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The Starter, the Sustainer, and the Closer · I Hate Talking

• 0:29
  I Hate Talking: Welcome to episode 52 of I Hate Talking.
• 0:32
  I Hate Talking: Hi everyone.
• 0:33
  I Hate Talking: So today's word or phrase is a phrase and it is a phrase known as sturgeon's law.
• 0:41
  I Hate Talking: OK, so sturgeon law is a term or phrase coined by a science fiction author named Theodore Sturgeon, and basically the quote that he coined and this became quote unquote Sturgeon's law is that 90% of everything is junk.
• 1:01
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 1:03
  I Hate Talking: So basically it's often used to highlight the prevalence of low quality contact.
• 1:10
  I Hate Talking: It's often.
• 1:12
  I Hate Talking: And this particular law or phrase is often used to highlight the prevalence of low quality content or work in any field, but obviously since he was a science fiction writer, I think uh when he was describing this originally, and initially he was probably referring to science fiction as a genre, but essentially that became known as Sturgeon's law for any field.
• 1:37
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 1:38
  I Hate Talking: So hopefully our podcast does not fall within the 90%.
• 1:43
  I Hate Talking: I don't think it does, but maybe other people think it does.
• 1:47
  I Hate Talking: I don't know.
• 1:47
  I Hate Talking: What do you think?
• 1:48
  I Hate Talking: I, I don't know, I enjoy it.
• 1:50
  I Hate Talking: I have fun talking to you.
• 1:51
  I Hate Talking: learning things like Sturgeon's Law.
• 1:54
  I Hate Talking: That's true.
• 1:54
  I Hate Talking: Have you ever heard of Sturgeon's Law?
• 1:56
  I Hate Talking: No.
• 1:56
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I don't think I did either.
• 1:58
  I Hate Talking: I heard it when I was listening to some historical information about science fiction and that came up in terms of that as an author and then the discussion was actually more on science fiction and famous authors, but this was sort of one of his claims to fame as it were.
• 2:17
  I Hate Talking: So that is how I learned about it.
• 2:19
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 2:20
  I Hate Talking: What kind of books does, I wanna keep talking about Sturgeon's Law, but first, what kind of books does he write?
• 2:25
  I Hate Talking: I don't know.
• 2:26
  I Hate Talking: I think it was for some of the.
• 2:29
  I Hate Talking: Magazines that existed, I think they still exist today.
• 2:34
  I Hate Talking: So he's not the 10% of sci-fi that gets read often.
• 2:39
  I Hate Talking: No, I'm guess he might not be because I cannot recall any of his particular works.
• 2:46
  I Hate Talking: So maybe he himself fell on that 90%, but I don't think he considered that as the 90% himself.
• 2:53
  I Hate Talking: So maybe we're in the same boat with him.
• 2:56
  I Hate Talking: We think our own content is great, but maybe it's not.
• 2:59
  I Hate Talking: You, our listeners can let us know if you would like to hear a particular word or phrase or have feedback on.
• 3:04
  I Hate Talking: Any of these episodes, and if you do enjoy the episodes, you can like, share, subscribe, do all the things, just send it to one person and maybe they'll enjoy it, and they can for themselves decide if it's in the 90% or the 10% or send it to 10 people and one person, one person will like it.
• 3:22
  I Hate Talking: Well, that's true, I guess if we use that and then I guess why stop there?
• 3:27
  I Hate Talking: Might as well send it to 100 people and then maybe 10 people will like it.
• 3:30
  I Hate Talking: Do you think that that um applies to like conversations or actions also?
• 3:37
  I Hate Talking: That like 90% of what people tell you, you kind of just ignore?
• 3:41
  I Hate Talking: It's quite possible.
• 3:44
  I Hate Talking: I'm not entirely certain, but it does seem that it is true for at least content, and I think that's what really he was getting at with the science fiction is that 90% of science fiction books or stories or publications are just not very good.
• 4:00
  I Hate Talking: And then same thing with other content.
• 4:02
  I Hate Talking: So in the modern day podcast or any books of any genre, I think would sort of fall within that sturgeon's law.
• 4:10
  I Hate Talking: I don't know if it's really necessarily Conversations or even skills per se.
• 4:16
  I Hate Talking: So I don't think that necessarily surgeon's laws apply to doctors as an example where like 90% of the doctors are just not any good, but that more refers to content.
• 4:29
  I Hate Talking: Right, OK.
• 4:29
  I Hate Talking: That reminds me, I was hearing someone talk recently and they were saying that confident people or people that are good at what they do or what they know.
• 4:39
  I Hate Talking: You don't have to talk much.
• 4:42
  I Hate Talking: Only have to say very little.
• 4:43
  I Hate Talking: People that are not confident, or people that do not know a subject well, We'll say a lot more words to try to justify and fill in the space.
• 4:54
  I Hate Talking: That is true.
• 4:56
  I Hate Talking: I've seen that with a lot of books that I've read over the years where, you know, maybe the first.
• 5:01
  I Hate Talking: 8 chapters of a 20 chapter book are pretty good and the author's doing a good job and then the last 12 chapters is like, they just sort of stopped trying or they just had to write filler word to hit a page count or something for the publisher, and it just falls off the cliff.
• 5:17
  I Hate Talking: Right.
• 5:18
  I Hate Talking: Now, the publication that I was referring to earlier is Weird Tales Magazine, which I don't know if I've ever read Weird Tales magazine, but I think he was perhaps involved with that in some form or fashion.
• 5:34
  I Hate Talking: Other authors would be like Ray Bradbury or HP Lovecraft and people of that generation that were writing science fiction.
• 5:42
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 5:43
  I Hate Talking: So that is our word or phrase, Sturgeon's law, not much etymology there because it is just the guy's name and then the fact that it became accepted as a law, I guess we can look up exactly when that became known or when that particular author lived.
• 6:02
  I Hate Talking: So, Theodore Sturgeon was born in 1918, died in 1985, and there is some references that this came to be coined as a term in 1951.
• 6:16
  I Hate Talking: Oh wow, I mean, that's relatively recent, but I was expecting it to be like 20 years ago.
• 6:23
  I Hate Talking: Yep, so the exact quote here according to Wikipedia is 90% of science fiction is crud, but then 90% of everything is crud.
• 6:34
  I Hate Talking: And that was surgeon's Law.
• 6:37
  I Hate Talking: OK, well then there you go.
• 6:39
  I Hate Talking: So the reason that we brought that up is that we thought it was an interesting phrase, not one that you really run into every day, but one that may be applicable to some things that you do run into every day with particular content that you are listening to or reading or watching.
• 6:58
  I Hate Talking: And it sort of ties in with our episode last time where we talked about rough and just in terms of when might be a good time to quit something or sort of the time bound nature that may be required in certain things that you may involve yourself in and wanted to perhaps continue that conversation where we left off last time with The sustainment versus the starter role when you are either starting something new in terms of an activity or a initiative versus those that may be better suited to sustain such initiatives and activities.
• 7:41
  I Hate Talking: Hm.
• 7:42
  I Hate Talking: So I think we said that typically I will fall into a sustainer role and you will fall into more of a starter role.
• 7:51
  I Hate Talking: OK, well, when you said that, it just clicked in my brain because there is a position I've started to take on a volunteer community position.
• 8:03
  I Hate Talking: And it's a lot of hours, a lot of work, and it's volunteer, but I'm really enjoying it and like really energized by doing all this stuff.
• 8:15
  I Hate Talking: But is that kind of like how I'm a starter, like, I'm starting this project.
• 8:21
  I Hate Talking: I'm starting basically from the ground up in this, this organization, and so maybe in a couple of years, I'm gonna have a hard time with that motivation that I have currently.
• 8:31
  I Hate Talking: I think so.
• 8:33
  I Hate Talking: Now, the good thing about this particular role is that it is somewhat seasonal in nature, so you probably have to do a lot of work at this particular time and So maybe next year I'll ramp up again.
• 8:45
  I Hate Talking: -- Maybe -- you'll ramp up and that might be a good routine for you that might find enjoyment and energy in the initial efforts and then not necessarily have as much energy and excitement to continue doing something.
• 9:01
  I Hate Talking: Now I think that's not necessarily always true, but perhaps chickens, sourdough bread, podcasting.
• 9:09
  I Hate Talking: I don't know if all those things quite have the same level of excitement in your purview as they did when you first started those things.
• 9:17
  I Hate Talking: That's true.
• 9:19
  I Hate Talking: My sourdough is done.
• 9:23
  I Hate Talking: It's gone.
• 9:24
  I Hate Talking: Where to go.
• 9:24
  I Hate Talking: I still enjoy eating it.
• 9:26
  I Hate Talking: I haven't had any in a while.
• 9:27
  I Hate Talking: Well, for anyone who doesn't know, I broke my wrist and right tendons in my hand a month ago.
• 9:34
  I Hate Talking: I haven't been able to make it.
• 9:36
  I Hate Talking: And at the time, I did not put the sourdough.
• 9:39
  I Hate Talking: I made it.
• 9:40
  I Hate Talking: I made our last sourdough the day I broke my wrist and right thumb tendons.
• 9:47
  I Hate Talking: So, I, I didn't put it away like I should have properly cared for it.
• 9:52
  I Hate Talking: And I was focused on the pain and such and healing.
• 9:56
  I Hate Talking: Currently, I only have one hand that's functional, and it's not my dominant hand.
• 10:02
  I Hate Talking: So it's just sitting there.
• 10:03
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, and then chickens, I think, probably had a lot of excitement about the chickens originally, but probably less so nowadays.
• 10:13
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I get excited when we get new chicks.
• 10:17
  I Hate Talking: That's exciting.
• 10:18
  I Hate Talking: Or when they haven't laid in a while, like in the winter, and then they start laying again, that's exciting.
• 10:24
  I Hate Talking: But the day to day monotony of it is rough.
• 10:28
  I Hate Talking: And podcasting.
• 10:30
  I Hate Talking: We're still doing this.
• 10:31
  I Hate Talking: You still said you enjoy talking and producing hopefully good 10% content.
• 10:37
  I Hate Talking: I enjoy it, yes, and I love talking to you.
• 10:43
  I Hate Talking: That's what I like.
• 10:44
  I Hate Talking: I like talking to you.
• 10:45
  I Hate Talking: I wouldn't mind if it was just you and I talking face to face every night like this, or if we're talking in a mic.
• 10:52
  I Hate Talking: I think I don't like, OK, well, now this is turning into like a session for me.
• 10:58
  I Hate Talking: I'll turn it on you soon.
• 11:00
  I Hate Talking: I think I don't like having to do stuff.
• 11:03
  I Hate Talking: Like having to do this every week, having to take care of the chickens every day, having to put away the sourdough properly every time I make it.
• 11:15
  I Hate Talking: It's just not fun.
• 11:18
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, well, you resonate with that.
• 11:21
  I Hate Talking: Sometimes, yeah, I guess if it's something that I don't necessarily find intrinsically valuable or see a particular large benefit in doing, and that may be where some of the enjoyment is.
• 11:38
  I Hate Talking: Very low.
• 11:40
  I Hate Talking: But in terms of, I think maybe the motivation is different where I'm doing something because I feel like it is a duty to do it or a particular responsibility or that it does have some valuable output in terms of like we have fresh eggs or we have homemade bread or hopefully we are producing good content that people enjoy and actually learn something about themselves or very these topics that we have.
• 12:06
  I Hate Talking: So I don't.
• 12:08
  I Hate Talking: Necessarily do all those things for enjoyment.
• 12:11
  I Hate Talking: So maybe the motivation is different and that is maybe what actually drives some people to be sustainers versus starters or maybe that's just our particular interplay between us two and things that we do in our lives.
• 12:23
  I Hate Talking: Well, yeah, now I want to know from other people, if they consider themselves a sustainer or a starter.
• 12:29
  I Hate Talking: What's your intrinsic motivation?
• 12:31
  I Hate Talking: Cause I definitely like joy, I like Having fun and lightheartedness and joy.
• 12:39
  I Hate Talking: And I know, I mean, I know you do.
• 12:42
  I Hate Talking: I know you like it, but, uh, you, I feel like shut that part of your brain off a lot of times to go to duty.
• 12:51
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, it's a very comfortable space to be in that space for me where it's just whatever I'm providing is what is motivating me.
• 13:02
  I Hate Talking: And to your point, I do enjoy starting some things, but it always would be within the guardrails of what is like acceptable.
• 13:11
  I Hate Talking: So if it's too far outside, perhaps my skills or too far outside of things that I I would enjoy doing that, those things I may not actually pursue, but If it is something new within that.
• 13:27
  I Hate Talking: Narrow confines, and that is something that I perhaps would get joy from starting.
• 13:33
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 13:33
  I Hate Talking: And also just super, super fast, circling back for our chickens.
• 13:38
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, they've lost their excitement, but also our rooster is really mean and we need to rehome him.
• 13:46
  I Hate Talking: And so it's, I get kind of scared when I go in their coop because He like tries to attack me, and he's never tried to attack you.
• 13:55
  I Hate Talking: I get it, but he tries to attack me and so I don't want to go in there anymore.
• 13:59
  I Hate Talking: That is true.
• 14:00
  I Hate Talking: So some of these things will have particular difficulties or challenges or whatever the case may be, but I think, again, the sustainment will sort of override those particular challenges and I'll.
• 14:14
  I Hate Talking: Just perhaps grind my way through or bulldoze my way through those particular challenges and move on to the next thing.
• 14:23
  I Hate Talking: -- But -- do you want to live your life that way?
• 14:25
  I Hate Talking: I know, I know for sure you think your way is best.
• 14:29
  I Hate Talking: Just uh medium.
• 14:32
  I Hate Talking: No highs, no lows, just straight.
• 14:36
  I Hate Talking: But don't you ever miss like the actual joy and enjoyment and things?
• 14:43
  I Hate Talking: I get joy and enjoyment from doing things well and providing for other people or getting things to a point where they can be sustained and run on a routine and once those things are set, then they can continue to function and That is one way that I think I do derive joy, so maybe there's just also not only differences in motivation, but also differences in the source of joy where I will enjoy something for a far different reason than you might enjoy something and vice versa.
• 15:22
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, cause I mean, sometimes if I have fully enjoyed an activity, and it ends, I'm sad, like, oh, it's over now, where you'd probably sigh with relief, it's finished.
• 15:35
  I Hate Talking: In some cases, yes, I will actually be happy that said event is done.
• 15:40
  I Hate Talking: I feel like, is it similar to how at events, I always push us to leave early.
• 15:48
  I Hate Talking: Or if we have an event, I always make it shorter than your average.
• 15:52
  I Hate Talking: Because in my head I'm always like, I want people to leave and be like, man, I wish it was longer.
• 15:58
  I Hate Talking: I'm so sad it's over.
• 15:59
  I Hate Talking: And nothing brings, I get so much joy from hearing people say that when they leave, like, oh, I'm so sad it's done.
• 16:06
  I Hate Talking: That was great.
• 16:07
  I Hate Talking: So is it kind of like that?
• 16:09
  I Hate Talking: Because I feel like you'd stay till the end, or you would have something be longer typically, I always like leave before people want us to go.
• 16:19
  I Hate Talking: We got to go before they start thinking we should, it's time to leave.
• 16:24
  I Hate Talking: That is a particular strategy that you employ.
• 16:27
  I Hate Talking: I don't know if I really have strong feelings on it one way or the other.
• 16:30
  I Hate Talking: To your point, I will do something until A particular end time or if they're, like we talked about last time, if there's no end time, and I sort of just do it.
• 16:40
  I Hate Talking: In perpetuity.
• 16:42
  I Hate Talking: Obviously, that's not something that has a specific hour event, but more related to Days and weeks and months and years where there's not necessarily particular time bound.
• 16:54
  I Hate Talking: What about, as an example, TV shows or movies like The Office, we both love The Office.
• 17:03
  I Hate Talking: Uh, you stopped watching it when Steve Carell left though.
• 17:08
  I Hate Talking: Well, I think I attempted to watch the next season or maybe some of the episodes where they were doing some of the interviews and I think he was still part of the cast at that point in time.
• 17:21
  I Hate Talking: But yes, I think I did attempt to watch some of it and actually I think I may have, even though I didn't enjoy it, grind through some of the episodes, but like if you ask me about them today, I will not even recall some of them at all in terms of some of the character interactions or particular things that they had in those episodes because I don't think I was truly paying attention just because I was not enjoying it, but I think I did watch all of them just to mark them all as watched.
• 17:51
  I Hate Talking: One time years ago, we were on a Office trivia contest.
• 17:57
  I Hate Talking: And you could definitely tell your answers by the time they got to like 7.5 seasons, that's when Correll leaves.
• 18:04
  I Hate Talking: And I remember being like, we're on a team.
• 18:06
  I Hate Talking: I, it's OK, I got this.
• 18:08
  I Hate Talking: Don't worry.
• 18:08
  I Hate Talking: Because your knowledge is super high and then it gets to that point and it drops drastically.
• 18:15
  I Hate Talking: But what my point of bringing it up is, in your opinion, you would have rather them just stopped, right?
• 18:21
  I Hate Talking: Like, Instead of ruining it, it's not the right word, probably right, but like, We'll stop on a high.
• 18:30
  I Hate Talking: I don't know, that's what my thought process is like, at least for your opinion, you would have rather them stopped when it was the funniest.
• 18:37
  I Hate Talking: They're such great memories versus being like, uh, the end was OK.
• 18:43
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, perhaps.
• 18:45
  I Hate Talking: I think it went on far too long.
• 18:47
  I Hate Talking: So, uh, after the high and after Steve Carell departed, maybe finishing out that particular season and then calling it the end would have been fine, so.
• 18:57
  I Hate Talking: Yes, I think the extended portions of multiple seasons after his departure was far too much.
• 19:06
  I Hate Talking: So don't you think that there's a very valid role for a starter and for a sustainer to stop?
• 19:14
  I Hate Talking: The stainer can't go on forever.
• 19:17
  I Hate Talking: Cause I mean, could you imagine if you're watching Dwight right now in the Office?
• 19:23
  I Hate Talking: 15 years later, what he would be doing.
• 19:26
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, probably still farming beets, I would imagine, because he probably is a sustainer and he does things the same for a very long time or forever.
• 19:36
  I Hate Talking: His generations back, yes.
• 19:38
  I Hate Talking: Indeed.
• 19:40
  I Hate Talking: So perhaps there's a missing role and that is the closer that there needs to be another attribute within the starter and the sustainer to Tell everybody when it's done.
• 19:55
  I Hate Talking: Yeah.
• 19:55
  I Hate Talking: I mean, right with a book, if you're writing a book, just being like, hey, it's done, the book's finished, or a series or a task or whatnot.
• 20:06
  I Hate Talking: I feel like that could be a very valid role.
• 20:08
  I Hate Talking: Could that role be the sustainer or the starter, or is that a third party completely?
• 20:13
  I Hate Talking: Well, I think that's perhaps a question that we can contemplate.
• 20:19
  I Hate Talking: I don't know if we'll have time to fully discuss that in this episode, but we'll maybe give it a shot here.
• 20:24
  I Hate Talking: So I think that naturally, it will be the sustainer that probably takes on that role because they are the one that is continuing things that have been started.
• 20:36
  I Hate Talking: So maybe they need to come in and determine that this is Reached its final conclusion or maybe another alternative is that the starter comes back and start something new and then that replaces what the sustainer was doing.
• 20:54
  I Hate Talking: That's what we do.
• 20:55
  I Hate Talking: Or there's the the third role that maybe could be a separate role and they are the quote unquote closer, as I said, where they are saying it's time to end and then wrapping things up accordingly.
• 21:09
  I Hate Talking: OK, I mean, I see that as you were talking, like, me being the starter and the closer often.
• 21:14
  I Hate Talking: Because then I'm like, OK, I'm on to this new task.
• 21:18
  I Hate Talking: Let's do this instead.
• 21:20
  I Hate Talking: And cause you know your limitations, you can't do both.
• 21:23
  I Hate Talking: You end up like, OK, this one's done, now we're on to this new project.
• 21:28
  I Hate Talking: Perhaps I think it's a little bit different because the closer I think in the office example is going to indicate that the activity or show or whatever the case may be is past its useful life of whatever it is.
• 21:44
  I Hate Talking: So it has been expended, it is no longer providing value or is no longer funny, whatever the case may be, whereas what you described with the starter just coming in with a new project.
• 21:58
  I Hate Talking: is de facto stopping whatever the person was sustaining, but not necessarily for the express purpose that whatever was being sustained has fulfilled its purpose.
• 22:11
  I Hate Talking: OK, I can buy that.
• 22:13
  I Hate Talking: Also, do you think that the starter, in my head, I picture the starter being like tons of energy and motivation, and thoughts and plans right at the start, and then they burn out quick.
• 22:26
  I Hate Talking: And then the sustainer almost needs a starter, right?
• 22:31
  I Hate Talking: Because who's gonna start it or who's gonna have that big push at the beginning to Like when you're starting.
• 22:39
  I Hate Talking: A mower or starting a pressure washer, you need that real big burst at the beginning.
• 22:46
  I Hate Talking: And then it continues, right?
• 22:49
  I Hate Talking: In very simple terms, yeah.
• 22:52
  I Hate Talking: You don't like that.
• 22:54
  I Hate Talking: You don't like that, you need me.
• 22:56
  I Hate Talking: Well, I just didn't think the the analogy was quite spot on, -- but -- OK, give me a better analogy.
• 23:03
  I Hate Talking: Uh, better analogy would be some sort of electrical component that does need more energy at the beginning, so anything that has capacitors within it.
• 23:15
  I Hate Talking: So, for example, anything that is a cooling unit will have a lot of extra electrical equipment to boost the voltage in the very beginning, and then once that unit is running, then it will switch over to just standard power essentially.
• 23:34
  I Hate Talking: So I can see where you're going with like perhaps the starter components of a mechanical device, like a mower or pressure washer, but Yes.
• 23:45
  I Hate Talking: The, the point is, I guess the same is that there needs to be a burst of energy at the beginning to get things started to overcome some of that.
• 23:56
  I Hate Talking: Momentum need and then once the momentum is there, the sustainer can pick it up.
• 24:01
  I Hate Talking: Right, but like as a runner, right, like there's a sprinter that has that huge burst in the beginning, but they can't last forever.
• 24:09
  I Hate Talking: Or cross country.
• 24:11
  I Hate Talking: It's gonna be pretty steady the whole time.
• 24:13
  I Hate Talking: So it's kind of like both, right?
• 24:16
  I Hate Talking: Like if you use a sprinter in the beginning, and they tag in a cross country guy afterwards.
• 24:21
  I Hate Talking: And then they're gonna get really far, really fast.
• 24:25
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, perhaps, and I don't know if there's any relays like that, but I would imagine that in some relay races that you may put a particular sprinter or long distance runner at certain places within a relay race for that exact reason.
• 24:38
  I Hate Talking: OK, also, any listeners, if you know, side note.
• 24:43
  I Hate Talking: Our one of our kids was telling us how much they love running.
• 24:48
  I Hate Talking: It's so much fun and they feel so good when they do it.
• 24:50
  I Hate Talking: And I was like, oh, we could get you into cross country or track and field.
• 24:55
  I Hate Talking: I was getting him options, and he's like, I don't want to do any competitions.
• 25:00
  I Hate Talking: He's like, is there a competition?
• 25:02
  I Hate Talking: Well, yeah, sometimes he's like, I don't want to do it then.
• 25:06
  I Hate Talking: I just want to run.
• 25:07
  I Hate Talking: I want friends to run.
• 25:09
  I Hate Talking: So if there are organizations that just run and they don't compete for medals, or if you know of like, is that an option?
• 25:19
  I Hate Talking: Can we put him in cross country and not let him compete?
• 25:23
  I Hate Talking: he just find so much joy in running?
• 25:26
  I Hate Talking: I have no idea.
• 25:28
  I Hate Talking: We'll have to look into that or like you said, our listeners can let us know.
• 25:32
  I Hate Talking: But I guess that's another thing that We will start and sustain for as long as it is enjoyable.
• 25:41
  I Hate Talking: Or beyond, because I think we still do some things that are maybe not as enjoyable, but they do serve a purpose.
• 25:49
  I Hate Talking: Right.
• 25:49
  I Hate Talking: Yeah.
• 25:50
  I Hate Talking: Well, I think that covers what we wanted to talk about in terms of sustainment and starter and we even added in the closer there.
• 25:59
  I Hate Talking: So I think it is time to close out this episode.
• 26:02
  I Hate Talking: So, from your friends at I hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.