Latest / The Diary of a CFO / The Role of Treasury in M&A and Business Strategy, with , AVP of Treasury at Victoria’s Secret & Co, Summa Simmons

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The Role of Treasury in M&A and Business Strategy, with , AVP of Treasury at Victoria’s Secret & Co, Summa Simmons · The Diary of a CFO

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Wassia Kamon: Welcome back to the Diary of a CFO Podcast, the podcast where finance leaders share
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the lessons, challenges, and wins that shape their careers as well as their organizations.
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I'm your host, Wassia Kaman, and today I'm super delighted to have with me
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Summa Simmons, AKA, the cash Queen.
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Summa Simmons is the Associate VP of Treasury at Victoria Secret, ENCO.
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Where she leads cash management, capital structure strategy, and banking relationship.
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She is a treasury executive with over 20 years of experience and is passionate about mentoring
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the next generation of finance leaders at places at Cardinal Health, JE or Morgan Stanley.
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She led treasury strategy, manage billions in cash, and funding and build systems that
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make finance work better behind the scenes.
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Welcome to the show, Suma.
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Thank you for having me.
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Summa Simmons: I've been fangirling you since I stumbled across your podcast.
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I think of you as my commute buddy on my in-office days because I listen to
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you in the car and sometimes I hang out in the parking lot to let you wrap up.
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Such a pleasure to be here with you now and looking forward to our conversation.
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Wassia Kamon: Same here.
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I love your energy.
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It just comes across in your posts on LinkedIn.
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I know we meant to have this conversation for months, so I'm so excited to dive in as well.
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So let's start with your incredible career journey.
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What led you to the treasury space?
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Sure.
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You will
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Summa Simmons: quickly learn that I have a story for everything, so hopefully you'll indulge me.
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A long time ago, I made a promise to myself that I will only be a volunteer
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to my career and never a hostage.
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I have a degree in accounting.
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I started my career staring at spreadsheets, chasing deadlines, planning my wedding around
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month end clothes, and oftentimes I didn't even get to take my birthday off, which is a big
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deal for me, and it still stings a little bit.
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After almost a decade of doing what I was supposed to do, a hallway conversation
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totally changed my whole career trajectory.
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I pivoted into treasury and suddenly I wasn't just reporting the past.
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I was helping shape the future.
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After stepping into some introductory roles, I now lead treasury for a
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luxury intimate apparel retailer.
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What does that mean?
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It means that I make sure that the money flows, the risks are covered, and the strategy
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stays tight while still occasionally wearing lip gloss to a budget meeting because you
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know you gotta wear your favorite lip gloss, especially when it's from the company I work for.
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So the real plot twist I would say is that none of this was part of the plan.
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I stopped trying to force.
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My career into this neat little box that I figured out somewhere in my twenties and I
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started making room for wild opportunities that didn't come with a job description.
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Because the best chapters of your story, they don't come with turn by turn directions.
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You just have to follow the detours.
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You just have to trust that you're still
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Wassia Kamon: on the road.
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Oh, very well said that you're still on track.
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On the on the road.
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So inspiring to hear that.
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And also by the time you end in treasury, I know treasury is not always like a
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function that's popular in finance.
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Right.
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So why do you think it's overlooked?
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Because it has so much impact.
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Like what do you think people need to understand about the role of treasury?
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I think it's overlooked because most
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Summa Simmons: people don't know what treasury is.
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They don't realize what treasury professionals do.
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We are somewhere between, or at least the perception, somewhere between accounts
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payable, accounting and fp and a.
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The danger is we can physically make a payment, right?
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So the first time you make a payment for someone, you just became accounts payable.
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We do dabble in strategy, so it feels a lot like financial planning and analysis.
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And we do spend a lot of time with our accountants because as we're thinking through transactions, we
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need to make sure that the accounting will work.
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So most folks just really don't understand where we are in the finance organization.
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They don't necessarily understand how it works, and what they underestimate
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is that it's such a niche discipline within finance and it's overlooked
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because no one learns treasury in school.
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We all went through managerial accounting, cost accounting,
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government accounting, fund accounting.
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Mm-hmm.
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We did all of that, but there wasn't this, how do you manage cash?
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There wasn't this treasury management idea.
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So most of my peers, everyone that I've kind of grown up with, we all stumbled into it.
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Most of us started out in finance, some of us not at all, and it was on the job training.
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So I think of it almost like the vocational discipline.
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In finance that most people have never heard of, and I'll make a shameless plug.
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If you're on a finance team, I challenge you on your next day in the office.
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Go and figure out who's in treasury and ask to spend some time with them, whether
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it's 30 minutes to shadow or half a day.
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Your world will be rocked by how cool their job is, all the different things that they see.
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Some things you may not be able to see because they may have signed an NDA regarding it,
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but it is this gem within the organization that really is the backbone of the company.
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I don't know.
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I'm gonna date myself and say back in the day.
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Chevrolet's mantra used to be.
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It's the Heartbeat of America.
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Today's Chevrolet Treasury is the heartbeat of your business.
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Like they are making sure that payroll is funded.
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Every week, every other week, how often that is, they're making sure that all
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of your rent and leases are up to date.
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They're making decisions around what you're acquiring, what you're divesting.
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They're making decisions about how much you're going to reinvest in your company, if
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you think of it from a capital expenditure perspective, and all in doing that, they're
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still managing physical cash in a bank account.
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And so there is this very tactical piece.
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Where you keep the lights on, and then there is an equally large strategic piece, like
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what does your capital structure look like?
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How much debt versus equity do you want your portfolio to be made up of?
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How do investors respond to that?
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Balancing your capital structure?
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They make sure you have access to liquidity or cash, whether or not you
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have banks that are lined up to lend you money, what that all looks like, so it's.
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Fascinating and I get excited when we talk about it.
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And full transparency, most companies, the people in the finance organization
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don't know what Treasury does.
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So we recently did a treasury 1 0 1 where we basically opened up our 10 K and we showed
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pages that people are very familiar with, and then we told them the story underneath it.
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What does this mean?
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How does this translate from an inside the building perspective when we talk about, you know,
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our big credit card, the big loan, what is that?
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How did we get there?
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And it was incredible how the light bulb came on for our colleagues, right?
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And we had so many inquiries about, well, what are you guys do in this situation and
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when are you gonna have your next job opening?
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And that's my favorite part, right?
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Yes.
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Like when people wanna come on the treasury team, I know that we've done something right.
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I challenge everyone to go and seek out your treasury team.
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They're probably hidden in a really tiny corner somewhere, and there may not
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be many of them, but I assure you they will not turn down the opportunity to
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explain what their day job looks like.
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Wassia Kamon: That's amazing.
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And I love how you said we did something one-on-one to bring people along.
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So now I'm curious, how was that transition for you moving from accounting to treasury?
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Because I'm sure your accounting background will help you.
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'cause like you said, treasury sits between accounting, FP, and ap.
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So what was that transition like for you?
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Were you excited when you saw treasury, where you like, Hmm, what is this?
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Summa Simmons: A little bit of both.
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Um, a little bit of all I will say, the conversation that I had with the leader
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that was inviting me into the role was epic.
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So we're standing literally in the pantry.
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I'm making tea, he's grabbing a coffee, and he says, Hey, I just moved
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up from controllership to treasury.
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I have a roll open.
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Um, would you consider it?
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I was like, I don't know anything about that.
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He was like, is budgeting, he's using all these words that I don't use in my
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vocabulary, like liquidity and forecasting.
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And I was like, I don't know what any of that means.
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I'm happy to read the job, I'm happy to talk about it.
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And he said, um, is there anything that would be a deal breaker for you?
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I said, if I don't like it, can I go back?
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To my old job.
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Mm-hmm.
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And he said to book journal entries.
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I said, yeah, that's the only condition I have if I come on board and I don't like it if we give it.
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90 days, and I am absolutely miserable because I don't know what liquidity
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means, and I literally have to look it up.
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And everything that you're describing is in the future, and everything that
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I'm accustomed to is in the past.
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So I don't have that nest egg to hold onto of, well, what did we do this time last year?
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What did we do this time last month?
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Everything that you're describing sounds like it hasn't happened yet, and as an accountant,
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I don't think in the future, I think in the past, it's all historical, as you well know.
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He said, okay, I promise if you absolutely don't like it, um, you can come back maybe
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the first day of work or so in this new role.
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He said, I want you to open up.
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And back then we weren't as app heavy because I'm 110 years old, but he said,
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open up your bank account website and I want you to look at your inflows and your
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outflows, and I want you to add six zeros to whatever you see in your bank account.
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And I want you, when you sit down to do our work.
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I want you to think about how you would manage the cash if it were
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yours, or practice in your own account.
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Just add six zeros to everything.
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And I was like, even the outflows, like I'd love to add six zeroes to the infos, and we could
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eventually work that through my compensation.
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He was like, Nope, add it all.
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And it really helped in terms of, as an accountant, you're trained to be a fiduciary.
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You're trained to be really responsible for the company's money, their assets, their liabilities.
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But when you manage cash.
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It makes a big difference because that is physically moving out of a bank account and
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so if you send too much, it's a problem.
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If you send too little, that's a problem as well.
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And I think the best thing that caught me up to speed in this role and got me excited was
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I am naturally curious and so in my day job.
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I get to comb through bank accounts and the company I was working for at the time had multiple
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business units and you got to figure out things like what Boeing pays for an engine for a plane.
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That's not just information that you would normally have.
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You get to see what Walmart and Home Depot pay for appliances, what are they paying for
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from a exchange of inventory perspective.
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And I don't know about anybody else, but there's something.
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That feels fortuitous about looking at something that it feels like you shouldn't be looking at.
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Like combing through somebody's garbage.
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You learn so much about them.
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I've never done it, but combing through someone's bank statement, you learn a
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lot about them and that's how I really started to learn cash management.
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I got a better feel for Forecasting isn't off the top of your head.
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It's usually based on trend analysis.
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And if you look at three months worth of activity, you can see when people tend to pay you.
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You obviously know when payments are happening because accounts payable tells
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you when they're happening, but if you wanna get an idea of like the entity
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that managed our credit card at the time.
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Mondays are heavy inflows because PE people spend money over the weekend on their credit
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cards, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and it settles on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
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And so just getting that feeling for the inflows and outflows of a bank account will really
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help you to understand how that business work.
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When's there slow time?
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When's there busy time from a cash perspective?
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And then you start to fill in the pieces.
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And so I think that that curiosity, um.
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Just kept me fed, and this is a very long way to get there, but I've not
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looked back at a journal entry since.
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And every now and then I'm still friends with this leader.
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It's been, gosh, 12 years since he hired me.
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And every now and then he'll text me and say, do you miss journal entries?
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And I'm like, no, no, no shape to anyone who's booking journal entries.
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They are relevant, they're important.
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I don't miss it.
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I really stepped out of the past and into the future.
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What was best about it is because I came from accounting and because I understood
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and remembered having to chase people for things, I always kept them in the loop.
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Hey, this transaction happened.
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Here's the support for it.
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We created a folder for you because when you're ready for it, in three
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weeks, we would've forgotten.
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So here it is.
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Nice and packaged up everything you need.
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So just being able to take that old experience with me and know what that felt like to chase.
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I just wanna be a great business partner and I wanna make sure that people know that I am
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being an advocate for them in their work and an ambassador for why that work is important
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as I want others to do it for treasury.
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So I think it's a win all around and everybody should go find their treasury
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people and spend time with them.
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Wassia Kamon: Oh, I love it.
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I love it.
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And I, I like how you said you're making life easy for accounting because you were there, right?
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And you are that strong business partner for them.
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But what would you say are some of the, the way Treasury is a business partner to other
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functions like ap, the C-F-O-F-P and A team and other people across the organization?
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Because it's everyone spending, what does it look like to be a business partner in treasury?
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Summa Simmons: I would, I love this question because when I meet someone
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who, for instance, I was getting a child.
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Tea at work the other day.
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So I stopped by our cafe and young lady who makes it like she knows exactly how I like it.
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We were talking about being particular before she knows exactly how I like it, and when I
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show up, I don't even have to say anything.
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I just say, I would like the, and she was like, how you always get it?
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Yes.
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And so in her making it, she was asking, remind me what team you work on again.
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And I said, I'm in finance, I'm in treasury.
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And she was like.
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I'm sorry.
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I don't know what that means.
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And I said what I said to you earlier, you know, I make sure that payroll hits every other week.
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I do all these things.
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And I said, I would argue that there's no one in our four walls that doesn't rely on treasury.
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It's impossible for a team not to engage with us directly or indirectly.
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Whether you are negotiating a contract or something that's going to happen
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in the future, you're going to need that money at some point in time.
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So treasury needs that forecast whether you are exploring the idea
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of taking on third party contractors.
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They too have to be paid.
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So procurement's gonna work with you on the contracts and treasury's gonna make sure
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that AP has the necessary funds to execute.
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And so when I think about all of our key stakeholders, everyone is a key stakeholder.
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Now, the way most finance teams are designed, the people who face the business have a finance
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partner that they engage with, and then we then interface with said finance partner.
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But I think in any environment, in any business, it's impossible to believe.
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Treasury is not touching.
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You're sitting in a chair at a table.
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Treasury has impacted that in some way, shape, or form, and it really, the direct
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tie in will typically be to accounts payable, making sure that that cash is available.
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So when people say things like, you know.
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I am going to call you if my paycheck is wrong.
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Don't call me for that.
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I don't, I'm not responsible for the payroll itself.
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I'm responsible for making sure the money's available to pay you, but I,
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I, I don't get involved in the actual payment file associated with that.
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So it's, think about it at its most base case.
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Treasury touches the entire organization, hence the reference to it being the back backbone.
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And I would also encourage people not in finance to challenge other folks.
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As you're thinking about your role and how you need others to be supportive of you,
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you've gotta think about what's important to them and you have to tie what you need
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from them to what's important to them.
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And you will always be a priority for them.
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As long as you seem like a net that they can chase away, they won't.
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Want to help or they won't respond to your emails.
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And I found with treasury, the payroll thing and getting paid every other week,
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people tend to remember me for that.
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But the bigger picture is as you're making decisions about your function,
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whether it is a plane that's gonna be on a runway because the engine is complete
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and it needs to be put into said plain, if there's a payment associated with that.
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I need you to call me before the plane's on the runway.
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Like I need to know about that so we can be ready for what happens next.
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And as long as there's something that is intrinsic to you that you care about where I
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am related, you will remember, oh, I need to call Summit and tell her about this thing.
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So it sounds a little, maybe a little selfish, but we are naturally selfish human beings.
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And if you want people to think about you in your day job, the way that you need them to show up.
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You have to figure out what's important to them so you become a priority for them and
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they're calling you versus you chasing them.
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I tease my friends in internal audit as well as my team, and I'll say our goal.
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Is not to be right above internal audit because everybody runs from them.
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I've yet to work for a company where you see someone from audit
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coming, I don't need this drink.
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I'll come by later.
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You're out of there.
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I don't want people to see us coming and think, oh my gosh, they're gonna ask me about that
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forecast, or they're gonna ask me why it's wrong.
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I want them to hang out and say, oh my gosh, I was just thinking about you.
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We are having conversations about this transaction and what are your thoughts?
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What, what does timing look like?
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Does that work?
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How can we make this seamless?
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That's where I think you're doing an excellent job when you're a top of mind and people think
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of you and they wanna reach out versus runaway.
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Wassia Kamon: I love it.
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Like that's an amazing definition of business partnering, an amazing definition
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of success as a business partner.
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I wanna dig a step back and see how would that look like in particular, when you say
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that, for example, you have to appeal to what they need to, what's important to them.
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So now you are part an essential part of their work.
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What does it look like, especially working with.
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Functions like procurement or other function.
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I'm just curious to see if you have any example you can share about how you discovered what was
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important to them and how did you actually got to be invited in those conversation early enough?
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Because you've been in accounting, you know how we learn about things like well after the fact.
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You know what?
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After the,
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Summa Simmons: I think there are a couple of different examples, and if I'm
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being honest, say most, most of them.
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Started out not on the great, the best foot, right?
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Something went awry, some transaction needed to happen at the last minute.
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Treasury was the last to know, and it was a scramble.
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In those moments of the scramble, you can do two things.
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You can give somebody a lecture like you're their parent, and absolutely lose them.
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Absolutely lose them after that.
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Or you can deliver what they need and offer them an education actor, and you become more of a hero.
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It is this idea of, Hey, Lucia just called and we're closing on a lease today, and
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somebody needs a payment at the last minute that slipped through the crack.
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Can you do it?
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Yes, we can absolutely do it, and you go figure out how to do it.
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As you're delivering the thing, you say, Hey, I'm gonna put 30 minutes on your calendar
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next week so we can just kind of talk through this so we can avoid it in the future.
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Because I know you are under the gun and this created a pinch for us.
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And it is not about me telling you how inconvenient this was and how my tea got cold.
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It is about what this means for the company.
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If we don't have an accurate cash forecast, we manage our cash.
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Most companies manage their cash with.
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You're trying to optimize cash, and so you don't wanna have a bunch sitting in a
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bank account that's not earning interest, just like you would manage your own cash.
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So if you tell me about something at the very last minute, and I have to pull from
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somewhere unexpectedly, I've either disrupted the amount of interest that I would've
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earned on those funds, or worse I am paying interest because I'm having to borrow it.
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That then impacts the company's bottom line.
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And once you start talking to them about how.
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This snafu ultimately might impact their bonus.
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It feels different, right?
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It hits different, and no one wants to be blamed, but it's less about the blame and more about.
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Stepping through this theory that everyone has, that treasury teams are sitting
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in this room that looks like a vault.
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With all this cash, I have yet to be yet to be, other than being at a bank
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on a vault tour, I have yet to sit in a room with piles of cash and so just.
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Taking that visual away from people and helping them to understand we're two to three.
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We're either one step away from getting what you need or two to three steps, any cost really helps
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them understand the implication and understand, you know, they might end up on an exception report
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or they now have knowledge that they didn't have.
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And I think most people come to work, work wanting to do a good job.
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And I think most people want to understand as much of the big picture.
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But I'll tell you what doesn't work.
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Speaking to them in your jargon does not work.
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Don't sit people down and beat them over the head with cash optimization
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and liquidity and capital structure.
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Speak to them in language that matters to them.
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Operating income margin, interest expense, outflow inflow, negative cash balance, overdraft.
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People understand that, right?
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And so if you make sure that you're speaking their language, you will always have
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their attention if you speak to them in a way that you speak to your colleagues.
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It's not interesting.
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It just feels like you've created more barrier than you've created relationship.
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And I think once you have the relationship you're in, like nothing excites me more than when
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someone says, Hey, so can you hop on this call?
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We're gonna brainstorm about this, and we just wanted to invite you early.
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Yes, I would love that.
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And if I can't, I'm gonna send someone on the team.
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Because you also wanna reward good behavior, like you want people to bring
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you in early, and I think that's how you.
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You find these key stakeholders.
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So a great example to your point around like procurement, partnering with them
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on perhaps initiatives that they're trying to roll out for small businesses.
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Let's say we want to do business with smaller companies and we understand that they may not
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be able to accommodate our 60 day payment terms.
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We might create an exception for certified minority businesses that you might pay them.
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Within five days of service, but you have to work with treasury to understand
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what that's going to do to liquidity.
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You work together to figure out what the terms might need to be for it to be attractive for
23:03
the other party, to pay to be paid earlier, versus if we can get a discount for paying
23:09
you within five days versus you getting.
23:11
The whole invoice at 60 days.
23:13
What makes more sense for your business?
23:15
And you work with treasury and partner to figure out what's the breakeven on that?
23:20
When does it start to cost us?
23:21
When does it level out to what we would've been paid for interest or what we paid for interest?
23:27
That becomes partnerships that procurement couldn't solve for on their own treasury,
23:31
probably wouldn't be thinking about it.
23:33
And now you have a supplier that's really grateful because they have this
23:36
option that wouldn't otherwise exist.
23:38
And those are small bits.
23:41
Now that procurement team is thinking about you beyond that, and as they think about
23:46
bigger initiatives and projects, you've identified yourself as a good partner.
23:50
And if you say no, sometimes they understand because you've vetted it
23:55
and you've taken them on the journey.
23:56
I think that's the other piece.
23:57
Take people on the journey with you.
24:01
Don't get a question, especially, don't answer immediately.
24:04
Nope, we don't do that here.
24:07
I had to grow from that, right?
24:10
Like you, you are a CFO.
24:12
You don't want a reputation for being the CF no.
24:14
You want a reputation for people knowing.
24:17
If Sia said no, I trust her to give me the why behind it, so I understand how to frame
24:24
my ass next time or I appreciate that.
24:27
It wasn't a no.
24:28
Maybe it was a not yet.
24:30
So I think taking people on the journey, you don't need to give them the intricacy of your
24:33
day job because everybody's busy, but make sure that they walk away more educated and help
24:38
them get to the yes if it's a viable option.
24:42
That has seemed to work for me.
24:44
Wassia Kamon: Oh yeah.
24:44
I mean that's like the perfect textbook of business partnering for sure.
24:49
And I'm curious to hear now, 'cause I know you, you work in a lot of m and a deal and
24:54
I was curious as a treasury expert, what are the red flags or green flags you look
24:59
for when there is a m and a transaction?
25:02
Summa Simmons: So I love this question and while most of the m and a that
25:05
I've been, well, let me get to that.
25:08
Generally most people think of m and a as buying businesses or.
25:12
Acquiring businesses and my experience has been more on the other side of the equation.
25:17
So divestitures and joint ventures or jbs, and those are absolutely
25:21
part of the e and a landscape.
25:23
They just don't have, you know, an acronym that accounts for them, so to speak.
25:27
Yes.
25:29
And they come with their own fair share of complexity, especially
25:33
from a treasury perspective.
25:34
So here the focus is less on valuation and it's more on engineering.
25:41
Clean financial separation and operational readiness.
25:45
So, said differently when we're done with this.
25:48
Is this business viable to run on its own or run as a shared, um, fundamental?
25:53
So in divestitures and jbs, the red and green flags can shift from valuation to viability.
26:01
Because you're not just evaluating what a business is worth.
26:05
You're asking can it stand on its own?
26:08
Can it function on day one?
26:10
And so when I think about green flags, I think about a clear path for
26:15
cash and liquidity separation, well documented intercompany relationships.
26:22
With a visible path to how do you unwind that intercompany?
26:25
Like who are you lending and borrowing to and what does it look like to pay them back?
26:28
Right?
26:29
Treasury specific documentation, like what does our transition services agreement look like?
26:35
Does it include banking?
26:36
Does it include cash management?
26:38
Does it include forecasting?
26:39
Does it include us still funding you?
26:41
And then there's standalone financial modeling that shows the business can
26:47
operate independently, which is what we're ultimately trying to solve for.
26:51
That tells me that the business is being thoughtfully carved out
26:55
and not just legally separated.
26:57
The red flags, they look a little different.
27:00
Commingled cash pools or shared bank accounts with no exit plan.
27:04
So if CIA has five companies and all the money just goes into one
27:08
place, and I only wanna buy one.
27:10
How do I know which cash is associated from the one I'm buying versus.
27:14
It's just a really saucy version of everything.
27:18
Mm-hmm.
27:18
Unclear ownership for working capital or existing debt obligations.
27:24
Is everybody borrowing independently or is was CA borrowing on behalf of everyone?
27:29
How would you be able to strip that out?
27:31
No, standalone treasury operations.
27:33
If you said, oh, we don't have a treasury team, you know, the accountants just kind of take care
27:38
of it, that would make me a little bit nervous.
27:41
And then.
27:42
Assumptions that the infrastructure will just stay the same post-close.
27:48
Very rarely does the infrastructure stay the very same way because
27:53
something has fundamentally changed.
27:55
So is there room to pivot and is there room to figure that out?
27:59
Because in all of these deals, you're not just transitioning ownership, you're building a
28:04
new financial foundation, and treasury's job is to make sure that that foundation is real.
28:10
Reliable and again, ready to go on day one.
28:14
Wassia Kamon: Wow.
28:14
Thank you.
28:15
That was a masterclass.
28:16
I so love it.
28:19
There's so much more where that came from.
28:21
Oh yeah.
28:21
So that, that's why I'm curious, like, is there a, a significant event or transaction
28:26
or experience that really shaped you to be the, the treasury leader you are today?
28:31
Summa Simmons: You know, in the context of m and a, I don't know that there was any one.
28:35
Thing that's happened in my career, but something interesting happened and it just
28:40
happens to align with m and a and I think it's worth sharing the story with you.
28:45
So.
28:46
Early in my career, I supported the tail end, a pretty major divestiture.
28:52
I wasn't leading the deal, but I was watching closely and everything seemed to
28:56
be going smooth, but I was still green, and so I didn't know what I didn't know.
29:01
Years later, I'm at a round table seated next to the treasury lead from the
29:07
acquiring company we'd never met before.
29:10
I. Randomly used the term for my GE days, for my GE Treasury days, and
29:16
she immediately recognized the term.
29:19
It turns out her team had adopted and kept most of the treasury process that we
29:26
handed over to them, so they even like.
29:29
Adapted what was existing to accommodate this new process.
29:34
So that moment really just stuck with me because I didn't own a deal.
29:38
I can't take any credit for it, but I clearly inherited excellence and
29:43
I've carried a lot of those standards into every role I've had since then.
29:48
On the flip side of that, I've seen deals that had so many red flags in the beginning, like.
29:55
No clear handoffs, limited treasury involvement, shaky fundamentals, and let's
30:02
just say they ended how they started.
30:03
So what this taught me in and outta treasury is trust your intuition and always, always
30:12
do clean work because in any environment, and I'll use mine in treasury, what you do today
30:20
might come back to you five years from now or.
30:24
You could wind up sitting next to the person who owns it, and you either in that moment
30:30
you become really fast friends or you spend the whole time pretending to check your email
30:35
during lunch because you need to avoid it.
30:38
'cause they've said something, they're like, this was a mess.
30:40
This thing was terrible.
30:41
And so just lead with your best at all times and if it comes back to you, fantastic.
30:47
If it doesn't know that you've put a good work product out into the world, and I just
30:52
encourage my team to do that at all times.
30:54
Let's not throw things over the fence, especially if you're on a project.
30:57
Be the person that people want to work with on a project.
31:02
I like to think of it as some people are amazing.
31:05
And they will say on budget, they will get that work done, but they leave a trail of bodies.
31:11
And when time comes back around and there's this big project and people
31:14
want the visibility, oh, is on that.
31:16
Oh, nevermind.
31:17
I'll take my chances.
31:18
I'll stay where I am because you were a great partner to work with.
31:21
You got the work done, but you might've been unpleasant, you might've been unfriendly,
31:28
you might've been hangry, but be the person that someone looks forward to working with,
31:34
and more importantly, they're gonna bend over backwards to do a good job for you.
31:37
So I would say just put a good work product out at all times.
31:41
If your, if your name's gonna be on it, make sure that people have
31:44
nothing but good things to say about.
31:46
What is associated with your name?
31:48
Wassia Kamon: Wow.
31:49
I love it.
31:49
I love it.
31:50
And I'm just curious too, now, what is the best career advice you ever received, like in whether
31:55
it is in accounting or in your treasury days?
31:58
Summa Simmons: I have so many, but I think the one that sticks out is probably
32:04
the shortest and the most direct.
32:06
And it's sometimes you're the hammer, sometimes you're the nail.
32:09
Know which one you are and act accordingly.
32:13
When the person said it to me, and this is still today one of my favorite leaders, it taught me
32:18
leadership isn't about always being in charge.
32:22
It's about knowing when to push.
32:24
It's about knowing when to listen, when to pivot, and that level of self-awareness.
32:29
It's, it's not soft.
32:31
It's essential.
32:33
Sometimes you have a new leader and you are the expert.
32:37
You have some options.
32:38
You can flex.
32:39
I'm the leader, and basically give them the, I should have had this job, not you,
32:43
energy, or you can share with them what they know, become their ambassador, become
32:49
their right hand man, and just get them up to speed and let the rest work itself out.
32:55
Because you know what?
32:56
You know you're good at what you do and that person will appreciate the effort, even when
33:02
they know that maybe you should have had the job.
33:04
Just show up and do the right thing.
33:06
You could absolutely.
33:08
You're absolutely the hammer in that moment, but how you handle it really speaks to who
33:13
you are as a person and your character.
33:17
Wassia Kamon: What would you say is the best way you can show it to the next
33:21
generation of leader, to your, to your team?
33:24
Like how do you become that leader?
33:25
Because you'll move on at some point, but what is a trail, hopefully not a trail of
33:30
bodies you living behind, but of people that became better from your leadership?
33:35
Like how do you help your team grow into being the business partner you
33:38
are and being the treasury experts?
33:41
I
33:41
Summa Simmons: think leading by example, but being really vulnerable and transparent
33:46
and when people are doing great work, tell them, Hey, you handled that incredibly.
33:52
I wouldn't have done anything differently.
33:54
And be consistent with your feedback.
33:56
Like I like to invite people into feedback, good, bad, or indifferent.
34:01
I'll say, cia, can I give you some feedback?
34:04
And you're fully allowed to tell me.
34:06
No, not today.
34:08
Maybe tomorrow, because sometimes you're just not in a position to receive it, and
34:13
sometimes the feedback is good, but if you say you're not ready for it today, I'll wait.
34:16
And tomorrow we can have this conversation.
34:18
But I think it, I think of it like Google reviews.
34:21
I'm gonna leave a Google review, good, bad or indifferent.
34:25
I'm not the person who's gonna get on there and go crazy because I didn't get my way.
34:30
I am the person that's gonna get on there and share my experience.
34:34
This was the best food I've ever had.
34:37
But the service left.
34:38
The hostess that we had was incredible.
34:41
The server was really great.
34:43
This thing happened, that thing happened.
34:45
But when you are consistent, people can receive what you're saying in a way that they want to
34:50
take it with them, and more importantly, in a way that they want to pay that behavior forward.
34:55
And I think from all the teams that I've been on.
34:58
I like to believe that I'm getting to know folks that work with me.
35:03
I never like to say four folks that work with me.
35:05
I, I'm getting to know you as a human.
35:08
And when we sit down to have a tv, you're always gonna hear how are you otherwise, always like, I
35:17
don't care what big transaction we have going on.
35:20
You run down your to-do list and that's great.
35:22
How are you otherwise, everything else, okay.
35:24
Is there anything I can do?
35:25
And I think just being someone that shows up consistently for the people around
35:30
you is how you build strong leaders.
35:33
The premise of that is I can give you difficult feedback and you don't take it personal because
35:38
when you're killing it, I tell you that too.
35:41
If you did a presentation and it was not your best, I think we should walk through the content.
35:46
More next time or let me know how I can better support you.
35:49
I think it's being accessible and being available and approaching relationships
35:54
as a coach and not as someone that's just wagging a finger and waiting to Gotcha.
36:00
Like I, I think just.
36:02
Showing up and being a decent person, like it doesn't always move you quickly.
36:07
I'll say that sometimes it seems the villains move a lot faster, but when you're in
36:12
bigger roles and you need to recruit, those are the people that wanna work for you.
36:17
Someone that was on your team 5, 6, 7 years ago, maybe earlier in your career, you
36:21
post on LinkedIn, you have an open role.
36:24
They may not be dissatisfied where they are, but they appreciated your leadership style.
36:29
They felt like they grew working for you, and they'll take the leap.
36:31
Like I always say, you know, I'm in treasury now and I really love it, but
36:35
for some of my best leaders, they could invite me into something completely
36:38
different and I would likely take the call.
36:41
Because I grew under them, I felt supported, I felt developed, and I felt unstoppable.
36:46
I felt like they gave me the space to learn and grow and to make calculated risks, and I loved
36:52
the version of me that was born out of that because I started out being an accountant who
36:57
wanted to be a controller when she grew up in.
36:59
That goal is kind of gone.
37:00
I don't wanna do that now.
37:01
I'm just like open to, to what's next.
37:04
Wassia Kamon: And you're probably enjoying your birthdays.
37:06
I'm curious, what day of the month is your birthday?
37:09
Summa Simmons: It's in August and I tried to celebrate the whole month.
37:13
I'm actually, you know, a few weeks out now and I already have most of it teed up and.
37:19
That is the biggest win for me to be able to take my birthday off.
37:22
And if we ever decided to renew our wedding vows, we wouldn't have to plan
37:26
them around a month and close month that.
37:28
Yep.
37:28
So those are the small things that.
37:30
Are never lost on me.
37:32
And when I reach out to my friends in accounting and we need to working on a
37:35
project, I always lead with what weeks work best for you because I get it.
37:40
So yes, we love being able to celebrate birthdays.
37:44
It's like anything else.
37:45
You don't appreciate it until it's taken away.
37:47
And I'm a huge birthday ambassador, like the countdown has already started.
37:51
Wassia Kamon: I'm a big birthday.
37:52
I, I, I celebrate my birthday month and I usually have.
37:57
Two or three cakes around the birthday.
37:59
'cause I like to, to eat the cake I like, so I have a nothing but cake in the morning.
38:04
I wake up, I have cake.
38:05
It's my birthday and then the, I'm not judging.
38:08
Yeah.
38:10
Summa Simmons: Trust me, you're speaking my language.
38:11
I am so not judging.
38:13
Like I, there are multiple cakes.
38:15
Yes.
38:16
Like there, it's a season of cake.
38:18
Yes.
38:18
Wassia Kamon: Yes.
38:19
I like my cakes.
38:20
I like having cake for breakfast the next two, three days.
38:23
So I'll, I'll get a good sized cake.
38:24
'cause you have to eat cake on your birthday.
38:28
Summa Simmons: It's not your birthday without cake.
38:30
Yes.
38:30
Is how I think of it.
38:31
Same.
38:31
And I am a big fan of like, I like to make, I like to recreate experiences and I love nothing.
38:39
Bunt cake.
38:40
What's your favorite?
38:41
Wassia Kamon: Nothing but Ooh.
38:42
The white chocolate with the raspberry.
38:44
There's signature with the raspberry.
38:45
Summa Simmons: Yeah.
38:47
I struggle 'cause I love that one.
38:49
But I also really love their red velvet.
38:51
Oh, the red velvet too.
38:52
It's so cliche, but Oh yeah.
38:55
So I get the, um, the tini me too, the box of a dozen because then I get to have
39:00
a little bit of everything and it feels like one serving when I have it with
39:04
my tea in the morning, so I'm with you.
39:05
Yeah.
39:05
I don't want a whole big bunk cake.
39:07
I want
39:08
Wassia Kamon: all of the little ones.
39:09
See, I do the low ones and the big one.
39:12
But let's go to the next question,
39:17
and that will be my last question.
39:18
What is your favorite thing to do outside of work?
39:21
Hmm.
39:22
Oh my goodness.
39:23
You are
39:24
Summa Simmons: speaking my language.
39:25
Outside of work, I'm all about food, flights, and a good fit.
39:31
I love to travel.
39:33
I'm trying to condition myself.
39:35
I'm practicing to be carry on only, but I have to have an agenda that includes great meals.
39:41
Mm-hmm.
39:42
Beautiful views, and at least one luxury I probably don't need.
39:46
Okay.
39:47
Because why not?
39:48
We're on vacation when I'm home.
39:50
You'll find me in stylish glasses.
39:54
Yes.
39:54
Cuddled up with my Kindle, or turning over our guest room to host
39:58
friends visiting from out of town.
40:00
So we live in Ohio.
40:01
We're from New York originally.
40:03
Most of our friends and family are there, and we've met a lot of friends
40:06
over the years being transplant.
40:07
So hospitality is my love language.
40:10
A little dash of whimsy and a well stocked welcome basket that just makes my day.
40:16
Just makes my day.
40:17
Wassia Kamon: Oh, you sound like a fabulous hostess.
40:19
Yes, I do plan my, I don't, yeah, I do plan my trip around food and some activities,
40:26
so I actually, before I travel, I already know where I'll have breakfast, lunch,
40:30
dinner, like I'm the admin, like at at work.
40:33
You kind of the boss, but at home I'm like the secretary making things
40:39
Summa Simmons: happen.
40:40
Wassia Kamon: But I love it.
40:41
I think that you're the chief operating officer.
40:43
You are the vacation curator.
40:46
Nice.
40:47
I love it.
40:47
I love how you're empowering
40:49
Summa Simmons: me right now.
40:50
Vacation curator.
40:51
'cause I'm not going to not having a good time and we are not leaving it to chance.
40:54
And I'm reading every Google Review.
40:56
Yes.
40:57
Before I go.
40:58
Because I can't be disappointed.
40:59
Yeah, like and lemme get one shot, so you gotta nail it.
41:03
I love vacation Curator.
41:04
Wassia Kamon: Yes.
41:05
Vacation curator.
41:06
I'm gonna use it.
41:06
Movement.
41:07
You're not the admin.
41:08
You're not the secretary.
41:09
Thank you.
41:09
Vacation experience extraordinaire.
41:11
Ooh man.
41:13
I need to have like.
41:15
Summa right here, and then I'll just like Summa rub like a genie.
41:20
Give me good words.
41:21
Thank you.
41:22
I'm just the text away always.
41:24
Thank you.
41:25
Thank you so much for being on the show.
41:27
It was so great having you.
41:29
Summa Simmons: This was the absolute highlight of my day.
41:32
I feel like I can put a check mark through one of my goals, which was to sit down with you.
41:36
We haven't even unpacked just how amazing you are.
41:39
Thank you.
41:39
Um, and you've given me a lot of inspiration around doing it.
41:44
Adding 10,000 more letters behind my name so I can catch up with you 'cause you have quite
41:48
a few and really stepping through the process and being a possibility model if nothing else.
41:54
What I loved most about stumbling onto you, you represent the art of Possible and I think there
42:01
aren't a lot of podcasts like yours and it.
42:04
Is so refreshing to know that you are here, you're building, you're growing.
42:09
You mentioned that you're in season two, and anybody I could send your way to make sure
42:14
that you make it to season 20, I'm happy to do it 'cause this is just fantastic work.
42:18
So the pleasure
42:20
Wassia Kamon: was all mine.
42:22
And that's it for today's episode of The Diary of A CFO.
42:25
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42:27
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42:32
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42:36
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42:50
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43:03
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