Latest / Anele and the Club on 947 / If a photographer takes your picture, can they post it?

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If a photographer takes your picture, can they post it? · Anele and the Club on 947

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Wake up with a bang.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Hey, wake up! Anele and the club.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: On 947.
• 0:05
  Speaker 3: There is a question looming.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: And the reason it's looming is because the more social media,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: you know, goes on this wildfire, the more our events
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: are now covered by professional photographers. Weddings, baby showers, anniversaries, graduations.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Friday night out.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Matric dancers, all of that, right? And there's a bit
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: of a... a debate between photographers and clients where photographers
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: feel like because they took the photo it now belongs
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: to them and i'm just like yeah but i paid
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: for it so surely it belongs.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: To me yeah i think a lot of people get
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: that request often now you've booked someone let's say you're
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: doing a family photo shoot and then it comes out
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: really nice the photographer says can i use this for
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: my social media I think.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: The answer is yes, if the client says yes. But
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: then also throw a discount our way if you're going
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: to use our pictures to get more business. Otherwise, you
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: have no business posting my photos at all.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I agree with you. You want a discount?
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: I think, you see, I think you're thinking from a
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: very different point of view because of who you are.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: So you're saying I would like a discount because I
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: know Frankie, Cindy and Ellie, we all have big followers
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: that if we had to repost the account or people
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: had to see us on another page, that would bring
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: that photographer more money. But for the average person. If
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: the photographer asks and you say yes, why not? I
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: was asked by our photographer for my daughter's matric dance
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: if he could post her pictures. And I said, only
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: one picture of her alone.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: None of us in it.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: And he said, okay, fine.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: That was fine.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: But he asked first.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: But that's another thing.
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: He asked.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: He asked.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Lady photographers, I mean, for instance, one of our detectives
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: on Masked Singer's Teller, Yes, yes, yes. When she got
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: engaged at Lake Como, the photographer who the husband, well,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: you know, fiance, had booked to capture all, he posted
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: the pictures even before she or her fiance did.
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: No.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: That's not right.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: But that's, yeah, that's not cool.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: And no, but his rationale is you must remember the
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: photos belong to me. I took them.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: So legally, who.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Do the photos belong to? Because I don't think they
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: should belong to the photographer. It's me in there and
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I paid you.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: This is an interesting conversation because I actually don't know.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know who it would belong to.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: If I pay you for cupcakes and you sell me
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: cupcakes and then I eat halfway through the cupcakes and
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: now do you legally allowed to have the cupcakes back
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: because you want them because you made them?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: No, I paid you for that service. So the entire
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: thing is mine.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: It's mine.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: And I get that you took the photo. But what
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: if you took that photo and I don't want anyone
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: in the world to ever see the photos? I just
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: want to have them for myself. Just because we're on
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: social media now doesn't mean or you've got a website
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: doesn't mean that My photo belongs to you. That is me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: I'm a human.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: That is me.
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: That's mine.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: But photography is an art. So a lot of people
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: see it as... It's their art.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, then go take other pictures. That can be your art.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Don't include me in your art. Me and you, we
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: have a client-supplier deal here.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: And also, luckily, all of these cameras, they belong to you.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So on a random Saturday when nobody's booked you, go
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: and take pictures, and then that's your art. And then
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: that's what you can use to post and to promote yourself.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: But you can't use us. To promote you.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, friends of mine, and this is what I'm saying.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: It is weird. Photography, this is now specifically photography we're talking.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And I think as an industry, it can get strange.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Friends of mine had amazing wedding photos done. And the
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: photographer wanted to use it for some competition of like
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: wedding photographers. And then the friend said no. And then
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: the photographer got all strange about it. Because it was
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: going to be in a magazine. And they went, no.
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: No, and then you go to the wedding expo and
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: then the photographer's blown up your picture and is using
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: it on their stand. And you're like, oh, that was
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: our moment. I mean, the stuff that you're allowed to say, no.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: That is ours. That is mine.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: 011-8838-947, has this ever happened to you where a photographer says,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I took the photos, therefore they belong to me. We
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: both own them, therefore I can do what I want
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: to do with my 50% ownership.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have to fight them for some reason?
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Legally, what is allowed? I think that's what I want
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: to know. Legally, what is right and what is allowed.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Who owns them.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And if you're a photographer and you're listening to us,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: you're like, well, you guys are speaking a lot of,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: you know, hogwash. By all means, ring us. 011-8838-9471. I
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: hear you out as well. Send us a voice note.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: If you have an opinion on this. I know you
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: have an opinion on this.
• 4:37
  Speaker 6: 084-00-00-9471.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: A similar thing happened to someone I go to church with.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Someone had ordered her a gift.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: And guess what?
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: Before the day, she doesn't even know about the gift yet,
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: but it's already on TikTok because he's advertising it.
• 4:53
  Speaker 6: But you've completely ruined the surprise.
• 4:55
  Speaker 7: I think what's lacking nowadays is a lot of photographers
• 4:58
  Speaker 7: out there, especially the young guys coming out.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Not everyone has contracts.
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: I love this conversation because that is actually my profession.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I think number one in the social.
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: Media age, how do you see the photographer's work, the portfolio,
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: through their website, their social media? So if we don't
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: post that, if we don't have permission to post it
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: from the client, how do you then see that this
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: guy is actually good at his work, number one?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Number two, it's actually, yes, frankly, he's right. It is
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: an art form.
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: So we actually do have, you know, rights to actually
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: still say that this is my work because it is
• 5:31
  Speaker 5: an art form.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: How we would see your work is if you take
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: your own photos in your own time and post that.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? I've got lots of
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: questions around this now. That gentleman, he raised a few there.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Let's go to the vault. Katlako, good morning. Good morning.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Good morning, Katlako. How are you?
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I'm good, thanks.
• 5:50
  Speaker 7: How are you?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: We are great. What's your take on this discussion?
• 5:54
  Speaker 7: I am passionate about this one.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Because? Because.
• 5:59
  Speaker 8: And so, you know, when you find a salon, right,
• 6:02
  Speaker 8: on social media with a large following, they need to
• 6:06
  Speaker 8: decide to book an appointment, go look good.
• 6:10
  Speaker 7: Then when you get there, they expect you to also
• 6:13
  Speaker 7: take pictures of yourself and show your face and they
• 6:15
  Speaker 7: want to post you on their pages. And you find
• 6:19
  Speaker 7: that that page is like 20,000 followers.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:21
  Speaker 7: And yeah, like you're not comfortable being out there. And
• 6:25
  Speaker 7: when you don't want to subscribe to that, it's almost
• 6:27
  Speaker 7: like you don't want to support other people's businesses.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: But you don't have to.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: It's fine.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: I don't have to support your business. I'm here and
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I'm paying. That's how I'm supporting.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Makeup artists also do that. Before you even sit on
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: the chair, they're running a live reel now. There I am,
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: the ninth character in your soapy of... I don't want to.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Do my makeup. Here's your 1,500 rand and let's keep
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: it moving. Ayanda, you involved the Faden Park.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Good morning, Nelly in the club.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: How are you, Ayanda?
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: I'm fine, thank you. I was in a situation, in
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: a similar situation actually three years back. Me and my
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: partner had a twin. So obviously we celebrated their first birthday,
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: so we obviously called the photographer to come and take
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: the photos and stuff. So we saw on the website,
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: on her Facebook page, she's posting other work, actually. So
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: I asked her personally, listen, I don't want you to
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: post any of my kids' photos, especially... where their faces
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: are visible. You can take the decor and the venue
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: and the yard, I don't mind, but not any faces
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: of us. I understand the inspiration and everything and it's
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: your job and it's your marketing way or the way
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: of you to market, but no faces of any of
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: the family members must appear on the photos. And it
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: was actually a And now, guys, it's unpleasant. Yeah, now
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: it's unpleasant.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: And now it's unpleasant because you still have to have
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: this wonderful energy taking my photos, but you want to
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: post them. I don't want you to post them. And
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: this is why we need to go legal. We need
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: to go to Adams and Adams.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: No, and this is why we've got candidate attorney at
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Adams & Adams who's got a strong interest in intellectual property,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: copyright and trademark.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Damn, Frankie, we need her. This is actually, we're going
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: to take a business card from here.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: We need to now. Her name is Sanda Nyoka. Thank
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: you so much for your time.
• 8:27
  Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, now you're listening to all of this and you
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: are just like, oh, listen to all of this emotion.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to come here and tell you what the
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: legalities of the situation are. And that's the beauty of
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: the law, right?
• 8:39
  Speaker 6: It just helps to settle all of these gray areas
• 8:42
  Speaker 6: that I think we deal with on a day-to-day. So
• 8:46
  Speaker 6: there's a difference between copyright authorship and ownership, right? So
• 8:50
  Speaker 6: a photographer, they might be the author in a photo,
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the owner of
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: the copyright. So in Section 21.1c, we talk about commissioned works.
• 9:03
  Speaker 6: So if I hire a photographer and I pay them
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: to take pictures at an event of mine, then I
• 9:11
  Speaker 6: become the owner of the copyright.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: So essentially the photographer is not entitled to say that, oh,
• 9:19
  Speaker 6: I own these photographs. I can post them whenever I want,
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: because if I have the copyright ownership, that means that
• 9:25
  Speaker 6: I have the exclusive right to publish the works when
• 9:28
  Speaker 6: I want to, if I want to, or to reproduce
• 9:30
  Speaker 6: the works. But sometimes what happens is photographers will then
• 9:34
  Speaker 6: enter into contracts with various events or clients to say that, look,
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: Without this agreement, you would automatically become the owner of
• 9:43
  Speaker 6: these photos. But in this contract, we want to waive
• 9:46
  Speaker 6: that and then I become the copyright owner so I
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: can then post it for promotional material or whatever the
• 9:51
  Speaker 6: case may be.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: But without that contract, they're not the owner and they
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: may not post.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: So in the event they do post my stuff and
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: they have not asked me. permission, I can invoice them
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: because I then, yes, you've licensed my work.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, yes.
• 10:07
  Speaker 6: You'd probably have to go via the legal route and
• 10:09
  Speaker 6: send a letter of demand.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: That's why you're here. That's why you're here. That's why
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: you're here.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: Exactly. That's why you're here.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Because you need to write, just keep a template there
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: and I can just change the names. I've got it
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: for you. I've got it.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I want to ask, because obviously you said owner and author, right?
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Which is the interesting part. So as an author, in
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: this case now the photographer, Is there any rights that
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: they have to the works? Must they ask or do
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: they have to be tagged? Because this is another thing.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: They love to be tagged.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Everyone wants to be tagged.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: You didn't tag me.
• 10:39
  Speaker 6: So as an author, right, if you're not the owner anymore,
• 10:44
  Speaker 6: you don't have any commercial or economic rights anymore. But
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: what you do have is what we call moral rights,
• 10:50
  Speaker 6: which is essentially just, The dignity in the work, you
• 10:52
  Speaker 6: can't go and make a foolery of it and thereby
• 10:56
  Speaker 6: damage the reputation of the author thereafter. But from an
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: economic perspective and getting compensation.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: It's done there.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: And I assume it means that if I am going
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: to credit anyone, I have to credit them because they
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: are the author. I'm not allowed to. You're allowed to
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: not credit, but in the event you do credit, you
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: can't credit somebody else for their work.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: So that's the rights that they do have.
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: I could have been a lawyer, girl.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: You could have.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: You get it. Yeah, first year.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I've been saying this for years. We should credit the
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: people paying. Like, because you guys quickly credit the photographer there.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, put a dollar sign with a
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: little dot and then credit whoever was paying for the party,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: whoever was paying for the photographer. That's who should get
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: the credit.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: You want to be told that you are the moreki.
• 11:40
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: You are the blesser.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: No, but I often look at photos and I'm like,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: these are beautiful photos and they've got blacksmith tag there.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: That's wonderful.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Who paid for them?
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I was like, who's the moreki there? I want to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: know who paid for this party.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Sananyoga from Adams and Adams, in closing, what is something
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: that you would like for us to always keep top
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: of mind in the social media world, in this IP world,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: in this copyright world that we all think is a given,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: but actually it's not?
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: I think the IP law world is just very complicated
• 12:10
  Speaker 6: and overly technical. And so if you can, and if
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: you can afford, get a legal representative, always enter into contracts.
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: when you're going to utilize the services of a photographer
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: or a photographer as well. If you have clients, make
• 12:23
  Speaker 6: sure that you have contracts so that if you want
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: to use their material for promotional purposes, make sure that
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: you stipulate that so that they can also agree and
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: give their informed consent. But I think contracts, contracts, contracts,
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: and read them as well.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: This is lovely.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Who did your nails? She's got lovely nails.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Do you want to tag them? Who's the author?
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I was actually wanting to ask another question. I wanted
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: to ask if she's single because my husband's got single
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: friends and I think you are perfect.
• 12:52
  Speaker 7: I am.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Are you single?
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: But I don't know if I'm 26. No, no, no.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: She's too old for Lufefe.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: No, I wasn't thinking Lufefe.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: I want to give her like a.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, Mark. Now you're too old for her.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Like a corporate guy. You know what I'm saying?
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? That must be in a room.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? You must come correct with
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: this one. Okay, well then, she is Sanda Nyong'o, candidate
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: attorney at Adams & Adams. Strong interest in intellectual property,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: copyright and trademark. You're wonderful.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 13:24
  Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: You're welcome.
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: Bye.