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Know When to Shut Up, Lesley Vogel · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Ken: Welcome to Neutral Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey Ken. Ken: So what's new? Lisa: Huh, you know. so Hayden Panettiere's mom, Lesley has decided to go on a media tour. she's trying to salvage her reputation. we talked about the press letter that she sent out when her daughter died that was very we say heartless and cold, I mean so apparently she got a lot of shit for that. So what do you do when you get a lot of shit for being called cold and heartless and a shitty mom? You go in a press store to show that you're not a shitty mom. So anyway, so sh literally this morning she was on Good Morning America, which I was like, what? Ken: I was like, Yippee. Good morning to us. Lisa: Good yeah, good morning. my god. And she's there and she's like her face is made up, right? And do you remember Tammy Fei Baker? Back in the Ken: Yes, yes. That's exact man. That's that's that now okay, I was we're I was trying to get who who does she look like or what what does that look like, that get up? Lisa: she has like she looks like Crilla Deville, like Disney Evil wicked stepmom makeup Ken: not not that not the Emma Stone version because I love that one. I love Emma Stone, so not Emma Stone, Lisa: Okay, not Emma Stone, no. Ken: but yeah, maybe like the classic Ferella look. Lisa: Yeah, and she looks like the mom the mom from Tangled. Not the like the one who's like yeah. Ken: She's like it's like Disney Disney like villainness. Lisa: Yes! Yes! The br the drawn-on eyebrows that are like really thick. It was weird. my god. Ken: You're not wrong, it's like a lot of the features, I've seen I've seen pictures of her maybe ten years ago, before they had they were still like together, her and Hayden. And she looks much different now. Like something's it's Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Ken: not just age, it's not age oriented difference. Lisa: Yeah, I mean Ken: Like her lips gotten bigger, she's gotten like a really Lisa: Jak ty Ken: gnarly tan. I'm not sure what it is, but yeah. Lisa: It's if Dormat Mom had never let herself go, she's like, I'm not gonna be Pruny, so I'm gonna get a bunch of work done and then it went the other end. Ken: man, Pruny. Lisa: Yeah, she's like she went at way at the other end of Pruny McPrunerson, my Dormat Mom. Ken: Has yeah, has has Pruny said anything about this? I have I don't follow Pruni, so Lisa: On that I don't, but they feel like they would be on each other's side. Like I could see her going on dormant mom's podcast and being like, We did everything for our fucking kids. This is how they repay us. They have the they have the gall to like die and make me look bad. You know what I mean? Weird. Ken: Well well I won't even doubt it because she seems like anybody that's willing to listen, she'll like she'll jump onto their show, maybe podcast, and who knows, how long she's gonna go along with this like kind of press tour, right? Lisa: Yeah, I mean we could literally be talking about this for weeks because she loves the camera. so she's being interviewed for Good Morning America. And I when I texted you this morning, I'm like, Ken, we need to watch this. And then I saw it on YouTube because I didn't get to watch it like in time. And they're asking her the interview, I just forget the name. It's like something about Hayden and she's pretending to cry. Like her her eyes you could see them welling up, it's like and then but the tears never come out. Ever. But then she Ken: Yeah, and and th and then I remember, she was an actress before, so she's probably going on this kind of like method where she's trying to cry, right? Lisa: Well and then and the weird thing is that she's wiping away a tear from her cheek with her f with her hand, but there was no tear. So I'm like, you're not wiping away anything, but it she's like going through the emotions. It it reminded me because I just finished Hayden's memoir, and she talked about like her mom actually taught her how to cry on cue. So I think of something that makes you sad, you know, very method acting. So you would think Leslie being her acting instructor would have but then again, you know what? It made me realize, this is why she didn't make it as an actress, because her acting is not that believable. Like it Ken: It's like y they like they knock her while she's down, I guess. She's already Lisa: Yeah. Ken: not like a been an active actress for quite a while, so Lisa: Yeah, she's she's such a horrible person, like I'm not afraid to talk shit, you know, and shade her. And then like the first thing she does, the very first thing she does, it's not like, you know, thank you for bringing me on. Usually the guests are like the first thing is like, this is a message to the haters. Like this is her priorities, okay? It tells you everything about her priorities. She's like, you have no right to tell me how to mourn the loss of my second child. You know, very defensive. It's like, so this is why you're here. You're just you're the you got attacked and now you're attacking back. Like Ken: Yeah. Lisa: you can see the narcissistic rage. it's not like, you know, I'm here to clear some things up, you know, everyone mourns differently. Well she did say, everyone mourns differently, which is totally valid. She can mourn, you know, that she she claims that she felt really numb. Again, valid. I it's probably true, You know, someone close to you passes away. You it Ken: Yeah, that is that's that's perfectly valid. but I didn't go on a press tour like directly afterwards. Like, I had my godsister and my aunt pass away literally within two months of each other. And I'm like, I did feel numb. You you do Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: feel like it's it's things in your life just don't feel the same anymore and you kind of are Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: in it's it's almost like a when they say people are in shock, I like that was I think that was the closest thing to a shock and like numbness. But I didn't go on a press tour immediately. Like, how many days has this been? It hasn't been that long. It's been like a week, right? Since Hayden passed. Lisa: Yeah, about a week. Ken: Yeah, it's only been a week. So of course you feel numb, but not everybody just goes on like a press tour right afterwards and seemingly trying to set the record straight. It almost makes her seem like she's it makes her look really bad. I just don't know what it is. It just you know yeah. Yeah. Lisa: No, it totally backfired. Ken: Well it it's I think the I'm not sure if she she obviously doesn't have publicist She obviously doesn't have anybody telling her as like maybe you shouldn't do this. It doesn't look like very good optics anyway, right? But sh knowing her, she Lisa: She must not. Ken: probably like she's probably like, I don't I don't care. I n I know how I'm I know I think she has she's that's like overconfidence of herself, right? Lisa: Yeah, I could see even if she did have a publicist and a manager and all that, she'd be there'd be like, Okay, you know, you say that how much you loved her and you'll miss her. She's like, No, I got this. Like, no, but you might wanna no, I got this. She's that type, and I could see that. I literally just finished reading her memoir, and in the memoir, the second to last Chapter is a chapter about how Hayden, she was no contact with her mom for a long time. But what made her break that contact was that her dad called her and told her, you know, your brother Jansen, they found him dead in his apartment. his friend found him in the in the chair, he had a comforter over him. and she said like he was Telling this over the phone, telling his daughter over the phone. And he was he broke down. He was so distraught that he was just uncontrollable. And she was she was distraught as well, but then he, the dad asked her, Can you tell mom? Because mom apparently didn't know. And he's like, I can't. I'm just too distraught. And she's like, she broke no contact, you know. just to tell her mom the news, the horrible news and so she calls her mom. Hayden calls Leslie to tell her and guess what Leslie's reaction is? Ken: What? Lisa: She it was just Ken: What? Lisa: quiet, just quiet for a few seconds, and then she goes, I gotta go. I have to make some phone calls. That was her reaction, which is she's probably stunned. so I it it's it that it does track with what she said about her being numb. And I think that's probably It's true. I don't think she's lying about that. The fact that it just takes a while to process. Especially when you get information, something like that, when someone passes away, it y you're like, wait, what? Your b your brain can't process it that fast. So you're just and when you finally do, you go, my God. And so I don't think she's lying about that. I but I think there's also a part of her that's just not right. You know, th there is it's just something Ken: Yeah. Lisa: off and people notice it. And did you notice the part where the interviewer asks Leslie about Hayden, like their relationship being strained? And Leslie goes, like, Well, Caden had a very happy childhood. It wasn't till she was like Ken: Yeah. Lisa: sixteen, maybe seventeen, that our relationship started to get more strained. You notice that? Ken: Yeah, yeah, I noticed that part. Lisa: And I was like Yes. It very it actually that actually tracks with narcissistic parents because Hayden talked about the meshment, the mom and her basically they were together all the time. Well they were on the set, like since she was literally a baby. they were super, super enmeshed, but you know, normal development of a teenager is to want to individuate, hyper-individuate. In fact, you know, you j you don't even like, I don't know if you remember, Ken, when you were a teenager, you're like, I don't want to be seen in public with my parents. yeah. Ken: Yeah, th that that's quite common, yeah. Late teenagers is usually that's usually when it starts kicking in. Lisa: Yeah, but it were you ever like the kid who was like, can you drop me off a couple of blocks away so they don't see me tapping you? Ken: Not necess not necessarily, but it's like you know what it is? It's like your dad hugging you in public. It's it's like it's just something really like it's I don't know what it is. It's just embarrassing at that point. It's it's it's always Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: at that age. In the moment it you just feel the embarrassment, but you see it like maybe a couple of years down the road, you're like, that was a nice moment. I don't know why I acted that way. But it's natural to be a kid Lisa: Yeah. Ken: and act that way. Lisa: Yeah, I mean 'cause you're figuring your self out, you know, your own separate you know, it's super totally normal, but to her, she f probably found found it offensive. It's like, what do you mean? and that's when things got started to get more strained. So another thing that was really interesting, did you they asked her about the moment where she cayden fires her as her manager Ken: Yeah. Lisa: and the whole the you owe me thing? She said that never happened. She said, Ken: Well Lisa: it was a brief moment. She did, I mean, admit that it was. And they kept in really fast, but she's like, I didn't say anything, and I just left, or something like that. Ken: I was found out as odd, is like she didn't they didn't talk about it afterwards. I feel like that's that's not like a thing that would have not they would have not discussed. I feel like there's more to that, right? Lisa: Maybe. I think a that after that happened, I Hayden said that the that's when their relationship basically it was almost non existent because she just wanted to have like a manager client kind of relationship, Leslie. Whereas, you know, Hayden she just she just wanted her mom and her mom d obviously doesn't have that capability to be a mom. They don't know how to connect with their own children in a way that's not transactional. Ken: Yeah, there's so much there that it's like not explained. I guess it doesn't disprove the claim that Hayden made that it was like I wanted to fire her as like a manager and wanted her to be my mom. Leslie did not refute that in that interview. so that might have still been true. So maybe she did view it as that. I don't know. It's I didn't get much from that. But a lot of the but a lot of the interview, her dialogues in the public, it has been a lot of it is she has yet to take any kind of blame or kind of any kind of even s like any self reflection, Lisa: Accountability. Ken: right? Yeah, there's no accountability for anything like that. So it Lisa: Nope. Nothing. Ken: it's very problematic, but it's also very close to how other narc narcissistic kind of like maybe like this type of like parent. manager type. It's very consistent with how this has played out. Lisa: Mm. Ken: It's by the book. This is a archetype. And she's she's playing it by the book. And you people are looking at it. And I'm thinking, like, maybe we're just looking at it and like maybe we're just hypercritical of this. No, you look at the comment section of like I was talking to you about like People magazine. I had the article up. I think a lot Lisa: And we got our Ken: of people saw it too. Like it was it was really weird. It's like very typical that just did not take any accountability for anything in in that relationship. Lisa: Yeah, I I was reading the comments too. YouTube and it was almost unanimous. It was like this is very weird, very disrespectful to her daughter. She's like, no wonder her daughter didn't have a relationship with her. Like it was people saw right through her bullets. Ken: Yeah. People people people looked at it was like I I get it. 'Cause 'cause they've seen it before. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: It's not something new, right? It's like this this archetype has been showing up left and right. And since we know more, it's like you know, you love the memoirs. it's repeating what we've already seen. Lisa: Yeah, and then she just she makes her daughter's death all about her and people did notice that. Like a lot. I mean, sure there were people who are like, let her grieve and you know, i and I was like, you know what? People don't y they don't get it. But Ken: I don't know, it's just it I I I get w what you say and I get what the people are mean by that, but I think she does she's not afforded that grace, I don't think, based on what Hayden put out there. Lisa: N no. It Ken: I I I don't think she's afforded that grace. I think sh I think a lot of it was Yeah, a lot of it is she unless she took accountability for something, I don't think this is anything new to the dialogue that will make her look good at all. Lisa: Think about it, two of her children have passed. I mean, you know, her younger brother had i issues with drugs, And Hayden herself had addiction issues mostly with alcohol. And two of your kids have died because of their own mental health struggles. You need to take accountability. That is on you as a parent. That is an indictment of your parenting. If but to her it's just like I'm just the grieving mom and you know and and she's very she's pointing fingers and I noticed that too with a other she did this hour-long interview with the Daily Mail and she the whole time she's just she's pointing fingers, especially at the ex-boyfriend Brian. Yes, he's a horrible person. He was very abusive to Hayden, but yeah, she was very vulnerable and she got targeted by people who were predators. that lady who basically pimped her out in the yacht, the ex-boyfriend who was abusive, she should have been there as a mom to protect her child. Who who cares if your child is 18, 19, 50, 100? If my child is in danger, I'm gonna be there to protect them. And the fact that she wasn't there, she was vulnerable to them. And Ken: Yeah, it brings up so many questions. It's like where is she through all these big moments of Hayden's life that she that's in the memoir? I doubt that Hayden just like omitted a lot of that. My mom was there, but you know Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I just didn't want to mention it. I feel like she would have mentioned it. Lisa: You know what, maybe y take some fucking accountability. Say it would it look better if she said, you know what? I messed up as a parent. If I could go back in time, I would have been there more as a mom, not treated her like a client. It would she need for emotional needs. You know, I took care of her financial Ken: Yeah. Lisa: needs, but that was it. I could it Ken: But that that that's meaning that you're actually self aware of yourself and you're willing to take fall, right? She doesn't have that. Lisa: No. Yeah Yeah, and that w Right. And the fact that people see right through it too is so interesting. Ken: And the thing is, it's like, she's she thinks she's like the person like she's a hero of this story, right? I was like, no, you're not. It's like the more you talk, the more it looks badly on yourself. People are just seeing someone that's very unapologetic. Which was true, right? She was ap apologetic. Like she j she just like, sorry, sorry, but I'm grieving, I'm gonna knock back at the haters. It's like Kinda what kind of middle aged lady talks about talks like that? Lisa: You're grieving, so the first thing you do is like this is for the haters. You're like, Okay, yeah. Ken: Well yeah, we've mentioned that's like who who I'm thinking the two that she probably was mentioning was probably Gail King, who laid into her pretty deeply. and maybe Megan Kelly, but Megan Kelly Lisa: I saw that. Yep. Ken: is like some Megan Kelly is I don't know if she's just doing it for clicks or anything like that. She says anything to make it make make like a splash. So But the thing is it's like, okay, are you on like a like you You y you know what it is? I'm like, you're supposed to be a middle-aged lady. You're not supposed to be playing the, you know, Facebook war with someone, right? I Lisa: Ha ha ha. Ken: would think you'll be more mature than most of right? But I was Lisa: Yeah. Ken: wrong. It's y clap back at the haters was like, y seriously? That's your that's Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Ken: your priority now to go on these like hour-long like maybe like like interviews and stuff like that? Who knows what she's gonna be on the docket for next next week, right? That's like what kind of podcast is she going on? Is j is Joe Rogan a booker? I don't know. Lisa: my god, can you imagine she goes on the Joe Brogan podcast? my god. Ken: my gosh, it's like but but not even Joe Rogan, let's say it's like some other podcast that's maybe more suited to what kind of topic that she's gonna talk about, right? maybe some celebrity oriented podcast, maybe Lisa: I c yeah, definitely see her doormat mum. Ken: It c it could happen. I'll like I won't say that's out of the question. It's like she's she has a pretty big following Lisa: Yeah, it could happen. I could totally see that. Ken: on TikTok, so Lisa: Yeah. Other yeah. narcissistic moms, they just think they're the they're the victims and it it makes sense because even Hayden said it's like she knew she was gonna she would only get love from her mom based on how she would make her mom look. And now it's like even in death, Hayden made her look bad, so now she has to like go on a a war path against the haters because of how bad it makes her look. Like it it's obviously like the biggest thing for her is how she looks versus like, who gives a fuck? Your kids are dead You know, just have some fucking self reflection. But no, narcissists will never do that. And Ken: I it just it just it just boggles the mind. It's like, does she really think that this makes her look good? Lisa: and you read the the the highlights of the Daily Mail article that she did, hour long interview. my god. Ken: Yes, yes. it's it W It it's why? Just shut up, lady Seriously Lisa: The more she talks, the more she looks. I don't think she realizes though. Ken: Well a lot of it is like s it it's that old adage, my daughter was fine until she met so and so and brainwashed my daughter. Lisa: Yeah. Again, finger pointing. Ken: Yeah. Lisa: it I mean it yeah, it's true. I she's not running. Ken: Sure, sure. He was yeah, the ex-boyfriend sure was abusive. I think she even s almost had a restraining order against him when during her book tour. Lisa: She did. Ken: So so she was aware. She was aware. It's but who knows? recording as at a time, we don't know what Brian might have done or what might have influenced her decisions up up until that point. So we don't know. Watch, it's just like we c we we might have ideas, but who knows what might have happened, but Lisa: The toxicology is supposed to come out sometime soon. So i everyone's just s suspecting an overdose, which is Ken: Yeah. Lisa: who knows. But he was there. There's some like some sketchy things out with him and his brother when they found her. They but that's besides the point, right? Ken: Well, yeah, she she also blamed them for his like, well, how c you you could possibly know when someone is dying if they're having an episode, right? If she was having a episode, Hayden, that he didn't wake up for that. It's like, well, that's not true. That's not true. Like Lisa: Yeah. You were literally sleeping next to Ken: that was like, I recently had you know, a friend's husband passed away and they you don't know because one moment he was fine, it was like I'm not feeling well, and then the next moment you wake up in the morning and he's g found dead. That's really what happens. When they peop when people say they find their loved ones like passed out on the floor or dead in their sleep, this is what they're talking about. To even say that, I was like, yeah, I can't believe he didn't wake up for that. I was like, That's very odd that you said that. A lot of the things she said was very odd, right? Lisa: You know what I think? I'm gonna call bullshit on something that she said because I thought it was really dumb. Okay. I even wrote it down because I was like. Ken: I think I know what you're gonna mention. Lisa: Okay. So she's like they asked her, like, you put your daughter into show business when she was starting when she was like eight months. She goes, I only did that because I wanted to put money into her college fund. I just never expected her to be like a professional actor. I was like bullshit. Ken: I knew you were gonna mention that because I was like I was gonna bring it up because this is like I knew that you were gonna wanna talk about this, but She's like, yeah, Lisa: Yeah, I'm so Ken: I thought I th I thought my daughter I'm just she's gonna get a little like, you know, n little nice nest egg and stuff like that, and you know, she's gonna have money for college and that'll be great, she'll be set for life. Lisa: huh. Yeah. Ken: That's not believable at all. She was like, Well her well Caden really liked it, so she kept going. I'm like, sure, sure. That's really how it went, right? I can just Lisa: huh. Ken: imagine if Hayden just went up to her and like, I want to quit, mom. Like hell you're gonna quit. Lisa: sh she's probably be too scared to to say that she w if she didn't enjoy it. it's funny because I was thinking like Ken: Okay, if you're a Hayden during that time, if you're Hayden during a time, you of course would not say that To your mother, because you know she's just how just how she is, right? To even say that Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you're good you're mom, you're fired. That was that probably took a lot. But she's probably like, Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ken: you know what? Doing well on heroes. Nashville would be probably many years away from that point. Another hit show she had. but there was like movies projects here and there in between. And she's probably thinking at that time, it's like, well, if I become self sufficient, then I won't be afraid of my mom anymore. I could just cut her off totally, right? If it doesn't go well. And that's probably her plan at that point. Make it big, make this into a living, and then you don't have to worry about your mom like ever like cutting you off from things. Lisa: Yeah. it's funny 'cause I'm like I wouldn't be surprised if Leslie had gone in to say like actually Hayden she sh she actually like she she drove herself to the auditions when she was eight. I mean eight months old. When yeah. yeah. She Ken: She was really enjoying it as an eighth month old. Like she kept laughing. She really enjoyed it. Lisa: She actually coerced me into taking her to auditions at eight months old. I mean, yeah, like that level of delusion. Like this blady's delusional. She does not live What the hell? Ken: Yeah, especially how Hayden, has mentioned before, like her growing up, like she didn't like the fact Lisa: Change. Ken: that she was in the spotlight. Like she was not that type of person. And I've always heard of there have been people that have been performers, music usually musicians and maybe actors, and they have stage fright or they're just very introverted. So for a lot of them, this is like the wrong career choice, right? But let's say you're just good at it, but you just have to somehow just cope with it, I'm thinking that a lot of it her like ill like Well, I don't even know what to say it. A lot of her misgivings about the industry and stuff like that is that she does have this ki kind of anxiety to perform. I think she had performance anxiety. That's really think that's what it was. Lisa: She did say that in the book, that she would get, you know, attacks and Ken: Yeah, the butter the butterflies, right? But it's like she try to use that as, you know, excitement, use that as energy. And really, you know, lock knock it out of the park. I've I've heard athletes doing that. Those like, well, we can't let the you know adrenaline rush and the butterflies prevent you from performing. And some do it better than others. And a lot of sports psychologists, and you know, pr that's probably you know, acting psychologists too, have made a lot of money to kind of train an athlete or an actor or a musician to kind of get over that. But when you're anxious all the time like that, it's it's a lot of strain on your body. It's just you by the end of the day, I remember being I I'm I'm diagnosed with like general anxiety disorder, so it's not too bad. I have like social anxiety, but it doesn't prevent me from doing any of the things I do, right? Like we still go out, right? Me and Lisa you know, I try to go to places with a lot of people. It sometimes it makes me really nervous, really fidgety, but it doesn't stop your experience. Like you you don't want to be like agoraphobic, but I could understand how sh how it was for her just dealing with that. And it's probably a we don't think about that. It's like it's probably a strain on her to even Like two what twenty episodes of a show each season. It's like every day you just have that anxiety. The only way it goes away was maybe drugs or just going numb totally. Lisa: The interview with the just Jared highlights. so you w when you read the article where she was interviewed, what stood out to you also? Ken: I think that was the biggest part. It's like that that what we talked about at first was the biggest part. I looked at it. It's and it's just like, yeah, she was she was a willing participant in this career of hers. Cause, you know, every little kid just, you know, I want to be an actress for the rest of my life, just like that. I mean, I think people like little kids like the concept of it, right? But it's it's a lot of hard work. I I don't believe that she that Hayden was so like on board that she w didn't try to like put up a fight. That's I d I really don't believe that. Because she's she's mentioned before, she's been in what elementary school and seemingly people have like a bad perception of her, right? Just for being a celebrity. She knew that as a at a very young age. As a kid, I doubt that she she had that mentality to be like, you know what, these are just my haters. My elementary school teacher is my hater. I don't give a crap about that. I don't think she thought like that. So I think that was just I was like, Leslie, who are you lying to? That that you're seriously, like who who are you lying to to say that hey, she really wanted this, right? I just thought that she was gonna do it to a certain age, and then she's gonna have a nice little nest egg or just money for school. You're the mom at that point. You could pull her out at any time, right? And how come we didn't hear about it that she wanted to stop her or anything like that? So I think she's full of shit. College fund my butt. It's really what it is. Call college fund my butt. It's I'm pretty sure Yeah, if they were so enmeshed, there's no way I believe that the mother was okay or on board with her quitting. Lisa: No, I mean this was her mom's dream to be an actress. So she was completely living vicariously through her daughter. A hundred percent. Ken: Yeah, her yeah, because her daughter at sixteen was more successful than she ever was. Lisa: Yeah, and to f for her to say like, this was just extra money for college Ken: I mean Good sentiment Lisa: Yeah. Ken: to have. That's a that's a good lie to tell herself, I guess. Lisa: I I don't even know if she even believes it. Ken: She doesn't believe it. I think a lot of the stuff she said, like in her interviews, especially in the highlights of Just Jarrett, for the Daily Mail, I think it's full of shit. Like a lot of the stuff. Lisa: And I think where she says where it's like this is really weird to me. She said this in the interview, like I'm not saying I'm not grieving now. I am, and I do have my moments, but the bigger picture right now is I have to stay strong. I don't have an option. And I'm like Yeah. Ken: Strong for who? That's the thing, right? Strong for who. Lisa: Usually you have to stay strong because you have other children. Like I've seen that happen. Where it's like Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: they're fighting the this pain and this grief because, you have to continue with life, but this woman she's already wealthy. She doesn't have any of their kids. What is staying strong for what? Ken: And she's broken up with her husband, so Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Ken: Who's she staying strong for? Herself? Her publicist? I don't know what who she's staying strong for. Let it all out, Lisa: I Ken: lady. Lisa: That's what really I was like, what? staying strong for what? I I just couldn't figure it out. maybe someone else YouTubers, because I know already YouTubers are there a lot of people like on TikTok and stuff, they're already making fun of that interview. W and with Good Morning America about the fake crying, especially the fake crying. Like right away people are like, This is so performative. my god. And they they're making fun of it. But this in particular, I wish like the you know those online mental health professionals? Like they'll do a deep dive into her like Leslie and I wonder what they what their opinion is about that, like what they think is in her mind. Ken: Yeah, I know. I I I wouldn't wor I wouldn't Lisa: You know, I I I don't get it. Ken: worry about that because I feel like someone is gonna analyze her body language and stuff like that. Because it's just she put it out there. She didn't have to, but she put it out there. So now people are gonna analyze it. And you know, just recently I I remember someone telling me about just how British tabloids were, right? I don't think it's as rabid to this point in America, but Could you just imagine how like the paparazzi was on like Hayden's case like during her prime, right? When she was younger? Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, she talked about that in the book. Ken: That's freaking nightmarish. And it's like I I remember reading something recently. I'm not sure what I was why I was reading that, but I was hearing that in the UK it's if you think stuff in America was bad for paparazzi, it's way worse in the UK. Like monumentally Lisa: Yeah. Ken: worse. That people have thought like well Princess Diana, that was bound to happen to someone because that's what paparazzi did. Especially in the UK. And I think in America we just only have like a low portion of that. Like people are chasing people and and at a certain point, remember remember maybe like in the early two thousand, it was really bad, right? It was really bad with the paparazzi. I don't think we hear it as much Lisa: Yeah, Hayden talked about that. Well Hayden talked about that in her book. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Like a l literally like there was a paparazzo who kicked her so they could get a reaction out of her. Ken: Yeah. Lisa: Like that that level. Ken: But yeah, the paparazzi is very like it's like animalistic. it's attention seeking kind of thing before social media was a thing, right? Who's the first person to get this image of this person's like kid or something like that, or this person this celebrity doing something really bad? And it was it was to the highest bidder, and I Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: I swear that was how TMZ made a lot of their impact in the beginning now TMZ is actually pretty legitimate news. They actually get the news before every n anybody else. But before that it was kind of more like a tabloid ish kind of like celebrity news kind of organization. But it evolved into something more, you know, more substantial that people actually refer to them for like actually like you know breaking news for celebrities. Like if someone passes away, people check with TMZ. That's it's kind of the narratives kind of change on them. But It's it's crazy because if if you think that tabloids are gonna be to be like this, and that's for a kid that's growing up like Hayden, and she's I'm pretty sure she's she's not the most stable at that point. At what point you as the mother don't address that at all, and you think it was like, yeah, my daughter wanted this? Really? Constant Lisa: just Ken: attention from grown men taking pictures of her? All the time throughout the day, throughout the night. It's it's just like no freedom whatsoever as a sixteen year old because you played a cheerleader of like superpowers. Think about that. Lisa: It so have you noticed okay. Also so Leslie also said that she was the one who went no contact with her daughter. Yeah. I and she was like, Well she blamed it was of Brian. It was like, well she wouldn't leave him and No Brian. Uh-huh. Ken: Yeah, it was a deal breaker for her, supposedly. Lisa: She just remember she she said like you can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved? she's like, I had to go to contact because I couldn't help her anymore. I can't change this pattern. I tried and I mean I didn't leave because I didn't care, or it's not because I didn't love her. I just I'm just th I put so much effort in trying to save her. I'm gonna say I'm gonna call bullshit on that too. Ken: Yeah, I I I second that bullshit. Lisa: Okay There's I think we've said bullshit more on this one episode than like all of our episodes combined. Ken: No, because she r even has to take what? Ownership of that, right? She has to commandeer that stance. she didn't she didn't cut me out. I cut her out. Well, your your daughter's dead, she can't argue that anymore, so who cares at that point who cut who out? Lisa: Yeah, but when she was alive, she said after I fired my mom, I just said, Okay, be my mom and she's like, No, she just wanted to have a client employee relationship. So Ken: I'm surprised nobody nobody addressed that with her. I guess 'cause everybody Lisa: Yeah. Ken: doesn't want it, that might be a trigger point if you try to question her about that. Lisa: Yeah, if I go into a narcissistic rage. Ken: That I I'd pay to watch that. Lisa: There was a really funny comment that I was reading that, with all the the makeup and she looks so weird, someone wrote there should have been like a jump scare warning. You know Ken: I don't know, she looked a little too tan and kinda crispy a little bit. She looked crispy. If that if that's like a if you could see if you can say like a person just looks crispy, like she looks crispy during that Lisa: Mm. Ken: interview. Lisa: weird. Ken: Golden brown like fried chicken. Lisa: It does. Ken: She did. She was like, Wow, that's like that's a very nice tan. She got that tad right before she went on television. Lisa: my god, and her hair's like all raggedy? Weird. Ken: I don't think someone of that age should have that hairstyle, but that's just me. T Lisa: my god. yeah. So should we wrap it up? Ken: Yeah, that's a d yeah, yeah. I feel like we could talk about the whole day. We're like we could just roast her on the whole She made it really easy to roast her. Lisa: yeah, we could roast her like a peanut. Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we don't wanna roast her on her like how she looks, but all the other stuff is like too easy at that point. Like my goodness. I was like and what did she hope to achieve by going on these little like interviews and stuff like that? I'm gonna tell my story. Lisa: think she really thought I think she really believed that she would it's like I'm gonna once they know my side of the story, they're gonna know. Like I'm gonna look like the victim. Cause I think she really believes that she's the victim. Like narcissistic people, they they go around making themselves the victim, even though they're our predators, perpetrators, but whatever. Ken: It's yeah, it's it it falls to a T. Like I don't wanna say like she was like a narcissistic mother, like she was just she was kind of just that archetype, but it's just lack of accountability and it's almost seemed like she's gaslighting her daughter like from the gr from beyond. Like her daughter's dead, like she's still Lisa: Like Ken: she's still on this kind of narrative, and it it doesn't seem like there's anything to stop her at this point. There's nobody to say otherwise, right? Who's left? The dad? Lisa: Yeah. yeah, it's Ken: She she's staying away from it from her. He's staying away from her. You you notice that. Lisa: Yeah, it's disgusting the way she talks about Hayden even after death. And see, lim wrapping this up, I do have to say something. we know how like society they will cut narcissistic parents a lot of slack. Way, way, way too much, you know? And you know how they always like, they tried the best they could. they weren't that bad. You only have one mom, you know, all the bullshit gaslighty shit that they tell you. With this particular situation, people have noticed this woman, they see right through her. And I am so glad it's almost unanimous that people see through her BS. I mean, I feel this is like This is literally the first time in my life where I feel like people are waking up to these toxic narcissistic parents. Like where were you like years ago? Did you not see through it? But like I guess it's better late than never. Ken: Well, I really think it's because of the saturation. as humans, we as just creatures of Earth, we love pattern recognition, right? We see things and it was like it triggers some sort of like kind of w we we're constantly predicting the outcomes of things we're looking at. And when you see something like that, you're thinking it's you madly Lisa: Yes. Ken: spot something and you look look at this as like, wait a minute, I've seen this before. And everybody just knows now because everybody's has more knowledge about all these things. The problem with that is that sometimes you you kind of label certain people, this person's a narcissist. Sometimes it's not, but she makes a very good case that she is, Leslie. She makes a very good case that she is what people think she is, Lisa: yeah. y yeah. It it people s th it's an uncanny valley kind of a feeling with her where it's like, this is not right. This is not normal. A normal mom doesn't react this way. Like how are you not talking about how much you miss her and how much it's just like it it's giving I'm sorry you feel that way. Well, you know, agree to disagree, kind of like Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: you're daughter just fucking died. This is your second child to have died. And people, I guess maybe because the fact that people, a lot of, you know, being millennials, a lot of them grow up grew up watching Heroes and maybe bring it on. one of the screen movies, like whatever, Nashville. So there there's that kind of parasocial relationship, maybe. And they feel like, wow, this is a loss, you know? Someone my age is dead. That's just crazy. there's that attachment, but like even people who have that like us who are as fans, we have this sad feel the sadness. Like her mom, who is supposed to be even closer to her, doesn't even feel a modicum of You know, she's not showing that level of natural grief. It's so weird. It's bizarre and people are calling it out. And she hates the fact that she's being called out. She hates it. You can tell. It's j Ken: yeah. Lisa: it's triggering a rage. She's like, I need to go on a media tour to to get back at the haters. That's what she's like, Ken: Yeah. Lisa: or haters. Ken: And the thing is, there is a lot of people that are actresses in the business before and they're like kinda like poking at this situation, right? And I'm not sure if you saw what Melissa Gilbert have said and Lisa: then. Ken: kind of talking about this string of actresses during this time period that have all passed away. And you s she's kinda saying that there's a problem here, right? That we don't ask about people. People that have like been child stars. This is like the next generation of child stars. And it doesn't it doesn't seem like they've escaped like the eighties child stars, right? They have their own problems now. The child stars of like that we grew up with, 'Cause 'cause Lisa: that's a good point. Ken: because remember when people were talking about child stars like Gary Coleman and stuff in the eighties, it's the problematic like upbringing that happens afterwards, right? And then we went y for years, it was like I think we got it, We I think we got the perfect. kind of way you treat a child starter to make sure they don't fall into this trap of like like a like horrific outcome. But I don't think we have. It's just a just something different, I think other people are seeing this new pattern that's happening on and it's a bummer because we're thinking, yeah, we try to as you know human beings, we try to learn from our past, right? We try not to, but we're doomed to repeat it. Right. It's probably something that is not talked about that a lot of these actresses or actors of this age are probably dealing with. Cause she wasn't the only one, It's like a group of them that passed away recently in the past what, year, year and a half. And really begs the question, what is going on? And that's that's a really that's like a question we can't answer at the moment. hopefully we do eventually. But one thing I do wanna bring up that horrifies me to think about is that I hope Vladimir doesn't let his daughter d talk to grandma because I don't know what she's gonna say to her about her mom. Lisa: That is a very good point. Ken: I hope Vladimir's just keeping his daughter off of social media. Cause she is of age, right? She's she's I think she's a preteen right now. I'm pretty sure there's people around her. Lisa: She's only eleven. Ken: Yeah, but there are probably people around her that knows that her mom is famous, right? Even your dad's famous. So it's people are probably talking and she's probably gonna have questions. And I really hope that I think I think he's I from what ha I have like heard about him, I think he would be the perfect Father to hopefully protect her from all the stuff that might be spouted about her mom, And her grandmother. Because that's gonna be out there, right? And it Lisa: Yeah. Ken: especially with the internet now, it's you could find out anything. All these kids are probably gonna tell her that. I heard the thing about your your mom and your grandmother. They had some issue. I heard your mom died from drugs or something like that. Is that true? They're gonna ask her, even if it wasn't malicious, they're gonna ask her. And I hope she will be okay, the daughter. Who knows? It's it's a devastating thing. Lisa: Yeah, you know that that could be an a whole other episode with like Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: children with narcissistic grandparents. yeah. That that exposure to toxicity, there's a lot of issues that come with that. That might be another episode actually, further down the line. just a lot of stories about that. But I think this is a good time to wrap up. you know, we're We can dedicate this episode to her daughter Kaya. I mean, I I can't imagine what she's going through. it's hard enough losing a parent, but like so much going on in the press. Who knows if like her her friends at school what they're what they're telling her what she's going through and I I just hope she's okay. And like you said, yes, that's a really good point. To expose a child to a toxic grandparent like Leslie. You at that point but I I I think from what Vlad said, he does not respect her very much. It's very Yeah. I think Ken: I I think he I think he knows. I really think he knows. He knows why. you know, you know, as fans, if we would do live wanna live that parasocial life, I was like, I wish they worked it out. Cause well, I don't know, we see pictures, especially he posted recently like the pictures of them together, all three of them. I was like, I wish they worked it out, right? But that's not how Lisa: Yeah. Ken: life is sometimes. But I think he he's very aware of how Leslie is. He's very Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: aware of how Hayden was thinking about her mother. So being aware is half of the battle, right? I think I think he'll be extra cautious. And that's a good thing. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, on that note, it's been a good talk. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: And thank you guys for listening. I know we did actually we didn't even decide to do a an episode about this, but the fact that like Leslie was just like literally this morning. Her mom was literally my god, really? Yeah. Ken: A gift that keeps on giving. It's a gift that keeps on giving. She can't she can't keep her foot out of her mouth, I don't think. She loves the sound of her voice. Lisa: The fact that like she's with the media tour, I'm like, Ken, look what this woman is doing, my God. And we're like, we have to talk about this 'cause this this is ridiculous. We we we need to put this woman we need to check her and put her on blast. This is not right. And hopefully we did that and Yeah. And but thank you guys for listening. you got something out of this and yeah, we'll hopefully we'll see you next time. Ken: Yes, this is episode twenty four of Nurtural Disasters. Yep, we made it to twenty four. Lisa: Wow. We just keep chugging it on. Ken: And today is and today is eight twenty-four, which is Kobe Day. So, you know, Kobe's no longer with us, but those are his two numbers that he wore as as part of the Lakers, so it's Kobe Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Day. And it's also episode twenty four, so that's Lisa: Wow. Ken: kinda interesting, right? Lisa: Twenty-four on the twenty-fourth. Wow. Ken: I know this is a special one. But that being said, well bye everybody. Bye Lisa. Lisa: Mm. Bye, Ken. Alright, bye everyone. take care of yourselves. Bye bye. Good night. Not goodnight. Let's get rid of that. What I said. I good night to you, Ken, not to the audience. Ken: good night to you.