Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 806: Healing Trauma From The Inside Out with John Clarke

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Episode 806: Healing Trauma From The Inside Out with John Clarke · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Therapist Podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
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Therapist podcast and signing up today or welcome back to the Trauma Thepist podcast.
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My name is Gamiferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible
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selves, to be human, to be real, not just a clinician.
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I'm a big believer in who we are is more important than what we know,
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and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires
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intention. Can learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma
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Therapist project dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get
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started, all right. So five four, three, two and one,
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our folks, welcome back to the podcast. I am a thrilled to have
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back John Clark, John, welcome back, thanks for having me here.
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Welcome awesome man. So John's mission is to accelerate recovery from trauma, anxiety,
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depression, and addiction so that together people can create a more peaceful and
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connected world. As a trauma therapist, John creates a custom intricative therapy using
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a blend of evidence based therapies including internal family systems, I movement, desensitization
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and reprocessing, as well as somatic experiencing. Not only has he committed his
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professional life over the past ten years to helping others, he's personally done the
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work of the course of twenty plus years in his own therapy journey and healing
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from his own trauma. John just launched his own podcast called Going Inside Healing
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Trauma from the Inside Out. Welcome back. Been a long time, been
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a very long time. A lot's changed since I was here last and last
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time here as the business code, which part of me help in therapists with
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their business, and now yeah, as the clinical work that I do is
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kind of it's been a new chapter for me, you know, in figuring
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out who I am clinically and what to do with that and now really building
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a new platform about my clinical work. So yeah, thanks again for having
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me on to talk a little bit about all that awesome. So remind our
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listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently. Grew up in the
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Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, a town called Roanoke and probably would have spent
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the rest of my life there if I hadn't met my wife, who's from
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San Francisco, where I live now. So we jumped around the past few
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years North Carolina and then Paris, France for a few years until COVID happened.
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We came back here where we got settled, my daughter was born,
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and then I started a new group practice here in San Francisco. That's a
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trauma practice. So a lot's changed. And you know, some things are
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similar to my life and serrancists go before, but a lot is a lot
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is different. Awesome, all right, So let's let's start here. You
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know, before we went live, talk a little bit about the genesis of
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your whole journey. Let's let's jump into that. Yeah, I can say
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that. In fact, I heard you talk about this on your show recently,
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about how graduate students are largely unprepared to treat trauma. The I think
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it was with Janina Fisher. You guys were talking about this, and the
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only class I had remotely on that was on crisis intervention, right, which
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is like a natural disaster is happening, here's how to help people in that
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moment, which is not trauma work by any means. Trauma work often happens
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when the dust settles and people are left to pick up the pieces, or
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years later the trauma's destroying their lives and their relationship and their nervous systems,
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and then they go, now, what I think I need help? Like
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mini therapist, I realized after five or six years of being in practice that
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although I was comfortable having clients talk about their trauma, I really didn't know
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how to treat it and felt there was a big deficit there in my practice.
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I got EMDR trained and then the monday after the training, I started
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using it and saw that it worked incredibly well for doing what it's supposed to
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do, helping people. So let me just interject ahead. So during that
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time when people were sharing their traumas and you were like feeling inside you didn't
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want to do what were you doing or what was going on inside of you?
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Well, I was trained, for better or worse, in a richly
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psychodynamic program. So everything the client's talking about out there as a parallel to
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what's happening between you and I. So that lens we're always looking for this
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parallel process. Right, So a client out there is really dem on other
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people, and I'm looking for a parallel where they're demanding on me and using
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that as grist for the therapeutic mill and using inner personal process comments. So
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that's the lens I was trained in for so long and really had a hard
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time stepping out of that. Really, you're just working with transference, that's
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the main model, and trying to provide a corrective emotional experience by doing that
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type of dynamic differently. So the client is demanding with me, I can
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make a comment about that in an open and warm way, and we can
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kind of work through that, you together, and hopefully they internalize that shift
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and take it out there into their lives. When it came to trauma,
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and especially the memory piece of trauma, you know, if a client sits
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down and they start accessing that memory of when they were assaulted, they're in
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that memory all of a sudden, right, And I genuinely didn't know what
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to do other than help them talk about it, right, which I think
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a lot of therapists do well. Intending not knowing you're just putting them right
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back in trauma. Then you're fifty minutes this up, and you send them
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on their way, and now they've got to go do something to get either
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get back in their body or have seven or eight drinks or you know,
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have a road rage outburst or whatever it is. And so yeah, as
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well intending as I was, I wasn't. I didn't know what actual healing
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from trauma looked like. Yeah, so ifs you came across as what workshop
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or yeah. So a couple of years so EMDR helped, and it was
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helping my clients a lot, and I feel like get through the good and
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helping the memory component of trauma. But I never felt like it was enough
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and as complete as I wanted to offer my clients. So a couple of
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years ago, I burned out entirely from being a therapist. I think part
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of it was this psychodynamic piece around having to be this person for twenty people
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a week, and the way I was trained to basically draw out transference from
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clients and then to use that inter personally was just draining me. It felt
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like a heavy mask to whar it always did, and I struggled to take
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that mask off to kind of feel like I could be myself in session,
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to be known by clients. So I felt confusing that I was both really
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close with my clients in a way in a form of closeness. It also
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felt very kind of invisible because I had been trained so traditionally write a bit
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of that blank slate piece where I want to be somewhat blank so they can
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project onto me. Right. So, after burning out entirely and not doing
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therapy and thinking, man, maybe I'm not even cut out for this,
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right like my identity, my lifelong journey, my passion, Maybe I should
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just do therapy adjacent things like coaching, business coaching for therapists, running my
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practice whatever. I was sitting down at lunch and a friend of mine she
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started talking about internal family systems therapy, and the way she started talking about
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it was like talking about the new Apple headset that just came out. Like
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I've never seen someone talk about a therapy model like this, especially a client.
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You know, a lot of people like they enjoy therapy or they're glad
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they do it, but it's also hard, you know. And she was
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so over the moon about it and such a kind of fanatic that I was
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like, I got to look into this again, and I vaguely remember this
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IFS thing, you know, from from grad school, and I thought it
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was like, Okay, you have you know, your dad internalized, so
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you have to try to like control that part of you. And that's kind
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of my sense of it. Yeah, very wrong, very an inaccurate sense
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of what IFS is. But that led me down this road to go start
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learning about it and immersing myself in the IFS world. Yeah, so just
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back up a little bit. What when this client was talking about if as,
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what was she lighting up about specifically about it? I think in my
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experience, shame is such a huge part of the work we do, especially
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in trauma work, and a lot of models I think kind of talk around
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shame or managing shame. I f S. The way that i FS regards
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humanity and pathology is so inherently compassionate. Right, So if someone comes to
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me and they say, well, I'm here because well, I've I got
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really angry. I was in a fight with my wife and I got angry
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and I punched the drywall. So now I'm here and there's this thick layer
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of shame already, right, that something's wrong with me. You know,
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my mentor and the guy who taught me i FS, he just passed away
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a couple of weeks ago, Derek Scott. He would always say this idea
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of what if nothing's wrong with you? Right? And that struck me.
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So client comes in and instead of going, how do we manage this this
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anger of yours? How do we control it? Right? People even put
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in like I'm here for anger management versus how do we invite in the part
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of you that's holding anger, Get to know it, honor it, send
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compassion to it, right, see if we can help it out bring it
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into the present. The model just kind of clicked for me, And it's
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kind of like we all start off with Carl Rogers and this is like just
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so far beyond that in terms of not only regarding clients positively, but regarding
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their parts positively, and this idea that all parts have good intention right Tock
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Schwartz book, there's no bad parts. So the model just made sense to
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me from that perspective, and the second I started using it, clients started
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to get it too. Right. A part of you says, hey,
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you should go to the gym so you can get in shape and lose weight.
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You need to lose weight. Another part of you says, screw it,
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let's have seven pieces of pizza. Those are parts, and most people
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can get that and then that's the starting point for the therapy. Right,
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Hey, can we get to know the part that doesn't want to go to
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the gym? Right? And can you open your Yeah? Yeah, I
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love what you're saying. I mean, it's it's so allowing in a sense.
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There's there's there's a feeling that I get when I when I talk about
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that I f S. I think of it in terms of my own situation
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is well, okay, this is a part. It doesn't mean that I'm
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completely messed up. You know this this let's look at this part. And
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it's that perspective is what what it is? Just helpful easy, It's de
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shaming. It's de shaming, and I think that opens the door for healing
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in a whole new way, especially with trauma clients, where a lot of
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times when people are traumatized, there's also a belief they hold around what happened
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to them. Right. So, from an e MDR perspective, as we're
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doing the actual reprocessing, you just asked the client, is there a belief
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that goes along with this image, right or this memory? I'm worthless?
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It was my fault. I deserved it. Right. The way that IFS
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looks at that is that that part of you is holding that belief right,
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and a lot of times when that part is kind of driving the bus in
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our lives, we many of us are living our daily lives being led by
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a part that is young and wounded and traumatized. Right, And it explains
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a lot. So we have those parts, and then we also have protector
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parts that work hard to make sure that that vulnerable, wounded part isn't seen
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or activated or you know, contacted in any way. So you started looking
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into IPS, you got really excited about it, and now talk to us
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John about what this did for you as a person and in relationship to your
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clients as a person. You know, I don't know who said this.
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Maybe it was Yaalam who said you can't take clients further than you've gone yourself
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as a therapist. And I believe that to be true. I offer that
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to the clinicians at my teaching practice here, who are all trauma therapists and
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pre license and so you know, I went through MDR as a client before
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I started offering it, right, I really wanted clients to know, even
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if they didn't know or I didn't say it out loud, but have a
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sense that I've done this work. I know how hard it is to do
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this work. Same goes for the IFS piece. I have trauma from both
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my childhood and my adulthood, and so there are parts that me and my
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IFS therapist had to go toward that were extremely painful and extremely unsettling to kind
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of go back there. And yet because I had spent so much time as
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a kind of a relational therapist, I knew what to do when we access
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those young, wounded, vulnerable parts. My teacher Derek Scott would use the
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example. Let's say, well, in IFS we talk about this idea of
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self, your core self, your inner wisdom, whatever you want to call
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it, right self or self energy. Imagine that you're driving down the road
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and you see a seven year old boy sitting on the sidewalk. He's lost,
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he can't find his parents. Maybe he's got bumps and bruises on him,
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and he's completely scared. Imagine how you would approach him. Right,
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So, most people listening right now, whether you're a parent or not,
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have an idea of how they would do that. Right. You'd get on
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his level. You would approach him slowly, Hey, buddy, what's going
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on, Tell me what happened. It's okay, now I'm here, let's
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figure this out together. Right. That's self that's self energy, And so
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so much of IFS really is about helping the client access self energy because knows
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exactly what to do in that situation with that seven year old in real life,
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and with that seven year old boy inside who's still stuck and hurting and
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traumatized. So this whole process, this whole learning for you allow you to
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what be more authentic? Can we use that word in session? Or what
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I would say? So, I would say that's the goal of IFS in
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a way, is that when we are self led, we are more authentic.
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We're not being led by a part. A lot of my life and
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in a lot of moments, even professionally, I was led by a part,
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right, a part that was carrying hurt or a part that had something
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to prove. And now I know what that feels like, even on a
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physical level. I know physically what it feels like when a part takes over
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it. Right, So if someone in my life says, hey, John,
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can I talk to you about something? And my stomach clinches up,
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my throat is tight, I'm getting ready right to fight or run away or
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shut down or whatever. That's a part when I'm in self and they say,
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hey, can I talk to you about something, even if they are
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going to offer me something difficult to hear or some feedback, if I'm in
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self and I can be open to it and I'm physically open and curious about
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what they're saying, I can take that in even if it's hard, right,
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I might need to be. I need to reassure my parts that I
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can handle it right. Because when our parts don't trust us, they're the
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ones that jump in, take the wheel of the bus, and all of
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a sudden they're driving. And so I'm having this interaction with a colleague or
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my partner or whatever from a seven year old part right who is scared and
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wounded and freaked out and traumatized. So it explains so much of the disruption
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in our lives and our relationships right in our conflicts. Really, you know,
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a part of me is activated and a part of them is activated.
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So it's kind of part versus part. It explains a lot of our conflict,
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both personally and even more globally in terms of our ability to get along
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or or see each other. So yeah, So for for our listeners out
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there who maybe have heard of IFS but aren't too familiar, what would it
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look like? You know, someone walks into your office, maybe you know
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they've experienced trauma, or maybe you don't know. How do you be into
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work with them? How do they what are these parts? How do you
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introduce these parts? So one way would be to just talk about them or
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talk about the model a little bit, and for some clients that helps.
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Hey, there's this thing called IFS. You could use that example of one
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party you wants to go to the gym, one party wants to stay home.
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We could talk about that a little bit, or we could just kind
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of start doing the model. Right, So, with my client with the
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anger, instead of saying, hey, let's figure out how to control that
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anger, and maybe when you're about to be angry, when you're anger,
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you can take a breath or slap yourself on the wrist with a rubber band
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or whatever, which is what a lot of therapy focuses on, right like,
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how do we get rid of the symptom versus what is the symptom communicating
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and what part is it coming from? How do we go toward that part.
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So for him, I literally just the paradigm shift was, let's invite
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in that part that's holding anger, right, and when if you want,
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you can close your eyes. IFS calls this insight right going inside, close
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your eyes and just connect with that moment where you punched a hole in the
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dry wall. Notice what happens even, notice what happens in your body.
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So to me, I use a lot of the somatic piece of IFS.
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Notice what's happening in your body. Oh, there's this tension in my stomach.
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Okay, notice that? And when you focus on this angry part of
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you, how do you feel toward it? And the client goes, I'm
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annoyed and I need it to stop right or else it's going to ruin my
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life and I'm going to get a divorce. I get that. I get
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that. So the part of you that's annoyed or judges the anger, can
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you ask that part if it's willing to soften, Can that part step behind
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you? Can that part just hang out and watch as we get to know
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the angry part, and then can you turn back toward the angry part?
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How are you feeling toward it? Well? I feel sad for him.
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Right, this guy's really out of control. Okay, got it? Can
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can can you send him that compassion? Right, he's out of control.
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He just punched a hole in the wall. So by by inviting the client
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to do this, to have these this perspective, what are you doing,
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what are you drawing out? What are you essentially inviting them to do?
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Here? Yeah, so that the three kind of components of ifs that that
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I think of this helps me think about the work is unblending, unburdening,
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and self leadership and integration. So the unblending is this the part holding anger
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is a part of me, and and to your point, even that can
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help reduce the shame. Right, it's a part of me. It's not
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my totality, right, I'm not. It's like I'm an angry person or
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I'm an alcoholic versus like I have a part that likes to drink, Right,
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I have a part that compulsively drinks. Even that is so deshaming for
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people that if they can get a little distance from it and start to get
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to know the part that likes to drink, can you get to know the
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part that holds the anger? Right? Even though the other part goes,
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this anger is ugly. We got to get it under control. It's just
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going to ruin our lives, right, we get we get that, but
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it's kind of like we have to go into that part and be able to
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get curious toward it and really to explore its fears. And this is this
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is a huge part of ifs for me is when we get to know these
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parts, they're often holding fears. Right, So is he really is this
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part of him really angry or is it really scared? Right, it's scared
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that that that I'm being called bad by my wife and she might leave me.
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Right, So then the anger happened. All that makes sense. That
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might also be connected to an early memory and early moment right where this part
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it took on this role, and we want to get to know that as
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well. So then if it's an IF, it's kind of being offered to
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us. We walk through the unburdening sequence, which has to do with going
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in witnessing the part in its story and how it got this job, right,
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offering it a new possibility of what if you didn't have to do this
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job? Is that something you'd be interested in? There could be a do
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over, so this corrective emotional experience, where does this part want your help?
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Doing this moment over again, and then bringing it into the present,
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so updating the part, bringing into the present, into this room with you,
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into your life today, updating it on how life is right, so
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that part is no longer operating from this seven year old moment in time.
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And then releasing something, so the actual letting go of thoughts, feelings,
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beliefs that it's been holding around, I'm worthless, no one loves me,
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whatever it may be, and then integrating that part back into the system and
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helping it find a place where it can settle and ultimately learning to trust self.
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Right. So that's that's the ultimate goal, right, is that we
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have our parts. We're not trying to get rid of our parts. We're
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trying to help them out of their extreme roles and bring them into a self
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leadership. All of what sounds and is, I mean, that's intense,
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that's intense work. Yeah, by any stretch of the imagination, that's intense.
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But you can you can feel your energy. I mean, you've got
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so much energy around this. It's really cool to see and feel. It's
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intense and it's it's gentle you know, uh, I'm as much as I
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love EMDR, I also feel that at its core it's exposure therapy. There's
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a form of it that's exposure therapy. We're going toward the tough stuff and
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we're going to expose you to that while we stimulate both sides of your brain.
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Right with IFS, we might be going to that same memory. But
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when we go in there with self and we let self lead the way,
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and self is compassionate and kind and creative and connected in all these things,
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Self knows just what to do to help this part that is often young and
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wounded. We can also ask parts not to flood the system as we're doing
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this, because there is that risk of getting flooded, just like with the
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e mdaric and happen with IFS as well. But rather than the therapist saying
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I've got the draw the steering wheel and I'm deciding kind of where the trauma
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wark goes or how much we're going to expose you to today, in IFS,
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we completely trust self, and our role as an IFS therapist is to
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help clients access self and bring that self into their system to access their parts
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and help their parts so in that regard, it takes a lot of pressure
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off the therapist to kind of know what to do next. The main role
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of the therapist then is the therapists themselves being in self energy and working with
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our own parts, right, parts of me that want this to go well,
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arts that want the client I think I'm a good therapist, Parts that
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want them to heal from this trauma. Parts of me that want the client
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to not kill themselves, right or to drink less right because I'm scared about
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parts of me are scared about that. So that's where a lot of work,
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a lot of the work is for for for me. So does that
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then, UH call on you to what be talk about when you're in that
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moment when you're working with someone as a therapist and I have as a therapist,
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are you what are you inviting yourself to do? Even before the session,
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I'm checking in with my parts a little bit, and I have a
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part right now saying this all sounds crazy because it's like there's this fear of
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multiple personality disorder kind of thing that I have passed, and like, guess
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what, We're all multiple? Or this is where this model came from,
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right, this multiplicity idea. You have parts, like little personalities inside of
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you, which on one hint is really crazy, on the other is really
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natural. So as I get to know my parts, or even like I
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can name that, I have parts that were in our nervous about this episode
25:11
right or doing this interview with you, Arts that want to show that I'm
25:15
a good therapist, Parts that want to show that I'm competent. In other
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words, a fear that I might be seen as incompetent or someone might be
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going this guy doesn't know what he talks about. That part show up every
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time I do it any and you've been doing it, it's eight hundred.
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So then my job is not to talk that part out of its feelings.
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Just like with my four year old daughter, I'm trying not to talk hero
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out of her feelings because that doesn't really work. I go in and I
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offer compassion, reassurance. It makes sense that you're nervous about this interview with
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guy because you really want this to go well right, and you really care
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about this IFS thing, and you want to get it right, and you
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want people to like i FS as much as you do. That makes sense.
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That makes sense. Awesome all right, So as you kind of wind
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down here, let's talk about your podcast Going Inside. Yeah, when did
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you start it? Why did you start it? We're seven episodes deep,
26:11
and you know, I have the business I've been building since twenty fifteen private
26:18
practice workshop around teaching therapists about business. That was a way that I just
26:22
kind of fell into that I could help a lot of therapists with my goal
26:26
being to reduce human suffering on this earth, which is still the goal.
26:33
I just have a new vision now, the way that IFS has changed my
26:37
life and changed my clients' lives, I have an urgency to bring that to
26:42
people. I'm also not claiming I know everything about IFS by any means,
26:48
but just that what it's done for me has moved me so much, and
26:52
what it's done for my clients has been so transformative and really looks. I
26:59
didn't know what deep healing was until I did my first unburdening with a client,
27:03
a trauma client, and I thought, this is deep work, this
27:07
is spiritual work, and everyone needs to know about this. So I have
27:11
this urgency to bring it to more people. So while I had that experience
27:17
of building a platform, building an audience, like you have, but in
27:19
a different for a different reason. I just want to now bring something to
27:25
people suffering from trauma and to trauma therapist, to bring the IFS model to
27:30
them. Not only is it a modality, it's really kind of like a
27:34
way of life, kind of like if you and I have conflict, I
27:40
can honor that I have parts activated around it. Those parts are not all
27:42
of me, and you might have parts up. Can I learn to love
27:47
my parts? Can I learn to love your parts? Right? So if
27:49
I can do that, I can humanize people. I can humanize anyone,
27:52
right, even people that do unthinkable things. That's a part of them that's
27:56
in pain. So I really start walking through the world a little differently with
28:00
IFS and just seeing people differently, seeing pain differently, healing differently. So
28:07
that's why I started the podcast. It's called Going Inside and Primary Focus.
28:11
Yeah, it is healing trauma through IFS, but we've already made some departures
28:15
into EMDR somatic experiencing, pulling in different modalities. But it's been great so
28:22
far. It's deep into my learning about trauma and what healing really means.
28:26
And I just hope that it helps some people out there as kind of like
28:30
an adjunct to the therapy. They're getting to also listen to the podcasts and
28:34
learn from some of our great guests. So would you say it's for therapists
28:38
for survivors both who the idea is. It's for survivors, it's for my
28:45
trauma clients. That's who I think about when I'm kind of making these episodes.
28:48
I think naturally trauma therapists will listen as well. But I've been serving
28:52
therapists for a very long time now, and I really wanted to bring something
28:56
to clients and make it really user friendly. And when I'm listening to a
29:00
guest, I try to decode things a little bit to make it user friendly
29:03
for a non therapist. So that's that's the vision for the podcast is really
29:08
to really to eradicate suffering from trauma and PTSD. You know, that's really
29:15
I know personally the effects that trauma's had on my life and the close calls
29:21
I've had and the disruption to my relationships, my health. I know that
29:26
trauma can ruin your life. That's never lost on me. And so that
29:30
goes back to that urgency piece of just wanting to bring ifs to as many
29:33
people as possible so that it can help them. Awesome, John, Awesome
29:40
man, Seriously, dude, you're doing it. I can feel it,
29:45
seriously. Uh you know, I when I when I do these interviews,
29:52
I sometimes not all the times, but a lot of times I can feel
29:55
it. And I can feel your intenseness in the best way possible, best
30:02
use of that word, and just your just groundedness you have. You know,
30:07
it's really cool to feel. So we'll have your podcast linked up here
30:12
at the show notes page at the Trauma theapis podcast dot com. Now are
30:17
you working? You're obviously doing individual stuff, you're doing group stuff with people.
30:21
How can people learn more about what you're doing? Yeah, I still
30:23
I see clients one on one. I'm back to my clinic work, you
30:26
know, full steam. And so if people in California are interested in getting
30:33
therapy with me, they can go to John Clark Theapy dot com. If
30:37
therapists or other types of healers, coaches whoever are interested in learning IFS,
30:42
I offer consultation as well, which really IFS consultation is about the therapist learning
30:48
their own system, learning their own parts. So it looks a lot like
30:52
therapy, right I'm going to kind of do IFS on you as a way
30:56
to teach you ifs. That's a very IFS thing, is to teach by
31:00
experiencing. So yeah, for anyone who wants to learn the model, offer
31:04
one on one consultation and plan to offer consultation groups as well. For too
31:10
long. Awesome, awesome John, Pleasure Man. Love to have you back.
31:15
I mean, I feel like I wanted to ask you a lot more
31:17
questions and we could have gone a lot of different ways too, But really
31:21
excited about everything you have going on here and thanks so much for being here.
31:25
Thanks again for having me. Good to see you man. Pick Care. Cheers