Latest / The Game Business Show / The number of video game articles dropped by over 100,000 in Q1

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The number of video game articles dropped by over 100,000 in Q1 · The Game Business Show

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Focusing on the big releases and trying to get the best
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possible traffic.
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So a little bit of a red ocean aspect to it because everybody
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is going for those
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SPEAKER_00: releases and a site like,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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probably IGN is going to end up dominating a lot of the search
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engine results.
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SPEAKER_02: Broadly speaking,
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SPEAKER_02: if there is one of those AI summaries on the Google search page,
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SPEAKER_02: that results in like a 34% drop,
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SPEAKER_02: I think,
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SPEAKER_02: in traffic to the top listed article.
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Hello and welcome back to the Game Business Show with me
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Christopher Dring.
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This week video game websites are publishing significantly
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fewer articles as the
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SPEAKER_03: game media landscape continues to contract.
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SPEAKER_03: Bethesda Surprise dropped a major Elder Scrolls remaster.
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We're starting to see the first impacts of Trump's tariffs and
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Jackbox Games talks
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SPEAKER_03: about Netflix getting in on its space.
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SPEAKER_03: But first let me introduce you to not one but two guest hosts this week.
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SPEAKER_03: We have leading editorial consultant,
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SPEAKER_03: the former editorial director at ReadPop and Gamer Network,
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SPEAKER_03: and the former editor of Official Xbox Magazine.
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SPEAKER_03: We have John Hicks,
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SPEAKER_03: and renowned journalist and podcaster,
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SPEAKER_03: former news director at IGN,
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SPEAKER_03: and former US Gamer editor-in-chief,
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SPEAKER_03: Kat Bailey.
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SPEAKER_03: Welcome, John and Kat, to the show.
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SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Chris.
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SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for having us.
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SPEAKER_03: This is our one-month anniversary of the Game Business Show.
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SPEAKER_03: Oh, congratulations.
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SPEAKER_03: You are our one-month guest hosts.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, mazel tov.
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SPEAKER_03: I've been absolutely loving it.
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SPEAKER_03: It's been an absolute joy.
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I certainly don't miss being part of a machine,
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but we'll talk about that later.
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SPEAKER_03: I thought I'd actually ask about Elder Scrolls.
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SPEAKER_03: Jon,
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I don't think you were on official Xbox magazine when Elder
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Scrolls Oblivion launched,
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SPEAKER_03: but are you a fan?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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I played it when it came out when I was still on PC magazines
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way back then,
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SPEAKER_02: but it's not something I am rushing to...
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SPEAKER_02: Candidly,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't have time to play new RPGs,
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SPEAKER_02: but let's go back to ones that came out a long time ago.
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SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting that Microsoft,
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SPEAKER_02: they kind of went from like rumor to here it is very rapidly,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: the kind of the announcement and the drop.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: which was quite,
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quite fun to witness and interested to see if that becomes more
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of a trend.
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And I think the last time they did that or the last time I
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remember them doing that
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SPEAKER_02: was for Hi-Fi Rush.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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So whether that's and I guess maybe that's related to what we
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talk about in terms
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SPEAKER_02: of like how games companies release things.
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SPEAKER_03: Kat, you're a RPG expert.
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SPEAKER_03: You have an RPG newsletter.
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SPEAKER_03: What did you make of the... I mean, we knew this was coming.
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SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was a surprise.
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SPEAKER_03: This wasn't a surprise in the sense it existed.
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SPEAKER_03: But what did you make of the reveal?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: We've known about this one coming for quite a while, haven't we?
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SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, it's a pretty impressive remake for the most part.
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SPEAKER_00: Runs in 4K60.
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SPEAKER_00: It's in Unreal Engine 5.
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SPEAKER_00: It has
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SPEAKER_00: Some frame rate hitches.
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SPEAKER_00: I understand that it doesn't run extremely well on PS5 Pro,
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SPEAKER_00: but it is being considered to be quite a strong package,
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SPEAKER_00: all things considered,
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especially given that it's being sold for $49.99 and it's
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available right away.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's free on Game Pass as well.
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SPEAKER_00: So this is, I think, being perceived as a win.
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SPEAKER_00: It got off to a very strong start on Steam.
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SPEAKER_00: Last I checked,
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SPEAKER_00: it was easily in the top 25 of releases on that platform,
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SPEAKER_00: and that would be for people who were paying.
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SPEAKER_00: Of course,
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Nintendo fans are comparing it favorably to the Tears of the
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Kingdom remaster,
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which is being sold for more money and does not include any of
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the DLC and does not
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SPEAKER_00: have access to cloud saves,
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SPEAKER_00: among other things.
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SPEAKER_03: I really think the cloud saving might have shifted.
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SPEAKER_03: I saw a story.
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SPEAKER_03: It got removed from whatever that alert was that's confused people.
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SPEAKER_03: I think I said this last week about the price.
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SPEAKER_03: Obviously, for me, the Breath of the Wild is the Kingdom upgrade.
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It's not costing me anything because I'm a Nintendo Switch
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Online customer and I
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SPEAKER_03: already own the game.
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SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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SPEAKER_03: It's one of those weird things.
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It depends on where you are on that spectrum in terms of how
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expensive that really is.
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SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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SPEAKER_03: John, you mentioned Shadow Drops.
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SPEAKER_03: It isn't the first time Bethesda's done this.
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SPEAKER_03: They did it with HiFi Rush and it was, although HiFi Rush wasn't a
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SPEAKER_03: In the end, a big success outside of Game Pass.
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It did have a big launch because they announced that I believe
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in 2023 during an
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SPEAKER_03: Xbox Developer Direct and they had like two million people rush in.
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SPEAKER_03: I think it was two million very, very quickly.
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SPEAKER_03: So they had a decent launch for what was quite a niche title.
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They've adopted a similar approach here with a more established brand,
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which is
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SPEAKER_03: It doesn't surprise me,
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SPEAKER_03: this,
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SPEAKER_03: actually,
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SPEAKER_03: because if you think about the wider Microsoft world,
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SPEAKER_03: they launched Avowed,
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SPEAKER_03: and this is what Kat's going to tell me.
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SPEAKER_03: They're completely different, Chris.
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SPEAKER_03: Stop comparing Avowed and Elder Scrolls.
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SPEAKER_03: But they launched Avowed a couple of months ago.
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You didn't really want those two PR and marketing campaigns on
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top of each other.
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SPEAKER_03: That would have been a problem.
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I'm not saying that's a reason why they shadow dropped it,
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but I'm sure it's a...
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SPEAKER_03: I'm sure it was a consideration.
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SPEAKER_03: It avoids the sort of overlap there.
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SPEAKER_03: Shadow drops can work very effectively,
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SPEAKER_03: not just with new IP like Hi-Fi Rush or Apex Legends,
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SPEAKER_03: but also Metroid Prime Remastered was a shadow drop,
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SPEAKER_03: if you remember,
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SPEAKER_03: also back in 2023,
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SPEAKER_03: where they,
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SPEAKER_03: and Nintendo announced,
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SPEAKER_03: again,
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SPEAKER_03: all like Oblivion,
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SPEAKER_03: we knew it was coming.
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SPEAKER_03: They announced it and then released it pretty much immediately,
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SPEAKER_03: and that was a huge success for Nintendo.
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SPEAKER_03: In fact, at the time, a Nintendo executive, I might say,
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actually wondered if the Metroid Prime Remastered Shadow Drop
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had impacted
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SPEAKER_03: pre-orders for Tears of the Kingdom that also went live that day.
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SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it can work very effectively, this stuff.
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And in fact,
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we've just seen a RuneScape Shadow Drop as well that happened
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this month.
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SPEAKER_03: So these things do work.
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SPEAKER_03: What surprised me a little bit was the fact they've decided to do it
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SPEAKER_03: In the same week,
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SPEAKER_03: Claire,
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SPEAKER_03: Expedition 33,
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SPEAKER_03: I always get the name of it wrong,
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SPEAKER_03: comes out the exact same when it's a big Game Pass title.
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SPEAKER_03: Microsoft's been pushing that quite hard.
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SPEAKER_03: It's got some good reviews.
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I don't know if you played it,
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Cat,
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but it seems to have done pretty well.
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SPEAKER_03: And then they've dropped an Oblivion Elder Scrolls remake remaster.
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SPEAKER_03: I don't know the difference anymore.
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SPEAKER_03: on top of the games.
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SPEAKER_03: That's the bit that surprises me.
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SPEAKER_03: There's also Doom out in a couple of weeks,
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SPEAKER_03: which I know is slightly different,
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SPEAKER_03: but it's a Bethesda title as well.
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I'm sure there are nuances and reasons for it,
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but I can't quite work it out.
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Maybe it's a contract or something,
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but it seems odd to have launched it this week.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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I think Xbox has had some interesting times trying to set its
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release schedule in general.
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SPEAKER_00: You think back to the release of Avowed,
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SPEAKER_00: which was originally supposed to be coming out last fall,
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SPEAKER_00: and then got shifted over and ended up coming out in February instead,
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which ended up being right in the teeth of all the games that
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it was trying to avoid.
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SPEAKER_00: And I get the impression,
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SPEAKER_00: and this is not confirmed,
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but I get a feeling that there's a little bit of a left hand
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not knowing what the
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SPEAKER_00: right hand is doing kind of situation.
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SPEAKER_00: So you have Bethesda,
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SPEAKER_00: which has a lot of independence within the Xbox Studio system,
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SPEAKER_00: deciding,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
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SPEAKER_00: now is the time to put out
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SPEAKER_00: Oblivion,
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SPEAKER_00: this works well within our particular schedule,
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SPEAKER_00: though,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: Doom the Dark Ages is within their portfolio as well.
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SPEAKER_00: So one, two punch, perhaps?
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SPEAKER_00: I think the Shadow Drop device worked really well in this instance.
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I think that if it had been in,
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say,
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a stream,
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it would have gotten some attention.
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But I think in this case,
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it ended up kind of dominating the news cycle for
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SPEAKER_00: its particular day,
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I saw so much coverage around it because it was the thing that
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was happening,
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SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
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So I think maybe other publishers might take note when a
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remaster of this sort that
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they want to release is coming around and they want to give it
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that little extra
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SPEAKER_00: push that helps it keep it above the rest of the pack.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think it being a remaster lends itself to this as well.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, Chris, you made the comparison to Metroid.
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Like,
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if they did a full ball marketing campaign for this,
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what would they say?
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SPEAKER_02: You know, it's Oblivion, here it is.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, I feel like unless they've...
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made a lot of effort adding new features or really adding new
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content or something.
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SPEAKER_02: It's not like a big campaign would have added a great deal anyway.
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SPEAKER_02: And it means that it's a big drop, it's a big RPG.
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SPEAKER_02: As Kat says, it was hugely popular.
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It's been really well received in what is otherwise a
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relatively quiet period.
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SPEAKER_02: That's something that kind of keeps there.
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SPEAKER_02: keep the fans going before, you know, the big sort of summer games rush.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think for,
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SPEAKER_02: certainly for remakes,
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then I feel like it's probably more sensible to do the shadow
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drop thing because
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SPEAKER_02: the community's there,
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SPEAKER_02: the expectations are there,
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SPEAKER_02: the features are well understood.
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SPEAKER_02: It's just, let them at it.
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SPEAKER_00: Lots of leaks, too.
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SPEAKER_00: I feel quite bad for the Expedition 33 team because,
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SPEAKER_00: as Chris was mentioning,
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SPEAKER_00: they've been getting a big push from Xbox.
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SPEAKER_00: And now here they are.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they're going to get overshadowed.
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SPEAKER_00: I think Expedition 33 and Oblivion have...
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SPEAKER_00: Somewhat different audiences, actually.
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If you're not familiar with Expedition 33,
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it's a...
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How would I describe it?
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SPEAKER_00: Final Fantasy by way of France in Unreal Engine 5.
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SPEAKER_00: It's quite a looker.
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SPEAKER_00: It got a lot of attention when it came around during Summer Game Fest,
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SPEAKER_00: but it is very much in the Japanese tradition of RPGs,
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SPEAKER_00: where,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: Oblivion...
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SPEAKER_00: Elder Scrolls is one of the examples of the PC form of RPGs.
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SPEAKER_00: So they might be satisfying somewhat different groups.
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And happily,
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Expedition 33 has been getting very strong reviews from what I
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was able to see.
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SPEAKER_00: A lot of 9s and 10s.
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And if anything,
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Expedition 33 may end up being a little bit of a slow burn,
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as it were.
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that maybe it starts to pop up during awards season if it is
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indeed that good.
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SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and they didn't even sign a movie deal on it.
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SPEAKER_03: They're certainly trying to push it.
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But I think when it comes to RPG fans,
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there's a clear distinction between these two games.
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But obviously,
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you look at it from maybe a slightly more mainstream perspective.
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SPEAKER_03: They're all big fantasy, epic-looking titles.
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SPEAKER_03: But you're right about that.
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SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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SPEAKER_03: John,
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SPEAKER_03: when you see a big RPG like Oblivion getting shadow docked,
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SPEAKER_03: does your old editorial director instincts kick in?
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SPEAKER_03: Do you start commissioning all the guys?
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I was reading around today and there's an awful lot of freshly
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updated Oblivion
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SPEAKER_02: guides and crafting tips and everything like that.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know to what extent people knew that was happening,
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but certainly all the leaks would definitely have helped from a
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content strategy
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SPEAKER_02: perspective to make sure everybody was good and focused on that,
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SPEAKER_02: knowing that that's a...
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SPEAKER_02: something to focus on.
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SPEAKER_02: Just from a general editorial point of view,
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big RPGs are invariably huge traffic drivers because they need
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a lot of explaining.
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There's a lot of tips,
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there's a lot of features,
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there's a lot of guide potential.
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SPEAKER_02: So gladdens my heart to see two come along at once.
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SPEAKER_00: Interesting release overall because,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: we're all still waiting on The Elder Scrolls VI,
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SPEAKER_00: which I believe was announced seven years ago now.
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SPEAKER_00: Was it?
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SPEAKER_00: In terms of The Elder Scrolls as a series,
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SPEAKER_00: Oblivion definitely has its fans and it has a strong legacy.
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as one of the examples of an RPG that brought PC RPGs as we
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know them onto console.
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SPEAKER_00: So Oblivion, of course, came out in early 2006.
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SPEAKER_00: It was a big Xbox 360 game.
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SPEAKER_00: At the time, John T., you probably remember it very well.
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SPEAKER_00: I was...
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: I was just out of college.
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SPEAKER_00: I was not in the games media at that time.
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SPEAKER_00: But it was, for many people, their first taste of The Elder Scrolls.
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SPEAKER_00: And then Skyrim,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: came out and really pushed that series truly,
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SPEAKER_00: truly,
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SPEAKER_00: truly into the mainstream.
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SPEAKER_00: So in many ways,
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Oblivion is a little bit of a tweener because Morrowind is the
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fan favorite,
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SPEAKER_00: the cult favorite,
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SPEAKER_00: whereas Skyrim is the mainstream one.
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SPEAKER_00: But...
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe because Oblivion is coming out now,
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SPEAKER_00: it might not be as well known to a lot of people,
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SPEAKER_00: so it might feel a bit more fresh.
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SPEAKER_00: Just out of curiosity,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: did all of you see the stories about Skyblivion,
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SPEAKER_00: the mod that had been in development,
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SPEAKER_00: that suddenly they were like,
12:38
SPEAKER_00: oh,
12:38
SPEAKER_00: great,
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SPEAKER_00: a full official release just came out.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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SPEAKER_03: I think the same thing happened with Metroid Prime as well, didn't it?
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SPEAKER_03: Wasn't there a remaster of that?
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SPEAKER_02: I saw the Sky Bolivian folks,
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SPEAKER_02: they put out a nice social post going,
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SPEAKER_02: oh well,
12:57
SPEAKER_02: we wish them all the best,
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SPEAKER_02: they've given us all copies of the remaster.
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SPEAKER_03: I'll make up for those hundreds of hours of work they've put in.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think they're putting a brave face on it.
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SPEAKER_02: But yes, that must be a bit of a bit of a kick in the teeth.
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SPEAKER_02: But also, I mean, I had really kind of put the numbers together.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's like 2006.
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SPEAKER_02: Gosh, that was a long time ago.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: I say as somebody who reviewed that, she came out.
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SPEAKER_02: But that was, you know, getting on for 20 years ago.
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So there's going to be a huge chunk of the gaming audience
13:28
who's just never really
13:30
SPEAKER_02: played with it or engaged with it.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: There's also going to be,
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SPEAKER_03: I'd imagine,
13:33
SPEAKER_03: a lot of the modern Elder Scrolls fans today,
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SPEAKER_03: ones that engage with the franchise regularly,
13:37
SPEAKER_03: are MMO players,
13:39
SPEAKER_03: right?
13:39
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
13:39
I have a very different perception of that franchise than I
13:41
think perhaps a lot of
13:42
SPEAKER_03: the younger people that might be into it.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: Well,
13:45
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to switch on to our main topic,
13:46
SPEAKER_03: because we did touch upon Jon's past,
13:48
SPEAKER_03: and also Kat's past there,
13:50
SPEAKER_03: in the editorial,
13:50
SPEAKER_03: because I have some data around what's going on in the games media.
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SPEAKER_03: Out of the top 135 video game websites,
13:57
they published collectively 635,000 articles during the first
14:03
quarter of this year,
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SPEAKER_03: which sounds like a lot,
14:04
SPEAKER_03: but it's actually a 13% drop,
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nearly actually about almost exactly 100,000 article drop
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compared with the same
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SPEAKER_03: period in 2024.
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A lot of that is actually guides websites who have perhaps been
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hit by recent Google changes.
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SPEAKER_03: But there's also significant drops for IGN.
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SPEAKER_03: According to this,
14:24
SPEAKER_03: IGN's article counts down by 250%,
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although I imagine there's some anomalies going on there
14:29
because that's quite a big drop.
14:30
SPEAKER_03: But GameSpot's also down heavily,
14:32
SPEAKER_03: Famitsu's down heavily,
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SPEAKER_03: Eurogame's down by a big number as well.
14:36
There's probably a few reasons for this,
14:37
but one of the reasons for this is also quite apparent.
14:39
This is all data from Press Engine,
14:40
by the way,
14:40
who are a PR tools service provider.
14:43
SPEAKER_03: They've also shown that they've seen a drop of 2,902 press contacts.
14:49
So they've had 2,902 press contacts disappear from their
14:53
database over the last two years.
14:54
SPEAKER_03: Now,
14:55
SPEAKER_03: those press contacts could be all sorts of people,
14:57
SPEAKER_03: but it will include amateur journalists and part time writers,
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SPEAKER_03: freelance journalists as well.
15:02
But obviously there is a big drop in the number of people
15:04
writing about video games today.
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SPEAKER_03: And of course,
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then there's been redundancies that have hit almost all major
15:09
games media outlets.
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SPEAKER_03: John, we've all been in these meetings.
15:15
SPEAKER_03: I'm a business journalist.
15:16
I'm often sit in these meetings and I hear about the challenges
15:18
in the consumer
15:19
SPEAKER_03: space or the things that you're trying to do.
15:21
SPEAKER_03: And I'm often with open-eyed fascination about what's going on.
15:24
SPEAKER_03: How does it all work?
15:25
SPEAKER_03: But call me naive,
15:26
but dropping journalists and therefore reducing the number of
15:28
articles being written,
15:30
SPEAKER_03: that's going to result in less money.
15:32
SPEAKER_03: Aren't we in a downward spiral here?
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Call it possibly.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
15:39
I'm not blessed with particular insight into the organization
15:43
that have been kind
15:44
SPEAKER_02: of reducing output.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: But broadly speaking,
15:46
SPEAKER_02: yes,
15:46
SPEAKER_02: if you produce less,
15:47
SPEAKER_02: then that's going to reach a smaller audience and that's going to have a
15:50
SPEAKER_02: commensurate impact on revenue.
15:52
My expectation would be that it's driven by revenue dropping
15:56
away and by audience dropping away.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: I could talk for a very long time about this,
16:01
SPEAKER_02: about the bigger picture kind of challenges,
16:04
SPEAKER_02: but I think the short version is that in media,
16:07
SPEAKER_02: not just games media,
16:08
SPEAKER_02: for the last 10,
16:09
SPEAKER_02: 20 years,
16:09
the focus has been very much on scale and you grew your
16:12
business by reaching more people.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: And there was a big push in games media,
16:16
particularly into guide content and things that were going to
16:20
attract a lot of
16:20
SPEAKER_02: search traffic.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: And that is quite a challenging place to be.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Lots of people did it.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Lots of mainstream brands have done it.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: So that was always an incredibly competitive space.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: And now Google has made some big changes.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: I know a lot of smaller sites have really suffered from that.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: There's been a refocusing on the very biggest sites.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: The ad revenue has been a bit
16:45
SPEAKER_02: a bit more dicey.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Games media,
16:47
SPEAKER_02: much like the games industry,
16:49
had a sort of big sugar rush through COVID because lots of
16:51
people were indoors,
16:52
SPEAKER_02: all the audience figures went up.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: And,
16:54
SPEAKER_02: you know,
16:54
SPEAKER_02: money was cheap,
16:55
SPEAKER_02: interest rates were low,
16:56
so there was a lot of consolidation in the kind of sort of
16:59
small and mid-range end
17:00
SPEAKER_02: of the market.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: And now the audiences have dropped a little bit.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: There's been all the, you know,
17:04
or everything we've heard on the games business and elsewhere
17:07
about this kind of
17:08
SPEAKER_02: consolidation into like a smaller number of games.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: And I think overall, there's just been a drop in audience figures.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: My suspicion is there's been a drop in audience figures.
17:18
And I think there's a bunch of businesses,
17:20
particularly on the margins,
17:21
who didn't have
17:23
particularly strong margins themselves that have been kind of
17:26
cutting back.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: And I think the bigger companies have also been facing that.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: My suspicion is that traffic hasn't been wonderful.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: Advertising revenue hasn't been wonderful.
17:33
So the most expensive thing on the balance sheet is always
17:37
going to be people.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: So it's going to be what they cut and try and make that up.
17:43
I think it's worth pointing out that last year we had Palworld
17:47
in January,
17:49
SPEAKER_00: and that was followed by Helldivers 2.
17:52
And those were two games that were very popular and bolstered a
17:58
lot of search traffic.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: And interestingly enough,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: I look at the first half of this year,
18:05
SPEAKER_00: and there have been plenty of releases.
18:07
Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 comes to mind as a really strong one
18:13
back in February.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: But...
18:16
SPEAKER_00: Without having actual access to the traffic numbers,
18:19
I'm wondering whether they were able to kind of match up to
18:23
what was coming out
18:24
SPEAKER_00: from last year.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: So that might have had a little bit of an impact.
18:28
I think John did a great job of breaking down what's been
18:32
happening in the last few
18:34
SPEAKER_00: years in the games media.
18:38
Some of it also is that if you look at sectors outside of the
18:44
guides area,
18:44
SPEAKER_00: they haven't been seeing a huge amount of investment.
18:48
So what you're seeing is people who are leaving the press,
18:52
the games press,
18:53
because
18:54
SPEAKER_00: They're feeling burned out.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: They want to make more money or whatever, making the leap.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And there aren't necessarily people to replace them.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: The pipeline is not there in the way that it used to be.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think that can end up impacting output as well.
19:14
SPEAKER_03: Obviously,
19:14
SPEAKER_03: from an industry point of view,
19:15
what I'm worried about here is what I've heard thrown about is
19:19
terms like,
19:20
SPEAKER_03: well,
19:20
SPEAKER_03: we moneyball it now.
19:21
SPEAKER_03: We're all about the bigger games.
19:22
SPEAKER_03: We focus in on those.
19:23
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
19:24
SPEAKER_03: that was kind of the case for years,
19:25
SPEAKER_03: but it seems to become increasingly the case where,
19:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:28
SPEAKER_03: if we focus in on those big titles,
19:30
SPEAKER_03: we can output fewer games.
19:32
SPEAKER_03: articles,
19:32
SPEAKER_03: but,
19:33
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:33
SPEAKER_03: produce still decent traffic and generate significant revenue that way,
19:38
SPEAKER_03: which is fine from a media business point of view.
19:40
SPEAKER_03: I don't know from an industry point of view,
19:42
SPEAKER_03: which I know is not the media's problem this,
19:44
SPEAKER_03: but there's this big discoverability crisis in video games.
19:47
SPEAKER_03: There's more games.
19:47
SPEAKER_03: We talk about there being fewer games,
19:49
SPEAKER_03: certainly the type of things that generate a lot of media traffic,
19:51
SPEAKER_03: definitely more games than ever.
19:54
SPEAKER_03: And from an industry point of view,
19:55
SPEAKER_03: the fact that there are fewer journalists,
19:57
SPEAKER_03: I know that influencers are out there,
19:58
SPEAKER_03: it's a bit more fragmented,
19:59
SPEAKER_03: that market,
20:00
SPEAKER_03: but
20:01
SPEAKER_03: with fewer journalists there,
20:03
SPEAKER_03: they're all sort of maybe not under pressure,
20:05
but they sort of know that they've got goals to hit and they
20:07
know the big games
20:08
SPEAKER_03: will deliver those goals.
20:11
SPEAKER_03: Then that makes it perhaps harder to,
20:13
SPEAKER_03: well,
20:13
SPEAKER_03: it makes it harder to potentially write about this stuff,
20:16
SPEAKER_03: which is not a great time for that to be going on as well.
20:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
20:21
SPEAKER_03: Kat,
20:21
SPEAKER_03: actually,
20:22
SPEAKER_03: you're on the news side of the last few years,
20:24
SPEAKER_03: so it's not something that you're too much experience with,
20:26
SPEAKER_03: but did you find it
20:28
Did you find there was a challenge in trying to balance
20:31
covering stuff that you
20:33
SPEAKER_03: wanted to cover,
20:35
but then also having to cover the stuff that was going to
20:38
deliver the best performance?
20:39
SPEAKER_03: Was that something you had to balance?
20:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes and no.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: of course,
20:45
SPEAKER_00: as a journalist,
20:45
you want to go for whatever happens to be newsworthy and what
20:49
the biggest games are
20:50
SPEAKER_00: the ones that are newsworthy.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: The funny thing is the money balling it as you're describing it,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: focusing on the big releases and trying to get the best possible traffic.
21:02
So a little bit of a red ocean aspect to it because everybody
21:06
is going for those releases.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: And a site like,
21:09
SPEAKER_00: well,
21:10
probably IGN is going to end up dominating a lot of the search
21:14
engine results or Polygon,
21:16
SPEAKER_00: for example.
21:17
And it's really tough,
21:19
especially if you are just focused entirely on gaming SEO.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Our friend Alex Donaldson,
21:24
SPEAKER_00: who runs RPG site,
21:26
has found actually a lot of success by kind of focusing on the
21:30
more boutique games,
21:31
SPEAKER_00: the games that I would describe as maybe a little more blue ocean,
21:35
putting out very strong guides for Suikoden 1 and 2 HD Remaster,
21:40
which nobody is covering.
21:42
But because they have authority and because they are really
21:48
well-done guides,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: those are the ones that are popping up.
21:51
And for the handful of people who are actually going out and
21:54
searching for this game,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: that's where they end up going.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: And they end up staying on the site for quite a long time.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's a tough pitch for a site like IGN,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: which is necessarily about scale,
22:10
but it's funny because you look at the way that Google has been
22:13
shifting in recent years,
22:16
it is kind of moving away from the big players in many ways and
22:20
giving more of an
22:21
SPEAKER_00: advantage to these boutique expertise sites.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: I think it's kind of a tough challenge,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: actually,
22:28
SPEAKER_00: especially for the much larger games media sites.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: They're caught in a little bit of a vice,
22:34
SPEAKER_00: it almost feels like,
22:36
SPEAKER_00: where they're trying to scale up,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: they're trying to grow year on year,
22:40
SPEAKER_00: but they're trying to focus on the big games,
22:42
SPEAKER_00: but Google's prioritizing other things.
22:46
SPEAKER_03: If Google starts,
22:47
SPEAKER_03: you know,
22:47
you start being able to get those answers to the questions
22:49
you're asking directly
22:50
SPEAKER_03: on Google through its AI.
22:52
I spoke to the fandom yesterday and said not seeing any
22:55
particularly negatives at
22:56
SPEAKER_03: the moment of that area,
22:57
SPEAKER_03: but expect they might do.
22:59
SPEAKER_03: And that's,
22:59
I know that's a popular area of concern at the moment on social
23:03
media and people
23:04
SPEAKER_03: chatting about it.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
23:06
SPEAKER_02: there was some data that came out last week from one of the SEO firms,
23:10
SPEAKER_02: Ahrefs,
23:10
SPEAKER_02: that said,
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Broadly speaking,
23:12
SPEAKER_02: if there is one of those AI summaries on the Google search page,
23:16
SPEAKER_02: that results in like a 34% drop,
23:18
SPEAKER_02: I think,
23:18
SPEAKER_02: in traffic to the top listed article.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: And even if those summaries do cite a source,
23:24
it's relatively rare people click through to it because they've
23:26
got the information.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: Why would they go there?
23:30
SPEAKER_02: I completely agree with Kat.
23:32
I think it's a very difficult place to be for larger sites who
23:38
have public owners.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: They have quarterly targets.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: They have to show growth.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: And to use your phrase,
23:46
SPEAKER_02: Chris,
23:47
the money boiling approach is the closest thing you have to a
23:51
reliable way to do that.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: But it's extremely competitive.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: The larger sites do increasingly take it all.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: There are increasingly
23:59
non-games media sites that will also go after that stuff
24:02
because gaming guides are
24:03
a brand safe way to prop up your traffic even if you're like a
24:06
TV listings magazine
24:08
SPEAKER_02: or a national newspaper.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: We've seen those people kind of come in and move into that space.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: And the curation work,
24:13
SPEAKER_02: which is incredibly important,
24:15
SPEAKER_02: and that was always,
24:16
SPEAKER_02: my take was always,
24:17
SPEAKER_02: well,
24:18
SPEAKER_02: it was that kind of like eating your greens kind of thing.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: From an editorial strategy perspective is that,
24:22
SPEAKER_02: well,
24:23
SPEAKER_02: the guides will drive,
24:24
SPEAKER_02: deliver the scale,
24:25
SPEAKER_02: but
24:25
SPEAKER_02: the curation and highlighting new games,
24:31
SPEAKER_02: doing interviews and things like that,
24:32
SPEAKER_02: those have never done any traffic.
24:34
Even on the sites that have very much built a brand around that
24:38
and have very noisy
24:40
SPEAKER_02: commenters demanding new indie games and that kind of stuff.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: they don't see traffic to those things when they cover them, ever.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: It's never, ever been a traffic source.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: It's always been a small audience that really values it.
24:54
The small audience includes the developers and the publishers
24:56
and the people
24:57
SPEAKER_02: actually making the games as well because
25:00
As you say,
25:00
Chris,
25:00
the media serves a necessary purpose for highlighting those things.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: And I think to Kat's example of RPG site and their focus,
25:09
I do think my personal prediction for games media and media in
25:13
general is that
25:14
there is going to be this bifurcation between absolute heavies
25:18
who can go for the
25:19
money ball thing and absolutely dominate the Oblivion remaster
25:24
or the new Elder
25:25
SPEAKER_02: Scrolls whenever that comes out.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: Everybody else,
25:28
the only real opportunity I see existing is going to be
25:32
narrowing the focus and
25:34
SPEAKER_02: covering one niche very,
25:36
very well and having a small dedicated audience and bluntly
25:42
being able to monetize
25:43
that audience in a way that doesn't really rely on programmatic advertising.
25:46
So that's more subscriptions and Patreon and doing those sort
25:50
of showcase events
25:51
SPEAKER_02: where the people pay to be part of it,
25:54
SPEAKER_02: that kind of thing.
25:55
That is what I was going to bring up,
25:56
because I actually subscribe to two magazines.
25:58
SPEAKER_03: I subscribe to Doctor Who magazine and Retro Gamer.
26:01
SPEAKER_03: And Doctor Who magazine,
26:02
SPEAKER_03: I subscribe to that because there's always an article in there like,
26:05
here's the second unit director of a 1978 episode of Doctor Who interview.
26:10
And there's about 300 people interested in that article,
26:13
and I'm one of them.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: And I will pay the six pounds,
26:15
SPEAKER_03: seven pounds,
26:16
SPEAKER_03: however much that magazine cost me in order to read that article.
26:19
And so when you go specialist,
26:21
you go niche,
26:22
although the audience might be smaller,
26:24
SPEAKER_03: you might find a more willing audience to pay for it.
26:27
SPEAKER_03: That's the biggest issue.
26:28
I always think media generally and has been for the last 20
26:30
years that we don't pay
26:31
SPEAKER_03: for the media.
26:32
And that's why we end up with articles like one thing about the
26:35
money balling it is
26:35
SPEAKER_03: when you see sites that go,
26:37
fans are all saying the same thing about the latest Mario Kart
26:40
trailer or they've
26:41
SPEAKER_03: got the same six complaints about the same about.
26:43
SPEAKER_03: Oh, God, it's just such rubbish.
26:46
SPEAKER_03: And it's like, and it must be.
26:48
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: I'm glad I don't have to write that stuff.
26:50
SPEAKER_03: You know,
26:51
SPEAKER_03: I actually say to the people that did the time extension website,
26:53
SPEAKER_03: which is a website I go on quite a lot.
26:55
SPEAKER_03: I pay for that.
26:56
SPEAKER_03: You know, I'd give you money for that.
26:57
You know,
26:57
if you you should never base an entire business strategy on
27:00
what I would do.
27:01
But it's certainly a.
27:03
On that note,
27:04
subscribe to Axe the Blog on an independent RPG podcast.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: No, I totally agree.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: The independent media, I think, is pretty vibrant.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: I personally subscribe to several websites.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: I subscribe to Defector,
27:19
which is an American website that subscription-based that is
27:24
based on the former
27:25
SPEAKER_00: people who ran Deadspin.
27:27
I subscribe to 404 Media,
27:30
which does fantastic,
27:31
fantastic reporting in the tech space.
27:34
And there are other independent outlets that are starting to
27:37
spring up here.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: In the game space, I mean, there's, of course, your newsletter, Chris.
27:43
There's Steven Totillo's The Game File,
27:46
which is regularly really,
27:48
really good.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Several others as well, and of course, Aftermath.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's something more joyful,
27:56
SPEAKER_00: I think,
27:56
SPEAKER_00: to serving an audience,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: a dedicated audience.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: who are there to spend money on good reporting and good games coverage.
28:07
And so it's not quite the race to the bottom with all due
28:10
respect to like my
28:12
SPEAKER_00: colleagues in the mainstream media who are kind of doing their best.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: It feels more like, it feels more joyful I think to be in that space.
28:21
SPEAKER_03: Andy Robinson was telling me,
28:23
SPEAKER_03: who runs VGC,
28:24
that when they open their Patreon and the stuff they do on
28:26
their Patreon is the
28:27
stuff that his team enjoy doing the most because it's for an
28:31
audience that's paying.
28:32
SPEAKER_03: It's for the fans and there's something about that.
28:36
SPEAKER_03: It's a smaller audience, but it's one that matters more.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: You're playing to your strengths more.
28:41
You're bringing out your voice and your personality and people
28:45
respond to that.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: It's not as calculated, I think.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And it's also,
28:50
SPEAKER_02: to cite another looming boogeyman that's coming for media at the moment,
28:56
SPEAKER_02: is AI just in generally.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: AI can do a seemingly half-decent job of kind of basic factual summary.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: There are all sorts of problems with the delivery,
29:06
SPEAKER_02: but there are some things,
29:07
SPEAKER_02: like kind of baseline financial reporting,
29:09
SPEAKER_02: things they can do equally as well as...
29:12
SPEAKER_02: as a human,
29:12
SPEAKER_02: because if you just take an earnings report and pull out the details,
29:14
SPEAKER_02: put some sentences in it,
29:15
SPEAKER_02: it can do that.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: There's a sort of genuine risk,
29:18
SPEAKER_02: I think,
29:18
that there's a lot of kind of quite perfunctory coverage is
29:22
just going to get done
29:23
SPEAKER_02: by AI in future.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: And again,
29:25
that's just going to eat away at the audience and the business
29:29
model for the sites
29:30
SPEAKER_02: that previously used to do that.
29:32
SPEAKER_02: Whereas
29:33
cat's point like if you have a um a very distinct personality
29:36
of a very distinct
29:37
voice uh you'll you'll have an audience that that cherishes
29:40
that then you are as
29:41
much as is possible you are insulated from that and i think the
29:45
sites that or the
29:46
brands that will endure i don't work with them anymore but i
29:49
used to cite rock
29:49
paper shotgun like rock paper shotgun has a very distinct voice
29:52
and a very distinct
29:53
outlook and it's very well established and it has and it has a
29:56
community that
29:56
SPEAKER_02: expects that
29:58
SPEAKER_02: And I can see that like kind of like enduring for a very long time.
30:03
Whereas lots of the sites that kind of popped up in the last 10
30:06
years that were
30:06
SPEAKER_02: very much focused on,
30:09
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:09
SPEAKER_02: chasing Google traffic and,
30:11
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:11
SPEAKER_02: word or clues and that kind of thing,
30:14
they never justifiably never really had the opportunity to kind
30:18
of build a voice themselves.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: And then once Google chokes that off,
30:22
SPEAKER_02: then they're kind of left high and dry.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: And this follows all the other sources of traffic.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: You know,
30:27
SPEAKER_02: 15 years ago,
30:28
you could run a successful media business on traffic you got
30:31
from Facebook or
30:31
SPEAKER_02: social media.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: And that's gone away.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: All these platforms are the intermediary in media now.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: And increasingly, they are not interested in referring users away.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: They want to keep it all for themselves.
30:46
So independent media is the future,
30:48
says a number of independent media creators.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's like the big brands will endure.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: Like IGN, I don't see IGNs going anywhere.
30:59
And you look at Polygon,
31:02
which is relatively young by GamesMedia standards,
31:05
right?
31:05
SPEAKER_02: I think it was the last big site to launch.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: Those sites have a huge footprint there.
31:13
they already have those audiences they can hold on to them i
31:16
think gaining um a big
31:19
audience and making money from it um for everybody else is i
31:24
would say harder than
31:25
it's ever been and i think there will be more smaller success
31:29
stories that set out
31:30
to focus on a smaller section and reach a smaller audience but
31:35
um do well by them
31:38
SPEAKER_00: So I took over US Gamer in 2017,
31:41
and I find myself thinking back to what the landscape was in
31:46
the media at that time.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: This year,
31:49
SPEAKER_00: as the Switch 2 is coming out,
31:51
SPEAKER_00: and if you compare it to 2017,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: 2017,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: I think Gamer Network was really,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: really strong,
31:58
SPEAKER_00: actually.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Eurogamer was really continuing to move up.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: a lot, had a really incredible team behind it.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Waypoint had basically just started.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: It was getting a large investment from Vice Games.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: I think Fanbyte came along a couple years later.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: And there was this willingness to put money into these large sites.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I think Polygon was considerably larger at that time as well.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: And you kind of look back to...
32:30
SPEAKER_00: You look at it now,
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Waypoint is long gone,
32:33
SPEAKER_00: Fanbyte is long gone,
32:35
SPEAKER_00: GameSpot has gone through multiple ownership.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: and has shrunk considerably.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: It feels like IGN is...
32:44
SPEAKER_00: IGN and Future,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
32:46
SPEAKER_00: are the only really major players in the,
32:49
SPEAKER_00: how would I describe,
32:49
SPEAKER_00: the free-to-play sites.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's a little smart, actually.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: Just to agree,
32:56
SPEAKER_02: and even way back when I started,
32:59
SPEAKER_02: which was very early 2000s,
33:00
SPEAKER_02: there were still a zillion smaller sites.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean, even Eurogamer was a small site.
33:07
Eurogamer was the little site that kind of blossomed and left
33:13
most of the other ones behind it.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: That was when,
33:20
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
33:21
SPEAKER_02: Chris,
33:21
SPEAKER_02: when it was possible to say,
33:23
SPEAKER_02: right,
33:23
SPEAKER_02: well,
33:24
our business model is we're going to give everything away free
33:25
on the internet.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: We're going to monetize it through advertising.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: And over the course of the subsequent sort of 20 or so years,
33:32
SPEAKER_02: that's just become increasingly less plausible as a business model.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't think anybody's going to invest in a conventional media business.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Or,
33:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
33:42
in a media business that doesn't have some way of monetizing
33:45
their audience that
33:46
SPEAKER_02: isn't just through scale and then advertising.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: It's all about subscriptions and Patreon and increasingly B2B.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: So obviously the games business.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: Chris, you've had a very strong start after the first month.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: You've been off to an absolute fire.
34:00
And there's been huge success in the media business has been
34:04
really rough for as
34:05
SPEAKER_02: long as I've been in it.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: But it's been real bad over the last sort of five years.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: But the bright spot has been B2B because again,
34:13
SPEAKER_02: because B2B is fundamentally narrow in its focus,
34:16
SPEAKER_02: you're talking to an industry,
34:18
you're talking to a specific group within that industry and you
34:20
can laser focus on
34:22
SPEAKER_02: those people.
34:23
You say that,
34:23
but as soon as the jobs advertising disappeared,
34:25
it got really tough.
34:27
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, Games in Short Biz is what happened there.
34:30
SPEAKER_03: You've just seen GamesBeat spin out as an independent outfit,
34:34
and you have to imagine that if VentureBeat was happy with the
34:37
way that was going,
34:38
SPEAKER_03: they wouldn't have allowed that to happen.
34:40
I think it's great that we've all been able,
34:42
you know,
34:42
Stephen Thillow is sort of B2B,
34:44
sort of.
34:46
SPEAKER_03: And Simon Carlos over at GameDiscovers did an amazing job there.
34:49
But obviously they've gone even niche increasingly into those
34:53
sort of spells and
34:54
SPEAKER_03: it's great as an independent level.
34:56
SPEAKER_03: It's definitely this space that I'm in does allow for a little bit more
35:01
SPEAKER_03: experimentation in terms of monetization.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: because you are talking to a different audience,
35:05
an audience that actually a lot of the time can just write off
35:08
their subscription
35:08
SPEAKER_03: to something as a work expense,
35:10
SPEAKER_03: right?
35:10
SPEAKER_03: So it's a little different.
35:13
SPEAKER_03: But I'm going to quickly,
35:14
SPEAKER_03: you know,
35:14
I'm conscious of the time and I do have a couple of smaller
35:16
stories to sort of get onto.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: I've been touching on the tariffs of pretty much every single
35:21
SPEAKER_03: episode of the game business,
35:23
we're starting to see some impact now of those tariffs on
35:26
companies coming out of China.
35:28
SPEAKER_03: So we saw a story that I've never heard of this company before,
35:30
SPEAKER_03: so I apologize if I get the name wrong.
35:32
SPEAKER_03: Ambernic, I think, has stopped shipping its retro handhelds to
35:37
um the us because of uh because they're made in china um and by
35:41
the way there's 125
35:43
plus potentially 20 tariff on on chinese goods and nintendo has
35:46
also raised the
35:47
price of some of its accessories um that's so they've gone back
35:50
on store with
35:51
pre-orders now for switch 2 in the us but they've had to raise
35:54
the price of the
35:54
accessories because that's they're made in countries like china
35:57
that have or china
35:58
because have a big impact on that i have a friend of mine i
36:01
won't name the company
36:02
SPEAKER_03: he makes figurines
36:04
SPEAKER_03: and they're made out of China,
36:05
SPEAKER_03: and I asked them how he's doing about the whole situation,
36:08
SPEAKER_03: and he says it's a case now of whether or not he just gives up.
36:11
SPEAKER_03: We talk a lot about the hardware,
36:12
SPEAKER_03: the consoles,
36:14
what those big companies are going to do and what's going to be
36:15
the impact there,
36:16
SPEAKER_03: and that has the broadest impact upon the whole games industry.
36:19
SPEAKER_03: But it's the sort of this side of the market,
36:22
SPEAKER_03: the accessories,
36:23
those goods that have managed to manufacture cheaply in China
36:26
and get them shipped
36:27
over to other countries that are basically facing closure over
36:32
this sort of thing.
36:33
SPEAKER_03: There was a comment from Donald Trump this morning.
36:35
I don't really know what he can take any comment now that comes
36:39
out of that as
36:40
SPEAKER_03: whether it's actually an indicator of what can happen,
36:42
SPEAKER_03: where he thinks that the big Chinese tariff will go down.
36:46
SPEAKER_03: But it's very hard to invest and predict.
36:49
based decisions on at the moment because of the uncertainty in
36:52
those places.
36:53
SPEAKER_03: But we are starting to see some impact on those tariffs.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
36:58
SPEAKER_02: I think I saw something like there's starting to see things to do with,
37:02
SPEAKER_02: I think,
37:02
SPEAKER_02: like DHL's inbound shipping.
37:04
They've said that they're no longer accepting things worth over $800,
37:08
I think.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: So that uncertainty is just going to percolate, isn't it?
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Businesses don't want to invest in those circumstances.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: And actually to briefly drag it back to media,
37:21
SPEAKER_02: that's going to be bad for the media business as well,
37:23
SPEAKER_02: because when companies are being nervous and they're cutting back,
37:27
SPEAKER_02: the marketing budget is always the first thing to go.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: So that's going to trickle down to media as well.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: Even before you get to things like if GTA 6 comes out this year,
37:36
SPEAKER_02: then nobody's going to advertise against that.
37:39
And Rockstar is not going to advertise with games media because
37:42
why would they?
37:42
SPEAKER_02: Everyone's going to buy it anyway.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: So there's lots of
37:46
SPEAKER_02: These are things that can be additionally bad for games media as well.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Already happened, right?
37:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, last year was survive till 25.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: And so many publishers were cutting back or going away entirely.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: And they weren't spending the ad dollars on websites.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: So even when they were doing okay in traffic,
38:09
they weren't getting the money that they needed in order to
38:13
make good on that traffic.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: So they were...
38:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a tough one.
38:19
The ad market is really rough at the moment and has been
38:23
consistently for a couple years now.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: But turning to the actual tariffs,
38:28
SPEAKER_00: well,
38:29
I'm the one who's here in the United States kind of with the
38:32
front row seat to a
38:34
SPEAKER_00: lot of what's been happening here.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: I think the chaos is...
38:39
SPEAKER_00: probably the most impactful aspect of it,
38:41
because it's just impossible to make any long-range plans
38:45
because the tariffs keep changing.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Every few days, we get a new announcement.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: The tariffs are going up here.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: The tariffs have been canceled here.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: There's been a 90-day pause on this.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: There have been exceptions granted to that.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: And you're right.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: It's more than the final product.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: It's impacting the supply chains considerably.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: The parts,
39:08
it's the parts that they can't get that are allowing them to
39:12
make the final product,
39:13
SPEAKER_00: which has been very rough on everybody,
39:17
SPEAKER_00: I think.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: The Nintendo Switch 2, I think,
39:22
SPEAKER_00: I think we were,
39:23
SPEAKER_00: at least a lot of us in the US,
39:24
when Nintendo announced that they were delaying the pre-orders
39:29
from April 9th to
39:31
SPEAKER_00: April 24th,
39:32
SPEAKER_00: which is tomorrow as of the recording of this podcast.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: I was expecting,
39:38
SPEAKER_00: I was kind of bracing it for it to jump to $500,
39:42
SPEAKER_00: something like higher than that.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: And instead, Nintendo seems to have taken the approach of
39:47
SPEAKER_00: We'll raise the price of some of the accessories by between $5 and $10,
39:52
and we'll keep the price of the base console where it is
39:56
because if you raise it
39:59
SPEAKER_00: any more,
40:00
you start encroaching into uncomfortably premium territory with
40:05
this device,
40:06
SPEAKER_00: which is not Nintendo's MO and historically has not been.
40:10
SPEAKER_03: No, I think Nintendo...
40:13
SPEAKER_03: manufactures a lot of its,
40:15
SPEAKER_03: well,
40:15
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it's a lot,
40:16
SPEAKER_03: I don't know the exact number,
40:17
SPEAKER_03: but a chunk of its US inventory in Vietnam,
40:20
SPEAKER_03: they moved manufacturing there.
40:23
SPEAKER_03: And obviously the pause on the tariffs,
40:26
SPEAKER_03: I think it's 46% in a tariff on Vietnam,
40:31
SPEAKER_03: which probably makes it a little bit easier.
40:32
SPEAKER_03: Also, the internet has shipped a bunch of units already.
40:35
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, but long term, if that tariff comes back,
40:38
on Vietnam and those sort of things that we may see encroaching
40:43
premium territory.
40:43
SPEAKER_03: But then I don't even know.
40:44
SPEAKER_03: I think you might have to reclassify premium territory in the U.S.
40:48
SPEAKER_03: in terms of what is it.
40:51
SPEAKER_03: And this is a problem actually for the industry.
40:52
SPEAKER_03: And I'm one of those people that
40:56
SPEAKER_03: We've talked about pricing a little bit on the show a few times now,
40:58
SPEAKER_03: but I didn't think,
41:00
SPEAKER_03: when I saw the price of the Switch 2,
41:02
SPEAKER_03: with Mario Kart,
41:04
SPEAKER_03: that bundle,
41:05
SPEAKER_03: I didn't think it was too horrific,
41:07
SPEAKER_03: but obviously a lot of people I've spoken to were,
41:10
SPEAKER_03: I didn't think it was horrific at all actually,
41:12
SPEAKER_03: I thought it was quite reasonable,
41:13
SPEAKER_03: but in an industry where
41:16
Everyone,
41:16
the industry's moved into trying to drive its average revenue
41:19
per user.
41:19
They're trying to get more money out of the people who are
41:22
buying games because the
41:23
SPEAKER_03: profit margins are quite tight for a lot of companies,
41:24
SPEAKER_03: oddly not Nintendo,
41:26
SPEAKER_03: but for a lot of companies.
41:27
SPEAKER_03: And so they're trying to sort that out and balance that out.
41:30
SPEAKER_03: But in doing that,
41:32
we are potentially limiting our ability to expand the audience
41:35
of video games.
41:36
SPEAKER_03: And that is where I always think there's a big conflict.
41:39
SPEAKER_03: We'll talk about this on the show in the future as well.
41:41
There's this conflict between how do we expand the audience of
41:44
video games?
41:45
How do we bring in new users to the games market whilst also
41:52
making sure that we're
41:53
SPEAKER_03: maintaining our margins?
41:54
And tariffs like this is just making that job already hard and
41:58
almost impossible
41:59
SPEAKER_03: job even harder.
41:59
SPEAKER_03: I think Mario, I played Mario Kart
42:04
SPEAKER_03: Mario Kart world.
42:05
SPEAKER_03: And I thought this was brilliant.
42:07
SPEAKER_03: This is amazing.
42:07
I think everyone should play this,
42:09
but they're not going to be able to afford it.
42:13
And I think that's how we bridge that gap is,
42:17
if we can,
42:18
I think is a conversation.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: I think audience tastes are changing in some ways.
42:25
I've seen segmentation data that shows that people who are
42:30
younger than 30,
42:30
SPEAKER_00: they're playing on mobile.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: They're playing free-to-play.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: They came up on Fortnite.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: They came up on Minecraft.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: And those are the games that they are turning to.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
42:42
there was that kind of stunning number from a few months ago
42:50
that showed just how
42:51
much playtime goes to the top 10 service games compared to a
42:56
lot of the other games.
42:58
And that contrasts a bit with the sort of renaissance that
43:01
you're seeing out of Steam.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: where it just seems like it breaks a new record every single month.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: It feels like so many people going and playing on PC.
43:12
But I wonder if we're going to see a situation where premium
43:16
console and premium PC experiences,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: like,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: Oblivion,
43:21
SPEAKER_00: start to become more boutique,
43:24
SPEAKER_00: become geared toward older audiences.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: You were already there.
43:29
You're talking about actual data from the likes of Ampere and
43:31
Yuzu and those sort
43:32
SPEAKER_03: of companies that are sharing that information,
43:33
SPEAKER_03: which is really insightful.
43:35
But the reason why I think Nintendo has managed to largely
43:37
resist that world,
43:39
SPEAKER_03: or they haven't completely,
43:41
SPEAKER_03: is because I'm in the playground.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: I've got a five-year-old,
43:44
SPEAKER_03: and I pick them up,
43:44
and their kids have all got Pokemon backpacks and Mario
43:46
backpacks and all that kind
43:47
SPEAKER_03: of stuff,
43:48
SPEAKER_03: whether it's from the movie or whatever it is.
43:50
But from there,
43:51
parents prefer that because they're going,
43:53
I can buy a product and a game.
43:56
My wife downloaded an Angry Birds game because my son loves
44:00
this Angry Birds CBeebies thing.
44:02
CBeebies is the British BBC for children and there's a little
44:07
app and there's a rip
44:09
SPEAKER_03: off of Angry Birds on it and it's not very good.
44:11
SPEAKER_03: So my wife said, oh, you should play the Angry Birds version.
44:13
SPEAKER_03: So he downloaded that,
44:13
but it's a new Angry Birds game and it's one of those things
44:16
where the game is fun
44:17
SPEAKER_03: for about an hour.
44:18
And then if you want to keep having fun,
44:19
you have to start spending money and
44:21
SPEAKER_03: And she's like, oh, what have I downloaded?
44:23
SPEAKER_03: What's going on here?
44:24
SPEAKER_03: And I went and I said,
44:27
SPEAKER_03: stay clear of all that because it's that I'm happy to buy the thing,
44:31
SPEAKER_03: right?
44:31
SPEAKER_03: Because I'm in a privileged position where I can,
44:34
but I'm happy to buy the thing because I'd rather that was the
44:38
experience that my
44:38
SPEAKER_03: children are getting rather than being,
44:40
SPEAKER_03: hey,
44:40
SPEAKER_03: watch this advert.
44:41
SPEAKER_03: Hey, oh, you want to actually beat that boss?
44:44
SPEAKER_03: Hey, the 99p.
44:44
SPEAKER_03: Open loot boxes.
44:47
SPEAKER_03: From a parenting point of view,
44:48
Nintendo is quite safe and that's why I think they've managed
44:52
to bring through
44:54
SPEAKER_03: these generational,
44:55
SPEAKER_03: that sort of thing.
44:56
SPEAKER_03: So in this industry, it shifts all the time.
44:58
It was only a few years ago,
44:59
it feels like a few years ago,
45:00
the PC was dead.
45:01
SPEAKER_03: It was all over.
45:01
SPEAKER_03: PC gaming was doomed and console gaming was the future.
45:05
SPEAKER_02: The number of times PC gaming has died since I've been doing this.
45:10
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting to me that you have all these kids of Pokemon backpacks,
45:16
SPEAKER_02: those backpacks came from China.
45:18
Merchandising has been a huge revenue source for the industry
45:21
and around the
45:22
SPEAKER_02: industry over the last few years,
45:23
SPEAKER_02: and it's heavily dependent on,
45:26
SPEAKER_02: largely on,
45:26
SPEAKER_02: sort of Chinese men and Pacha.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: So there's going to be a particular,
45:30
SPEAKER_02: that's going to be another sort of second order consequence.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: And it's not like games retail was in a good place to begin with,
45:35
SPEAKER_02: but they're very heavily reliant on,
45:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:39
SPEAKER_02: Unco Pops and that kind of stuff.
45:40
SPEAKER_02: And now that's, you know, that's really under threat.
45:44
SPEAKER_02: video games,
45:46
cats write that the younger audiences are very big on free to
45:50
play and they have
45:51
affinity with franchises that were not in existence when we
45:56
were coming up.
45:58
SPEAKER_02: And obviously,
45:59
SPEAKER_02: Roblox,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: which is just incredibly nebulous format,
46:02
SPEAKER_02: there's all sorts of nonsense on there,
46:04
SPEAKER_02: but games are increasingly digital.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's a harder thing to put the tariffs on.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: Those don't have to get put on a boat.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: My suspicion is,
46:14
SPEAKER_02: and I don't know the answer to this,
46:17
SPEAKER_02: and there's going to be a whole bunch of,
46:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
46:18
if the US administration starts looking at Steam and their
46:23
reach in China,
46:25
SPEAKER_02: that's going to be a difficult conversation.
46:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
46:28
All of the tariff chat has been overwhelmingly about goods and
46:32
increasingly games are services.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: And I think there's room for them to sort of,
46:38
SPEAKER_02: well,
46:38
SPEAKER_02: at least there is some uncertainty for them to operate,
46:41
SPEAKER_02: at least.
46:42
SPEAKER_03: I'm conscious of the time,
46:43
SPEAKER_03: but yes,
46:44
SPEAKER_03: obviously,
46:44
SPEAKER_03: I think if they start putting tariffs on services,
46:46
I think that might hit the US because that's what they're
46:48
particularly good at,
46:50
SPEAKER_03: where they're free traffic.
46:51
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to end on one story that's in the newsletter.
46:54
SPEAKER_03: We don't have to speak too much about it,
46:56
SPEAKER_03: but back at GDC,
46:57
SPEAKER_03: if you cast mine back a month,
46:59
SPEAKER_03: you may have missed this story.
47:00
Jackbox Games announced a partnership with Amazon Game Lift to
47:03
basically create a
47:03
SPEAKER_03: streaming service for Jackbox Games.
47:06
where you can access their party packs through devices like
47:09
smart TVs and Roku.
47:11
SPEAKER_03: And it sounded interesting.
47:13
SPEAKER_03: I spoke to the Jackbox CEO,
47:14
SPEAKER_03: my builder,
47:15
and he told me that they might start releasing games more
47:17
frequently as a result
47:18
SPEAKER_03: rather than just putting it all into one pack at the end of the year.
47:20
They even started talking about signing third party games for
47:22
the platform.
47:23
SPEAKER_03: All very niche, all very interesting.
47:25
But the reason why I wanted to talk to Mike is because this was
47:28
announced at GDC,
47:30
but also announced at GDC was that Netflix is also looking into
47:33
building party games,
47:34
SPEAKER_03: just like Jackbox's titles that use the phone to play,
47:37
SPEAKER_03: basically,
47:37
SPEAKER_03: and putting them into their streaming and subscription service.
47:40
SPEAKER_03: So in my interview with Mike, I thought I'd ask about that.
47:43
SPEAKER_03: And here is what he said.
47:46
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of people chasing this.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: I think that there's a there there.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it's necessarily going to be one dominant player.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: I think there have been a few that have existed.
47:55
SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
47:55
SPEAKER_01: in the past,
47:56
SPEAKER_01: if you look at cloud gaming,
47:57
SPEAKER_01: you talk about Stadia,
47:59
SPEAKER_01: you talk about kind of really big initiatives.
48:02
I think the people that are approaching it right now are a
48:04
little more measured with it.
48:07
SPEAKER_01: I think Netflix is actually wise in that,
48:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:10
I think one of the flaws of Stadia back in the day was this was
48:12
a console killer.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: It was a replacement for your AAA, you know, PC rig.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: It was, you know, AAA 4K gaming all the time, anywhere that you want.
48:21
And I think the thing that was maybe misunderstood was a lot of
48:24
people have
48:25
invested years of their lives into those platforms and they
48:28
have entitlements and
48:30
achievements and they have friends lists and they have a group
48:32
and a cohort that
48:33
SPEAKER_01: they play with whenever they get online.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: And so you may be able to play that AAA title in the cloud,
48:39
but people want to play it on their PS5 because that's where
48:41
their friend group is.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: That's where all their blood,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: sweat and tears has gone for the last 10,
48:46
SPEAKER_01: 15 years that they've owned that
48:51
SPEAKER_01: console or generation of console.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think with our kind of games, that doesn't matter.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: As I mentioned before, we also don't need this, right?
49:02
So when you talk about a cloud gaming service and now you need
49:06
to Bluetooth connect
49:07
SPEAKER_01: your generic controller to a television,
49:12
SPEAKER_01: that adds friction.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: And we've
49:15
We've learned throughout the course of building our
49:18
infrastructure and our platform
49:21
SPEAKER_01: that eliminating friction is key to getting people into the game.
49:23
The moment everybody's got to get on the same Wi-Fi or
49:26
everybody's going to adhere
49:27
SPEAKER_01: a device to this thing,
49:29
SPEAKER_01: you've introduced friction,
49:30
SPEAKER_01: you're going to lose people,
49:30
and the interest in playing that particular game is going to go
49:34
away pretty quickly.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: And so,
49:36
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:36
SPEAKER_01: the whole basis of Jackbox.tv being a website,
49:39
SPEAKER_01: doesn't matter what device you're on,
49:40
SPEAKER_01: doesn't matter what network you're connected to,
49:42
SPEAKER_01: cellular,
49:43
SPEAKER_01: Wi-Fi,
49:43
SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
49:44
SPEAKER_01: you can join and play.
49:45
A lot of that is with intent because we wanted to eliminate the
49:49
friction of play.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: But again,
49:52
I think our kind of games serve themselves really well for that
49:55
stream 10-foot experience.
49:57
SPEAKER_01: And,
49:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:58
SPEAKER_01: my guess is Netflix has identified the same thing,
50:01
SPEAKER_01: and that's why they're chasing a category of party games.
50:05
It's interesting because obviously streaming has yet to take
50:07
off in the AAA space,
50:09
but Mike there is talking about how actually more casual games
50:12
that target
50:13
SPEAKER_03: different audiences might be sort of way forward.
50:16
SPEAKER_03: Does streaming party games appeal to either of you?
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the fewer barriers to entry, the better, honestly.
50:26
SPEAKER_00: I play Jackbox with my friends all the time.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, really?
50:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's been a great game for many years.
50:34
And it's the kind of game that is really easy to get people who
50:36
aren't normally gamers into.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: You just say, just sign in on your smartphone.
50:40
SPEAKER_00: It's great.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: Okay, come on.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: And historically,
50:43
we've had to get it on Steam or get it on our Switch and then
50:47
set it up and everything.
50:48
SPEAKER_00: We have to have a dock.
50:50
So just being able to have it directly through a service
50:53
strikes me as a wise move.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: Anything to remove the friction of being able to get into these games.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: And Netflix itself, I think, has been...
51:03
SPEAKER_00: really trying to find the right balance.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: It's been experimenting a lot.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: They had a studio that wanted to make a hardcore competitive shooter.
51:15
I don't think that's going to work in a streaming context with
51:19
variable online
51:22
SPEAKER_00: connections and input delay and whatnot.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: So this strikes me as kind of a good direction for that.
51:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:30
And I think that's kind of tapping into the slightly more kind
51:33
of casual gaming space,
51:34
SPEAKER_02: which has always been enormous.
51:37
You know,
51:37
those mobile games have always been wildly successful for the
51:43
last sort of 20 years.
51:45
SPEAKER_02: And it also,
51:46
SPEAKER_02: honestly,
51:46
SPEAKER_02: brings to mind to me,
51:48
SPEAKER_02: and this is a deep cut for the heads,
51:50
SPEAKER_02: is one versus 100 when that was on Xbox Live back in the day.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: That's a deep cut.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
51:57
SPEAKER_02: But that was, I mean, it was broadly a streaming experience.
51:59
SPEAKER_02: It was sort of destination television.
52:01
SPEAKER_02: And it was wildly popular.
52:03
SPEAKER_02: People were extremely distraught when Microsoft killed it.
52:06
SPEAKER_02: And that strikes me as a,
52:07
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:08
SPEAKER_02: that's a proven way to kind of,
52:10
SPEAKER_02: and that was how you could bring people together,
52:12
SPEAKER_02: like not even just in the same room.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: That wasn't a couch game.
52:15
SPEAKER_02: That was, you could do that with online players as well.
52:19
So I think there's great potential there on GLADS that Jackbox
52:22
don't feel too intimidated by.
52:24
SPEAKER_03: Well,
52:24
SPEAKER_03: no,
52:24
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
52:24
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
52:25
SPEAKER_03: well,
52:25
SPEAKER_03: then it's like there's the,
52:26
SPEAKER_03: they've got the Jabba's got their murder mystery game,
52:28
SPEAKER_03: which is,
52:28
SPEAKER_03: I've forgotten the name of it now,
52:29
but their third one's this year and it's got an online
52:33
component to it for the
52:33
SPEAKER_03: first time.
52:34
And they were talking about some of the stuff they can do with
52:36
streaming in terms
52:37
SPEAKER_03: of like people watching in and all this kind of stuff.
52:39
SPEAKER_03: It sounded,
52:39
SPEAKER_03: it sounded interesting and promising if it can find an audience,
52:41
but obviously Netflix has got probably around 700 million
52:45
people that utilize that service.
52:47
And so having games in there that actually might appeal to 700
52:50
million people and
52:51
SPEAKER_03: not just to the,
52:52
SPEAKER_03: the small crossover of people that might want the GTA game,
52:55
SPEAKER_03: which is still huge,
52:56
SPEAKER_03: is certainly interesting.
52:57
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's it for today's show.
53:00
SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Kat, and thank you, John, for joining me.
53:03
SPEAKER_03: I think we could have spoken for ages.
53:04
SPEAKER_03: We already have spoken for ages.
53:07
But I appreciate you having on the show,
53:08
and hopefully I can invite you back in the future.
53:12
SPEAKER_03: We'd love to come back.
53:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'd love to.
53:14
SPEAKER_03: We'll be back on Tuesday for our feature show.
53:16
SPEAKER_03: To make sure you don't miss an episode,
53:18
SPEAKER_03: though,
53:19
SPEAKER_03: or any of our big news updates,
53:20
SPEAKER_03: we do just do normal newsletters from time to time.
53:22
SPEAKER_03: Please sign up to our free emails at thegamebusiness.com.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: Until next time, thank you all for tuning in.