Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / Fave Hits: 3 things retailers like Ultra & Sephora are looking for, with Everyday Humans Charlotte Chen Pienaar (Part 1)

Transcript

Fave Hits: 3 things retailers like Ultra & Sephora are looking for, with Everyday Humans Charlotte Chen Pienaar (Part 1) · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

• 0:00
  Hey there, I'm recording this quick message to let you know that for the next few episodes, we'll be playing some of our favorite hits from the past year while we knuckle down on some very new exciting things we have in the works. If you missed these the first time around, they are so good and packed with so many learnings. And if you love them, remember to share with us on social media because we love it when you do that. Enjoy. This is Charlotte Chen Pinar for Female Startup Club.
• 0:39
  Hey guys, Dune here, your host and hype girl. Today we're learning from Charlotte, the founder behind one of the coolest bootstrapped companies around right now, Everyday Humans. We're talking about how she approaches money and the old school tips to funding a CPG brand, why retailers like Alta and Sephora came knocking on her door, and the pros and cons to creating a truly sustainable brand.
• 1:06
  Everyday Humans makes next generation sunscreens that are comfortable, conscious and designed for all. And if you're building a CPG brand and want to learn from women like Charlotte, come join us in the Hype Club where you can access our take on modern mentorship, live workshops and masterclasses. Let's get into this episode. This is Charlotte for Female Startup Club.
• 1:31
  Charlotte, hi, hello, welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast. Hi, thank you so much for inviting me to join you. I'm really excited to get to know you and to talk to you all about what we do. Me too. Where are you, by the way? I am actually, it's 11, no wait, it's 10pm and I am in Hong Kong. What? Oh my gosh, is that my fault? No, I mean, I work US hours anyway, so I sleep super late, so it's no big deal.
• 1:59
  Oh, wow. Goodness. Goodness me. I'm in bed by that time. Oh my gosh. First things first, do you want to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your business? Sure. Like, so I'm Charlotte. I'm the founder of planet friendly sunscreen brand, Everyday Humans. So we make planet friendly sunscreen that is comfortable and it has added skincare benefits that actually, you know, cater to your everyday routine. So, I mean, I can tell you a little bit about how I started the brand. So, yeah.
• 2:29
  I'm an elderly millennial, so I'm in my late 30s. So, you know, aging is human and, you know, we make lifestyle mistakes, but...
• 2:37
  I was part of the noctis era where I tanned a lot. So you know how like 20 years ago was really cool to tan. Me too. And like now, you know, nowadays, like, you know, the sunscreen sort of like conversations are prevalent that you're like, whoa, why didn't anybody told me when I was 16 that when I was tanning every day with SPF4, with oils and stuff that, you know, this is the number one thing that you should avoid is actually the sun. It's not smoking, it's not sleeping poorly, it's not bad eating habits. It's actually the sun that actually ages you.
• 3:05
  So, you know, like I was like, okay, well, if that's the most vital weapon up against wrinkles, why aren't there more cool sunscreen brands that actually encourage young people to buy? So I started, I was like, I nerded out. I was like, okay, let me just do some research. So I was just walking down the supermarket aisles and like noticing that, you know, like unlike, you know, small skincare and cosmetic brands out there, you know, sunscreen is actually really dominated by a few players.
• 3:27
  So, and what all of these players really do, especially in the supermarket aisles is that, you know, they're always marketed to seasonal or occasional users. So you're talking about people who like do sports, like you're like, I'm going to go running because I need a sunscreen. I go surfing. I'm going to get a sunscreen or like I'm a beach goer, then I'm going to use a sunscreen. So I was like, if you looked at it, I was like, wait, why isn't there really a sunscreen brand that's specifically designed?
• 3:51
  to make building a habit of wearing sunscreen a no-brainer. And I really couldn't find a brand that has an ethos that you're like, okay, I want it to be everyday. So you want it to not just be like a sports brand or whatever it is, or like a beach-going brand, or rather like an everyday skincare brand.
• 4:08
  And I guess that's why, you know, I started Everyday Humans. So, you know, the clues are the names. So we're a brand for everyday humans so that you can wear sunscreen every day. Oh, my gosh. I love that. So that's sort of like the origin story. That's amazing. Did you always want to be an entrepreneur? Yeah, I guess. How did you know that you wanted to start a business?
• 4:28
  I mean, I used to be in finance and then I was in tech. I'm a single founder. So like this is actually my first startup on my own. And I used to be in things that is not tangible. So I just wanted to actually make something that I can talk to and tell people about. And it's not hard to explain to somebody. I love skincare. So it's just like something that I'm really passionate about. And while I nerded out in the category and I found this beautiful white space where it's like, whoa, why isn't anybody tackling this particular space identified and like,
• 4:58
  I used to live in Singapore where literally it's sunny every single day, like it's summer every day, 365 days, you know. So that's how I was like, OK, well, obviously this is a no brainer. Like I should, you know, make something that I personally use every day because I need it.
• 5:13
  A hundred percent. Yeah, I love that. Found a fit, I think, is what they commonly refer to it as. Yeah. I want to go back to the very beginning, kind of, I think I read that you were working on it in development from around 2018. To find out what those kind of early years were like and what you were doing and how long the development process kind of took, manufacturing and all that kind of stuff.
• 5:36
  Oh, it's long because I guess I got into industry being very naive, thinking that you can just bust out a product within six to eight months. No, not in sunscreen. So I think sunscreen is technically a more difficult formula. And for me, I have a wish list of things that I want. It's like, OK, if I want to make sunscreen an everyday thing, number one thing you need to tackle is actually texture.
• 5:57
  So if the product, so, you know, generally sunscreens are really goopy and it's really thick. So hence you don't want to wear it every day. So if I'm able to solve the comfort thing and make it actually feel like skincare, so you, when you're incorporated into routine, it doesn't feel like a chore. It doesn't feel like your mom sort of like telling you, it's like, oh my God, you have to wear sunscreen. I'm not going to die of cancer. And you don't want that sort of like fear mongering situation. So what I wanted to do, the number one thing is to tackle texture.
• 6:23
  And the second thing that I want to tackle is white costs. So, you know, like as an Asian founder, like, you know, we're obviously our skin tone is a bit different. So but I live in like Southeast Asia and I live in the U.S. as well. And I know that, you know, like skin tone color is actually a major issue when it comes to selecting sunscreen. So some, you know, get white costs. Some people with dark skin to actually get a purple cost. So, you know, we wanted to be able to tackle that, you know, head on and like figuring that portion out was really difficult.
• 6:52
  you know, like in order for you to, and then add it to that, we wanted to have, you know, skincare benefits for our products. So, yeah. So, you know, the first thing I really want to tackle is the formula. So I think the biggest complaint with sunscreen is actually about comfort. So if the sunscreen is not comfortable to wear, you wouldn't want to actually incorporate into your daily routine. So this is the number one thing I want to tackle. The second thing is white cast. So, you know, most sunscreen have like a goopy feeling or like leaves this horrible sheen.
• 7:21
  So, you know, for darker skin tones, it actually reflects purple or you have a grayish tinge. So we want to make sure that it's really serum light and it's actually invisible so that you would want to wear it and you can actually incorporate it into your makeup routine as well. So the third thing we wanted to tackle is that, well, I think nowadays, like if you want to have everybody's so super busy, right? You really want to be able to have a multitasking sunscreen that actually does more than just protection. So we also wanted to add skincare benefits. So, you know, like antioxidants.
• 7:50
  hydration and anti-pollution that targets skin concerns for young people. So that's why I wanted to, like, when I had all these wish lists and I went to my manufacturer, they're like, oh, my God, like, it's one of those people. You're one of those. Yeah, I'm one of those who just wants everything. So it took a long time. So, you know, I started off with, like, you know, asking around, but that didn't go very far. So then I started visiting trade shows. So I just, like, went to the bigger ones. And the biggest one in Asia is Cosmoprof Asia.
• 8:19
  So looking at co-packers out there and just like, you know, you know, like cold emailing people and just like finding. And at the beginning, like, you know, I had like literally a website and like my name and I was just like asking all these huge manufacturers to work with me and of course I get rejection. It's like I write these big proposals and, you know, I just keep, you know, radio silence the whole time. So I just keep knocking on doors. I was just persevered. And then one person or one manufacturer finally answered and it was in Australia.
• 8:47
  And I was like, oh my gosh, thank you. So they saw my wishlist and they're like, oh my gosh. So we just went through the process and it just took a long time. It took like almost 18 months just to get the first formula. I guess from the ideation, you've got this wishlist of things and you started understanding the limitations of what I want to be able to get and to achieve. And you start iterating. And so you've got samples after samples. And then now from the texture, you've got the white cards, you've got the skincare benefits, but then
• 9:16
  Maybe it's the actual packaging that has an issue. Maybe like it actually, you have a reaction or sensitivity issue or that, you know, you know, there's just, and then maybe the fragrance is really bad. You know, there's just so many things that you don't know when you just started off and you just think about all these like wish lists, but there's so many nuances on formulating that you only know when you get yourself deep into the formulation sort of situation. And then the process, like when you first start, when you write a brief, you don't really know. And then,
• 9:44
  you start to learn more about the limitations and learn more about the jargon and the lingo. And then you just build more and more. And from there, each time that you make a change, it's another three weeks. So after three weeks, after three weeks, after three weeks. And then it becomes 18 months. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I guess at the beginning, I was alone doing this. So I did the formulation with some assistance, but it was predominantly myself. So just learning the trade so quickly, it was really difficult.
• 10:11
  But, you know, I went through the process and, you know, I overcame and finally got the formula that I won. And I was like, yeah, anyway, go to my game. I mean, the product is really good. I just tried it this morning and I thought it was so amazing in terms of
• 10:25
  The texture definitely feels more like a serum once it's rubbed into the skin. And also the smell. I really quite enjoy it. I'm so glad. Like we actually tried. I think you've done such a good job. Behind me, there's like a box of fragrance. We tried, I think, I think we picked like, I don't know, like 25 fragrances because we want national fragrance. So that's really, so generally most brands, like they would use synthetic fragrance, but I'm like a non-toxic brand. So what we really wanted to do is to find a Cosmo certified fragrance.
• 10:51
  natural fragrance don't really work well with like a very chemical, like a sunscreen has a very distinct scent. So to be able to mask that fragrance and have the original fragrance to come through is really hard. So generally synthetic fragrance is easily covered, but with natural, like it's just like, it reacts, it changes. So it's just like, oh my gosh, like just the fragrance took a thousand years and I'm like,
• 11:13
  But for me, it's like I want every single aspect of it to be like well thought perfect. And I just don't want to put a coconut fragrance in it and just like blanket it. I want it to be something that's a bit more enjoyable and not like I think a lot of sense reminds you of the beach. Like I want my sunscreen to not remind you of the beach so that you actually would wear it every day. I love that. That's so clever because it took 18 months and.
• 11:35
  also from what you've told me, you know, sunscreen is more difficult to develop. It's just a different process. And then with things like testing and that kind of thing. A hundred percent. Yes. Did you have to have a bigger budget to get started? And how were you funding in the beginning in that pre kind of launch phase? Yeah, I guess like in skincare, I think your MOQs would be like, you can even run it at like a thousand units or something like that for us. It's like,
• 12:02
  you start in 10,000, you know, like, so you kind of need to be super committed and like know what you're doing and be really sure before you push the button. And, you know, because I'm working with suppliers that traditionally don't work with small brands. So it was like even more difficult. So when I commit my first order, like with my PO, I was like, I want to make sure that my product sales. So I really wanted to nail wholesale first. So one of the things I did is,
• 12:27
  reselling, I guess, in a way. So I wanted to make sure that I actually have customers before I even push production. So I pitched retail quite early on with just sort of sample formulas in the deck. And like pitching wholesale accounts is another journey in itself. And it was very cool to be able to secure, you know, a wholesale account prior to launch. So that's why I was simultaneously launching with Ulta. So like my first retail is Ulta.com. So it was really
• 12:56
  really fortunate that, you know, they are like the biggest retailer in the sort of the musty. I love that you're like, you're getting older as your launch partner yet just on a sample on a deck that speaks volumes about the product. I mean, it's, I was shocked myself as well. So, I mean, I think it really helps that, you know, I went to the Target Accelerator program. So I was a graduate of it in 2019. So I was one of 10 founders
• 13:23
  to go through the Accelerator Minneapolis, where it's like a five-week program. So it was funny because I was like,
• 13:29
  one of 10 founders. I was the only Asian. I was the only non-American, I believe, in the program. So I was just like random person. And I was only like, my brand was like six months old. So I was like, hi guys. You know, like people are like super like, and I learned so much in that process. I'm learning how to pitch to big, big box retailers. I think that process really helped me and guide me through, you know, how to work with, you know, be an omni-channel brand. And I think that
• 13:56
  I benefited so much just to understand nuances of working with big retail. Like what? So many nuances. Like it's a machine. Like they're a Fortune 10 company, Fortune 20, Fortune 50 company, right? So, you know, like opening an order from like a mom pop shop and opening an order with equivalent of an altar, like just on the supply chain side to be able to accommodate with all the boring stuff. You know, they have systems specifically required to plug into their systems.
• 14:23
  You know, like, so just like small nuances that, you know, I always say that, you know, as a founder, my job is to fill out forms. I just fill out so many forms and like signing documents just to be able to get like all these ERP systems sorted out. So it's just like it's a journey in itself. And, you know, you need to pre-plan quite early. So I was mentioning that I pitched Alta, you know, prior to launch. I pitched them like six to nine months before launch.
• 14:47
  and just to get a feel on how we are. And so it was a long process. And it's not like, I think a lot of people underestimate how you get into wholesale accounts. You can't be like launch a brand and next month you get into retail. It doesn't work that way. They plan so far ahead, like six, eight, nine, 12 months ahead that you need to stay ahead of your game quite early on.
• 15:08
  And so getting that account with Ulta, which is obviously amazing, what kind of order do they place in the beginning? And is that kind of like, hey, here's my 10,000 that I need to launch. And then, you know, you're negotiating payment terms with them on the side to be able to like cash in or something like how are you? No, there's no payment. No, it doesn't work that way with them. So you can't like they always pay post delivery. I believe it's net 45 days.
• 15:33
  So what I've been trying to do is do PO financing, meaning when I receive the purchasing order and I borrow on top of it to be able to pay for my... Who do you use to do that? It can be just like commercial banks. Like I know in the UK, there's like Wayflyer and Clear Bank and things like that. I see them promoting heavily for those kind of things. Yeah, it's similar to that. So in Asia, actually commercial banks do that as well. Like it's just doing the old school way, just like working with like HSBC. Actually, I don't know.
• 15:59
  Like, I mean, don't, I think it's interesting that people forget that, you know, 20, 30 years ago, that's how people start businesses, you know, collaterals, mortgages, you know, like the old school ways. I did it the old school way, I guess, like borrow money with collateral, you know, borrow money off a PO and start and just do it the old school way. And because even though I raise a friends and family around, I don't want all of the money to be tied up in inventory. I want obviously to build the team, do marketing and so on and so forth and grow the brand rather than like.
• 16:28
  you know, use all of my proceeds for inventory. So I was very, you know, fortunate to have POs to be able to do that. Yeah, that's amazing. And I love kind of that stripping it back and just being like, hey, let's go back to the old school and figure out how to do this without having to think about, you know, the trend at the moment feel, or not the trend, but the landscape at the moment feels very much like, you know, e-commerce founders that are scaling into retail, go out, raise institutional funding, scale like crazy. And that's like kind of the
• 16:58
  pathway, I guess, but you've taken this approach of being like, no, I'm going to figure it out and figure it out and figure it out until I really need to take on any VC dollars. Yeah. I mean, there actually are a lot of pathways to money. It doesn't have to be a one set way. And I think the media obviously shine the light upon Insto invested companies a lot more than us indie startups, I suppose, or sort of bootstrapping startups.
• 17:24
  And you just don't know those stories. And that's why you have people like you to talk to people who don't do the traditional path and say, hey, actually, there is a way to do it without insto money at the beginning. Like there are alternative ways to do it. You know, I mean, I've heard founders like, you know, they max out the credit cards, they borrow money from the family. You know, like I do it that way, you know, and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way as well. It's like it's not not as glamorous, just a different way.
• 17:47
  Yeah, absolutely. I was talking about this with someone yesterday, actually. I was on someone else's podcast and we were talking about the media and this kind of culture around lifting up the people who are raising loads of capital. And that's on the front pages of Forbes and Tech Crunch and all this kind of thing. And
• 18:05
  That's all well and good. But I was like, why don't people highlight the bootstrappers who are building these amazingly wildly successful businesses? But they have just taken a path that to me, it's kind of like, hey, I don't know. Like, obviously, there's pros and cons to both, but like pretty amazing to bootstrap and especially to get to the point that you are like a year in and you're in all these incredible retailers. You're obviously doing a really good job. It's interesting. Yeah.
• 18:31
  I don't get it. I don't get it either. I mean, I wish there were more people who just do the traditional, like I guess the old school way. So then I have more friends to talk to on how they do it. Alternatively, I mean, debt financing or like PO finance, I mean, they exist. Like there's now startups that do specifically that, knowing that there's this limitation on, you know, institutional rounds or VC funded rounds. But, you know, there are alternative ways to access capital if you look
• 18:57
  So if you look, yeah. And if you get someone that points you in the right direction. Yeah, exactly. So if you look. So I want to talk about your launch. Obviously, you launched in collaboration with Ulta. You said, I imagine you were also ticking off some extra partners along the way there in the lead up to getting the brand out there. But what were you doing in the lead up to launch to get ready and market and build your customer base? And kind of if you could talk a little bit about that time and how the launch went. Yeah.
• 19:25
  Oh gosh. I mean, I launched at this craziest time, which is the last week of May, 2020, in the middle of the pandemic and a week after Black Lives Matter. So I have to work extra hard because, you know, I had all these plans. First, I need to shoot my campaign. We couldn't shoot at the moment because everything, you cast the outdoors. I wanted to launch in New York and LA with offline experiences and in-person activations. That got canned. So I had no choice,
• 19:55
  because I already signed on a retail partner. So I was like, okay, I got to focus on building a strong and like a hyper local community online. And basically what I did was like, instead of like doing these offline things and do press junkets and all that stuff, like we did everything virtual. I mean, this is nowadays, like completely normal, like what we're doing right now, but a year ago, it's like completely unheard of like to do all this stuff. So we just started off with like, you know, like good old influencer marketing. Right. So it's just like send,
• 20:22
  boxes out and just like scrolling on Instagram, finding all the leads, like, you know, marketing, like finding like micro communities amongst the people that I want to activate and like talking to press so and so forth. And that's sort of like where we started. And it was just, I guess it was like timing as well was an interesting time to be alive at that point where, you know, actually not a lot of people were going outdoors, which is interesting as well at the same time.
• 20:46
  And even, you know, the big players are figuring out how to be able to build communities and activate online. So we just like, sort of like nerded out and like, you know, from community, then we do reviews from reviews that we need to scale, you know, like affiliate programs, like so and so forth and just like learning as we go. But, you know, like we were just super fortunate to get a lot of doors knocking at us, you know, so like, so afterwards we signed Sephora impact. So we're in seven countries for exclusive for Sephora.
• 21:13
  We're now at Target.com as well. And then we're at Urban Outfitters, Free People, Revolve. So in the UK, we're at Beauty Bay and Naturissimo. We're also speaking to a couple of more EU and UK players as well. So it's been really interesting because I don't really pitch. And they just find us on Instagram, actually. It's amazing. And we get DMs because I was doing my own DMs. I was doing my own social and I realized Instagram is...
• 21:42
  in the end of the day, is actually a really powerful tool to market your brand. And, you know, buyers are there, you know, customers are there. So that's why we spend quite a bit of energy, you know, building out our community on social. Do you think all these retailers that have come to you, and this is probably like a really stupid question, but just to be clear,
• 22:00
  Do you think for you it's strictly a combination of your incredible design and like the feel and vibe of the brand and what the actual product itself is? Or is there something else at play that these brands are coming to you for? I guess it's just I was mentioning that, you know, sunscreen is traditionally, you know, dominated by a few players like the big guys. Right. So there are not a lot of indie options, to be honest. And I think and especially if it's an indie option, it will also be a very large brand.
• 22:29
  No, actually, there's no. So I think what's interesting that I've been here, I mean, I don't say it myself. Like it's the retailers who tell me, oh, well, we find that your branding is quite inclusive. So meaning, you know, it really has a unisex sort of like vibe to it. So I mean, when I build the brand, I want it to not look like any other skincare brand and especially not to look like another SPF brand. So as an example, we take a deliberate thing to avoid using the icon of the sun as an example.
• 22:58
  And actually avoid using the color yellow altogether. So we do only have a very small patch. So our packs are all in different colors and there's only a very small tint of yellow. So there's all these branding considerations that are actually inspired by streetwear and urban fashion that I think that makes the branding a bit more like
• 23:17
  I guess inclusive or unisex. So what I want is that even your boyfriend or your husband would be like, Oh, what, what is this? I like, yeah, it's called resting beach race. I don't mind buying, I don't mind using it. I want the idea that, Hey, even, you know, straight dude would be like, sure. Why not? You know, which like, it's funny because afterwards, like when we launched around, you know, we have, you know, quite a few people who are texting or like DMing us. Hey, you know,
• 23:42
  I'm so surprised even my husband wears this, you know, or like even now my, you know, even my really like boyfriend, a boyfriend who just only wears, you know, washes his body and his face and everywhere else with one soap uses your sunscreen. So it's like really nice to know that, you know, our brand is not, is actually genuinely, you know, speaks to a very diverse range and the age range also is quite diverse. Our target demographic is like, I call them a zillennial. So it's like a 25 to 35, but it's also can skew all the way down to like a 16 year old.
• 24:11
  And all the way up to like a 55 year old. So I was like surprised that, you know, the branding or the language it speaks actually can be as diverse as that. So maybe that's one thing. And I guess the second thing would be, I'm a big sustainability nerd. So I think it really is, comes from my family background. So my father's involved in Google packaging. So, and, you know, I just naturally am inclined to be super sustainable and stuff. So, and, you know, young people nowadays are really concerned, you know, about the environment and, you know, and you're increasingly conscious about how you spend your money.
• 24:41
  And so, you know, when I start the brand, I was like, I've got to, I got to do this right. Like, I just need to make sure that, you know, every single aspect is, you know, considered. And I think retailers really like that and it's really hard to do. So, I mean, as an example, you know, like we are, you know, I started the brand knowing that this is going to happen. So there's three things we did, like after year one, like we did a LCA. So which is a life cycle assessment. So what it does is that it's a technique for you to be able to assess the potential environmental impact of the business.
• 25:09
  So it's kind of like a cradle to grave analysis. So you would go through, nerd out on the production systems so that we have a really comprehensive valuation on both our upstream and downstream energy so that we know and calculate our emissions. So because I was like, if you don't know how much you're emitting, how do you know how to offset it or like how to do better? So one of the first things we did is like, first, we need to know where we start and then we develop a plan to reduce. So we are actually one of the first plastic neutral certified sunscreen. So what it means is that
• 25:38
  What we aim to do is to eliminate as much plastic waste as we use from nature. So, I mean, just as a get-go, like all of our tubes are made out of post-consumer speckle plastic. Our boards are FFC certified paper boards. We use soy ink. Even our laminate is biodegradable. So we really make sure that really you can actually, that there is a chance for it to be part of the circular economy. And we also take an even bigger step and say that, okay, well, besides that, we also want to give back by...
• 26:06
  being plastic neutral where you know we fund on the setup of you know micro enterprises in remote communities that are struggling with plastic plastic waste pandemics so what we do is that we help them you know to you know uh to to be able to eliminate plastic by offsetting our own plastic footprint and hence we are plastic neutral right so that's plastic because i think the number one thing about environmental like you can be climate neutral we're doing as well so we're
• 26:33
  What we do is that after we know where we are, we purchase carbon credits to remove them from the environment. And at the same time,
• 26:39
  To be neutral, what we do is, like, you know, for one carbon credit, we avoid, like, one ton of carbon emissions. Sorry, I'm, like, nerding out on this. I love this, though. I've never, like, talked about this in such detail. It's so interesting. Please continue. Yeah, I'm, like, really, I'm, like, when you get me into, you know, all this classic stuff, I, like, get really nerdy about it. So I do apologize. No, it's amazing. It just, like, means a lot to me. And I realized when I'm doing it, I was like, oh, maybe I'm the only person who's, like, super excited about it.
• 27:08
  because it's just how I am. I realized a lot of people care about this stuff as well, and especially retailers, because they're like, hey, we want a sustainable brand as well. And it's hard to find because not everybody can actually nerd out on their supply chain to that extent to be able to get it out there. And unless you've built a brand from the get-go, that you started off like that. So a lot of people are changing towards it, but because I started like that, so naturally, it was easy for me to be like, okay, well, we're already plastic, Nutri-certified products.
• 27:35
  we're already climate neutral certified and, you know, like we're moving towards goals and like using upcycle ingredients, so on and so forth. So that's like nice, like when retailers hear me nerd out about it and they're like, oh, I'm so excited too, you know? It's like truly built into the DNA of your brand versus someone who's just slapped on the sustainability message when you're like, I'm not so sure if you're sustainable. Well, I mean, like it's hard, right? Because in the end of the day, we're making products. So how, like in the end of the day, we're putting out something
• 28:04
  like into the universe, right? And it's an extra thing. So now it's like, how can you make conscious decisions? So even though I'm making it, we're still making stuff, right? So how do you make stuff more consciously? And you need to dig quite deep and you need to be really nitty gritty about your supply chain to be able to actually make that pledge real.
• 28:22
  And when you're doing that kind of thing, what's the downside for you as a brand owner and thinking about like the business side of it? Like does switching to these kind of consumer recycled plastics and the board that you spoke about, does that affect your unit costs when you're making those decisions? Of course, like 100%. Yeah, it's always more expensive and it's always harder and there's always more limitations.
• 28:47
  I mean, I can note out on packaging. As an example, so PCR, post-consumer recycled plastic, it comes with percentages. So you can have like 10%, 30%, 70%. But actually when it's 100% PCR, because it's obviously recycled plastic, so it's not clear. So it's not white or like crystal clear. So when you add a color to it, it actually makes it dirtier. So like, as an example, like we were trying to like make this green, like our RBF screen color, right? Like we actually had to change the Pantone quite a few times to adjust to the added,
• 29:17
  grayness of the original virgin color. So it's just like really nuances like that. And I'm like, Oh my God. And then like, I'm like noted. I was like, I want the freaking pump to be recyclable too. But yeah, actually, you know, there's like single component pump. I mean, I can talk about it all day long, but you know, like I want the cap to be recycled. So it's like all of these nuances, I was like, oh, and the supply, but I know this one is like a, it has a spring in it. So you have to take it apart to be, make it recyclable. This is actually, this can only be a certain plastic so on and so forth. Like this cannot be PCR.
• 29:46
  Or like it can only be Virgin PUT because of the hardness, it needs to be AS, whatever, you know. So there's just like, it's like a struggle every day just to be able to get to what I want to achieve. And it's just now supply chain is getting smarter that, hey, everybody wants this stuff. But it's still hard to find. It's still more expensive to go through the process because everybody's still in R&D. And there's a lot of demand, but not a lot of people actually get to the point where it's like perfect, right? So it's like constantly knowing the trend.
• 30:12
  constantly knowing the technology that's involved and constantly nerding out on materials is like a big thing for me, right? Yeah.
• 30:19
  Wow. It sounds like, I mean, it's a sounds amazing that you're doing that and taking that challenge like head on, but yeah, it just sounds like you've really got to commit to it because of course it's just adding a million more challenges on top of everything else that you're doing. But I love that. I admire that so much and I can understand why it's important for retailers and why that makes you highly attractive as a brand in addition to being a great product and having, you know,
• 30:44
  amazing design. It makes a lot of sense. That's really cool. Thank you so much for sharing. I didn't know a bunch of that stuff. You've just blown my mind, which I love. That's cool. I want to switch back to kind of like what your marketing efforts are at the moment and what's kind of critical for you to allocate budget towards. And what I mean by that is more like what's really working for you now that you're kind of like doubling down on because...
• 31:10
  right time, right place kind of stuff? Yeah, I guess like because we're scrappy and we don't have like a huge ammo to do, you know, paid marketing. So a lot of things build out a community. So word of mouth is really important and we really double down on micro communities. So what we really do is to actually identify certain niches, certain categories that we believe are a natural fit to our product. So like it's a lot of trial and error because they naturally be like, oh, obviously beachgoers, right? So but then beachgoers,
• 31:37
  They might just want like a tatting oil instead. So and then you're like, OK, maybe people in California and you're like, OK, there are like people who are into sustainability. Oh, no, actually, they really prefer something more premium or like they want something like completely mineral, whatever. So we just had to iterate and like identify micro communities through social media. And then we finally found like our guys, our people. Who are your people?
• 32:00
  that's the secret sauce right oh okay okay okay so we have a couple of people like a couple of TAs right and we're like okay like these are the TAs we're gonna double down on and we didn't realize what's a TA a target audience like sorry a target audience so we're like oh so after like iterating and changing and just keep trying and then finally something stick and you're like oh my god like this is it you know now we need to double down on that and like spend money and resources in it so
• 32:24
  one of the things that we noticed is that TikTok is a really, like, an interesting place to play. So Instagram now, I think it's been pretty difficult to win on the paid side. So you do iOS 14 changes, and you know, the targeting is a lot harder to do. And the way that you run ads is completely different nowadays. So, you know, so we need to like, move our budget and allocate it elsewhere. So what we find is that, you know, TikTok,
• 32:50
  because it's so new and it's, you know, the ad platform is just like a couple of, I think it's like eight months old or something like that. And people are, even the program itself is still learning. So what we wanted to do is just to try more out there and see how it goes. But, you know, like we've seen natural successes there because our brand itself is really conducive for TikTok. It's like a, it's just like one of those packaging or branding and name of it that works well for that environment. And it's like quite funny or,
• 33:17
  you know, and it's like the color pops and like the kind of people who likes our branding is people who would live in TikTok. So we found that a natural fit. So that's where we are spending our marketing dollars at the moment. Yeah, amazing. I assumed that that would be the case. It screams TikTok to me. Okay. I just want to dig a little deeper, though, when you're talking about
• 33:37
  finding those micro communities and those target audiences, what do you actually mean? Like, how do you find them and what are you going, like, what's the tactical, like step-by-step are you like finding a Facebook group of sun goers and then being like, Hey, do you want to try my product or like at scale? What does that look like?
• 33:56
  So at the beginning, it's just more like, through word of mouth, you sort of like see a natural sort of like, if you put it on a graph, like all of your purchases and all of the demographic information, you'll kind of see where the clusters are. So the minimum that you have at least is cities, right? So you're like, okay, so I see that, you know, for us, our heat map is actually California, if this makes sense. So you're like, okay, within California. And then, but because of the pandemic, now everybody's staying home. So they're all over the place as well. So you're like trying to figure out like,
• 34:25
  what they wear, these micro communities, how they find out and wear these word of mouth. So once we identify the community and then some of them are maybe, you know, creators. So we actually, you know, go into, you know, conversations with them. So what we do is that when we do influencer marketing, we also add a survey and just to understand like, you know, why, like, you know, what, Hey, what's your skincare routine? How do you incorporate it? Like, what do you see? You know, like, what are your interests? You know, like some basic information.
• 34:51
  But actually from those seemingly boring questions that you actually learn quite a lot about the people that we identify and that you'll start to see trends or start to see commonalities within the people. And then from those data, you're like, okay, then you sort of like make your call. You're like, okay, I want to try these three experiments. And then what I do is identify the communities. Let's say it's a sport. Let's say we're really into, let's say surfers, right? And we're like, okay.
• 35:15
  let's find surfers in LA or like in all the surf cities and then like identify the surf clubs in there and like see the people and like try to like maybe get into retail with these people and see how they react. And then from there, and then you're like, okay, like then if you see sort of like a, you will see the sales coming through, like, and then you'll see, because where of the jurisdiction or like the city that they live in and you're like, okay, well, if that's working or like, or maybe you see the community and you're like, you don't see that sort of like
• 35:42
  you know, like expanding effect and you're like, okay, maybe that's like the wrong call or like it's the wrong target audience. So you just, it's like this iterative process of like finding, you know, your first 100 people that really like you in the same community. Because if you have like 100 people from like 17 different communities, that is not a cluster. So what you want to do is to identify a cluster and then double down on it.
• 36:04
  Oh, I love that. That's amazing. You know what else came up for me when you were just describing this? You know, you're focusing on California as an example, or maybe, you know, you have a pocket of people in Australia, whatever. Yeah.
• 36:16
  And you're someone who's based now in Hong Kong, I think you said, and previously in Singapore. What's it like trying to build a brand that's kind of focused on a different region to where you live? And I'm asking because I'm based in London, but when we launched the non-alc brand, our focus is completely on the US. Obviously it will be London because we're here too, but completely in the US. And I'm wondering, and I have been wondering what that is like and how do you manage that? Extra difficult, that's what it is. I mean, like, I guess like,
• 36:46
  American culture, I went to school in the US, so I guess it helps a little bit. But what I find is that actually during the pandemic, I've been really active or proactive in reaching out to founders in the US and just speaking to them, not particularly in my category, but just anybody who is hustling, basically.
• 37:04
  And just getting to know the nuances of like American life, you know, I think it sounds really ridiculous because like, what do you mean by American life? I mean, there's like, as an example, like I'm from Asia, so I don't use Amazon as an example, only until I went to Minneapolis for the target. Dude, like we spent,
• 37:20
  You know, I think I have 250 orders a year. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I don't even, I've never used Amazon before. Like, something so stupid like that, that because I live in a place where it doesn't exist. Oh, yeah, that blows my mind. Yeah, so you're like, I didn't even know you transact that much on Amazon. It's like, okay, well, then we opened up Amazon because of that, not knowing...
• 37:39
  you know living in asia not knowing that so it's like you know visiting being aware and having you know cool people to talk to just to know the nuances of the cultures as an example california right so i was like okay i know nothing i've never lived there i've only visited a few times like no freaking idea so we hire people and out of actually from california and be like okay what was your everyday oh hey you know this is a cool cafe this is where the surfers hang out you know like whatever you're so so you kind of like you need a local like you definitely need a local guide
• 38:06
  to be able and like doing it remotely is near impossible because you know, the successes that you see in the U S is because they are hyperlocal and they are from that place. And that's why they're able to find the cluster much faster because they're actually there. So, I mean, for you, like it's the same thing, right? You're not obviously your natural first cluster would be in the UK.
• 38:24
  just because you are personally there and your hands would have mouths spread a lot faster. So to be able to do that and replicate that remotely is really, really, really hard. Yeah, I can foresee the challenge. But we have like a huge following in Melbourne. Like it's super random, but like, I don't know why Melbourne, because obviously it's just not really
• 38:41
  It's not like a surf place. Yeah. But, you know, maybe we're like a city girl sunscreen, a city person sunscreen. So that's sort of what we've identified. Like, hey, we're like a city person sunscreen rather than an outdoor sports sunscreen. We're a casual sports sunscreen, not a hardcore sports sunscreen brand. So we realized, OK, well, surfers is actually not our thing because there's like there's a lot of people who are already doing beachgoing sunscreen. We're like, oh, actually, we're the opposite. We're people who rarely go to the beach who actually use us.
• 39:07
  Yeah, gosh, that is so interesting and so much food for thought there when it comes to that whole like building a business remote and the challenge that's going to come with that. What is happening in the business today? Like what's your team look like? You know, what exciting partnerships can you shout about? What new innovation do you want to plug in?
• 39:30
  plug okay well i mean i'm just really excited about our existing retailers like you know ulta is like you know our first and our number one and of course target because we're part of the accelerator and now we're online and hopefully later on down the line be able to go on shelves but it's just you know we're really focused on you know a couple of bigger retailers and like
• 39:50
  I would say go deep rather than go wide because we, when we, it's really hard to get into a door and you don't want to lose the door. So you want to be able to focus and give them like full attention span and make sure that you do the right things. Because like if it takes so long for you to get in, you don't want to get kicked out after 12 months. So we want to make sure that we service them and like have the assortment, have all the, you know, you know, the supply chain ready for them so that when they place a larger order, like we're there for them.
• 40:14
  So that's sort of like what we're doing. I mean, I guess like a lot of people think that we are a D2C brand, but we're actually, you know, like an omni-channel brand. Like we start omni-channel, which is, I think, quite different from a lot of skincare brands out there that start D2C first. So we started off with a wholesale account. So I guess the business operations are significantly different because it's a completely different operation altogether. If you do D2C, you need a growth marketer, you need paid ads people, you need like content people, so on and so forth. And wholesale, you need like a sales team.
• 40:45
  educators, like you need like on the ground staff, like it's very different the way that you operate. So it's almost like running two businesses. Yeah. Absolutely. How big is your team now? I'm curious. Six people. Yeah. Six people. Yeah. Are they all based where are they around or is it in Hong Kong? All around. So we have like New York, LA, Chicago, London, Singapore,
• 41:12
  Hong Kong and Sydney. Wait, no, sorry, not Sydney. Sydney's gone. Manila. Yeah, Manila for ops. What's the time that you guys hop on group calls? Oh, my God. So it's like this time. Actually, it's like 11 p.m. would be like... Is that the time that, like, everyone's able to join? The time that everybody kind of, like, so the one that's the worst off is always me. So...
• 41:35
  But yeah, it's always like I'm the worst off when 11, 12 midnight calls would be me. But yeah, I mean, I'm so used to it. No big deal. But no, you'd be surprised by... I mean, I think it touches upon something that you mentioned earlier about team. It is really hard to build a culture when you do it remotely. So I think it's much easier to build a company when you meet your co-workers face-to-face and you ideate together.
• 42:00
  You know, technology has advanced quite a lot the way you have Zoom calls and stuff, but I really believe that, you know, in the end of the day, like building a team that's close to you or at least have centers around like, you know, the places that you market to and then you have people around there, like really makes a difference. I see that. That makes a lot of sense. What is your top piece of advice for entrepreneurs? It's like, don't do it if you're not committed, you know, like...
• 42:26
  Like, cause like I'm super committed. Like, and the thing is like, you have a lot of bad days. Like, you know, entrepreneurship sounds really glamorous, but like 95% of the time it's pretty bad. Like you're just like firefighting and you're just like, oh my God, like problem solving. You're just like fixing things all the time. Right. And the glamorous side is very fleeting. Like winning an account. Yeah, it's great. But like, you're okay. Once you win an account, you're like, okay, now I'm going to supply that order. Yeah. Now the hustle kicks into that.
• 42:53
  Yeah, it's like, so you really better believe in what you're building, that what you do adds value and it makes sure that you're putting out something that it's conscious and so that you believe there's the purpose of, you know, creating a brand that there's something more than just like selling, you know, making money. And I think that success and the purpose of my brand will be validated by how well I do through that journey, right? So that's why I believe it's like, if you don't believe in it yourself and just in it
• 43:23
  If you only have some money. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Totally. You need to be creating something that you can be proud of to put into the world and look back and be like, yeah, that was awesome. Loved that for me and the world. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's why the Planet Friendly piece was so important to me and the inclusivity piece because I'm still selling sunscreen, to be honest. It's just sunscreen. But some of the things that I truly believe, very passionate about, I baked it into the brand. And that's what that.
• 43:52
  gets me out of bed. I'm actually trying really hard to be more sustainable. I'm trying really hard to be inclusive. I'm trying really hard to be conscious. Those moments really drives me and makes the team really excited. And you're not just making another paid ad, another email, and you're actually doing something more meaningful. And I think that's truly, the mission of the brand is really important. Totally. Absolutely.
• 44:20
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 44:44
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 45:07
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.
• 45:22
  Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
• 45:47
  And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
• 46:09
  As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.