Latest / JUSTRIDE Podcast / “Half of Riders Can’t Brake Properly…” Motorcycle Expert Speaks Out | JUSTRIDE Podcast Ep.2

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“Half of Riders Can’t Brake Properly…” Motorcycle Expert Speaks Out | JUSTRIDE Podcast Ep.2 · JUSTRIDE Podcast

• Admin: So week on Just Ride we're joined by a man who says it takes 24 years for most riders to become competent, not expert, competent. ⁓ He half of riders can't break properly, the official braking advice has been wrong 50 years and most fatalities on bends aren't about speed, they're about inability. He's trained the races, Rossbred Vance riders and tested hundreds of bikers and he's not afraid to call out the system. This is going to be dividing opinion, we think, but I think it'll be a good one anyway. Mike Abbott, founder of British Suitabike School on Just Ride tonight. Do you want to kind give us a little bit of ⁓ a background to what you're up and what you've been doing? well, I got into this accident ⁓ via Jobcentre Plus. after a career in manufacturing. So it's a bit strange to be here. But when you get into it, you'll find that a lot is missing, but it takes you a while. I I've been doing this for 16 years now, but it's only in the last couple of years that I've really started. pushing for change. Right. But you'll find most people want to change. Yeah. It's just getting a consensus and getting things done. Yeah. I mean, you know, looking at lot of the issues out there that's been obviously documented, we've got the new air road safety strategy that's come out and they're all talking about looking at changing the bank test and changing maybe some of the training again. What's your kind of thoughts on that? Michael: problem is it's political. It's getting people on two wheels and trying to find a balance. ⁓ there are populations. There's the ⁓ moped urban riding, lower speeds, ⁓ more less serious, probably don't need ⁓ detailed And then you get into one, two, fives and above. Admin: big problem is it's political. Right. It's getting people on two wheels and try to find a balance but there sort of two populations There's the sort of moped riders. Yeah urban riding lower speeds More accidents less serious Probably don't need detail training and then you get into one two fives and above You're out in the countryside bends braking, know, high speed and it's a different ball game. Yeah. So, but it is looking at being reviewed. I think the DVSA are looking quite carefully at it, but at end of the day, it's going to be political. Well, I know you mentioned before about the broken system and the fact that you've said that DVSA data shows it takes 24 years for 80 % of riders to become competent. How is competent being defined? Michael: ⁓ It's through the enhanced rider scheme. There's a number of different modules. You assess riders against all the modules. You identify shortcomings, put them into the category, ⁓ provide the rider with that specific training, report that back to the DVSA, and then they either get up to standard or they don't. Admin: ⁓ It's through the enhanced rider scheme. There's a number of different modules. You assess riders against all the modules. You identify shortcomings, put them into the category, provide the rider with that specific training, report that back to the DVSA and then they either get up to standard or they don't. So what have riders been doing wrong for 24 years then in terms of not being at that kind of level? It's difficult, a lot of it is confidence. Cornering is always going to be a problem. A lot of riders are frightened to lean the bike and that really compromises them and that's where a lot of the danger is. But the braking thing, I've known about a long while. you'll find when you race, first time I came down to park at Cadwell, I hit the brakes about 300 feet, first marker, and everybody went past me. I thought, ⁓ that's a bit strange. And then by the third or fourth lap, you're breaking at 150 feet and getting around the corner. But if you don't have that experience and even the theory says, you do not learn to break in an emergency. Right. Probably, you've only got one opportunity. Yeah. And even if you have a second one, you still haven't learned anything by it. All you found out is you can't stop. Yeah, interesting, because I know Tom and myself, would say it was 10 years ago, but did the new the new test system, obviously, going and doing the slalom and you're you're breaking and you do get you get the one go and that's it right. You've done you've passed that. There's no, there's nothing else that we have experienced in terms of someone teaching me how to break. They just expect you right off you go. You can break. You've proven that you can, you can pass the test. ⁓ and that's, that's obviously from your point of view. I mean, you've, you've obviously talked about this quite a bit in terms of people not having the ability to break properly. How do you, how do we address that? Well, you can, you need to prove it first. accepts my findings. Right. You know, it's got to be a proper program. We've got Cardiff University starting working on it now, but it needs everybody on board. And basically, riders need to practice braking. Yeah. And they won't do it because they don't like it. It's scary. You can go over the handlebars. You can end up headbutting the tarmac. And why do it when you don't have to? Yeah, it's I went through all my training bear in mind I'm sort of pre pre CBT by quite a margin but did all my advanced training or my DVSA training and Nobody ever checked I could stop from high speed It's a no. Yeah, it's really it's really in the in the previous episode and I talked about not having a front break for a couple of months and on my brand new bike when I was riding elsewhere and having to just use a back brake. And it was a real education in actually riding your bike and doing that. And obviously not safe either. I, so I remember doing, as you've described there, doing around the slaloms and everything else. But I was fortunate that I got taught by a police rider. And I used to go out and used to follow me on all of my lessons. I got followed by a police rider. And he used always say to me, just breaking a straight line. and make sure the bike is balanced before you go into a bend. ⁓ Using both front and back brake. And it seems to this like real debate now about, know, is it just all the front brake? Is it, you know, applying the pressure in the front brake? And it's like, well, I think I just do things instinctively. I'm not saying I do everything right, by the way, but I just do some things instinctively. But I think that's probably been drilled into me by the gentleman that taught me. But it's really interesting. And one of the things I would like to ask Mike is, when you talked about lots of accidents going into in bends, is there is a data that backs up, know, if it's a left hand bend or a right hand bend, or is it just bends in general? Well, the only difference on the road is camber and the risk. Obviously you run wide on the left hand bend, you're into oncoming traffic on a right hand bend is the scenery. Yeah, but technically there's no difference. So Mike, happened to me. just over a year ago, I was going on a left hand bend. I happened to hit diesel on the road and I lost the back end. And the one thing they don't teach you or prepare for, because it's obviously an accident, is what to do after the fact of when you've lost control, how to regain control. Because once I hit the bend, first thing I did was try to slow down and put the rear brake on and try to pull the front brake. By that time I brought the bike up right, I'd gone onto grass and I had no chance and ended up in a field. And that hit my confidence a lot. And I had to do further training after that just to build my confidence back up. But the biggest thing for me was I didn't understand why it happened and I didn't also understand how to actually get out of the issue at the end of it. So when the back end stepped out, I didn't know what to do. I didn't have the skills and I'll hold my hands up. I didn't have the skills to know how to get out of that. And that was on a bend and that's down to breaking and cornering, like you said. Yeah. Well, there's a big debate at the moment about trail breaking, which is comes from racing where you come in hard on the front brake, you know, the limits of grip and that's been sold as the way to ride, not at an extreme, you know, carry a bit of breaking gives you a bit more grip. helps you to corner, which it doesn't. But that's, you know, it's an illusion. if you're selling training, you've got to show that you have something that other people haven't. And if you look at it, it's, you know, it's not only in this country, it's elsewhere. They sell trail breaking. You know, it's different and it's clever and racers do it and it's safer, it's better and it gives you a lot more feel. which is all untrue. Yeah I've seen quite a lot of you know videos on YouTube over the last couple of months and everybody is advocating trail breaking at the moment and and they give different... Do you know why? Go on. It's on National Highway's website. Okay. Bike-a-Tec Webster. Right right. ⁓ And it's interesting isn't it because I think you know people come up with scientific reasons and You can watch a video, can sit in a classroom even, but actually taking that theory and putting it into practice on the road is where the rubber hits the road literally, I think, because I know for myself, I've ⁓ watched videos, I've read books and everything, but it's not until you get out there and you start practicing some of these things ⁓ or you start thinking, Well, actually, that doesn't work for me in that scenario. And as you say, know, trail breaking might work on the on the racetrack. But does it really work on the on, you know, on UK roads or, you know, on the highway and John Millbank's social says stop blaming him. It's not him doing it. ⁓ my my my little message from John today. But irrespective of all the arguments, if you're trail breaking. You're going into the corner faster than you would otherwise. And that puts you at risk. I mean, if you read RoadCraft, you've got the grip trade-off. If you're using grip in braking, it's not available for cornering. That's right. That's right. There's a thing that we call the fox's face, which is some tests at Mugello, which prove the same thing. But obviously, that's more extreme. But it's the same. You can't create grip, you can either use it or lose it. coming back to an earlier point there, Mike, we talking about ⁓ and the number of years it takes to become a competent rider. ⁓ mean, Tom's the youngest rider in our group. How old are you, Tom? Am I allowed to ask you that? 27. 27, so... So, you you're a youngest. I'm one of the older ones in the room. Well, I'm actually looking to Andy, he's older than me. yeah, I'm the only elder one in the group here. And I've been right. I'm OK. I can be classed as competent. He's confident. Yeah. But for me, my my journey in biking, I took my test in 2000 or probably 1999. ⁓ I then met my wife who didn't like bikes. So I didn't get on a bike for years after. I literally did my CBT, I did my direct access in like the following week and then never got on a bike again. And then literally probably 15 years later went out and bought, you know, 650 went straight up the roads and came off it because all that training I'd done many years ago had completely gone. And over the last few years, I've actually booked myself on various training courses and I've gone out one to one with other riders to get my confidence back, but also to hone some of those skills. I think it is, isn't it? It's that danger of people learn once, but then they don't practice. Michael: Yeah, the learnings really isn't deep enough. Admin: Yeah, the learnings really isn't deep enough. Because we're about to come in today. mean, I did. strange of miles today. I've lost count to be fair, I left this morning at three degrees, wrapped up riding in 13 degrees later on. there was bikes coming out today, which is great. So we're about to head into what I think is hopefully fingers crossed where the temperature is going up. And I mean, it's still salt everywhere, but certainly, we're coming into the new banking season. You're going to have a lot of riders. It happens every year, we know you're going to be coming out a little bit rusty. What sort of advice would you give to those riders that are coming out now in terms of whether they want to do something to kind of refresh their skills or just be a little bit more confident? first thing is pump your tyres up. That's good one. A lot of people just forget tyres go down over winter. The thing is to be easy with yourself. If you don't feel apprehensive, just get off and go back in the house, know, yeah, you've got because you've got to be aware Yeah, if you've done a reasonable amount of riding it comes back very quickly. Yeah But back to the point about the crash on the corner, you know, you lose the back end If you were taught properly, you should never use the front brake in a corner Unless you can stand the bike up and stop in a straight line As soon as you touch the brake in a corner, the front brake, the bike stands up. It's your, you can read the solters, motorcycle dynamics, if you want all the equations and everything. the thing is, but for me was obviously because it's never happened to me before. Yeah. You can, you can learn everything and understand how you go around the bend. When that sheer thing happens and catches you off and catches you out. everything else changes then because your perspective changes because you weren't expecting it. And then all of sudden you've got to think like literally milliseconds of what to do by that time. Those milliseconds you're in a field. get what you're saying. I hundred percent agree with what you're saying. But for me, when it happened, I thought I took myself as I was a competent rider. And then it was like a little bit of a three steps forward and like 25 back. And then it me time. But I do understand what you're saying. but was after the fact that's what caught me out because I didn't, but if I had just gone run the bend and not done any breaking, I'd have probably just gone run the bend, but I'd have been on the other side of the road because I'd rather use more road. But it's going to happen sooner or later. Yeah. Yeah. Did anybody ever teach you to break on a bend? Did you ever practice breaking on a bend? No. Well, you're going to come off. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Mike, you you were saying there about you know not breaking in corners but to lean ⁓ so you know one of the discussions we often have is about lean angles and you know what how far should you lean and what's safe and what isn't have you got any thoughts on that Michael: It's thought to be about 35 degrees is safe on the road because you've used Just less than half you lean at 45 degrees. It's 1g The total amount of grip you've got is about 1.6g so Admin: it's thought to be about 35 degrees is safe on the road there you go there go i'm perfect then so ⁓ all right just less than half yeah you lean at degrees it's one g Right. The total amount of grip you've got is about 1.6 G. So. And is that because you're on the fat part of the tire, Mike, as well, you're keeping more contact with the road or is it nothing to do with. That's another myth. All right. Okay. Because in theory it's weight and coefficient of friction. Right. Not contact area. It obviously does make a difference if it's hugely different. But it's just another one of those. Sorry, I'm to happen here. You know, get it on the fat part of the time. Yeah. So it's fatter when you're leaning over. Right. I was, was just obviously shuffling there because I'm a larger gentleman, I was just thinking I'm going to have to lose some power. I feel like I'm back at school. It is interesting that whole lean angle because obviously now you've got, mean, the BMW is that we certainly, Brian, have got the but in sport mode, you've got that lane and you're always like, well, how far over can I go and what's safe to do? And you don't know, you just go until, I mean, I know for a fact, when you know Mike, when I told you about my 48 and I knew at that point I was probably too far over because my centre stand's got a big scrape. It's like what's black has now got a bit of shiny metal on it. And so I know I've probably gone over to that, but. But there's a part of that story he doesn't tell anyone about and it's the camber of the road. So he wasn't actually leaning the road. Yeah, it's up in hot side and there's a bit that we go around there. But like on the previous the 1250 RS I'd managed, I think I've managed about 44 whatever and obviously now riding the 1300s more sports. So I'm just getting used to a bike that naturally will go over more but I don't know what is a safe level other than because of the tight left hand, it's like a bit of a hairpin, isn't it? And it has got a waist camber. And really it's the only, it is the only bend that you can get the bike over quite far. But I actually felt after that, because I did it both ways and both ways was 48, that actually you said it looked at the tire, I'd probably gone right to the limit. Yeah, right on the edge of the tire, right on the Where do you, where can you go to learn about certainly cornering and doing cornering safely and what, you know, the kind of dynamics around what you talk about there about, about. the friction, of ⁓ the load on the back tire and the G's. Where can you go to kind of get the confidence to be able to go and do it properly? Well, a lot of people try track day and there's plenty of people offering track training but you'll find mostly it's just following another rider around. There's a bit of theory, some of it's okay, some of it isn't. Some of it works even though it's wrong. But you could do a bit on the road as long as you're careful. Yeah. You know, but on the road, mostly it's you have to stop in the distance you can see. Yeah. So the only time you can really lean on the corner when you've got a big wide open corner. Yeah. And the road surface is so variable nowadays. Yeah. 100%. So you're just going to take a chance. Yeah. But the rule of thumb I say to people, as long as you're not on a sports bike, something scraping you gone too far yeah point point noted and braking i mean you you talk about breaking quite a bit and certainly i've read a lot about you talking about braking do you want to expand on that in terms of the the g because i think that you know on on certainly on the the new bmw there's a on the sport model there's a bit that tells you how much braking force but What is the kind of, I mean, to be honest, I've looked at it. I've seen seen it. Kawasaki's. Oh, is it? And there are other Motifoso. Mike, they have chains. They have chains. We are counting how many times Andrew says BMW tonight. But interestingly. Second podcast is wall up BMW team. Sorry. He does have two. But I'm really interested to learn about what you do talk about is that most riders can't brake properly. and how do we go about, I mean, you've mentioned obviously going in with a car park, but what do we need to be thinking about and what do the viewers need to be thinking about in terms of how to practice that and be able to do it safely if we only get that, if you've just passed your test in the last 10 years, you get that one opportunity and nobody teaches it. Michael: Well, if you've got ABS, you're a lot safer and it's just then confidence. You know, you can snatch the handle, it doesn't matter. ⁓ If you're on the first generation ABS, you still can go over the handlebars. So you need to be aware of that. But it happens so slowly, you got a chance to back off on the the brake and you can do it, but it's it's it's sort of unusual. ⁓ Admin: Well, if you've got ABS, you're a lot safer and it's just then confidence. You can snatch the handle, it doesn't matter. If you're on the first generation ABS, you still can go over the handlebars. So you need to be aware of that. But it happens so slowly. You got a chance to back off on the on the brake and you can do it, but it's it's it's sort of unusual. Second generation ABS, you can once again just stamp on the back brake, grab hold of a handful of front brake and you just need the confidence to do that. But it's when you haven't got ABS, which is the real problem. And the other problem is if you do it on a bend, even with the latest ABS, the bike will still stand up and run wide or it won't break depending on, I guess, the software. So, learned the hard way. It is difficult. mean, I've trained a hundred riders. You say, you want to try braking from 50, 60? And they go, Okay, so, okay, go down the quarry road, a couple of cones there, break the first cone. And they go miles. And you go back again and say, just squeeze it a little bit harder. You should be stopping by that cone there. And they go back again and they get a lot, lot nearer. And third or fourth attempt, they're there. It's as simple as that. But if you've never done it and never had to do it, never been taught to do it, never been tested so that you could do it, you're not going to do it. And is that because people are fearful that they might do a top rack and end up on the front wheel and, come out, everything's going to become unbalanced, bike itself, or is it just because they just don't have the confidence? comes from cycles. Right. Okay. You you've gone over the handlebars, you push by or you've locked the front and headbutted the tarmac. Yeah. And it's, feels kind of similar. So I think that's what it is. The problem is it gets a lot scarier the faster you go. experience takes longer. It's four seconds from 16 and more expensive. And it's like doing a handstand. And if you're really on it, you find you can't actually see where you're going because your head nods forward with the weight of your helmet. So you end up looking at your front tire. Yeah. But very few people have ever experienced it. As I say, you don't learn it. ⁓ if you can't do it, then you're just vulnerable. Yeah. waiting for something to pull out and you won't stop. Yeah. I simple as that. think when we all did our bike test, I think it was a case of, know, 30 miles an hour. And when I say stop, stop, and that was it, isn't it? And, ⁓ as long as you stop in a straight line and in control of the vehicle, that was considered to be adequate in past. ⁓ they could data log you the highway codes 0.67 G. You can stop at 0.9g, you can hit 1.2g briefly while the bike sort of pitches forward. But if you can stop at 0.9g, you can stop in 25 % less than the highway code. And you've mentioned, I mean, certainly go and get one of these data loggers, which if we can work out how what the data means on the on the bike won't mention the bike. But you mentioned getting one of these data loggers and actually going and maybe practicing that in a safe environment and seeing what you can and you know, you mentioned that it's breaking it point seven and point nine is a big difference. What does that kind of mean in real terms? In real world terms that difference? Yeah, you can do it. There's an app called I little I capital A CCEL. Ixl. Yeah, but it's only available on iPhone now because it's been so unpopular on Google. Right. And it's very simple. It's got very low sampling rate, We use a Curvex data logger, which the manufacturer has lent me. Yeah. And that has got a sampling rate of 20 hertz. Michael: We use a Curvex. Admin: So you can actually see somebody through the braking cycle. You know, how well they applied the brake, whether they kept it on. You can spot to see where they've skidded. And that's really useful. And that's how you get to point nine. It's weird when you see people, they brake quite hard initially, and then they seem to go to sleep halfway through and the braking rate drops. So you just tell them, you know, keep it on it. I know you're talking about Mike, because obviously you're talking about the cone thing and all that. I've done that part, the training. went to a local company that's well, it's not local, it's all over UK, but for a day's training and they were doing the braking thing for the cones. And it's weird, like the different compression as you pull the brake, you take up the slack and then you pull in and how you stop. And because we were doing it up to 50 mile an hour and to stop right next to him by the cone. In with the first time I did it went straight past him because it's you just you're trying to judge it and you either pull the brake too hard and you slow down before the person or you'll shoot straight past. So yeah, it was the best bit of training I did and I've learned I put that into practice now after my accident and thinking about stuff and put it logically. But yeah, I do get what you're saying because it isn't as easy as people think. It just takes a lot of practice and you need somewhere safe to just understand how your bike breaks and how you break. The problem is if you take the road safety community, they all drive cars. What do do in an emergency in a car? Stamp on the brake. Yeah. Yeah. What's it with you guys on two wheels? You know, how difficult is that? I can feel a bit of a bit of a little exercise, a little bit of content being created here. think we'll be able to go, won't we, in a safe place. I'm not sure. I've got a nice big car park we can borrow. Yes, he has as well. You need to come up. Well, I could give you the bring me Curvex data logger and you can actually see how you do it. I'm just waiting for the invitation for all to come down and be proper, proper riders after doing one of your courses. ⁓ always welcome. We're not the track this year, ⁓ we will be back next year. ⁓ your advice? And right, I said, going back to the question that people getting the bikes back out now. Is there any particular course out there you think is worth going doing? Bike safe is always worthwhile. I I used to be a civilian assessor for Lynx bike safe. ⁓ Okay. and I did bike safe with Lynx ⁓ before I trained up. And ⁓ after getting trained, could go back then and just be a volunteer And it's good. The problem bike safe, which the MPCC are aware of is that some of the riders pass on their emergency response and pursuit tactics. And that is the root cause of the problems in advanced training. That's why doesn't work. Do you to expand on that? It's a weird situation. The DVSA sort of take responsibility up to post-test and then they hand the rest over to the police. And it's weird because you've got BikeSafe, then you've got the enhanced rider scheme. So you're back with the DVSA and then you're on to advanced and you're back with the police again. Right. And they are trying to do something about it. And you've got a lot of ex-police riders. providing advanced training, some commercially, and they pass on their practices. And they seem to forget they've been carefully selected, continuously trained, they ride every day nearly, they're riding at high speed. And I genuinely think most of them are trying to be helpful. But they're putting riders at risk. Interesting classic thing. ⁓ it's called off-siding. You take a left hand bend from the right hand gutter The police are supposed to have stopped doing it well 1980s, they're still doing it And it's a risk you can see around the corner better see and be seen But the trouble is nobody expects you to be there. Michael: But it's like that, taking every opportunity to overtake, filter, ⁓ going straight on from right hand turn lanes, cross hatch areas, you have to take every opportunity to overtake. And the public should never be in a hurry. And the standard thing is, is it safe? But is it necessary? And often it isn't necessary to overtake. Certainly not. Admin: But it's like that, taking every opportunity to overtake, filter, going straight on from right hand turn lanes, ⁓ cross hatch areas, you have to take every opportunity to overtake. And the public should never be in a hurry. The standard thing is, is it safe? But is it necessary? And often it isn't necessary to overtake. It's certainly not. because of the chance you take when you do it, you're never really sure what's going to happen. But that's my opinion of what's wrong with Have you seen the Agilisis report? The National Highways? No. They could find no benefits whatsoever from any train. Wow. And they did one for the IAM, which to their great credit, they published. Apparently two others haven't been published and if you're an IAM rider You're gonna fall off just as often But you'll be doing a bit more miles. We've both fallen off You'll have different types of collisions You'll be more likely to blame others and You're more likely to drop your I've done all of them except myself I blamed you. And it is a problem. Yeah. That's really surprised me, Mike, to be honest, because I was quite proud of the fact that I did the IM and did it past got a really good mark, if you like. you know, but then again, I mean, certainly Bob Brown said, because I'd had that, you know, with great roads, great rides, I'd had a lot of kind of reading the road knowledge, which was fine. But yeah, in terms of I felt I felt like I was a more competent rider after doing that. But that was personally how I felt, because I think that that I felt that I'd had that kind of level of training. And yep, great, you're a great, rider, fantastic. But then I fell off. I mean, I was going around the bend. So to be fair, it was Sunday afternoon, shouldn't really gone out. you know, it's a very, very thin road. I was normally I'd be right over the left to see around the right hand bend. I was kind of in the middle of the car. I didn't expect the car come around. So for me, it was, just tried to avoid it and I went in the ditch. But you have to appreciate there's a lot of people putting a lot of time and volunteers with the best intentions. So you can't really blame them. But the problem is the structure is police riding. Interesting. think as well you get a bit complacent as well. So when you've done your advanced you think, ⁓ yeah, I'm the daddy now. But you're not really. Because like I said, my dad always told me when you pass your driving test. you've passed your driving test, now you start to learn how to drive. And that's where you like I did, but it was only like six months later, I put a V in my dad's Volvo ⁓ when it was. So yeah, it's all these type of things. So you start every day you go out, you learn something new, whether it's a good or bad. Biggest thing is picking up bad habits, I think. ⁓ But Mike, what do you think? it because obviously you can follow people, but if they're not doing it right, you're not doing it right. I mean it's all about the instructor. Yeah it's difficult I mean most instructors ride reasonably well yeah but if you've got an ex-police or a police rider he's gonna ride the way normally rides. Yeah. And he's gonna probably stick to the speed limit or somewhere near. It's quite amusing actually I've had two riders ⁓ come on the enhanced rider scheme as ⁓ a sort of a both retired as a sort of a catch you up, which is good. They're so easy to spot. They've all got 85 miles an hour. And not the right hands out of the road. Yeah. And it's weird because I don't say anything. They don't. I used to think it was the DVSA doing a secret shopper on me. Undercover boss. we get to the end and I say to them, when did you retire from the force? And it's like you've slapped them on the face. I'm saying, how do you know that? Try to impress the teacher. It's pretty obvious. It's strange. We, um, there's a road quite local to us where there's a, there's a car park and it's got a great vantage point. don't want to say which police force or which area it is. Um, but there's a car park at the top and you can see the twisty road for quite a distance. And I remember being stood at the top there one day when a police rider came along. Yes. And he basically straightened out every bend. So, ⁓ you know, he was on either side of the road. I suppose they do that thing. Don't know if it's safe to do so. But you could see a good distance down around these bends. And there's me as an ordinary rider trying to keep to the keep to my lane. And I'm just thinking, maybe I'm and you're losing speed and you're scrubbing speed off. And I'm not talking about excessive speeds, just normal. road, the road legal speed, but he just seemed to make it so look so effortless on this very upright RT that he was riding. And it was just, he just looked poetry in motion. But the rest of us, you know, maybe don't have that skill or that training level. But you would identify straight away if he was on an ordinary bike, he'd say, there's a police rider. There is somebody that. give away, it? Yeah. mean, they are very good. They're very well trying. and they don't have that many accidents but they are at risk and the problem is as a civilian rider you know you're not on a marked bike you haven't been trained anything light to the same standard you haven't had to practice so you're to be at risk you know just following somebody around it makes you laugh some of the track days when you're doing training you're following one of the BSP riders and you think ⁓ doing quite well the guy's bored out of his mind. It's difficult. just just going back to what you mentioned, obviously crashes on on bends. And one of the other big problems is his junctions. You know, we know someone that was wiped out on a junction as well. And it's a very big problem. What's your best sort of junction survival advice, if you like? Yeah, assume you're invisible. Right. Yeah, you know, that's the only thing you can do really scrub the speed The other thing is the standard thing of watching the front wheel of vehicles about to emerge because that gives you the earliest warning that's starting to move but I mean Right drivers will look straight at you and pull out in front of you. Yeah, not actually focused on you I think we just have to assume you invisible you had the other week. I had it Yeah a couple of weeks ago and and I saw this fan pulling out and I'd seen him and for me, I made a mistake because I thought actually he started to go. I started to scrub some speed off thinking, you know, he'll be out of the way. But then he had a 12 foot trailer on the back and it wasn't the van, I nearly went into the of the trailer. He was towing and he'd obviously forgotten he had the trailer on the back. All these guys said in the coms was well, I won't tell you. The air went blue. But the other thing I remember picking up on the IM is the moving around on the road as well coming to a junction just to try because they're not programmed to see us either. We make up such a small percentage of the of the vehicle population, if you like. And certainly this time of year, they're not used to seeing us. And then we're suddenly there again. And they just don't. I mean, there's been lots of studies as known in terms of whether whether they actually there's a truck behind it. They just see the truck. They won't see the bike. So is moving around the road ⁓ advantageous or does that, what's your thoughts on that? mean, what's, other than, than, than be aware and, and you're visible, but is there anything you can do in terms of your position? Other road users wonder what the hell you do. Warming up my tires. You position yourself to have the best view to see and be seen. And I don't, I don't know if it makes it probably makes a bit of a difference if you're wiggling about, but. One of the problems is if you're wiggling from side to side and you have to break, you ain't gonna be upright. So it's gonna take you longer to stop. So just assume you're invisible. So what about the staggered formation when we obviously ride, we ride in the staggered formation. That must have a bit more of an impact for visual for the driver, is it? Sure, The more riders are, the better. There's a lot of multiple motorcycle crashes. That's the only other problem. When you think about it, if you staggered and it's normally a second, know, so you're two seconds sort of behind the rider in front, but there's one in between over one side. just going back to Martin talking about the van pulling up with the trailer. It was myself, Andrew and Tom had already just passed him. So when we went past him, He didn't, just thought, ⁓ there's the bikes gone. He didn't think of any other bikes. And I think that's why he pulled out. So you were invisible. Like Mike said, you were invisible. he didn't see it. He literally didn't see it. Whereas if we'd all, but also if we'd been riding too close together and he'd taken out you, we probably all would have been taken out. yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's difficult. There's a thing called the science of being seen. Kevin, you can't remember his second name. does it and it's part of biker down. But anything that helps riders realise that they're not going to be seen, it's got to be good. Just there's something about data that you've expressed some thoughts on as well in terms of the crash statistics has been quite poor that's been reported. What would you say is missing from that data? What sort of contributory factors? Yeah, certainly. Yeah, because, you know, telematics data is on vehicles now. I mean, obviously we don't want to push for that on motorcycles, but you know, the stats that you get reported, they kind of missing things? They very rarely collect the data. They're known as EDRs, Event Data Recorders. And I happen to inform you You've probably got one on your bike. Michael: is just not publicised because somebody's not going to buy one if they know we're going have an accident somebody's going to know exactly what they've been doing Admin: is just not publicized because it's not somebody's not going to buy one. If they know we're never an accident, somebody's going to know exactly what they've been doing. OK, where's the bike? ⁓ I have an old KTM 2007, so I am safe. But now the police, I don't think they're trained. I don't think they have the equipment and it's not a priority. But when you think now with helmet cams, ⁓ dash cams, traffic cams, EDRs on vehicles, you could actually reconstruct a number of collisions and you'd know pretty well what the factors were. And you find out immediately with bikes, they can't I think if they got themselves ⁓ you know, with modern software, ⁓ it would be probably quite easy. But knowing what it's like, everybody's got different software. I'll just tell you one story. One of my friends has got a new BMW. His name's not Andrew, is it? Don't laugh, don't laugh. He came out at the end of his road, a bit enthusiastic of the throttle, lost the back end and the thing's sort of spinning around on its own in the middle of the road and he's chasing it, trying to stop it. And he stops it and then sort of takes a big sigh of relief. His phone rings. You fix it up, it's BMW. Are you all right? ⁓ And that technology has been around in cars for over a decade. you think those things are useful? Michael: I've definitely, I mean one of the problems is if you have a crash out in the rural road is somebody might know for quite a hours. So I mean an app on your phone is the obvious thing because you've got accelerometers in the phone and you know if you've, you know you could slide off and be unlucky but if you hit anything you know anything over one and a half G or 2G it's just... Admin: Definitely. mean one of the problems is if you have a crash out in the rural road is somebody might know for quite a few hours. So I mean an app on your phone is the obvious thing because you've got accelerometers in the phone and you know if you've you know you could slide off and be unlucky but if you hit anything you know anything over one and a half G or 2G just alerts the emergency services. Yeah, that's got to be a good thing. There might be something coming. Yes, might be something coming in the future. We'll have it as a testimonial. Thanks Mike. So Mike, think, you know, we've been talking a lot of things tonight around safety and, you know, good practice on roads. But I'm thinking, if there's people who are watching the podcast and thinking, I'm looking to get into biking, it all sounds a bit serious and a bit sensible. Can biking still be fun? absolutely. ⁓ just got to make certain you're trained properly. ⁓ know, ⁓ it's difficult with the current structure, but there are people that can train you. You've got the ⁓ enhanced rider scheme. They're proper. licensed trainers they've had a minimum of a week's training you know they know how to train they know how to ride and they're there but they only do a thousand a year yeah where would you and it's not expensive it's sort 200 250 quid for the day and it's it's you've got bike safe yeah i'd recommend the im and rosper and anything But you need a sanity check. Yes, you know don't do anything that you don't feel is safe. Yeah. Yeah, you know if I tell you about my Ross but trying it Which they changed the year after after we all complained it would make the hair on your head stand up You know because it was typical ex-police. It was like boot camp But they don't do it anymore. Hopefully. And the thing is, you know, we all want to go out there. We want to enjoy riding bikes. We want to have fun. But at the end of the day, we all want to come back safe, safe as well. that's really important, really important. It is. But it's such a fantastic experience. You know, when you actually get competent and yeah, you're bit apprehensive and you need to stay alert. There's nothing like it. And it doesn't have to be half as dangerous as it is. But I don't know whether you're aware of the problem with young riders, are you? No, I was going to come on to that. mean, Tom, technically not necessarily a young rider, but I think I haven't been involved in road safety for quite a long time. It never goes away, you know, in terms of what do you think specifically is the problem with the young drivers, young riders at the moment? Well, 40 % of young riders below the age of 19 are underage. Right. Some of the others won't have a license. OK, so you mean they call it dirty riding. Right. So you mean they're riding between somewhere between half and 80 percent of the problem. OK, so you mean these are younger riders who are haven't taken their tests. They're just jumping on bikes. Yep. OK. Yeah. That's quite a big problem. And to be honest. Worst thing is, it's gone up 50 % since just before COVID. And is that urban riding Mike or is that country roads? It's mostly urban riding I think. I mean, I'll be honest, you know, we've all seen the, you know, young lads with balaclavas riding around and, but, I think that's the thing, isn't it? You know, we, I've seen, you know, young lads riding around massive bikes. And I'm thinking, how on the earth are you doing that? And then you suddenly realize they haven't passed their test. They just got a bike and they're riding it. Yeah. When I think about my, my youth and I, so I was a teenager in the eighties, ⁓ all of my, all of my sorted mates all went out bikes, all of them, ⁓ all went, went like the ER fifties and things like Suzuki's and things that were out at that point in the back end of the seventies, early eighties. and then went on to Honda 125s and went through the actual process to do their bike test. And I don't see a great deal of young people wanting to learn to ride a motorcycle anymore. You don't see a great deal. it's always when you see somebody with an L plate on, think, ⁓ great, there's somebody that's going to continue. And you do see those people, Martin, you've described, you do see those people, which always a little bit, it grieves me a little bit because I just feel like we all get labeled as motorcyclists and am I just being a bit snobby? don't know. But I don't know where the young people are, but it's interesting to learn from Mike tonight, know, that that huge number of urban riders that are getting caused in accidents or being knocked off vehicles or crashing vehicles or whatever. I suppose the other element is, I mean, I was reading an article the other day saying that, you know, if you're a young person, and I'm saying really old now, then actually getting into biking is too expensive. So by the time you've paid for your test, you've bought all the protective gear, you've bought your bike, then let alone trying to insure something as a young, you know, so you can see why people are taking that risk and just saying, I won't bother, I'll just jump straight on. Sorry, you've just lit another match underneath me. I hate to see people riding the bike in... in flip flops or just not wearing the proper kit. It drives me drives me barmy. I just think, you know, people need to wear the appropriate legal legally. They only legally need to wear a helmet. Yeah. And well, yes. So my my statement is a bit silly there saying legal kit. They should be wearing. And I think that's government need to maybe look at that as well and say, you know, if you're riding a bike, you need to be wearing these things as a minimum. Sorry I went on the rant there Mike, sorry about that. I've got some, some, well, what were classes, I don't know, going to be controversial, but some questions we're going to ask you. So what, would you say is the biggest myth in motorcycling right now? suppose the myth is that you can stop ⁓ high speed. ⁓ it's not a problem. ⁓ mean, it's not so much a myth, it's just nobody actually realizes it. You know, the other myth is this, ⁓ the front brake into corners gives you more grip, more feel, and it's more sensible and ⁓ that sort of ⁓ But ⁓ marketing in my opinion. It's nothing to do with common sense. But you know, would say to people, forget all the biking thing. If you're in a car, do you feel safer breaking into a corner or breaking before a corner than driving around? Same thing. Yeah. Couple of extra wheels. yeah, I think that's it. A lot of people don't understand grip and it is complicated because obviously it moves from front to back and and it's limited. But you shouldn't really get anywhere near using up all your grip apart from your rear brake. So that's the only real danger you've got is snatching the front or not releasing the rear brake as the weight goes forward. Makes sense. A lot of people, a lot of rubbish talked about grip, unfortunately, and what's best to do and feeling for grip and stuff like that. mean that's such a ridiculous thing I mean if you're Rossi you you're lent at 60 degrees and the bike that is the tires are designed to slip it's like understeer yeah so the top guys are going into a corner and it's not quite going on the line they wanted and they know they've very slightly overdone it And to suggest that you could do that on the road is just ludicrous. There's a lovely clip out at the moment, Mike, where one of the old riders is talking about Marquez coming into a corner and you see Marquez riding this beautiful Ducati coming into a corner, braking hard. And he's talking about how the front of the bike collapses down towards the front wheel. And the back wheel doesn't come up because of the technology that's in the bike. And then he talks about him going into the corner and you can see he's still on the front brake going into the corner. And then he takes his hand off the front brake and he starts applying the back brake to pull the bike in again into the apex. And he's talking about all this and you think, yeah, that's great, but I'm not Marques. I'm not Marques, I'm Andy from Teesside. And also if you come off, you've got a runoff area and a bit of a gravel. If you come off on the road. You're in a ditch, in a field, in a bush, up a tree. And it's a fabulous clip and I love Marques. I think it's absolutely fabulous. Just like Rossy. ⁓ you lost me halfway through what you explaining then. But the thing is, they're on the same bit of time, They've gone round the corner a thousand times before. Yeah. Yeah, there's no new hazards. Mike, I've just got one quick one for you. So when you're talking about grip, so obviously grip in the wet. gripping the dryer completely different that's controversial people say that you've still got the same amount of grip in the wet as you do in the dry how do you see that it's actually pretty close okay it's it's ⁓ the problem is if the water sort of gets between the tire and the road so if you've got standing water or water running across the road it can sort of lift the tire up it's like a bit like aquaplane right ⁓ But if you look at the videos, you can get the back wheel in the air on a wet road. You've just got to be more careful not to snatch the brakes. Yeah. And you can't lean quite as far, but that shouldn't really affect road riders. Okay. So only about 45 degrees. think that's one of the other problems. You know, when it's raining, everybody's frightened to break. Yeah. Yeah. And once again, when did you last practice breaking the wax? Yes. And tire pressures as well, They do make a difference. They do on a track. I'm not totally certain on the road, as long as you're within a few BSI. It doesn't really make a lot of difference. That was my next question was to do BSI. Because obviously the manufacturers say, depending obviously for the bike and then for the tire, it would be like 36 in the front and 42 in the back. But obviously every time I go out before I go out, check my higher pressures and put them as close as you can to that. But either way, it doesn't really make much difference as long as you're within one or two PSI, maybe below or above. Is that right or wrong? Michael: Yeah, I don't think it makes a lot of difference. It alters the running temperature of the tyre, but that varies a lot depending on how quickly you're All I can tell you, the last time I was at Donington, my tyre pressure gauge was slightly low and I melted the front tyre on my R6. But that's really unusual and it was a really hot day and that was me being stupid. Admin: Yeah, I don't think it makes a ⁓ lot of difference. It alters the running temperature of the tire, but that varies a lot depending on how quickly you're going. All I can tell you, the last time I was at Donington, my tire pressure gauge was slightly low and I melted the front tire on my R6. But that's really unusual and it was a really hot day and that was me being stupid. ⁓ I used to have one of them by the way. I loved it. I loved it. It's all he talks about. ⁓ Stop on a stamp. bike. Yeah. So you you had no fun. That was on a Honda CBR 600. ⁓ but yeah, had a, and I had a GSX 600 as well, but I much preferred the Yamaha was fabulous bike. Wow. Yeah. So talking about that, we've been asking, ⁓ our guests and we've been asking ourselves, ⁓ you know, What would be your dream bike? I really like the 660 Aprilia and I sat on it in the Superbike factory and I thought I've got to one of these. Then I went home and I looked at my 1999 RC and thought it's older. It looks nice. Very nice bike. It's a bit quicker. It's lovely bike. Yeah. Tom just bought this, put that up on the screen. Yeah. That's a very lovely bike. So we'll drop that in the edit someone. Yeah. was all drooling. That's what I'm Anything to do with bikes, end up drooling. I've kind of got, well, before we go on to the kind of those questions we don't ask. And I think it's kind of to get your view on it. If you had 10 million pounds to improve a rider safety, what would you, what would you do? Well, I'd get some independent research on emergency braking, starting in a straight line. Yeah. And then I'd set up centers nationally. We need about a thousand feet of tarmac and try and get people to come and have a go. Yeah. And make sure there was a team of paramedics there for those people without ABS. just train as many riders as I could. Mike, I got a quick one for you then. Do you think advanced training should be mandatory? Not as it is at the moment. Interesting. really need your CPD, your continual professional development really. But it needs structuring properly. The annoying thing is the enhanced rider scheme, the DVSA, ticks all the boxes, but it's never promoted. I don't quite know why it... sort of started not that well and got worse just deteriorated. only doing a thousand a year. saves seven and half thousand. So you need to promote it. What I would do is for commercial testing make certain everybody is regulated. So they're a DVSA licensed trainer. There's an argument that that would require a change in the law. But when you think every other vehicle, you need to be a licensed trainer to train commercially on the road, but not a motorbike. Not for the most dangerous road users, the ones at the highest risk. It's just nuts. It needs doing the whole structures there, training, licensing, check testing, standards, the whole shebang. they were interested. So just for those that are listening, what can the average rider listening today do this week to reduce the risk bearing in mind we're about to go into what I would say is the biking season again, what can they be doing other than I think breaking in straight line, pumping their tires up, the other things you mentioned, what would you recommend? I'd say breaking of course, but just really taking it easy. Yeah. You know, Is it safe? But is it necessary? That's a good solid. There's loads of advice. There's the I'm safe thing. You know, are you feeling okay? ⁓ Michael: say breaking of course, but ⁓ really taking it easy. ⁓ know, is it safe? But is it necessary? You know, ⁓ loads of advice. There's the I'm safe thing, you know, are you feeling okay? ⁓ Admin: Don't take Michael: I always tell people on our days are I ask everybody put their hands up if they were snorting coke the night I always tell people on our days are I ask everybody put their hands up if they were snorting coke the night Admin: The one thing I always tell people our track days are I ask everybody put their hands up if they were snorting coke the night before ⁓ and nobody ever does. ⁓ And then I say, who's been smoking weed the night before? Nobody ever does. ⁓ The one thing I always tell people our track days are I ask everybody put their hands up if they were snorting coke the night before ⁓ and nobody ever does. ⁓ And then I say, who's been smoking weed the night before? Nobody ever does. ⁓ And they all look at me and I say, the reason I've asked that question is if you were snorting coke last night, you'll be all right today. If you're smoking marijuana, you won't. I don't know whether that's actually advice, We'll have to some consultation on that. And they all look at me and I say, the reason I've asked that question is if you were snorting coke last night, you'll be all right today. If you're smoking marijuana, you won't. I don't know whether that's actually advice, We'll have to some consultation on that. You are talking about Coca Cola, aren't you? He's not allowed it anyway. So do you want to, I know we ask. Well, yeah, I've got a few questions, just quick play questions, but just, just going back to the tractor. Is that in Lynx? that, is that a Cadwell park then Mike? You do the, do the tractor? We used to be at Blighton Park and we're not anymore. it's, I don't really want to discuss it. That's fine. Right. Okay. We've had to give, this year a break on the tracks and we're back finding an alternative venue for next year. So we're actually concentrating on road training this year. We're launching a national service around Easter time and they'll all be DVSA enhanced rider scheme licensed trainers. So we've got a year on the road. Oh, wonderful. We might have to sign up for that. I think I've been saying this for a while, Mike. I think we need to come down and show you how bad we really are. And I think that the first thing you're going to get us to do is a straight line break and then we're all going to be very competitive about who can pull in point 9G. I we definitely want to do and what we could probably do is that we'll bring some cameras. I mean, I've talked about this before, Mike, but I think let's bring some cameras. I think personally, I really want to come and do it. And certainly having that incident a few years ago. It does undermine your confidence a little bit for some time when you get back on the bike. But then you quickly forget it. But I think we all want to be the best kind of riders that we can be, you know, but it's like, where do we go and do that? You know, so I think that if you're if you're open for us to come down, yeah, then then absolutely we'd love to do that. And maybe when if it ties in with what you're about to announce or what's what's coming, I think that would be quite good. We can we can certainly pull that and put on the podcast or pretty. maybe put it on the channel. think that would work quite well. Go on then, ask there. So we've got a few quick, quick fire questions for you, Mike. And we've already asked you one of them, which is about the money was no object. What bike would you buy? So I'm just interested to learn who would who was or who is your motorcycle hero? It's got to be Kenny Roberts. Good one. Good one. Now that could really open up a lot of debate couldn't it? I've got the other guy up on the wall up here you know from that very famous race with Kenny where I think Kenny still won that race or didn't he when Barry did a rude gesture behind his back? Yeah yeah I was there. were you there? You don't look old enough Mike. The reason Barry lost it was Carl Fogger, his dad. Got some big names going on here. I remember watching that on TV, watching that race on TV at that time. Motorcycle racing was all over TV, wasn't it? It was all over the sports channels and then it seems to have gone on to satellite TV now. But yeah, Kenny Roberts were a great, great, great shout. ⁓ Favourite place to ride your bike? Well, I spent three weeks riding around New Zealand. You can't beat it. Do know we do have somebody who was a fan of the show keeps asking to invite us he's got a house in New Zealand keeps asking to go down and ride New Zealand and I think maybe we will. it really that good? But on your recommendation I think we need to start looking at flights. It's fantastic. The people are lovely. It's like going back 50 years. You don't have to look your bike. There's not many dual carriageways. You need a supermoto. It's all bends and twists. Does that come with It's just lovely. Does that come with the chain? got everything from from glaciers to sort of semi-tropical rainforests. Wow. Everything. It does come with the chain. I've got to how to maintain a chain. ⁓ And final question, Mike, is if you're going out and you had a couple of quid in your pocket and you're going to go and buy your and accessory, what would it be? Would it be a helmet? Would it be boots? Would it be gloves? What would it be or something else? ⁓ that's interesting. I'd probably buy a data logger. I mean, I've got one. I've got a curve X one, but if I didn't have one, ⁓ having got one and used it, it's about the most useful thing you can do because you can rerun your ride. and see your lean angles, braking, accelerating. It gives you an opportunity to really sort of analyze your riding in detail. To be honest, I've got so many jackets, boots. think I've got 20 pairs of gloves at least. you know, three bikes. I don't really need anything else to be honest. How many helmets, Mike? I've got three current ones and I've thrown the rest away. That's okay. can my wife. I can tell my wife you've got more helmets than me so I can get a new one. ⁓ Is there any particular brand that you're loyal to Mike or is it more to do with a particular style of a helmet or is it that you're brand loyal? No. ⁓ I always tell the story. Heine Gerica when they were around. Did some fantastic gear and this Gore-Tex jacket, which I saw hung me nose over but it was over 500 quid and They used to at Lincoln showground the end of the year have a sale of all their returns. I go over there at three o'clock because then I don't have to pay to get in and I'm there in their tent and I find one of these jackets It's got one popper missing and it says 50 quid on it. And I'm standing there looking at it thinking it's got to be worth 50 quid. And then a voice come over the tan eye, any jacket 30 quid. I rushed to the till. ⁓ But it's difficult. It's very difficult knowing you're going to get good value for money. There are obviously top brands. that you can rely on. I've got Dainese kit, which I always found really good. ⁓ But it's difficult. It's difficult because a lot of it's marketing. Thank you, Mike. Thank you. ⁓ Great. Yeah, from the team. Thank you very much, Mike, for coming on and giving us some some very interesting things to think about and also the viewers to think about and probably the industry to think about. But yeah, think definitely we'll get that in the diary and we'll come down and show you how bad we are. Be kind, Mike, be kind. You won't be the worst. Oh, you haven't seen it yet. And we are competitively the worst. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Great. It's been really interesting. Thanks again, Mike. Generally speaking, I'm talking to myself most of the time. It makes a change to have an audience. Fantastic. Right, we'll see you all in the next episode of the podcast and you can like and subscribe if you want to. But yeah, we'll be back next time with some more interesting guests. Goodbye for now.