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Demystifying diversity · Two in Twenty

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Two and Twenty, the news podcast from the team at White Marble Consulting.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kirsten Hastings, Head of Content at White Marble.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: In each episode, I will be joined by two industry experts to lift the lid on investment marketing issues, challenges, and industry trends.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Featuring in this episode, we have Mary Laura Humbert, a senior executive coach and educator within a London-based asset management firm, and Elisa Magistrale, marketing consultant at White Marble.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Over the next 20 or so minutes, we will be delving into the topic of culture, specifically as it pertains to diversity.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, Mary Laure, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and the work that you do in the diversity and inclusion space?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Diversity has been the theme of my life and career.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: At the beginning, I started actually as a marketing major from university in the UK.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a linguist, and then I fell into finance.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I had a career that was very fun on the trading floor, various countries, selling uh financial products.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then I sort of a transition over the time, was very interested in people and became an executive coach, more of a personal interest than a grand plan, if you like.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then starting coaching clients, and life took me through again more uh interesting places until I was looking for a role.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't very sure what I wanted to do.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then I saw this role in this investment management company, uh, which was very interesting, where you know they were looking for someone with language skills and market skills and coaching uh to work with clients.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: So fast forward to today, that's what I do.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an educator, I work with our clients on various business uh development tactics, on personal development and leadership strategies, but we also have a big chunk of our work, which is around industry trends and what is really important.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where uh obviously diversity and inclusion has taken a big, big piece of my time, which is fantastic.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've been working with clients uh on their strategy around diversity and inclusion, and we've also raised awareness a lot on that topic with especially female clients uh over the years.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a big believer in starting with definitions.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, Mary Laura, when we're talking about diversity, what do we mean?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a great question to ask.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought about it and you think about it, you know.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I saw sometimes when I want to talk about diversity, think about a bunch of flowers with different types of flowers.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is exactly the same where you have a wide range of human beings with different qualities and attributes and experiences within a group or an organization.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the first part.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the second part, the inclusion part, is about being able to recognize and respect and value these differences, uh, whether they are gender, sexual orientation, age, ethnicity, and more.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say it's about creating that environment where everyone, no matter what their background is, can succeed and feel a sense of belonging, right?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Which is where we're gonna talk about culture, I know, but that's the key part.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to add as well, when I was thinking about this question, um, I think what is required also is the right mindset.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to take a moment to quote Carol Dweck, who is the uh Stanford psychology professor on mindset and talks to us about growth mindset and fixed mindset.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and a growth mindset is interesting, and I think it is required to have a strong diverse culture.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's about this ability to learn and to be curious and to be open, to collaborate.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: A growth mindset is foundational to also have a very good experience with diversity.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Elisa, does that track with you?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know that a lot of your background and your interest is specifically around cognitive diversity.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Cognitive diversity is the way individual and teams think about, engage during challenging new complex situations.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's been proven with research that the more cognitive diverse teams are, the better they perform.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is with cognitive diversity that is less visible than other types of diversity.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you really need to dig deeper to find cognitive diverse individuals.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Also, there are naturally some cultural biases because people tend to be to engage with other individuals that they perceive being like them, thinking like them, and having the same emotions.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And these very often happen during the recruitment process, and the consequence of this is that you end up having very less diverse organizations with like-minded people.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Financial services has traditionally been one of those industries that really has been most heavily criticized for its lack of diversity.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maryland, in light of your background and all the information you've just shared, do you think that's still a fair thing to say?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I think progress is being made slowly.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a greater awareness on the benefits of diversity.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in the UK, I've been talking about diversity in many countries, and I can say that the UK is doing pretty well.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, we've got some reporting helping, you know, around, for example, the accountability created around gender pay gap reporting.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a greater awareness on the benefits of women on boards, although we don't have a regulation here in the UK.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: We do have one in France, right?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the willingness for companies to measure DNI.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there is progress.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I also really like, you know, when I'm asked questions like this, I always like to come back on data because I want people to maybe judge for themselves how progress is made.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: The data I'd like to lean on is uh the research that the Investment Association published late in November 2023.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: They have a questionnaire where they've uh surveyed 52 uh investment and fund management companies in the UK.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that represents about 50,000 people, which is quite a fair sample.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just gonna give you a little bit of data on points like gender, for example, in our industry.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: 55% male, 39% female.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ethnicity, 60% predominantly white.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: And they also looked at the Asian population and black population and compared it.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it was quite an interesting way of comparing it as a benchmark looking at the London weighting for this population.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Asian employees count for 10% versus 21% of the London population, and black employees count for 2% versus 14% of the London population.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we look at sexual orientation, 55% identify as straight or heterosexual, and 2% of the population self-identified as LGBTQ, which is around the 4% of the London population.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: But there is also something really interesting, maybe for another day, but I want to bring it up here, is there is a large margin of people between 29 and 40% who have opted out in terms of self-disclosing.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're coming right back to this question of culture, of being able to feel authentic and not to fear reprisals because I raised my hand to say I'm black or I'm LGBTQ.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was an interesting point.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: When we're talking about culture within an organization, a lot of people still assume that that is the purview of HR.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: But we know through the surveys that we've done at White Marble, Alisa, that it it's the responsibility of everybody within the company, isn't it?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh, totally agree, Kirsten.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think the top-down approach of building and maintaining the corporate culture has gone, um, especially since COVID, the dynamics of behavior among employees and between employees and uh managers has changed.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Corporate culture has become more important and has become a strategic priority for companies, even in the financial services industry.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to mention Denise Li Yong, who is an expert in brand leadership, and she talks about share responsibility.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone within an organization is responsible and accountable for building and maintaining an inclusive culture.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes there is a gap between the current culture within an organization and the desire culture, which is the ideal culture that would allow an organization to achieve their goals and their strategies.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we've seen in Culture Audi that we've conducted with our clients at Y Marble that very often the emotions, behaviors that come up from the surveys related to the current culture are very different from those values that are chosen by the same interviewee for an ideal culture where they would be safe to be themselves and to perform at their best.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: The issue is that very often these values of the desired culture are the one that are publicly promoted by the said company on the outside, and that inevitably create a feeling of lack of authenticity and transparency.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I like your point here because a lot of the work I do with teams very often on culture is exactly that is how do we see core beliefs, we see values and principles on our website, we hear our CEO tell us that.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: But at your level, that's a question I often ask is how do we live and breathe these values every day?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean for us when we interact with each other, when we interact with our clients and colleagues?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's these little gaps of intervention that needs to be addressed, giving the opportunity for teams and to reflect on that.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if we talk about excellence, what does it look like at our level?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: What do we mean by that?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I completely agree with you.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think that everyone has a role to play and very much depends on the function that they have in the organization.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we were talking about that when we met the other day, Marilo, that sometimes the middle management is critical in enforcing and promoting a positive and generative culture.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: But oftentimes middle managers don't feel or are not empowered to make the change or don't feel that they have enough influence like other leaders in making a change.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know it's funny?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: I had a conversation right this morning about this topic with a client and how the need to focus on managers.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And being a manager is a very tricky role because you're very much into the weeds, you're very much on the doing, on actioning items.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I was saying to her that maybe there should be a program where we developing manager as leader and developing some sort of strategic thoughts and tools for leadership for these managers.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So they indeed feel part of it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's an interesting start to get around diversity on that, where the IA told us that for CEOs, 75% of CEOs of DNI as top of mind.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: They are strategic and they understand the actual importance of diversity and inclusion today and in the future.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that percentage goes down to 55% when it's at manager level.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's a bit of work to do there.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to this proactive approach by organization, there is also more and more pressure from the regulator around diversity and collecting data around diversity within financial services.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: There are some recent consultation papers around diversity and inclusion in financial services by the FCA.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the proposal is to make mandatory for firms to publicly show their DEI policies and also to collect and publish their data around diversity on an annual basis.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: In a scenario, I'm an employer and I want to hire somebody to fill a job.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, what I'm looking for is somebody that's got a bit of an experience at the level that I need, that they can pick up tasks quickly, and ultimately I want to hire them to make my life a little bit easier.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is the incentive for me to hire somebody who, for example, is neurodivergent, who may require more support and flexibility than a very straightforward plug-and-play option?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Mary Laura, what are your thoughts there?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's take a step back and let's take a look at where we are today in terms of talent.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we talked, and I'm sure a lot of you have heard of that, the war for talent, which is happening, where attracting and keeping the right talent in the UK and other countries, you know, is a challenge.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Increased competition, which is due to purely or simply, first of all, democratic trends, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: We've got an aging population, we've got some skill shortages and some structural tightness in some sectors.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: But above all, there's a huge change in talent attitude towards work.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that means that we need to change, we need to adapt, and actually to attract the talent of tomorrow, guess what?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Our culture is going to be a very important part of what talent wants to see, a collaborative culture and diversity and inclusion.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of young people who say to me, Oh, I looked at the website of the company and there were no women, so I didn't apply, or there were no people of color, so I'm not applying.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a reality.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's about building your organization for the future, being able to win or at least be in a game in that competition for talent, and understanding what today is going to drive and motivate people.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not necessarily just money, it's also the flexibility, but the company purpose culture is going to play a crucial role.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we can see already that organization who prioritise diversity and inclusion, as well as professional development, I would say, are very, very well placed to attract and retain that talent.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would go back to cognitive diversity and the fact that there are years and years of research by Dr.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: David Lewis, who is director of the London Business School's Senior Executive Program, with whom at WaiMambo we've done some training around the quality of interaction.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis's research focuses on developing tools to enhance team and individual performance.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And based on his research, Dr.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis' conclusion was that the more cognitive diverse teams are, the more creative, more productive the company is.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely is a no-brainer to hire individuals who are different from us, who think in a different way, approach solutions in a different way, apply their own knowledge differently, because in the end you will have a better outcome.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So financial services, quite broadly, is going through a fairly challenging period.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: We can see in newspapers and updates from companies that there are hiring freezes and unfortunately, in some instances, redundancies.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Marilau, are you worried that that's going to mean a step or two backwards for inclusion?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's interesting.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I'm gonna split hairs here and bring a couple of definitions between recruitment and hiring.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Recruitment is this ongoing process where we want to attract and select and onboard candidates for the future.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's a more strategic approach.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Hiring is doing the same for a specific open role.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: So indeed, when there's a hiring freeze, nothing stops companies from continuing to recruit and actually use that time to build a very strong and diverse pipeline so that we all know in our industry when headcounts become available, you've got to grab them, you've got to be ready to go.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it can be a step backwards.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just an ongoing, and in fact, you have a bit more time to meet people, to select, and to be very strategic about the people you hire.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think also in challenging times, psychological safety will be relevant.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Psychological safety means that people, individuals, feel safe in the workplace, safe to be themselves, safe to think differently, without the fear of being isolated or punished for being different.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that psychological safety is the basis that allows any organization to flourish, but especially in challenging times, psychological safety will allow individuals to come up with different solutions, to collaborate without the fear of being different or expressing opinions that are uh not the most popular one, but at the same time find alternatives, walking on paths that have never tried before.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think it bears repeating, right at the very least.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Summarizing the points that you both have made throughout our conversation.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you were talking to somebody about the benefits of diversity and why companies should embrace it, what are the key points that you feel that they must understand?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Diversity is good for business.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let me take an example.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at funds with gender balance investment teams, they tend to generate better investment return, like 10 to 20% higher than those managed by a majority of male or female.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing we can't forget is that diversity attracts like-minded clients, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: We talk to a lot of uh institutional clients where more and more on the RFP the diversity question comes in, how many languages are spoken in your team, what's your gender balance, and so on.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to be really there to match a little bit what your client is requiring.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really, really powerful.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Just to Elisa's point earlier, the diversity of thoughts and experience definitely fosters innovation and a thinking outside the box attitude, right?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Which will help to keep the company on its growth path.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's also, you know, as I just said, uh a very good way to future proof your organization as a diverse and inclusive culture is going to be absolutely central to attract and retain talent.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: You actually don't have a choice because also demographically you have a more and more mixed population.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you just want to do the same as ever, you're going to completely miss that pool of talent.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: But also demographically, and we have more and more mixed cultures coming through the ranks.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Diversity is not only good for business, but organizations have no choice in the way that their working population need to reflect the diversity of the world outside.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's inevitable that they need to have a diverse and inclusive environment from age to race to gender to having cognitive diverse individuals, because also the solution and the services that this organization will offer will definitely have more impact if meets the likes of a diverse population on the outside.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So for our audience who are primarily investment marketers, my lor, what steps could they take to firstly understand their own company's culture and secondly improve it?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think Elisa actually mentioned this earlier, and I completely agree, like familiarizing yourself with a company's value set and belief and where we are at, sort of have a bit of uh an audit and just exactly what Elisa said with behavior, right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And observe these company values and norms on a day-to-day basis.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And do we have gaps?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Where are they?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And observe also leadership because they do lead by example.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, how are they communicating and living these values and norms externally but also internally and be authentic to make sure it resonates with everyone?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Again, Elisa mentioned the employee survey.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: In collaboration with HR, take the pulse, go deeper, and possibly a marketer can bring different ideas on how we can narrow those gaps.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also you can do a lot of work on the branding.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, how is the company perceived?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is it credible what this company is saying?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do clients believe it?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, really getting some feedback on that, it would be quite important and review obviously the collateral that goes out so it's aligned.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm not the specialist here, uh, Elisa is.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: You probably have some more ideas that you've done with your clients to share with us.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you've been great.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: You take all the boxes, but I would add maybe look at the social media channels of the company.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do they only talk about earnings, profits, or do they have other initiatives that are closer to your values?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And Marilo, you mentioned observing is very important.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Look at how people interact with their manager.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: What are their preferred ways to communicate?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just via email?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Where do they do lunch?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do they go out or do they just eat at the desk?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: What happens when someone makes a mistake?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are mistakes seen as an opportunity to blame an individual or an opportunity to grow and to learn?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: There are little things that people can can observe and understand the real values or what the main values of company are.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And ideally, you want to work in a company that shares your own values.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, I agree.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Throughout my coaching, that mindset work I do, I meet so many people in our industry who do have a fixed mindset.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: They don't value feedback, they believe they're only as good as their abilities, and then we say to me, Oh, I've got a growth mindset.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we unpack things, we just go, nah, you don't.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: And they realize and they go, Oh, okay.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: So how does that impact my management on people and so on?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that mindset work is absolutely crucial, and obviously how we therefore manage a mistake or learn from it or not.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I agree with you completely.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that brings us to the end of our 20 minutes.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: My thanks to Mary Laura and Alisa for sharing their insight and expertise.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any questions about diversity, corporate culture, or any other topic in this podcast, please do get in contact using the details in the description.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can subscribe through Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and Spotify.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: If there are any topics for investment marketers you would like 2 and 20 to cover, please do get in touch.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can also find episodes from our earlier podcasts, Aim High, on Google, Apple, and Spotify.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening, until next time.