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40: Redesigning Leadership Models for an Uncertain Future · The Future Herd

0:34
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh and welcome back to another
0:37
episode of The Future Herd.
0:39
I'm here with my fantastic co-host, Jen McTavish, and we've assumed, uh,
0:45
assembled rather and assumed that our panellists are going to weigh in on
0:51
the, uh, ephemeral, on the abstract, on the indispensable notion of leadership.
0:58
But before we even entertain such a fantastic concept, we'll take a moment
1:04
for a little bit of introductions 'cause this is the first time that our
1:08
panellists have actually met each other.
1:12
So, Tiana, I'm gonna throw to you first only because it was
1:16
the conversation we had with you that then inspired this panel.
1:21
'cause we thought, you know, we should talk about leadership a little more.
1:25
So before we get into it, uh, why don't you share a little bit
1:28
of information about yourself.
1:31
Tianna: Sure.
1:32
Hi everybody.
1:33
Guilty as charged.
1:34
I guess my name is, uh, Tiana.
1:37
I am, um, I'm a Canadian, but I don't live in Canada anymore.
1:40
I'm also French.
1:42
That's where I live.
1:42
I live in France.
1:44
Um, I am a career long public servant, both in Canada and
1:49
at the international level.
1:51
I've managed programmes and projects and have done a lot of work in foresight,
1:56
meaning our look at the present day and how we see the futures unfolding.
2:03
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
2:04
Tianna: Should I pass it on to somebody now?
2:06
RJ Taylor: Sure, yeah.
2:07
RJ Taylor, I'm a second generation fish farmer here in Ontario.
2:11
Um, family business, growing all sorts of different kinds of fish.
2:15
Um, both in southern Ontario and then also, um, up in northern
2:18
Ontario, uh, in partnership with, uh, first Nation up there.
2:21
Shishi, Gowan.
2:22
Um, but I'm also just a big fish and science nerd, so, um, I get involved and,
2:28
and say yes probably far too many times.
2:30
So I also, uh, lead our industry association here in Ontario for fish
2:34
farmers, um, and then serve through a, a few different things, um, to,
2:39
to further research and innovation in the agriculture sector at large.
2:43
Very excited to be here today for this conversation.
2:46
Kaitlyn: Awesome.
2:46
Well, good morning from Saskatchewan.
2:49
I'm a fourth generation farmer with my family.
2:52
We've got a grain and cattle operation here.
2:55
Um, but I needed something to keep me busy off the farm as well.
3:00
So I started my own consulting company and I work with, uh, mostly
3:04
agriculture industry organisations.
3:08
Um, so lead like Sask Young Farmers, Sask Young Egg as their general
3:13
manager and other organisations like that, um, throughout the day.
3:16
So yeah, excited to be here and um, leadership is one of my favourite topics,
3:22
so looking forward to diving into it.
3:26
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
3:27
And you know, as I said before we started recording, there aren't really any rules
3:31
or structures to today's conversation.
3:33
I suspect the threads and the opportunities for insight are,
3:37
are gonna flow quite profusely.
3:40
But I, I felt it was good to kind of set the context, which is The Future Herd
3:45
is essentially a leadership podcast.
3:47
We're, we're kind of interested in how our food is produced in, who is really
3:53
essential in making sure that that food gets from where it begins on the
3:58
farm to where it ends up on the plate.
4:01
But the other through line of the Future herd as a podcast is crisis.
4:07
And it's crisis, not just as a theoretical, but something that is
4:12
increasingly impacting how we produce our food, how our food is distributed.
4:18
And, you know, crisis can be in the abstract.
4:21
Presently it's been energy crisis in terms of what's happening in the strait of
4:25
our, and literally it's direct impact on diesel prices, on fertiliser availability.
4:32
But then of course there's the climate crisis, which is a whole
4:35
other dynamic, or where here where I live, there's a bunch of farmers
4:39
who've literally been washed out.
4:41
We've had so much rain in Eastern Ontario that, that floods ha, have,
4:45
have really been a huge issue.
4:48
I think the first question, or the first thread is, what does it mean
4:52
to be a leader in an era of crisis?
4:56
Is that even relevant as leadership changed at all?
4:59
Or is it still the same kinda, uh, uh, kitten caboodle?
5:03
So, rj, I'm gonna throw to you first partly because you know, when we
5:07
had our conversation here in the podcast, you had a very optimistic,
5:12
a very confident approach to the way in which you encountered leadership.
5:17
While at the same time, you're not hiding your head in the sand in terms
5:21
of the volatility and, and the nature of turmoil and turbulence in our economy.
5:26
So, uh, why don't you start us off?
5:28
How, how do you kind of, uh, uh, uh, complete the circle as it were of
5:35
leadership in, in a time of crisis?
5:39
RJ Taylor: Yeah.
5:41
Okay.
5:41
Jesse, that's, I, I think there's a, there's a few different avenues I can take
5:44
that down, but I think, you know, when I view it from a, a fish farming lens, um,
5:49
and then, and just a wider agriculture lens, I think, you know, crisis is
5:53
such an amazing time for innovation and opportunity and trying new things.
5:58
And I really think the role of leadership in that is sometimes,
6:01
um, really just sort of paving the way and showing others that like a
6:07
new way of doing things is possible.
6:09
Um, and I think sometimes that can be in a really large, um, conceptual
6:14
space of like bringing people together to try and solve problems.
6:18
But, you know, for us on the farm, you know, what we're doing is we're trying
6:21
to take fish farming from nearshore to offshore to sort of avoid some of the, the
6:26
challenges we see with more erratic storms and warmer waters and things like that.
6:30
And that's just something that I've had way more people tell me
6:33
that it's not possible or that it's gonna be really challenging, um, or
6:37
that we're 10 years away from that.
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Then I have people being like, yes, there's a way to do that.
6:42
There's a way to innovate and change and, and drive difference.
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But, you know, we've been doing it now for five years and it is absolutely possible.
6:48
But I think sometimes in the leadership space, when we're, or, or just in
6:52
the agriculture space, sorry, we have these conversations and it's like, oh,
6:55
that, that change or that innovation, like, we're, we're not there yet.
6:58
That's like 10 years away.
6:59
But it takes, I think, um, a, a leader to, or a, or a, or a group of leaders
7:06
to, to go, oh, well, we're not gonna get there in 10 years if we don't
7:09
start trying something new today.
7:11
And I think that, that the, the, all the crises we see, they just throw
7:14
the fuel on that fire to, to get us moving and, and get us innovating
7:18
and, and trying and sometimes failing, but trying harder next time.
7:22
Um, as much as we can.
7:24
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and similarly, Caitlin, one of the big takeaways I had from
7:28
our conversation was, you know, the, the processing infrastructure that's
7:33
being created in Western Canada, and it combined that with the transportation
7:38
needs and the infrastructure needs.
7:41
One of the crises I left out in my kind of question was the
7:45
tariffs and the trade stuff.
7:47
So, you know, building off r J's point about innovation, what are the, the,
7:52
the both sources of optimism, but where do you think leadership really makes
7:57
a difference in creating these types of new opportunities and enabling the
8:02
kind of innovation that, that I think is happening right across our sector?
8:07
Kaitlyn: Yeah, I, and I really like what RJ said about, you know, I think crisis
8:11
allows, especially organisations and not-for-profits, um, to innovate, right?
8:16
Because those are tend to be the groups who do things, you
8:19
know, the same way all the time.
8:21
And so when they hit a crisis, they are kind of forced to innovate.
8:25
Um, but kind of going on, um, your question around the value added and some
8:30
of the processing cap capacity, I think some of these crisises and when we look
8:34
at tariffs and international trade and things like that, we're, we're forced to
8:39
look what can we do more in Canada, right?
8:41
Where can we process more?
8:43
Where can we take our ingredients and create them actually
8:46
into a food product, right?
8:48
And, um, I think some of these crisis has really sped up the whole national
8:53
food strategy and, um, the value added.
8:57
And you know, that it has been a huge thing for my community of Yorkton.
9:02
Um, having two of the largest canola crushing plants, the
9:05
largest oat milling plant, right?
9:07
And it has changed how our community is, um, the other crisis that you kind
9:11
of left out and, you know, this is my opinion and the leadership crisis.
9:17
And I think for me, I just wanted to mention it and, you know, it's sad, but
9:21
it has also really grown my business selfishly because we see so many
9:26
different groups and organisations that don't have that next leader to step in.
9:31
And so we've been able to step in even for a transition to prepare
9:35
maybe the next leader, um, or, you know, they end up staying with us.
9:40
But I think that's something that as an industry and we're starting to see more
9:45
of those young leader programmes, but something also, I think we have to be
9:49
very mindful because we have less and less people willing to step up, step up
9:53
and be a leader within this industry.
9:56
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and Tiana allow me to use that to throw to you.
9:59
Uh, and I, I love the phrasing of the leadership crisis.
10:03
To what extent does, uh, uh, a lack of foresight or a lack of long-term
10:09
thinking factor in to that dynamic, like if there is a leadership crisis, if we
10:15
don't have young people, if we don't have even old people willing to take
10:19
over in leadership, that seems to be a real symptom of a, a lack of foresight
10:24
and a lack of long term thinking.
10:27
Tianna: Yeah, I sure, absolutely it is.
10:31
But I think even sometimes when we take a moment to think, um, long term, we also
10:38
need to look at where we were disrupted in that long term thinking and kind of
10:42
bring us back to, okay, what do we do now?
10:44
Right?
10:44
So it does bring us to the leadership crisis or, or, or what have you.
10:50
And, and how do we bring, um, I, I think there, there are, there's
10:57
lots of young people out there.
10:58
Are we speaking their language?
11:01
Um, are we getting to how they see, um, leadership as well?
11:07
Because I think a lot of times what people see is that there's a, an
11:11
abundance of, um, change happening and it feels faster and faster
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and the future feels, um, closer.
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that doesn't feel like it gives people a lot of time to, okay,
11:26
what do we need 10 years from now?
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Because that idea, even RJ had brought it up, that idea, things are 10 years out,
11:34
the futures are closer than you think.
11:37
They, um, we should be acting like the change is coming tomorrow.
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And in that regard, start thinking, uh, or start not even planning, but anticipating,
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um, what needs to happen, needs to happen next, uh, for, for tomorrow.
11:55
They pretend that the future arrives tomorrow, or multiple
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futures arrive tomorrow.
12:00
And, and what are we doing today to, to help, um, fill those roles?
12:06
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and let me take that as a opportunity to
12:09
throw it back to you, Caitlin.
12:10
And, and this is both a curiosity of mine, and I'm curious, uh, from a sectoral
12:16
perspective, you know, grain farmers deal with futures and future contracts
12:22
all the time, and there's a lot of activity right now happening on future
12:27
markets, especially with regard to grains 'cause of what's going on in, uh, you
12:33
know, the Ukraine, Russia, what's going on in terms of all Im, how does that
12:38
impact the psychology of grain farmers?
12:40
How does that impact how you make those decisions?
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And I'm trying to, we, we had a goal around there where we sort
12:45
of gave some abstract answers.
12:48
This is an area where I'm just starting to learn and look at how
12:52
grain farmers use contracts and use futures and use comm commodity
12:57
markets to make their own decisions.
12:59
Help us understand how the kind of rubber hits the road
13:02
here in a very practical way.
13:04
And then rj, I'm kind of curious to have the same thing happen in terms of
13:08
how you project markets and think about people who want to eat your fish and how
13:12
that impacts your production as well.
13:16
Kaitlyn: So Jesse, I've never really thought about it that way.
13:18
That, you know, and now my mind's, you know, going, so this is gonna
13:22
be kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall, but, um, and seeing
13:25
what maybe sticks with somebody.
13:26
But I think for, you know, our, I'm gonna talk about our farm it, you
13:30
know, because that's kind of where my experience is, is we probably, you
13:34
know, really, um, did a lot of forward contracting and understanding futures,
13:39
um, probably four or five years ago.
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And prior to that, that was, you know, things were a little
13:46
bit more settled, right?
13:47
And it was easier to do.
13:49
And then we had a major drought, um, and we did not meet a lot
13:55
of our forward contracts and we paid a lot of penalties in it.
14:01
And I would say then our farm has become a little bit more reserved, right?
14:05
And we've pulled back and, um, we have always, with the uncertainty it has
14:12
made all of us say like, okay, we're not gonna plan out now that far, and
14:17
we're gonna like take a little bit by a little bit and think about more of
14:20
that once we have grain in the bin.
14:23
So we've built actually more bin space, we're actually gonna store
14:27
and then try to sell, right?
14:29
And play that game because we're uncertain, right?
14:33
And we don't wanna pay those extra penalties, right?
14:36
So that's kind of how being are.
14:38
And I think even in leadership, and I know I'm kind of jumping all
14:42
over, but it's early for me, so I'm gonna, um, take that, right?
14:47
But even in our leadership, I think we've become a lot more reserved too.
14:51
I know myself as a leader, I've been a lot more mindful of, what
14:55
can I say, when can I say it?
14:57
When do I step in?
14:58
When do I step out?
14:59
Because there's become a lot of uncertainty, right?
15:02
And I am, I don't wanna say I'm scared, but it's become challenging.
15:06
And it even ties into, um, I did a presentation last
15:10
week about harassment, right?
15:12
And, you know, leadership and work like what, what I say online or what?
15:17
I post online knowing that I'm gonna have one good comment and there's
15:22
probably gonna be five trolls who aren't even standing behind their own name,
15:25
who are gonna comment on it, right?
15:27
And so it's really made, before I used to post everything on
15:30
social media, but now I'm like so careful of everything that I say.
15:34
And so I think this whole, where I'm gonna turn back is in the last even five years,
15:39
I feel like we've become reserved, right?
15:41
We've become reserved on how we market our grain.
15:43
We've become reserved of what we post online.
15:46
We've been reserved of what rooms we show up in, what we say
15:50
in those rooms when we say it.
15:51
And, um, it's draining all at the same time.
15:55
So that's Jesse.
15:57
I don't know if that's how you wanted me to answer the question, but that's my,
16:01
Jenn: I
16:01
Kaitlyn: my.
16:01
Jenn: um, can I chime in here for a minute?
16:03
'cause I think that's really interesting, Caitlin, what you just said.
16:07
And I think it ties back to what Tiana was saying about, you know, with new
16:11
leaders, are we speaking their language?
16:13
And one of the things that I've noticed, you know, about the, the reservation,
16:18
it's not just I'm, I'm more reserved because I'm afraid of the backlash online.
16:25
What I'm noticing is that do I wanna put myself in a position of leadership
16:31
it's all the shit sandwiches you can eat and what's in it for me
16:35
and where's my quality of life?
16:37
Right.
16:39
I, so I think, yes, there is this sort of like, why would I put myself out
16:42
there just to get bashed by people?
16:46
and I think that's speaking a little bit to this crisis and leadership that we're
16:50
seeing and like people not wanting to step up into these positions of leadership.
16:55
Kaitlyn: And it comes a lot of saving time and energy too.
16:58
RJ Taylor: know, my, my father who's been in the aquaculture sector now
17:01
for over 50 years, you know, even when I was a small child, he'd be
17:05
like, we'd be sitting at the dinner table and he'd be like, I always have
17:08
too much fish or not enough fish.
17:10
Why can't I ever have the right amount of fish?
17:14
I, I didn't understand it then, but I can tell you the last few years I absolutely
17:18
understand that mostly because we've jumped into a, a, a whole new market,
17:22
getting into the opening, a grow out part of the business, which is like substantial
17:27
opportunity for, for scale and growth.
17:30
And my sister and business partner, we, um, slash business partner, I
17:33
should say, we're, we're ambitious.
17:35
So if we can grow, if we can scale we'll, we'll do it.
17:38
And in the first couple years of our grow out farm up north, um, that's what we did.
17:43
We thought if we can put more pens in the water and grow
17:45
more fish, like let's do it.
17:47
But then one year, um, things, but three years ago, things
17:51
substantially changed in the market.
17:53
Um, and we were stuck with a lot of fish that didn't, um, have a sale.
17:58
We had some large commitments from large customers that reneged on them.
18:02
And so we put the fish in the freezer and then all of a sudden the bank
18:06
was like, oh my goodness, now you're, you're holding onto all this product.
18:10
Like, where are the sales?
18:11
Where are the sales?
18:11
We're like, it's okay.
18:12
It's in the freezer.
18:13
But the bank was so risk adverse and we're like, we're just
18:16
like other livestock groups.
18:18
We put it in a silo.
18:19
We sell it over the next six to 12 months.
18:21
They're like, you need to sell it now in order to make
18:23
your certain payment schedule.
18:25
And, um, and we ended up having to like, pull everything outta that bank
18:29
and pay us a small fortune to switch everything over to Farm Credit Canada.
18:34
And the long story short of that is that these last few years of turbulence
18:38
have left us completely reserved.
18:40
So this year, like I've run out of different sizes of fish.
18:43
I would love to be selling more fish.
18:45
We could have grown it, but we're just like not a risk tolerance for two people.
18:52
Arlan and I, my my sister and I who have a very, very high tolerance for risk.
18:56
Our risk tolerance is like a near zero.
18:58
So it's incredibly reserved in this market, which is really,
19:02
which is really frustrating.
19:03
'cause I'm, I'm sort of out there as an industry spokesperson talking
19:06
about, you know, we're one of the fastest growing agriculture sectors.
19:09
We have so much opportunity for growth.
19:11
Um, there's so much opportunity for indigenous economic reconciliation
19:15
for, um, um, more further processing and opportunities in Northern Ontario.
19:20
But then it's like, I'm also a farmer over here being like, yes,
19:24
I have those opportunities for growth and I'm, I'm not taking them.
19:27
And I, I see that all over the agriculture sector at large.
19:30
So it is like a, a, a disconnect between like political leadership and even
19:34
those advocating for our sector and like those of us farmers on the front lines
19:38
trying to, you know, having been stung.
19:41
I, I think there's a fair amount of folks in those first couple years
19:44
of the pandemic that were also stunned, but now we're in this time
19:46
and you're like, I'm not taking those, those risks like I did before.
19:50
Um, which leaves, you know, all those bigger issues of food
19:54
sovereignty and food security and.
19:55
Further processing and expansion and all that stuff is, uh, on pause or diminished.
20:03
Tianna: uh, I was gonna jump in anyways 'cause I, I'm hearing on one hand,
20:07
crisis is a, is an opportunity for innovation and yet on the other hand
20:13
we're seeing, um, risk adverse, right?
20:17
So how, how can you be innovative in a risk inver adverse environment?
20:22
and this, these questions around what kind of leader, like, who wants to step up,
20:26
who wants to step into this, you know, this void and, and munch away on that
20:30
delicious sandwich you mentioned, Jen.
20:32
So I think in some ways have been applying the, the status quo
20:38
vision of what a leader is, right?
20:40
The fire, the person that puts out the fire, multiple fires, um, and at
20:46
the same time tries to other fires or means of managing those fires.
20:51
So I'm wondering if we need to take another sort of, um, worldview of
20:56
what a leader is and what a leader could do in these types of, um, in the
21:02
agricultural environment writ large.
21:05
Because we do a lot of work based on past, that's how we forecast a lot of
21:10
how we're going to be doing our, um, managing, I shouldn't say our, 'cause
21:14
I've never been a farmer other than my small chicken flock that I have in
21:18
my backyard and my vegetable patch.
21:20
But having worked a long time in, in, um, the animal health, um,
21:25
and, uh, welfare environment, think I can say something about that.
21:29
So we do a lot of, uh, work about forecasting.
21:32
So we're basing our, our are decisions on past data and past data
21:41
has, um, gone all over the map now.
21:44
So we don't have a means of forecasting anymore.
21:46
We need to be much broader and anticipating more.
21:49
So what do those leaders look like in, um, that we are, we're,
21:54
we're slashing the old model here of what a leader should be doing.
21:58
And based on, you know, your, your knowledge and your, um,
22:02
experience, what could that, what could those leaders look like?
22:07
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and in particular one of the through lines I think
22:10
that came in that was risk.
22:13
do leaders entertain risk and and what is the framework or
22:18
the concept for that risk?
22:20
You know, I, I really liked Caitlyn's metaphor of the grain storage, or not
22:25
metaphor, Caitlyn's example of the grain storage and r j's example of the freezer.
22:31
'cause both allow for a little bit of resilience.
22:34
What is the leadership equivalent of that?
22:37
Because I, I, I was shaking my head and I, I was getting emotional both when
22:41
Kaitlyn was like, you know, yeah, I don't post as much anymore and there's
22:46
always, you know, nameless assholes who are just gonna throw shit at me and
22:49
then Jen brings up the shit sandwich.
22:52
know, RJ again, I'm gonna throw to you as the optimist, where
22:57
does risk play a role in all this?
22:59
And in particular, let's call it reputational risk or even emotional risk.
23:05
'cause that is a part of putting yourself out there, let alone your
23:09
point about the financial risk, you know, props to farm Credit Canada.
23:13
But nonetheless, it sounds like you incurred a lot of stress that is now
23:17
impacting how you make your decisions.
23:20
RJ Taylor: Yeah.
23:21
Well, I guess a roundabout way of answering that question is something that
23:26
we think a lot about, which is that when we're trying to, when times get tougher
23:34
or more reserved, like the, this, I find that companies or organisations like
23:38
find a place to trim in their travel budgets and their conference budgets.
23:43
And that's something that I, I, I really encourage people not to do because I
23:48
find working in agriculture, especially during, um, tougher, leaner times, um, it
23:55
can, it, you're, you're not necessarily like out and about talking with other
23:59
farmers and like getting a few different perspectives be you're, you're, you're,
24:04
you're in that quintessential silo.
24:06
And so one thing, you know, even our, our, our industry association, usually
24:11
we do a summer grower gathering every few years of like senior leaders
24:16
and owners and managers and things.
24:18
And this year, um, we were like, those people see each other all the time.
24:22
Let's all cherry pick our up and comers from these different, from all
24:26
of these companies and like, make it really enticing, like the association
24:29
paid for them to get together.
24:31
And like we were expecting about maybe 15 and like we blasted through at I think
24:35
30, 30 participants and just like watching those folks in the room debate things
24:41
together and go, that's how I do it.
24:43
This is how I do it.
24:45
That sort of approach, um, really helps de de develop the, the leadership and
24:51
like help push the whole herd along instead of, um, the few odd ones.
24:57
So I definitely wanted to say like, I think a, a really big aspect of
25:00
leadership is getting away from the farm or away from the business
25:03
and like talking to other people.
25:05
And so whether or not the leader is the person that creates that in, in
25:09
atmosphere or that is the atmosphere that we're developing those leaders
25:14
is, is I think a really big contributor to what helps our entire sector.
25:22
Kaitlyn: Maybe I'll just jump in here.
25:23
And I love what RJ says about like bringing people together, right?
25:27
And we see that, um, in the sectors that I work mostly in as well.
25:32
But another like really practical thing that we've tried now in
25:36
a few different organisations.
25:37
Like when we're struggling, nobody wants to be the chair of, you know, the board
25:41
or nobody wants to like, you know, take on maybe that a little bit of extra role.
25:46
We've tried co-chairs, right?
25:48
And so it's this shared responsibility.
25:51
It's, you know, they both are giving their time, but they've
25:55
got each other to lean on, right?
25:57
Or if I can't, you know, if somebody's not available, there's somebody else and
26:00
it just kind of takes the pressure off.
26:02
And sometimes it's, you know, we try to like switch co-chairs, like maybe
26:06
they're two year terms, but you know, one and they're, you know, transitioning
26:11
and there's this opportunity.
26:12
And I think it's just going to Tiana's point of like, no, yeah, traditional
26:17
governance models, one chair, right?
26:19
Traditional governance models this way or that way.
26:22
But we're gonna have to adapt, right?
26:24
To attract these younger people to be involved.
26:27
Right?
26:28
And maybe meetings, like I've sat on some organisations who didn't believe in Zoom
26:33
meetings and I'm like, you're not gonna get any younger people that have kids at
26:37
home that are, you know, gonna be able to travel across Saskatchewan monthly
26:40
for a meeting, like not time or find childcare even within the local community.
26:45
And so I think lots of the organisations that I'm involved in,
26:49
and I feel like I can say this word 'cause Jen said it first, but like
26:52
Metimes, I'm the shit disturber.
26:53
And like I go, I'm on the board as the shit disturber and people know that, but
26:58
it's not for, to make the organisation worse, it's just like, how do we make this
27:03
organisation, you know, that young people want to be involved in or can be involved.
27:10
And then another one is, I used to sit on a board that had four hour board meetings,
27:15
but let's be honest, an hour was actual business and three hours was bullshitting.
27:19
And so I said, if you want young people do the meeting from seven to eight,
27:24
if whoever chooses to stay to bullshit and have a drink after the meeting
27:28
can, but for those who have things to, you know, get done in the evening can.
27:33
And so just trying to make some of those little changes, I feel
27:37
like attract better leaders.
27:40
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and to further elaborate on the ship metaphor, you know,
27:43
when I walk out into the pasture that my horses are in, I either have to harrow
27:48
the field or I have to literally kick the shit to then help disperse it across.
27:54
It's not our fault.
27:55
These organisations have shit.
27:57
We're coming to these organisations disturbing that shit because
28:02
it then adds fertility.
28:04
Now Tiana, there, there's two things you've said today that
28:07
I, I, I want to come back to.
28:08
One was, are we using the language that young people, are we using the culture
28:14
that young people would understand?
28:16
But then you also, I think, tie that to models of leadership.
28:20
Are there new models of leadership or different models of leadership
28:24
that we should be entertaining?
28:26
Because I think implicit in both of those is a kind of status quo that
28:31
that many institutions are just using language and culture to create the
28:37
same leaders over and over and over.
28:40
So how do we short circuit that?
28:41
How do we get new language?
28:43
How do we get new models of leadership in so that we then get new blood,
28:47
new ideas and new shit disturbers?
28:50
Tianna: Well, I think what RJ and, and Caitlyn were saying, we're giving examples
28:54
of, of how to kinda shake things up.
28:57
What I've, what I heard, the common denominator and all that
29:00
is that the people, the personal dynamics still play a big role.
29:05
Um, and the communication amongst your community still plays a big role.
29:10
And also coming in as the, know, the, the person that's going to rattle people's,
29:16
um, status quo, like how Caitlyn does when she comes into something and, and,
29:22
and rattles what people are thinking.
29:24
I guess some ways to get people we can use, um, maybe as an entry
29:30
point, try to find the same sort of language of like, Hey guys, what,
29:34
what, keeping you awake at night?
29:38
And you, what you might hear from different generations of, of people on,
29:44
on boards or, or within the communities, um, of, uh, of practise or agriculture
29:52
or aquaculture, et cetera, is that, sure, you might find some common, threads of
29:57
what's keeping people awake at night.
30:00
Um, but you might also hear of things that are a little bit different.
30:03
And when you start asking the questions of like, how do you see this changing?
30:08
You're not going to the same sort of leadership.
30:11
Maybe it's like leadership from a more horizontal, systemic type of
30:15
way of, of, looking at this because of it does shake up the status quo.
30:23
It tells us something like, well, the system's not quite function.
30:28
Uh, it's functional, but it's not quite optimal.
30:31
And so if we are asking each other amongst ourselves and being the people
30:35
who say like, Hey, I'm seeing this and it's causing alarm bells within me.
30:40
Are you guys seeing the same, are you seeing this, is this an alarm bell to you?
30:43
Or is this an innovation to you?
30:45
You don't have these types of conversations.
30:48
is allowing for one, the anticipation piece of it, and two, the long-term
30:53
thinking about who's, how do we deal with these things that are so close to us
30:59
right now and not feeling very far away.
31:02
I think there's just, um, the, the, the common denominator, again, being
31:06
the people, the personal, the the professional, um, and then going beyond,
31:13
um, maybe your board or your, your people, your direct people who were
31:17
considered to be leaders and start pushing not out, but maybe bringing in
31:22
and gathering that, um, sort of energy of, of the possibility of um, what
31:28
they're observing and trends that they're seeing and their possible solutions
31:33
and problem definitions, et cetera.
31:35
Jenn: I just, I'm gonna maybe take the conversation a a bit sideways,
31:39
but, uh, as I was listening to you, Tiana, you raised, was a couple of
31:43
questions kind of percolating and one of them is around like, the future is
31:46
really, you know, back to r J's point.
31:48
It's really today we have to start working today for what we think
31:51
is gonna be here in 10 years.
31:53
all of the issues that have been raised to this podcast are quite daunting
31:58
and can be somewhat overwhelming.
32:00
And how do we navigate that, that sense of overwhelm, right?
32:06
Where it just all seems too big and too hard and keep people engaged and
32:10
at the table so that we can get really creative around our problem solving.
32:14
Do any, any of you, do you have any words of wisdom on that one?
32:18
Kaitlyn: I think for me, when, you know, we are feeling overwhelmed and
32:22
we're trying to solve this big problem, sometimes I'm like, I just got to sit
32:26
in my office and figure it out alone.
32:28
Right.
32:28
And that's probably the worst thing to do.
32:31
And it comes back to RJs, you know, comment about bringing people together.
32:35
You know, having those focus groups or committees or round tables and just
32:38
having discussion and knowing that not one person has to solve it by themselves.
32:43
Right.
32:44
But as a collective, coming together with the different skill sets, the different
32:48
perspectives, the different experiences, and really putting that all together to,
32:53
you know, I'm not the only one feeling overwhelmed if I'm overwhelmed about,
32:57
um, you know, where the cattle industry and markets are going, like others.
33:03
You know what I mean?
33:04
Like there's others who are probably also feeling the same.
33:06
And how do you bring those people together?
33:07
And I think as leaders within our respective industries, that's
33:11
one of our jobs, right, is to help bring those people together.
33:16
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and let me build on that and, and throw
33:18
you a, a a a fastball rj.
33:21
'cause I, I, I know you're perfectly capable of hitting it out of the park.
33:25
I absolutely align with your habit of foregrounding innovation
33:30
because I think it is a, an important rallying point for people.
33:34
And I think, Tiana, if I'm understanding you correctly, part of what we're
33:39
suggesting here is foregrounding crisis is something we need to do, it's something
33:46
we need to do in a way that allows for different solutions or, or different
33:51
innovations or different responses.
33:53
And I laughed when Jen said, you know, sometimes some of the crises
33:58
that we touch upon here in the future heard are really overwhelming.
34:02
And you're like, what the fuck?
34:03
Like, what am I supposed to do?
34:05
And I think that is why it's easy for us to focus on the innovation.
34:09
But to what extent do you feel comfortable for grounding crisis?
34:15
Do you think leaders should foreground crisis?
34:19
And if you really wanna go for the advanced level, what are the
34:24
risks of foregrounding crisis?
34:27
You know, the most obvious being conspiracy theory does tend to be a
34:32
part of the shit sandwiches that are part of the internet as we know it.
34:37
And I think that's part of the larger notion of foregrounded crisis.
34:41
I, I'm rambling, RJ.
34:43
Bail me out here.
34:44
RJ Taylor: Yeah, I think, um, so thing I want to draw on is, so
34:51
I, I plan our annual Fish farmer conferences, um, for the association
34:57
with the, with the committee.
34:58
There's, there's a, there's a lot of great minds behind it, but when folks are sort
35:01
of new to our conference, you know, this year we had our, our largest event ever.
35:07
We lured a lot of folks up from the US when they saw the programme before
35:10
they came, I was getting badgered.
35:12
It was like, why are your breaks 30 minutes?
35:14
And then it's like, why does the first day end at four 30?
35:18
And I was getting, I was getting like, like, why do you cram the
35:21
sessions into this part and have like an hour and a half for lunch?
35:25
And, um, and I, I don't know, it was, I was like, you, you just, you just gotta
35:29
come, you just gotta experience it.
35:30
Because like in the, me taking over the event, like I realised, you know,
35:36
we thought the event was supposedly like, cram these sessions in and say
35:40
these important things when really, like the magic is when you take a bunch
35:44
of people who work in this sector.
35:46
And I would say agriculture, you know, I, I, I did leave, you know, at 18 and,
35:51
and, and spent a decade in, in sort of the more science research space away from ag.
35:56
Um, I was so excited to come back to agriculture because like the
36:00
passion people have for this industry that are in it, like is it must
36:04
rank of all of the sectors, like very, very high in, in comparison.
36:09
So you, so you take a bunch of people who are passionate and you
36:11
put them in a room together with a beer in their hand, and they don't
36:15
talk about like their golf game.
36:16
They talk about like their, their farm.
36:19
And they compare things and they talk about, um, how do you solve that problem?
36:24
And I think that like, there doesn't, there, there, there's probably a
36:28
space to foreground crisis in a formal workshop, but I think it just like
36:33
naturally bubbles out when you have all these passionate people with a lot
36:36
of engineered social time together.
36:39
Um, and I, I, I'm gonna say, you know, uh, we, we have played the predictor
36:44
game, but I always do have to go back, you know, our, our Arlen and I, like
36:50
we say, like we make the best decision we can with the data we have now.
36:54
'cause when we start predicting things and guessing how things are gonna
36:58
go, um, there's, it, it, it, it's way more unlikely that we're gonna
37:05
get it right than if we just make the decisions that, that we have now.
37:08
But yeah, I really wanted to sort of draw to that, that social engineering aspect.
37:12
And I, I see that at events a lot too.
37:14
Like, we always think it needs a formal agenda, but it's like the, the magic
37:18
is what happens outside of the agenda.
37:21
Um, and that's just why encouraging future leaders, current leaders
37:26
like to to to leave their operations and spend time together is, is, is
37:31
where some of the magic happens too.
37:33
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and that's a great answer and, and I'll, frame it
37:37
as to foreground the social dynamics to foreground the social needs.
37:42
Tiana please.
37:44
Tianna: Well, I was just going to hit the nail on the head with you.
37:47
Hit the nail on the head actually, sorry, rj, this idea
37:51
of prediction and, and whatnot.
37:52
And, um, that's what I was trying to get at before was like when you
37:56
did forecasting, you were pace, placing your bets on past data,
38:01
and then trying to extend it out.
38:03
But the conditions under which that past data, um, existed, no longer exists today.
38:10
the idea of prediction, um, is kind of, well, you might get, you
38:15
might get lucky, uh, but if you're exploring other possibilities, I think
38:21
you're in a, in a much better place.
38:23
And again, this idea of going back to the community, um, and how people are
38:29
seeing these problems and how they might be, um, defining them and then providing
38:33
solutions to them is another form of ex exploration for, um, for everybody of
38:41
the, the futures they could create, um, with applying the solutions in their
38:46
context or might need to take those solutions in one context and say, okay,
38:50
what are my, are my, um, conditions in my, in my case, um, that might need
38:58
to be tweaked or, or what have you.
38:59
So I think some ways you're doing a lot of orientation around the possibilities.
39:05
Um, and I think you are in doing that, you help and up your
39:10
anticipation muscle, if you will.
39:13
and then through anticipation, you start thinking like the
39:17
what ifs and then the what next.
39:20
And I think those are, um, a very interesting way to, to think and
39:24
to communicate with people as well.
39:27
Jesse Hirsh: let me use that then.
39:29
A a construct a question, you know, part of what RJ I think anecdotally
39:35
but accurately described was too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to
39:40
putting on an event in the agricultural sector in that someone has to do the
39:45
work in RJs case and everyone has 2 cents as to how that should happen.
39:50
Caitlin, I, I'm assuming you've also kind of experienced this, so
39:55
I want to take Tiana's provocation there and translate it into the
40:01
actual kind logistics of ag events.
40:06
Is it tenable to have an agenda for an A GM or a meeting in which all
40:12
of it is uncertain in which rather than saying, here's the presentations
40:16
and what you're gonna get, it's, here's the questions we're gonna
40:20
address and there's no answers.
40:23
Caitlin, would you be able to pull that off?
40:25
Is that viable?
40:26
How, how could you, on the
40:29
Kaitlyn: Yep.
40:29
Jesse Hirsh: ag, acknowledge the uncertainty that we're all experiencing?
40:33
Well, at the same time, people want to go to an event that is very
40:36
certain, that has times, that has specific breaks and specific topics.
40:40
How, how do we balance these tension?
40:43
Kaitlyn: Yeah, I think, you know, I, I run a few AGMs every year and
40:48
you know, there's some that are still very back in the same model.
40:51
There's one that we've actually, like, we do five, 10 minutes get what we absolutely
40:56
need to get done for, you know, law.
41:00
And then the rest is literally just, we ask the crowd questions, right?
41:03
And we do a whole feedback table.
41:05
But one of my favourite AGMs that I organise is, um, for an
41:11
organisation that we, so it's the Western Canadian Wheat Growers.
41:16
We used to host it in, um, Western Canada.
41:20
Nobody would come in February because nobody wants to be in
41:24
Winnipeg or Regina in February.
41:27
So then we were doing, so then, um, two years ago I was chair of the
41:31
committee and we went to Mexico.
41:34
We went to Mexico for the week.
41:35
We had 140 of our members.
41:38
And I mean, in Regina before I think we had 20 to 30 members, we
41:42
had 140 farmers join us in Mexico.
41:46
And you know what I loved about this?
41:47
A GM is you spent all week together and the best conversations and the
41:52
best solutions happened around the pool bar, um, you know, in the evenings.
41:59
And it was, you know, as board members, when we came back and had
42:05
our board meeting, we had so much great feedback, um, and comments
42:11
and thoughts from our members that we were able to compile it all.
42:14
And it really has led us in the last two years.
42:17
And so this year we're going back to the Dominican.
42:19
We're going to the Dominican.
42:20
We have already a hundred people members registered.
42:23
And I think, you know, did we get some pushback?
42:26
Absolutely.
42:27
But it's one third cheaper than hosting an event in Canada.
42:31
I'm just gonna say that it's a lot cheaper going there.
42:33
'cause all your food and drinks are covered.
42:36
Um, and it really, when we host a one day a GM, people come in and come
42:41
out and sometimes RJ I know we've, I've created social hours, but people
42:45
sometimes don't stay 'cause they wanna get back to their farm, right?
42:48
And so when you lock them in an all-inclusive resort for
42:51
a week, they have no choice.
42:52
They can't go back to the farm.
42:54
RJ Taylor: in the West now.
42:56
Kaitlyn: They can't, they're stuck.
42:57
Um, so yeah, I guess for me, Jesse, that's one of the events that I'm most
43:02
proud about because we literally lock them into an all-inclusive for a week.
43:07
And we make like there is some format, like it's not just come for a week and
43:11
just do whatever you, well, I guess you could, but there is, you know, two
43:15
mornings of speakers and we've got some, you know, scheduled stuff in there.
43:20
But the best stuff happens in the evenings and pool bar.
43:24
So.
43:26
RJ Taylor: If, if I can add onto that too.
43:27
One thing I've noticed, which is really funny, so we had this event
43:30
with these 30 young people, and I hate to do that in my day, but, um,
43:35
when I, if my employer sent me to an event, I would go to everything, right?
43:39
It's just like, it wasn't even up for debate, but I noticed with a lot of the
43:43
young folks at this event, when you gave them the exact agenda down to like, this
43:48
is when we're at a brewery for dinner.
43:49
This is where we're axe throwing.
43:50
You know, the, this is when we're in the hotel.
43:52
Like they all like, talked about what they're gonna go to or not as if it
43:57
was like, oh, I'm not gonna do the axe throwing or something like that.
43:59
Like, it was very bizarre for me.
44:01
'cause I was like, this isn't like a sign up for each session thing.
44:06
This is like, you're here and this is, this is a summer camp.
44:09
We're doing everything.
44:09
But it was definitely back to, you know, what, what Tiana was saying about,
44:14
um, a a different generational look at leadership or these sorts of things.
44:19
So I, I think that was, that was a learning for me to, to, to
44:23
maybe not communicate the agenda quite so widely so that people
44:27
can just come along for the ride.
44:28
Like, uh, like what Kaylyn was saying.
44:31
Kaitlyn: Or creating that space.
44:32
Like I just hosted sas, young Farmers Board and like, again, when I, I used
44:37
to be on that board, um, it's full circle for me now, leading the group.
44:41
But like, again, like we were, if we had a few day board meetings, like we
44:45
would eat breakfast together, we would do the board meeting all day together.
44:49
We would eat supper together, we would do an evening activity.
44:51
And now this generation, and I know I'm like not that far removed, but still, like
44:57
they've asked for, like, they want to go start their morning by themselves, right?
45:02
To be in the, and, and it's just adapt.
45:04
So now I don't plan a breakfast, right?
45:05
Everybody's on their own for breakfast and you know, the evening activity
45:08
was supper and then some wanted to go back to their room and some
45:12
wanted to go for a walk, right?
45:13
And it was almost like creating space in the agenda where when I was on the
45:17
board, I'm like, keep me busy from 7:00 AM till 11:00 PM and like, but now it's,
45:23
you know, creating that space and um, allowing for some of that, you know, more
45:28
maybe quiet or mindful, like, but there also needs to be a balance because I
45:33
also think there has to be some, I don't wanna say forced, but, um, you know,
45:37
like, because you don't want, like, that social interaction is also so important.
45:42
So where do you find the balance of creating them, the space that they need,
45:44
but also making them do, you know, get to know each other, kind of, not just
45:49
within the formal meeting portion.
45:52
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and even though
45:54
Kaitlyn: okay.
45:54
Jesse Hirsh: was kind of presented as a joke, I think there's something
45:57
quite brilliant at the idea of having participants be captive, right?
46:03
Of having them be in a space and time where they are kind
46:07
of compelled to be together.
46:09
Because the other element that we're describing here that I think
46:13
is important to name is the genuine scarcity of attention that contemporary
46:19
leaders have to deal with, right?
46:21
It's the scarcity of attention of your members.
46:24
It's the scarcity of attention of the general public.
46:27
I mean, so much of what a leader has to do in our current
46:31
moment is compete for attention.
46:35
When to Caitlyn's point, a lot of people just want to tune out.
46:39
They just wanna disassociate, they just want retreat.
46:43
So I'm curious, and, and Tiana, I'm gonna throw to you, because I think this does
46:48
come back to our symptom of a lack of long-term thinking, even a lack of vision.
46:54
How do we, outside of captivity, outside of capturing people in like an escape
46:59
room or something, do we as leaders, as people who want to foster foresight
47:07
and participatory foresight, how do we deal with this attention issue?
47:12
How do we deal with the larger attention deficit society that
47:15
we kind of find ourselves in?
47:17
Tianna: Well, I honestly don't think it's one thing or another.
47:21
You know, we do talk about this idea of the, the attention deficit,
47:25
but then there's also that sense of wanting to, um, look internally.
47:31
Uh, you know, be more mindful.
47:33
There is this sense of individualism, but there's also that sense
47:35
of wanting to be together.
47:38
Um, it sounds to me actually that both RJ and Caitlyn have done, they've done
47:45
a lot of stress testing already of possible ways of working with people.
47:52
Um, and as the, the leadership is changing 'cause we're, we're
47:57
constantly in motion of, of change and change is changing us as well.
48:03
Um, I think what you're doing actually is that you've already come up with
48:08
some, yeah, you've stress tested how you interact with people and, the attention,
48:16
the attention deficit thing, I don't think you need to be louder or whatever.
48:20
Maybe you need to be more succinct, uh, concise.
48:24
Um, how do you, maybe ask them how they want to be spoken to?
48:30
Like, do we do this in a tweet format?
48:33
what's the, the thing that's, um, the biggest trend that we see happening today,
48:39
you know, like in 140 characters or less.
48:43
and, um, people love data.
48:47
You know, people really do respond to this type of, of, uh, key words or, or assem
48:53
assemblance of something succinct and, and concise, but that they can challenge.
48:59
Um, because we're also in this mode of, you know, AI is a bit of our,
49:04
how do I, how, how do I put it?
49:06
Um, politely is bit of the reg regurgitation machine
49:10
a little bit too, right?
49:11
So there's, there's challenges to that as well.
49:15
So I think this idea of just stress testing as you go along, the possibilities
49:21
of your interactions with people, um, and bringing them, acknowledging that they
49:28
all hold different ideas of the future and have different futures in themselves
49:33
and different possibilities that they see.
49:35
And so is there a format in which this can come out in, you know, sort of a,
49:40
a pattern or pa patchwork type of way that can be, um, not as the answer, um,
49:48
but multitude of answers and also, um, opportunities, uh, for people to, through,
49:55
because I agree, we, we kind of bring our paths with us and say, oh, you know, back
49:59
in my day, or I was part of a, a board and now, you know, it's come full circle.
50:04
It's like, wow, you've gone through a period of whole complete stress testing
50:08
and apply what you think is going to work.
50:11
But also this idea of participation is huge.
50:15
You need to not assume, I think we spoke about assumptions at
50:19
the beginning of this podcast.
50:21
Not assume, um, that, or don't even assume that you should be the one responding.
50:27
And bring, uh, bring others into the, into the network of, um, possibility.
50:34
Jesse Hirsh: Now, Jen, I don't know why I don't know why the phrase stress
50:40
testing associates in my mind with shit sandwich, it, it did kind of make me want
50:47
to pivot and throw to you and say, I, I think both RJ and Caitlin have offered
50:52
some, some really smart interventions or design concepts for events.
50:58
suspect you've had to suffer through a lot of really bad events and,
51:02
and boring moments within events.
51:05
And do you have any insights on how they could be done better or to, to
51:08
Anna's point, how they could be more open or accommodating to the types
51:13
of experiences and participation?
51:15
I think we'd all like to see.
51:17
Jenn: Mexico, everybody should just head to Mexico.
51:19
It's the take home message I heard.
51:22
Um, I think it's, I think it's really, I'm gonna say first hats off, Caitlin,
51:28
because I think that is a bold move.
51:30
I have that idea up the flag pole with other organisations and the fear
51:38
associated with the no answer, right?
51:40
Like they say no because they're afraid of the pushback.
51:43
They're afraid of the optics of taking the holiday.
51:48
Right?
51:50
and so, I don't know if I'm gonna answer your question, Jesse, but I
51:53
think that one of the things that I struggle with when planning events or
51:59
when trying to do different with groups is this navigation of the fear response.
52:09
which is often what is root behind the no answer.
52:14
and so comfortably moving people into a bit of a unknown space, like let's
52:19
just try and see what happens, right?
52:22
Um, that, that I find is sometimes the biggest, the biggest hurdle.
52:29
Tianna: Ask for forgiveness after.
52:31
Jenn: Right.
52:32
Yeah.
52:33
What's the worst that could happen?
52:35
It'll be great.
52:35
Don't worry about it.
52:37
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and at the risk of opening Pandora's Box, why
52:41
don't we end on the topic of fear?
52:44
I started this episode on the topic of crisis, which does
52:48
seem to be the relevant context.
52:51
And I think Jen quite rightly points out that often the biggest obstacle
52:56
to new leadership, to new ways of thinking about the future, new event
53:02
configurations, is the fear of the unknown, the fear of something different,
53:07
the fear of something going wrong.
53:10
So I'm curious to hear how you guys deal with fear or the role
53:15
that fear needs to play or not play in how we think of leadership.
53:19
Jen, you wanted to start.
53:20
Jenn: Oh no, I, I, um, I didn't wanna start, I was just saying that sometimes
53:24
it's the fear of failure, right?
53:27
which could be coupled with that fear of backwash.
53:29
But I'm more curious to see what the panellists have to say.
53:33
RJ Taylor: I, I think I'll, I'll cut in here if I could.
53:37
um, I've been having some very, um, in let's call them intriguing
53:43
discussions with fellow fish farmers and specifically business owners Canada.
53:49
Um, because what, what the last five years have shown, um, at least in
53:57
aquaculture, but, you know, I, I start to hear this a little more, um, and, and,
54:00
and maybe Caitlin will back me up or, or tell me this is just a fish problem.
54:03
But, um, we're, we're sort of at a strange precipice where the old ways
54:10
aren't necessarily working anymore.
54:13
And I think folks are starting to realise that doing things the way
54:17
we've always done them is actually riskier than trying something new.
54:22
say that was the case three or four years ago, but I, I feel like, um,
54:27
it, it is, it is absolutely what we're seeing now, and I think it's a bit of
54:31
a, more of a sociological trend that I see because there are lots of places
54:37
that have been trying to do things the way they've always been doing them.
54:40
And then there are the innovators and, and people pushing out there.
54:43
And we're starting to see, um, those people that have been doing
54:47
it the way they always have done it, running into some of these problems
54:51
associated with specifically change or some of these larger supply
54:57
chain energy, um, input cost issues.
55:01
Um, and so I I, the, the optimism in me says that, um, I, I think that that's
55:08
just a, something we need to continue reinforcing that the, the doing that doing
55:13
nothing is, is, is the riskiest choice.
55:17
And, and I, and I would love to, I'm sure you folks are always better at
55:22
interpreting what I say and making it sound, sound a bit smarter.
55:25
I'm sure there's some framework for that, but that's something I,
55:27
a message I would love to leave.
55:30
Jesse Hirsh: Brilliant.
55:32
Kaitlyn: I would agree with you, rj.
55:34
I think lots of organisations that I work with are at that point where they have
55:39
fear if they don't change because they don't have the new director stepping up,
55:43
they don't have the new members joining.
55:45
They don't, you know, they're not seeing, and they're at a point where we either
55:49
need to make a change or the fear of this organisation is going to merge, collapse,
55:56
have no funding, have no members.
55:58
Right.
55:58
And so I would agree with you on that.
56:03
Um, and I had one more thought and it just, um, it left somewhere
56:08
this morning, but I, if I have it, I'll jump back in there.
56:12
So.
56:14
Jesse Hirsh: Please do Tiana.
56:16
Tianna: Yeah, I think that idea of the status quo, um, it may be more
56:21
risky, is, um, a provocation to look at, to embrace uncertainty.
56:28
Um, it's an invitation to embrace the uncertainty.
56:31
Um, and that sounds like a very strange thing to, to say, but I
56:36
am hearing so far is that both Caitlin and RJ have been doing that.
56:41
Um, you know, they, they've taken the, tried to break up the status
56:45
quo, whether that's AGMs or, or how they communicate with people
56:49
or what they do in their agendas.
56:51
You're, you're breaking the mould um, there's, I don't think
56:56
there's anything wrong with that.
56:57
I think some very nice shapes come out of, uh, breaking the mould the
57:04
idea of, um, let's see what happens.
57:07
You can take if you want.
57:09
'cause there was also this idea of risk adverse, um, aversion.
57:14
Risk aversion is like, well, what would happen, what would be the
57:17
first order of consequence to this?
57:20
What would be the second order of this?
57:22
And try to map it out for yourself a little bit.
57:26
What's the worst that can happen even to that?
57:27
Okay, if it's going to be a no, what's the worst that's going to happen?
57:32
And can I loop back and try to actually make this seem like the other
57:35
person's idea in the first place?
57:38
You know?
57:39
Um, so I think there's a way of, um, slowing down, um, taking a, taking a
57:46
beat, uh, in the face of fear and, you know, tapping in to those resources
57:53
that you already have about, okay, the worst thing that's gonna happen?
57:58
And think about it.
58:01
take, take the time to think about it and, and, and map it out for yourself.
58:05
Um, because you, you might be surprised with, uh, what you come
58:09
up with rather than hand ringing.
58:11
I think it's a way to get out of hand ringing.
58:13
Kaitlyn: Maybe Jesse, if I could just quickly jump in here and talking
58:17
about kind of fear and leadership.
58:19
My, my thought has come back to me, but I feel like, and we haven't said this
58:23
word all call, but post COVID, OVID, um, we were all very, I feel like lots
58:30
of people were trying to protect their ground and protect their organisations
58:33
and it was very, like, I felt like, um, we lost kind of the collaboration
58:39
that agriculture is known for, right?
58:40
But in the last probably year or two, I've seen some of that drop.
58:45
And I think we've seen more collaboration.
58:48
And I think if we really, truly want to see change, um, and have
58:52
new leaders, like collaboration is what this industry is known for.
58:55
And we have to make sure that that's priority, right?
58:58
And so it's not the fish industry versus the canola industry, right?
59:03
But it's like, how do we both win, right?
59:05
How do we all win?
59:07
And I think that's just so important.
59:08
'cause I know lots of, um, you know, young farmers are like,
59:11
I don't want that rhetoric that it's, um, this or that, right?
59:17
Why can't it be both, right?
59:18
Why can't we come together and work together?
59:20
And I think that's, um, something that we just as leaders sometimes need to also
59:25
leave our egos at the door and walk in and say, you know, we have to make the,
59:31
what's best for this industry, right?
59:33
And not what's best for me, or even what's best for my, you know, canola.
59:39
But it's what's going to be best for the agriculture industry as a whole.
59:44
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
59:45
And I, I, I need to emphasise, uh, just how brilliant all of you
59:50
have been in today's conversation.
59:53
And, and I say this partly because it's part, some of the simplest things have
59:57
turned out to be the most brilliant, the Dominican Republic, Mexico example,
1:00:03
uh, is one in particular, right?
1:00:05
In, in hindsight it's like, oh yeah, that makes total sense.
1:00:09
But it's the fact that you are shifting the venue, When you keep the rats
1:00:14
running in the same maze, they are not gonna find a new way to get the
1:00:17
cheese, but you take them outta the maze and all of a sudden they're gonna
1:00:22
start talking about different ways in which they could enjoy the cheese.
1:00:26
I think that's part of what we've done today.
1:00:28
That's part of what the future herd tries to do in that it tries to get
1:00:32
people outside of the usual conversations and imagine new possibilities.
1:00:37
And as always, we end an episode where I've got a million more
1:00:41
things I wanna ask about.
1:00:43
And Caitlin, I think you summed it up perfectly in that collaboration a subject
1:00:51
I think we should come back to today.
1:00:53
We talked about leadership.
1:00:56
am proposing that as a group, we get back together at some point in
1:01:01
a mutually agreeable future and dig deeper into the issue of collaboration.
1:01:06
'cause I think to Tiana's repeated point, we're thinking about collaboration in
1:01:14
an old, dated, obsolete way and that you guys are stress testing new types
1:01:21
of collaboration that we should dig deeper into, into a future episode.
1:01:26
And, and I hope you guys are amenable to that.
1:01:29
Any final words?
1:01:31
Tianna: I just wanna say thank you again.
1:01:33
I think I've learned a lot from Caitlin and rj, and it was a real
1:01:38
pleasure to, to meet you both.
1:01:41
you've certainly made my mind, uh, stretch my ideas around collaboration
1:01:48
and also meetings in a, in a way that, um, that's super, that's super helpful
1:01:54
and I'm also glad to hear that there's so much optimism as well, for, for what
1:01:59
comes next because, um, the headlines, uh, you're the antidote, both of you to the
1:02:05
headlines that I'm reading, so thank you.
1:02:08
Kaitlyn: I would just echo that and say it's great to connect with
1:02:11
people who have similar mindsets.
1:02:13
Um, and it's good to know that you're not alone, right?
1:02:17
And there's other people who are, you know, trying to maybe solve some of
1:02:20
these big crisis or issues or problems.
1:02:24
So yeah, great conversation.
1:02:26
And yeah, Jesse, collaboration could be probably a whole other episode.
1:02:31
RJ Taylor: Yeah.
1:02:32
And Jesse, we, we, I mean, I guess to speak on my behalf and maybe
1:02:36
all of us, we, we would be nowhere with these answers, without your
1:02:39
enthusiastic questions and responses.
1:02:41
So thank you for, for bringing us together.
1:02:43
Um, and even, even today, like even in the agriculture space, I feel like
1:02:47
a very Ontario centric, we, we think we're being collaborative in our own
1:02:51
way 'cause it's different sectors.
1:02:52
But today showed, showed me there's a, there's a bigger country,
1:02:55
there's a bigger world out there.
1:02:56
I'm really honoured to, to be here today, um, with some non Ontario folks too.
1:03:01
So thank you.
1:03:02
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
1:03:03
And thank you Jen, uh, uh, for mobilising organising and really
1:03:08
making this particular episode happen.
1:03:11
Uh, do you have any final words other than, uh, take off a.
1:03:16
Jenn: No, I just, I really enjoyed today's discussion and it was just
1:03:19
so lovely to see three people who I always enjoy having conversations
1:03:23
with come together in one space.
1:03:25
So it was a real treat for me.
1:03:27
Thank you.
1:03:29
Jesse Hirsh: Thank you all.