Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / How a Life-Threatening Diagnosis Transformed Big Law Dreams
Transcript
- Unknown Speaker 0:03 Hi and welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer Podcast. I'm Davina Frederick. And my guest today is Heather moulder. I'm so excited to have her here. I'm a fan of her podcast, the it is life and law podcast. And her company is course correction coaching. So we have a lot to talk about today. She is an attorney. I'm going to ask her her story, she's going to get into it and tell us how she got from being a very successful attorney to moving into being this podcast host and starting her own coaching business. So welcome, Heather. It's great to talk with you. Unknown Speaker 0:38 Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. I've been listening to your podcast, I found it. I think it was late last summer. And I've been listening to it pretty regularly ever since. And it's helped me a lot. So I think I think what I originally reached out to you, I mentioned this before, but I want to mention this again, it's great for lawyers, but it's also great for entrepreneurs. Unknown Speaker 0:59 Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that I really, I really like to talk about business and the business of, of law. And and obviously, if you are a service professional that can be applicable, a lot of things that we discussed can be applicable because I really focused on business principles and getting people to talk about their business experience. So I'm really glad you found it and that you've enjoyed it. Thank you for the little shout out. I appreciate it. So I want to talk about you and your journey. So why don't you start out by telling us so people have a sense of who you are, and sort of what got you here because your story is really is really special and amazing. So I'd love for you to tell us about it. So start out just tell us how you decided to be a lawyer. And Unknown Speaker 1:44 so this is going to date me. I don't know if you've ever heard this. But do you remember the Paperchase we always a movie back in the 70s. And then there was a television show that followed up that I was not really old enough to get into the movie. But the TV show when it was airing on Showtime, I think in the early 80s. I started watching it as a young child. And for whatever reason it fascinated me and kind of planted the seed, I think for becoming a lawyer. And then my mom later a couple years later had a good friend who was in the Coast Guard who was doing. We lived in Houston, Texas. And he was going to night school law school and found out that I was really intrigued by the law. And so he took me to some classes, which then further got me excited. I just found it challenging and interesting. And kind of one of those things that kind of set me on that path. And of course, as I think most natural born lawyers are I was really into negotiating anything and everything I could. The time I was young on which sadly one of my children has picked up on that one too, and wants to be a lawyer. Surprise, surprise. But if he would tell me all the time, oh my gosh, you should be a lawyer. Because I think she had everything. So I think it was just almost destined for it. Even though I didn't quite look at it that way and I had nobody in my family were lawyers. So it was just kind of one of those things that I latched on to very, very early on. Unknown Speaker 3:10 It's so interesting. I absolutely remember Paperchase. You and I are probably close to the same age. And I remember river well and in fact, I had one of my law professors in law school reminded me so much of that main law house master John Unknown Speaker 3:28 Houseman character Yeah. Unknown Speaker 3:31 Oh my gosh, I had a law professor who was like that throughout law school. And I was and I always reflected back to Paperchase. I was like, Oh, this is so terrifying. Job to watch that. Oh, my gosh, it was terrifying when I did it in law school. So tell us you decided to become a lawyer and work there law school and what? What was your first job out of law school? Did you know so you kind of learn to be? Well, I was Unknown Speaker 3:58 one of those people who really thought I was going to be a litigator early on, and totally turn out not to be a litigator at all. I am. And I think that's because you know, that's what you see on TV. And that's that's what you think of as a lawyer. A lot of times growing up. But once I got into law school, and I went to ended up going to U of H myself, for family reasons, I had a grandfather who I was very, very close to who was not in good health. And they lived in Houston and I wanted to be close to him. And I by far was the best decision I ever made probably my life because he passed away the week before I graduated. So I got a lot of time those last three years with him and really enjoyed my time at U of H probably because I was ready to move on from being in college and it was more of a commuter school. And so it was really good for what I needed at that time. But realized very quickly that the classes that I really loved were business contracts, you know, business law type stuff, UCC, all this All this stuff for the business lawyers were the ones I really loved. And I liked the con law stuff. But I knew I didn't really want to practice that. So ultimately, by the time I started looking into where I wanted to work, I started talking about wanting to try corporate law, finance, law, that kind of stuff. And that's ultimately what I ended up doing. I ended up going into a big Texas firm at the time, when I graduated, there were hardly any firms in Texas that weren't Texas firms that you didn't have the big national law firms were not here, Texas had this really weird market where they kind of held on to their own for a long time. And it wasn't until after a couple years after I started practicing that the big, big law, what's known as Big law really broke in so the Texas firms were very big law, like though they were old line firms that have been around forever, pretty big for Texas, only firms. And I joined one of those and practice there for five years before moving into a big law law firm, and always did some form of corporate finance over the type of Finance law I did did change over time. And Texas, it was very energy based for the first couple of years. And then I decided that's not really what I wanted my practice to be, I didn't want it to be just energy. Because it's very cyclical, very up very down and went into a big law firm, so that I could kind of do my own thing, figure out how to create my own practice and get out of only energy related work. So Unknown Speaker 6:33 right, right. And so when you went to the big law firm, tell me about Tell me about your big law firm experience, because it's something that a lot of people talk about negatively? No. And yeah, I think there I think there are good means like everything else is probably good and bad to it. So they're probably things you really loved about that. Sort of chafed with you. Unknown Speaker 6:57 Yeah. And I would say it really started in that Texas firm, because it was very big law. Like as far as attitude and culture. I had kind of a crisis, the first couple of years of practice where I had this idea of what practicing law would be like, and it didn't end up being anything like what I was actually living. I remember there was a year I think it was my third or fourth year of practice, where I could have count on one hand, the number of days I did not work that year, that included holidays and weekends, y'all. I mean, it was horrible. And I was like, at 90 hour, work weeks were normal. We were just crazy busy. And I remember looking at you know, the moment that it really hit me that I can't do this anymore, something's broken. And I thought it was the law firm and the legal environment. It was all them, right? Nothing about me. But I was coming home, it was a couple of weeks before Christmas. And it was late at night, all the twinkling Christmas lights were out. And Christmas is usually the time of year I just love, right. But I was just hating my life at that time. And the most wonderful time of the year came on in the background, and I just burst into tears like I can't do this anymore. So I went home. And I started complaining to my husband. And sadly, it was probably like the millionth time I'd complained to him in a couple year period. And he he'd had it was just like, like, do something about it already, you know. And so he kind of looked at me, I was like Heather, you know, you have a choice. And so that was the beginning of me kind of rethinking. The law is broken, the law firms are broken and realizing a lot of it was on me. And I needed to change kind of how I was making decisions for myself and what I was doing. And I will say needless to say the comment he made did not go over well in the moment. But I woke up the next morning going. He's right. Like I need to like rethink this. Unknown Speaker 8:50 And so what I know when they're why spouses are right, Unknown Speaker 8:53 I know it's hard, right? We don't like to admit that, especially as lawyers, and and especially because he's not a lawyer. So I want to you know, I always wanted to be writing the winner of all arguments. But I woke up the next morning, and I didn't really know what to do about it. But I knew that I needed to change something about how I was dealing with people. And so what I started doing was looking around and really paying attention to who's happy, who's not. And I realized there are some happy lawyers. And there was a difference in how they treated their career. And their clients and their colleagues versus the ones who didn't. And there were real boundaries that they had. They had very clear value systems that they created those boundaries around. And so they had a very clear kind of vision for who they were, what they wanted, why they wanted it. And they did not apologize or feel bad about saying no, or you know, and so that kind of taught me oh, I need to figure out what it is. I really want. I need to redefine what success means because my success definition up to that point was very external focus. You know, how much money do I make? Do I have a nice house, a car? I mean, I grew up not with a lot of money. And so that kind of spurred me into that. And I realized it's not really about the money so much as control and working for the right people. And this is actually what spurred me to eventually leave that firm. Because I realized I'm not in the industry I want to be I'm not you know, that it took me a little while I had to kind of reevaluate what are my values? And how do I want to define success? And so then to actually answer your question about big law, I went into that I was much more wide open. And understanding, here's what I want my career life look like five years from now. 10 years from now I had a vision. And I do want to say I knew the vision was going to change because it changes right over time. So it wasn't like this lockstep, but I had a vision that I could at least utilize, that was very values based, that I wanted my career to look like, and I wanted my life to look like, and that's where I'd really messed up before I'd always been focused on my career, my career, my career, not how did it integrate with my life, and my relationships, and all these other things that I wanted out of my life? Because we want more than just successful careers. Unknown Speaker 11:10 Right, absolutely. Unknown Speaker 11:11 And so I was able to navigate big law way better than a lot of people tend to, because I was so clear on that. And I had real boundaries with colleagues and I had real boundaries with clients. And not to say, I never worked a lot, or, you know, because there are times in finance attorneys life up around the holidays is not usually the best, everything has to close your end. And so I knew from like, end of September until like a week or two out into January, things are going to be busier than I would have loved them to be during the holidays. But I still maintain some semblance of balance. It's not like I worked 90 plus hour weeks, it's not you know, I still turn stuff down if it got too busy. And yeah, I turn work down upon occasion from actual clients, real clients and great clients from time to time. But that was because I had such an overriding sense for not just what I wanted out of my career, but who I wanted to be and how I wanted to show up every day. And I knew that if I took on too much, Unknown Speaker 12:16 I'd become this Unknown Speaker 12:18 difficult, overbearing, needy person, because I wasn't meeting my own needs, that was not fun to be around, and ultimately would turn people away and off over time. And that's not who I want it to be. So let me ask you showing up Unknown Speaker 12:33 like that, in a culture that doesn't really reward that, because, you know, they're sorry, if you've read the ABA publication they put out last year walking out the door. But it talks about how about women leaving big law in their 50s, because they're just burned out, they just had enough, they don't get the level of support, they don't get the mentorship, they don't get the good cases. And I think so many of us, I mean, growing up working, like for me, my professional career was in the 90s. You know, that's when I started my professional career. And it was a different culture. At that time, you know, we had work working girl was out and you know, like, these, all this, this idea that we were all supposed to work, you know, just unrelenting, unrelenting manner, to make the big money and all of that. And you're kind of you know, in a lot of organizations, especially with legal industry, you'd be punished for not in it for not going along with that culture. Did you ever experience anything like that? Did you ever have pushback from partners or you know, any comments about you working part time? At your 50 hours? Unknown Speaker 13:44 You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I didn't. And here's why. So a couple of things, I think that people need to understand. Number one, not every firm is the same. There really are different cultures. And I think I was in a really good office, within the firm that I was in as well. Not every office is the same. So I would encourage people who are in that scenario to seek out, you know, if you want to stay within a bigger, firm environment, know that there are different cultures, get to know people within those and find out what it's really like, because I think there are definite differences. That's the first thing. The second thing though, is, were there people like that in my firm? Yes, they're everywhere. They're in every law firm, right? Because lawyers are notoriously this way. And one of the things I learned in the first firm I was at is I had a lot more of that there when I tried to fish back initially. And I learned how to navigate and create my own space and create when I say my own space, not just by myself, me but create a network of people and supporters and advocates who understood what I brought to the table, who valued me for what I did, who you know, and and so I, I created a network of people who would support me no matter what, because they saw me as very valuable. And I do think there are those people out there. But you have to be very intentional and strategic about seeking those people out and really developing long term strong relationships with them. And it can help a lot, because it kind of helps to it's like your armor around you. And so I did that I learned that I needed to do that in that first firm and was starting to do it. But it was really hard. And part of it is because I'd created the monster that was right, I'd said yes to everything, I had no boundaries, and they were really pushing back on that on need starting to create that because they weren't used to it. And that was part of why I left it was just going to be easier to do it in a new spot. And in the new spot, I sought out people who were peers, who were a couple steps ahead of me and who are way ahead of me, who I could develop relationships with. And it it isn't overnight, it took me probably three years to really feel like I fully had that. But over that three year period, I was constantly getting to know people judging them, figuring them out and figuring out who could be the people I really want to form stronger relationships with and work with more. And so you do that, and you can start working with them more and more, and show up and be valuable and provide the value that you do. And you know, that's that's one of the things that I hope some of my clients with who are kind of mid to upper tier associates trying to make partner, but they don't want to kill themselves. So it's, it's it was very effective. Unknown Speaker 16:41 I do think there is a there is a very different generations, Gen X, Gen Z coming out on this are our people who are viewing the world differently, because they've seen parents sacrifice and be unhappy and sacrifice a lot of things. And so they're they're looking at the world in a different way. And so I do think that the work world and big law, in particular, are going are going to have to find a way to make accommodations and interests and all of that, because I just don't think I think you got to watch people that just start going to put up with it, which is wonderful to see. Because it certainly, you know, in the 90s it just wasn't that way and you get along if you weren't. But tell me then how long did you stay there? And what led you out of out of being an attorney? or Unknown Speaker 17:40 so? And it's a kind of a lengthy answer, but I have a feeling you already know the answer. So yeah. But okay, so if somebody had said to me 10 years ago, will you be doing this in the future? 10 years from now, 20 years from now, I'll be like, oh, yeah, of course, because I was very happy. With my practice with my clients with my firm, I really didn't see me not practicing law for at least the 40, you know, 10 2050 years from now. But in January of 2012, when my two boys, and they were six and two, at the time, I was diagnosed with an aggressive breast cancer. And the prognosis was really not great at the outset. Because it was so fast growing and so weird looking. It was something that the doctors just didn't see very often. And it was kind of cancer, but it's called triple negative, which basically means they test for, you've probably heard about her to positive estrogen, receptive all that stuff, it tests negative for all of those things they've identified. And there are no separate treatments for it. It's just chemo and surgery. And so I was given that diagnosis, I was told that they expected it and spread some because it was so fast growing. And if it had spread outside of kind of the immediate area, that would have been a death sentence. Sadly, it you just people don't live through that. In fact, the I think the average lifespan at the time of my diagnosis of somebody, when that happened is nine months. So I the first week and a half before I found out that it hadn't spread. We thought it might be a death sentence. And I didn't realize it at the time. But there is something that changes within you. When you look at your life in that way. Yeah. And I remember thinking the biggest things that came to me were what are my kids going to remember? Barbie is my two year old leaving an unknown me like Will he remember who I am if I die in the next year, that was the ever present kind of thought and yet my other boy was, you know, very young. And so you know, what will he remember? How much of meat will he remember? And so all of that really sat with me now I took I was really really lucky. Because the firm I was at was amazing. And my clients were amazing. And they all stuck with me even though I did not work. Like, I left, I walked away. Basically the day I found out, I handed everything over to fellow partners and, and my team and said, Take over, I don't know when or if I'll be back. And I walked away. And I probably talked to people for 20 to 30 minutes per week thereafter, just to check in to make sure they were taken care of. But I did no actual work. For the next like 910 months, I wanted to focus on fighting cancer and getting healthy. And thankfully, after seven months of chemo, and a bilateral mastectomy, and a bunch of other surgeries, I was pronounced cancer free. And so when I came back, I came back part time because chemo and me did not agree very well, my body was kind of beat up. And I probably worked part time for like six months, and then started getting back into full time and taking my practice over completely. And I was all in on going back to normal. And which is funny, because I hear a lot of people talking about that now right after what we've been through with the pandemic. And I really hate to break it to you, there's no such thing because things like this and the pandemic and cancer or whatever, it changes you as a human. And it's very natural, though, to fight against that and say no, I just wanted to go back to the way life was before, as if this never happened. And so I spent the next year and a half trying to do that. And Unknown Speaker 21:35 slowly felt more and more disassociated with myself. I mean, I almost felt like I was this person from above, watching my life play out in front of me. And it wasn't me. Like, it looks like me, sounded like me, but didn't feel like me anymore. And I didn't really know what that meant. And so finally, I had a conversation with my Well, my husband looked at me one day and said, do you even want to be married to me anymore? Which was like, Oh, my God, why are you saying this to me? Of course I do. But what I didn't realize is because all this chaos is going on inside of me. It was impacting everything. My relationships, especially with the person, you know, who I want to spend the rest of my life with. It was it was changing me. And so that was the impetus yet again, my husband's saying something to me that I needed to kind of go inward and figure out okay, how have I changed? What does this mean? What do I want moving forward. And when I started that process, I did not expect that I was going to never practice law again. And that that was where it was going to lead me. But ultimately, after looking inward and kind of looking to my values, I realized that a new value kind of popped up for me based on that experience and an old value that had always been there was still there. But it changed a little bit how I wanted to show up to represent that value really had changed for me. And so service has always been a big thing within me, my grandfather, who I mentioned earlier was big on service and really imparted that value into me. And forever. Just doing my best and showing up for my clients was enough. That's what service meant to me. But this new kind of flavor of wanting to really help people live better lives. And you know, knowing how many people had been like me, and you know, whether they were lawyers or somebody else like getting on this treadmill of the like that we call work and following the path that we think we're supposed to, but yet not being very happy being very unfulfilled. I didn't want people to end up there. And I knew I could help them. And so that's ultimately what led me into coaching. Unknown Speaker 23:37 Right, right. I can't imagine what a traumatic experience must have been to get such news because it wasn't it sounds like it wasn't even kind of that I imagined that everybody gets cancer diagnosis has that first response of oh my god, is this a death sentence? Right. In your case? They really were saying this is Unknown Speaker 24:00 not good. Yeah, yeah. It's it's really, um, you don't expect your doctors to freak out. But they were freaking out like you. You could see them freaking out and they were pushing like, so I got called. I got my test. I went in for the biopsy on a Tuesday morning. I was told it'll be five to seven business days before the results are back. Two days later, I got the phone call. She didn't even have a written report. She called me my doctor called me because the pathologist who was looking at it called her immediately and said, I don't have a written report yet but here's what I'm seeing. You need to get her in like now. Like so it was like this train effect. And my doctor basically said, You are handing over your work today. Do not go back to work tomorrow. You're handing your work today. I'm getting you in tomorrow for a CT scan. You know, I have somebody who can meet with you on Monday. You know, an oncologist I mean, it was like boom, boom, boom, and it's not usually that fast. Freaky Unknown Speaker 25:00 Yeah, that had to be terrified. Unknown Speaker 25:02 I had to be terrified. Yes, yes. Um, you know, there was this moment I remember. So I'm having all my work over. And I remember sitting down, and I pretty much handed everything over. And I had finally had a moment to think. And I thought back to my grandfather's funeral, the grandfather who had that service value, and I think this is the beginning of that change. But I didn't realize that at the time, he had impacted so many people in his life that I remember going to his funeral. And it was like standing room only in this huge church and all these people I've never knew he didn't packed it wanted to be there to pay their respects. And I flashed forward, what will who will be at mine? What will they say about me? And it's not that anybody would have said anything bad, but nobody, not that many people would never show up that, you know, I mean, I had a very small little group of people. And I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I like that. So I think I think that was the see that kind of started to change that value for me. Unknown Speaker 26:04 You feel you felt like you wanted to make a bigger impact in the world than yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So was there a part that figured into it? That was sort of the reducing stress, because the name of your podcast is life and law. So um, I know that being a being an attorney is a very stressful is why I left day to day practices, I found it to be really stressful to sort of always be in an adversarial kind of situation, and I wanted to make a change and have have, it's just something I didn't want to live with every day. And I and I often wonder how that impacts health as well. For me, it impacted my health, not obviously not in a serious series of gerth. What Yeah, situation was, but I, you know, I had a health response to what I was doing at a physical and, and then a lot of other things in my life sort of go into seed. And I just realized it wasn't for it wasn't something that I wanted for my life. Right, right. And so for you, What, did you ever have that sort of moment for yourself where you said, What can I do? I'm an amateur, because one of the issues that a lot of attorneys have is, I work so hard to become an attorney. Yeah. And I'm a lawyer. And that's my identity, and it's who I am and what I do. Did you have that moment where you know that? Because I know I struggled with that for a long time, and had a lot of conversations with people about it. I have put so much into it, and everything. So did you have those conversations? Did you have those thoughts and try to struggle? Unknown Speaker 27:50 I do. I did. Um, although I don't. I had them for sure. But they didn't hold me back as much as they tend to hold most attorneys back. And I think it's because of what I went through. Like, I kind of would be like, Yeah, but Heather, come on, like, look at what you've been through. Look at all, you know, I felt like I'd been saved, like I shouldn't have been I almost felt guilty for a while that I'd made it through because so many people don't. And I felt like okay, I owe it to people to try to do something to help people in a different way. Because I feel so strongly about this. Like, maybe this is why I'm here. And so that's where I always countered it. But I do think I mean, I also think the reason why so many of us attorneys do that is you said this, we identify that way, like our self identity revolves around the fact that we're lawyers, which isn't actually healthy. Because that's not really who we are. Right? And I think I had for a very long time done the same thing. Which is why if somebody had asked me, you know, pre cancer, are you always going to practice law? I'd have been like, yeah, why? What would I else what I do, like I've trained so long, I put all this time and money and energy into it what you know, that whole sunk cost fallacy comes into play. And going through what I went through and realizing you have a very limited time here on Earth. And if you really do want to make a bigger impact in some way, it's time to go figure out how you're supposed to do that. If that's not as a lawyer, and who cares what, you know, you're you this isn't who you are, like who you are, is beyond being a lawyer. And so I that helped me realize that in a way that I hadn't before. So even though yes, the thoughts did come up, I was able to counter them a little bit better than I think a lot of attorneys do. And I would say a lot of my clients come to me with that struggle. And, you know, it's so common, I mean, you sounds like you see it a lot too. It's just part of it, I think is how we are trained. Like we think we're special because of our training. And I don't know That's really as true as we'd like to think it is. And it's Unknown Speaker 30:03 really it's one of only three learned professions. medicine, law and theology. Right. So that's, we're, it's a alerted profession. You know, there's a lot of it. And I'm always telling people, yeah, but yeah, if you want to be successful, your business, it's a business. Right. So right, like there's a, we have to sort of if there is an arrogance that comes with that, and especially that comes with it. You You did the back to work, though, for what Unknown Speaker 30:30 a year or so? Oh, no, several years, Unknown Speaker 30:33 ever. Yeah, getting letting go of that identity. did take some time, because you did, you did wind up going back to work and trying to as you said, it was more about the normalcy of things for you, in your mind, as opposed to that just like, This is who I am. And this is what I do. And I'm going to go back and do it. Unknown Speaker 30:52 And I think that's that 18 months where I was trying to go back to normal was that period where I was really going through that internal struggle without realizing that's what I was doing. And then I finally said, Okay, Heather, you got to figure this out. And it doesn't matter what it means. And maybe, and I remember thinking, maybe it means you leave practicing law forever, I really don't know where this is gonna lead, but you got to figure it out. Because you're slowly becoming somebody you don't recognize. And that's not who you are. Like, that's not who you want to be. And so again, you know, I just, that's when I made that decision. And then when, I mean, I looked at being a nutritionist, I looked at like, they're all these things all over the place, I had no clue what I wanted to do. And it's somebody who is a coach, he was an executive coach, not for lawyers, but for like, high level executives said, here that a coaching I think you'd actually be really good at it. And that's what actually got me looking into that. So had she not said that? I don't know where I'd be now. But Unknown Speaker 31:47 yeah, I would say for me, I was exposed to coaching, I don't even know coaching was a thing. Like, it wasn't anything in my, I mean, I knew like distantly like, you know, that there were, but it did, I didn't really realize it was a thing until I got invited to a place that it was a coaching event and for a big high ticket coach, and, and it and that was like, Oh, I love this. This is awesome. Like, there's the it's the it's the part of helping people. It's that it's still that service. And that helping people part, which mean, that's kind of what what my interest was in the in the law to begin with was, you know, there's the there's the ego part, which is, you know, I see myself and like the people on TV and the corporate writing wrong and justice and whatever. And first you find out, it's not that, and, but they're still at service aspect of that helping aspect of it. And I think, in fact, I remember a law professor saying, he asked the class, what is the purpose of a lawyer, and what is your purpose, and mine was to help people think of myself help people solve problems, and he said, to win, to win. Your purpose as a lawyer is to win, your clients have hired you to win. And I was like, wow, I don't think of things that way. That's not the way I but I think a lot of lawyers do. And I probably say it's probably a more of a male thing, but a female thing. But I think a lot of women come into it with an idea of service and helping and that kind of thing. And that's where we can so quickly, you can do the same thing in coaching that you do as an attorney. And that is, has porous boundaries. Oh, yeah, it can create that same level of, because when I started coaching, I definitely didn't have the boundaries that I have now, because I didn't know how to have those boundaries. I had that coach myself to figure that out. Right, right. And so if you're a person, if you're a service oriented person, and you feel like your mission on earth is to kind of serve others and help others, you, you have to consider that no matter what profession you're in, and think about whether or not that's something that can you do that in a way that's not self sacrificing. Can you do that in a way that it's not that doesn't sacrifice, you know, you so you don't have to be the one throwing yourself down for people to step on you to get to their next level, right? Unknown Speaker 34:13 Absolutely. Yeah. I think for me, it was always once I figured out okay, I'm doing this wrong. I think those were so service oriented, that we forget that if that's if we're only looking at serving everybody else, but not ourselves first, eventually we're not serving them very well either. Because it's more than just you're tired or you're not as you know, up mentally and physically as you would like to be. It goes even deeper because you become very needy over time. And needy people are very difficult people to be around. Nobody wants them. No but you know, and and that is where it leads eventually. So once I figured that out, it was a lot easier. For me to say, Okay, I have to prioritize my own self care, I also had to figure out what self care really was because there's this pithy kind of, I don't love what a lot of you know, it's not bubble baths and going to the spa every day. And that's not really self care. I mean, it can be occasionally part of self care. But self care is what do you need in any given moment to feel? Well, mentally, spiritually, physically, it's about your well being. And there are a lot of things you can do that are very simple, that are self care. And a lot of it start it starts within your mind and how you think. Which is why I really, I guess, my kind of secret sauce or special sauce of what I do is, I'm a mindset coach. Yes, I'm a Business Development coach, yes, I help with work life balance, but at the end of the day, 75 to 80% of what I'm really helping my clients with is on how they change their thoughts, how they change their thinking, how they reframe things, so that they can start making better choices for themselves. So that to create those boundaries, and then actually achieve more of what they want, while doing less, which people never believe is really key they're capable of, but it is true. And it all starts with how you think and how you talk to yourself. Unknown Speaker 36:21 Yeah, and that's it. That's huge thing. And I think, especially for high achieving women, you know, you and I both are having conversations with a lot of high achieving people. And I think high achieving people, we tend to I always picture the horse that somebody slipping into a froth, you know, that's I achieving people do is they whip themselves like running a race. Yep, to be best to be the best. And, and the thing that gets us to where we are, being the superior attorney, we are having multiple degrees, having multiple certifications, starting business even, or getting a great job a premium job at a firm, that's not really the thing that gets you to the next level. And that's the all those things that high achieving, pushing yourself pushing yourself at some point, there has to be a shift. Uh huh. Looking at looking at things differently and saying, Okay, how can I, it's the work smarter instead of work harder sort of thing? How can I? How can I get my needs met, and a lot of my wants met in a way without me having to sacrifice myself, right, emotionally in the process. And I think that's one of the things that I'm so glad. In this day and age, more and more business owners or more attorneys are talking about that. Because, you know, as attorneys, we have a huge mental health crisis. And the way that people deal with it was just alcoholism, Unknown Speaker 37:52 alcohol and drugs and pushing it down and never dealing. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 37:57 And that's why you have so many, you know, divorce lawyers, right. And so I do think we're seeing, we're seeing some inroads into that with with, that's the beautiful thing about social media and the internet. There's, there's definitely a downside to it. But one of the good things is, is that I do think a lot of people have more access to different ideas to help them reframe their thoughts. Whereas during the time that I was in my career, I didn't have you had that you have that access, if you could connect with the right mentors, right. But once you in or if you read self help books and things like that, for me, self help, books, therapy, you know, all the different things that you sort of seek out to help you grow. And now there's so much and there's, there's good and bad that comes out of it. Definitely. There's a lot of very trite, you know, platitudes and things that we see on social media. But I do think if people take it a step further, I have conversations, there's a lot like you and I having a deeper conversation getting to know each other, you know, Unknown Speaker 39:02 yes, yes. Yeah. Is the good thing is it's becoming more mainstream. It definitely wasn't when we were getting started. And and so I think what I was doing when I first started, you know, practicing in big law was not as normal. And I don't know if it's the norm yet, but I do see more people seeking out ways to do that. Both men and women. It's not just women either, which is interesting. And I think necessary, if it's really the culture is going to change, you got to get both. And so I have some hope that in the long term, it's it will get better, but it's going to be messy. Before it does because nothing changes overnight. People don't like change as lawyers especially don't like change and so it is going to be messy, but the messiness is worth it in my mind. So Unknown Speaker 39:53 yeah, I do think our black swan event but you know, the pandemic has just caused A lot of people to have to be introspective to turn inward and ask, you know, is this now it will be interesting. We could, we could do that for some period of time when everything seems suspended. People would like, extended sabbaticals kind of thing. But now as we start with, with it, realizing that this is something that we're carrying with us, how can we normalize, get back horrible on war, and people are having to find ways to integrate who they truly are with their career ambitions, and things like that. And, and companies are having to find ways to integrate with this workforce, and all that. So it's, it's, it's been very interesting to be a part of the process and to, to see what's coming out of it. And I think there are going to be some, I think they're going to be some really great things come out of it. I think there's also going to be some challenges along the way that already happened. Oh, yeah, I know, working with a lot of women, law firm owners, trying to scale, building their team has been a challenge, because workers are not sure what they want. And they're switching things around, just to try to figure it out. And so my clients are trying to figure it out. So there's gonna be a lot of shifts happening. And I think we're gonna see that all the way. All the way up the food chain in the legal industry, and all the way down. Unknown Speaker 41:24 Yeah, no, I agree. And, I mean, it's not going to be easy, but it's definitely worth going after. Because there is a better way, we've got to change the the way of law from life, and not just lawyer law from life, but really lawyers. And I think some of it is how we're naturally wired. And some of it is also our training, right? So it all kind of comes into play and has created this very high stress, just deal with it. It's the nature of the beast kind of attitude. But it doesn't have to be that way. And so, you know, Unknown Speaker 42:03 you also think that a lot of people are drawn, like you're a certain personality type, hmm, you're kind of drawn to it. And then your training adds to it. Because I know, for me, I was at first before I had a prior career before I became an attorney, and I had that ambition, and that I was working in an ad agency, and I loved I was single. So I loved working. And I work seven days a week, I loved it, it was my you know, I've always loved working Unknown Speaker 42:30 right and adrenaline rush of the work right Unknown Speaker 42:32 now. I think just the level of competency you know, when you're when you're working something you can control. And the thing that new, and if you have dreams, and you have a vision and you want to see it come to life, and you like the accomplishment aspect of it, you know, there's a lot of reasons why work is meaningful for people it gives you you know, purpose, you get to work out other your other team members and have a shared goal. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of great things that come out of work. I think oftentimes people sort of hold work out to be a villain. Oh, my God, I work. And that's right. I think that's where a lot of the reframing comes in for people is looking at your life and going, it's not so much work life balance as much as it is. How does it it's a part of your life an important part of your life for a lot of people. So how does it integrate into your life? And I'm always discussing with my clients, how we start out with what are your personal goals? And how is this company or building? Going to support? Unknown Speaker 43:35 Yes, goal, right? Yes. Yeah, cuz they're not two separate things we keep we keep thinking. It's like the scale that has two separate things that goes up and down. It's like, No, it's all I think of it more like a spider web, like an integrated spider web. And if one or two comes off, it's not the end of the world, but a bunch of them coming off, you know, and then the spiderweb starts to collapse on itself. And so that, to me, is what really life is everything is very integrated. And most of us get meaning from work, even if you're not like, I'm not big on follow your passion kind of rhetoric, because I think it in implies that you have one true passion or purpose. And that's all and I think that changes throughout life, right? We have different seasons of life, we have certain circumstances that change us we have you know, and so I'm not big on that personally. Because I think it tricks people into believing there's one true way but there is purpose that you gain out of doing your work with others for others, whatever it is that you're doing, and meaning that comes from that and connectedness that comes from that when you're working towards a common purpose and a common cause. And I think it's really important to reframe and really look at it that way because A, it gives you new meaning and purpose, and B it helps inform your business decisions, it helps make you to actually step back and like really see the bigger picture. Okay, this is a priority this is not so that you can really make the right decisions towards what do what is most important for me to be doing right now and overall, and let go of some of that other stuff that we fill our time with that we feel like it's important that ultimately isn't. Unknown Speaker 45:22 Right. Distraction, distraction? Yes. Oh, this is great. You and I, you and I will definitely be continuing this conversation. You probably need to wrap up. Thanks so much for being here and for sharing your story. Because I know it's a deeply personal story. And I really appreciate you, you know, sharing it with me and sharing it with our listeners, because I know that that's going to have an impact for a lot of people, it's going to help a lot of people hear things that they haven't been able to hear before. So thank you so much for sharing that. Tell us if you haven't you find you on the interwebs social where can you do that? Unknown Speaker 45:59 So I am primarily on LinkedIn, I do have Instagram as well. You can finally find me Heather Mulder on Instagram or on LinkedIn follow or connect with me. And then the life in law podcast, of course. And then also, my business site is course correction. coaching.com. So right there all the places. Unknown Speaker 46:19 Thanks again. I've had so much fun, I appreciate it. Thank you for having Unknown Speaker 46:22 me. Transcribed by https://otter.ai