Latest / Better Together / From Backpacking Africa to Building a Global Business - Valerie Bowden
Transcript
- Shawn Sundsvold: Welcome back to the Better Together podcast. I am Sean Sunsvold along with my co-host, Kelly Sunsvold. She set out on a one-way flight to South Africa with no return date and barely enough money to keep going. Seven months and nine days later, she backpacked the length of the continent solo, and she still calls it the best trip of her life. That trip turned into eight years living in Ethiopia. Years she spent working inside the outsourcing industry and watching what actually happened and what didn't. When she came home, she took what she'd learned and started Cradle, a company that connects US businesses with top talent across Africa. Three and a half years later, what began as a side hustle she hoped might hit eleven clients has grown into a team of over 200, all while she runs the company on daycare hours as a mom of two and soon to be three. Valerie Bowden, welcome to the show. We're so glad you're here. Valerie Bowden: Thank you for having me. That was such a great intro. I appreciate it. Shawn Sundsvold: you're welcome. I was very excited to kind of put this together after our initial conversation. So, you know, as we get started here, just to get started, for people who are just meeting you, take us back to that one way flight to South Africa. What made you get on the plane? Valerie Bowden: Well, I was twenty five and I had been working after grad school at my first nine to five and I hated it. It was just like not the right company, not the right role for me. And I thought, like, I am too young to be sitting at a desk and not be enjoying it. So I thought I would take a year off and just travel. And I had been to Ethiopia once, like years back, and it was like enough of a good experience that I knew like it would be cool to see Ethiopia again and see other African countries. And then because I was so broke after grad school, that's why I had to backpack because that I couldn't afford any other accommodation. So yeah, I took a one way flight to South Africa also because I was like scared. Like what if what if it's a bad, you know, experience? I want to be able to fly out from anywhere. And instead it ended up being amazing, much safer than I realized. And I traveled, yeah, the whole entire length of the continent until I really ran out of money and and had to get a job again. Kelly: That's crazy. I mean, but also like really, really awesome because you got to see, you know, and take that time and as, you know, we were kind of talking before the show, being a parent, you know, it you have kind of that time to be able to do those things without having you know, children around. and so I was reading about you prior to the show and you have said you have no scary stories. you know, so soloing Backpacking across Africa, which is the opposite of yeah, which you know, like I would think like there would be like lions or something, I don't know, but Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: you know, what did most people get wrong about you traveling there alone? What do they get wrong like in the assumptions? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, I mean my friends and family were really nervous before I left. It was right when the movie, do you remember the movie Taken like was was out? So that Kelly: Yes. Shawn Sundsvold: Yes. Valerie Bowden: really kind of made things so much worse. but yeah, I truly had no scary stories. I have a lot of stories where it was like, I got lost and then somebody helped me. And often people would say, like, this is how I'd want someone to treat my sister or my wife or my daughter. And so people would go out of their way to help me. And When I actually started researching, like why, like, why is it that I feel safer in Africa? Like, why am I hitchhiking here? And I would never do that in America. And according to the Global Peace Index, the majority of African countries are actually safer than the US. And that Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Valerie Bowden: really proved to be quite true on my trip on how safe I felt. And so, yeah, I think the media has not done any favors towards the continent in in providing like an updated or accurate narrative about what the continent's truly like today. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, it's it it's 'cause a lot of times what what gets portrayed to us is very rural, very out Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: you know, but I mean, there's cities just like New York or whatever else. They're all there. We just don't see those as often, right? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, yeah, the especially the capital cities are getting so modern, and some of their innovations are really above the US. There's countries whose internet speed is faster than the speed in America. I mean, it's really, it's really amazing. And because I lived in Ethiopia for eight years, it was really interesting to also see how many countries in the world are doing good business with Africa. Like there's so many European countries and Middle Eastern countries that are doing great business. But America, because we have this negative perception. we keep saying like let's just do nonprofits, let's just keep doing charities because we don't really see the business potential. But the rest of the world is doing much better business and many better interactions with the continent than we are. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I wanna I wanna stick on that thread for just a second because you you kinda talked about Ethiopia specifically and what was it about Ethiopia that you decided I'm gonna spend eight years here instead of just six months? Valerie Bowden: Well, again, so I finished my trip and I was like, I can't go home to the Midwest. Like I'm from Indiana. So you cannot go home to Indiana when you just spent seven months trekking gorillas and diving with sharks. And one time I fed a wild hyena raw meat out of my mouth, right? It was just like adventure after adventure. So you cannot go back to Indiana and just do like another nine to five. So I told my parents, six more months in Ethiopia. Like somebody offer me a job. They'll give me the visa I need, just six months, and then mom, I promise I'm coming home. And then another six months go by, and I renew my visa over and over until yeah, eight years. I came home right after COVID. So it was just like such a great experience to be there. if you've had Ethiopian coffee, it's it's the country that invented coffee. So you just you just drink coffee all day long. It's it's the best coffee you'll ever have. They have great food, great people. Because it's an emerging country, things are changing so much in a really interesting way. Except especially if you're like an entrepreneur, like you're just constantly thinking 'cause you're seeing so much innovation around you. And so yeah, I just I had a great time living there. Kelly: I love that. I love the stories and like raw meat like in your mouth feeding I'm just like, Ha what an experience, you know, like truly. Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: you know So kind of looping back, you mentioned nonprofits. so you saw firsthand that a lot of nonprofits weren't creating the impact they they claimed, Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: which some I've also seen, some of that little tail ends of like on Instagram, you know, in the Valerie Bowden: Mm. Kelly: media, just in general. but job creation was. so what Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: was the moment that shifted your thinking from social work to business? Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Well, my I've gone to grad school for social work. So even though I was traveling and just having like a great time, I would stop at nonprofits and charities and and things I heard about. And like you said, I was just continually disappointed. There are some great nonprofits, but the the vast majority I was seeing, even the ones that you hear great things about in the US, they're just either illegally operating or the Americans running it were really the ones benefiting it from it, not the local people. Or if you think about it, like nobody really wants donated shoes. Like they want to have their own job so that they can buy their own shoes, right? And there's just so many reasons to it. And so I just became really certain that I wanted nothing to do with the charity world. It just felt like way too corrupt for me. And again, the idea of having jobs, it was sustainable, it was ethical. I just thought it was so much better. So I got an offer. One I was hitchhiking and I got an offer from the guy driving saying, like, hey, I work for an outsourcing company and they're trying to hire an American. And so they hired me on the spot just because I was from the US. And that was how I heard that like large companies in the US were actually hiring from Africa. I had no idea. Before I thought of India, I thought of the Philippines, but I didn't know how much hiring was being done in Ethiopia. And immediately when I started that job, It would be like a contact center. They need 20 more people or 40 more people. And that was just more jobs for the youth. So when I initially started doing that, I was like, this is so cool. I love this much better than the charity work. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And you know, as you were working for that outsourcing company, what was your experience like and what what were things you noticed that sort of prompted you to maybe start thinking of doing something different? Valerie Bowden: Well, one day I got in their version of Uber and it was one of our team members. And I was like, why are you like, why are you have a second job? And that was when I started to realize that most of them had second jobs because they are all getting paid 50 cents an hour, which was not a livable wage, especially when you're talking about working for like a fortune fifty company in America. Like it was just kind of appalling that those were the wages. And I was also kind of running the social media and we couldn't promote that these large companies were hiring from Africa. It was very hush hush. And I also just saw that they weren't treating them well. There was no career ladder. Like it just was a little, it was like close to what I wanted to do, but you saw some major holes in it as well. So then we moved back to Pittsburgh and I decide I'm gonna quit my job. I'm gonna start my own outsourcing company. We're only gonna hire from Africa because I do love the social impact. Today we hire 70% of who we hire is women, but we pay better, we pay in USD. And our clients are very well aware that we hire from Africa and we want them to think like that's so cool. Like if you have a VA in Zimbabwe, like that's cool. If you have an offshore cold calling team in Ethiopia, we want you to be proud of that and not and not hide it. And our clients have really embraced our mission and it's been really cool to see like the win-wins that we're able to create. Kelly: Yeah, we I can so relate with that, like at Gold Bear Media, like we've hired offshore, you Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: know, Philippines, Colombia, India. and I will say like the culture and the conversations are rich. and that's something Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: I really like for our team. you know, our our whole global team is learning about one another. so I love that you're making it as Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: a good thing. It's not just, hey, you can save a lot of money and underpay these people over here because you're never Valerie Bowden: Yeah. Kelly: gonna see them as really valuing our global culture which we're all a part Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: of so mom to mom you start a cradle when you're eight months pregnant yeah aiming for maybe Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: 11 clients is a side hustle you are so ambitious at eight months pregnant Valerie Bowden: Ha ha. Kelly: i most are not so what was the moment that you realized this had become something much bigger than that Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Well, one of the reasons I I also wanted to create my own company is because I was pregnant with my second child and there were so many times where I could hear my toddler crying, knocking on the door, he needs me. I'm in a client call. And the the company I was working for did not have a culture where like kids were really like welcome in the in the video calls. And it just as a mom, it feels so bad to like hear your kid crying and not be able to go instantly get them. And so that's why I wanted to start my own company and also just have more ability to be with my kids. And so yeah, launching it at eight months was kind of crazy. Very slow start, probably like not what I'd recommend to start being like financially unstable when you're pregnant. but it it did work out. And after I placed the first few people, the clients were like, well, my friend wants to hire, or like, now I need another person. And then my team members kept saying, like, hey, can you hire my sister? Can you hire my friend? And it just felt like, well, who am I to say no? Like both sides really want this and it's creating good. So I thought, like, we just hire a few more and then a few more. And then soon I needed my own internal team members to help me because I couldn't do it by myself. And when I hired my first assistant, I tripled my business in three months. And it was just like the power of what I was preaching to my clients. Like when you're in your zone of genius and you're doing what like the highest revenue, you know, generating activity instead of this admin stuff, like you do grow. So I remember that first year I went from I think six thousand a month in January to 18,000 a month in March, just from hiring one person. And that just then we just took off like crazy after that. And I've continued to continue hiring my own internal team to to support this. And yeah, now it's granted 200 people, which is wild. and it's not slowing down. So it's now we have a goal of getting to a thousand. Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. Wow. Like that's I I have no other word to describe it. That's just explosive growth, right? To go from Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: I think you started with 11, you know, kind of right off the bat. Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: In three and a half years, right, you've gotten to 200. Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: just I'm curious, what did that speed actually feel like as the as the CEO and being on the inside? Was it thrilling? Was it overwhelming? Valerie Bowden: I think it was mostly thrilling because in I've done my own like side hustles before and like they didn't really take off and it was kind of like a slow death, you know. And so to see something that was supposed to be a side hustle actually explode was I think every entrepreneur's dream. And so even when I was like so tired, it also felt like I'm living the dream. Like this is a good problem to have. And there's so many people who would trade me spots in like an instant. and then again, because I hired From Africa, I really am hiring some of the best people. So it's it's not just me. They they've all contributed their own ideas and expertise and they've changed how we work for the better. And so it doesn't feel as overwhelming because I do have a like a a great solid team. Kelly: Yeah, that's that's really great. so you're talking about being a mom while working. been there definitely COVID, I think a lot of parents kind of, Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: you know, had some issues for sure. But you built this company specifically on daycare hours, which kudos as a working mom. Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: and you're about to do it again with your Valerie Bowden: Baby number three. Mm-hmm. Kelly: Third baby, number three on the way. So what did you have to say or what did what did you have to say no to in order to protect that structure? Valerie Bowden: There were times where I was like, we would Kelly: Okay. Valerie Bowden: be so much further in business if I could work 60 hours a week. And you would hear other founders kind of brag about that. And then one day it hit me like, I don't want to actually work 60 hours a week. Like that sounds miserable. And so sometimes I feel like I'm choosing slower growth because I am working, you know, from nine to three thirty every day. But it really hasn't slowed us down because I've just chosen To hire. And it turns out that as long as I'm doing the things I'm best at, and I hire people who can do what they're best at, it it tends to all work out. And so I think just being really clear on your principles makes a big difference. And if you stick to your values, you still get ahead because I still feel good and I'm showing up every day feeling positive and I don't feel guilty and I'm not overly tired. And so I think that actually has had a really big reflection on the success we've had. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, I I I I respect that, honestly, because I think, you know, that sixty hour you know, work week thing, like having worked in corporate America, I've been there, I've done the sixty, sixty-five, seventy hour work weeks and it's draining. so to Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: see you build it like this has just been fantastic. I'm curious those are they're competing priorities in some ways, right? Of being a mom and owning a business. was there ever a moment where you were pulled kind of equally in one direction and you had to decide which one is gonna win out. Valerie Bowden: But I mean, it's because my children are still so small, it really is impossible to work when they're at the home. Like they are in the office, they are unplugging things. Like it is impossible. There have been a few times where I felt like, okay, there's a massive deadline. And so after they go to bed, I would log in for a few hours. And I felt so tired the next day, so burnt out, that it just like I realized like that still does not serve me. so No, I mean I just try to set reasonable expectations, but I think we're still known for our speed and our quality. So I don't think it's hurt me and I love knowing that I'm not gonna feel bad when their kids are older. Like I didn't miss out on their I I was able to go to daycare for the Halloween parade that they put at twelve PM on a Monday. Like it's really nice to be able to be there for those kind of things and I I don't think I'll feel guilty like later on. So yeah, I feel really grateful to be able to do this and I also let my internal team members do the same thing. Like everybody has ample PTO. They can take their kids to school when they need to. And so I make sure that they also have what I have too. Kelly: I love that. I love that. That's definitely a great culture to have. you Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: know, we're talking beginning, like we have pretty much adult children now. And I love being able to go, you know, especially over the summer where they're like, Hey mom, do you I'm having a bad day. Do you want to go get a milkshake at Chick-fil-A or something? You know, and I can take that forty-five minutes as a as an owner and just go, you know what, I need to I need to pause what I'm doing here because a This is my priority and this is why I'm doing what we're doing at the end of the day. So much that we Valerie Bowden: Okay. Kelly: agree on here. And I love the way that you've set up this company, Valerie. So you've really shifted from founder. So this idea that you had at Eight Months Pregnant to you shifted from founder to CEO. Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: and you've mentioned it was difficult. so going from someone who wants to do everything yourself to someone who has to let go and let your team run without you. what made that transition click? Was it a hire that you had that you just were able to really like trust that person? Or was it something else inside your brain that you're like, you know what, I can't, I just cannot do it all. Like my toddler's running around and I I want to stop and play blocks with them, you know. Valerie Bowden: Yeah. It's it's definitely a different transition. There's probably two main things happened. The first was for a long time I thought like I'm the only person who could do these sales calls. And then one day it hit me I say the same thing on every single sales call. Like I you know, like the the invoice is the same, the hours are the same, the role like everything is the same. And it just hit me like this could be repeated by somebody else. And turns out I was right, and he actually probably does a better job than I do because his only focus is doing these sales calls. And my focus was 12 other things. So I wasn't always as present as I needed to be. So that was one thing, just realizing like, yes, this is trainable. and the second thing is as we grew, I had a mentor who said you can get to the first seven figures pretty easily without a lot of systems or processes. And then after that things will break. And that was very true for me. So, you know, I could do whatever I wanted the first, you know, the first couple of years. And when we hit That revenue milestone, you could see my team was just really struggling with the lack of systems and processes in place. There was just no organization to it. we didn't have a very big tech stack and mistakes were happening. And so it really became like, I actually need to pull back and work on this and empower my team. and so that was another reason why I just there was no other option. Like it had to be me to to set this up in the way that I really envisioned for for my brand. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. And I I yeah, that's just that's amazing. I I just can't say it enough of just the way you've put this all together. you know, and and the success you've had in doing it. So I wanna shift gears a little bit and just think about like other founders 'cause that that is a a significant portion of our listening audience as founders and people who want to start a business are kind of getting started. If another founder came to you today and I you know, I could say eight months pregnant, just like your situation was, but let's say pregnant, right? and Valerie Bowden: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: st wanting to start something from nothing, you know, what is one piece of advice you'd give them that you wish someone had given to you? Valerie Bowden: I think the things that really helped me the most was just to start and not be perfect. So like just put an an offering out there, just try a product, whatever you have to do, because I think sometimes people wait so long to test it that it never gets out there. And so just being okay with like being imperfect first. And the second thing is I did utilize a lot of fractional support. Like there's never been a better time to be a founder. I had a a fractional CFO. I used an outside marketing agency. So I didn't have to do that part. and again, you can use offshore help. You can use AI. So I think founders have it better today than ever. So focus on what you can do best yourself, what lights you up, and then everything else hire for or use somebody else to do it for you. Kelly: why has hiring women specifically like become such a a core part of how you build teams? Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Well, we for some reason we get like tons of more female applicants, which is exciting. And honestly, our clients typically request females to hire. they think that they're better cold callers or they've had better experiences with women being more reliable. And we don't argue with that. Like we're we're really happy to create jobs for women. I think especially just being a mom, like I just see how important it is for women to have their own control of finances. and then once one person gets a hi gets hired with us, they often then refer their sister or their cousin. And so we have like three sisters who all work with us. And we have other sisters and like you just like it just naturally they invite their friends and so we get more women. but it's been exciting to see how our clients also really like Shawn Sundsvold: Have you ever had a client push back or want you to source from somewhere else and how did you handle it? Valerie Bowden: We've had a lot of clients concerned about hiring from Africa because again, they've either never heard that you can hire from Africa or their narrative is you know, not updated, right? Because if you haven't been there, you don't know how modern it is. And so we always send like audio samples really help them see like, okay, they do speak really good English. And then we'll set up an interview. And when they meet them, they go from being like initially unsure to being like, this person's overqualified, right? And like they just become so impressed. but yeah, I think having to help clients overcome the narrative is probably one of the hardest things that we do. Yeah. I we're probably known for sales. So we do tons of cold calling, appointment setting. I love being able to like build a pipeline for a client. I think that's exciting. we also do customer service and admin assistance. And we just got into insurance billing, which is a fun new vertical we're exploring. Kelly: you've grown a lot so far Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: in a short amount of time. So if Cradle grows another 10x from here, do you think you'll personally want to run it or is there a version of the story where you build it, hand it off, and then go back to the more independent, kind of hands-on life that you had before? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, I mean our our goal is really to help the world see that you can hire from Africa and have a great experience. So the the goal would be to to keep sticking with the company, but to maybe even be more public about it. I would love to do like more bigger keynotes or speaking to larger companies that can really hire in volume. So until people think about hiring from Africa in the same way they think about hiring from the Philippines, like until it's like at that same knowledge level, I think I really wanna keep running cradle and we're doing great things and it's we have cool clients and really cool team members. So it's just been like a it's like a fun journey to do. Shawn Sundsvold: Along with that and the running the company and having the fun and doing that, do you see yourself kind of getting involved in other places to either help further the business or help further kind of relations or w what's kind of a future thing that you you're thinking about along with the company? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, it's hard. I've realized like I am not the kind of person who can have multi focus. Maybe because my hours are limited. So we really are like, this is what we're good at. This is we're gonna cut keep doing. as AI comes out, sometimes that shifts your thinking a little bit. But I think we just wanna keep repeating what we're doing, but find more clients who need it. and that's like the priority for right now. Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes picking one like well, actually that follows your brand. The what you said, you like Valerie Bowden: Mm. Kelly: you you even mentioned that that's how you operated your your task list. You're like, I can hand Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Kelly: this off to another salesperson and they're gonna do so much better at it. So yeah, that seems like it's it's a core thread throughout Cradle and throughout how you leave, which is great. what's something about balancing growth and motherhood that you now know? that you're glad you didn't know at the start. because it might have scared you off. It might have turned into one of those scary stories. Although I yeah. Valerie Bowden: Yeah, I mean, I think I've learned I think the biggest thing I've had to overcome is just not getting too emotional about things. I think as an entrepreneur, you can be on this roller coaster, but if you're having a bad day and your kids come home, you really have to like you really have to kind of compartmentalize it and just be with your kids fully. And I've I've gotten to the place where if I'm having a bad day at Cradle, I can just say it's like one of those days and tomorrow will will be better and then tomorrow is always better. And so I've just not letting myself get too down. Or if it's if something happens and it feels overwhelming, just like drop it, go take a walk. And now I I find myself having to like teach my team members this because you know, if if a client quits or a team member quits or there's some kind of issue, you see how they're just like so emotionally taken over. And that doesn't help. So you kind of have to have like that balance of emotions just for your own mental health and being sustainable. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, that that process of, you know, not I mean our our jobs are are important, right? But they should never the emotions should never trump our ability to kinda think through logically those situations and teaching people to do that. I'm g w what has that process been like almost to to teach them that and how have you seen it affect your business? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, I mean there's especially one team member who handles a lot of our a lot of our clients. So she's the one who's like also kind of like on the ride with you, which is exactly what you'd want for your team member. You want them to care so much that they feel those feelings. but a lot of it's also having data. So it's like that's another thing we put into play. So you can feel like this is the worst day ever. Everything is so bad. And then you can look at a dashboard and be like, 98% of our clients are in the green category and doing really, really well. So statistically, there's always gonna be one thing off or something that that happened. And so just having like that clear visibility, I think also keeps things in perspective that it's never it's never as bad as you think, especially when you realize how many good things are actually happening too. Kelly: this one. So Mm mm. Valerie Bowden: I would say Malawi. It's a country you never hear about. It's so tiny. It's such a gem. They have a beautiful lake, really cheap, really nice people. Yeah, I think it's like the most underrated country there is. Shawn Sundsvold: Well, how can people learn more about you and your company and what you're doing and if maybe they're looking Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: for some outsourced help, how can they get in contact with you and the company? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, you can always go to our website and it's spelled C R D L E. So it's like cradle without the A. and there you can like watch a video about us. Even if you don't want to hire, but you're like, I just want to see what Ethiopia actually looks like. You'll see some cool videos and music on it. and if not, I'm also on LinkedIn at Valerie Bowden and I post free tips all the time on like how to hire offshore team members. So even if you have a team in the Philippines or Latin America and you don't want to hire from Africa right now, those tips really generally apply for it anywhere that you're hiring from. Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. And you do public speaking as well, correct? Valerie Bowden: Yeah, I've I'm starting to and it's been really fun. It's something I didn't realize I would like so much, but a little bit addicting once you start to do it. Shawn Sundsvold: right? That they can take Valerie Bowden: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: away things from what you're saying and apply them right away, Valerie Bowden: knowledge. and then it's like if you go into it even expecting nothing back, but you're just going to like that good intention, like so many good things actually do come out of it, which is really cool. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. All right. Well, Valerie, thank you so much for being a guest on this show. This is a fantastic conversation and I know we'll talk to you again in the future, but you know, until then I hope everything goes well with baby number three and the rest of the year and, you know, the growth curve that you guys have been on. Valerie Bowden: Thank you so much. It was great being here and I appreciate it. Shawn Sundsvold: Thanks a lot.