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Catherine Hoggle: Did mentally ill mom kill kids? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
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Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
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Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
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Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen the new
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Speaker 1: network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
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Speaker 1: x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. A mixture of
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Speaker 1: grief and anguish for the family not knowing what happened
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Speaker 1: to two year old Jacob and three year old Sarah
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Speaker 1: in September. The children's mother, Catherine Hoggle, told Montgomery County
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Speaker 1: police that she left her children with a friend, but
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Speaker 1: she's never said who or where. The children's father, Troy Taylor,
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Speaker 1: believes she knows exactly what happened. Was murdered my children.
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Speaker 1: She was leaving Troy. Her main thing is sick with control.
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Speaker 1: That's her biggest sickness. She did not want him they
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Speaker 1: have the kids. Mental health professionals have repeatedly found Hoggle
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Speaker 1: not competent to stand trial. The stay can keep Katherine
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Speaker 1: Hoggle locked up for five years or why they try
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Speaker 1: to restore her competency. If she remains incompetent in five years,
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Speaker 1: she may have to be released. Two children, a two
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Speaker 1: year old little boy a three year old little girl missing,
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Speaker 1: nowhere to be found. Where are Jacob and Sarah? I?
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being
1:39
Speaker 1: with us. It was just after eleven o'clock on a
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Speaker 1: Friday night that police then get a call from a
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Speaker 1: local residence in Germantown stating that Katherine Hoggle, the children's mother,
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Speaker 1: was spotted at Century Rock Boulevard. Immediately, police go there
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Speaker 1: and they find Katherine Hoggle, but her missing children were
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Speaker 1: nowhere with her. The children have been missing and reported
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Speaker 1: to be with their mom, Katherine Hoggle, but then police
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Speaker 1: find Katherine. Where our Jacob and Sarah? Well. Many people
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Speaker 1: gathered at a Chick fil A parking lot on Saturday night.
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Speaker 1: We're praying to find the little children and the hopes
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Speaker 1: that they would be found safe and sound. As of
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Speaker 1: right now, their disappearance still remains a mystery because the
2:36
Speaker 1: mom insists that overwhelmed with motherhood, she gave the children away.
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Speaker 1: She gave her children away and refuses to tell police
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Speaker 1: who she gave them to. Let's start with what we
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Speaker 1: know with me, Cold Case Research Institute Director Cheryl McCollum.
3:01
Speaker 1: Also with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl White. First to you,
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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. So much focus ended up on a local
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Speaker 1: Chick fil A in Maryland. Why needs because that's where
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Speaker 1: she was last seen on video. The mother that's right,
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Speaker 1: Katherine Hoggle was actually spotted instrumentance video walking out of
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Speaker 1: a Chick fil A very surreptitiously. Cheryl, I mean, I
3:29
Speaker 1: have looked at this video over and over. Some people
3:32
Speaker 1: actually describe it as sneaky. Um. What about her demeanor
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Speaker 1: made it sneaky? Well? I mean again, you know, you
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Speaker 1: you get dropped off, you're gonna go in, you say
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Speaker 1: you just want some of the drink, and then you
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Speaker 1: slip out the side door and leave the children's father outside.
3:51
Speaker 1: I mean it's very sufficious. Wait wait wait, wait, wait
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Speaker 1: wait wait, Cheryl, take it from the beginning. Tell me
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Speaker 1: about that visit to Chick fil A and why it's
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Speaker 1: so sicknificant. Well, she tells the child, the children's father,
4:04
Speaker 1: that she has dropped them off at a new daycare
4:06
Speaker 1: and she just wants to go to Chick fil A
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Speaker 1: for something to drink. He drives her there. She goes
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Speaker 1: in the front door, presumably to go to the counter,
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Speaker 1: get a coke and come back, but no, she slips
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Speaker 1: up the side door. He does not see your leave.
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Speaker 1: So after a period of time he goes in the
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Speaker 1: Chick fil A to look for she's gone. So this
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Speaker 1: is what we know. That father is desperate and is
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Speaker 1: asking for help. He goes to the mom. He goes
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Speaker 1: to his wife, Katherine Hoggle. She says, oh, you know,
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Speaker 1: I enrolled I didn't like the last place. I enrolled
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Speaker 1: them in a new daycare, and I took him there,
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Speaker 1: and well let's go there. Now, can we stop and
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Speaker 1: get a drink at Chick fil A? So he goes, sure,
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Speaker 1: they stop at Chick fil A? And I'm looking at
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Speaker 1: the video right now. Let's post that on crime online
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Speaker 1: dot com place I can see her in the video.
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Speaker 1: She comes into us, like Cheryl mccllum is telling me,
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Speaker 1: kind of goes up to the counter and then leaves
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Speaker 1: out a side door. The husband's just sitting outside. Now
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Speaker 1: what we know is that the father is the one
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Speaker 1: who contacts police almost immediately and reports the mother and
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Speaker 1: the two children we're missing. It's interesting to me that
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Speaker 1: she also, Cheryl mccllum, and I'll tell you later why
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Speaker 1: this is so important, keeps her face turned away from
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Speaker 1: the surveillance video. I don't know if you notice that
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Speaker 1: or not, but okay, So she walks out of the
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Speaker 1: back door of Chick fil A and goes to a
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Speaker 1: Germantown transit center. What do we know happens after that?
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Speaker 1: Cheryl White is with me Crime Stories contributor. What do
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Speaker 1: we know, Cheryl, Well, all we know is that they
5:51
Speaker 1: there are two tiny children missing. They've never been found. Now.
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Speaker 1: One part of the story from the Chick fil A
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Speaker 1: see is that they had been driving around. According to
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Speaker 1: the children's father, they had been he and Katherine, the
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Speaker 1: children's mother, had been driving around for a very long time.
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Speaker 1: She said, oh, I can't remember where this new daycare is.
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Speaker 1: That's when she said she needed something to drink, and
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Speaker 1: they stopped at the Chick fil A. So they've been
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Speaker 1: driving around for a while, and the father said he
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Speaker 1: was starting to get more than a little annoyed and worried.
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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, he told her he was
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Speaker 1: driving her to the police stage unless she told him
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Speaker 1: where is the daycare? And she's like, gosh, you know,
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Speaker 1: I just signed him up. I can't remember where it is.
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Speaker 1: Just keep going, It's in here somewhere. Can I have
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Speaker 1: a coke? That's how that whole thing played out. But
6:44
Speaker 1: then we've got a whole another story going on. Uh.
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Speaker 1: Sheryl McCallum, director of the Cold Case Institute. Police say
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Speaker 1: that that Sunday night, the mom takes the children to
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Speaker 1: her mother's house in Clarksburg, that she was going to
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Speaker 1: take her son Jacob for a pizza, but that when
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Speaker 1: she got back home three hours later to the mom's house,
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Speaker 1: he wasn't with her. She told the mom Jacob was
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Speaker 1: at the playmates house, right, So that's a whole another
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Speaker 1: story that she's telling. So police say Jacob was not
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Speaker 1: there and he hasn't been seen since. So which of
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Speaker 1: these stories are true? This all goes down while the
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Speaker 1: dad is out working. He has an overnight job, Cheryl,
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Speaker 1: like my dad used to have, so he's at work
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Speaker 1: when the mom says this happened, So what about that story?
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Speaker 1: We've got the story that she dropped them at a
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Speaker 1: new daycare. And then we've got this story that police
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Speaker 1: seemed to be confirming that Hoggle took the two babies
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Speaker 1: to her mom's house in Clarksburgh. Says she's taken Jacob
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Speaker 1: out for a pizza, comes back without him about three
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Speaker 1: hours later and says, oh, we stayed at the friend's house. Okay,
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Speaker 1: what do we know about that? Which of these, if
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Speaker 1: either are true? Well, we don't know. Oh, and that's
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Speaker 1: what's happening. You're having to build a case on live
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Speaker 1: and that's why this is so difficult. She's not telling
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Speaker 1: the truth ever. So you don't know where Jacob is,
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Speaker 1: you don't know the friends, you don't know whether aren't
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Speaker 1: police saying this, aren't police stating that she took the
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Speaker 1: children to her mom's house. Is that much true? I
8:22
Speaker 1: believe that much is true, But I'm saying where Jacob
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Speaker 1: went from there, we don't know. We don't know what friends,
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Speaker 1: we don't know where she left him. And then it's
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Speaker 1: the next day on Monday. The dad has been working
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Speaker 1: on and he's like, where are the children, and she says, oh,
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Speaker 1: I put him in a new daycare. So, I mean,
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Speaker 1: if she's telling any of the truth, they did go
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Speaker 1: for pizza, there was a playmate, and she took them
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Speaker 1: to daycare the next morning. I don't think that's true.
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Speaker 1: I don't think any of that's true. But you know
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Speaker 1: as well as I do, when you have children and
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Speaker 1: their fathers involved, y'all have long discussions about daycare. That's
9:01
Speaker 1: not a quick twitch. You investigate the daycare. You make
9:05
Speaker 1: sure it's a good place, a safe place, and you
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Speaker 1: damn well know where the place is when you leave
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Speaker 1: your child there. Yes, I agree, That's why I don't
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Speaker 1: think any of this is true. Plus, I'm going back
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Speaker 1: to our last known signing. I mean the whole daycare.
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Speaker 1: That's the pile of bs alright, the B sameter is
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Speaker 1: like shrieking in my head. Um, So that never happened,
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Speaker 1: just for the reasons you just said. So, I'm already
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Speaker 1: back to what I know to be true. Police are
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Speaker 1: telling me she was spotted at her mother's house with
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Speaker 1: the children the night before, or at least one of them,
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Speaker 1: and that would have been on Sunday night. The dad
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Speaker 1: is at work, he works nights. She says she's taken
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Speaker 1: in for pizza. He's never seen alive again. So my timeline,
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Speaker 1: which is you know where I always start, Cheryl is Sunday.
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Speaker 1: That's they're not mentioning the little girl going, But that
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Speaker 1: is when, in my mind, that's when the children are
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Speaker 1: either sold, are given away, or worse. Now Cheryl McCullum,
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Speaker 1: we know the next day the dad is at the
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Speaker 1: Chick fil A and she leaves. What is her story
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Speaker 1: about giving her children away? She told everybody that she
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Speaker 1: gave them away, but she refused to say who she
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Speaker 1: gave them to. Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor. She is
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Speaker 1: insisting that she gave the children away and quote they
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Speaker 1: are safe, but she refuses to reveal where they are. Why.
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Speaker 1: What reason do we speculate or what reason that she
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Speaker 1: gives she gave the two babies away. Well, some are
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Speaker 1: saying that there's trouble in the relationship between the father
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Speaker 1: and and Katherine, the husband and wife. There. Um, one
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Speaker 1: thing haven't talked about as the third child. So my
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Speaker 1: question is why the two younger children and not the
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Speaker 1: older child? Right, there is a third child. That child
11:10
Speaker 1: is safe and sound. Um. We also have statements by
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Speaker 1: the father. The father tells police that while he's at
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Speaker 1: work on Sunday afternoon, Hoggle's own father dries them to
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Speaker 1: the grandmother's house in Gaithersburg. Hoggle then borrows her father's car,
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Speaker 1: it's a Grade two thousand twelve Nissan Rogue, and tells
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Speaker 1: her parents she's taking Jacob to get pizza. So now
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Speaker 1: I'm confirming again they're alive and well. On Sunday, Sunday afternoon,
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Speaker 1: the father and the grandfather and the grandmother place them alive. Okay,
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Speaker 1: So she disappears in the dad's Nissan rogue. She returns
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Speaker 1: three hours later, without the son or without food. Claims
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Speaker 1: she dropped the baby at the playmates house and then
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Speaker 1: came back went back to her home with her daughter.
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Speaker 1: That's the last time either of them have been seen alive.
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Speaker 1: Now let me ask you this, Cheryl McCullum, where the
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Speaker 1: children ever spotted on any surveillance video at a pizza
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Speaker 1: place or anywhere. No. Never tell me about the search
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Speaker 1: that ensued. Sheryl White. Well, it was a four day search,
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Speaker 1: and it was one of those intensive searches. You have
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Speaker 1: babies missing, and so they just mobilized the entire community.
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Speaker 1: It's police, it's family, it's friends, it's total strangers that
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Speaker 1: are searching everywhere, not only for the children, but for
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Speaker 1: Katherine as well, the mother too. She's missing at this
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Speaker 1: point as well. This is what we have for a description.
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Speaker 1: Sarah Hoggle is just the little girl is just three
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Speaker 1: ft six inches tall. She only weighs forty pounds, brown
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Speaker 1: eyes and brown hair. Brother j a cub three feet tall,
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Speaker 1: ways twenty five pounds. He has brown eyes and blonde hair.
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Speaker 1: Let me go ahead and give you the tip line now,
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Speaker 1: three oh one to seven nine eight thousand. Three oh
13:15
Speaker 1: one to seven nine eight thousand, let's talk about Catherine
13:18
Speaker 1: Hoggles description five six hundred and sixty pounds, brown eyes,
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Speaker 1: black hair, wearing blue jeans and a black tank talk.
13:28
Speaker 1: That's what she was wearing with the children go missing.
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14:43
Speaker 1: Two little children, Jacob and Sarah Hoggle are missing. Officers, police,
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Speaker 1: citizens k nines extensively search the area for your children
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Speaker 1: that Saturday. According to Montgomery County Police Department, I remember
14:59
Speaker 1: very well these two go missing, and for the life
15:02
Speaker 1: of me, I could not understand why the mother, Katherine Hoggle,
15:07
Speaker 1: would not divulge where her children were. Now shrinks will
15:12
Speaker 1: tell you that she was having trouble with her marriage
15:14
Speaker 1: and was overwhelmed with three children. She says she gave
15:18
Speaker 1: them away, gave them away and refuses to state where
15:23
Speaker 1: they went. Why? Why was she refused to state? Could
15:27
Speaker 1: it be because she hates her husband so much she
15:29
Speaker 1: doesn't want him to have them. Is she af ray?
15:32
Speaker 1: She's going to be indicted for neglect or giving away
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Speaker 1: her children. Let's take a careful look at her behavior.
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Speaker 1: She is the key to the location of these children.
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Speaker 1: With me, Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor and Cheryl McCullum,
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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, let's look
15:50
Speaker 1: at her mommy's behavior before and after the children's disappearance. Absolutely, nay,
15:57
Speaker 1: pre and post behavior are going to be key in
16:00
Speaker 1: zero in her mind set here. So how was she
16:03
Speaker 1: before the Sunday night Pezza and her mother's The things
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Speaker 1: that she said, the things that she did. Was her
16:11
Speaker 1: focus on Jacob? Was she angry at him? Was she
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Speaker 1: angry at their father? Something was going on that now
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Speaker 1: people will be able to pick up and say, I
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Speaker 1: remember this. The post behavior, her wondering around saying that
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Speaker 1: she gave them away. She hasn't called the police, she
16:28
Speaker 1: wasn't worried about him, she hasn't organized searches. All of
16:31
Speaker 1: that's going to be imperative, and I hate to tell
16:34
Speaker 1: you its rings of Casey Anthony Ah, I was thinking
16:37
Speaker 1: the same thing I didn't even want to say the
16:39
Speaker 1: words taught mom. How do you compare Hoggle Catherine Hoggle
16:45
Speaker 1: to tot Mom Casey Anthony, who murdered I believe murdered
16:50
Speaker 1: her little girl, Keilly. What about it, Shall McCollum. Well,
16:54
Speaker 1: here you are. You have her, you know, going with
16:57
Speaker 1: her own parents, riding in the car or having some
16:59
Speaker 1: fine so get pizza. It sounds like a great normal,
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Speaker 1: you know evening. Next thing you know, oh, I gave
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Speaker 1: him away, gave them away? What just like top Mom,
17:11
Speaker 1: Casey Anthony blames Zenia Gonzalez that pretend nanny was so
17:16
Speaker 1: freaky about that is she had been She taught Mom
17:19
Speaker 1: had been looking at an apartment, uh Sawgrass on Sawgrass Road,
17:24
Speaker 1: I believe it was. And police go to that apartment
17:28
Speaker 1: to check out her story and Nieda Gonzalez had actually
17:33
Speaker 1: been there before Todd Mom and signed in, signed in
17:38
Speaker 1: that she was going to look at a model apartment.
17:41
Speaker 1: So top Mom goes there, sees the name that's where
17:44
Speaker 1: Zenya Gonzalez came from. Correct, And it turned out to
17:48
Speaker 1: be a real person whose name was ruined by her
17:52
Speaker 1: connection to Top Mom, Casey Anthony and the disappearance of Kelley.
17:57
Speaker 1: She was forever connected to that, and it also waked
18:00
Speaker 1: but a whole lot of Yeah, they defines the night
18:03
Speaker 1: of Gonzalez, who had never met Casey Anthony in her life.
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Speaker 1: So here we've got the same thing as Cheryl McCollum
18:10
Speaker 1: is pointing out, a fabricated story and a refusal to
18:14
Speaker 1: divulge where the children really are. Now by this time
18:20
Speaker 1: there was a search. After Katherine Hoggle leaves the chick
18:24
Speaker 1: fil A. There is a man hunt or should I
18:27
Speaker 1: say a woman hunt for Katherine Hoggle, who to this day,
18:31
Speaker 1: to this moment that you're hearing us here on Syrius
18:35
Speaker 1: Sex in two, if still the key to the case,
18:38
Speaker 1: we still don't have the children. Take a listen to
18:42
Speaker 1: the guy that fortuitously spots Katherine Hoggle. Listen. It was
18:51
Speaker 1: a little after eleven fifteen in the evening. Nicholas Stewart
18:54
Speaker 1: knew there was something unusual about the woman wondering about
18:57
Speaker 1: the parking lot of his Germantown complex as he went
19:00
Speaker 1: to take out the trash, and he couldn't put his
19:02
Speaker 1: finger on it at first. I mean, I see her
19:05
Speaker 1: walking towards me. I didn't think anything. Maybe it was
19:07
Speaker 1: just a resident. Um, I see her pacing back and forth.
19:09
Speaker 1: But the woman's behavior grows more unusual, especially, he says,
19:13
Speaker 1: and she went into a breezeway in the complex. He says,
19:15
Speaker 1: she seemed lost and confused. She went like this. She
19:19
Speaker 1: saw me. She went like this, and then I turned around,
19:22
Speaker 1: and then I see her come out, and she looked
19:24
Speaker 1: like this, and then walked here and then just stopped.
19:28
Speaker 1: He decided to keep an eye on her, and they
19:30
Speaker 1: actually exchanged words or something. Told me to just keep looking,
19:33
Speaker 1: and she asked me for the time. I said, I
19:36
Speaker 1: do not have the time. My phone is actually dead
19:37
Speaker 1: at the time, and she said, thank you. Um, my
19:40
Speaker 1: phone is dead too. Stewart says he ran to his apartment,
19:43
Speaker 1: looked at the flyer again and realized it was indeed
19:45
Speaker 1: Catherine Hargell, the woman lasted scene earlier in the week
19:48
Speaker 1: and calling on camera and surveillance footage. I actually watched
19:52
Speaker 1: one of the surveillance videos of her ten minutes before
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Speaker 1: I spotted lady. Steward says he ran to a nearby
19:56
Speaker 1: police station to get help. They got to the scene
19:58
Speaker 1: at Century Boulevard It in Crystal Rock, driving took Hoggle
20:02
Speaker 1: into custody, so you know, Sheryl White. Sheryl McCollum. It's
20:06
Speaker 1: just dumb luck really, because this guy had just looked
20:12
Speaker 1: at a flyer that was posted, I believe above hit
20:15
Speaker 1: the mailboxes at this apartment complex or this this location structure.
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Speaker 1: He sees the flyer of the two children and Katherine Hoggle.
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Speaker 1: Then he less than a minute passes he sees Hoggle
20:31
Speaker 1: and he he says, she was, you know, acting covertly,
20:34
Speaker 1: just like you said she did in the Chick fil
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Speaker 1: A Sheryl McCollum. He goes up to her. They have
20:39
Speaker 1: a conversation. He says, um, well, I can't use my phone.
20:44
Speaker 1: It's dead. She goes, oh, mind's dead too. She seemed
20:47
Speaker 1: absolutely perfectly normal, Ryl White, completely normal. One thing missing,
20:55
Speaker 1: make that too, the children, Sheryl White. Yeah, the children
20:59
Speaker 1: are still missing. Uh then and now and she she
21:04
Speaker 1: all she'll say is that they are safe and that
21:08
Speaker 1: there with someone else. And there was a chase, a
21:12
Speaker 1: short chase before police could apprehend her, which I find
21:15
Speaker 1: interesting that she ran. Interesting, Sheryl McCollum. When your children
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Speaker 1: are missing, as Sheryl White says, the guy immediately calls
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Speaker 1: the police the number on the flyer. Police show up
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Speaker 1: a chase ensuits. If my children are missing and laying
21:31
Speaker 1: on the front steps of the police station, I'm laying
21:35
Speaker 1: there screaming. She runs from police, Cheryl. She runs from police,
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Speaker 1: and when they get her, she has snatched down one
21:47
Speaker 1: of the flyers that had been posted. She had taken
21:51
Speaker 1: it down so nobody could see it, and it was
21:54
Speaker 1: in her hand, Cheryl when cops get her after she runs,
22:00
Speaker 1: Cheryl wanted away. She doesn't want the children fail, she
22:04
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be captured herself, and again, holding that
22:07
Speaker 1: fire in her hand tells you she didn't want anybody
22:11
Speaker 1: else to find it either. This is where the search
22:14
Speaker 1: for the babies takes a very unusual turn. Of course,
22:19
Speaker 1: Hoggle has taken into custody and questioned about the location
22:22
Speaker 1: and her children. Take a listen to what her husband
22:26
Speaker 1: says regarding the children's disappearance. I want to thank all
22:30
Speaker 1: of you in the community and in the media for
22:32
Speaker 1: all your support you have shown me, myself, Sarah and Jacob,
22:36
Speaker 1: my family throughout the entire process. As I'm sure you understand,
22:41
Speaker 1: it's been a very emotional time for myself and and
22:44
Speaker 1: others who love my family and my children. Uh, I
22:48
Speaker 1: just decided to go ahead and read a prepared statement
22:51
Speaker 1: and then not take questions today. UM, Katherine Hoggle has
22:57
Speaker 1: murdered my children, and I hope there and Jacob get
23:00
Speaker 1: the justice they deserve. I have held out hope that
23:04
Speaker 1: something else may have happened, as I think that any
23:07
Speaker 1: parent under these circumstances would, But it has always been
23:10
Speaker 1: a faint hope. And I know now with the passage
23:13
Speaker 1: of time, that Catherine killed my babies for the From
23:17
Speaker 1: the very beginning of this process three years ago, the
23:20
Speaker 1: Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorneys Office have been
23:23
Speaker 1: very consistent in their theory on this case. I know
23:27
Speaker 1: that they are right, and I fully support the charges
23:30
Speaker 1: handed down here today. I also knew they were UM.
23:34
Speaker 1: I knew there was a good chance they're right from
23:36
Speaker 1: the beginning. In addition to the investigation by the local police,
23:41
Speaker 1: with the support of the family and of family and friends,
23:45
Speaker 1: I've had my own professional private investigator study the facts
23:48
Speaker 1: and UM, this isn't part of the rim part. But UM,
23:51
Speaker 1: in the beginning, they came in with an open mind.
23:53
Speaker 1: After investigating, they came to the same conclusion as the
23:55
Speaker 1: state's turns off the end. The police UM actually hired
23:59
Speaker 1: two or three of I'm kind of like getting the
24:00
Speaker 1: second opinion from a doctor, and they all came back
24:03
Speaker 1: the same. Everyone who has reviewed this agrees that Katherine
24:08
Speaker 1: murdered Sarah and Jacob. I'm sure Jerry will agreed, and
24:12
Speaker 1: I hope Sarah and Jacob get their day in court. UM.
24:17
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's somebody's I'm sorry. I want
24:21
Speaker 1: again to express my sincere thanks to the community and
24:25
Speaker 1: UM to you the media for all your support and
24:27
Speaker 1: everything you guys have done. Uh. Please keep my family,
24:30
Speaker 1: Sarah and Jacob in your prayers. I hope with the
24:33
Speaker 1: charges handed down today, we're moving closer to getting justice
24:36
Speaker 1: for them, and that's what it needs to be about,
24:39
Speaker 1: from beginning to end, and in justice for my babies.
24:42
Speaker 1: Cheryl White with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl McCollum, Director
24:45
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl McCollum. What I
24:50
Speaker 1: mean this is right after she is brought into court
24:54
Speaker 1: by police and she is questioned under oath by the
24:58
Speaker 1: judge about where are your children and she still refuses
25:02
Speaker 1: to say. The husband says to conflicting statements one he
25:07
Speaker 1: believes his wife had been drugged when all this happened. Okay,
25:11
Speaker 1: and too that she's acting that. She says she wants
25:16
Speaker 1: to be found incompetence so she can't be charged with
25:19
Speaker 1: giving away her children. Cheryl McCullum, Now that I think
25:22
Speaker 1: we're getting somewhere, because Nancy, she's been play acting the
25:26
Speaker 1: whole time. She pretended to take Jacob for pizza, she
25:30
Speaker 1: pretended they read a new school. She pretended to go
25:33
Speaker 1: by a coach. That's what she's good at. And when
25:36
Speaker 1: they get closed to her, she tries to escape in
25:39
Speaker 1: some way. She hides her face, she hides her identity.
25:42
Speaker 1: She runs from police. The breaking news that Catherine Hoggle,
25:46
Speaker 1: the mother of the two missing children, was located in
25:49
Speaker 1: Germantown there in Maryland and immediately taken into custody after
25:54
Speaker 1: she leaves them on a brief foot chase. When they
25:57
Speaker 1: get her, Mommy is clutching a flyer that has been posted,
26:01
Speaker 1: tearing it down so nobody else can see the children
26:05
Speaker 1: or the tip line number. She refuses to say what
26:08
Speaker 1: happened to the children. At this moment, police still searching
26:12
Speaker 1: for the two children, Sarah and Jacob. Then they give
26:16
Speaker 1: a statement. They are extremely concerned for the children's welfare.
26:21
Speaker 1: She has taken us all down the garden path, Cheryl McCullum.
26:28
Speaker 1: Just hours after she slips out the back door of
26:30
Speaker 1: a Chick fil A, she boards a county bus near
26:35
Speaker 1: that restaurant, goes down Route one eighteen Germantown Road between
26:40
Speaker 1: Interstate to seventy and goes to the Germantown Commons shopping center.
26:45
Speaker 1: She takes that bus after giving the husband a slip
26:49
Speaker 1: at Chick fil A. She rides the bus to the
26:51
Speaker 1: transit center I told you about to Lake Forest Mall
26:55
Speaker 1: and gets off. She sited there on videotel ape and
27:01
Speaker 1: she is seen going in and out of various locations
27:07
Speaker 1: in that shopping mall. Cheryl McCollum. Then police go there.
27:10
Speaker 1: They go there to retrace her steps, hoping to find
27:13
Speaker 1: a trace of the children. Instead, they found the contents
27:17
Speaker 1: of her pocket book thrown in a bathroom in the building.
27:23
Speaker 1: What does that mean, Cheryl? What's she trying to get
27:25
Speaker 1: rid of her identity? Who she is so when somebody
27:29
Speaker 1: catches her, even if it's in another town or city,
27:32
Speaker 1: she can make up a name and a date of birth.
27:34
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be her. She's got gonna exist anymore.
27:37
Speaker 1: You know, this plot seemingly gets more and more intricate.
27:42
Speaker 1: So we have her, let's retrace it, Cheryl and Cheryl,
27:46
Speaker 1: Cheryl White and Chryl McCullum. We have her with the
27:49
Speaker 1: children alive at her mother's house. We have her father,
27:53
Speaker 1: the children's grandfather, giving her his car. She puts Jacob
27:57
Speaker 1: in the car, claiming they're going for pizza, coming back
28:01
Speaker 1: without him three hours later, stating that he stayed with
28:04
Speaker 1: his friend. She takes the baby away, claiming they're going home.
28:10
Speaker 1: The husband's at the night shift. Whoever she gave baby
28:15
Speaker 1: Jacob too that night or whatever she did with him.
28:19
Speaker 1: She takes the little girl. She leaves with a little girl.
28:24
Speaker 1: The little girl has never seen alive again. The dad
28:26
Speaker 1: gets home from work where the children, Oh, I took
28:29
Speaker 1: him to a new daycare. Nobody's seen the children since
28:33
Speaker 1: the night before Sunday night. They start looking for the daycare,
28:37
Speaker 1: can't find it. She goes into Chick fil A she
28:40
Speaker 1: wants to coke. She slips out the side. She then
28:44
Speaker 1: eludes her husband who's sitting in the parking lot, takes
28:47
Speaker 1: a bus, gets away from him and goes to a
28:51
Speaker 1: shopping center. She goes in and out of several locations.
28:56
Speaker 1: Police find out about it. They go a retrace her steps,
28:59
Speaker 1: they don't find her. They find her pocketbook has been emptied.
29:04
Speaker 1: Why flyers Over ten thousand flyers go up all over town.
29:10
Speaker 1: A guy is looking at the flyer over a mailbox,
29:15
Speaker 1: then turns around to see Katherine Hockle. She has a
29:19
Speaker 1: perfectly normal saying conversation with him. His girlfriend immediately calls police.
29:26
Speaker 1: They come. She leads them on a brief but fast
29:30
Speaker 1: paced foot chase. When they get her, she has torn
29:34
Speaker 1: down the flyer of the children with the tip line.
29:37
Speaker 1: She's taken to police headquarters. She's questioning court. She refuses
29:43
Speaker 1: to say where the children are, and the husband insists
29:47
Speaker 1: she's acting. Listen to what he says one more time.
29:52
Speaker 1: Katherine Hoggle has murdered my children, and I hope Sarah
29:56
Speaker 1: and Jacob get the justice they deserve. I have held
29:59
Speaker 1: out hope that something else may have happened, as I
30:02
Speaker 1: think that any parent under these circumstances would, But it
30:06
Speaker 1: has always been a faint hope, and I know now
30:08
Speaker 1: with the passage of time that Katherine killed my babies
30:12
Speaker 1: for the From the very beginning of this process three
30:15
Speaker 1: years ago, the Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorney's
30:18
Speaker 1: Office have been very consistent in their theory on this case.
30:23
Speaker 1: I know that they are right, and I fully support
30:26
Speaker 1: the charges handed down here today. I also knew they
30:29
Speaker 1: were UM, I knew there was a good chance they're
30:32
Speaker 1: right from the beginning. So where is Jacob? Where is Sarah?
30:38
Speaker 1: Tipline three zero one to seven nine eight thousand. Then
30:43
Speaker 1: and another twist, Cheryl White Crime Stories contributor. She now
30:49
Speaker 1: claims she's paranoise schizophrenic. Okay, her husband says she's acting.
30:57
Speaker 1: The children are still missing. When did that come about?
31:02
Speaker 1: So now we see a mental defect. I mean she
31:05
Speaker 1: told her husband she wants to be found incompetent so
31:07
Speaker 1: she can't be charged or go to jail. What do
31:10
Speaker 1: we know about her claims that paranoise get sophrenia Cheryl White, Well,
31:13
Speaker 1: she has a history of mental issues. Here's Here's something
31:18
Speaker 1: I find extremely odd is that shortly after she was
31:24
Speaker 1: taken into custody, she told her family members that she
31:28
Speaker 1: would take police to her children. Um, but she had
31:32
Speaker 1: to do it personally, So She went to court then
31:37
Speaker 1: to get a judge's okay that she could take them
31:41
Speaker 1: to the children. But that's not what ended up happening. Well,
31:47
Speaker 1: when she got to court, her attorneys said Hoggle is
31:52
Speaker 1: in no mental condition to make the claim to take
31:55
Speaker 1: them on the journey to the children, and that in fact,
31:58
Speaker 1: she did not want to help, and that her condition
32:01
Speaker 1: was so deteriorated she should not even be interrogated. Wow,
32:07
Speaker 1: that's convenient, Cheryl McCullum. So she says, okay, okay, I'm
32:11
Speaker 1: tired of jail. Let me out and I will take
32:14
Speaker 1: you to the children. You know what, do you remember
32:16
Speaker 1: that wild goose chase that top Mom Casey Anthony led
32:20
Speaker 1: police on in the search for uh Zanina Gonzalez. They
32:26
Speaker 1: went all over town. They went to sell aggress apartments.
32:29
Speaker 1: She claims she worked at Universal Man she had it down.
32:32
Speaker 1: She even got to the security entrance and told them
32:37
Speaker 1: that she worked there, and they're like, wow, we can't
32:40
Speaker 1: find you on the employee list, and she goes, yeah,
32:42
Speaker 1: I did work here. Hey, you can call my my
32:44
Speaker 1: co employees. And she gave names and phone numbers extensions
32:49
Speaker 1: her names of people that worked at Universal and the
32:54
Speaker 1: security was calling them, and so police are onto so
32:58
Speaker 1: they take her in and and they get all the
33:01
Speaker 1: way up to the door and they're going into Universal,
33:03
Speaker 1: and she says, okay, ah, you got me, like it's
33:07
Speaker 1: some kind of a game. I do not really work
33:10
Speaker 1: at Universal anymore. And all this time she had been
33:12
Speaker 1: sitting on her parents sofa, eating their food out of
33:15
Speaker 1: their fridge and letting them take care of the baby,
33:17
Speaker 1: claiming she worked at Universal. She would even put on
33:20
Speaker 1: an Universal outfit with tags old I D tags and
33:26
Speaker 1: leave to go lay up at her boyfriend's apartment. So
33:30
Speaker 1: it's such a charade. And Cheryl McCullum, it sounds like
33:34
Speaker 1: the same thing with Katherine Hoggle. Yeah, I think Katherine's
33:38
Speaker 1: overplaying her hands a little bit, because you know Nancy
33:41
Speaker 1: better than me. Schizophrenic doesn't mean you don't go to jail.
33:45
Speaker 1: The one reason you're gonna stay out of jail is
33:47
Speaker 1: if you can demonstrate you don't know right from wrong. Well,
33:51
Speaker 1: she's already to me proven beautifully she knows what she's
33:54
Speaker 1: done is wrong again, from trying to hide her face
33:58
Speaker 1: to running from the police, to want to involve the
34:00
Speaker 1: police and not calling number one one to take him
34:03
Speaker 1: down the poster. She knew. So now this is her
34:07
Speaker 1: latest game. Well, let me tell you a little story. Okay, Alan, dieca,
34:13
Speaker 1: hear you groaning in the background, But Alan, I want
34:16
Speaker 1: some My boss the longest serving district attorney in the
34:20
Speaker 1: country at that time it was Louis Slayton. And oh boy,
34:26
Speaker 1: let me tell you. Louis Slayton was like a grandfather
34:30
Speaker 1: to me. You know, when I first started prosecuting, women
34:34
Speaker 1: and minorities were not in many jurisdictions allowed to try cases.
34:38
Speaker 1: They would be relegated to child support recovery. You know,
34:41
Speaker 1: deadbeat dads Cheryl McCullum, remember this. Or they'd have to
34:45
Speaker 1: go to ju V g V g V court where
34:48
Speaker 1: there were no juries um, or you'd write appeals. Not
34:52
Speaker 1: Mr Slayton. If you could try a case, he'd put
34:56
Speaker 1: you in front of a jury. So I manage to
35:00
Speaker 1: beg my way in to the courtroom. And I had
35:06
Speaker 1: a guy one day, let's just slate and call him.
35:08
Speaker 1: He goes, we got a problem. I'm like, what what
35:10
Speaker 1: is he? Guys, I want you to handle this case.
35:12
Speaker 1: Come out of the courtroom and focus on this case.
35:15
Speaker 1: I'm not great. There was a woman who had apparently
35:20
Speaker 1: committed suicide. And I didn't know exactly what he wanted
35:27
Speaker 1: me to do, but you know, I started with going
35:29
Speaker 1: to the crime lab and looking at the evidence. And
35:33
Speaker 1: I met with this old guy. He had an accent
35:37
Speaker 1: much worse than mine, believe it or not, and we
35:39
Speaker 1: put the bed sheets. She had was naked and had
35:44
Speaker 1: laid down in the bed and shot herself in the head.
35:47
Speaker 1: And we were just standing there looking at them, and
35:49
Speaker 1: he had a light behind them. We were looking at them.
35:51
Speaker 1: They were hanging up like a poster, and we noticed
35:56
Speaker 1: he noticed, I'm going to give him the credit, there
35:59
Speaker 1: was a blood spatch her underneath where the pillow had been. Obviously,
36:07
Speaker 1: it was not a suicide. First of all, women, if
36:10
Speaker 1: you look at the method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
36:15
Speaker 1: you would know it's extremely rare for a woman to
36:18
Speaker 1: shoot herself in the head or the chest, but specially
36:22
Speaker 1: the head. Second, never, never, never, very rarely does a
36:27
Speaker 1: female commit suicide without her clothes on. Don't ask me why,
36:31
Speaker 1: this is just what I know by statistics. So right
36:35
Speaker 1: then we knew, and as I had suspected, this was
36:38
Speaker 1: no suicide. Okay, so immediately start looking at the husband.
36:43
Speaker 1: I fine do a whole handful of subpoenas and start
36:48
Speaker 1: stalking his friends and colleagues. I mean sitting out in
36:52
Speaker 1: the parking lot waiting for them to come out of
36:53
Speaker 1: work behind cars. And when they come out of hand him, uh,
36:58
Speaker 1: subpoena ducas chicke And which is is paying it for documents?
37:01
Speaker 1: For any letters he has written them? Well, guess what
37:07
Speaker 1: he writes. Simmons says, um, something about they're gonna find
37:13
Speaker 1: if they decide if they believe that I killed my wife.
37:16
Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure they think that I'm crazy,
37:19
Speaker 1: and I'll just stay in the crazy house for a
37:23
Speaker 1: few years making sand sculptures and you know how you
37:29
Speaker 1: pour sand into a little bottle and make a picture
37:32
Speaker 1: and at the end and then I'll get out and
37:35
Speaker 1: keep it cool and ps and don't kill your wife. Okay,
37:41
Speaker 1: you know we had no money. I had to pay
37:43
Speaker 1: my own money to go to Kinko's to turn all
37:46
Speaker 1: of his letters into giant posters. The joy I felt
37:52
Speaker 1: when I put up all those posters in the courtroom
37:56
Speaker 1: and would go through each one word for word. I
38:01
Speaker 1: was so happy. So here you go. Now she's paranoid schizophrenic. Um.
38:10
Speaker 1: I still don't know where the children are. The most
38:12
Speaker 1: recent development is there has been a charge, a charge
38:19
Speaker 1: against the mother, Katherine Hoggle, that has gone down in
38:23
Speaker 1: the last weeks. The schizophrenic, allegedly schizophrenic mother thirty years
38:29
Speaker 1: old of two missing children has now been charged with murder.
38:36
Speaker 1: Katherine Hoggle, aged thirty, has been indicted on two counts
38:39
Speaker 1: a first degree murder, accused of killing her two year
38:43
Speaker 1: old son and her three year old daughter. I want
38:50
Speaker 1: to go to you, Cheryl McCollum. They've never been found.
38:55
Speaker 1: The people she allegedly gave her children to have never
39:00
Speaker 1: been found. How do we know they weren't sold. How
39:04
Speaker 1: do we know she didn't just give them away? There's nobody.
39:10
Speaker 1: How is she charged with murder? Cheryl? Well, it's a
39:15
Speaker 1: nobody homicide case, Nancy. And what we do know is
39:19
Speaker 1: at this point years have gone by, the children would
39:23
Speaker 1: have started school to whoever she gave the children to
39:26
Speaker 1: would have had to take them to school, to the doctor,
39:29
Speaker 1: other places. At this point, they know a manhunt has
39:32
Speaker 1: been going over for the children. This couple, if they existed,
39:36
Speaker 1: would have come forward in some way. They haven't done
39:39
Speaker 1: anything wrong. But they're not raising two children with you know,
39:43
Speaker 1: no paperword, no birth certificate or anything like that. It's
39:46
Speaker 1: not true. So again, common sense tells us by her actions,
39:51
Speaker 1: trying to escape all the time, trying to hide her identity,
39:54
Speaker 1: trying to hide out in a mental institution, that she
39:58
Speaker 1: has done something horrible with these two children. We are
40:02
Speaker 1: posting right now on crime online dot com an artist impression,
40:08
Speaker 1: an age progression of what the children would look like today,
40:15
Speaker 1: if alive. We're getting this from National Center of Missing
40:19
Speaker 1: and Exploited Children, and you can see that on crime
40:23
Speaker 1: online dot com. As of right now, these two children
40:28
Speaker 1: have been deemed murder victims. Do we know if any
40:32
Speaker 1: evidence was found, such as blood, um, their clothing, a
40:38
Speaker 1: shallow grave, anything to suggest that they are dead? Sheryl White, Well,
40:44
Speaker 1: what I do know is that state's attorney, John McCarthy says,
40:48
Speaker 1: we would never have filed the charges indicted her onto
40:52
Speaker 1: murder charges if we didn't feel we have a case.
40:55
Speaker 1: Take a listen to what the state attorney in Montgomery
40:58
Speaker 1: County has to say. Under Maryland law, an individual charged
41:03
Speaker 1: with only misdemeanors can only be hospitalized and detained and
41:08
Speaker 1: a formal hospital slash prison setting for a maximum period
41:13
Speaker 1: of three years. She has been incarcerated in that facility,
41:19
Speaker 1: essentially receiving evaluations on a regular basis for her competency
41:24
Speaker 1: to stand trial over the last three years. The deadline
41:28
Speaker 1: for those three years came today. Uh, the court today
41:34
Speaker 1: would have had to dismiss the charges against her, and
41:38
Speaker 1: we would have had to release Miss Hoggle as a
41:40
Speaker 1: matter of law because she could not be held any
41:43
Speaker 1: longer on those misdemeanors. Therefore, we sought an indictment from
41:49
Speaker 1: the grand jury yesterday charging her with the two counts
41:52
Speaker 1: of murder. Again, there was no advantage to moving forward.
41:55
Speaker 1: I will tell you that as long and I think
41:57
Speaker 1: I publicly said this before up, as long as there's
42:00
Speaker 1: not an indictment, you are allowed to continue to use
42:03
Speaker 1: a grand jury for the purposes of a criminal investigation.
42:07
Speaker 1: Once you indict a case, you lose that option, You
42:11
Speaker 1: lose that right. That was an investigative tool that we
42:14
Speaker 1: had available to us. It did not make any sense
42:17
Speaker 1: if she remained incompetent to lose that tool well because
42:22
Speaker 1: of the law that would have dictated she would become
42:25
Speaker 1: free without any ability for us to check on her
42:28
Speaker 1: whereabouts or her medical station. It became incumbent on us
42:32
Speaker 1: to take the additional step to seek the indictment for
42:36
Speaker 1: the two counts of murder that we did yesterday. The
42:39
Speaker 1: laws now changed in terms of how long we can
42:42
Speaker 1: halt her for the purposes of the evaluation. Miss Hoggle
42:45
Speaker 1: can now be held five years now charged with the
42:49
Speaker 1: felony for the purposes of the doctors to attempt to
42:53
Speaker 1: restore her to competency. Composing just basically means you have
42:57
Speaker 1: to have a basic understanding of the nature of the
42:59
Speaker 1: charge it against. You don't have to be able to
43:01
Speaker 1: assist your attorney in defending yourself. This has nothing to
43:04
Speaker 1: do with her guilt or innocence. Like I am tremendously frustrated,
43:09
Speaker 1: and I've said this in court before. Am I frustrated
43:11
Speaker 1: that we were here three years into this and she's
43:13
Speaker 1: not been a restored to competency? Absolutely? I am Why
43:17
Speaker 1: am I frustrated? Well, she's been Look, this is a
43:20
Speaker 1: woman who had a and again I'm talking about things
43:23
Speaker 1: that are in the public record. This was a young
43:26
Speaker 1: woman who had had prior hospitalizations, She had been identified
43:29
Speaker 1: with psychiatric issues prior to the disappearance of her kids.
43:33
Speaker 1: She had been in various hospitals, she had been restored
43:36
Speaker 1: to competency before through psychotropic medications and reintroduced back into
43:40
Speaker 1: the community. I had every hope when she went to
43:44
Speaker 1: purpose three years ago that we would have that same
43:47
Speaker 1: thing occur. She would fall into the care of psychiatrists,
43:50
Speaker 1: they would determine what her need was, and they would
43:53
Speaker 1: begin through a regiment of medications to restore competency that
43:56
Speaker 1: would allow us to move forward. So I am tremendouslyrustrated,
44:00
Speaker 1: as I can tell you. Look, I'm sure any member
44:03
Speaker 1: of the family on either side of this will tell
44:07
Speaker 1: you above all, they are tremendously frustrated. They knew the
44:10
Speaker 1: psychiatric history, they knew about the restoration of competency in
44:14
Speaker 1: other cases, and they want to know why hasn't the
44:16
Speaker 1: hospital been able to do that. It's a frustration for
44:19
Speaker 1: all of us. But again, we've just taken steps legally
44:23
Speaker 1: to give them additional time to do that. And I
44:26
Speaker 1: don't think we had any other option but to seek
44:29
Speaker 1: the indictment we saw it yesterday. It was the only
44:31
Speaker 1: way to adequately I think protect the public and protect
44:36
Speaker 1: some individual people in particularly back to Cheryl McCollum, director
44:40
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute Cheryl For the longest time,
44:45
Speaker 1: Katherine Huggle stays at a cushy psych facility repeatedly attempting
44:52
Speaker 1: to escape, and then when she's caught trying to escape,
44:56
Speaker 1: she says she wants to go see her children, and
44:57
Speaker 1: she'll leave police to her children in order or to
45:00
Speaker 1: get out. What do you make of that, Sheryl McCollum,
45:02
Speaker 1: The key is eight times she is attempted to escape.
45:07
Speaker 1: If she wanted her children to be okay, she would
45:10
Speaker 1: tell them where to go get them and let the
45:12
Speaker 1: children be So what does this say to you? Every
45:14
Speaker 1: time she wants to get out she says she'll lead
45:16
Speaker 1: the police to her children. That doesn't sound crazy to me.
45:19
Speaker 1: It sounds like a stunt to me. That sounds like,
45:22
Speaker 1: if you let me out, I will do something for you.
45:25
Speaker 1: That's the contortion. Another issue, to Sheryl White Crime Stories contributor,
45:30
Speaker 1: is this charge has just come down because the legal
45:34
Speaker 1: time limit the statute of limitations on the three misdemeanors
45:40
Speaker 1: the child neglect misdemeanors that she had been charged with
45:43
Speaker 1: initially were about to give out, which means she would
45:47
Speaker 1: have walked free, Okay, right after they go missing. You've got, like,
45:53
Speaker 1: you know, a year or so on the statute of
45:56
Speaker 1: limitations on misdemeanors is one to three years, and once
46:01
Speaker 1: that ends and you haven't been prosecuted, you walk free,
46:06
Speaker 1: of course, unless you filed a demand for speedy trial,
46:08
Speaker 1: which she did not. So she's about to walk free
46:11
Speaker 1: and this murder charge comes down. Is that the way
46:13
Speaker 1: it goes, Sheryl White, That's the way it goes exactly.
46:16
Speaker 1: So time was running out. So she was indicted on
46:20
Speaker 1: two counts of murder for the two missing children, and
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Speaker 1: now she can be held for five years under medical care.
46:27
Speaker 1: Now that she's been indicted on the murder charges, she
46:30
Speaker 1: can only be held for five years if she is
46:36
Speaker 1: deemed incompetent. So I guess the first step Cheryl McCollum
46:41
Speaker 1: is going to be a competency trial that is not
46:45
Speaker 1: necessarily a trial on the merits of the case. Is
46:47
Speaker 1: simply to determine whether she is competent. That does not
46:51
Speaker 1: go to insanity. It's very simply, can you aid your
46:56
Speaker 1: lawyer during your trial? Are you competent enough to help
47:01
Speaker 1: your lawyer get through the trial? That's all this year.
47:04
Speaker 1: He is Cheryl, That's all it is. And I think
47:06
Speaker 1: it is imperative that the prosecution get their own doctor
47:11
Speaker 1: to examine her, not the folks from this institute that
47:15
Speaker 1: she's been at. Why do you say that, because you
47:17
Speaker 1: need to have somebody that is just seeing her in
47:19
Speaker 1: evaluating her from right now, not the people that have
47:23
Speaker 1: already bought into her game. They there, they already have
47:26
Speaker 1: their mind made up. The search for the children goes
47:30
Speaker 1: on as of right now, these two children still missing.
47:36
Speaker 1: Last seen when her husband wakes up to find all
47:40
Speaker 1: three of them no longer in their home. She comes
47:44
Speaker 1: back in the minivan without the children. Where where are
47:51
Speaker 1: Jacob and Sarah? Are they dead? Are alive? Nancy Grace
47:57
Speaker 1: Crime Story, signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself
48:08
Speaker 1: obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a
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