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Gone without a Warrant · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: He says, Sarah, there's a real possibility that they can
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: be trying to take cal today. You need to get
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: out of the hospital. Do whatever you can to leave
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: the hospital.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I'm Patia Eaton. Today we're speaking with Sarah Perkins, and
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: we'll also hear from her husband, Josh Sabee, but he
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: had to leave the room a little early on in
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the interview to watch over their children. In July of
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Sarah and Josh had a new baby
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and he came down with a fever, so they took
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: him to the er. But a hospital visit that began
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: with concern over a fever ended up turning into a nightmare.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: It would involve the Department of Children and Family, law
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: enforcement and attorneys. The center of all of this was
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Sarah and Josh, two loving parents who were suddenly on
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the defensive. As a quick note, in the beginning, Josh
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: and Sarah have their baby with them in the room,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: so you might hear the baby in the background. Briefly,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: let's get into the interview.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Perkins. I grew up in Texas outside of Dallas,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: and I ended up meeting Josh at university and got
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: married while we were still in our undergraduate degrees, and
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: then we finished school ended up moving out east for
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: other schooling. I got my master's degree in North Carolina,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and then I got my doctoral degree in Boston.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: What were you looking forward to most about being parents?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Were you always wanting to have a family.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember feeling apprehensive about being a parent. You know.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: It's just it's such a huge responsibility, and I was
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: anxious about meeting that responsibility. It's scary to commit yourself
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: for the rest of forever to that, you know. And
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: then it was actually sort of hard for us to
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: get pregnant. Initially. I had a fertility condition, and so
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: it took a little over a year of trying before
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: we were able to conceive, and we ended up losing
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: that first pregnancy around thirteen weeks. And I think that
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: was when I realized how badly I actually did want
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: to be a parent, you know, that was when it
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: really hit home how much I wanted a child. I
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: found out I was pregnant with our oldest boy the
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: day I got back home from touring PhD campuses, and
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: so it was this moment of like, Okay, how are
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: we going to do this? What is the rest of
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: these next several years going to look like? But I
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: felt very confident in my partner. Josh was extremely supportive.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I felt confident he was going to be a wonderful dad,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: a really good partner. I felt secure in our partnership
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: there would be an equal distribution of labor and support.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: After Sarah received her master's degree in North Carolina, she
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: and Josh moved to Boston and they were expecting a baby.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: So she showed up very pregnant to her first class
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: for PhD and then gave birth between semesters and then
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: went back to class six weeks.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I had to get back to class or you lose
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: your funding.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Josh and Sarah found a community in Boston that fell
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: like home, a great place to raise young kids. They
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: knew their neighbors, They had Sunday dinners with friends. Life
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: was busy, but it was good.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I just remember like walking down Moody Street in Waltham
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: and feeling this profound sense of like connection and fulfillment
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: and belonging to this place in these.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: People in the summer, they would close down Moody Street
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: to cars, so just be foot traffic. So we would walk,
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: you know, to the library, or to restaurant or you
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: know wherever, pretty much every day. And Clarence by the
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: time he was biking, and so he was biking up
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: and down Moody Street. He was a known feature on
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: Moody Street over the summers.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Also because he really loved wearing his dinosaur costume when
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: we went grocery shop me, so he's recognizable in that
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: sense as well. By July of twenty twenty two, we
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: had just had our second baby and I was finishing
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: up on campus work for my PhD program. I had
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: passed my prospectives a month after my kid was born.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I remember breastfeeding him through the prospectives defense. Josh's parents
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: came up to visit while we were there to meet
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: the new baby. My parents came up as well, but
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I went too late. I delivered too late for them
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: to actually meet him. And then we had to go
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: to Colorado to film a shoot for a documentary we
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: were working on. And while we were in Colorado, Josh's
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: parents watched our kids quite a bit so that we
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: could get the shoots done that we had to do.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: You know, there was like a lot of like me
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: holding a camera with a baby and a carrier sort
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: of bouncing. But when the baby was asleep or when
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: it wasn't possible to have the baby with me, Josh
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: his mom would take him and have him with her.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like such an exciting time and such
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: a happy time. You're working on this documentary, you have
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: this brand new baby, and once the documentary wrapps, you
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: returned to Massachusetts. So take us to the morning of
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: July twelfth.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I had gone to a playgroup with my kids at
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: Walden Pond. While we were at the play date, I
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: remember noticing that my baby was a little more, you know,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: just slower, more unhappy than normal, more lethargic. So I
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: took him home and I nursed him, and he vomited
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: the entire feed pretty immediately, and I noticed that he
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: was a little warm, not too bad, but a little warm.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: So I called the pediatrician and she said that if
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: we noticed him vomiting all of his feeds, or if
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: his fever spikes above one hundred and three, that we
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: needed to take him to the hospital. And so I
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: just you know, kept an eye on him throughout the day,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: and then it was that night he woke up vomiting
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: again and I checked his temperature and it was like
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: one hundred and three point seven or something like that,
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: and so I woke Josh and I said, I think
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: we need to take him to the hospital. Josh offered
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: to take him, and I said, well, he's exclusively breastfed.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I think I need to be the one to take
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: him because I'm his traveling kitchen. And so Josh went
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: back to sleep, stayed at home with Clarence, and I
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: took the baby to the hospital. So it's like early
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: morning hours of the thirteenth that I had taken baby
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: to the hospital.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: And when you say hospital, you're you're go into the
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: emergency room.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to the emergency room of Newton Wellesley Hospital, Okay.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And when you got there, how did it start out?
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: I always feel like, am I overreacting? Was this actually necessary?
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: But I remember in triage they took his temperature and
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: I asked like, was it right to come? Should I
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: have stayed home? Should we just go home? And they're like,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: oh no, his temperature is really high, he needs to
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: be here. They tasted his blat oxygen levels and his
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: blood oxygen was low. That was the biggest concern. So
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: they put oxygen blowing by him so that he was
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: getting enough oxygen. And then they catheterized him so that
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: they could get a urine sample, and he screamed through that,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: and then they took a blood sample and he screamed
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: through that. And then they said, we need to take
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: an x ray, a chest x ray, and they brought
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: in this portable x ray machine and they took a
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: chest x ray looking for pneumonia. And you know, the
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: baby's just terribly uncomfortable, very sad, crying a lot, not
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: nursing great, he's on oxygen. I don't think I slept
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: that night, just being with my baby through all of
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: these tests and things.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: If your baby is sick, it is reasonable and sensible
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: to seek medical care, but it's hard too. No parent
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: is immune to the helpless feeling of watching their baby
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: be poked and prodded by medical staff. Ultimately, their baby
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: was diagnosed with RSV, he would clear the virus and
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: he would be okay. Happened at the hospital and it
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: had nothing to do with RSV. Sarah and Josh and
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: the rest of their family were launched into a nightmare
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: when a chest x ray to check for pneumonia revealed
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: an injury.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: People came in for morning grounds and then when they leave,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the main attending pediatrician and a medical student stayed behind
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: and they said, the x ray confirmed that your child
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: has a rib fracture. Your baby has a rib fracture,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: and because of that, that's opened a child welfare investigation.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of tests that we have to
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: run now to meet our legal liability, we have to
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: run them regardless of your consent. So we'll be doing
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: those today, and you need to call your husband and
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: have him take your child to his pediatrician for a
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: child welfare examination. I remember when they told me about
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: the rib fracture. I asked, is there anything we need
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: to do for it? Do we need to treat it
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: in any way? Will it impact his life? You know?
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Is there concerns about his health with the rib fracture?
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: And they said no, it's healed or healing mostly healed.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: There's nothing that we would do to treat it. It's
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: going to resolve or is already basically resolved, but it's open.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: This outher can of worms that we now have to
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: look into.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: When they came in and said, well, now we have
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: to open this investigation, and here's these next steps that
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: you have to take and that Josh has to take.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: What was it like to hear that?
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think mostly I was so naive. I
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: think I didn't really even have a strong sense of
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: what a fracture was, you know, like to me, it
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: was like something between a break and a sprain or something.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: You know. I just had no concept that this could
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: balloon into anything. You know, like, we're good parents, our
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: kids are fine, There's not going to be anything that
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: would indicate child abuse or anything like that. I think
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I felt frustrated that we would be running these tests
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: when I was concerned about my kid's oxygen when his
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: fever was, when he had just had such a terrible night,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: to now have to be taken to all of these
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: other tests, but sad and frustrating.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: When they say we have to open this investigation. Was
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: it registering with you that this was an investigation into
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: like you as parents, like a child abuse thing? Did
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: they say that outright?
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: They didn't say a child abuse when they first brought
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: it up, And in fact, I remember them saying things like,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: obviously you're a concerned parent, you brought your sick child
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to the hospital, things that right away, I think, reduce
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: the severity of the situation. I had no sense that
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: like the integrity of our family was at stake. So
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: my child and I were wheeled to the eskeletal room
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: X ray room, and they did what's called a full
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: skeletal where they take X rays of every single inch
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: of his body. They had me be the one to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: hold him in the correct positions to be able to
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: get all the angles that they wanted. So being my
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: little three month old infant in these really contorted positions,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: and he's screaming, and the texts are like behind this
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: like literal iron curtain so that they don't get the
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: radiation that there's viewing onto my child, right and my
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: baby he screamed so much that he loses his voice
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: at a time when I already know that he needs
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: to be on oxygen, that they told me he needs
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: to be on oxygen. It felt so horrible and I
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: felt so powerless. I think in that moment, I asked
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: at the time, what's the long term impact of this
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: amount of radiation on an infant? You know, and they said,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: we don't know. Nobody studied that. We wouldn't be allowed
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: to study that. And then they take us straight from
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: the X ray skeletal room to the MRI room and
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: they hand me consent form and they say, you need
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: to sign this consent form. And I said, I guess
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: I'm confused. I was told you're going to run these
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: tests regardless of my consent. And if this concent indicates
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: that I feel like taking this MRI is in the
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: best medical interest of my child at this moment, that's
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: not how I feel. I don't agree, so I don't
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: want to sign the consent form. And then there was
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: this sort of hushed, tense conversation in the next room,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: and then they came out and wheeled us back to
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: our room. The pediatrician came in and she said, if
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: you don't sign the consent form, it's going to look
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: really bad to a judge. And that was the first
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: time I'd heard anything about courts or judges being involved
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: at all. And so I agree to sign the consent form.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: They bring it up to me and I signed the
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: consent form with a note saying I don't feel like
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: this is in the best medical interest of my child
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: at this time, and I expressed again to the pediatrician
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: that I felt like what he needed was oxygen, He
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: needed fluids. He wasn't eating well. He wasn't going to
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: get any of that in an MRI. We was Josh's
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: reaction to the situation when you spoke with him, I
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: think it was similar to mine. And I think like
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: part of what's at play in this situation, like this
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: is just information asymmetry. The doctors know about an X ray,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: and we know about literally every single other moment of
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: that child's life. We knew that nobody who had ever
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: held our baby would have intentionally tried to harm him.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: We knew that he was safe and loved and well
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: cared for in a home with people who were entirely
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: dedicated to his well being. We knew that it was
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: beyond the scope of possibility that anyone who held him,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: and we knew every single person who had held him
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: would have intentionally tried to injure or hurt this child, right,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: So Josh doesn't reaction immediately was like, oh, I wonder
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: if it was a birth injury, you know, I wonder
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: if like squeezing through the birth canal could have caused
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: us injury. He's young enough that seemed plausible.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: So Sarah's first reaction to learning about her baby's REP
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: fracture is concern. She wants to know if they should
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: be doing anything to treat it and if he'll be okay.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And the hospital has told her that they're going to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: open up an investigation, but it's still feeling more like
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a formality, just another hurdle they need to get through.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: What the hospital hasn't said is that Sarah and Josh
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: are now suspected a possible child abuse.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: So the social worker comes in, and I should just reiterate,
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: every single person who enters our room comes in in
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: full ppe because you know, this is not that long
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: after COVID, it's during the height of RSP, which is
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: what our baby had. So everybody's like masked, gowned hat,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: you know, like everything intense protective equipment. And so she
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: comes in and says, when we're looking for non accidental trauma,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: we're looking for trauma that was no accidental. Do you
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: know what that means? And I think that like sets
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the tone for the whole interview, right, like it's just
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: the super condescending aggressive, I think, pretty snide interrogation of
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: me and of what's happened. She asked me for an
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: explanation of the injury, and I say, the only thing
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: that I'm aware of, the only time I know in
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: his entire life that he was potentially hurt is when
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: he fell from a bed a couple weeks ago, and
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: we picked him up, We soothed him. He was comforted
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: pretty quick. I looked up on the American Academy Pediatrics
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: what to do, and they said, if he doesn't show
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: these signs of concussion, then he's fine. You don't need
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: to take him in. So we didn't take him in.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: That's the only thing that I know of where he
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: might have been hurt. And she asked, like, well, who
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: was in the room, who was watching him when that happened? Oh,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: you were watching him when that happened, you know? And
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: then I said, well, I was watching him, but I
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: put him on the bed like running get a diaper
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: or something, and my husband was in the room just
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: facing the other direction because he was working. He'd fallen
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: off the bed by like sort of scooting himself off
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: the bed by like waving his arms like babies, do
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: you know, it was surprising, you know, we hadn't expected
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: him to fall off the bed. He wasn't rolling or
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: anything like that yet. And she asked a question like
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: does your husband regularly ignore the children when he's alone
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: in the room with them? And it was such an
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: absurd question, like Josh is such a deeply good, involved,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: loving parent that my immediate response was to roll my eyes,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: which killed me. The social worker immediately said, I see
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: that you're rolling your eyes. I'm curious why you're not
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: taking this more seriously or something like that, which, in fairness,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: was a rude response to a rude investigation. And also
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: by this point, it's like after lunchtime. You know, I
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: hadn't been given any food, I hadn't slept the night
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: before in my breastfeeding mom and it had just been
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: a really intense day so far. So I think I
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: was not at my best. Admittedly would have been better
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: had I not rolled my eyes. And I think there's
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of reasons why it made sense to roll
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: my eyes in that moment anyway, And so she leaves
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: sort of on that note, like, I see you're rolling
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: your eyes. I'll be back.
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I understand, right, that like probably hospitals
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: on ourn high alert for identifying child abuse. But it's
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: interesting in the way that you've described that even when
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: she comes in and she says looking for non accidental injuries,
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: like looking for it, I'm trying to find it. I'm
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: expecting it to be. There is sort of like coded
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: in there, as well as her interpretation of your husband
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: ignoring the child when he's working, and that it clearly
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: wasn't It wasn't the arrangement that he was watching the
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: child at that moment. So it doesn't feel like a
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: neutral exchange.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: No, I think it definitely was. And what was so
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: curious to me is she leaves and then she comes
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: back a little while later, and she said she's spoken
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: to other people and they recommended to her that she
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: should ask some other questions. So here's the other questions.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Is there a history of domestic violence, the police ever
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: visited your home? You know, do you have food insecurity? Like,
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: is there substance misbuse? Like all of these like really
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: really basic questions that you like should very obviously be
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: like first order questions whenever you're in the midst of
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: a child abuse investigation. That were just totally passed over
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: in this first interview.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: As soon as the hospital becomes suspicious of Sarah, her
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: every move is monitored and dissected, looking for anything that
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: might point to a sign that she is an abusive parent.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: She hasn't slept or had anything to eat since arriving
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: to the hospital, and over and over again, she's asked
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: to hold her screaming baby still for more tests.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: And she tries like four different entry points, and my
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: baby's still screaming, still has a really hoarse voice. Blood
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: squirts out into the hospital basinette. You know, I'm trying
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: to hold them down so that they can do this,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: and I start sobbing, and I remember the hospital nurse
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: gives me a big hug. I just feel so shaken
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: and desperate and scared and just helpless. That actually comes
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: up later on the report that I cried during the
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: blood withdraw, with the suggestion the implication that maybe I
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: was scared about what they would find when they took
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: his blood test.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: After test came back clear, but it didn't matter. Everything
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Sarah did seemed like it was being interpreted negatively or
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: as something maybe a guilty person might do. Sarah had
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: pushed back against the MRI because she wanted her son
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: to be perceiving oxygen. She wanted that to be the priority.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: She'd cried holding him down for blood draws, seeing that
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: her infant son had lost his voice from screaming. She
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: and Josh then spoke with DCF workers and answered all
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: of their questions about their parenting style, their family life.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: It felt almost impossible that this wouldn't be clear it up.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: They are loving and supportive parents. All they'd done was
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: taken their sick infant to the hospital and he would
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: need to be observed for a second night. So of
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: course Sarah stayed with him.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: And everybody that we're talking to, all of our parents,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Josh's uncle who's a radiologist, all of them are just saying,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: you know, like it sucks, but cooperate and then this
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: will go away and you'll be fine. This isn't going
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: to be something that lasts longer than the next little while.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: And so I go to bed that night, and then
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: I wake up to a phone call from Josh. His
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: dad had been up all night long researching infant rib fractures.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: He's the first person to realize that infant rib fractures
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: correlate to high levels of child removal. He says, Sarah,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: there's a real possibility that they could be trying to
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: take cal today. You need to get out of the hospital.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Do whatever you can to leave the hospital. And so
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: I call the nurse in and I say, okay, when
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: can we get out? You said that the marker for
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: being able to leave the hospital is if he was
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: able to go the whole night without oxygen. He went
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: the whole night without oxygen. I would like to go.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: When can we go? And she says, as soon as
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: the doctors come. They're just doing their rounds. We'll be
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: in here soon. And then hours pass and there's no doctors,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: and I call the nurse in. Many times it's always
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: they'll be in soon. The doctors will be in soon.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Here the next stop, they'll be in soon, and they
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: know if they don't come. And then one of the
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: times I call the nurse in, I'm asking her when
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: can we go? I want to go, and I look
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: past her through the door and there's a police officer
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: by our door, and I just like, I know what
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: that looks like, you know, And I said, why is
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: there a police officer here? And she said, don't worry.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: About it, but you're legally not allowed to leave. And
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: then she goes and I burst into tears and I
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: sit and I nurse and I hold my baby and
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: I cry, and that's all i can do for like
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: several hours, while I'm waiting for whatever is going to
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: happen to happen. You know, my father in law had
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: found a lawyer for us, and we agreed to let
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: him represent us. And so it was just like people
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: making calls, you know, like whatever lawyer we can find,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: and so he agrees to represent us, and he's talking
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: to me and he says, okay, so there's a police
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: officer there, So you're going to be arrested. That's a
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: done deal. Like that's just what's going to happen. They're
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: going to take the baby. They're going to arrest you.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: A trip to the hospital that had started over concern
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: for their baby's fever had now evolved into this very
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: real threat that Sarah could be arrested, that she and
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Josh would have their baby taken from them. As a parent,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: it's a nightmare. There really aren't words for. But then
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: for just a moment, it seemed like maybe things would
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: turn around and maybe everything would be okay.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Apparently, Josh during this time called our pediatrician, our kids'
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: primary care pediatrician, and she said, well, I told them
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: that you've made every single well visit that I've never
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: seen any signs of concern that I saw him as
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: recently as two weeks ago, Like, let me call them back.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: And so she calls them back, and then she calls
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Josh and she's like, they're gonna let them go, and
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: so amazingly, like it feels like a miracle, they come
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: in and they discharge us, and I'm able to leave
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: the hospital with my baby. I just remember shaking, like
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: physically shaking, because it was such a relief that we
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: got out and that we're together. The department said that
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: we were going to have a safety plan that was
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: infinitely preferable to the alternative, right, and so we see
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: the safety plan, we agree to it, and we sleep
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: together all in our home that night, and I remember
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: my baby waking up the next morning in his basinette
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: and just smiling. And that was this really tender, touching
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: moment for me of like we're home, we're safe, we're together,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: and we're gonna be okay, and it's going to be fine,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: and then we just spend this like halcyon day. The
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: next day all together, we go to the park, and
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: we go out to dinner together that night, and we
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: have this lovely time together and Josh and I are
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: like literally holding hand in bed that night, like this
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: is tender relief, almost cliche image of like sweetness and tenderness.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: We're like just falling asleep and then we hear a
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: knock at our door and that's when everything happens. Yeah,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I wanted to ask before we get into that. I
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: always think about when we're doing these interviews. People are
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: going to listen to this. They don't know you, and
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I imagine you've already maybe encountered this with your story
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: being you know, national news, that there might be people
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: that assume that there was abuse or something. Yeah. Absolutely,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: you describe.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: This feeling of just like relief, and that makes so
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: much sense to me, like, oh, wow, we made it
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: through this. Obviously you didn't know that it wasn't over yet,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: But was there any part of your brain that was
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: started to question, like, wait, how did this happen? Or
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: is someone close to us hurting our child? Or was
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: there ever a moment where you started to like wonder
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: that at all. I think in the hospital, my main
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: concern was for my baby's respiratory RSV diagnosis, and I felt,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: I think, real panic that that wasn't being treated. He
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: wasn't on oxygen, he wasn't on fluids. When they told
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: me that the rib fracture was healed or healing, I
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: think that for me quieted any long term concerns about
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: the impact of the rib fracture on his health.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: In terms of what caused it. I knew that finding
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: a cause would help with the investigation, but I wasn't
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: concerned about anybody having ever hurt my child. Like I said,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: I knew every single person who had ever touched my kid,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: besides the nurses in the hospital who were treating him.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I knew every single person, and there was just no doubt.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: It was, I think, actually an impossibility that any of
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: them would have ever tried to hurt them. And so
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: that wasn't a concern for me. And I know how
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: that sounds. I know that sounds like I'm passing the
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: buck or like I'm maybe well lingering or something, But again,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's the reality of information asymmetry that you know,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: so much about this baby, and so I knew that
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: nobody was trying to hurt him. It never entered the
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: realm of possibility to be concerned about that.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: For me, I think that's actually really telling and powerful
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: to hear you say that, And it's sad that we
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: have to even like be like overtly state it. But
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: I think the fact that you were like this is
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: so impossible that I'm not actually even worried about it
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: or suspicious of anyone, because I'm so sure that this
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: isn't happening, you know, is very telling that your kid
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: was in a very safe, loving environment and still is.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: So take us to that moment of you hear this
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: knock on the door. Who answered the door? And what
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: was going on?
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, So there's a knock at the door, like the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: loudest knock I've ever heard in my entire life, and
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Waltham Police out. Waltham Police open up, and Josh goes
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: and opens the door. He leaves the chain lock on it,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: so the door has just opened a crack, and I
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: remember hearing a woman's voice saying she was there from
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: the Department of Children and Families and we needed to
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: let them in. And I just remember this feeling of unreality,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: like this can't be just like the last day where
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: we had set up all of these safety precautions, where
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: we had had the safety plan, and even at five
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: pm that night, our caseworker had come to our house
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: to get eyes on the kids before the weekend, and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: he had reassured us that he would be coming back
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: on Monday to go over the safety plan, do a
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: more full like home visit, see what our home safety
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: was like. I remember Josh saying, do you have a
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: warrant to come into our house? And they said, we
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: don't need a warrant. And Josh said, do you have
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: paperwork of any kind, any sort of paperwork? And they
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: said no, and Josh said, okay, come back when you
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: have paperwork. There was some back and forth and ultimately
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: they said, well, we'll call our superiors, and so we
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: shut the door and they went off and made calls,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: and then they came back and just said, we don't
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: have paperwork, but you have to let us in. It
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: goes back and forth like this for a long time.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: It's a while before they finally admit we're here to
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: take your children. The department has taken custody and we're
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: here to take your kids. It was just shock and
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: horror and desperation, you know, like you imagine like a
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: wild animal that's being chased down or something like that.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: That's what it feels like. You're just like moving and
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: doing things and trying whatever you can come up with
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: to like get out of this situation. You know, Josh
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: is begging them, begging them to come back, if not
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: with paper, then at least come back at nine in
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: the morning, when this is going to be less terrifying
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: for our children. And they just say, it's not the policy.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: That's not the policy. We call our lawyer, and our
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: lawyer answers, and he calls the police superiors and they
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: tell him basically, if we don't give up the kids,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: and they're gonna kick down the door. And so our
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: lawyer calls us back and he says, listen, you need
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: to give up the kids or they're going to take
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: him by force. They're going to kick down your door
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: and you might never see them again. It was very clear,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: it was completely unambiguous that it was either wake up
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: our children and hand them to these strangers in the
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: middle of the night and watch them drive away, or
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: have armed police officers come into our home and take
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: them from their beds. Which one do you want? And
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: so Josh said, okay, I guess we have no choice.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Arrest for the baby. And I remember they didn't bring
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: proper car seats. They brought like a front facing car
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: seat and then a booster seat for our infant and
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: three year old. So they said we needed to give
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: of them our car seats, and so we went and
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: we got our infant car seat and I struck my
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: baby in and they asked if it would make me
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: feel better if I was the one to put him
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: in the car. I just remember the callousness of that.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: What's going to make me feel better right now? He
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: told me to pack some diapers and some breast milk,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: and we asked how they were going to feed our
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: kids because both of our kids had allergies. Our oldest
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: had been hospitalized before for anaphylaxis when we accidentally gave
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: him some dairy. So we asked what the meal plan was,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: what the food plan was, and they said, there isn't one,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: but we'll call a pediatrician. And that's the plan. That's
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: not a plan, that's a plan to have a plan,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: but that's not a plan. But it didn't matter, you know,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Like they were here to take the kids, and they weren't.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: They weren't going to leave without them, and so we
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: put the infant in the car, and then I had
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: to go and wake my three year old, which is
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I remember rubbing his back and saying, my boy, you
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: get to go on a car ride to a new
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: and an exciting place. You're going to make new friends,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: and mom and dad are going to come and find
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: you as soon as we can. Because I thought maybe
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: if I introduced it gently that you wouldn't be scared.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: But he was scared. And he woke up just screaming,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: and he screamed the whole time. He said, I don't
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: want to go. Don't make me go. I want to
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: go in our car. Come with me, Mommy, Daddy, don't
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: make me go. He was crushing, you know. We tried
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: to put him in his car seat and he was
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: just crashing. And then I remember the caseworkers trying to
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: like force him into the car and watching and being
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: totally helpless. It's not like I could say, don't touch
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: my child. They were forcing him and he like tumbled
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: out of the car and into the street, and they
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: were like, oh, should I tickle your belly? You know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: just so awful, so awful, And then they said, well,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: I think maybe seeing you as upsetting your child, so
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: we want you to go into your home. Well, we
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: force him into the car seat without you there to watch,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: and we said we're not going to do that, And
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: so Josh took our kid and he got him ice
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: cream and he walked back and forth to get him
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: to calm down, and eventually he stopped screaming. We got
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: him buckled into the car seat and they drove away.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: I couldn't actually bear to watch it. And they didn't
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: give us any real information about when we would see
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: our kids again, or where they were going, or like
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: when even the hearing would be to like request permission
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: today our kids, like they had already done. The police
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: officer just said, figure it out on Monday, right, because
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: this is Saturday, figure it out on Monday.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Sarah and Josh were not going to wait until Monday
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: to do something. They called their family members and woke
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: everyone up. They both came from big families with lots
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: of siblings, and so pretty quickly everybody was on board, researching,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: making calls, coming together to help them.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Pretty immediately there was a bunch of people already like
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: looking up by laws and searching websites and looking for
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: phone numbers. We found an emergency hotline phone number, and
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: we called them and we read them a by law
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: from their own website that says if you take kids
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: without a court order, basically like, if you take kids
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: under the B three order, which is the order that
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: supposedly gives them the legal right to take kids without
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: any kind of warrant or paperwork or court order, then
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to place them with kinship, with kin Care
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: next to kin And so we said, they're here in
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: the state, these kids' grandparents, they're supposed to be placed
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: with them. It's here on your website. It's here and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: your bylaws. That needs to happen. And they said, well,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: we're not sure that we can do that.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: How long is it until you're able to get some
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: kind of answer about where they are and where were they?
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: We never learned where they were. We have no information
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: about that. We had no idea where in the world
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: our children were until sometime around six pm the next
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: night when we finally got them placed with their grandparents,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: and that was just a huge relief, you know, just
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: to know physically where they were in the world and
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: who they were with. Yeah.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so then now at least you know that they're
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: with people that they know who love them. But I
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: imagine the sort of legal steps forward are pretty calm, complicated,
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: and so what does the next week look like for you?
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So what's amazing about this is my dad is
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: a lawyer, Josh's dad is a lawyer, Josh's brother is
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: a lawyer. He has uncles who are like, I'm getting
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: an advanced degree. Like, We're a pretty deeply educated family.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: And it was so confusing and so difficult to navigate
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: the legal system around all of this. We have five
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: siblings each, and almost all of our siblings are working
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: almost full time on this case trying to get these
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: kids reunited with us, and it was still confusing and
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: overwhelming and labyrinthine, you know, just trying to navigate this system.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: The first order of business was trying to find a
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: lawyer that actually had experience in child welfare, which is
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: really hard to do, mostly because they're all so busy
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: they're all completely overwhelmed with their caseloads, which again I
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: think speaks to some realities of this system. Certainly in
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: the state of Massachusetts, we went through like three different
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: lawyers trying to find somebody who had the specialization they needed,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: who had the time to take on the case. And
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: we finally found somebody who was available and competent, but
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: who was still going to be a month before we
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: were able to do a custody hearing that would allow
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: our kids to be reunited with us physically in our home.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: So ultimately we were given again some of the most
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: liberal visitation I've actually ever heard of in the system.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I think it was two hours at a time, three
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: times a day, which is extremely liberal considering most parents
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: in the system get one hour a week in a
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: conference room. Right. And the way that happened is Josh's
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: aunt is a big blogger, you know, she's like previously
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: one Times blog of the Year, and she did a
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Twitter thread the next day, the morning after our kids
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: were taken, and it immediately went viral, and so immediately
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: the department was under a lot of scrutiny. We had
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: federal senators calling them, had the state Attorney General was
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: briefed on our case. So there was just a lot
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: of attention and pressure put on them because of that,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: which was good and bad. Right, Like, we got really
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: really liberal visitation, and I think they felt a real
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: need to like buckle Town and really prove that they
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: were right to take the kids.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: What was the reason or concern that was ultimately provided
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: to you as far as like why they were going
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: to remove your children? You know, because as you had said,
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: there was a plan, there was a safety plan, you
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: had met with a social worker, and then suddenly there's
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: this different decision that was made. Were you ever given
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: an explanation as to why that was made?
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean essentially just a different supervisor looked over
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: the case and made a different decision. I think it's
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: as simple as that, a different worker looked at it
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: and made a different decision.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: A month later, the seventy two hour hearing happened. Seventy
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: two hour hearings and child custody cases are supposed to
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: take place within the first seventy two hours the children
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: are removed from their home, but it's not uncommon for
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the hearings to be delayed. Two common reasons are a
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: shortage of lawyers and courts that are overwhelmed with caseloads.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: So in Sarah and Josh's case, it took a month.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: They were lucky that their kids were with family and
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: they had a lot of visitation rates, which is also
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: very uncommon, and during that time they had also discovered
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: the cause of the rib fracture.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: We'd figured out what had caused the injury, and what
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: had happened is while we were in Colorado filming about
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: six weeks earlier from the hospital visit, Josh's mom was
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: watching the infant and she went to get him out
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: of the car seat and she was like holding something
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: in her other hand or something like that, so she
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: was trying to pick him up one handed, and he
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: threw his head back and she gripped him to keep
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: him from falling, And apparently that's enough to cause a
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: rib fracture. Like every doctor who review the case testified
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: to that. The doctor for the Department of Children Family
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: said that she thinks it was a few days outside
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: of the timeline, so therefore couldn't have caused it, but
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: like any other doctor who review the case said that
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: that was almost certainly the cause of the injury. And
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: so I think because we had an explanation, because we
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: also had our pediatrician testify that, you know, she had
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: never seen any cause for concern. We'd attended every child
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: well visit, she had seen the kid as recently as
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: a few weeks before, and she hadn't noticed the rib fracture,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: for any indication of the rib fracture. I think all
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: of that coalesced to us getting what's called conditional custody.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: At the hearing, Sarah and Josh received conditional custody. This
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't over by any means, but they were allowed to
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: take their children home with them. This was huge. They
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: cried tears of relief. Sarah remembers putting their son Clearance
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: to bed that evening.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: We sang him his favorite songs and read them books.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: And then I think it was really like that first
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: night that the night terror started. Our boy had never
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: had night terrors before, but you know, every single night
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: in that apartment for the remainder of our time there,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: he would wake up screaming right around one in the
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: morning and was inconsolable for like an hour. You know,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: I just remember holding him and his arms wind milling
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: and just this inconsolable terror that continued for in about
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: an hour every single night, you know, like a night terror.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: They're not really awake, they're not really asleep. They just
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: have to like move through it, and you just hold
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: them and make sure that they're not in a position
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: where they can hurt themselves. But there's not that much
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: you can do. And it felt extremely reminiscent, you know,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: of this entire experience where this horrible, terrible thing was happening,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: the worst thing that ever happened to my child, the
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: worst hours of his life. I was not there for.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I was not allowed to be there for. I was
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: not able to do anything for him during that window.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And I'll never know what happened, you know, like I'll
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: never know what that was like for him. There's a
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: lot of just sort of picking up the pieces and
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: trying to move on with resilience, teaching resilience, teaching your
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: kid that this terrible thing happened to you. But now
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: we can and help other families and we can be strong,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: and we can appreciate how our whole family came and
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: helped us and took care of us. And that's what
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: family does. Family takes care of each other no matter what.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: There's this pediatrician who was describing separations at the border
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: and he describes the experience of child separation as shrapnel
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: in the brain, where it's this thing that's going to
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: be with you and with your kids forever. Like it's
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: not something that you just get over, you know. Even
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: as recently as a few months ago, we watched Lilo
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: and Stitch with my boy totally forgot about the CPS
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: plot line in it. We watched the originally Lelo and
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Stitch and he was devastated, devastated by it. He was,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: you know, crying and at the end he was like,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: do you know what it reminded me of? It reminded
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: me of when those people took me away. And what
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: do you say to that, Like, how do you express
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: to a six year old this terrible thing happened. It
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have ever happened, But we have to live. If
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: you have to keep living and trying to do good
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: and trying to help other people where you can.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really powerful. And the connection that you're making
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: to to the fact that this is happening not to
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: diminish your experience at all. It shouldn't be happening at all,
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: but it's happening to a lot of families in different circumstances.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Families with significantly less power than us. I think one
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: thing that's happened that's been overwhelming but also really humbling,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: is because our child abuse investigation, our CPS case, made
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: the news in such like a very public way. You know,
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: we were like on the front page of the Washington Post,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: and we were in AP News anyway all these other places.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Every time that's happened, we've had like many, many many
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: calls from other families saying, this happened to me, what
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: do we do? And it's felt like a real responsibility,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I think, for Josh and for me both to try
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: to help other families who just have so much any
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: fewer resources than we do. At our final custody hearing
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: when we got full custody in November, I remember sitting
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: in the courthouse and looking out over the galley to
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: this other case that was happening, and there is this
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: thirteen year old girl who was serving as interpreter on
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: her own child welfare case because her parents didn't speak English,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: and this caseworker was like telling her what to tell
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: her parents. These like ridiculously intricate conditions of custody that
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: they had to follow exactly or they would lose custody again.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: And she was trying to interpret for them, and their
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: parents looked so confused, and the case worker was just
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: cool and professional whatever, And I remember thinking like, this
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: is a face of child welfare, Like this is what
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: child welfare looks like. I think in most situations right now,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: just these low resourced families who were doing their best
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: trying to keep up with these like additional rocks that
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: were throwing at them when they're already treading water.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: What do you think isn't working or could be done better?
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: And what kind of work have you all been doing
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: around that?
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I think some of the most accessible solutions from a
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: grassroots level that would make a meaningful difference is looking
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: at mandatory reporting, which wouldn't have actually made a difference
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: in our case, but would impact like eighty five percent
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: of child welfare cases. So eighty five percent of child
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: welfare cases are for what's called neglect, which is in
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: practice most of the time related to conditions of poverty.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: You know, like if the kid doesn't have a lunch,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: if the kid doesn't have adequate childcare. If the kid
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: doesn't have a coat and it's cold, like isn'tressed appropriate
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: to the weather, then those would be neglect and those
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: get reported, and that's what eighty five percent of investigations
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: and removals are for reasons of neglect. If we changed
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: what gets reported so that we're not actually reporting neglective
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: people to a system that's really their only tool is
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: either removable or the threat of removal to coerce behavior,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: which makes some sense maybe if there's like child abuse,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I think in very very specific situations, that would be
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: appropriate and a useful tool. But certainly when you're just
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: like struggling with poverty, demanding that you no longer struggle
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: with poverty, isn't actually going to help the child, isn't
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: going to help the family, isn't the tool that we need.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: And so I think looking at mandatory reporting and changing
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: what that looks like, so we're no longer reporting neglect
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: to child welfare, but maybe connecting them with resources to
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: get them the materials that they need to meet the
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: conditions of their lives, I think would make a meaningful
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: difference and making kids safer actually in supporting families and
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: making kids safer because foster care, decades of research is
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: shown is actually usually not very safe for kids. So
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: I think that's a big deal. What we've done ourselves
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: is we've gotten involved in some different organizations. We've also
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: filed lawsuits. The purpose of the lawsuit that we filed
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: against the department in the state is attempting to close
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: some of the loopholes that exist right now that allow
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: the department to move children without any kind of paperwork.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: We're trying to make it much harder for them to
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: do emergency removals without core orders or warrants, so that
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: they're behold into the constitution in a way that they're
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: just not right now. So that's one of the biggest
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: changes that we're working on. The other lawsuit that we
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: filed is looking at child abuse pediatricians who currently basically
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: practice as prosecutors. Right like, they make a determination on
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: whether or not something is abuse, and then they get
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: paid additionally to testify that it's abuse in a court hearing,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: and so there's just like perverse incentives that are obviously
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: at work there, and so the purpose of that case
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: is to just rethink how we're doing child abuse pediatricians
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: and if they're going to function as prosecutors, they should
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: be held to the same standards as prosecutors, and they're
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: not right now.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: And so you know the fact that they did take
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: your children without a warrant or any kind of paperwork,
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: you know, what is the legality of that.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: There was a pro public a study several years ago,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: like two thousand and two or something like that, where
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: they looked into searches and seizures enacted by child welfare
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: workers in New York. I know it's something like ninety
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: six percent, right, ninety six percent of search and seizures
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: by child welfare officials happened without a warrant, happened without
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: court orders or any kind of ever having talked with
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: a judge, And so it happens at a really, really
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: high rate. I think there's a tendency to think like, oh,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: this is just happening in liberal states or on the
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: East coast, and that's not so. Texas also has really
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: high rates of removal, really high rates of warrantless searches
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: and seizures. I think it's like a United States problem,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: not just a coastal problem. I think most CPS organizations
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: have written like bylaws that allow them to sort of
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: hop over the fourth and fourteenth Amendments. I would say
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: that in most states they're legal, but I think in
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: no state are they constitutional.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's just like, you know, I don't have
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: any children, but I have a lot of friends that do,
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: and they're just like, yeah, you know, people have dropped
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: their babies. Like, accidents happen, and it's scary to think
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: that an accident would put you in this situation like that.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: What is the expectation of parents, like perfection? Like what
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: are we talking about here?
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: No. Absolutely, One thing that was so unnerving for us
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: was we had a friend who I guess was friends
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: with the former head of the Arlington DCF office, which
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: is where our case is being run through, and they
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: asked her what advice she would give to us. We
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: don't have her name or her number or anything. They
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: just forwarded the text afterwards, but she said, like part
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: of her text was, if one of them dropped the baby,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: they should just fess up. They'll lose custody, but then
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: at least the other parent can get the baby. That's
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: an accident. That's not child abuse, that's like a totally
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: innocent accident, and they would lose custody over that, Like,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: is this the sort of parenting environment that we want
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: to be parenting in perfection? Or you lose every I
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: think I think that was really disturbing to see the
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: mindset of how that played out for that former official,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: the person who would be making these decisions one hundred percent.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: And so, how has this, you know, continue to impact
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: you and your family? You talked about the process of
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: getting full custody back and then have some ongoing lawsuits.
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: But over the past couple of years, how has this
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: impacted how you think about even going to seek medical
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: treatment for your children or where you live? You know,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: what have been sort of the longer term changes that
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: have happened as a result of this.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just want to underscore, like I think
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: in many ways, our CPS case was really fortunate, really
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: clearly marked by privilege, and I don't want to give
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: the impression at all that it wasn't profoundly traumatic for
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: everybody in our family. I can't imagine possibly bringing my
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: kid to an emergency room at this point. I don't
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: think I could do it. You know, we just had
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: our third baby, probably our last baby, and he had
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: a tongue tie, you know, like very normal thing, a
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: tongue and a lip tie, and it needed to be cut,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: and so I took him to the pediatric dentist and
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: she's like, okay, so we'll take him back and you
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: just stay in the waiting room. The amount of real
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: terror that I felt in that moment of sitting in
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: a waiting room while medical professionals had my baby somewhere
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: else that I couldn't be was profound. It shocked me
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: how difficult that was for me. You know. Curiously, our kid,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: who was three at the time he's now six. Almost
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: every year on the anniversary his night terrors resolved after
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: we moved away from our apartment where he was taken from.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: For the most part, they resolved a few months later
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: after we moved. But curiously, for the last two years
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: he's had a night terror again on the anniversary of
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: the removal, and we like certainly did not bring it
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: up with and that wasn't something that we were like, hey,
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: do you remember, you know, yeah, just totally unprompted. He
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: had he had nine terrors. Somebody was asking me about
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: some of the ice raids and the family separations, and
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: acknowledging that immigration is complicated and people will have strong
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: feelings in both directions. My response to them was, I
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: don't think it's actually something that you can recover from.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Having government officials come to your house without any sort
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: of paperwork or do process and take people from your home.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: That's not something you recover from. Like, I think that
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: profoundly impacted how I view and think about safety and
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: democracy and security and home. These fundamental concepts are radically
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: changed for me, and I think there's just a sense
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: of unsafety that will follow me the rest of my life.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: The rest of the time I am parenting, the rest
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: of the time my children are parenting. You know. Yeah,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: I don't think I'll get away from that. What happened
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: to us was terrible. It shouldn't have happened. I feel
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: really grateful that we had community to lean on and
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: that showed up for us, you know, brought meals on
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: court dates, and brought toys to our babies when they
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: didn't have access to their toys. We were really lucky
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: in that regard, really supported I think not every family
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: in this system has access to that, and so I
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: think societally, we have a responsibility to care for the
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: least advantage in our society. I think those are the
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: families that disproportionately are being sacrificed to this system. Their
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: parenting habits might be different, they might not be like
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: the ideal parent in the ways that we think of,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: like this nineteen fifties mom or something. But every single
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: family that I have ever spoken to, and I've spoken
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: to hundreds now who have been caught in this system,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: cared deeply about their kids and are completely dedicated to
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: their happiness and their well being and their help and
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: their long term success. And I think it's just important
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: to remember that people will take care of their kids.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: People who can't take care of themselves take care of
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: their kids, and they do it when everything is stacked
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: against them. And I think as much as we can
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: support that, we'll be saving children. I think that's how
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: we save children.
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: I love that interview with Sarah.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Sarah told an incredibly difficult story with such poise and
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: thoughtful reflection about not only what she and Josh went
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: through as parents, but the bigger problem that exists in
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: the way that families are treated in situations like this one.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think for anybody listening, it was powerful and terrifying.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: But I can imagine if you're a parent listening to that,
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: there would be like a different level of being disturbed,
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: because you can imagine what that would be like.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we took our daughter to the emergency room when
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: she was a little over a year old because she
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: was clearly having some difficulty breathing and she was just
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: making this kind of grunt sound. I remember we googled
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: it and there was immediately Youtub's like, if they're breathing
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: this way, take them to the er. So it was
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: late at night, we took her in and they did
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: end up actually doing a chest X right, which is
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: already for anyone who doesn't know, a very hard thing
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: to put a small child through. They don't understand what's happening.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: They're scared. I had to hold her down for this,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: and they had to do it twice. She's screaming, mama, mama, mama,
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: and I'm holding her down and she's already sick, and
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: now she's terrified.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: Even you having to hold her. Like Sarah talking about
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: her experience in the hospital having to hold her baby,
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: and you talking about that now, it's like, you know, well,
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: specifically for your example, you know that this is the
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: best for your child, like you need this medical care.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: But I imagine in the moment when you're physically holding
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: her body and she's uncomfortable, like that probably feels bad
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: to you. Horrible.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: You feel like you're betraying the trust of your child.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: They're looking at a room full of adults and they're
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: looking at you to save them because they don't understand
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: what's happening. And listening to Sarah talk about the feeling
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: of having to balance the rational voice in her mind
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: of like, my baby needs this care, he needs these tests,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: so I'm going to help the hospital get the information
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: they need to diagnose him. But then having that very
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: reasonable emotional reaction be interpreted in such a sinister way
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: is just I mean, it was heartbreaking. Yeah, And I
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: want to talk about the lawsuit a little bit because
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: one thing that was important to Sarah and Josh going
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: into this interview with us and telling their story on
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: the knife was that, yes, they are telling their story,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: but this problem is, you know something that is actually
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: pretty expansive. Yeah, you know, I haven't read the lawsuit,
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: but you did, so tell me, like, what's going on
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: with their lawsuit. Yeah, so, as we know, this happened
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: to them in twenty twenty two. So in May of
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Sarah and Josh fail to complaint against
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: several individual officials within the police department in the Massachusetts
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Department of Families, stating that their actions were unconstitutional. And
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's really important because you know, when the
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: police came knocking at their door, Sarah and Josh, did
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: you know he did crack the door open, and he
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: asked a really reasonable question, which is, show me what
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: paperwork you have, Because if someone can come to your
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: door in the middle of the night and demand your
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: children or that they're going to break in and take them,
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: and they don't owe you any legitimate legal verification of that.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: They literally have no paperwork, no warrant, nothing, no order, nothing,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: and they'd just say give me your kids. I mean,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: it is the most Unamerican thing I've ever heard, Like,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: no one should be able to just beat your door
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: down and take your children.
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: But Sarah said in the interview that this is happening
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: all of the time, and she's riet and she's right.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that just like mind blowing and disproportionately happening
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: to low income black and brown families. And you know,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: I think that Josh and Sarah, through this incredible ordeal,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: had a lot of support from their extended families and
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: grandparents who were able to step in and take custody
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: of their children.
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: And Sarah talked about that. Yeah, she acknowledged They're an
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: incredibly well resourced family, very highly educated. There's family available.
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: They had, you know, money and resources, which puts them
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: in a very small percentage of this This is not
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: a typical case, right, But she, you know, she spoke
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: about that, right.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So in March of twenty twenty four, the judge
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: overseeing Sarah and Josh's case rules that the involved social
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: workers at the hospital and the police officers who showed
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: up at their house that night, they are not entitled
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: to something that's called qualified immunity. And qualified immunity is
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: the quick explanation of it is that it's a legal
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: doctor and that protects government officials from individual liability and
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: civil lawsuits unless they violate a constitutional right. So basically,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: qualified immunity would mean that the doctors, the police officers,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: everybody involved would not be able to be prosecuted, right,
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: Because what we I think all agree on is that
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: if a police officer or a social worker can be
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: at the mercy of lawsuits, you know, how could they
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: ever pay for representation over and over again to get
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: them out of lawsuits.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: Someone could be angry at a judge who gave them whatever,
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: gave them community service, and then they could file erroneous
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: lawsuits against that judge for revenge for example, would be
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: a reason why a judge would need qualified immunity, right.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Or a social worker or social worker like a social
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: worker could go through the process if they went about
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: it the correct way, and maybe they end up deciding
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: we need to remove children from a home, but then
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: the investigation takes place and the children are returned. Well,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: if an investigation took place the right way, what we
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: don't want is for that social worker to be living
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: with the risk of being sued by civilians the parents
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: that they were doing their best with but that are
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: angry that their kids were ever taken from them, because
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: that is both costly, time consuming, I'm sure emotional. But
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: if you are in a position of power, such as
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: a hospital social worker who is leading the charge on
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: an investigation, into child abuse or a police officer showing
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: up at someone's door. You have a constitutional obligation to
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: not violate these people's rights. And so the judge is saying,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: you are not going to benefit from them legal doctrine
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: of qualified immunity because you did violate their constitutional rights.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: And is part of the reason that Sarah and Josh
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: are bringing this lawsuit is that they want to change
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: the way that qualified immunity comes to play in some
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: child abuse investigations.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: I think they want to both raise awareness about the
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: way that investigations are taking place at these hospitals and
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: how quick people were to jump to conclusions here, but
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: also I think to hold the people involved accountable, and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: they've certainly spoken about it with this other greater purpose
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: that we touched on, which is that this problem goes
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: far beyond them.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I want to say quickly, because
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: what we did not do, or what I did not do,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: is talk to anyone that works in a hospital or
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: you know, look at hospital policies, and so I also
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: imagine that the people in hospitals are working according to
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: policies that they have to follow for a lot of
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: different reasons. But That's one of the things that makes
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: this story so complicated is that Sarah gets thrust into
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: the system where there's all of these rules and organizations
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: that are following their processes, and then it becomes much
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: more about that than about the human being and Sarah
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: and her child and what's best for them. I imagine
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: it's like a pretty big effort to try to change
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: those systems. But from what it sounds like you're saying,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: and what Sarah was saying, is that they're trying to
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: do that, they're trying to like better this system so
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: that it's I don't know not how it's far.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Fair to parents, because you don't want people to be
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: afraid to bring their children into the hospital. Yeah, but
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: there's something about like act accidents happen. What I don't want,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: and what I think every parent would not want, is
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: to worry that when you take your child into the hospital,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: they could find something that you're not even aware of
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: and blame you.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I also wanted to call out that Josh
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: said when we were speaking to him about the police
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: showing up at his door. He said, you are all
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: making a choice right now. You've been told to do
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: this but you don't have to do this because you
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: don't have any paperwork to show me that says you do.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: And they did it anyway. And for me, that was
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: such an important distinction that he made in that moment
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: because he knew they were violating his rights and his
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: family's rights and that his children would be traumatized by that,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: and he was correct.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it was just like one person that looked
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: over the file that they'd never met, that had, you know, yeah,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: very distant from their case and from them as humans,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: that made that decision and then suddenly their kids are
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: taken out of their home.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: And to your point, not having you know, spoken with
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: these hospital social workers or any as part of this
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: particular episode, it's like they are notoriously short staffed. They
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: all have these large caseloads that are probably very difficult
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: for them to cover. However, it's like if a result
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: of this lawsuit or other conversations around this problem result
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: in a more reasonable caseload for each of these social
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: workers so that they can truly do their due diligence
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: in every investigation, then that would be a great outcome.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: Agreed. Sarah mentioned this, and I thought it was I
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: don't know. I'm just so glad that she like made
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: this comparison because she talked about how her son had
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: sleep terrors basically nightmares, and that strangely, even though they've resolved,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: he has them at the same time every year so far,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: Like and she's like, it's not like we're talking about it.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: It's not like we're like, remember when you were ripped
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: out of the house, Like we don't want to remind
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: him of that, But every year on the anniversary has
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: like a sleeptare and it just goes to show you
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: that that trauma like gets into your body. And obviously
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: you know they're processing it. They're talking about it as
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: a family, but this was like a well resourced family
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: that had their children taken away and didn't know where
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: their kids were for twenty four hours. Horrible, okay, But
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: the idea that people are being taken out of homes
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: without any kind of warrant or paperwork and then being
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: taken to places where their family doesn't know where they are,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: it's traumatic. And that's happening with ice all over our country,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: and no matter what you think of immigration, like that's
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: real trauma. And Sarah said in the interview. Like having
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: a family member ripped out of your house without any
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: prior knowledge, without any paperwork, a stranger who you'd like. Okay,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to take your word for it that
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: you're here legally to take my family member, whether it's
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: a child or a husband or a wife or whoever,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: is not something you ever get over.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: No, that is total devastation. And also these people that
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: are coming in and doing this are armed, I mean,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: terrifying on every level. And also, yeah, you never get
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: over it, like it shouldn't be happening. It should not
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: be happening.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: Lastly, I want to mention Sarah and Josh are documentary
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: filmmakers and their company is Matters Media. We're so grateful
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: for Josh and Sarah for sharing their story with us
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: on the podcast.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: Dam thank you for listening.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: We'll be back next week.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: If you have a story for us, we would love
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: Rightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: at the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky at the
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: Knife Podcast.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: by me Hannah Smith and.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Me Paytia Eating our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: the Airport Artwork five andsa Lilac executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer