Latest / Sutra Squad / Ep. 25v2 Sutra 2.17 On the Confusion of the Self and Seer

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Ep. 25v2 Sutra 2.17 On the Confusion of the Self and Seer · Sutra Squad

• Seth Barron: If you feel you have suffered a loss, ask who is the loser? You'll find that you are still here. You didn't lose yourself, but just something that you had that will greatly reduce your sorrow. I'm gonna cry. When you mix yourself up with your possessions, pull yourself out of the mire and your feelings will change greatly. You'll be a different person. Hello and welcome to the Sutra Squad podcast brought to you by One Deep Breath. My name is Seth Barron, and I am so thrilled to be joined by the Superstar Sutra Squad. Superstar Sutra Squad. Yeah, I got that right. Yeah, did it, did it. Okay. Sally. Sally Moore. Welcome. And Sarah Page Hall. Hello, everybody. ⁓ Sarah Page, a word from you for right now. Right now. Right now. Distracted. Distracted. Okay. Distracted. Great. Great. Sally? I'm going with excited. I feel on the edge of something. On the edge of glory. I'm on the edge of something and I'm not sure what. It's probably probably glory. ⁓ some kind. I am like ⁓ I'm like all of it. Like ⁓ all the things. ⁓ the up, the down, the in the out. and I'm just trying to witness it, which is like, you know, it's it's ⁓ we were talking about this before we started and and it never it never gets old that somehow the wisdom that we're gonna speak about on the podcast always, always, always feels like The exact thing that's going on in my life that like the exact wisdom I need to navigate the moment that I'm having in my life. and that just feels like so wildly true this week. So this week we are continuing from where we left off, where we last left our heroes. ⁓ we're in the second chapter of the Yoga Sutra, the Sama, ⁓ the sadhana paddha. And We've talked about the obstacles to yoga, and we've talked about last week we talked about this idea that the suffering that can be avoided is to be avoided because there's real pain and challenge and setback and tragedy and trauma. All that is super real. And the suffering is our attachment to it. Our suffering is our fixation on it. Our suffering is ⁓ And like that's the part that if we it's a little like if we know better, then we gotta do better. And we're gonna go deeper into that this week because the following verse, so last week that was Heyam Dukama Nagatam and 16th sutra of the second chapter. And this week we're gonna stay right in it and just talk about two seventeen. Draste Drasya Yo Sam Yoga Heya Het. So let's get ourselves ready for just this moment, right here and right now. And if it is safe for you to do so, you could just close your eyes. And if it is possible, maybe sometimes I think of this as like I take a big step back in my I just take a big step back, I step out of the doing and into the watching. Right. So I'm not the doer. Right now I get to just be the observer. And your physical sensations are a great place to start that kind of observation, to cultivate this this the seat of the witness. Maybe notice something you can feel on your skin. you hear in your ears like the sound of my voice? Think you smell? Something you taste. And maybe something you feel in your heart, if there's an emotion. Or a a mindset. There's no right or wrong. It's just a moment to just observe it. Let it be. There's nothing to change. Nothing to fix or handle. Just give yourself a moment to pause and observe. And if you like, you can bring your hands together in Anjali Mudra. Sit up nice and tall, take a deep breath in. Let it go. And if it's available to you, join me for an ohm inhale. Yoga Sutra two seventeen. Draster Driso Sam. Draster Drista. ⁓ might have recognized a word that we've talked about before. And ⁓ it's the second word. So the first is dr. It's a funny word to pronounce because like the like str str is the best way I know how to do it. Yeah, you could practice that. Str. Like it's like a flip of the tongue on the r. Dr. If I was teaching this ⁓ in a class, I would ask anyone to chime in. But ⁓ Drasthir is the seer, right? Tada Drastusvarupevastanam, one point two, or excuse me, one point three. ⁓ Tada Drastur Sra Svarupe Vastanam. So the seer shines forth in their in their radiant glory or true splendor. So this is the seer, and it's spelled in English, S-E-E-R. It's not seer like a fortune teller. It's seer like the one who sees. And then Drishya, same root as drish DRS, and the same root as a word we use very often in asana practice, which is drishti, which ⁓ drishti means focal point or gaze, like the the placement of your gaze. Sometimes to me, it also means like intention as a proxy for the placement of your attention. Right. Like what's in your drishti? Like what what's in the what's in the line of sight of your mind and of your eyes is a literal expression of it. ⁓ but in this case, the word is drishyayo, so it's the same root. So we're still talking about like this idea of see to be seen, seeing. And in this case, it's that which is visible. So drastur drishyao, right there is this like contrast of the one who sees and what is seen. And then sam yoga. So now here's that another word we know yoga. Yoga, which is like the bringing together, the joining, the yoking, union. and then here, sam is together with completely, absolutely, like ⁓ samyama or samadhi, right? Like total and complete. So like this like total and complete. In now fascinatingly, here the translation is confusion or confusing. And I should say here, ⁓ for these for these translations, I'm referencing Inside Patanjali's words by Reverend Jagannath Carrera, ⁓ an absolutely amazing, incredible, such it's it's a beautiful text. and then heya, that can be a bitted, hey yeah. ⁓ that which can be avoided, like heyah, hey yeah. ⁓ and then hitu. The cause. Okay. So, like again, these two verses are really very useful to see together. Heyam, dukam and nagatam. Heyam avoided. So there's the same, like heyah, heyam. ⁓ dukam, which we talked about last week, is like suffering, right? Like pain, and a nagatam, like not not yet come. So, like avoid the suffering that has not yet come. I was ⁓ having a conversation with somebody a few like a month ago. And this is a woman who's like going through she's going through it. She's got a kid with very extensive special needs, like that needs really constant care. And she's the founder of a nonfor profit and she's navigating breast cancer. Thankfully she's looks like she's gonna be fine. And she started saying about a conversation she had with somebody about something that she thought was gonna upset them, and she said, Don't get pre med. Don't get pre-mad. I love this. I've I was like, girl, I'm stealing that. That is good. Don't get pre-mad. Right. So it's like, don't pre-suffer. Like, don't suffer the stuff that you don't have to suffer. And which we talked about, you know, in our on our last episode. Like, what if you really actually like didn't like it? Life is going to be hard enough that you don't have to make it harder by suffering the things you don't have to suffer. And so then this week we get further where. This idea then is there's the seer and the seen, and we get confused. And so, like, that's the cause of the suffering that can be avoided. So Master Carrera translates the whole verse the dissatisfaction and suffering, dukkha, that can be prevented, like the that which can be prevented, is caused by confusing the nature of the seer with that of the seen. And I'm gonna read a beautiful paragraph here from his commentary. This apparent not real union of seer and seen is not a permanent, irreversible state. A coming together now means falling apart in the future. In nature, all things formed from a combination of elements eventually return to a more fundamental state. The elements separate. It is important to understand that the contact, union, or conjunction referred to here is like the contact of a stone with water. The water cannot pervade the stone, yet the water does obscure the stone's nature. We can't truly know the qualities of the stone until it is viewed out of the water. Similarly, the seer is never polluted or changed by its conjunction with the scene, but we need to be able to experience the seer without the distorting lens. Of the scene. Okay. So we're in it. We're in it. What ⁓ other translations did either of you find? And whoever wants to go first, feel free to just jump in of this verse that really like sort of spoke to your heart and made you sort of gave you like because like I know when I read that, I didn't I just even rereading it now, it's just like blah blah blah blah blah blah. ⁓ it's a it's a it's a Big, big, big idea that we're talking about today. And and so yeah, what what's called what called out to your heart when you were doing some some looking around? I actually thought it I was gonna go in a different way and that's why I'm not I'm not. I'm doing something else. shocking, shocking. So anyway, I'm doing the yoga signatures of Patanjali, and I'm also gonna reference not right now, but eventually, Aingar, Sri Swami Sachatananda did this one. And I love this and I'd forgotten when I was looking at this, I have such a great flashback to when we first went through this. ⁓ back what, five years ago? Something like that. ⁓ something that completely six like changed the way that I'm like it's 2026 and we were doing this is like right around the time when we started 2020. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I love this. And so all of a sudden I'm having such a lovely flashback actually, because it was just such a great yeah, yeah. And it says we speak of ourselves in two ways. One is look at my body, isn't it slim? And then the other is look how slim I am. Well, who is slim? Is it you or your body? This identification with other things is the cause of all our pain. Instead, if we were just ourselves always, things may change or stay as they are, but they will never cause us pain because the changes will be the things that we possess and not in us. And I have to go on. It goes, there's a great, a great, ⁓ God, I love this. Okay, it says when you suffer, you know you suffer. When you're happy, you know you're happy. You are the true self. You are the knower. You know everything. That knowing is permanent. You know that you have a headache, but and here's the point at the same time you say, I am aching. This identification should be avoided. If you feel you have suffered a loss, ask who is the loser? You'll find that you are still here. You didn't lose yourself, but just something that you had that will greatly reduce your sorrow. I'm gonna cry. When you mix yourself up with your possessions, pull yourself out of the mire and your feelings will change greatly. You'll be a different person. And I just remembered what we say, you know, you gotta be careful how we speak about ourselves or our situations. Because it becomes a manifestation. It becomes real. We had this conversation right before class about just certain things. And it's, you know, we are people, the three of us are people who do a lot of this work. We do this work. We love this work. We do the work. And still, I'll stand in the middle of class and see somebody and think, they don't like me. It's me. Y'all, they don't like me. I am a bad teacher. And it goes in my head and I know that I'm I know I'm not a bad teacher, but it's like and I'll stop myself steady and I'll say, or I'll say, that person doesn't like me. And it, you know, it becomes true. Or then there's the scarcity mindset. I'm always broke. Or the physical, I look ugly. It's just what we say. I can't do, I can't, I'm not Yeah. Yeah. I can't do that. Well, no, you never will. Right. And I had that conversation with somebody in class just today and they're like, I can't do that. And I'm like, well, then you never will. Right. Have you Because you have already can you know, you can't you you you just have to see yourself in a different way. Not identify with that negative self-talk. Anyway, so yes. I thank you. Thank you, Seth Ananda. I love you. And I love how s how how he I was reading along with you because I was I think I love I was actually We did not plan this, but I had literally like booked, I'd earmarked that this page in my copy of the such and on the book to read that paragraph. So no, it's perfect. It's actually perfect because it's so beautiful. But he also says the cause of that avoidable pain is the union of the seer, purusa, and the seen Prakriti. And and I think that that's like a really interesting dynamic to add. So we've talked about this a little bit before, but ⁓ just just for the ⁓ reminder that in Sankhya Yoga philosophy, there's this construct of the spiritual energy, like the the eternal purusa, and then the material energy, the energy of the material world, which is prakriti. And like your your body is prakriti, your this computer screen is prakriti, this microphone, right? Your thoughts. Because even in even the ancients understood that like there is a physiological experience of your mind and of your emotion, and that it's real and of the material world. And that this confusion at the at the at the intersection of prakriti and purusa is exactly this suffering that we are being instructed to avoid. Sally, what's a what I'm I I suspect I know where you're gonna go, but but you know, please like either go there or surprise me. What's a verse that's a translation? either way I know it'll be beautiful. Okay, well I I pulled a few out and it's s they're all to me similar, but what I like is when they just change the word one and I never know if it's that's like translating from Sanskrit to English is It makes things more limited, but I love when we talk about this in all these different words and then there's a word that quit. So from Unravel the Thread with Ruben Vasquez, I have 2.17. The cause of suffering that can be avoided is the tendency to conflate. I kinda looked that up, mix up awareness with what is experienced. And I love said that suffering is the result of. Confusing your awareness, your senses, your sense being, with the vehicle of awareness, your organism. And the awareness that enables you to witness this process is what brings consciousness to all that you experience. The experience, however, are temporary and ever-changing. That awareness uses the body and all experiences as an instrument yet. is not the instrument. ⁓ wait. Say that again, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The experiences themselves, however, are temporary and ever-changing. So the scene. That awareness uses the body and all experiences as an instrument, yet it, the seer, is not the instrument. Then ⁓ from the secret power of yoga by Nishila Joydevi. The source of these difficulties is the inability to recognize the divine spirit, the seer, as omniscent, which I'm probably not pronouncing, but I'm omniscient, so wise, well-informed. And therefore separate from the constantly changing world, natural world scene. And what she goes on to say is once we realize that everything in nature changes, we liberate ourselves from wanting things to be different than they actually are. We actually enjoy every moment. And she goes on if we trust our intuitive wisdom, everything can be enjoyable because we have found the magic wand to convert everything that life brings into joy. I looked up that word because I was looking at that. So I looked up omniscient. And it means having complete, unlimited knowledge, awareness of ⁓ or understanding of all things. And it goes on to say, often used to describe a divine being or a narrative voice. That's the intuitive part, right? It signifies yeah. It signifies all knowing. Of course, of course, Sally and Seth, we're looking at like the exact same things. So go ahead, Sally. I'm sorry. When I saw that and then I was so lucky I was sharing before we started recording, I went to ⁓ gosh, I w I should know the name, but Baron Baptiste taught something an hour from my house. Come to your edge. I don't have it exactly right, but ⁓ two and a half, three hour yoga workshop practice. I drove, you know, the hour to go there and then I brought my books with me and I I st studied a little bit while I was enjoying a amazing month. ⁓ I'm telling you, grapefruit soda matcha. Grapefruit soda matcha? So good. Really? Good. I like grapefruit. I like soda. All right. All right. All right. I'm looking at we are intrigued. I have all the story. You know, I'm not enough because I'm going by myself. And then the the other part of me would say, ⁓ actually you didn't actually invite anyone to come with you. Like I was going back and forth. Between seats. And then as I got closer, I was like, ⁓ I forgot my mat. And then I went into what kind of idiot goes to a yoga practice and doesn't bring a mat and then I was like, No, all kinds of people. It doesn't, you know, blah blah. Like it's We don't carry mats in the city. Like a lot of yogi is it's a city thing. A lot of studios rent mats in New York City. 'Cause like what am I gonna do with a mat all day? I wanna tell you that. I was so grateful that then I sat, I got there early and I sat and I read these books and I thought about these practices and I enjoyed that delicious matcha in the sun. And then when I went in, ⁓ there was a few different experiences of going in, but there was a I think because of reading this, I was really observing the seer and the scene in me. And I had some tools to bring me back, like noticing am I drifting off into the scene and creating some sort of story. And then there was a woman next to me and she was fidgeting so much. And at first I thought she's wiping her mat and then not wiping her mat. And she just was up and down and off of it. And at first I found myself being kind of critical like what are you fidgeting? You know, I just I was like, no, just come back to this moment. Just be open hearted. And then I suddenly thought I was feeling uncomfortable in the moment. My go-to when I'm uncomfortable is shutting down. So she might have very well been thinking, what's with this lady? She thinks she's a statue. She can't move. But it just opened up this beautiful moment when I thought I'm judging harshly because I'm actually judging myself harshly. that part my heart and get in the capital S E E R. And observe this without bringing like my heart is tightening up, without bringing the flopping back and forth so much. And then I thought, possibly she's also uncomfortable. And then I suddenly would felt such gratitude for her because I thought sometimes I find it very hard to see what I'm doing in the situation, but then another person. Through them I learn about myself and I just heart like open to her, it opened to myself. It I it felt like it opened some blind spots. So anyway, I it felt like a very interesting thing jumping back and forth between the scenery and making the scene and all that. And that's the way it is though, right? I mean, that is the way it always is, is that we You know, our brains are like little snow globes. I'll speak from I. My brain is like a little snow globe. It's always kinda it's always kind of doing its thing. And I as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, you've gone through an entire life cycle, right? You know, an entire and and the thing is, is how often is it that we have those stories that we see it, and we have those stories, and there's nothing even remotely similar to the story. Right. That's like the don't get pre mad. Like, like, like the pre-med is like, ⁓ Sally's gonna be all like this, and then I'm gonna be all like that. And then how many times that you go into like a conversation, you have this whole story. It's gonna be tough and it's gonna be hard, and it's gonna be, they're gonna be like this. And then I right. And I I mean, I don't know if anybody else is this. Like I play the script out over and over and over again. And then all of a sudden, that person just shows up and and it's like not what you thought it was. Or they're like, ⁓ yeah, did you see that crazy thing that I that I like that I did because like and then they're like, ⁓ because blah bitty blabbity blue blubbly? And then you may remember maybe they already told you about the blabbity blah bitty blue blubbly and you had just forgotten it. And so now you're all pre-med at them about something that is like totally not happening at all. The only place it's happened is up here. And yet, how much suffering did you spin up in the in that in the pre-med, right? I know. And she said like that's that's what I heard when she was saying like the don't be that's why I mentioned the don't be pre med thing. It's like, it's like that's the that's the the confusion, right? And I you know, I think there's there's another like stitch I want to make here too. So we didn't go into the details of the of the definitions of the Kleshas, but if you just like circle back with me for a couple of weeks. So we started the second chapter and we talked about the Kriya Yoga, Tapas Vajarya Ishraya Pradana. Which is like the the heat or austerity or friction, the self-study and the and the surrender. Or we also called that we I wrote it down because it's was so beautiful. We talked about it as enthusiasm, intelligence, and humility, right? That these are the essential elements of the practice of the yoga of action, Kriya yoga. But then Master Patanjali tells us we we get it. You're human and stuff's gonna come up and get in the way. And the five core obstacles. Are Avidya, Asmita, Raga Dvesha, Apina Vesha, ⁓ in reverse order, Apinavesha clinging to life, Dvesha pain, raga pleasure, and then asmita egoism or I amness, and then the root. I'm saying them in reverse order because I'm like tracing them back to the roots, which is avidya. And I want to get the there's two references I want to make to that. One is in the book that's in my other hand, and in this new slight setup of my desk, I have to be a little bit careful about how I'm moving around with my books on the microphone. A vidya, here we go, has is this is ⁓ the root is ⁓ which is ⁓ not knowing. like well, the like ⁓ is a negation. And then in this case, vidya, vid to know, to feel, experience, being, existing, obtaining. and it's most literally like not knowing, right? That this misunderstanding or a misknowing of spiritual truth is the source of our suffering. It's the source of the klass. But then, like a little bit later in the text, Master Patanjali then gives a verse to describe the nature of each of those klass. And it in fact Avid is so important, he gives us two. The first is that ignorance is the field for the others mentioned after it, whether they be dormant, feeble. Intercepted or sustained. So like this avidya, like it can arise, it arises from from experience, from in from from like even subtle, right? It can be very subtle. But then it's this definition in two point. So this is the real one I wanted to circle back to is Yoga Sutra 2.5, and I will spare you the Sanskrit. ⁓ as translated by Swami Satchidananda, ignorance is regarding the Impermanent as permanent, the impure as pure, the painful as pleasant, and the not self as the self. Like this is the s we're examining like the same seed, you could say, right? That when when we're looking a little bit later at this heyam dukkamanagatam and then drastur driosamyo heyahit sam yoga heya hitu, it's the same idea, right? That like In this case, the seer and the seen. Right. And if you go and then look back at 2.5, the impermanent as permanent, the self and the not self. The seer and the seen. Right? The seer is the true self. The seen is the temporary arising and then falling phenomena. Like and I love that framing from from Reverend Carrera that like everything is just a combination of elements for a little while and then it will always sort of dissolve itself, resolve itself back. It's like you know, there's these beautiful Buddhist practices of making mandalas that are designed to be destroyed. And in fact, there's whole practices in different tantric Buddhist traditions where like Where y ⁓ the artisans make a mandala, like a beautiful design of have you ever seen a sand mandala? Yeah, like you can Google it if you if you've never seen one. They're so intricate and they're so beautiful. And as soon as they're completed, there's a ceremony and then they just wipe it all away. It is never it like never to be seen again. It is gone. They don't even like like pictures are funny. Like they don't even love pictures of them because like the point of it is its impermanence and it's a practice of impermanence. And so like the scene is fundamentally impermanent. The seer is fundamentally permanent, right? All prakriti is subject to change. That is its fundamental nature. It is made up of the gunas, and the gunas are in constant mutation, right? And this idea is that purusa is that which transcends. The Parakriti. It's like it is apart from, as opposed to being a part of, right? And like, so here's another framing of this whole big idea. Just follow along. And this is because there's a very central foundational construct of Sankhya and yoga philosophy. You have a body. Every one of us has an embodied form. You're in a rental car meat sack. Okay. And your body, first of all, you don't have the same body you did five years ago, 10 years ago. Think about like you can imagine or remember a time maybe when you were younger and you were 15 and you don't have the body you have now. I don't have the 15 year old body at 47. I don't have the body I had at 37. And I don't know the body I'm gonna have at 57. I hope it still works for me. But it's gonna change. So the body changes, and you are capable of observing the sensation of your body. And that's everything from like knowing the interception that you can like, for example, feel pressure on your bladder and know that you have to go empty your bladder. You can observe that. So you have a body, but your body changes and you can observe your body. So you are something beyond just your body. Like It's just, it's gotta be that way. Like you can't not, you are not the body. Okay. Then you have sensations and you can observe the sensations. So the sensations arise and they fall, they come and they go. So you can observe them and you're not your sensations. And you have thoughts, right? When you sit and be still, then all of a sudden thoughts occupy the mind. Just because you have thoughts, then you can observe your thoughts if you really cultivate some stillness. Take that big step back, like I was talking about. I once said a beautiful guided meditation, and I love this image of seeing the thoughts as if they're projected on a screen behind your forehead. And you're the seer, you're the observer, you're the witness sitting in the theater of your own mind, just watching them, the images and the thoughts. Okay, so now you are with some practice, it is possible to cultivate an observation of your own thoughts. So you then cannot be your thoughts. And you also know you're not your thoughts because you don't act on every thought that you have. Sometimes you have thoughts that you would never act on, but you have the thought. I've had, I I was saying it's it's my it's my Mitchiversary. So I have a little dog and his name is Mitch and he's one of the most brilliant lights of my life. ⁓ I'm like f like a little bit a little bit obsessed, a a little lot bit obsessed with my dog. And I had moments when I was potty training him where I had some thoughts. I was not gonna happen, but there was more than a thought or two of like, right? But okay, I can observe that thought and be like, no, no, no, no, you're not gonna kill your dog. Like, you're not gonna kill this puppy. You're gonna make it. So you can observe the thoughts. So you're not your thoughts. And you have feelings and emotions. And if you're again, if you cultivate the practice of like observing your feelings and emotions, one, you can observe them and you can name them and you can acknowledge them. And two, They will change. Your emotions will change. So you're not your emotions. So, like, what's left? Right? What's left is pure awareness. What's left is consciousness. What's left is purusa. What's left is this idea that you are something more. And it is where we get confused. It is the point of that intersection of the seer and the scene. Right? The self, the not self, the temporary and the permanent. Like this is the suffering that we have to avoid. And and I think, you know, let's let's talk about it too, Sarah Page. You said, like, you mentioned something that I think is so important, which is that like the l which is the language we use. English is a funny language, right? So I I also speak Spanish. And so like in romance languages, there are two different verbs that describe to be. One implies like a fixed state. And one very intentionally implies a transitive state or something that changes. And in that, you know, and so in like you would say something like you describe your emotional state using the the verb, the the version of the verb to be that implies its changeability, its mutability, its fungibility. Whereas you describe other things like like the nature of a table of a like of a of a fixed material object as not changing. Right. Yet when somebody asks you a question like, hey Sally, how are you? You would say, I'm good. Now I'm now I'm the yogi who sometimes look ⁓ is taken to like when somebody when somebody responds to me that way, I'm like, Well, I know that. I know you're good. Like I believe in your goodness. I'm like actually quite certain of your fundamental goodness. What I'd really like to know is how you feel right now. And noticing when you start to say, I'm happy versus I feel very happy. And it sounds like one of those like sort of eye roll-y, you know, snowflaky things, but it's actually a wildly powerful tool of self-empowerment. Because like I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, right? Like I'm all of the things. I'm like, I'm all of it. Now the question is like, how am I right now? And how do I feel right now? And how can I acknowledge that again, like I am, like, I don't know, am I am I Seth? Like this physical form is Seth, and this habit that I've developed of my ego is Seth. BKSI Ingar says something and I really like it and goes to some something what you're talking about right now, Seth and Sally, what you were talking about, the the the way he calls it oscillation, how we oscillate between. And I love that. And he says the seat of the ego or small self is the seat of the brain. And the seat of the great self is in the spiritual heart. Though intelligence connects the head and the heart, it oscillates between the two, meaning we know, but we don't know, meaning our, you know, we don't feel it in our heart. We know it intelligently, but if we don't feel it in our heart, if we don't feel it in our bones, and he goes, This oscillation ceases through right knowledge and understanding. So that that going back and forth, right knowledge and intelligence is then transformed. Free from polarity, pure and unbiased. And this is something I love. This is true meditation, in which ego, a smita, dissolves, allowing the great self, Parusa, to shine in its own glory. It's just a beautiful, and it's like, you know, oscillate. It's all of it right there, right? Intelligence is then transformed, free from polarity. Pure and unbiased. This is true meditation. Can you imagine if and think about the ego dissolving? Like the ego dissolves. Go ahead, Sally. Sorry. I love that you brought Oscillate into the conversation because I like this is not a perfect, it's a practice. We're human. Thank you. How many times do I say that it's a bumper sticker in my classes? It's a bumper sticker. This is But so was this life. Well, and what I love about it, what I noticed in that yoga class on Sunday, which was a brilliant yoga class, and I'm so glad that I had this sutra in my mind because I think it I got even extra more out of it. but I also kind of noticed, I don't remember if I told earlier, so I had the the what I would put in the negative feeling category of the scene pulling me into these what I would call quote unquote negative experience. But I also ran into one of my very first teachers who really supported me at a hard time in my life. And so although I was still confusing the scene with the seer when I saw her and I felt the warmth and we gave each other a hug. Like I what I was able to observe, like, even though that's a so called positive feeling or the reaction, it's still not the pure seer. And something really helpful to be able to see me slide, me oscillate from what I perceived as negative to positive and to not get stuck in either. And I do see Carrera says one more thing similar right in line with all this. If we believe that we are the mind, we tend to make choices that serves its whims, fears, and habits. We look to sense objects, the scene to bring security, happiness, and wisdom, and to give us what they really cannot. This mistaken approach to life is the cause of pain and is rooted in avidya or ignorance. And that's Like I remember thinking Jessica was the name of the teacher that I saw, like, ⁓ my God, I'm so glad you're here. Like I feel warm and I feel safe. Amazing to see. But it was not her job or her presence to get me in the seat of the seer. Felt way more comfortable than the moments when I told myself stories about not belonging or not being wanted. You know, so ⁓ I really I like that I'm gonna think about oscillating. Yeah. Well, and like and notice how you respond when people I think like I I get I get so this is a New York y thing. You know, I live in the city and one of the very common points of conversation is ⁓ so what do you do? And I'm I'm always like is my response. I d only in that, like, not like because if you're asking me what I do for money, it's none of your business. And how about that? Like what I do is breathe. ⁓ I try to like think big and I try not to go too s like bogged down and bullshit. ⁓ Because in in the city especially, like it's just like the common cocktail sort of conversation, like, ⁓ what do you do? What do do? Right. And like one is it just shows us like how much we associate our identity to work, especially in places like New York City. ⁓ and it also like there's this weird way of people sort of sizing each other up and trying to figure out like how quote unquote important you are or are you, or and and like now to be clear, I'm not trying I I'm painting with a bit of a broad brush, like There are times and circumstances where it's very interesting to ask somebody that, maybe because they pursue a specific point of passion and a that's an area of interest of yours, or maybe because you just see that they're like this really interesting person and you're having an interesting conversation. You say, like, hey, like like how do you spend your day? Or like what what keeps you like, you know, or or somebody speaks about like a business that they run because it's a passion project and like, like that's all great. But the sort of like mindless, ⁓ so what do you do? Like, I've started to take I've taken to and like because I do have a job and I could give you a sexy job title and like actually quite literally. And I'm not gonna talk about my employer on this podcast. very intentionally. But like I I I intentionally will answer like I breathe. You know, I right now I'm yeah, yeah. We were we were at we were at an event and Sarah Page and I and somebody's and somebody said to What do you do? And I was like, Yeah, I breathe. And I remember thinking to myself internally, going, ⁓ don't ask him that. Don't, don't do that, don't do that, don't ask him that. And and this person was like really disarmed. They like, Well, ⁓ and I'm like, Are you asking what I do for work? Cause like, like, or when somebody says, Hey, how are you? and you say, I'm fine, like, of course you are. I know you're fine. Like You know, like notice. I think, I think like this is maybe I'm jumping ahead in our episode a little bit, but it's like the the reason I'm bringing it up here is because like this is where these are the practices that we start to manifest because they have such a huge impact. Another one you hear all the time in New York City, and I'm sure people out there, how are you? I'm so busy. ⁓ my God, I'm so busy. Right? ⁓ I'm so busy. Like doing what? Like, does it matter? Did I ask you if you're If you're busy, if you're scalarful, like, like notice how you how we like are entrained into these responses. Cause like, how are you? Well, I'm good. I know that is true because I believe in the fundamental goodness of every human being. I believe in the fundamental capacity for kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity within every single human, even the ones I don't like. It's difficult, but I'm working on it. But I really do like like. believe that in like in in in the depths of my being. And so like if you ask me how you are, I know how you are. I know the nature of your I know the nature of you. Like like the Buddha, the Buddhists would say it's like the Buddha nature, right? Like it's that the good news of the third noble truth that every single one of us possesses a fundamental inherent capacity and goodness. So like I'm not interested, I mean I know that to be true. Now I'm asking you In this moment, what like describe the experience you're having of your life right now. You know it's so interesting. So much of this, I was thinking twice recently and I don't know where I was, but I fill out forms and it says, What do you do? It's interesting, right? Because I think of how many things between our language when we really don't have words to say what we're trying to say. And that's the beauty of having all books, you know, because You know, we can come up with words that are trying to wrap ⁓ wrap things together. Also it's funny because I am retired from my previous profession and I it's it I kind of get stuck and I think how many times in our human life does are we trained because I don't think before I retire, you know, now I've like Do I say my yoga teacher? Well, I only teach twice a week. Do I I mean it becomes this whole muckety muck about do I say babysit grandkids? And it's a weird one, right? Because I feel like over and over again when we study these sutras, I think of my I watch my grandkids who are growing up and ⁓ like where are we getting boxed in to these kinds of questions and useful? Like maybe for some And there's some use in the question, or maybe it's a really outdated habit or something on your forms, you know? I have to tell you, I was this is interesting to me because my daughter has Down syndrome and it is her birthday today. Happy birthday to my Elizabeth. Hey Elizabeth. I know, I love my girl. Of course that loves Anyway, and she is my greatest teacher. Always has been. And I ⁓ she's a good teacher. She's a great teacher. 'Cause she's the one who'll say, like talking about awareness, you know, or you know, I'll she'll go on and on and on and she'll stop me dead or she'll stop and take my face in hers and say, Mommy, listen to me, you know, 'cause I'm not. And she knows it. And nailed, you know. So but the other thing we're talking about, it's so interesting. So so here she is, she has Down syndrome, and a lot of people would have thought that that was just an an awful thing, including myself at the beginning. That was my story. It has been the best thing ever to happen to me. And the best thing and the thing and the fact of the matter is, it's not bad for her either. You know? People tend to think, you know, this is what and this is you you're talking about saying what do you do or that kind of thing. The thing I have really a knee-jerk reaction around that I have to really watch myself with is Hearing people say, well, they are, you know, they're like it's a whole nother sect of people that just aren't quite suspect. Yeah. Yeah. They're so loving. Well, no, my kid's not loving. If you you know, she'll she'll call you right out. You know, she will. She doesn't have a problem with that. And it irritates me because it puts her in a box that isn't true. And she does not see herself that way. Elizabeth Marion Celicani. Pretty girl, which is what my daddy used to call her, Elizabeth Marion Chalicani, pretty girl, because she is, has such a clear view of herself. Such a clear view of herself. She doesn't get wrapped up in all of this stuff. How are you doing? I'm not good. You know, ⁓ that and and she lives in a very, I want to say, concrete world. She sees things. There's not a whole lot of gray, there's not a whole lot of extra noise. There's none of that. She sees herself very clearly. And it's just ⁓ for me personally, it's a beautiful thing. One time I, because of the way I grew up, always worrying about my weight, always being told that I didn't look right, that I was too fat, that I was, you know, and then I have the whole bunny hole around that. But because when you're born in the South, being a fat girl is not a good thing. It's not, it's not pretty. And listen, when you're born in the north, being a fat boy isn't a good thing either. So I see that. ⁓ this is true. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So ⁓ I'll give you that. So anyway, I remember saying, you know, early on that we that nobody was to in her father's family to discuss her weight, that that was just not going to happen because of the way I was raised. And I remember feeling so proud of myself. Okay, and and nobody did. And consequently, she grew up with a very healthy body self-image. And Lo and behold, you know, I don't know. At some point when I was worried about my weight, I said, you know, Elizabeth, maybe I need to go on a diet, we need to go on a diet. We, we need to go on a diet. She goes, No, I don't. She goes, I'm beautiful. Boom. See her. No, I know. And I'm like, Wow. And she was dead serious. I bet she was. I know. I've met Elizabeth. I have no doubt. Yeah. She told me. She's very concrete. Yeah. No, I don't. You know, and she wasn't ugly about it. She wasn't rude. She's just like, What's wrong with you? Like exactly. It's just a matter of fact. Not not not correct. Yeah. And I gotta tell you, I f you know, for anybody who's listening, never ever, ever just jump to a an assumption about people who have differing needs. Back to a video, right? We don't know what we don't know about ourselves and others. And then when we don't know, I can't remember the word, but you know, it's like fear story, all that stuff creates a story. Do you ever do this in class? I gotta ask you, do you do this in class? Because it goes right to this, Sally. And I'm curious, do you ever say things like, I know it's hard, or I know it's challenging, or I can feel that blah blah blah blah. But that's putting what we think on them. ⁓ that's interesting. Like I guess I guess I frame that more like like I taught I taught I taught a block practice tonight and and I was like it's hard. If it's hard, that means it's working. Sometimes I'll say it like that. I'll be like, look, if it's hard, that means it's working, and you didn't come here because it was easy. Like, so you know, this is just like and I mean, I was actually speaking to this and I said, like, so you can choose. You're gonna choose. Do you suffer it? Or can you allow the sensation, allow the intensity to like clock you in right now? Can you be with it? You don't have to like it. And I certainly don't want it to hurt, right? Like there should we don't want sharp pain. We want lifelong, you know, pain free range of motion and lifelong practice. And like a little bit of sweet pain is good for you. If it's hard, that means it's working. Is sometimes how how I'll put it. And like, don't worry, guys, you're gonna live. You're gonna like no one's gonna die inside no one's gonna die inside angle tonight. I know you've been here for many breaths. I see you. Right? Like so I'll frame it like that, but not like, ⁓ guys, I know it's really hard. That I don't do. I mean, sometimes when the whole room like it's hot and everyone's sweating and people look miserable, sometime I'm like, Are you if you're experience it hard, life is hard. And yoga can be hard. Like I try actually to not put it in there. I try to put more to are you creating suffering? Yeah, exactly. What I like is soften face. What I'll say a lot of times is what I'll say a lot of times is is this instead of of ⁓ using words, going back to the words and how we frame things, I won't say hard, I'll say challenging. Consider it's challenging. Consider that it's not heart. But tonight we were I was working on the heart chakra because it was Elizabeth's birthday and I was feeling, you know, all the heart. So we were working shoulders, did straps. And you would think anyway, and so you could just, I could just feel the frustration. I could just feel. And I talked to y'all about this prior and I said, you know, buying into the frustration, buying into the anger, buying into whatever story is going on in your head is not going to make it better. It's not gonna help. It's not gonna help you at all. No, It's not gonna get you to the end game. Right. Yeah. No one's coming to save like the the the bad news is I hate to break it to you. No one's coming to save you. The good news, the good news is that you do not need saving because like you are the savior. You know, something I actually gave this little Dharma talk at the end of class tonight and somebody I got a very sweet reflection back of like there was a great reminder and I said, like, ⁓ Yeah, something so there's a something so be really beautiful about this study that I've really found very attractive about yoga as a lived embodied practice, right? Yoga as a as a philosophy of really of life, like of this is like how I'm I'm trying to live. Like trying to be up to the big game and I'm trying to play it from the from this place. And that's by the way, that is in every area of my life. and difficult and e in in joyous in in my in my the in the way I spend time that I generate income, the majority of my income to other things I do that have nothing to do with my income, I still want to find a deeper yoga, a deeper connection of all these ideas. And what I said was like the bad news is no one's coming to save you. And the good news is that you don't need that you don't need a savior because you are the savior. And that in all of this philosophy, in all of and and actually it's true in all of the Vedanta, the savior is not from without. The savior is always from within. Even when, even in the stories of like deeply held prayers of like of of Lord Vishnu, of of of Durga, of all of these manifestations of divine energy that come to vanquish enemies, that always arises. From a place of personal practice. Right. There's the story of the great sage Prahlad, who was born to the demons but became this like highly bhakti, high, high, high bhakti yoga, yogi. And he and he was like, he was saved by ⁓ for and now I'm forgetting the details of one of the myths, but like, but like it was because he was so his devotion was so pure. Right. Like, so there's no one like that salvation does not come from without. It always arises, it starts from within, from the devotion. And so the beautiful thing is like you don't need to be saved because you are not, you you are the savior. Like the answer, you like the wisdom is within you. You just need, and we all need ⁓ some reminders along the way of what we know to be true. So with that, let's throw down a teaching tip for the week. If you are gonna bring this, this is a really big idea, but if you're gonna bring it into a class, what's one like tangible thing a a yoga teacher out there could take some inspiration from and and like bring this inspiration into an asana class? Do you wanna start, Sally? Yeah, and I'm gonna switch I ⁓ originally I was saying ⁓ to be in the physical pose of asana class or the physical moment of life. Practice creating the space between seer and what you are seeing and feeling. But I'm gonna say maybe oscillate, notice the oscillation the spaces of seer and seeing, because we're not looking for perfect, we're looking for the awakening, right? Each time you catch yourself entangled in the mind stuff, come back to your current physical foundation. Sarah Paige, how about you? What's a tip to bring some of these ideas into a a class this week? Well, I had something, but now I'm gonna go a different route because notice notice where you are kind of inflicting, for lack of a better word, there's a probably a better word out there, but transferring. Notice where you're transferring your emotions onto your stir onto your students. So notice where you're Where you assume that they are uncomfortable, that they're unhappy, that they are mad at you, that they are, you know, whatever it is. Notice where you're transferring that energy to your students because they feel it. Big time. There's nothing worse. And like I I don't want to say worse. I find it especially uncomfortable when I walk into a a class and it's very clear the teacher is like working something out. You want to give them a muffin basket. I will sometimes say if I give a if I'm starting like if I'm starting a story about something and I'm like, listen, please, I'm fine. I don't need flowers, a card, a muffin basket. I'm fine. This is just a teachable moment that I have gone through. Yes, the point is you talk about it like you're already through it. I Yes, that's my point. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I personally find it's really tricky to talk about what like if it's a in class as a teacher. Like this is a different space where we talk and we like let it be a little bit messy and like what's work in progress. In the studio, like I need enough distance from it to be able to like know how to like breadcrumb it. otherwise it feels a little bit well, it's not about because like it's the risk is that it makes the class about me. And I don't want to be the c the class is not about me, right? I'm just gonna try to remind you of something that you already know and give you some physical form to take. Like that's it. My teaching tip about this idea of the seer and the scene is ⁓ we've used this turn of phrase. I but Bethany once gave this cue. My teacher, my my my brilliant and wonderful teacher, Bethany Lyons once said, drop the significance of the pose. Right. So I'm gonna go with my teaching tip is like don't confuse the practitioner with the practice. As in, like, just take the pose. Let it the like just take the pose today as it is right now, period. And like don't have it mean anything more. It's just triko nasana. It's just triangle pose. Does not mean that you're a good person or a bad person or that you were fat when you were five, you know, in fifth grade, or like it, like we tell ourselves all those things. But like just dropping the significance of the pose means to get out of the story of it, just get into the physical creation of it right now. What is that trikonasana you're gonna create right now? And like don't Confuse the pose with the practice, don't confuse the practice with the practitioner. ⁓ and I think like reminding students all the way through, like, I want you to try your hardest. I want you to give it everything you got, and I want you to not give a shit how it looks or what anybody else thinks about it, or like if it's good or bad, like just drop all that significance, get here right now, child's pose. Right? Okay. And this is, I think this sutra. This is such a juicy point of inquiry. ⁓ because there's just so much richness here in this idea of like how we discern how we cultivate the discernment and the wisdom to know the difference between the seer and the scene. Right. It's a little bit, Sarah Page, can you can you recite it? Lord, grant me ⁓ the A thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Grant me the wisdom. no. It's The serenity pair, God grant me. I looked it up. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Right? The serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Like that is, talk about it's all yoga. Like that is. The work of this verse of all of it, but that is a beautiful touchstone. ⁓ so did I just lose my card? No. I might have just lost my my card. ⁓ no, baby. You get to you can keep it however you want it. ⁓ but ⁓ if there was a if there was a point of inquiry for you, what would it be? I think that the point of inquiry is, you know. And this is inter I think this is an interesting kind of way to look at it. Where have you been telling yourself stories? And where have you been like in the past and it was it had nothing to do with the present or the truth of what was actually happening? Like go back to that. Go back to that moment. I had a year, not gonna lie, I'm fine, everybody. Don't send me cards, nothing. I'm fine. But ⁓ I'm good. I don't like the word fine. I'm good. But I had so many stories about things that just were not true. And I just it felt good to be in that you know, in that suffering. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. You know identify with it because it's the it's the s it that's the but that's the It's the gimme, right? What am I getting? What am I getting out of it? And it's you know, so where is the gimme? Let's just rephrase it. Where is the gimme? What are you getting out of your suffering? Is it worth it? And is it true? Beautiful. Sally, how about you? What's some inquiry this week? You've always got a really interesting ⁓ I'm gonna have to be compassionately curious why I feel like I need to have so much, but with compassion, the invitation for inquiry is can you see the difference between the seer and what you are seeing and experiencing with your senses? Do your thoughts confuse you who you think you are with the situation that you're in? And how can you recognize the seer? and what you are experiencing are not the same. Can you see the power in truly understanding the difference between the seer and the scene? So good. I'm gonna say, ⁓ Couple things. ⁓ one is like notice your language and use your words very, very carefully. And notice when you're using a framing that is like implies a permanence to describe an impermanent state. So here's what I mean by that. Try to say I feel however you feel, as opposed to I am. I am happy. I am this. I am that. I am right. Or like could so like get like really be intentional because the feelings will change, but who you are, and I mean who you really are, that is beyond. So like try to notice the habit of like, I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm busy, I'm this, I'm that. And could you get a little more clear right now? I feel like right now, I feel ⁓ really, really. full content. I feel a little bit anxious that it's late. I feel ⁓ right like I could keep going as opposed to like I'm tired. Well, like I'll wake up in the morning, hopefully, and I'll be tired. So, like, I, I, Seth, like the the ultimate personage of Seth is not tired. It's a passing sensation. So just notice where you use language that like the permanence and the impermanence, so to say. And then, and like like notice the way people ask you questions about yourself or about the like how you answer questions about yourself. And like, listen, just listen. So, like if you're in a social situation and somebody says, What do you do? Like, I'm I mean, I do like to mess with people a little bit now because I find it sort of like fun to needle it. Cause it's like, just ask me what you really want to know. You're really asking me about my career, about my life. Like, do you want to look? Like, I've done this before at parties when somebody I thought was being obnoxious. I've just been like, here's my I've I I've just picked up my phone and like opened it and I've like, Do you want to just read my LinkedIn profile? Like that, like is that what if that's what you want to know? There, that's the information. Have a nice night. ⁓ Like, we're not in a when we're not in the networking mixer. Okay. Like, I wanna know when the last time you went out dancing and saw sunrises. I wanna know like what music makes your heart sing. I wanna know, like, what was the last piece of art that you saw that really challenged you or made you think about something differently? I wanna know, like, tell me about somebody in your life who you call when you like are elated or like need some support. Like I could think of a t I could think of 20 questions to ask you that are more interesting than like what I do for work. So just like notice all those little things. Get out of the default and watch what happens by the way when you interrupt people's default that way. It will make them uncomfortable. It will tell you very quickly, like what and I don't mean this to like imply a judgment. I do mean it to imply a discernment. As in, I would rather associate with people who would immediately clap that and get what I'm doing and like. want to play along as opposed to the people who would find it like annoying because they just want to know what I do. And like that's fine. If that's the plane you're on, enjoy it. I'm not there. It's not there. It makes socializing in New York a little tricky sometimes. But you know, ding. See and I just did it right there. ⁓ it's it's my ⁓ anyway. I I it's it's it's my ⁓ it's my responsibility to end this podcast, is what it is. So ⁓ wow. right now in this moment, I feel such deep and profound gratitude for the two of you who are like I hold so dearly in my heart because we get to engage in this really intimate heartwork together. And like we come to this with such generosity. And ⁓ like we come to each other with so much generosity. And ⁓ and it's it's like a real it's like it's a real privilege. Like I do sometimes say I record a podcast about the Yoga Sutra and I get to say and I do it with two people who I just love and who challenge me and like make me rethink these things that I've been thinking about and like always open new dimensions of my understanding and wisdom and like like talk about people who I wanna just like be in association with. ⁓ I just want to say thank you so deeply, Sally and Sarah Page. It's such a privilege to do this together. Same. Thank you both so much. Same same. All right. So that's it for us tonight. We will be with you again soon on the suture squad. If you have found any benefit from our words, please consider subscribing, leaving us a review. Hey, send it to a friend. ⁓ I we got word that there's like a squad in Rhode Island listening. So if you're in Rhode Island listening, Woo. Thanks for listening. We love you. Twelve more friends. And ⁓ for that I will say good night, good day, good evening, good morning, and ⁓ good luck. And we love you very much. Bye for now.