Latest / Buying Local Podcast / 30 Years of Impact: Inside Ndakinna Education Center | Buying Local #75

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30 Years of Impact: Inside Ndakinna Education Center | Buying Local #75 · Buying Local Podcast

0:00
Welcome everyone to buying local.
0:01
I'm your host, Mike Nelson from 5 Towers Media, joined today by
0:06
and Jim I I I, you may be our number one guest.
0:09
I'm not sure I actually. And so ladies and gentlemen, Jim
0:13
Bruschak from the DACA in Greenfield Center.
0:15
But I, you know, it's funny, Jim, I had Jay Ingleston on the
0:19
show a couple days ago, who's also been on the show a good
0:23
number of times. And I was like I said to him, I
0:26
was like, I don't know. I was like either you or Jim,
0:28
I'm not sure which one of you guys have had on the show the
0:30
most, but it's a pretty tight running So but welcome back,
0:33
Jim. We're so we're super glad to
0:34
have you, man. Glad to be here, glad to be
0:37
here. Always a good time to share with
0:38
you guys and I you're knowledgeable, knowledgeable of
0:41
all the things we do. So that helps.
0:44
And of course, we're we're happy to get the get the word out
0:47
there. So much appreciated.
0:49
Well, listen, I, I love what you guys do.
0:52
Obviously, you know, over the years I've done so many
0:55
different things with you guys that at, at your location and
0:59
beyond and I love it. I think it's really unique
1:01
programming. I think what you guys have the
1:03
offer is amazing. So I'm I'm excited to have you
1:05
on again and, and talk about 30 years.
1:10
Yeah, yeah, that. Was amazing.
1:12
Yeah, 30 plus years related to specific last year, we we
1:16
celebrate our 30th camp year. So we're just past that 30 year
1:20
mark, but the celebration is still ongoing.
1:22
You know, we've passed 3 centuries of doing youth camps
1:27
here. We've been doing programs for,
1:29
of course, longer than that, but we organized our first ever
1:34
youth camps in the springtime 31 years ago, 30 years ago last
1:40
year, and we kind of did it on a whim.
1:43
We had this idea, let's try to do some youth program because
1:45
originally I assume we'd be doing more stuff with grown-ups,
1:49
but I'd already worked with kids a lot as an author and a
1:51
storyteller and educator in that capacity.
1:55
So we decided to give it, give it a whirl, you know, runs run a
1:58
spring break youth camp here at Ndocina on our nonprofit, at our
2:03
nonprofit facility and our nature preserve here.
2:05
And it took off. I mean, we filled, I think we
2:08
only advertised for like maybe a month and a half and the camps
2:12
filled up. So we realized then we had
2:14
something. So we did some summer day camps
2:18
and that just was two weeks every summer for the first few
2:21
years. And that just continued to
2:24
expand until it took up a good portion of the summer until we
2:28
started adding some overnight camps.
2:31
So it just kind of it, it grew it, it, it organically grew
2:35
based on interest. And as we did the programming,
2:39
the interest just grew as well. So it's been a great 3 decades
2:43
of doing these camps and of course, they're continuing to
2:46
this day with the focus, of course, on kids learning some
2:50
key survival skills like shelter making, fire making, as well as
2:54
nature awareness, which also includes animal tracking, you
2:57
know, plant and tree identification, and just how to
3:00
be comfortable in the woods, how to understand how to get along
3:05
in the natural environment, feel safe and be able to really enjoy
3:09
the natural world. And of course, on top of that,
3:11
bringing in a lot of the native legends that my brother and I
3:15
were lucky enough to grow up hearing, a lot of them from our
3:17
father. So we passed down some of the
3:19
native traditions in the form of storytelling, which also ties
3:22
into understandings of natural awareness, nature awareness.
3:27
And so we've just continued to build on that over the years.
3:30
And we started out with our adventure day camps.
3:33
Eventually we added our Pathfinder programs, which are
3:37
more, are more intensive teen programs.
3:40
Of course you offer for our kids under the teens as well with
3:43
Junior Pathfinders, you know, 10 to 12 year olds, but teens
3:47
primarily is what we started Pathfinders with, which was our
3:50
first and continues our overnight camps, which are more
3:54
intensive wilderness camps for Kidsville, camp in tents, but
3:57
also towards the end of the week at the camp and shelters they
3:59
built. So we've kind of continued to
4:02
build on the experiences. We've done trips in the
4:04
Adirondacks over the years with kids, canoe trips, all sorts of
4:08
different excursions just with the idea of increasing kids
4:11
understanding of the the natural world and feeling more
4:15
comfortable in that environment. You know, it's, it's really
4:20
perfect time for this conversation too, because
4:21
Kristen and I were just talking about summer camps for Bodie
4:26
and, and she mentioned yours because she got the, I don't
4:30
know where she saw it, if she got like the, the Greenfield
4:33
town newsletter or something, but it was somewhere she came
4:36
across it and she's like, or maybe she googled.
4:38
I'm not sure, but I, I, I wanted to pick your brain.
4:41
So now I get to do it on a podcast, right.
4:45
So you've got, tell me a little bit more about the summer camps
4:48
because I know we're, you know, we're coming up on those pretty
4:50
fast. Sure, sure.
4:52
So yeah, so we start out with our with our Oz bond camps,
4:56
which is our ages basically like 5 to 7.
4:59
And those camps we will focus on same things I mentioned, but
5:03
obviously to the level of the learner.
5:06
So the kids will learn shelter, making nature awareness.
5:09
So hear a lot of stories are taken native games, they usually
5:14
aren't the group that does fire making.
5:16
They will get to see how fire making is done and understand
5:19
the principles of it. But we kind of start fire making
5:22
at the 8 year old and above. And you know that guidance is
5:26
always there of course, 'cause there's something you need to be
5:28
a very careful with. But of course it's an essential
5:30
survival skill. So, you know, we, we cater each
5:34
camp from, from Azaban to Owosso's, Noka Molson, all the
5:39
different age groups based on what the kids can learn.
5:44
And of course, once the kids have learned enough, they also
5:47
could qualify for some of our more advanced camps as they get
5:50
a little, little bit older, like our Pathfinder camp.
5:53
And so most of them are very wilderness intensive, you know,
5:56
learning about the natural world, getting out and doing
5:58
these skills, but also having fun at the same time.
6:01
So we incorporate various games. We also have a low ropes course
6:05
here kids utilize. We have different activities
6:07
throughout the day where they learn to use all of their senses
6:10
more like blindfolding them and playing various games to learn
6:13
how to use their ears to listen to the and understand their
6:16
surroundings a little bit. But more so, you know, we want
6:20
it to be like a, a total, you know, sensory experience as
6:25
well, which is being in nature really is, you know, so learn
6:27
how to not just be looking at your phone all day, but
6:30
observing, listening to everything in your surround on
6:33
your surrounding world. So that's really what we tried
6:35
to open up people's awareness to what's around them.
6:38
So a. Little better than with young
6:40
people. Yeah.
6:41
Well, and we should probably touch a little bit on your
6:46
family's ancestry, you know, as you may, as you gave the names
6:49
of the different categories of camps, if people aren't familiar
6:52
with Nadakna, they might not know the background of why
6:55
you're using those names. So why don't you give us a
6:58
little bit of the the rundown there?
7:00
Sure. So we are of mixed ancestry,
7:02
European mixed with various native tribes from this part of
7:05
the country. We are members of the Mohegan
7:07
Abenaki tribe, one of the four state recognized Abenaki tribes
7:11
in the United States. But like all Abenaki people and
7:14
many people of native ancestry in this area, it's usually a mix
7:17
of different ancestry. So we of course have our English
7:21
ancestry, we have Slovak ancestry, we have quite a bit of
7:23
Dutch ancestry, which also connects with some of our native
7:27
ancestry, which includes, you know, Muncie, Lenape people,
7:31
Mohegan people, Mohawk people, and of course Western Abenaki.
7:35
But of course, all of those people kind of coalesce together
7:39
at various times in history, such as at the community of
7:41
Scatter Coke, which I have relatives that made their way to
7:44
this area via there from those various Native ancestries.
7:48
And then of course, a lot of people ended up settling in the
7:51
Saratoga region for the tourist trade as well as the basket
7:55
trade. And in fact, my dad's
7:57
grandparents who raised him, their family descended from
8:01
basket makers in this community of Native ancestry, mixed Native
8:05
ancestry. So that's where kind of our
8:07
original connection, mostly through my dad, through his
8:10
grandparents, especially his grandfather, that connection to
8:14
this area. But of course, people back then
8:16
weren't very proud of their native ancestry.
8:18
So my dad, especially in his college years, wanted to seek
8:22
out a lot of the things that people were losing, like the the
8:25
stories, like those understandings of the history,
8:28
because you didn't used to be able to make make money telling
8:31
stories or, or teaching these skills.
8:34
And so my dad really took it upon himself to learn these
8:36
things. And so my brother and I, as we
8:38
grew up, we heard all the stories.
8:41
We had an understanding of all of our ancestry.
8:44
And so of course, nowadays we're very proud of it.
8:46
We like to share information with other people.
8:48
My brother is a course at language.
8:50
He speaks the language fluently, teaches at Middlebury College,
8:54
runs courses throughout the year in Abenaki language, Eastern
8:57
Algonquin languages, and of course has worked on movie sets,
9:01
helping people learn the language to properly enunciate
9:05
the words on set. Yeah, yeah, it's really, really,
9:08
really cool and a really cool family history, right?
9:12
You know, and I love that you guys are are so immersed in
9:16
sharing it with everybody, with the local community and, and,
9:21
and again, some of those skills. And I know we and I've had many,
9:23
many, many conversations about this stuff, but a lot of the
9:27
skills that you guys are teaching and, and at the whether
9:30
it's at the child level or adult levels, just really things you
9:34
don't really see a lot out there anymore.
9:36
And so I think makes it more imperative that we're that the
9:40
programming that you have, right?
9:42
Oh, I agreed, Agreed. And we know we're having an
9:45
interesting situation now we're just seeing the end of what we
9:49
call the COVID bump. So during COVID for a little
9:52
while we are, we were one of the few camps that was open and
9:56
because we're outdoor based, we got flooded with new kids.
10:00
All right, So this year we were wondering why are we?
10:02
So how, you know, the little kids, there's a lot less of them
10:05
than the middle and especially the older kids.
10:07
We've never had teen groups this big.
10:10
And we realized these were all the COVID kids, you know, they
10:12
came in during that time. Some of them were 6-7 years old
10:15
when they came in and they've stuck with us.
10:18
So that's really cool. And and you know, that was a
10:21
time that of course was rough for everybody and horrible
10:24
thing, but at the same time, it turned a lot more people onto
10:27
the net and going into the woods, you know, and of course
10:30
now the Adirondacks is dealing with the negative effects.
10:32
So many people are hiking now, which is great.
10:36
And of course we benefited from that as well, people wanting to
10:39
spend more time outdoors. And so we were here and once
10:44
again, it actually in the in the long run kind of helped our
10:46
program. Right now we're trying to
10:48
backfill, you know, we need some of those younger kids to come
10:51
back in here, you know, so we're doing a lot of work to get some
10:55
of the youngsters back in here while we're doing quite well
10:57
with the older kids. And of course, you know, here
11:00
and in document our facility, we also offer martial arts
11:03
programming. And of course, we do offer one
11:05
martial arts camp during the summer.
11:06
My family are, we are all black belts and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
11:10
and other arts. And so we've incorporated
11:12
martial arts in this facility and that grew a lot post COVID.
11:16
People want to get back in shape.
11:18
And so that program has grown quite a bit.
11:21
And as you know, we also had to add another location for our Jiu
11:24
Jitsu at Wilton Mall. So separate but related stuff,
11:28
which is of course grown over the last half decade quite a
11:31
bit. Yeah.
11:33
And on the on the martial arts side, you have are you what I
11:36
know that you have Kyokushin and you have, well, are you still,
11:40
are you running any Jiu Jitsu out of the dock?
11:42
Yeah, we still have some jiu Jitsu here at Indochina.
11:45
The kids program has has stayed here strong, although there are
11:48
still more of course in Jiu jitsu at Wilton Mall.
11:51
But the kids are are still here because we also offer the kids
11:54
Muay Thai so they can go back and forth between kickboxing
11:57
slash Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu. So some of those same kids also
12:01
train at the mall. But then we have a population of
12:03
kids that live close to here, they'll want to take advantage
12:07
of being able to train in multiple martial arts.
12:08
And of course, martial arts, another one of the arts of life,
12:11
you know, as well as, you know, understanding your environment,
12:14
survival skills. Martial arts is really part of
12:16
that part of being a, a kind of a, a complete human being, you
12:20
know, mind, body, spirit. And so kids programs doing great
12:24
here for the adults. A lot of it is focusing now on
12:27
the Muay Thai. Of course, we have the Kyokshin,
12:29
judo and a little bit of jujitsu.
12:31
And we just had, we have one of, if not the first professional
12:35
Muay Thai fighter in the Saratoga area just won his
12:39
second pro fight, this time in Buffalo.
12:41
He won his first pro fight while living and training in Thailand
12:44
for five months. Marcus Davis is a well known
12:47
Saratoga grad great guy. His fire his his father that is
12:52
only a few years ago retired from Saratoga Police Department
12:55
and he's a great guy. He also helps coach here.
12:57
Marcus Davis, very good fighter, had an incredible KO with a
13:01
spinning elbow in Buffalo at K4 fighting pretty awesome this
13:05
past weekend. And this week at also martial
13:07
Arts, we had one of our our young, a 19 year old get gold in
13:12
the IBJJF in New York International Open, which is a
13:15
high level jiu jitsu tournament. So we had a kind of a cool
13:18
weekend. We had someone winning our
13:20
striking arts and someone winning our jiu jitsu arts.
13:22
Very. Nice.
13:24
I know I can speak to Marcus's coaching ability.
13:27
I've taken a couple of the movie tag classes, only a couple
13:29
unfortunately because my schedule, but I did really enjoy
13:32
the classes and he was a really good instructor.
13:35
No, he's a he's a great guy. He's he's kind of a fan
13:37
favorite. So we were happy when he came
13:40
back. He turned, he turned pro in
13:43
Thailand. So we were happy when he
13:45
returned home because we get to have him help coach here and of
13:49
course to win his his US debut because he debuted in Thailand
13:55
to, you know, win his first pro fight in the United States.
13:59
That way was pretty awesome. So knockout in the second round
14:02
and just just a great guy though to you meet him.
14:04
He's really humble but extremely skilled.
14:07
Well, Congrats to Marcus on the win.
14:10
So you've got you have the summer camps coming up.
14:12
Obviously that's a times of the essence, right?
14:16
That's summer's coming fast, man.
14:19
You got the martial arts. What?
14:20
What are the kind of programming guys doing over?
14:22
At so we also of course recently as you know rebooted up our our
14:26
Sunday survival series. We're doing a series of classes
14:30
throughout the year, basically the final Sunday of every month.
14:35
I've heard every quarter that is that every month we do several
14:40
times a quarter, sorry, back that up 2 * 1/4 last Sunday of
14:46
the month. We offer courses for grown-ups
14:48
and they're, they're, they're like half day classes and we
14:51
made them affordable $40 classes.
14:53
You can come in and learn animal tracking.
14:55
And next, not this coming Sunday, but the Sunday after we
14:59
have our wilderness navigation essentials class and we still do
15:02
have some room in that. So that's a really good course
15:06
to understand how to navigate the woods with a compass and
15:08
also how to use natural navigation, how to use the sun,
15:11
the stars, the moon, the way plants grow, and just anything
15:16
in nature that could be used to tell which way is which.
15:19
And of course, not being lost is kind of an important survival
15:22
skill. And of course, I have another
15:23
animal tracking course coming up at the end of May.
15:27
And then we will be shortly after that adding a bow drill,
15:30
fire making course, learn how to make your own fire by friction
15:33
kit, and then just go on from there.
15:35
So we're going to keep adding more courses, things that I
15:38
teach as well as we will eventually bring in other
15:41
experts as well to teach some of those Sunday survival series.
15:44
So that's kind of cool. And my brother has a language
15:46
course coming up in a couple weekends as well, the Abenaki
15:50
language. And then we are already in
15:52
planning for our Fall Harvest Festival, which we did last
15:56
year, year before originally was the Saratoga Native American
15:59
Festival. Big of that we ran the grounds
16:02
of the Performing Arts Center, the dance museum, Congress Park.
16:05
And we after COVID decided to run smaller events here at our
16:09
facility, hundreds of people versus thousands, but it's much
16:12
more intimate. And so we will be running that
16:15
event again in September. So always looking forward to
16:18
that. Nice, Very nice.
16:23
I had a specific question for and I think I and now you do.
16:27
There's other things that you offer too right at the document
16:30
that are not necessarily your programming, but other people
16:33
using the facilities. Yeah, right now we have Clark
16:36
Hayward. He is runs Adirondack Wilderness
16:39
Medicine. He is running a course for for
16:42
wilderness first responders and he also does wilderness first
16:45
aid courses. So he is running a class right
16:47
now doing that. So we offer programs like that
16:50
that are, you know, someone else but related to what we do.
16:54
And then of course we have storytelling events with
16:56
ourselves and other guest storytellers throughout the
16:58
year. We've done basket making classes
17:01
here. We're looking to bring in more
17:02
things like that in the future as well.
17:04
So different, you know, regional material culture, arts and
17:08
crafts type stuff as well here at a document.
17:11
And of course we run school field trips here throughout the
17:13
year. That season's about to start
17:15
season starting in about two weeks.
17:17
We will have 12 different schools coming in over the
17:20
course of May and June learning about native culture.
17:24
Some are here more to focus on wilderness skills, wilderness
17:27
survival, team building, and just have a good time in the
17:30
natural world. Yeah, I, you know, I took the
17:34
wilderness first aid with with. Clark, right?
17:39
Yeah, Clark. Yeah, yeah, I love that class.
17:41
That was great. I the, I thought the instruction
17:44
was great. It was a good time, was fun.
17:46
Definitely 2 thumbs up and highly recommend.
17:49
But you know, it's funny you said the, the bow drill fire
17:52
making class I that's the one I haven't taken yet.
17:54
Jim, out of all the stuff that you guys have going on there, I
17:57
have not. And how hard is it really?
18:01
Depends on what type of material I let let you use.
18:03
So first go round, you know, we have a kind of pre cut pretty
18:10
easy. You just have to fine tune it
18:12
and finish up the kit. It's mostly about the technique,
18:15
learning how to actually navigate the the tools to get
18:20
smoke and eventually get a coal and then taking that coal and
18:24
making it in the fire. So I try not to make it too hard
18:26
the first time, you know, get down the technique and then
18:31
overtime learn how to do it in the woods.
18:34
One of my fondest moments teaching survival for boys.
18:37
Probably a few decades ago, we were doing a wilderness
18:40
walkabout and Bojo fire wasn't part of this, this class.
18:44
We were doing more spark fires and things that people could
18:46
obtain quickly. But everybody was eating lunch.
18:49
I looked around me and there were some materials that looked
18:51
pretty good. So I was able to use a little
18:54
bit of Elm bark, a string fashion to bow out of a, a Maple
18:58
sapling. There were some big dead
19:01
branches on a pine tree right next to me.
19:03
I kicked them off, split them. So with a knife, I had made a
19:08
kit and had a fire before people finished lunch.
19:12
So that was one of my coolest moments as a survival
19:16
instructor. But I just assessed the area as
19:18
a nice dry day and so much was around me that I could use that.
19:22
I wanted to try it out and and it worked quite well in a in a
19:26
short amount of time so. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating,
19:30
those skills and being able to have them and use them and, and
19:33
when you put it in the respective of how many people do
19:35
not have those skills. Exactly.
19:38
And, and you know that I know that you talk about it in some
19:40
of your classes too, just about everyday situations where those
19:43
skills can come in handy, right? Like people, they, they hear
19:47
about bow drill, fire making and they're like, I'm never going to
19:51
need that, right? I got a lighter.
19:53
But it's like, well, there's, there's situations.
19:56
No, there, there, there, there certainly are and building it by
20:00
yourself from scratch if you've never done it before could be
20:04
hard. But if you understand the
20:06
principles, doing one with another person where you get one
20:09
person on either side of a bow, 2 pushing down.
20:12
I have kids come here, teenagers during field trips, and I will
20:17
give them a a finished kit, a bigger one made for multiple
20:20
people. And if there's three to four
20:23
groups doing it, at least half of the groups get a call and
20:26
that's within 1015 minutes. So if you understand the
20:29
principles, especially if there's more than one person
20:33
that can work together, it's a very obtainable feat by
20:37
yourself. Takes a little more practice to
20:39
do a solo Bojo cap, but that the actual science behind it.
20:44
Once you understand that, it's not all that hard, especially
20:47
with practice. Practice, That's the thing
20:50
that's I, I always think about the practice side of it when I
20:52
do the, the survival, like the fire making, you know, like I do
20:55
a class and I'm like, all right, I got this skills.
20:58
I got these skills in the tool bag, but I don't ever practice
21:01
them. And I'm like, I wonder if I
21:02
would actually be able to do what I learned in that class
21:06
without without practice is what I got to.
21:09
Do. Yeah, you had.
21:10
It's just like martial arts, you know, you get rusty for a while.
21:12
Yeah, it's, it's it's kind of like riding a bike.
21:15
But maybe, maybe you need one more training wheel on there for
21:18
a little while, you know. So it's there, but you just need
21:23
to reawaken it. And the further you separate
21:25
yourself from it, the harder it is to to get back to where you
21:28
were before. But you still come back quicker
21:32
having already learned it and understand it, understood that
21:35
skill, whether it be a martial art or a survival skill.
21:38
It's the same with me in tracking.
21:40
If I haven't been out West tracking a while in grizzly
21:42
country, I have to kind of remind myself and you know,
21:46
understand my surroundings again.
21:48
And and then in a short amount of time, I'm usually back to
21:51
where I was the last time I was in that environment.
21:53
Comes back quick. Yeah.
21:55
Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah.
21:59
Yeah. So I know, I know we're getting
22:01
short on time, but school, school, field trip season coming
22:06
up. Then.
22:07
Then right behind that is summer camps.
22:09
Summer camps start beginning of July.
22:11
Summer camps start usually mid-july.
22:13
They go mid-july to late July, late August.
22:18
Like yeah, yeah, right. You know, they end a couple
22:21
weeks before school starts. So but it's usually, I say
22:24
mid-july, mid August, but it's kind of mid-july to a week after
22:28
mid August. So that makes sense.
22:31
And we have multiple camps going out at once.
22:32
And of course we do camps also on Spruce Mountain.
22:34
One of our our board members, Brian Brumley owned some
22:37
property up there we use. So we're able to do some
22:39
satellite programs up there, especially with our teenagers.
22:42
We do a day camp up there, the Not a Waha camp, where it's an
22:46
extended day camp for four days up on the mountain.
22:49
And then we also have two overnights.
22:51
We have our junior Pathfinders and our full Pathfinders program
22:54
as well, the juniors for younger kids.
22:56
And of course, the full Pathfinders is for teenagers,
22:58
and that's the more intensive tracking and survival
23:02
experience. Love it if, Jim, if people want
23:05
to learn more about these summer camps, they want to sign their
23:08
kids up or some of the survival series or the martial arts that
23:12
where do they find you guys online?
23:14
Yeah. So you go to www.indakina,
23:19
that's NDAKINN, acenter.org, indakinacenter.org.
23:30
And you can sign up for everything right there.
23:31
Get more info. Yeah, it's all online and
23:33
mentions how much room we have left.
23:35
You know what needs to be done to get you in the program and of
23:39
course we have. You can also e-mail with any
23:41
questions. Of course, those questions do
23:44
arise. Yes, absolutely, absolutely,
23:48
Jim, as always, I appreciate coming on the show man, and
23:50
spend some time with us and our listeners and giving the lowdown
23:53
on what you guys got going on. And you know, I, I, I think I
23:56
say it every show, not to sound like a fanboy, but I love what
23:59
you guys do and, you know, fascinating family and you doing
24:02
a lot of great, really cool stuff.
24:04
Yeah. And one other thing I want to
24:05
mention, Speaking of kids, I was talking about Marcus and a
24:07
recent adult achievements. We also have had kids.
24:10
We had a kid become a, a, a Muay Thai world champion last year,
24:15
Damian Snyder, who also just won the New York State wrestling
24:18
Championships through our wrestling program.
24:21
So we have kids that are doing really awesome things and we
24:24
have three kids going this year to the WBC World Championships
24:30
and Muay Thai in Thailand. So we're sending 3 kids to that
24:34
this year. Kids are doing great things here
24:36
and and all levels as well as the grown-ups.
24:38
Yeah, Love it, Jim. Thanks again, man.
24:41
I appreciate. You're welcome man.
24:42
Yeah, hopefully we'll get you on again soon.