Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / The Struggle for a Better Israel: Update from the Trenches | May 2026
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erez-Likhovski Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, I serve as the vice president for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ as the director of ARZA Great to be with you today. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wonderful. And this week we're going to take a look at what's going on now today, these days, Israel's democracy, talk about what's going on in the US. It won't be an easy episode. A lot of disturbing things are happening, but it's so important to talk about them and to see what we can do about them. Josh Weinberg: And before we just jump into that, Orly, I want to take a second to give our listeners a reminder that next week we will be hosting a half day of learning on Sunday, May 17th called Israel in depth. is for leaders all over the reform movement, whether in the North America or abroad. There'd be a chance to really go deep on a number of different issues. Of course, we're going to have a keynote conversation with Rachel Goldberg, Polin mother of slain hostage, Hirsch Goldberg, Polin, who has a new book out. that you will not want to miss this conversation. of course, we're so honored Orly that you get to take part in this. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's really my pleasure. I'm going to share a session with Rabbi Jonah Pesner. executive director of the Religious Action Center and together with Rabbi Lindsay Danziger and Blake Ziegler, we're going to talk about how do we talk about Israel, what can we do to organize around issues pertaining to Israel, democracy, pluralism. It's going to be really interesting. Please be there with us. Make sure to sign up and join us. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Maybe a sprinkle of social justice in there, know, we'll throw it in. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: For sure, for sure. Yes, yes, definitely. It's going to be interesting and be sure to be there with us. But before May 17th, we want to talk a little bit about the present, about the recent week. A lot of things are happening in these very, very chaotic days. We are, first of all, in the midst of this uncertainty about whether the war with Iran is going to be resumed. So every night, we're sort of every day, every morning, we're like, okay, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: We didn't have the war resumed during the night. obviously it's very, very uncertain. And it's not an easy time to be here with this uncertainty looming back pretty. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it feels like from abroad, like, you know, people are, you know, jumping on this opportunity to go out and fill the restaurants. know, was Lag Ba Omer did you do a bonfire and go sit outside or, or, or those days, you know, only for when, when kids are young and what's. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Now you know. Yeah, don't know. are, know, the Reform Movement now in Israel really said, you know, from ecological we shouldn't really set a bonfire, but, you know, think about Ba Omer from a different perspective. yeah, my younger son did go bonfire. ⁓ it's true. It's like people are like, okay, we have to do a lot of things because who knows if tomorrow, next week, in two weeks, we will be able to go out and, you run around, go sit in restaurants. So yeah, everything could change really, really, really quickly. Josh Weinberg: Okay. Yeah, I feel like Lag Ba Omer is somehow, or it might win the competition for the least observed holiday in North America. You know, especially among liberal Jews, you know, it's just not so much of a thing that people know about, but I did, did a modest, you know, my neighbors and I did a little, did a little modest bonfire in our back patio because, you know, what are you, what are you going to do? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it's true, but I think the feeling is that a lot of things are going out on fire around us. It is a feeling of a lot of chaos, especially when we're thinking about instances of violence and racism and hatred. And unfortunately, we have seen an unbelievable increase in all those in recent weeks. Josh Weinberg: Ugh. Orly Erez Likhovski: And I think one of the things that shocked Israelis and may have traveled overseas as well is the murder of Yemeni Zeleka, a 19-year-old who worked in a pizzeria, in Pizza Hut actually, on Yom Ha'atzmaut Eve. Josh Weinberg: 21. Orly Erez Likhovski: in Petah Tikva and know a few kids, teenagers came into the pizzeria and sprayed you know with a spray sort of the string spray that everybody uses on a yeah. Josh Weinberg: the silly string that people, yeah, spray on. I remember I'm at Ben Yehuda Street all the time. Right, right, right, right. And he just asked them to stop. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, he just told me, don't do it inside the restaurant because obviously it doesn't make sense. And they stopped. But then later when he finished his shift, they actually just stood and waited for him to get out of the pizzeria and stabbed him. A group of maybe 10 or even more teenagers stabbed him to death. And he died just for saying politely, please do not do it within the pizza. This was shocking even in an atmosphere that was so much violence around us it really showed how cheap life has become and how easily people can lose their lives just for a simple request for ⁓ people to act politely. actually it's, ⁓ yeah. Josh Weinberg: And of course we learned a little bit about his family and that was helping to make money and to put food on the table for his family essentially. And ⁓ siblings all looked up to him and he was really the sort of the big brother and the leader of his family. And I there were some reactions that we wanna discuss a little bit, the political scene that were really terrible. ⁓ And the way, I don't know if you saw this on the news, they played the... Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: the Mada, Magen David Adom emergency call that they made that people just left him to bleed and had, you know, someone called earlier, he could have been saved. And it was just really ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think one of the thing was actually that the teenagers, all teenagers who stabbed him the whole group was actually apprehended, which very unusual for the police, right? Because they usually just don't do anything about it. But it had a high public so they had no choice. So we hope that they're going to be, justice is going to be served. it's ⁓ just. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. I mean, it shows when they want to, they can, right? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Exactly, exactly. Just a matter of where you put your resources and whether you're actually doing your job or to serve the minister of police. I think it showed us that that's just part of the very violent reality that we're living in of complete intolerance, very violent reaction anybody saying something that you don't agree with. And I think we've... We've talked about the case of Dr. Alex Sinclair in the previous episode, which was also some kind of violence and of course the Raanana Pogrom So all of those combined to a very, very troubling reality. Josh Weinberg: Last week, yeah. you know, when this was brought to minister Ben Gvir who oversees the police, his response was so callous and just kind of brushed it off and saying, you know, what, could I put a police officer at every Like, no, that's impossible. Not to say like, my God, this is tragic thing and we have to get to the bottom of it. And you have to wonder, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, because obviously the role of the police obviously is to protect the citizens, right? It's like the basic role of the police. So, you know, maybe to do that, right? It makes sense. Yeah, for sure. And then a week later, we saw a terrible video of a religious guy walking through the city. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: You would think, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: pushing a nun that just went quietly him. She pushed her and she fell and then he came back and kicked And she suffered a lot of damage. And seen, unfortunately, so many instances of violence against Christian clergy in the old city, often by ultra-orthodox young people. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Kicked her while she was down, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: We've been following this for many, many years and demanding action by the police. think this case was unusual in the sense that it was just such so blunt you know, that obviously was not triggered or provoked in any way. And were shocked because of, you know, it was filmed and it was just pure violence and hatred. Josh Weinberg: Well, that's I think, you the fact that it got caught on video, the whole thing. you know, this was one, I don't know if it's a silver lining, but I, you did see in the video, another innocent bystander coming to, you know, try to intervene a little bit and help him. But it's just, I mean, you know, I can't help but think about the accusations of Jewish supremacy and feeling like, okay, like, would you do that? Why would you do that? Like, you there's just someone walking by and, you know, came in tact. I want to give a quick shout out to our colleagues, Rabbi Benny Minich and Rabbi Tamir Nir who came and visited French Bible College she was affiliated with in the old city in the Christian quarter. And, you know, just to give our solidarity there and to say that this is this does not represent Judaism. Okay, and that this is totally unacceptable and we should not tolerate such behavior. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yes, completely. to top it all, this week ⁓ had a discussion at the Knesset Committee for the Rights of Children. And the subject the discussion was the terrible phenomenon of increased violence among teenagers. And then you would have thought that people would say, well, this is a terrible phenomenon. Let's see what can be done. And why does police don't do its role? Because you this. ⁓ year we've seen an all-time record high of the number of casualties of murders in Israel, mostly Palestinian citizens of Israel, but not only. So you'd have that would be some kind of frank discussion. Obviously, this is not what happened under the current Knesset. This committee is chaired by a member of Knesset from the Likud named Katy Shitrit And let's start with the fact that... criminals and head of criminal gangs were invited to the committee not as someone to you know claim something against but actually as guests of honors of how we can learn from them how to treat violence I mean you would have you know it's really mind-boggling and one of the this ⁓ Josh Weinberg: And one of them said something quite problematic, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, so one of them who is a prominent criminal said about this murder that we just mentioned of the guy in the pizzeria, he said, well, the guys actually stabbed him didn't want to kill him. They just wanted to stab him as if this is something that is OK or legitimate. ⁓ And just that he was invited to the table and actually, you know, Josh Weinberg: is if that's okay, right? Like, oh, great, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: relatives of victims of violence who were also invited didn't have a place to sit around the table of the committee and they didn't have a spot but the criminals did. So it just shows you the priorities of this current government how it views phenomenon and obviously relatives of the person who was killed spoke from the bottom of their heart and it was obviously terrible and ⁓ really But we have no expectations that anything is going to come out of this discussion. And it was really, again, so blunt, disregard for human lives and the disregard of not what the government should do, what the police should do, and that actually things should be different. Josh Weinberg: Well, you know, is deeply troubling and I think we'll get to in a few minutes what ⁓ want to do and what, you know, hopefully what will motivate Israeli society to make change. I another, you know, fascinating piece from the news ⁓ the other that, you know, we've discussed this a few times about the death penalty for terrorism bill and the fact you days ⁓ after the hostages were ⁓ in October, which you know was a really hallelujah moment. But when many people were deciding what to do with their yellow ribbon pins, we saw a number of members of Otzma Yehudit, of the Jewish Power Party, switch out their yellow ribbons, their pins on their lapels, and if you had to look closely, but they changed it for a noose. Right? For, you know, to symbolize the importance of capital punishment for terrorists, as they say, but depends which terrorists. And then just this week, after the bill passed in the Knesset, just this week, Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben-Gvir, celebrated a birthday in which his wife presented him with a cake, not saying Mazal Tov Ben-Gvir or anything like that. Okay. You what? Even if he would have put a picture of the Beit Hamikadash, the Temple Rebuilt or Hevron or something. I could have said, okay, that's his politics, fine. But what did it have in it? It's cake or they give us the punchline? was the picture on his cake? Orly Erez Likhovski: says a happy birthday, Benkwere. He had a huge noose with a lot of whipped cream around it. And it says underneath, under this sometimes dreams come true. Okay, now there's a lot of talk. It's unbelievable. It's really beyond, right? Beyond like our wildest imaginations. you know, there are lot of talk about how this government is not only the most extremist and racist and homophobic and Josh Weinberg: It, it, yeah. Yeah. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Orly Erez Likhovski: really the most terrible we've ever had, a lot of people call them death eaters, right? Because they celebrate death instead of sanctifying life. This is literally death, right? So taking death and making this something to celebrate, literally consume instead of trying to fight all of those terrible things that are happening around us. So it's, yeah, know, what can we say? It's like we're out of words when you see something like that. And add to this, that this was a huge party. to which a lot of people were invited, including top senior police officers ⁓ top criminals, right? Why not be together, right? The criminals with the police force. really unbelievable. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think this was really an unbelievable event that sort of brought together the terrible things are happening and characterized this government, right? That they have no ⁓ intention of actually working for the public good, but actually the people that just gives them more power. And obviously people in the police know that the only thing that they need to do is actually, you know, say good things about Ben Gvir and do whatever he wants in order to be instead of actually protecting the citizens, right? It doesn't matter to anybody whether they're doing the job, they're going to get promoted and stay in the police force if they do Ben Gvir wants, which is right, acting against protesters, against the government, acting against Palestinians, left-wing people, liberal Jews, and not doing anything actually to what, you know, they're supposed to do. It's really mind-boggling. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. as if, you know, our hopefully are not terribly depressed and haven't turned off the podcast by now. You had the opportunity last Friday to go on a tour in the field, in Shetach, as we say, out to the West Bank. You went with, of course, colleague Rabbi Arik who's frequently there protective presence. us a little bit about, you know, why was it important for you to go there and what did you see there? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so it was organized by Rabbi Ashurman Stoatzedek and Rabbis for Human Rights and Reform Rabbis. we were several members of Reform communities around Israel that wanted to see with their own eyes what's actually happening because we've seen more and more reports of extreme settler violence, of expulsion of whole communities from their homes, violence and terror are happening really every day. And I think more and more Israelis understand that a lot of things are happening. So it's much more discussed than it used to be, which in and of itself is important, but obviously it's not because things are changing. So those things are continuing to. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. So where in the West Bank did you go and what specifically did you see there? Orly Erez Likhovski: So we went to two villages. One is a is of, I would say, northeast to Ramallah and then a little further north to Duma And we met with Palestinians who were driven out of their homes, who were subject to trying to put arson to their homes, trying to... ⁓ Josh Weinberg: And Duma of course is known to us sadly over years ago from the 2015 case of the Dawabsheh family, right? Where they were, their house was torched. Yeah. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. Right, yeah, they were murdered, parents and their child. And we met the grandfather who raises the child who was actually rescued and So ⁓ yeah, we've seen a lot of who ⁓ were affected by really daily terror that they're experiencing. the lawlessness this And obviously with the fact that neither the police nor the army are doing to protect them, if at all, they actually often ⁓ back the settlers. really they don't have anybody to turn to other than really the amazing people who are doing the protective presence, who are trying with their bodies to protect them. like... ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Right, because the army and the police don't protect them. Was this like, just tell me about your emotions for a second, because how far away from your house was this, that you had to travel, how many worlds away? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, so it's kind of amazing, right? Because it's about an hour drive from my home, which is like nothing. plus I have to say that, I mean, we were lucky in the sense that it was very, very, very quiet, very pastoral. Like we saw no soldier, no settler came to us, which is sometimes the case. And I think the sort the striking between how surreal and how quiet everything looked and the we've heard was really, really hard to grasp. I was ⁓ to see many illegal outposts on really every hill, ⁓ on top every hill. It's literally everywhere. And it got me that we keep saying, how come this government really has complete disregard of the rule of law? Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: has no understanding of the need to restrict its power. And then, of course, you understand because if the people who are running the government, many of them have, you know, live in the West Bank, this is what they know, right? They don't care about anything. They do what they want. They carry no consequences. So, of course, now they've brought it into Israel, into the green line, they want to do whatever they want. And they don't want the court to do anything that would stop them. They don't want the attorney general to tell them they can't do it. They don't want the public, the NGOs. ⁓ the media, everything, right? Because they're used to this lawlessness and to the wild west, right? And I think it's important for Israelis to understand that it's not something that you can stop beyond the green line. It does not stop there. So first of all, what's happening there is terrible. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Well, let me ask you about that actually, because like, do the averages, I mean, like, you you do this for a living and you're in the weeds all the time. And even if you're not there, you know, every week, like, what do you think the average Israeli is thinking about if there's such a thing as an average Israeli? you know, what are they thinking about this in terms of like, is this just, oh, let's not pay attention to that. don't bother me with that, they're all crazy out there, I don't wanna know about it, or like, I just wanna, you know, go about my life. then what happens when they're confronted with the reality of what's happening? Orly Erez Likhovski: So it's a good question. think that Israelis sort of turn a blind eye, don't want to hear about that. I maybe we can see that as a positive thing because people think, I mean, find it very hard to associate themselves with things that are happening there because they're so terrible. I think in this sense, a lot of Israelis didn't want to hear about what's happening to Palestinians in Gaza, right? During the war, because they couldn't understand ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Sure, sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: this is happening in our name. think people are really, I even say indifferent, they're suppressing the whole idea of what's happening there. And I think because we've seen such an increase in the of violent attacks by settlers toward Palestinians in the Bank, I think it is being more discussed. So people find it hard to ignore because it has become such a huge issue. Actually, we've seen in recent weeks the leaders of the Settler movement, including Smotrich, spoken against it, including top right-wing journalists have said there be violence against Palestinians in the West Bank because they understand that it's sort of one step too far for people to understand or accept or go about their days without thinking about that. Exactly. So I think people there's a problem. does not mean more. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it's not a good look for us, right? It's like, yeah. ⁓ about that. It's like against the Torah or something like that, you know. ⁓ of course, you know, we're working hard within KKL (Keren Kayemet L Israel) and we had pretty, I would call it a success actually, a victory in that (Keren Kayemet L Israel) voted during its meeting to not fund any of these programs that would help build up what we call the hilltop youth or youth at risk out in the West Bank, which we know resulted in some Orly Erez Likhovski: Of course, right. Yeah, so, so yeah. Josh Weinberg: taking part in some of this violence against Palestinians and building outposts. So ⁓ that's a critical success. ⁓ But Orly, yeah, sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, that was... That's huge step because obviously all this mechanism that is going on the West Bank needs a lot of budgets, right? So the government is funneling so much money through many routes to project, the illegal outposts from which the Jewish terrorists are coming and perpetrating what they're And so it's critical to cut down those as much as possible. ⁓ So I think really, you know, working in many ways, both to raise awareness, to cut down the budget, to tell more Israelis to talk about this to demand action is super important. And obviously it's not enough to talk, right? We need a change on the ground. And obviously this government has no interest in actually stopping this, but have to continue to push as much as possible in order really to bring about change and to raise a Jewish voice that this is, know, outrageous and should not be. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: not be allowed to happen further. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I think people listening or speaking of change, you know, I I want to hear if there's anything positive going on. I think many in the world, you know, hear this conversation we're having and saying, you know, it's very critical of Israel. And I want to be clear that that's not our goal here. Our goal is to make things better in Israel and to look at the things that are happening on the ground, which are shocking and disturbing as as we've laid out. But did anything happen last week that many the world, you know, hear ⁓ this conversation that we're having saying, you know, it's very critical of Israel. And I want to be clear that that's not our goal here. Our is to make things better in Israel and to look at the things that are happening on the ground, which are shocking and disturbing as as we've laid out. But could be good news or that was uplifting and inspiring. Give us some good news a little bit here, Orly. What's the story? Give us some good news a little bit here, Orly. What's the story? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so actually last week I attended a very ⁓ optimistic event, which was the People's Peace Conference in Tel Aviv, was organized by a coalition of peace organizations, I think over 50 peace organizations called It's Time. And have an annual ⁓ conference, I think just becomes more important every year, as it has much more difficult to talk about peace. Yeah, so actually last week I attended the People's Peace Conference in Tel Aviv, called It's Time. ⁓ So, you know, we have grown up with, you know, songs about peace. Everybody strives for peace, you're a right-wing person, left-wing person. Of course, this is our end goal. This has not, you know, is not the case anymore. So people hardly talk about this. It's not even people on the, you know, on the center, know, centrist political spectrum are afraid to talk about this because this has become to be associated heavily with extreme left. as, by the way, are human rights, right? Instead of actually being universal values that all of us strive for considered associated with one part of the political spectrum that could drive away voters and prevent you from actually gaining power. And tragic. And I think it has become especially so after October 7th, where any person talking about peace today and the two-state solution is considered naive, is considered that he has an illusions that nobody... Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. or worse, even a traitor. ⁓ And was this gathering, this peace conference, was this like a handful of left-wing activists and a few Palestinians or like, was there? How many people were there? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, right, right. that. So there were thousands of people there, and they had a lot of panels both talking about different issues and then the central event, which was really thousands of people under the title "It's essential. It's possible will happen" So giving us sort of a sense that, first of all, this is the end game that we should all strive for, that it happened in other parts of the world, and it's definitely going to happen too. Josh Weinberg: Incredible. Orly Erez Likhovski: the central event, which was really thousands of people under the title "It's essential. It's possible It will happen" So giving us sort of a sense that, first of all, this is the end game that we all strive for, that it happened in other parts of the world, ⁓ and it's definitely going to happen here too. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: And so there were a lot of people including a lot of bereaved families on both sides, both ⁓ Israelis and Palestinians talking about the ones that they lost, but that they want a different future and that they actually chose this future of peace because what they have gone through, talking other places like Ireland conflicts have been resolved. And then finally having of Knesset actually go on the... the stage and say, you know, this is what we're going to do. We have very concrete steps on actually it happen. ⁓ we have to remember to talk about it. Even if this a vision that ⁓ now a sort reality, which is ⁓ far away us, ⁓ we have have it in front of our eyes. We have to continue to talk about it in order for this to happen. And I keep about sort of, know, the other side, right? So the right-wing camp that is now in power. Even if that ⁓ now seems reality, which is ⁓ far away from us, ⁓ we have to have it front of our We have to continue to talk about it in order for to happen. ⁓ And I thinking about right-wing camp that is now in they have had the vision in front of their eyes for many years, Of the state of Israel that they want to materialize, which is of course not my vision, but they made it come true, right? ⁓ Even though 20 years ago, nobody would have thought this is something that could happen. So I think we should learn from them this, right? To believe in what we think we should bring about and not to lose sight of this vision, even when circumstances are very difficult. they have had the vision in front of their eyes for many years, Of the state of Israel that they want to materialize, which is of course not my vision, but they it ⁓ true, right? Even though 20 years ago, nobody would have thought this is something that could happen. So I we should learn from them this, right? To believe in what we think we should bring about and to lose sight of this vision, even when circumstances are very difficult. Josh Weinberg: I mean, listening to you and I also listen to many of the speeches at the at Veidat Shalom at the peace conference, allow to be cynical for a second. And I want to get your take on what you would say because many people both in Israel here in North America are saying, you know, that's great. It's essential. It's necessary. It's possible. But is it really you know, with whom are we going to make peace right now? There's still, you know, the Palestinian authority is weak. You know, we're not really in the position to negotiate with Hamas. There's still, you know, pay for slay going on, you know, right now within the, in the PA and the West Bank. And so when they talk about this, like, is this just, is it just talking or is something actually, actually possible and with whom? And what can we say to all those who are not? easily brought into the peace camp right now. Orly Erez Likhovski: You know, I think obviously there are a lot of difficulties and many of the things you've said are true. We have a real problem, by the way, with lack of leaders on both sides. looking back, we need brave leaders both sides. Some of them, unfortunately, we saw the leaders that brought peace on both sides have lost their lives, but there were brave that were willing to take chances and risks. in order to bring about peace. And one of the quotes that they brought during the conference was the quote of Menachem Begin when President Anwar Sadat of Egypt came to visit the Knesset in November of 1977. And it was Begin, a right-wing leader who said, war is avoidable, but peace is inevitable. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: So that's a very powerful statement that just imagine, know, Netanyahu saying this today, right? But this is something that we should strive for. Okay, so let's put it in front of our eyes and then do whatever we can to try to make this happen. And this means obviously trying to strengthen the moderate parts the Palestinian Authority rather than Hamas and Qatar, right? Which is completely opposite to what the, ⁓ government is doing. and also trying to think of somehow bringing about a political solution, right? mean, the problem with this government is that they decided not to do anything. Let's the conflict. We would not do anything and everything would be okay, right? This is what they said before October 7th and literally nothing was okay. ⁓ So they thought we can continue with the status quo forever. And think most Israelis, despite being very... Josh Weinberg: Sure. sort of perpetuate the status quo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: you know, scared and suspicious, understand that there needs to be a political solution rather than a military one. I the military solution is not the end game. So obviously it's not clear. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. I mean, that's my favorite Hebrew word, the word conseptzia right? Which is, know, again, really Hebrew, ⁓ the, that that we could just, you know, let it go and nothing would happen. And of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Right, right, so I think really changing the concept, changing the wording, changing the, and exercising our imagination in imagining a different future is important. Even, know, to just talk with our children, you know, we are thinking, we're trying to bring about a future where we're not living on our sword, right? We are trying to bring about different future. And the fact that we had both Israeli and Palestinian voices. during the peace conference talking about that, we wanted a different future. It was very powerful we have a lot of work in of us, obviously a lot of educational work, a lot of public work, ⁓ but important to know we're going there. Josh Weinberg: Right. And you know, And I think that, of course it starts with us and, and, you we can't ignore the fact that this peace conference and everything that's happening right now is really coming, you know, let's say five months ahead of the elections Israel. think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this will be the first time that Israel has lasted an entire four year period without elections, maybe even since 1992. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ and, and so we do lots of more episodes when it gets closer to the elections and we'll, you know, bring in experts and talk about that. But, how, how that translating into, you know, the, the, political arena leading up to elections or of course, lots of, you know, unifications and, ⁓ and, and, and political partnerships, ⁓ emerging now in the past ⁓ how are you seeing that? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, well, obviously it's very different from American politics because, we have zillion parties and everything is, you know, changing we speak. But we did have sort of the Big Bang in the sense that ⁓ Bennett and Lapid decided to run together. And that was surprising in the sense. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Just to clarify, that's both former prime ministers, Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid, who have had a long, let's call it a bromance, you know, and they decided to unify here at this time. Yeah, what do you think about it? Orly Erez Likhovski: And it was surprising in the sense that Bennett kept, you know, trying to get more right-wing voters and Lapid is portrayed as being left-wing, right? mean, so you right, right, right, right. But he's, definitely not considered right-wing on, you know, on any account. So in this sense, it was surprising. However, I think attempts to lure more people to vote Josh Weinberg: He's left-wing for the right-wingers and more centrist for the left-wingers, right? He's, know, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: for Bennett was an illusion in any way. So I think any unification makes sense because we have just too many parties and we know that from the previous elections, there so many votes that were lost because two parties didn't cross the threshold. So it's clear there needs to be unification. I don't know if this is like the best one. And obviously we have another political player, which is Gadi Eisenkot who is now not member of Knesset, but in the polls he gets a lot of votes. In the polls he gets like 15 mandates out of 120 that's a lot. ⁓ it's not clear where he's going to, whether he's going to join them or join others or run alone. So think there is still going to be a lot of political changes. Something that was very disturbing was that Bennett announced if he's going be prime minister, he's not going to ⁓ sit in a coalition with Arab parties, including Mansour Abbas, who sat in his coalition in the coalition, ⁓ which he did. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Right. which he did before in 2021, right? Yeah, of course, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. And that's disturbing on many fronts. First of all, you know, just look at the numbers, right? The numbers just don't match you need Arab parties in order to have a strong majority if they want to replace Netanyahu. Right. Because ⁓ otherwise it's on the margin. Like having 61 met. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Right. And my sense was that he was doing that just so that he could garner the right vote and he would be seen as an alternative as the AI images were coming out of Bennett and Lapid with Ahmed Tibi and Mansour Abbas, some of the Arab Knesset members. And I think we'll probably see more of that. But my bigger concern with Bennett and Lapid is that they did this too early. That unlike American politics, Israeli campaigns are very Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, so as... Josh Weinberg: are much shorter and they only get heated up right, you know, in the weeks before the election. But yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but I do want to go back to the delegitimization of the Arab Party and the Arab votes because I think it's important. It's not only the issue of the numbers, right? I think it's an issue the principle issue that they are sort of playing the game of Netanyahu and the right right? So they're accepting his rules of the game, which means that the Arab votes are considered illegitimate and they're trying to play within the confines of this game. And this is like a huge mistake because as I Josh Weinberg: Sure, yeah, yeah, it's important. Orly Erez Likhovski: no right-wing person is actually going to vote for Bennett. So why are you doing this? You're just actually, know, just enraging people within the liberal camp, delegitimizing the Arab votes, which obviously we need, we want the Arab population to go and vote and obviously have political representation and be counted as legitimate partners. And it really drove a lot of people crazy because it shows that you really don't pose an alternative, right? You're actually offering Israelis something which is sort of similar because, you know, Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Both Netanyahu and Bennett are saying that Arabs are not legitimate. So this sense, I think it's very troubling. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and I think Bennett is not, know, Bennett is still ideologically quite right-wing. I mean, I think he, you know, opposes a Palestinian state and would like the greater land of Israel, all of that, even though I find him to be a pragmatist. And I actually thought he was, you know, a good prime minister, you know, depends on how we're judging that. But I thought, Orly Erez Likhovski: Right, right. So it's good question. What's going to happen if we're going to have sort of a rerun of the previous government, sort of change government, which we had high hopes for, but did not bring about a lot of changes, right? So we have a lot of work in our hands to think about things need to be changed and the way to do them. To your question about sort of why do it so early, it's a good question. I think it did bring about some momentum. to the liberal camp, seeing that there is a change and maybe people would gather around one big party which garnered momentum and maybe change sort of the balance between the two blocs. It's true that a lot of things can happen. As you say, it's more than five months away, but I think it does make sense because for different parties in the same bloc fighting each other, it didn't work well for. Josh Weinberg: Sure. ⁓ they'll all cancel each other out. Yeah, for sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: for liberal values and did make sense. Yeah, yeah, but I know that this ⁓ last week you had a disturbing development of the issue of voting rights in the States as well because we have a lot of concerns about the elections and about suppression of voting, whether they're gonna be free and fair. And I know that in the US there has been a very troubling Supreme court decision. So maybe say a few words about that. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, as if, you know, everything was doing fine over here and we're just talking about, you know, the troubling things in Israel, you know, meanwhile back in the home front. Yeah, ⁓ say in a word, I was against that. And will just reference my colleague Rabbi Jonah Pesner who had an important op-ed in the forward. We can maybe include that in the notes of the podcast, but. Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Josh Weinberg: Yes, last there was a ruling by the Supreme Court. The case was actually called Louisiana v. Callais Where they struck down map that had created a second majority, it would have created a second majority black congressional district in the state of Louisiana. This has to do with gerrymandering. We shouldn't see this in a vacuum because this was, This was a long straight of Supreme Court rulings dating back to 2013 with Shelby County v. Holder And then again in 2021 with another law called another case called the Brnovich v. Democratic National Committee I don't want to get too into the weeds on this, but what makes us so egregious and so problematic is that in those two previous cases in 2013 and 2021, Congress could have passed a law to override this essentially. And now it cannot. And I was thinking, you know, comparing this, you know, with some of the legislative agenda during the judicial coup or the judicial reforms in Israel and that the right wing was very critical of the Supreme Court for being an activist Supreme Court. Would you concur here? And I was like, what more example of an activist Supreme Court than what took place, you know, right now in the United States? And it is really a Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: blatant attempt at voter suppression, especially those who are not white and, and, know, for, for black people, for African-American people in those specific districts. And, you know, it is very painful for us because, you know, we as the reform movement were so essential in passing the Voting Rights Act in 1965, which was signed in the building of the Religious Action Center for Reform Judaism, okay, in the conference room, sitting there, thinking about, you know, our both of civil rights and Reform Zionism, Rabbi Dick Hirsch, you know, was so instrumental in passing that and thinking about Rabbi, you know, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I was actually there at the RAC offices in December and I took the picture of the sign because it is so moving and so amazing be a part of this groundbreaking law and then seeing now that actually the Supreme is taking so many important out of this law that are going to dramatically affect the votes in the coming midterms Yeah. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Yeah. In the coming, it'll be implemented right now. Those are only, those are also five months away. look, maybe at the risk of stating the obvious, to say that just access to voting is the number one symbol and building block or foundation of a healthy democracy. Whenever I talk about Israel as a democratic and Jewish state, I always ask people, say, When we say democracy, what do we mean? And people, you know, eventually come up with the response of one person, one vote. You know, that's it. And that's why it is so deeply troubling. And so, you know, I hope the Israeli Supreme Court doesn't learn from the United States Supreme Court here in an attempt to suppress voters. Orly Erez Likhovski: I do hope so. think we're going to, know, toward both of our elections, we're going to see a lot of phenomena that we'll have to, you know, both of us deal with. And, you know, I know there's so many disturbing things on, but, you know, obviously we're not sitting quiet. I think, you know, ⁓ both of are doing whatever we can to... push against those troubling processes and ⁓ and to demand action by the authorities and to raise a Jewish voice against and against violence and for democracy and pluralism and justice. And I think this just that it's all the more important to raise this voice when we are under such an attack and to believe that we can bring about a different future. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: We should say that week we're going to talk in our episode about Day, which is going to be commemorated next week in mid-May. And we're going to the Haaretz journalist Nir Hasson who is a Haaretz reporter Jerusalem, to talk about Jerusalem Day and Jerusalem in general. So many challenges, but also a of positive news too. please be sure to join Josh Weinberg: And on that piece on the, on the Supreme court, was, I had the honor to hear Rabbi David Sapperstein, give sort of a keynote address. And he received award from the Hebrew Union College this week in which he said, the time to defend and uphold the institutions of democracy is while they are, they still have power, you know, while they still hold, you know, are in control and not. Orly Erez Likhovski: for sure. Josh Weinberg: Afterwards so that you know, thinking about that a lot, know, in Israel and the United States So Orly really a pleasure to talk about you, even though the discussion was terribly uplifting and Leaves us with with many many challenges, but look we to be real and I think that you know my connection to Israel is not just Fair weather when everything is going, you know is going well but we have to really take these issues and face them head-on because I think that you know Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, for sure. completely. Ha ha ha ha. Josh Weinberg: Israel can achieve its potential and we have to do that together. And so, you know, really grateful. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And we should remember that not only both of us are troubled and outraged by what we've discussed, but many, many, many Israelis, many, many liberal Jews in North America, so many people share our values, right? We are not like a small minority. There is a large and sizable group which wants a different future and is not willing to accept what is happening as reality, not willing to accept this as presenting Jewish values, we're going to make this happen. So this reality would not continue it is, thank you, Josh. It's always a And, you know, we should just say that conversations like this exactly why we started this podcast. ⁓ This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better, as said, for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if this episode meant something to you, please share it and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: Absolutely. And to stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, leave us a five-star review. Maybe something like, hey, after listening to the Pluralist podcast, I was about to be terribly depressed and after this laundry list of terrible things that are happening on, but in fact, now I'm inspired to make Aliyah tomorrow so that I can vote in the next elections. like that. You could just, you know, send that and then send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: If you're interested in sponsoring an episode or marking an upcoming occasion, we'd love to hear from you. And as always, if there's a topic you want us to explore, reach out and tune in next time on the Pluralist Podcast. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, bye bye. Josh Weinberg: Todah Rabba