Latest / Beautifully Complex / 298: Why We Need to Stop Criminalizing Neurodivergent Behavior, with Sarah Templeton

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298: Why We Need to Stop Criminalizing Neurodivergent Behavior, with Sarah Templeton · Beautifully Complex

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Just start screening kids from a young age for all
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: these conditions, get them identified, get them diagnosed, get them
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: medicated if they need to be, and change their life trajectory.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think this is a worldwide problem. I
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: don't think it's just England and American Australia which is
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: not recognizing difficulties and then behavior develops from those difficulties
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and then we punish the behavior without looking at where
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the difficulties were behind that.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach Arthur
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: and mindset Mama, honored to guide you on the journey
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: to Beautifully Complex everyone. I'm really excited to be talking
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: to Sarah Templeton today who is an ADOHC author and
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: ADHD activist, and we're going to talk about the criminalization
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: of behavior and hopefully how as peerians and educators we
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: can be proactive to reduce the number of neurodivergent people
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: that end up in the prison.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Paper line.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Do you want to start Sarah by letting everybody know
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: who you are and what you do.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, Hi, everybody. My name is Sarah Templeton. And when
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I was forty nine, I decided to thrown to be
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: a counselor. And just after that I was diagnosed with ADHD.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: In I was actually fifty one, nearly fifty two before
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: anybody said you're ADHD, go and get diagnosed. I was
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: then subsequently diagnosed with severe dispraxia, which kind of explained
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of things, sensory processing disorder, which also explained
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of things, and this calculator, which also explained
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of things. So by the time I was
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: in my mid fifties, I've got all my diagnoses and
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: exactly who I was. That's subsequently OCD as well to
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: add to the mix. But I primarily now I don't counsel.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I used to counsel. I used to counsel in the
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: prisons and young offender institutes and I absolutely loved it,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and I loved every single person I worked with. And
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: then when I was diagnosed with ADHD, I realized why
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: They're all the same as me, So they all hate authority.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: They all hate being told what to do. They've all
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: done naughty things, except that I've done naughty things. But
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: they've done a lot naughtier things that have got them
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: into trouble with the law. And that's why I got
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: on so well with them. And when I came out
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: of the prisons in twenty sixteen, I began shouting about
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: the amount of ADHD in prisons and nobody was terribly
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: interested until I had set up a support group for
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: ADHD people and a police officer came and at the
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: end he came up to me. He said, Sarah. He said,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to say this in the meeting because
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I wasn't sure how popular it would be, but I'm
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: actually a Metropolitan Police officer. I'm ADHD, and I agree
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: with you because pretty much everybody i'm arresting I'm seeing ADHD.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing myself, you know, in these people. Now, from
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: that day, which was roughly two three years ago, that
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: police officer has managed to get me into the police,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: brilliantly into the you know, the police in the UK,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: and we're now doing lots and lots of pilots. What
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: we're trying to do. Our ultimate goal here is to
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: make ADHD screening mandatory in police stations, so we catch
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: people when they're young and they first, you know, when
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: they're literally they could be nine, ten eleven, they do
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: something naughty and they get dragged into the police station
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: for the first time. That's when they should be screened
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: for ADHD if they're not already diagnosed, which most aren't.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: In the UK, most aren't, So we now are doing
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: screening pilots with a lot of police forces, big police
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: forces like Greater Manchester Police, West Midlands Police, Police Scotland,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the whole of Police Scotland are going to start. I'm
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: not sure if they've started yet, but they are going
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: to screen and all the police have been brilliant in
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: the UK, absolutely brilliant that there's not one police force
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: we've spoken to he said, oh, that's no Sinse, that's
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: absolutely rubbish. You know they've all said, yes, we know,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: you know, we know. We're arresting a lot of kids
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: with ADHD ASD. Do you call it autism in America
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: or ASD asc is some people now called yeah, either one.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: We're the same and a lot of them actually you've
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: got ADHD and ASD, which is quite interesting. Some have
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: just got ADHD. Some are misdiagnosed, you know, some have
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: just been diagnosed with dyspraxia or dyslexia, and nobody's actually
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: identified that the root cause of that is ADHD. So
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: the police have been brilliant. I cannot complement our police enough,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: but I also have to complement police in Australia. We've
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: been approached by three different police forces in Australia who've
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: all said, you know, we love what you're doing. We're
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: watching it, we're seeing that it's going on in the UK,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: and we're loving it. So I'm going to Australia for
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: February March this year to talk to I hope as
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: many police force as I can. I'm definitely talking to
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Melbourne Police, I'm definitely talking to Sydney Police, and I'm
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: talking to Queensland Police. All of those have approached us.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: But we've also been approached by two police forces in America.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: And this is where it gets really interesting, because two
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: police forces contacted us and they said, we love what
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: you're doing. We know that our prisons here are full
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: of ADHD. They both independently. It was almost an identical
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: conversation I have with two different police forces in America,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and they both said, we totally agree. We know our
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: prisons are full of ADHD, but we are going to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: have it much tougher here because we are much harder
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: on crime and we are here in America. This is
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: what they've said. But both of them literally it was
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: almost like they you know, we have got a script.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: They were the same. They said, we absolutely know that
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: we're the same. We're no different to you, We're no
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: different to Australia. We are around with ADHD and quite
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of autism in our prisons. But they both said,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: we know it's going to be so much tougher to
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: switch people's thinking. And this is what I'm trying desperately
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: to do, because you know, I'm not rare, I'm not
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: the only person, but I'm probably the most vocal person
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: who is ADHD who has worked in the prisons and
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: has worked with all these people in the prisons. And
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: there's a real variety in the prisons. There are a
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: lot of boys who are eighteen nineteen who were diagnosed
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: ADHD as children and then taken off the meds by
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: their GP when they were told this is a childhood
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: behavioral disorder. You're aboutgrown it now you're eighteen. Take them
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: off the meds. Way, why I see them in prison?
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: You know they're in prison within a year or two.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: And some of those said to me, I know, I
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: need to go back on my med Sarah, I know,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I've realized that, you know, this has all gone wrong
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: since I've come off on a medication. So you get those.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Then you get people that know they're ADHD, but nothing's
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: ever been done about it. You know, their parents say, yeah,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: we know you're ADHD, but you know, we can't afford
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: to diagnosis or we can't go on the waiting list.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: And then those kids get into trouble, but they will
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: tell you I know I'm ADHD, I've just never been diagnosed.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of those in prison as well. And
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: then there's people that have no clue. Now it's the
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: no clue people I have a lot of sympathy for
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: because when I was diagnosed, literally three months before my
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: fifty second birthday, I had no clue. Nobody ever, once
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: in my life, ever said to me, do you think
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: you're ADHD or do you think you might Nobody, Nobody
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: even joking, seriously, Nobody, So I had absolutely zero clue.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of those zero clues in prison,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of them. There are people
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, there are people that
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: have been serving twenty thirty year sentences. You know, in
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the UK we give a lot of short sentences. So
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: they're in out, in out, in out, in out. They're
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: costing probation of fortune. They're costing the police a fortune,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: they're costing the prisons of fortune, they're costing the taxpayers
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: of fortune. And actually what they've got is undiagnosed ADHD.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And it can be absolute. I mean, it can be heartbreaking. Actually,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I've sat in front of somebody. I'll give you just
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: one example of many, sat in front of somebody who
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: was fifty five, who'd been in and out of prison
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: all his life and was in again on a very
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: short sentence, and I worked out he was ADHD in
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: the first sorry, in a third session, because he kept
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: talking about the buzz when he'd done what he'd done.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: He got the buzz, the buzz, the buzz. But he'd
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: done loads of courses in prison trying to find out
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: why he did what he did because he didn't want
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: to do what he did, and he hated himself for
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: it and beat himself up, and he had really really
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: low self esteem because he spent most of his life
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: in and out of prison. He also then told me
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: that when he went to school, he was a special
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: needs school. So he went to a special needs school,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: but nobody had worked out he was ADHD. He couldn't read,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: he couldn't write, and he all he'd done was because
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: he couldn't read and couldn't write, he couldn't get a job.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: He found it very difficult to work, you know, because
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: of those disabilities. And then he'd ended up just going
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: in and out of prison because all he knew how
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: to do was nick things, you know, to live, he
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: had to steal. And when I told him, I said,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: I think you might have this, and we went through
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: all that. You know, he was crying because everything suddenly
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: made sense why he had committed crime after crime after crime.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: But it was all very petty crime. And this is
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: what you find with a lot of ADHD in prisons.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: You know, most of them are in there for very
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: petty stuff. It's fighting, it's stealing, it's criminal damage, it's
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: a fray that's not to say people with the ADHD
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: don't commit murder, rape, because they do. You know, they do.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: They do do those things. But that's a very small percentage.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: The much a bigger percentage. It's just people that haven't
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: been identified early enough, and a lot of them can't read.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: You know, our government has got as far as saying
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: our prisons are full of dyslexia. Yeah, we know that,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: and we know that they've got dyslexia, but keep digging
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: because they haven't only got dyslexia, they've got something else.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: So I think the last report came out that said
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: something like fifty I think it was fifty one percent
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: in prison have got dyslexia. Keep going, Keep going because
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: it's not just aslexi. So with all the pilots that
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: we're doing, all the trials, pilots, everything, we're doing loads
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: of them, it's all basically for one reason, and that's
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: that we want mandatory ADHD screening. So we want it
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: in youth offending services, we want it in police stations.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: We're a long way ahead with getting in police stations,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: and we want it in preprobation. You know, so when
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: a probation officer meets a new client for the first time,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: first thing they should do is an ADHD screener. And
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: if it's not ADHD, absolutely fine, rule it out, you know,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: but if it is, then there's a reason to do something.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: And all the probation officers that I've spoken to have
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: been brilliant, you know, because it is probation's job to
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: keep people from reoffending and also to protect the public.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So when I've gone to them and said, actually, you know,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: he's scored really high on an AHD screen now and
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I've been through all the traits with him and everything
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: is resonating, every probation I've spoken to has been brilliant.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. So what do we
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: do now? And like, you get them diagnosed, and you
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: get them on the medication, and you'll probably never see
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: them again. Because all the boys that I've worked with
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: who are medicated, that's it. They don't offend again because
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: they're not looking for the buzz, they're not getting drunk,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: they're not doing drugs, they're not having to steal to
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: pay for drugs, you know, and they don't offend. It's
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: very very simple. And also when you talk about the
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: school to prison pipeline. This is something I'm massively passionate
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: about because in the UK we get a lot of
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: school exclusions. You know, so people are thrown out, thrown
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: out for natural ADHD, you know, telling a teacher to
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: f off or punching somebody in the playground, natural sort
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: of ADHD, you know, anger, frustration, whatever, and they get
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: they get excluded from school for that. Now there's a
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: big campaign actually going on at the moment in the UK,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: and that's to just ban school exclusions because when you
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: exclude a child, what you should have done is actually
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: work out what was going on for that child. You know,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: was it ADHD? Was it autism? Was it because they
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: couldn't read and write and they were embarrassed and humiliated
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: and didn't want to sit in the school because that
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: was embarrassing. Dig you know my big words, they're always dig, dig, dig, dig,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: and find out what's going on, because if you just
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: exclude a child, you are almost definitely sending them off
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: into the world of homelessness, drugs, prison police. What are
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: they going to do if they're not at school? Stop
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: throwing them out of school and instead find out what's
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: going on for them and help them learn because so
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: many of these kids when they're older. We're seeing people
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: in their forties and fifties going back and doing degrees
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: because actually they're quite right, you know, but because when
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: they were at school, somebody didn't understand that, well, they
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: are quite bright, but they've got dyslexia, so they need adjustments.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people in this country who
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: are diagnosed ADHD who were in their literally forties fifties.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing one tonight who's in her fifties. She's doing
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: a master's and she was in care. You know, she
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: was in care because her mother couldn't cope with her.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: She was undiagnosed ADHD and ASD. She was homeless, she
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: was in homeless hostels. You know, she had a really
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: tough childhood and teenageers or because she wasn't diagnosed. Now
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: she's diagnosed, she's a she's actually quite she's actually got
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: two or three degrees, this lady, and she's doing a master's.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: You know, she's very very bright, but nobody picked that
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: up because I think she hanged on to speak for her,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: but I think she might have dyslexia. She's got some
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: of the you know, the coexisting conditions, and there she
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: was homeless on the streets. Mother kicked her out in care,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: you know, because nobody understood what was going on. She
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: was actually extremely bright. So she's a classic case of
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: somebody who should not have been excluded from school at
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: fifteen as she was. They should have done found out
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: what was going on. She'd have stayed at school, done
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: a levels, probably gone to university then instead of thirty
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: years later, you know, when they had really traumatic passed
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: because nobody understood what was going on. Sorry, I'm not
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: terrible to get going off, but you know, I'm so
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: passionate about so passionate about this. It's not hard to change.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: It's not hard to empty our prisons, you know. But
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: it doesn't start in the prisons. It starts in the
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: school before. It starts in the schools with and parents
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: have a part to plane this as well, you know,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: parents have a right to get not angry. What's the
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: word assertive? Assertive about if a child is struggling, especially
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: if they're terrific in eight subjects but massively struggling in
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: maths or massively struggling with writing, there's a reason for that.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: And whereas at my school. When I wasn't good at maths,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I was told that I wasn't trying, and that because
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: I was good in history, English, drama, all the things
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: that were writing. I was fantastic the anything with numbers. Oh,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: you know, in that class, I was disobedient, I was distracted,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I was mucking around, I was writing sending notes, you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: because I didn't get maths, and it brought me to tears. Well,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: why didn't somebody look into that rather than telling me
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: you can do this. You get a's in everything else.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: You know, if you just focused, if you just concentrated,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: if you just made more effort, you would be just
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: as good in maths. Naw, I was never going to
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: be good in maths, but nobody bothered, you know, nobody
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: bothered to find out. And the tragic thing in this
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: country is I was twelve in nineteen seventy when I
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: failed my twelve plus exam to go to a grammar
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: school because I've undiagnosed SCALCUA. So that was nineteen seventy five.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: We're now in twenty twenty five and nothing has changed
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: in England. Nothing. We are not screening kids in school,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: we are not if a child's lucky. You know, their
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: mum or their dad or somebody will recognize the dyslexia
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and go and get them diagnose. But we're not screening
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: in schools, so these kids are still going under the radar,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: and they are still getting kicked out, They're still being
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: sent to special schools. Their self esteem is in their
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: boots because they think they're rubbish and they think they're
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: not as good as other people. It needs to change,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: and it's so simple to change. Just start screening kids
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: from a young age for all these conditions. Get them identified,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: get them diagnosed, get them medicated if they need to be,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: and change their life trajectory and save us a fortune everybody,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: every country. I've just been told this is rife in
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Southeast Asia. I don't know anything about Southeast Asia, but
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: apparently ADHD is rife there and the prisons are full
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of ADHD. I've just been told. So yeah, I think
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: this is a worldwide problem. I don't think it's just
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: England and American Australia. It's a worldwide problem that we're
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: just not recognizing difficulties and then behavior develops from those difficulties,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: and then we punish the behavior without looking at where
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the difficulties were behind that. Yeah.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we have a lot of cultural and flexibility,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: so we want to other people who don't fit in
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: the box, right, And so at school, especially here in
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the US, traditionally you separate the kids who don't learn
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: the same right or who can't easily perform and succeed.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: We were separating them for so long, and I think
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: we're still a lot of people are hanging on to
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: that mentality still.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that you were talking about too,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: that really resonated with me. With kids who are really
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: great in some subjects and not in other subjects, and
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: then we assume that they're later in that subject or
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: they don't care. Kids care, Like, let's make the assumption
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: that they're doing their best in the first place, because
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: then that will help us to dig as you're talking about. Absolutely,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: it will help us to see why is this behavior happening?
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I call it crime and punishment like parenting, Yeah,
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: crime and punishment education, then we put them in the
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: crime and punishment system, right, if we can look at
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: behavior as something other than this intentional.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I was going to say that was I was just
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: going to say intentional. But yes, yeah, it's not because,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: like you say, most kids, the vast majority, do want
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: to learn. I did. I was like a sponge. I
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: loved information, you know, I loved history, I loved learning.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: I was a good student, but not in maths. So
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: somebody should have wondered why she's a good student she
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: wants to learn. I was always way ahead with my homework,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I was a real sponge, loved learning, but
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: not in maths. So why do somebody look at that?
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: In fact, I'm a classic example. I'm sure this is
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the same. In America, they say that wildly differing grades
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: is an indication of ADHD or undiagnosed learning disorders. Well,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: I got A for my English and ungraded for my maths.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: You know, why didn't somebody go, well, hang on a minute,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, what's going on there? You know, because
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: you're average, neurotypical person will get all b's or all
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: c's or you know, they'll they'll be very very similar
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: with their grades. But when you've got this and this,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: you think, why why? Ye for me, it's so logical,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: you know, just maybe I'm mad. Maybe it's because I've
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: got these conditions. But to me, it's so logical. If
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: somebody is brilliant, brilliant, brilliant and trying really hard in
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: lots of subjects and struggling something, there's got to be
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: a reason, hasn't There isn't that logical? Yeah to me?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: It is. Yeah to me.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: My son who is super brilliant and couldn't really perform
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: well in school, and so most of the educators in
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: his life over those thirteen years assumed that he just
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: didn't want to try, he was just lazy, and because
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: if you talk to him, he's verbally fluent, like extremely
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: verbally fluent, and really smart, and so those assumptions were
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: made that he just didn't care, instead of maybe saying, oh, well,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: why why would a really bright kid not care about
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: any of this?
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Right? Is that really the situation? It's certainly in the
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: situation here. I do go into a lot of schools
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: now and train, which I love. I love training teachers
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: because on the whole they are sponges, you know, and
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: a lot of them don't know this stuff. They're not trying. No,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: I give you a classic example. I went to train
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: three junior schools, infant and junior schools in North London,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: so that's age five to twelve. And at the end
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: of it, I was selling some of my tips. I've
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: written a book for teachers, and I was selling All
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the teachers were queuing up to buy my teacher's book,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and the very last lady in the queue, she said,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I've waited to see you, she said, because I've got
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to tell you something. She said, I'm the same. I
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: was very much. I was training three at three schools.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: She said, I'm the center at this school, the one
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: you've just trained in. And she said number one, me
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: and my two daughters have got dyslexia, and I've now
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: just realized we're all ADHD. So thank you for that.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I said, you don't just have dyslexia, it's come from
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: twhere And she said, But second, more importantly, she said,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: I've had Senko so special educational needs coordinator training for
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: twenty years. And she said, all the stuff you've just
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: taught us in the last two and a half hours,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I've never ever been trained in any of that in
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: twenty years. And afterwards, when I got home, I was
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: thinking and I missed a trick there, because I should
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: have actually said to her, what have they been training
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: you then for twenty years you know about ADHD? What
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: have they've been I didn't think. I was so exhausted,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: and she was the last of a very long view,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: you know. But when I got home, I thought, what
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: have they been training her? Then? Have they been training that?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: It's just hyperactivity and distraction. That's what a lot of
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: teachers know, you know. They know the hyperactivity and they
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: know the distraction, and they possibly know about inattention. They
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: don't know about the rest. And in my training, I
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: massively include all the different ways ADHD brains think, you know.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: So it's the thing if they don't understand how we
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: think that we won't everything our own way, that we
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: always think we're best. We have tons and tons of
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: issues like me and my severe distraxia doesn't stop me
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: thinking I know best, you know, wanting everything in my
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: own way. The way you talk to an ADHD person,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: for example, questions rather than do that, you know, would
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: you like to do that? Now? Would you like to
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: do it? In ten minutes? You'll get a much better
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: response if you ask a question. Teachers haven't been trained
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: how to interact with an ADHD brain. And actually, tomorrow
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I'm going to train a school who've already been trained
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: in ADHD, but they want me to train them in
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: classroom management, how to run a classroom so that it
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: works for neurotypical kids as well as it does for
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: neurodiverse And I'm thrilled I've got a whole two hours
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: to tell them. You know, how to make classes accessible
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: when you've been that child in a class, like I
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: was bored out of my brains a lot of the
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: time if it wasn't of interest to me, you know,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: bored stupid, even if it was of interest to me.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: By three courts gone hour, you know, I was looking
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: at the watching it literally go from every minute to
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: every minute, desperate to move and do something, even though
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I knew the next class was going to be exactly
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the same. I needed to get up. I need to
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: do something. So when I'm trying to teachers, I say,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: the easiest thing to do if I give teachers one
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: piece of advice at this and it's chop your one
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: hour session up into three lots of twenty minutes. I
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: do twenty minutes of learning, twenty minutes of watching a
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: video on the subject, and twenty minutes of a quiz
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: at the end, because with the prize, even if that
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: prize is only getting out the door first, so you're
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: in the first in the queue for lunch doesn't have
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to cost anything. But you know, if you do sort
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: of twenty minutes of teaching and then a video or
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: something stimulating that they can watch, you know, YouTube whatever
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of it, and then a quiz that those ADHD kids
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: are going to be on that because they want to win. Yeah,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So automatically they know if there's a quiz at the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: end of it, Okay, I'll concentrate on this because I
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: might get something for free, they'll concentrate. And also if
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: it chops and change every twenty minutes, and they're much
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: less likely to get bored, especially if they know at
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: the beginning, you know, right, today's session chopped into three sections.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: First of all, we're going to do this, Then we're
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: going to do it straight away. The add break calms
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: down because like, oh, I've only got to do this
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: for twenty minutes. Then we're changing, you know, and also
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: put a quiz at the end. No ADHD child wants
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: to lose the quiz. You know, they are going to
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: concentrate much more and taking much more of that information
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: if they know there's a reason for it that the
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: other thing teachers don't understand. We need a reason. So
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: if you say there's going to be a quiz and
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: there is a prize, it's only a small one, but
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: there is a prize. Watch every ADHD kid suddenly be
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: attentive and the neurotypicals doesn't damage them at all, doesn't
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: damage anybody that you know them too. Yeah, it's some
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: for them too. Yeah, they'll enjoy it too. So it's
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: very easy to change classes into neurodiverse friendly classes if
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: you just know how the ADHD brain thinks and what
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it needs. The other thing I would say to teach
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: is my second best bit of advice is get them
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: up and moving. So if you need any handouts given,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: or you need homework handing out, or you need somebody
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: to run to the head master's office to pick up
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: a brochure, use the ADHD kid, you know, get them up,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: get them moving, get them helping. Also, because we have
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: extra compassion, so ADHD kids love helping, you know, helping
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: the teacher. Oh, I really really need you to do this.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I forgot to get this from a staffroom.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Can you run up to level two. People love to
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: do that. Yes, miss, they'll be off. You know, it's
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: just helping teachers understand how ADHD brains work and also
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: how ASD brains work, which is slightly different. And also
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of them have got both. Obviously that's whey,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that gets really interesting. But once teachers know this, they're like, oh,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I get it. And a lot of teachers say, oh,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I've already worked that. I've already worked it out. You know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I've worked out how to talk to him her. I've
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: worked out. I can't tell them what to do. But
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: if I I've had teachers say this to me genuinely,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: you know, I've worked out if I ask them what
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: to do goes down a lot better than telling so
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I ask, I give options. You know, some teachers have
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: got that already, a lot haven't. And when you tell them,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, thank god, thank god. Because again, teachers,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: like you said, most children want to learn. Most teachers
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: are absolutely lovely. They've gone into that industry not for
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: the money. They've gone in it to help people. They
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: want to help people learn. And when you give them
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: these tools, very little tools, just how to speak to me.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: The Commission and how to keep them, you know, attentive,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: how to not get them distracted, all the little things
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: about where they sit in the classroom and all that
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Teachers are thrilled because suddenly they've got
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: the tools to help these kids. And for me, that's
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: where it starts. It doesn't start with parents because a
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: lot of the parents, I've got these conditions themselves, so
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: they think that the child is completely normal because they
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: talk incessantly, they interrupt all the time. You know, they're overweight,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: they're so a lot. Often the parents can't see it
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: because it's massively hereditary. So often the parents cannot see it.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: It's up to the teachers to see it. Because the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: teachers can see in a class of thirty, which three
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: are the ones that never sit down or always talking,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: always doodling. Teacher can spot there because they will stand
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: out amongst the neurotypicals. So I always go to parents
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a lot about parents beat themselves up for not having
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: noticed their child, and I always say, don't because you know,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: you're not trained in anything to do this, and you've
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: just dealt with what was born, and you've brought this
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: child up the best way you can. You're not really
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: trained to spot it, but teachers should be, and teaching assistance,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: everybody working in school should be trying to spot these
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: conditions in kids.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: I firmly believe, yeah, at least to flag them and say,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: you know, I think we need to look closer at
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: this student and how they learn, right, at least just
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: to be able to say there must be something going
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: on here. Recognizing that there's something going on as a
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: great first step in getting there.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Can I give you one example of a yeah, tragic
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: example of that. A twenty nine year old boy who'd
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: been in prison fifteen times. And when this is cutting
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: an exceptionally long story into bullet points, you've been in
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: prison fifteen times. When he was arrested again, I managed
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: to get hold of him, got in diagnosed ADHD, and
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: then when we were talking about it with his mother,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: it turned out he'd got dysgraphia. So when he was younger,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: his mom said to me, he said, oh my god,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: she said, is this When he was doing his homework,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: he would walk round and round and round the dining
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: table and wouldn't sit still, and he would tell me
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: all the answers and I'd have to write them down. Yeah,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and I said, yes, that's dysgraphia, you know. And that
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: boy actually when we went to them to the psychiatrist,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: and he had been in prison fifteen times, even arrested
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: five hundred times, convicted fifty three times, and in prison
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: fifteen times. We got him diagnosed and medicated. It's not
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: commct to crisis. Must have been out now about five years.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: You know, works full time, family, all the rest of it.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: But nobody had picked up. And as I said, bless
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: his mum's heart, she had known that he'd got all
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the information in his head, but he couldn't write it down,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: so she'd was written it down for him while he
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: very hyperactive, had done circles of the dining table because
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: he couldn't sit still. And yet you pick that up classically.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Even his brother, wait for this, his brother, when I
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: managed to get him diagnosed as well, he'd only ever
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: been to school in the mornings. And I said, why
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: do you only ever go to school in the mornings?
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: He said, because sit down. I couldn't sit down. I
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: could only sit down for a morning. And nobody worked
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: out in all those years why he could only sit
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: down in the for a morning. And after that he
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: was gone. He exploded, he had to get out of there,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, nobody thought. Nobody thought to wonder
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: why until he was arrested with his brother and I
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: was like, I want to see your brother. When I've
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: met the fifteen times in prison one, I was like, please,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I want to see your brother. And we got the
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: brother diagnosed with ADHD as well. Crazy. Yeah, why did
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: nobody dig? Why didn't they dig and find out why? Mad?
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Absolute madness? And it's costing us in England a fortune
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: to keep all these people in prison. I'm absolutely sure
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: it's theme in America and it's absolutely a same in Australia.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: You know, it's crazy. These people don't need to be
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: in prison. What they need to be is assessed and
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: diagnosed and medicated.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: It's so simple and accepted and seen and understood.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one. Yeah, it takes a long time sometimes,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: but it didn't me. You know, I was I was
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: on it. I was cooling it. I knew everything about ADHD.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I'd buy about week one. I read everything I could
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: some people firstally people who've been in prison fifteen times.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Took him a very long time to forgive himself. You know,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: he kept saying I'm not looking for an excuse. I'm
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: not looking for and we said, it's not an excuse,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: it's the reason why you did this. You kept doing
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the same thing over and over again. Get the rested
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: for it. He beat himself up spectactular. I always say,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: don't beat people up in prison, don't put them down,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: because they beat themselves up expectacularly well themselves. Most people
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: in prison hate themselves, you know, because they don't know
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: why they do what they do. They've got undiagnosed conditions,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and they've despared of themselves. A lot have despaired. So
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: when I was working in the prison as a counselor,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of it was about building up self esteem,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: you know, saying you're not a bad person. You've done
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: some daft, stupid things that have got you in here.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: That doesn't make you a bad person. It actually makes
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: you a person who's been let down by the education system,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: who hasn't picked up that you've got all these conditions,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: which is just it's sad and it makes me angry
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: at the same time. You know, it's such a simple
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: thing to change and do, but there are too many
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: PEO people who think, oh, they're bad, you know, lock
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: them up, throw away the key. They don't deserve to
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: be out in society, and it's so wrong. My next
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: book coming out is called The Prison Counselor, and it's
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: all about my time counseling in the prisons, which of
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: course was counseling ADHD person after ADHD person after ADHD person.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: So I'm hoping it will blow this wide apart and
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: that we can start to stop this school to prison
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: pipeline because it's Choco block with neurodiversity. Yeah, Choco block. Yeah,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I agree with all of it.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Percent It drives me crazy when I enjoy consuming true
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: crime and documentaries like that and stuff, and every time
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I'm like, we failed this person, We've failed them. They
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: didn't fail us. We failed them if we could have
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: just helped.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: That's so true. I'm the same. I watch every crime documentary,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: anything about prisons, anything about probation, and nearly every time
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, you're screaming ADHD. Why has
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: nobody picked it's not And I have to say it's
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: the same with women. I don't know what your percentages are,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: but in England only four percent of our prison population
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: is female. Very, very small. But the females I've met
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: out of prison and the females that I've seen on
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: television in documentaries, there's just as much ADHD there. In fact,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: one of my therapists who works for me, she was
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: a prison officer in a female prison for twenty years,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: and she says to me, is exactly the same percentages
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: in female prison SRA. It's nearly all of them, you know,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: it's nearly all of them. And our pilots are showing well,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: in the excess of eighty percent, somewhere between eighteen and
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: ninety percent in prison probation, your police, it's all showing
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: over eighty percent and neurodiverse, and that's not acceptable. I
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: always say, you know, in the Victorian times, we put
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: these people in lunatic asylums and call them lunatics. Now
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: we put them in prisons and call them prisoners. It's
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: no different. There's a saying whether they're sayings are the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: same in America, but there's a saying in the UK.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: So the prison system is our biggest psychiatric hospital, and
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: that's true. It's totally true here too. There is so
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: much mental health issues in the prison. It's outrageous. When
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I was working there, you know, I would see some
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: people that I would call sort of seriously disturbed, you know,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: people that were hallucinating, people that were having literally seeing things,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: being told to cut their own heads off, you know,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: very very seriously mentally unwell people. And I think, what
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: in God's name are you doing in here? You know
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: you need to be in some sort of psychiatric care.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: But no, they're in prison because they've done something stupid. Therefore,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: lock them up, throw away the key, and all that
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: does is make their mental health much worse. And we
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: have a terrible problem in this country with suicides in prison.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: We have a big problem with it. And I would
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: lay a pound or a penny that nearly all, if
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: not all, of those people are ADHD. Yeah, it's so
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: it's tragic. I don't know if you have it as well,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: but we definitely have a massive self harm problem and
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: a massive suicide problem in prisons. And the answer to
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: that ADHD assess diagnosed, medicate those that need it and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: those that aren't. You know, yep, they need different sort
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: of care for the ADHD ones. It's very easy. So
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I've been shouting since twenty sixteen I'm getting a bit hoarse.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: But the good thing is in this country if people
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: are listening, and the people that are listening most of
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: the police, which is wonderful, amazing. We're focusing on the
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: police because if they can catch them very young when
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: they first go into a police station, job done. You know,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: we don't need to worry about the prisons because they've
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: been caught when they were nine and diagnosed and medicated
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: then helped. So yeah, so that's what I mainly do.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: That's my introduction to who I am. That's what I do. Yeah,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I do it all day long, every day long, and
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I'm passionate about it.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, clearly passionate about it. But we need that so much.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: We need people who are willing to slug through the
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: resistance and understanding this and doing something about it. Will
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: you tell everybody where they can find you, where they
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: can learn more from you, maybe where they can jump
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: on the bandwagon and help with us and help.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. The easiest way to do it is to go
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: onto my website, which is Sarah Templeton dot org dot UK.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: That's the easiest one. That will then lead you to
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the two other websites. One is where all our therapists
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: are and one is about all the charitable work we're doing.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: So the charity is called ADHD Liberty. It's all about
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: keeping people free from the criminal justice system and also
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: free from addiction. You know, we're very, very hot on
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: the connection with addiction and ADHD because we've got rehabs
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: over here who still don't believe in ADHD. So people
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: with ADHD are going into rehabs and being told ADHD
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: is a childhood behavioral disorder. You're twenty five, You're just
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: a bad person who's an addict. You know, Hello, why
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: aren't these people trained in it? Some are got to
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: tell you know, some are great, but a lot for not.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: So yes, my websites and then I've written three books
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: and my fourth one, as I say, is coming out
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: in April, which is called The Present Counselor. So that
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: is pleased buy that because I want that one to
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: be the one that blows the lid off all of this.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: But my other three books are on Amazon an eBay,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: So if you just look from my name on Amazon,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: you'll find I've written one for parenting young young children,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: one for parenting teenagers, and one for teachers. They're all
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: on Amazon or eBay, or you can actually order them
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: in bookshops as well if they're not in a bookshop.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll link all of that up for people too
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: in the show notes.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Bless you. Yeah, anybody who wants to get involved, I
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: must say, you know, in America, please, if you're if
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: you're working in the criminal justice them in any any arena,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: any part of it, please get in touch with us
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: because in England we've got individual probations doing pilots and
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: it's that sort of information that we can then use
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to leaver you know, governments to saying look, this is unacceptable.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: So if there's anybody working in any of those areas probation, police,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: youth offending, homelessness or addiction in America, please get in
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: touch with me because I would love you to do
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: pilots and let's start changing it in America as well.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah, So if you want to connect
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: with Sarah, you can go to the show notes and
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: I will have all of those links there for you.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: It is parenting ADHD Autism dot Com slash two nine
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: EID for episode two hundred and ninety eight. Thank you
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: for the work that you're doing. I'm so happy that
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: the criminal justice system is starting to be open to
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: having these conversations. Looking at this, I think huge sweeping
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: change is what we need, but it has to start
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: with little bits, little steps, right, and you're you're succeeding
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: at that, and that's amazing.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Evidence is what people want and so hence we're doing
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: all the pilots with you know, their figures and saying
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: this is what the figures are. Come on, wake up. Yeah,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: but they are waking up. We're waking up in the UK,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: not not everywhere, but we're pushing so hard. There are
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: so many people, not just me, pushing to get this,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: you know change. But yes, it's a worldwide problem, a
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: real worldwide problem, and I don't believe it's any different
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: in any country. I'm sure there's the same amount of
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: ADHD everywhere.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh absolutely, yeah. Well, thank you again for sharing
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: some of your time and the work that you're doing
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and your passion with us.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Great pleasure.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I know that it will change some hearts and minds
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: and make an impact, and that's why we do what
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: we do. Make an impact.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. If I can change people's minds, people
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: who think that ADHD is just a behavioral thing, and
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: you just need to behave yourself and act like a
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: neurotypical that's my main thing. You know, it's not a
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: behavioral thing. We are born with a different brain and
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: we have just as right to be our authentic selves
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: as everybody else. So this trying to knock the ADHD
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: out of people really annoys me. You know, there are
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: some people who think we're just we don't want it
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: in our families, so we're not going to get them diagnosed.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: It doesn't go a well. You know, you just have
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to accept that this is the way this person is,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: and that's okay. We're no different, you know, we're not
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: less than we're up more than we're exactly the same.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: We just all wired a bit differently, you know. Yeah,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: and we've got the right to be ourselves as much
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: as everybody else. And that's what I'm very passionate about
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: people understanding we shouldn't have to change to suit other people. No.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Love that no, And I think that's a great place
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: to end, and I will see everybody on the next episode.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Take good care.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share and don't
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com and at The
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Behavior Revolution dot com.