, of course, depends on a lot of factors, including how well educated you are in interpreting the test.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really a big focus area for Diagnostic Solutions Lab, is really to help it educate practitioners so you have the science-based background, the evidence-based background to help you decide what you feel is best for your patients.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think that perhaps addresses some of the concern around over-amplification and over-treatment.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I think with the amplification, that has more to do with you know the PCR methodology, but also whether having these things appear on the GI map is going to result in over-treatment.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, for better or for worse, it really comes back to the clinician being responsible for their own understanding and experience and being able to use their clinical judgment when looking at data in the context of the patient in front of them, their symptomatology, what their other pathology is also telling them in terms of what direction they're going to go in next.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_03: Is that something that you agree with, or is there anything further to add there?
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, I think you definitely hit the nail on the head.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the other analogies I like, it's not a perfect analogy because it comes to blood sugar, for example.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine that you got a patient's blood sugar result that just said in range or out of range, right?
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't get a number.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you might say, okay, it's in range, we're good to go, or it's out of range, we need to do something about this.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: Having the actual number for blood sugar, it could be sort of high normal, and you know that, all right, we need to try to optimize this further.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: It could be no normal, low normal, etc., or just a little bit out of range versus if it's you know a fasting blood sugar of 180, then you know that's a pretty significant issue.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's in some ways a good analogy because having those numbers and having a reference range gives you an idea of sort of how you want to approach it, how aggressively you want to approach it, what's the context again versus just sort of this positive, negative, it's there, it's not there.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, I think that's so important.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, again, it comes, it's not that binary, you have it or you don't, or it's a problem or it's not.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you sit on the spectrum?
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_03: And when you look at it in the context of symptomatology and what else is going on that we can see clinically and you know, pathology-wise, putting those pieces together, everything tells a story, doesn't it?
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_03: And can you interpret that story properly and translate that into what does this patient actually need to feel better and get better?
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, look, I I've I know I've picked your brains an awful lot in this conversation, and I'm not going to keep you for too much longer, but I am really curious.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_03: I know this is such an area, like a passionate area of expertise for you.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_03: And given you are in this working in this area of the microbiome and its connection to chronic disease and aging, are there any insights that you can give us?
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily in the context of what we can see on the GI map already, but what's sort of to come in the research and academic space around what the gut can inform us around aging and how well we're going or what we might need to do to age better?
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: That would be a whole additional episode.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's a really fascinating area of research.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of just at the early stages.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not sure if you've heard of this concept of hallmarks of aging.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, people are in the longevity field, that's that's something that's sort of a big focus area, kind of almost a framework.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the latest iteration is that there are 12 hallmarks of aging that have been identified that was updated from a version, say, 10 years ago.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, dysbiosis is one of the new hallmarks that was added.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: So they're now kind of recognizing this set of research for the last 10-15 years, that certainly there are characteristic imbalances that happen with aging.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they are likely related to the other hallmarks of aging.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the other newly added hallmarks of aging is chronic inflammation, right?
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that's a feature of most chronic inflammatory diseases, age-related diseases, it's also a feature of aging to the point where there's this term inflammaging.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it turns out that there's evidence that this sort of dysbiosis that happens with aging, um, which is often characterized not so much differently from what we typically think of.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: So a lack of the good guys and then an increase in quote, the bad guys, the opportunists, is pretty common.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, those sort of sorts of things can start to drive chronic inflammation.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there's evidence that that may be one of the factors that's sort of contributing to this age-related increase in inflammation.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it kind of cuts across the board.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can get into all kinds of details, which I'm sure we don't have time for now.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the ones that to me was fascinating, there's kind of a subset of the longevity medicine field and the sort of healthy longevity field that has to do with this regenerative medicine concept, right?
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's involved stem cells.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um we think of them in terms of stem cell injections and those sorts of approaches.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: It turns out that the microbiome now is known to play a role certainly in the gut in regeneration.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the microbiome balance has a big influence on that epithelial turnover, right?
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when we're talking about gut healing, everybody thinks about leaky gut, intestinal permeability.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're not so much thinking about this turnover of all the cells in lining the gut completely turning over every five days.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is really the essence of gut healing.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: You want that process to go well, and so the microbiome influences that process.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you have dysbiosis, that process is not going well.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's there's a lot of research around that.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but even in terms of, you know, there's more focus now on muscle health with aging, for example, in its relation to this um muscle loss called sarcopenia, it turns out that we talked about butyrate.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: Butyrate can help kind of tamp down on these inflammatory cells and kind of influence that balance.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: That process is known, what happens in the gut influences this muscle regeneration process.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: So in distant tissues now we're finding that the gut microbiome has these influences.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's just it's fascinating to see these different concepts coming out of research for how just this simple concept of balance of your microbiome and gut gut health balance can influence our systemic health in so many different ways, including in aging.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_03: I just think that's so fascinating and just brings us back to Hippocrates' age-old quote, all diseases begin in the gut.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, yeah, the you know, the the information we get from the GI Map really can quite literally be the key to not just gut health, but for the rest of our body, the rest of our well-being, and for the rest of our life.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_03: Just fascinating.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I would certainly love to have you back for another conversation on on that another time, Tom.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_03: But thank you so much for being so generous with your knowledge with us today and just so appreciate you taking us through all things microbiome.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's been my my great pleasure.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Tom.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you, everyone, for joining us today.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_03: And remember, you can find all the show notes and other podcasts on the Designs for Health Australian website.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Amy Skilton, and this is Wellness by Designs.