Latest / Found in AI: AI Search Visibility, SEO, & GEO / Are AI Visibility Tools Measuring the Wrong Things?

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Are AI Visibility Tools Measuring the Wrong Things? · Found in AI: AI Search Visibility, SEO, & GEO

• 0:43
  unknown: All right.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us who you are, what you do, all the things.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: We'll start there.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my name's Peter Rhoda.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've been in the SEO field for 15 years now.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: I currently work in-house for Hub International doing technical SEO.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Heavy focused on a lot of AI recently.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the side, I do um freelance and then posting on LinkedIn.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Happy to be here.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, thanks for joining us.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you've done a lot of sponsored work with those AI visibility tools, which means you've had the demo, the onboarding, the sales pitch, every bit of it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like from where you're standing like compared to what a normal buyer sees?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean, I'm able to see everything, the whole process, and then eventually able to actually use the product.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And what the biggest thing I'm seeing right now is they give you the data, and that looks great, but they're not really tying it to an action, or they don't make it particularly easy to execute, or why these things are important.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the biggest thing I'm running into, especially.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we use Bright Edge, and it's even a little bit more actionable, but we still have to manually find ways to connect the data and beyond just reporting for sake of reporting.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I've I've looked at a couple of the different tools, and some of them are just giving straight out numbers.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're finding that most of them aren't giving you recommendations.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um they do, but it's kind of pretty generic.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like reach out to so-and-so and get mentioned on here.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's never like thought out, it's very like high level.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like really personalized.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how I'd say.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So compared to like the traditional SEO reporting tools that we all know and love, and the tools that are coming out for AS search optimization, like what's one thing that you wish would carry over from the traditional SEO to these new tools?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I would say it goes back to the actionable action actionability, excuse me, and just making it a bit more actionable.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think a lot of the tools, like I mentioned, they have data, and that's great, but there's just there's it's often like it just they make it hard to impact the stuff.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what I'm seeing the hardest thing being.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um another thing is they're a lot of them are very expensive.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, SEO tools are not cheap, but some of these tools are up to like$3,000 a month, which you might as well just get a new SEO for that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think they'll definitely come down.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: There are some that are a lot cheaper, but yeah, I mean, some of the bigger ones are very expensive.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've noticed that.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I've not I've been hesitant to recommend a tool on the show or even in the newsletter that I sent out on Fridays, just because the budget range goes from, oh, here's the$20 a month one to here's one that's$3,000 a month, and that's just a wild range in between.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So for the lower end price tools, the ones that are reasonable, um those tools are are you seeing that they're often giving those recommendations along with the visibility score that makes it?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked this because there was one that I demoed that was giving ranking in chat GPT, and we know now that you can't rank in chat GPT, but it was somehow given a score for that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I've never really taken account too much to the visibility score because that's based on prompts.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And as we know, that's not really a full encompassing view versus say if you use an HFS or SAMRussian, it's going to give you a much better idea of what you're ranking for.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's basing that on that.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's I guess it's better than nothing, but I mean, unfortunately, these tools, they've these LLMs, they've not really provided particularly data, too much data as far as like how you're showing up and things like that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not, I mean, I'm I'm trying to be optimistic on that, but I've never been like super optimistic because like if they give that away, then that kind of gives away their business model.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And Google did that, and obviously they have APIs, but these LMs I think are trying to be a bit more secretive, so no, I feel like no one copies them and understands them.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which which makes a lot of sense.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've got some thoughts on there, but that's unrelated to tools.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But no, we'll we'll save that conversation for another day.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some of the metrics that these tools are giving you, what would you say, like just across the board, generic kind of metric, which one would you say is the best one that you should be looking for when you're looking for a tool to purchase or subscribe to?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh good question.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think a lot of them are very similar, but I think anyone that's gonna break out mentions and um citations, I've seen some where they combine them together, which isn't super helpful because I feel like being cited and being mentioned are very two different things.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like um kind of yeah, I mean, I would say that, and then also ones that are just making it a bit easier to understand the data.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a lot of them they have very overwhelming dashboard, and there's a lot of stuff going on, so whatever you can understand is a bit easier.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think another thing is like obviously ones that are more actionable.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm sponsored by a few, so I don't want to like play favorites, but I think um the best thing is to do diff basically get a different around uh excuse me, demo with a few different places and kind of get an idea of how they actually explain to you how it solves issues beyond just reporting for the sake of reporting.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think a lot of these tools when they first came out and they're they're getting better, but it's like they provided the data, but they didn't provide what happens after that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of like we sold you something and now we have to actually deliver on it.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's a what a lot of them are running into right now.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I've I've noticed, I've noticed, which is again why I've not brought tools up, because it's like, ah, we're still pretty early on all of this.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what is the line between this tool is kind of early and rough compared to this tool is measuring something that we really need to pay attention to?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I would say like they're all pretty similar.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, as far as like what to actually measure, I think the most helpful things are actually part of well, so it's part of some tools, but I would say the most useful thing is actually like how it's not sorry, it's not too specific, but basically going to the LLMs and actually seeing if it understands your brand and if that lines up with what's actually on your site.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I gave a webinar recently about where it's like visibility is important, citation dimensions are important, but the most important thing is to first understand is your LLM sorry, is your website basically referencing the stuff that the LLM is also in line with?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So making sure there's not this perception gap between what you think of your company and what LLMs think of your company.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point, which kind of brings me to something that I've been reading about on Reddit recently.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And anybody that knows me now, I'm like really big on trying to find out what people are saying on Reddit about AI search visibility because there are so many different stuff about it now.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of the arguments recently is that if you're tracking any of this either with a tool or just manually, you don't need to be tracking citations, you should be tracking the mentions, which goes back to what your website says about you and what the LLMs say about you.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because that was a hot topic that day.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was reading that topic.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and yeah, I mean, that's a great point slash question.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, personally, I would rather be mentioned, but I mean, my kind of hierarchy for like KPIs, and I don't think any tool even provides it yet, is like being recommended, mentioned, and then cited.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that's kind of my degree, my hierarchy of like what's most important.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think citations are important, but really you want to make sure there are actually prompts and things that are actually further down, maybe the middle of the bottom, the funnel versus here you're showing up for informational prompt and you're being cited.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's they might not even visit your website.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it just matters based on the prompts.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, definitely going back to being recommended and mentioned and then cited, I'm putting like at the bottom.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of what the original poster had said.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, it it doesn't matter how many times you're cited, as if people aren't really being told about you, then it doesn't really matter.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I know a lot of these tools are tracking those citations more so than they are the actual mentions or the recommendations.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it's I dare to say, like, it's not 100% a vanity metric, but I feel like it's on the borderline of being a bit um a vanity metric.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think you might be right.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um you just mentioned you just mentioned your prompt list.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we do with that in terms of what these metrics are giving us?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: As far as like next steps or um both.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we're looking at these tools and we're looking at here's our prompt list, what do we do with it now?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do we do?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do we fix our strategy?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, if you have a prompt data and basically you're looking at it, you if you're basically seeing your competitors being mentioned or cited in places you want to be in, ideally you would want to come up there.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I mean you want to have like prompts that are really tied to like lower down in the buyer's journey, because if you can find those, you're gonna get more insight and basically be able to um kind of just show up better.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if I have like a 100% answer, but that's kind of along the way I'm going.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now um last question, because we we've talked about some of these tools being kind of pricey and some of them being less pricey.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: If a team or an individual can only afford one thing this year, like either the tool or hiring someone to do this, which one would you suggest that they do?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd probably say the person because um I would say SEO is probably 70 to 80 percent of the actual success of showing up in LLMs.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond that, it's just making sure you're um becoming a brand and differentiating yourself and actually doing broader marketing and then looking at prologs, for example, and trying to better understand where you're coming up there.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would say that's gonna take you most of the way.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the stuff, like I mentioned, um if you you can still report on like conversions and AI traffic and things like that.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, I think if you have insights into that, that's gonna be more helpful versus here's some more metrics and what are we actually gonna do with it, and what action steps do we need to take?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's a that's a good that's a good pause in the recording.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you're right on that last part.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna stop it so that we don't turbo scribe doesn't.