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Andy Stanley - Mastering Difficult Conversations with Sheila Heen · Andy Stanley Sermons

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed
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to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy Stanley, and before we jump
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d Y too five to five one two three. That's Andy A and d
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Y too five to five one two three. You'll be glad you did.
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And now let's jump into today's content. So joining me today is Sheila Heen.
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Sheila is the founder of Triad Consulting Group and Deputy director of the Harvard
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Negotiation Project at Harvard Law School, where she has been for twenty five years.
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She specializes in difficult negotiations, not just conversation, difficult negotiations. She
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works with executive teams, helping them resolve conflict, repair professional relationships, and
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make sound decisions. To get now the reason we're having this conversation. She's
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the co author of two New York Times bestsellers, the one we're going to
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talk about today, Difficult Conversations How to Discuss What Matters Most, which just
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released and this is amazing a third edition. So I've written a bunch of
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books that barely made it out of the first edition. So the fact that
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this is a third edition book. I just want to say to our podcast
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listeners that means this is a book that has it stood the test of time.
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It continues to be relevant, the topic will always be relevant. The
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life cycle of this book will just go on and on and on. She's
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also written thanks for the feedback, the science and art of receiving feedback.
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Well, so, Sheila, thank you so much for joining us on the
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podcast. Well, I'm honored to have been invited. And yeah, we
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have a lot to talk about, right, Yes, I, as I
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was saying before we hit record, I have so many questions personally, I'll
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try not to turn this into a counseling session. So we're happy to jump
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into a council session, right because we'll all identify Yeah, well, nobody
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listening is a stranger. Difficult conversations, and we know what they are,
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so we don't have to define them. They happen at home, at work,
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in our neighborhoods, and most of us. Now, tell me if
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you think I'm wrong about this, but I think most of us think we're
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pretty good at difficult conversations, even the people who have a tendency to avoid
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them. I think on the back end, it's like, yeah, I
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handled that pretty well, But after reading your book, we are not.
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And we're not because of the way that you describe what's actually going on in
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difficult conversations. We're very one dimensional as we're about to see. And this
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is where your work was so helpful to me. So as we head into
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this season of difficult conversations we're headed into we're in December, we have potentially
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difficult conversations at work. People think they're going to get a bonus and they're
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not, or it's not what they thought. We're closing things, not going
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to crank them back up at the first of the year. And then there's
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the whole holiday thing, right, difficult conversations during the holidays. So get
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to the questions, what is at the core of being good at having difficult
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conversations? Oh boy, I mean, one of the things that you just
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hit on that sparked something for me was really the way that the conversations feel
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to us in the moment. And what's been interesting to me over the last
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few decades is just noticing for myself the conversations that don't feel quite as challenging
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or that go pretty well. It just feels like, well, yeah,
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because you know, I'm good and they're a person and totally reasonable, right
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so, and then so then when we bump into something where either it doesn't
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go well or we're anticipating how badly it's going to go based on history between
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us, maybe then it just feels like, well, the problem obviously isn't
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me. The problem is the other person because they're just so difficult. And
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so for me, part of this journey has been about better understanding what's going
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on on with me in those moments and where I'm getting myself stuck. Yep.
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And I think at the heart of it is that to understand our own
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difficult conversations, we have to look beyond what to say or what we do
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say to each other and look at what each of us is really thinking and
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feeling and sometimes not saying to the other, because that's what gives us a
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kind of X ray into the difficulty. Yep. And you do a deep
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dive into this. In fact, it's sort of the theme of the book
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because you talk about the fact that there's generally there's three layers of really any
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conversation, not just difficult ones, every conversation totally, but with difficult conversations,
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these three layers become more important than ever. So can you talk a
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little bit about these three layers? I think we're all aware of one of
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them for sure, but it's those other two that leave us walking away thinking,
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wow, why is that so confusing? It was so clear to me
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have unpacked this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So this this
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was a real revelation, which is that in any conversation, and especially in
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difficult conversations when we're in conflict with someone, there are really three layers of
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things going on, and three buckets of things that our internal voice is preoccupied
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with. And the first is the most obvious, as you mentioned, which
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is what we call the what happened conversation. In other words, each of
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us has a story about what has happened, what is happening now as we're
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trying to have a conversation about it, and what we think should happen in
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the future, and that story itself really has three key pieces to it.
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One is who's right and in particular, of course, what I'm right about.
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The second is whose fault is it that we're having this problem? And
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the third is, well, what's motivating you? What are your intentions,
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why are you acting this way? And what's interesting is that when you talk
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with people about their toughest conversations, the intentions piece is often the piece that
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leads the story. In other words, they'll say, oh, you know,
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I'm stressed out because I have to have this conversation with my boss or
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you know, a difficult colleague, And let me just tell you the kind
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of person they are, because then now that you understand that they love to
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be in control or they always want to be right, which is my read
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on their intentions, motivations or character, that helps you understand why I'm right
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and why it's their fault Yep, And so that story is going on for
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me, but by the way, it's also going on for the other person.
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And that's just the first layer of our stories and how they differ in
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terms of what's happening. Yeah, so it's what's happening and or what just
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happened, and now we're going to unpack it. And I think as I
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as I read the book, I realize, I think I may be overstating
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this. I think for most of us that's that's as far as we get.
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The conversation is focused on. Here's what happened? Why did you do
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that? That's not what I did. Well, that's what I think you
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did. That's what I heard you did. And we just stay there and
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again every parent listening, I mean we right, it's just I don't have
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time to talk about this, honey, why did you do that? Son?
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You know, we just get stuck there. What were you thinking?
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But it's these next Yeah, what were you thinking? And they're eighteen years
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old and they're not thinking yet, and we realize, oh yeah, frontal
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love development. Think, yes, frontal load development is a thing, right,
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Okay, So moving beyond the what happened and why did you do it?
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And what were your intentions and all of that. The second one,
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this is where it gets so interesting and so helpful. You talk about the
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feelings conversation and again these are all simultaneous. Talk a little bit about that
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that later. Yeah. So sitting under our story about what happened and what
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should happen is this question of what do I do with the feelings involved?
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And by the time something becomes a difficult conversation one and often both parties have
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a whole bundle of feelings. We think of them in singles like I'm frustrated
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or I'm feeling anxious, but in fact, in a difficult conversation, I've
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often got a whole bundle of sometimes conflicting feelings, like I really do appreciate
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all that you've done for us this year, and the fact that nothing has
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changed on this one front is driving me crazy. And I'm really frustrated with
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you, and I'm anxious about having the conversation with you because I also don't
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want to demotivate you. So I'm also feeling some trepidation and some self doubt
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about whether we're going to get through this. So I'm trying to manage all
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of those feelings. And sometimes when we're preoccupied with our own emotions, we're
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not also thinking about, well, you're walking in the door into a conversation
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that you probably have a bunch of strong feelings about too. So the second
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layer is all about what do we do with the strong feelings that we have,
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because often we think, well, I'll just keep that touchy feeling stuff,
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you know, and feelings, the messy feelings out of it. And
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the problem with that is that by the time something becomes a difficult conversation,
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usually we're trying to solve two problems. At least One is the surface problem,
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like do you get a bonus or not? And how do we talk
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about that? But there's often a second layer underneath it of how we each
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feel treated by the other, both in the conversation itself and in our bigger
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working relationship. So how do we talk about that? And if we ignore
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it, then the feelings are just driving the energy of the conversation rather than
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being addressed more explicitly. And they do drive the energy of the conversation,
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there's no doubt about it. Sometimes off a cliff about I don't know thirty
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years ago and I took a class. It wasn't like for credit class,
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but sort of a seminar on empathetic listening. And this does not come natural
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to me, but I'm telling you this was one of the greatest skills I
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have tried to develop, and it especially came in helpful as a parent.
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And empathetic listening you know far more about it than I do. Is basically
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when you listen not just to the words, but to the emotions and identify
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emotions. And goodness, when I am smart enough to bring the other person's
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emotions or name those for them and mine. Something almost magical can happen in
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a conversation, I think, because when people identify mine, I feel heard,
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right because we've all were talking about the stuff that happened. But when
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when somebody dips into how this has made me feel, or I can acknowledge
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how I'm sure this is making them feel, it kind of at least opens
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the door to this second layer you're talking about. Is that correct? I
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think that is correct. And one of the exercises that we sometimes do in
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our exec ed courses is a question about what are you listening for? So
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we'll do it in tryads because we're called triad, And so the talker is
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invited to talk about a situation that they feel they did not have to handle
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well. And one of the listeners is assigned to listen for facts or what
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happened, and the other person is assigned to just listen for feelings. Oh
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wow, and they don't. It's not particularly structured. I'm like, you're
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gonna have six or seven minutes, and you know you can jump in.
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You're naturally going to ask different follow up questions yep, And so we kind
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of get beyond the initial question of am I listening well or poorly, And
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the next level of listening is really what are you listening for? And listening
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for feelings will take you in a totally different direction in a conversation in a
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really beautiful way. And part of what good listeners do is that they're very
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deft at moving between and meeting their talker wherever they're at. I mean,
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it's an interesting thing to do at the dinner table, right when a kid
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comes home and is frustrated about something at school or sports practice or whatever.
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And if you each tag team to be like, all right, I'm on
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feelings, you'd be on what happened? Yes, right, You actually can
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have a more complete conversation about what that was like for them and whether and
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how they want any help thinking about what to do about it, and our
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natural tendency, And you talk a good deal about this in the book in
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terms of a business context, our natural tendency is what happened? What happened?
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What happened? I mean, even as a parent, your sen or
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daughter comes home and there they say I hate my teacher. The first thing
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out of my mouth is, well, what happened? Well, they've just
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expressed an emotion I hate my teacher, and I've already changed the subject I
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have. I've not gotten on board with the hate. I've just gone to
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the what happened. And it's a skill and I think, you know,
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some people are so good at this, and others of us have to discipline
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ourselves to listen for those emotions and affirm there. Every emotion should be affirmed
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because it's just the way people feel. But it is not natural. Now,
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talk a little bit about that in the marketplace culture, because you know,
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there's a tendency to go, oh no, no, we don't do
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that. We're all busys. We just need to keep it facts. We
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don't need to dip into that layer or that level. But that's a mistake.
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Talk a little bit about why that's the case. Well, I think
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it's because if the problem we're trying to solve is really a feelings problem,
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we're not going to solve the right problem if we're ignoring the feelings. And
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what do I mean by a feelings problem? Well, first of all,
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you know, my colleague comes in and they're incredibly frustrated about the interaction they
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just had with the client. Right, Well, I can jump into problem
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solving, but they might not be there yet, and what they want is
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just for me to go like, oh my gosh, that must have been
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so tough, because you like talk to me, because you were looking forward
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to this call, so that must have been a surprise, you know.
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And I'm really just listening for what's going on between you and the client and
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what was it like to step into what you thought was going to be an
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easy conversation and suddenly it was difficult. They're going to feel like, oh,
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you and I just connected, and now I'm more open, right,
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I'm more open to any suggestions you have or like, are there ways I
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can help? Et cetera. Also what I watch happen all the time is
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leadership teams talking about how do we improve engagement, how do we improve morale?
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How do we improve retention? Those are all feelings problems about whether people
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feel appreciated, whether they feel affiliated and included, whether they feel listened to,
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about the things that they feel they are legitimate that they have to say
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and things should change. How they feel treated is what's going to drive each
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of those scores, right, And if we're just in problem solving mode,
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well, let's have more Employee of the month recognition, right. The recognition,
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if it's genuine, may meet the appreciation need, but we're just focusing
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on the wrong part of the problem. And again, I think some people
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are skilled at this and others aren't. And the exercise you mentioned a few
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minutes ago, where you have one person assigned to one and one the other,
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that's a pretty fascinating idea, especially where there are two people who have
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an opportunity to listen and listen specifically for those two things. So anyway,
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there's so much I would like to talk about that because the whole being willing
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to be transparent about my own but to affirm the other person's. It really
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is you feel known, and when a person feels known, they're just going
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to trust and the conversation isn't as difficult, even you know when it's contentious,
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and there really are difficult things to talk about. Now, this third
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one is for me. This was a like a door opened up because I
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empathetic listening. I knew a bit about that, but this identity piece is
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so extraordinarily powerful and challenging to me. Is I think about conversations that didn't
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go well where I basically ignored the identity factors. So I think this is
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the most challenging one to understand. So talk a little bit about the identity
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comversation. Yeah, so this was a revelation for me too, to be
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honest and continues to surprise me where I'm like, oh right, that's what's
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going on for me right now. So the idea here is that we all
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have stories we tell about who we are and who we want to be,
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And often if a conversation feels difficult, chances are there's something the situation suggests
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about you that feels like it's at stake. So the identity conversation is the
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conversation with myself about myself. In other words, have I let someone down?
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Am I going to disappoint someone? Are they going to be mad at
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me? Do I not know what I'm doing? Is you know? Am
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I competent? Three core identity pieces are am I competent or incompetent? Respected
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or or not respected? Maybe goes along with that, Am I a good
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person? And am I worthy? Am I worthy of love? Am I
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worthy of being here? Et cetera. You can have every variation in the
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world if you just ask the question, what does the situation suggest about me
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that feels like it's a stake if you have trouble saying no. Often it's
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rooted in an identity that you think of yourself as a team player, as
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someone who'd never who's very loyal, or never abandon someone in need. And
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if that's true, anytime anybody asks you for help, it's hard to say
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no. So we've described and by the way, identity these days includes the
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things that we think of as socioeconomic or political, or racial or ethnic.
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Right, it includes all of those things, but it and sometimes that gets
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implicated because its like, am I betraying a group that feel that I usually
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feel affiliated with? And do I feel like I'm not in agreement with them
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in this particular case or I've let them down? But for this to leverage
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this, do me if I'm wrong. I need to be as attuned as
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I can be to how I think they carried their identity correct, because both
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the first place to start is with yourself to make sure I'm not communicating through
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some sort of defensive posture about my own identity. You mean yes, And
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also chances are you have contributed to the problem. Always are you talking about
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me personally? Yes? Yes, Yeah, I've talked to some of your
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colleagues. No, no, I know, yes, Oh yeah, I
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mean that's for me the hardest thing of like, oh, I am part
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of the problem that is so disappointing, and that's an identity thing for me
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too, like I knew better and I really let this person down. And
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I also think that in Christian communities and nonprofits mission driven, it's like,
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am I a good person? I let myself down in terms of the who
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I want to be in the world. So the first is to just get
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a handle on your own and just to ground yourself and accepting what is true,
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which is, as a human you can never live up to the standards
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we set for ourselves. You can strive toward them, and then you can
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take responsibility when we inevitably fall short. And identity is complicated because I would
20:19
want to be responsive to clients, but I also want to be a good
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parent, and when I'm with one of my kids and my phone rings,
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I have to make a choice. Life is complicated. Yeah, And then
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as you say that, if I can ground myself, then I also can
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think about, gosh, what does this suggest about them that feels like it
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may be an issue? And can I be aware of that and not inadvertently
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make that worse. Yeah, So where I've tried to apply this as especially
20:45
within I mean it's a little bit easier at home because the roles and how
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we identify in our homes is pretty much set. But with so many different
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employees and different personalities at work, when I can remember, and I have
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a couple of illustrations, I don't know you want to go into that,
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but when I can remember to the best of my ability, how I think
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this person identifies themselves in terms of what they feel like they're good at,
21:11
what they feel like they've been successful at. Which does you know these are
21:14
all just things that happen, whether they're healthy or not. If I can
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be careful not to attack those things or to affirm those things before I talk
21:23
about the difficult part, I've found that I'm able to separate out and I've
21:27
already said a tone to say I'm not attacking the you part. We're really
21:32
talking about an issue of performance, and the flip side is when we're aware
21:37
of how a person identifies, our compliments can be richer and deeper as well,
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because those positives make a bigger impact when we affirm their kind of sense
21:48
of self identity anyway. So this is a really big, rich topic that
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I think has more to do with the unresolved conflict after conversation than maybe anything
22:00
else, because it's it's so hard to get a handle on if it's mind
22:03
the ballpark, that's kind of what I takeaway are I think you are?
22:07
And another another way to think about how that plays out is that although we
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just walked through the three layers of conversation starting with what happened and then feelings
22:15
and then identity, in fact, in practice it goes the other way,
22:21
like identity gets hooked, which amplifies the feelings, like we have bigger reactions
22:26
than we otherwise would to what's going on and more anxiety. And then that
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also colors the story we tell, because we're going to cling more tightly to
22:36
what we think we're right about, because it feels safe in all this uncertainty
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and self doubt and or outrage, like I can't believe you're saying I was
22:44
unfair. I'm like such a fair person. It also means that it's scary
22:51
to think about my own contribution to the problem, the way in which I
22:53
may be am part of what happened, and it means we're more likely to
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attribute negative intentions to the other person always. Yep, Yeah, so I
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think they're tied together. You said you were thinking of a couple of examples.
23:08
Well, in my world, I deal a lot with communicators and leaders
23:12
and those people who kind of identify and consider themselves really good communicators. That's
23:18
part of an identity thing. So when I'm critiquing someone's communication and I know
23:25
they identify, part of their identification is, hey, I'm a good communicator.
23:30
I've learned that if I can affirm that skill, their talent and their
23:33
success before I dive into the how it could have gone better, again,
23:38
I've affirmed something that's very very important to them. Then I work with some
23:42
extraordinary production people who just are like they're just they can just produce the heck
23:47
out of things. Well, you know, that's kind of the reputation in
23:49
the organization. So again, everybody's carrying something that's kind of the Hey,
23:55
my value add to this organization is A and B, and that has to
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be at least organizationally, that's something that carry in terms of identity. So
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if I can remember to call that out early, affirm that you know,
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there's that's your value add here, and you're so good at it. Now
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we got to talk about something that you know is contentious, I think mentally
24:17
or emotionally. It helps sort of separate the two to say I'm not attacking
24:21
the identity. We're talking about a separate thing. And then for me it's
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the same thing because as a communicator and leader, and I got this from
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reading the book, So I realize that my self identity at work leans more
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toward or I value my identity as a leader more than a communicator, I've
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discovered. So consequently, I get critiqued on my communication all the time.
24:45
We do it between services every Sunday, and it's you know, nobody loves
24:51
to get that stuff. But you know, I've learned a roll with that
24:52
and I want to get better, and you don't get better without evaluation.
24:56
But when people criticize my leadership, it's a deeper cut. So then taking
25:03
that lesson and realizing, okay, what's true of me is true of everyone
25:04
I'm face to face with when it comes to difficult conversations. So if I
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can affirm those things that I feel like, and in most cases we're kind
25:14
of guessing a little bit that I feel like they might be building their identity
25:18
around it just goes better? Is that? Am I mind the ballpark?
25:21
Oh? Totally. What a fascinating thing to notice about yourself, which is
25:26
that you have a bigger reaction. Well, when they're talking about your leadership,
25:30
absolutely, and what does what does leadership mean to you? What do
25:36
you hear them critiquing? Well, I hear them critiquing my competency, right,
25:41
competency in doing particular things. Yeah, and trusted or just leadership in
25:48
general. You know. But again, in recognizing that, I think I
25:52
was able to turn that around and say, Okay, what's true of me
25:53
is true everyone I'm face to face with, especially I'm the boss. So
25:56
my word's weigh a thousand pounds anyway, Yeah, totally. So anyway,
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I just thought the whole identity piece was to me, that was the big
26:03
aha in terms of these three levels. We all deal with what happened,
26:07
the whole emotional thing, we know, because we're emotional, but the identity
26:11
piece at the heart of it. Oh yeah, there's a story that my
26:15
wife's name is Sandra, and one of the stories that she tells is we
26:18
just wrote a parenting book, and I told the story in the book and
26:22
I did the audible and it was so emotional for me to tell this story.
26:25
But she tells the story about she's holding our oldest he was a baby.
26:29
She's feeding him actually with like a spoon, just you know, and
26:33
her dad comes downstairs and sits there on the stool and just watches her,
26:36
and he says to her, you are such a great mother. And Okay,
26:42
everybody feeds their baby, right, I mean, this is not rocket
26:47
signed to me, bad mothers feed their children. But for her, as
26:52
a new mother who wants to get this right, this is a new part
26:55
of her identity. She can hardly tell that story without it and emotional.
27:00
Well. Yeah, so I think we all have those things, and when
27:04
we can discover those in each other, value those Again. I just think
27:11
it creates extraordinary context for difficult conversations. And I mean that was just another
27:15
takeaway as I read this material. So I love that story, and it
27:21
also makes me think about the ways in which it's exactly when we're trying to
27:26
grow into something that we're not sure we know how to do. Oh,
27:30
yes, where we're most sensitive. And I mean, I so vividly remember
27:38
being sent home from the hospital with our firstborn and feeling like this is an
27:45
extremely irresponsible thing that the hospital was doing, even the way you said it
27:48
they sent us home. I felt like, this is not a responsible action
27:53
for you to send this baby home with the two of us, because we
27:57
do not know what we're doing. And in a work context, I think
28:03
the two places where we're most sensitive are the places where we worry we don't
28:07
know what we're doing, or we thought we did, and we suddenly find
28:12
out that we're not as competent, we're not as far along. And I
28:15
was curious about the particularities under that sense of leadership because I've started to realize
28:22
that I the couple of things that really will grab me, hook me,
28:29
and get me defensive have to do if if someone feels I wasn't fair,
28:36
or if there's a question for them about whether they trust me in being honest
28:41
with them, and those two things I mean. I was once grounded for
28:45
an entire summer because I lied to my mother, So being honest and trustworthy
28:52
is a big deal in my identity story in terms of what I strive for,
28:57
and like that's the fast way to get me on my back heel right,
29:03
because I'm just like, what yep, No, that's that's so important.
29:07
And again for our listeners, if we can identify that part of our
29:14
own lives, number one, that's healthy. But then it creates the reminder,
29:18
oh yeah, every person I'm face to face with is carrying an internal
29:23
sense of identity that, in your illustration, is so great that oftentimes they
29:27
don't even know what it is, but it is there. And I was
29:33
doing a review with the Communicator one time and I was, you know,
29:37
specific, but I and I wasn't harsh, but there were some things you
29:40
needed to hear. And I saw him shut down. I mean I just
29:42
saw the lights go out and I realize I should stop here, you know
29:47
what three or four other men or women would take and stride like, oh
29:51
yeah, I need to work on that. I just touched on something that
29:53
shut him down, and I did. I stopped it. I just we
29:56
just kind of ended there. And it's that very thing you know, for
29:59
you, it's honesty, and there's an integrity piece that's so important. Yeah,
30:03
but it was a difficult conversation and because obviously I was not dialed into
30:11
the identity piece. I mean, lights went out again. If you go
30:15
on or not, we could because this is exactly what led us from the
30:19
work in Difficult Conversations to our next book fifteen years later, about the challenges
30:25
of receiving feedback about ourselves from all the people around us, about the ways
30:30
in which they wish we would change, and that journey to really hear and
30:37
understand what the world is trying to tell us about how we're impacting them,
30:41
I think is one of the most challenging difficult conversations that we're having with ourselves
30:45
as well as with the people trying to get through to us. So I
30:49
do think that this is part of what's at the heart of it for us
30:53
and for anybody else we're in difficult conversations with. Yep, understand that identity
31:00
piece. Yeah, and when you trip over it, you know, there's
31:04
a suddenly it's like wall. All I said was and it's but anyway,
31:08
okay, so real quick, kind of a lightning round and I can throw
31:12
out these things and you can just comment on him as we wrap up,
31:17
just some of the most most common mistakes in navigating a difficult conversation. Well,
31:22
one of the things you talk about is postponing a difficult conversation you want
31:26
to comment on that. That's something we have all done. Unfortunately, that
31:30
does not make things better. Yeah, So one of the things to do
31:34
is to shift from blame to thinking about what did we contribute to this?
31:40
And avoiding a conversation until now is one of the most common things we contribute
31:45
to the difficulty. We've let it sit, we've let it fester, people
31:48
have come up with their own stories about what's really happening. And just owning
31:53
that upfront, like I wish we would have had this conversation, you know,
31:57
a few weeks ago or maybe years ago, is a really powerful way
32:02
to open a conversation. So when we realize we have postponed it, just
32:07
acknowledging that upfront. Yep. I looking back, I wish that I had
32:12
reached out to you earlier. I think it's sad and festered and I'm part
32:15
of that. Wow, and I really apologize. But that's another reason I
32:19
think it's so important for us to jump in and better understand it now.
32:22
There are, as you know, so many our temperaments impact how prone we
32:27
are to do these things on time or late or too early, or come
32:30
in with too much energy anyway, So I think each of us has leaders,
32:34
especially have to figure out where we are on that continuum and not postpone
32:38
in an unhealthy way. The other thing you talked about and you touched on
32:43
this earlier, is the whole turning the conversation into a blame game. That
32:45
it's easy to do that, and I think sometimes when we've postponed, we've
32:51
built up too much steam and we come in with guns blazing and next thing
32:55
you know, it's just blame. How do we avoid that or how can
32:59
we set ourselves not to get into that. Yeah, I think that's one
33:02
of the reasons. If you do not want to have a blaming conversation,
33:08
then the strongest signal you can send is by owning your contribution up front.
33:13
So whether that's you know, I shouldn't have postponed this, or it's look
33:16
looking back, there a number of things I think I'm going to have to
33:19
do differently going forward, and you know, for instance, here's here's at
33:23
least one of them. But what I'd love to do is sit down and
33:28
just better understand how we got here so that we can each know what do
33:31
we want to do differently? Going forward to either sort this out or to
33:35
make sure that we don't land in the same place next week, next month,
33:39
or next year. And owning your contribution first is taking a little bit
33:44
of a risk because they might say, like, oh, good, so
33:45
you know it's all your fault. But you don't have to accept that.
33:50
That's the last word you can say. I can't change it by myself.
33:52
I think we're probably both going to have to change. Yeah, that's I
33:57
call that owning your slice of the blame pie. Sometimes yeah, pie up,
34:00
I'll say, Okay, even if it's just five percent, you got
34:05
to find your five percent and own it before you have a conversation. And
34:07
generally it's more than five percent, But you know, what's your slice of
34:12
slices of the pie. Another big one, and I have thoughts about this.
34:15
I don't know if you'll agree, but another big problem you talk about
34:19
is the lack of preparation, or failing to prepare for a difficult conversation.
34:23
Yeah. And I think most of us prepare for the difficult conversation in the
34:27
car on the way to work. And that's all the prep we do because
34:30
we know the meetings at nine thirty and oh yeah, I need it.
34:32
Now I'm going to prepare, and that is not a good approach. Talk
34:36
a little bit about preparing for the difficult conversation. Yeah, so one mistake
34:42
is that we don't prepare. A second mistake is that we prepare by writing
34:46
down or mentally noting our list of talking points. And the talking points tend
34:52
to be things that we know we're right about that we want to make sure
34:53
to let them know, because of course once they understand, they will agree
34:58
with us the fantasy anyway. So instead, part of what I'm trying to
35:06
do is actually move my own internal voice from what am I right about to
35:09
Gosh, I wonder why we see it so differently? It seems so obvious
35:13
to me that I'm right. What's causing them to have a different sense of
35:17
things? What are their past experiences, et cetera. And if I can
35:21
negotiate myself into a different purpose, which is first I have to understand why
35:24
we see it so differently, then I'm apt to have a better conversation thinking
35:31
about what did we each contribute, including what do I want to own for
35:35
myself? And the third thing on that drive in that I'm doing is reminding
35:39
myself. I don't know their intentions why they did what they did. I
35:44
do know the impact that it's had on me or the team or the mission
35:49
and people were trying to serve. So let me separate intent from impact and
35:52
say like, look, you probably didn't intend this. I don't know,
35:57
but what I notice is an impact that I think we need to address and
36:01
that helps them preserve their identity. By the way, it's not saying you're
36:05
a bad person in digital purpose. It's just really focused on let's talk about
36:09
the impact, because that's the problem we need to solve. I think,
36:13
and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in terms of
36:15
preparation, this template that you lay out in the book, Yeah, is
36:20
a great preparation template. It's yes, I need to be clear on what's
36:23
happened. I need to think ahead, Okay, what are the emotions this
36:28
is going to elicit? And remember to affirm those emotions, you know.
36:32
Just that's part of the preparation. And then this third piece, okay,
36:37
because this is what we never think about intuitively, what do I perceive as
36:42
their identity? And again I'm guessing, but with a little bit of time,
36:45
especially if it's somebody you work with you can at least get close enough
36:49
to. As part of my preparation, I want to make sure I affirm
36:52
those things that I know they value about themselves. So I think the template
36:59
just gives us a template for preparing rather than I know to your point,
37:02
I know what my talking points are and we'll just let it go from there.
37:06
So I think these three things are big part of the preparation. If
37:08
we can remember is that's that true? Accurate? That is true. So
37:13
one of the things that we can do with this framework is to use it
37:16
as a checklist, and once you get the hang of it, you can
37:20
do it while you're driving into work. And you know, on our website
37:22
we have a section called help Yourself and we have free preparation quick prep sheets
37:29
that you can download and just jot down, jot down your thoughts while while
37:34
you're getting ready for the zoom call. Right, Maybe don't jot down your
37:37
thoughts while you're driving, but you can make mental note while you're driving.
37:42
Well, I think that takeaway from the podcast, and I highly recommend the
37:45
book, especially this new edition, because you keep updating illustrations and the things
37:49
that are because culture changes, the way we communicate change. The whole work
37:52
from home thing makes this so complicated when you're not even around a person in
37:58
the office much. And hey, we haven't seen each other in two months,
38:01
and our next interaction is going to be negative. All of right,
38:04
all of those things make this so much more complicated. Any final thoughts,
38:09
I mean, there's obviously we've skipped over so much, but any you know,
38:14
takeaways, last thing, if you forget everything else, break the glass
38:17
kind of thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean one of the
38:21
things that I think is useful to remind myself of is gosh to the extent
38:27
that I have difficult conversations in my life. That's actually a sign of health
38:31
in an organization. If you have difficult conversations and that you're anxious about and
38:38
care about handling well, it tells me that you care about what you're doing
38:44
and you're really dedicated to doing it as well as you possibly can, including
38:47
learning along the way. And the second thing it tells me is that you
38:51
care a lot about the people you're doing it with. Yep, that disappointing
38:55
them or frustrating them or being in conflict with them really matters to you,
39:00
and those two things are beautiful things that we're both bought in and over time
39:07
we're learning. Can we trust each other that when we bump up against things?
39:13
I know, I just have confidence that we'll talk it through and we'll
39:16
figure out, Gosh, what went wrong? Like what should we learn together?
39:20
And why did you see it so differently? Where'd that come from?
39:23
Huh? Fascinating? And if you're open to hearing what somebody else has to
39:29
say, you make it much more likely that they are open to hearing what
39:32
you have to say and that you find your way together to the other side
39:36
of an important conversation. Wow. I think if we all think about the
39:38
best boss we ever had, we will quickly remember there were some difficult conversations,
39:46
right yeah, and their honesty to the point you just made, Their
39:51
honesty and the fact that they would confront us valued us, valued us in
39:54
the organization. And here we are hovering many years later, thinking back and
39:59
going, you know what she really was? He really was the best boss.
40:02
They developed me more than anybody else, And they developed me by confronting
40:07
me and yet yet not taking away my dignity. Somehow they understood this identity
40:12
piece. They affirmed my frustration, you know, all those things. So
40:15
for those of you who avoid difficult conversations, as you think about the people
40:21
who have invested in you the most, there were difficult conversations along the way,
40:25
So we need not shy away from these things. And I think that's
40:30
what makes people trust their leaders yep, is that they have a sense like
40:34
you're being straight with me. You're going to tell me the stuff, even
40:37
if it's hard, but you're also going to be open yeah to hearing my
40:39
point of view, so that I'm not in it alone and not being in
40:43
it alone, We're in it together. I think is foundational, absolutely true
40:50
at home, true in the neighborhood and in the community, true at work,
40:52
and true in the world. Well, Sheila, that's all the time
40:54
we have today. Thank you so much for being here, and to all
40:58
of our listeners, we want to thank you for joining us and invite you
41:00
to check out the new edition of Sheila's best selling book, Difficult Conversations How
41:05
to Discuss What Matters Most wherever books are sold. Now, be sure you
41:08
visit the Andy Stanley dot com website where you can download the Leadership Podcast application
41:14
guide that includes a summary of this discussion plus questions for reflection or group discussion
41:19
as well, and make sure you join us next week for our Reverb episode
41:22
on the topic of navigating difficult conversations right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.