Latest / CX Files / Brian Riback - CMSWire 2025 Contributor of the Year - Beyond AI Visibility: How Brands Build Trust

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Brian Riback - CMSWire 2025 Contributor of the Year - Beyond AI Visibility: How Brands Build Trust · CX Files

0:11
Hello and welcome to the CX Files for September 24, 2026.
0:15
My name is Mark Hillary, and I'm in São Paulo, Brazil.
0:20
And I'm Peter Ryan, just back from a trip to Egypt and the Philippines.
0:24
So nice to be back home.
0:26
Not so nice to be dealing with a jet lag.
0:30
Well, that's not much fun.
0:31
That's the worst thing about going on a world trip is dealing with the return home
0:37
and often you end up sort of flying in at five in the morning or something
0:42
and then having to cope with rush hour traffic getting home as well.
0:47
Oh yeah but I guess you know it's the price we pay for the lives we lead in this industry.
0:52
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and by the way, today's my birthday.
0:55
I don't remember having a birthday on an episode date before as well.
1:00
Well, happy birthday!
1:00
I don't know how it feels to turn 29.
1:03
It's been so long, but hope that you are taking full advantage of
1:08
it. Yeah, absolutely.
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I'm sure that they'll be out later on enjoying it.
1:13
Well, this week we've got we're picking up on a subject that we've covered a
1:19
couple of times.
1:20
We talked a few weeks ago to Andrew Cox around AI visibility
1:25
and I saw some stuff written by Brian Riback on CMSWire
1:29
which was focused on how do you build greater trust in your organization,
1:35
especially when everybody is using AI as a visibility tool
1:39
so he's developed some ideas.
1:41
I mean, he calls it trust ops. You know
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it's essentially a sort of he's tried to operationalize this idea of generating
1:50
trust because he's sort of thinking that you need to find some new way of making
1:56
your organization visible in a way that presents the best side you know. Traditionally
2:02
we would have had search engines and then links through to corporate websites
2:07
but this doesn't really work very well anymore.
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So we need to sort of figure out how
2:14
if people are using chatbots and AI as search engines or answer engines, then how
2:20
do you actually create this image of your organization as a BPO that can be
2:26
trusted? This is a really interesting question and you're right;
2:29
it sort of does go a little bit further on from that point of discoverability.
2:33
Because if you're discoverable, that's fantastic.
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But then, how are you positioned?
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That's another thing entirely.
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Yeah and I know that is something that Andrew talked about a couple of weeks ago as
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well because you can ask a chatbot a question about a certain industry
2:48
and possibly your company might be mentioned as a potential solution provider
2:52
but it may actually be a negative thing.
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It may it may say that you're not doing a good job in this industry, even
3:00
if you are so.
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So there's a there's a question there about you know how much do you trust this
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information that is out there as well?
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You know, Mark
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it goes to I think the point that was coming up a lot the last few
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years about things like Google reviews or TripAdvisor reviews.
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You know, it's very easy.
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I shouldn't say it's very easy
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but you can manipulate these reviews if potentially you don't say you don't like
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the owner of a business or you don't like somebody who works at a business.
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You know it doesn't take much to put several bad reviews down that get picked up pretty quickly.
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And the same thing can be done using some of these large language models, some of
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these LLMs and that are so important for the functioning a lot of these AI tools.
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So, the point that's coming up here is a very legitimate one
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and I'd be interested to sort of hear what some of the key learnings are, what
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the way forward is going to be for outsourcers that, quite frankly, are going to
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be so heavily dependent on this level of discoverability
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but not just discoverability
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but also positioning once they've been discovered.
4:05
Yeah. Well when you hear that some BPOs are paying their employees 100 bucks each to write
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favorable Glassdoor reviews, saying this is a great company, come and work here,
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then you start questioning.
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You know, how much should we be trusting any of these sort of review sites that
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are out there,
4:22
yeah, no, 100% Well, look, I can't wait to hear a little bit more about this.
4:30
So let's dive into your interview and see what the what the key trends around
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trust in association with discoverability actually are.
4:42
Hey, Brian, it's great to get you on the CX files.
4:45
I think to kick off, why don't you introduce Labrador Connect?
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You know who you are, where you're based, and what the business does.
4:52
Sure. So Labrador is a consulting service that I started several years ago, but it's.
4:58
It's kind of morphed into just this individual profile
5:02
if you will, of myself and all the content that I've been writing. So you know
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it's like a weird transition where I was known for Labrador
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but now I'm known more as a CMSWire contributor.
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So which which I embrace.
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I think it's an honor. Excuse me.
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I was 2025 contributor of the year with CMSWire.
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I'm pushing to do the same in 2026
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and I love all the content that I write. It's wonderful.
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I also, with my startup, have a new product that I'm going to be launching called
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Version Lab
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and Version Lab does versioning of ads and emails with only a few clicks that are
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specific to different audiences or recipients.
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So it's it's really really cool technology.
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So that's kind of how everything's morphed from Labrador to who I am now.
6:03
Okay, okay, but it's still generally like marketing tech. Then, yeah.
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Oh, that's my everything. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It's like yeah, family music, chicken parmesan, and then marketing tech.
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Well it's your it's your column on CMSWire that caused me to reach out to you because
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I saw you writing something about how marketing heads, how CMOs can build trust
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across the AI agents and the answer engines.
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And this is something that you know I've been thinking a lot about, especially
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over the past year
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because I'd like to ask you though
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because you're you're talking a lot about how do you build trust in like an
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individual executive who's writing content or a company that's writing content.
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It's it's but you've argued that it's not really just a messaging problem anymore.
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It's more like this is actually an operational thing. Yes.
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But what does that mean?
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You know, what does it mean when like a B2B company they used to rely on
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marketing campaigns, analyst relations
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you know, sales teams going out there trying to do lead gen.
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What are you saying about this trust generation then?
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How has it changed?
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Well, the old model treated trust as a communications output
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and where we're at right now
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we need to treat it as an operational constraint.
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You know, it's it's it's so important.
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You know, credibility can't live only in campaigns.
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It can't live only with analysts.
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Credibility is something that with AI, especially
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you need to have it be evidence based. You know
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we need to make sure that you're validating what you're writing, especially with
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things like AEO, with authority.
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Authority can't talk today.
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So you know who was the writer matters.
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If you if you look at a ton of blogs and articles on websites, rare is
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the time unless it's a media company where they're actually writing who wrote the
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thing when they wrote it, right?
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And those are key for AEO.
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They're not heavy lifts for companies.
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They should be simple updates to CMS and things like that.
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But you know, absolutely 100% You know, you know, analysts still matter.
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The content curation still matters.
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It's how you present all of it-that matters so very much right now. Okay, okay.
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And I mean, traditionally, there's been a sort of a split where the marketing team
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is optimizing their work based on you know how many clicks they can get on a
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white paper or a blog. You know
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they're kind of focused on SEO and Google
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and the sales team is focused on outreach and trying to build up connections and
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make contact with people.
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But if what you're saying is that it's AI that is increasingly like the first
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point of contact
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so what kind of mistakes are the B2B companies making then if they're not if
9:20
they're not taking this approach.
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They're not taking an AI first approach, I guess.
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Well, the mistake there, well, from an AEO optimization perspective
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they're not structuring their content correctly
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and they don't seem to have a plan to do that
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which is extremely important.
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They also are ignoring the operational requirements that are necessary in order to
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be able to effectively address this all. Right?
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They keep the same and easier said than done.
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A company that's been in business for 25 years operates a certain way
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and all of a sudden they're being tasked with changing that.
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I 100% understand it's easier said than done, but it's also necessary, right?
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And so one of the biggest mistakes that they're they're making is they're not
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addressing the operational needs to align with the approach that's necessary for
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today. So, and I write a lot about operational readiness.
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It's something that is a passion of mine, something I challenge CEOs on all the
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time. The other thing that is important is that I'm convinced that most companies don't
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really understand how platforms like Perplexity or ChatGPT or Claude how they
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actually work with respect to content generation and things of that nature
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but and when I say context generation in this in this context, what I'm referring
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to is being able to look up sources and making sure that source is reputable for
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the last thing is that a person might just be looking up a statistic
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and you know you sell auto parts
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and you have a response that comes up that 25% of our market purchases auto parts
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in the spring.
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I'm making this up.
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That response is all that person needed, right?
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And what a lot of people do is they'll take it as an authority, even if
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it's some random website.
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But ChatGPT is the source, so it has to be real.
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So you have to differentiate yourself to the point where ChatGPT is not the
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source. You are the source.
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You are the authority
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and that all comes with understanding how all these systems work, having the
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proper infrastructure in place and operational structure in place
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and if you don't have that
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you're going to continue to struggle.
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That's what all the data says.
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I mean that what you're talking about is credibility, then
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and credibility in information about an industry.
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And I suppose traditionally, brand-that's what brands did. You know
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I would listen to Microsoft talking about the cloud or IBM talking about some new
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kind of technology I want to install.
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You know, and I trust them because of their brand. But
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but you know what you're saying is that the content that's created is then used by
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the AI platform to present an answer to someone who's asking a question about that
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subject. So does it is this creating a lot of opportunities for smaller companies to build
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credibility that may have taken traditional brands years to develop.
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Well, there's two answers to that.
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At the highest level, the highest level, there's two types of queries for these AI
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tools, right? There's I'm researching a product or a service that I want to buy, right?
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Or I'm researching for work and I need to get that statistic that we're talking
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about. Right, two very different things.
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I think that smaller companies, well, to a degree, have an advantage they've never
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had before, in that they could get their products to show up if they become an
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authority which you could become an authority without having
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you know, SEO is always about ranking you know
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it was always about ranking
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and there's some of that with the AI
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but it's just treated completely different, right?
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So you do have the opportunity to do it.
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How realistic it is, on the other hand, is the challenge that I have
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because you're up against the big guys who can purchase an entire new department
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that's focused exactly on this stuff
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and so can you really compete with Sony if you're a startup?
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You know, I don't know that is necessarily going to happen.
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At the same time
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you could get help with it because if you're selling on Amazon
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you're selling on Walmart
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you're selling at these bigger companies.
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If you put in
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and this is something I had just done, can't remember what I was converting
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but I needed to convert one input into a different input
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and so I could use it in the device.
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And I didn't know what I needed.
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I didn't know what it was called
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so I went into ChatGPT and I described what I'm looking for
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and it comes up with all sorts of options and stuff.
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That's all indexing, you know, all of that.
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And so these some of these companies are doing it right
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and it really just comes down to setting yourself up for success and
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differentiating yourself from the big guys somehow.
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That's the most important part.
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Yeah I'm interested then in the kind of skills or capabilities that you might need for
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this for this new environment. I mean, let's.
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I mean, if I'm.
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Thinking about an example, let's say I'm a customer service specialist and I'm
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focused on retail brands. You know
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so traditionally I would be publishing blogs and white papers, all talking about
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retail customer service.
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You know, focusing on the keywords and the page ranking and that stuff.
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And what you're saying is that idea of ranking is much less important now
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and what I need to do is build credibility as a provider of those services
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so that ChatGPT will recommend me when someone asks about that subject. Yeah.
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So, so what you need to kind of
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you need to do both because you know SEO is still important
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and if you were to look at it on a table and like a feature comparison chart
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they all build off of each other: SEO, AEO and GEO
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and so you do need to consider ranking.
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It's an extremely important thing
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but the ranking is done through a different approach. Like yes
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you have your keywords and stuff
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but your key phrases and whatnot become questions rather than statements.
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And those questions are what supports the AEO.
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If that makes sense.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And how does that change about like a marketing company that's really focused
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right now on the kind of keywords and publishing stuff that keeps mentioning the
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services? What's the difference in what they should be publishing then if they want to
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influence the AI engines rather than just Google page ranking?
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Oh, if I had that answer, it would it would be a tremendous thing.
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But we have to remember how new AEO is and the whole philosophy of it.
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And so I think there's going to be a lot of trial and error.
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I think there's got to be, but consistent trial and error.
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You have to be consistent because you have to build up your reputation as an
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authority or a source, the proper source for these engines to use you.
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If you put up one article, they're not going to quote you.
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Perplexity is funny because I do market research for my articles
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and I can't tell you how many times I come up as a source and it's interesting
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but I've published a lot of articles for CMSWire
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so it's also not surprising that it would that I would come up as a source
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you know, in Perplexity.
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I've never come up as a source in ChatGPT.
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They just work differently
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so you have to be you know you have to do trial and error and figure
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out how that works,
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and one of the things that you were talking about in your article is corporate
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websites. You know because typically
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I think a lot of B2B brands have expected that companies companies looking for
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their services would go to the website to find more information.
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But you've kind of argued that people are only ever going to the website once
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they've already decided that you're a company that might be able to provide
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services. So, so it's kind of like you've already pre-qualified.
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So, how, what sort of different information should people be putting on their website then?
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I would argue it's not necessarily what information should be different because
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your product is your product, your service is your service.
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I mean, this is what I do.
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This is you know, other than having a separate articles page with interesting
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content relevant to your audience and whatnot
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which I think is extremely important, right?
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You know, the it's the presentation, right?
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Websites are traditionally more brochures than they're anything
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and we need to stop doing that.
18:43
We have to start acting as proof layers that confirm what the person learned in
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ChatGPT or whatever the you know the case may be.
18:52
When I purchased that adapter, five or six of them came up from companies I'd
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never heard of before.
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Well, which one am I going to buy?
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Well, one of them was sold on Amazon.
19:05
There's some credibility there, you know, absolutely.
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So, how do the ones that are not on Amazon compete?
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Why am I going to put my credit card information into some random website that
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I've never gone to before?
19:19
And a lot of that has to do is when I get to the site, how
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they validate their brand.
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You know, they have the trust scores. They have you know
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they even say things like PCI compliant or yeah
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which half the world doesn't know what that means.
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But at the same time, you know, ooh, it's impressive.
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There's a there's a logo
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and so they put these things at the top of their site
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and it validates them.
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And that's not the best user experience
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but it just speaks to the point for what a smaller business can do in order
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to really kind of create the competitiveness.
19:59
So you want to carry on conversations. You want to.
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You know, confirm, clarify
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and correct any sort of misperceptions that a person might have
20:09
and answer questions quickly.
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Why are you here?
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You know, drop down menu.
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Here's the information on all of our programs that address the thing that you're interested in.
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You know, that's the whole thing, use cases and case studies, things like that.
20:24
All of it.
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Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you're talking about building trust as part of the sales process.
20:32
And so I mean, traditionally
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if I was a B2B buyer looking for a company to serve my company
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I'd be going out there doing discovery you know, finding
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you know, who are the possible options, evaluating them, doing vendor comparison.
20:48
So that would mean a lot of conversations and opportunities to build trust with
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potential vendors. And but a lot of that process is now being handled by AI because I'm
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I can do all that kind of comparison work using the tools.
21:06
So how do the B2B brands build any trust then?
21:10
Well, I was looking for a Beaming provider.
21:13
Beamy being giver in your inbox
21:15
you see like the Home Depot logo next to the email, rather than it just being an H
21:22
you know that's beaming
21:23
and so I'm looking for a beamy vendor
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and I go to ChatGPT and say, "Who are all the different Beamy vendors?
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And it lists them, and then I say, "Which Beamy vendor has the best human support?
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It's only going to know that if your website has that information, right?
21:43
So it comes up and it says, "This is these are the top three that I recommend.
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It speaks in first person
21:51
that are going to give you the best possible customer service experience.
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Doesn't mean it's right, by the way
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but now I have a little bit more trust because I trust ChatGPT.
22:04
I probably shouldn't, but I do. Right?
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It's it's as simple as that. And so I
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you know, things like reviews and testimonials will always be one of the number
22:15
one drivers of trust because there's nothing that will ever surpass personal
22:20
recommendations you know, going to brand to brand.
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But in the B2B space, you know, you got to be a little more apprehensive.
22:29
And so, part of the thing is you have to know a question to ask.
22:35
One of the fundamental problems with FAQs, as long as they've been used, is that
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they presume you know a question to ask
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so you could go to a ChatGPT and not know a question to ask
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and write what should I be considering when I'm thinking about getting a CDP?
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You know, what should I be considering when engaging with a sales team at a CRM
23:00
company, what questions should I ask?
23:03
The B2B company should be doing the exact same thing
23:07
so they know which questions to have prepared and which questions they should
23:12
answer on their website all the time.
23:14
But that type of real time interaction and real time spent on that's your new
23:20
market research to some degree, right?
23:22
You've always wanted to know what questions a potential client is going to have
23:28
and you always have the best ofs ready to go.
23:32
But how great would it be if you're constantly updating your website with more
23:37
information based on the questions that you see being asked, right?
23:41
I think that's one of the number one things.
23:45
You know, what's the perceived weakness is important
23:48
and being able to address that and changing changing minds through getting the
23:53
content to be updated.
23:54
What you don't want is all of the information within ChatGPT coming from g2 crowd,
24:00
right? You want to be able to surpass that with information that you have and that you're
24:07
building up and you're answering
24:08
so that you could be used as a source for your own information.
24:14
Yeah it sounds like you're you need like an operational team that's focused
24:18
specifically on building trust and you know
24:21
but where should that sit?
24:23
Is that part of marketing, or is that part of sales, or is it something completely separate?
24:30
Well when I interviewed Andrew Frank from Gartner, brilliant man, he was talking to me
24:36
about something he wrote in a press release regarding trust ops
24:40
and trust ops is excuse me, essentially a committee of people that comes from
24:46
marketing communications, your PR department, your legal department, IT,
24:49
cybersecurity, whatever you have in your company, all come together
24:54
and that operational structure.
24:55
Is what monitors, governs
24:57
and protects how brand is represented across all AI systems.
25:01
So it's a very interesting kind of new operating world.
25:05
But okay, so all these people come together.
25:08
What do they do, right?
25:10
Well, they sit in a room and say hi to each other. No they're creating playbooks
25:17
you know, to figure out how they could become an authority and how to address
25:23
incidents that might come up.
25:25
You know, how do you do that? My opinion:
25:29
I'm I'm vendor agnostic
25:30
but I've never heard anyone use the term trust ops other than Gartner.
25:35
So while I'm sure there's other vendors that provide it.
25:40
Look up Gartner, look up Trust Ops.
25:42
You know, go through them or a vendor that offers it
25:47
and let that be your guide. It's important enough.
25:51
Well I mean
25:52
you've talked about building credibility, authenticity, showing that you have
25:56
expertise by publishing ideas and answering the questions that your clients are
26:02
probably going to ask
26:04
but everybody today can publish at scale. You know
26:08
I can go to ChatGPT and churn out 20 blogs a day talking about the stuff
26:15
that my company does.
26:17
So, how do I generate that kind of authenticity when my competitor might just be
26:23
churning out 10,000 words a day for their website
26:28
because that doesn't matter.
26:29
I don't think part of this is opinion
26:32
and I don't usually talk through the lens of opinion.
26:35
I talk through the lens of data
26:38
but all of this is so new
26:40
so it's some of it has to be educated guesses based on what's happened in history
26:46
and we can't ignore history.
26:47
I think that if you're writing AI generated content, what you're ultimately doing
26:52
is there's not necessarily a problem with AI generated content
26:55
but long form content.
26:57
I believe there is still very much a need for a writer because if your article
27:02
is citing Forrester
27:03
that's not going to help you.
27:06
That's citing third party.
27:07
So you know ChatGPT is going to see that
27:10
and they're going to link you to Forrester.
27:13
They're not going to link through you.
27:15
It's called borrowed reputation, right?
27:17
And it's not anything that's going to be a benefit to you.
27:21
So what you want to do is you want to again.
27:25
I said this before is you want to have named subject matter experts.
27:30
These are people that become authorities within your brand. Very very important.
27:34
Original Research very important, very expensive
27:36
but and so I'm not saying that everybody could do it.
27:40
But you know something, a lot more companies could do it than think they can.
27:45
Pick up a phone.
27:46
It's amazing what happens when you pick up a phone these days because people are
27:52
so not used to it.
27:53
You know, it's it's it's one of these things. May use SMS. survey people. Go out.
27:59
Just do it.
28:00
It doesn't have to be expensive.
28:02
It just has your time is worth money, of course.
28:06
But go out there, do it.
28:08
You just do it.
28:09
Get your surveys together.
28:11
Get a representative sample. Ask the questions. Get the information.
28:14
Put it on your site. It's not crazy. Use customer evidence. Get more testimonials.
28:19
Don't use the one from 2006.
28:21
You know, get fresh testimonials.
28:23
Put them onto your site.
28:24
Make that you know happen. Personally
28:27
when I'm on Amazon and I look at reviews
28:30
and the last review was from 2023
28:32
I don't buy the product because now I don't feel like people are buying it.
28:37
You know, recently, which is important.
28:40
some websites will say this. What's it called?
28:43
26 sold in the last hour.
28:45
Brilliant thing to put on your website.
28:48
You know, this is the kind of stuff that's really going to happen.
28:53
And then human availability. Make it easy.
28:56
Make it stupid easy to reach a human, especially if you can't afford a customer
29:02
level, customer with a K, customer level AI chatbot or something along those
29:07
lines. I mean, what should what should the head of marketing be measuring then to know
29:13
that they are having some sort of impact?
29:15
Should they be like?
29:17
Should they be testing the different answer engines and asking questions about
29:21
their industry to see if their company is ever mentioned.
29:25
Yeah I mean
29:26
I think to some degree it helps them refine their their customer profiles or ICPS.
29:31
I think it helps them in refining their MQLs, marketing qualified leads.
29:36
So I think they should be looking at data that's going to help to refine that,
29:42
make it more accurate.
29:44
So I do think that's a very important thing.
29:47
I think they should still be looking at leads in their pipelines, looking at
29:52
conversion rates but stop with the awareness.
29:55
Awareness is one of my naughty words.
29:58
I never use that word in relation to.
30:01
Business or marketing-it's you can't measure it. It's not quantifiable
30:05
and you don't care how many people saw something on ChatGPT that references your
30:10
company name. There is literally nothing about that is impressive.
30:14
So this whole idea of impressions and you know that get that out of your head.
30:20
How many people are clicking through to your site and showing an interest in the
30:25
product or the service or sign up for your newsletter
30:29
which is important because if you're if you're not selling a tangible product and
30:35
you sell a service or you're a media company
30:38
you want to get the person to come in so you can nurture them and make
30:44
them not interested in the product or the 25% metric that they looked up, convert
30:50
them from being interested in that to becoming interested to you
30:54
and that's what I would be measuring is how many people are we nurturing based on
31:00
how many you know people are coming through
31:03
and I think that's very important.
31:06
I mean, traditionally, sales and marketing have had quite different roles
31:10
and they've been quite siloed.
31:12
Do you think that in a few years we'll see not just sales and marketing coming closer together
31:20
but also this emphasis on the whole purpose of both sales and marketing is to earn
31:26
trust. Yeah I've I've had my share of experiences with sales teams and whatnot
31:31
and I think that there is a fundamental problem now, or even historically, with
31:37
how marketing and sales teams work together, defining roles and responsibilities
31:41
being at the top of that list
31:43
and really understanding what makes sales work, what makes marketing work.
31:48
You know, salespeople are all about I got to get to sales
31:52
I got to get sales quickly as possible.
31:55
But marketing people understand you have to nurture the lead
31:59
and it takes a little bit of time
32:02
and you want to get communications through.
32:04
So I actually don't think that's an AI problem at all, right? I don't.
32:10
I don't think AI has much to do with it.
32:13
I think it has to do with marketing properly setting up automations.
32:18
Fine if AI is involved in that and figuring out how to target messaging and things
32:24
of that nature
32:25
but it is without question a matter of marketing leading the show, in my opinion,
32:31
with everybody being accountable for the revenue that comes in, right?
32:35
And if everybody's accountable for the revenue.
32:38
Marketing says, "Oh well, we did our best based on the data.
32:42
No, that doesn't work that way.
32:44
I think they all have to work together and work in a very specific order.
32:50
And I don't think AI has much to do with it.
32:54
It changes the framework, changes how they actually operate.
32:57
But I don't think that from a workflow perspective
33:01
it should change from anything but that.
33:04
Well I mean, just to wrap up, then because we're sort of focused on CX
33:09
and I was just thinking that advocacy has always been important with CX.
33:14
You know, basically, people will share on social media saying I had a great
33:20
experience with this company
33:21
and that kind of enhances the reputation of that brand.
33:25
Do you think that this is becoming even more important in an environment where
33:31
brands need to develop a reputation and create a sense of trust?
33:35
Because we're going into a sort of AI first buying world.
33:39
So this idea that great CX then creates a sort of virtuous cycle.
33:45
I think it's a misconception that we're going into an AI first world with this.
33:50
There is nothing ever that's going to be better, as I said before, than a personal recommendation.
33:56
If you go to these mom and dad groups on Facebook, and you're a local plumber.
34:02
You want to have such a good experience with a customer that when people say I
34:08
need a plumber
34:09
you have to call Jim.
34:10
You have to call Susie, right?
34:13
That is how it's got to work.
34:15
I don't think a big brand is ever going to be able to get access to that.
34:21
I think that is where small businesses thrive
34:24
and where they have the you know they have it locked down
34:28
and where bigger companies are going to put an advertisement on the side for
34:33
plumbing that nobody ever clicks on
34:36
and if they click on it, there is very little conversion rate, right?
34:40
So I think there's a time and a place for everything
34:44
but I think that the customer experience on social specifically is going to remain very personal
34:50
and I don't see big companies coming in and being able to have leverage over small
34:56
in that world.
34:57
I could be wrong, but.
34:59
I just don't see it.
35:01
All right, I mean that's that's great.
35:02
I mean, what are you up to next then?
35:05
Just just to close out, have you got anything interesting going on?
35:08
Well, I'm working on Version Lab, which I mentioned earlier.
35:11
It is it's versionlab.io.
35:13
If anybody wants to kind of look it up, it's not 100% launched yet.
35:18
We're looking for some alpha users though, not necessarily paid users
35:22
but people that might be interested that are more on the creative side that do ad
35:27
generation, email generation
35:28
so they can kind of check out what the tool is doing.
35:33
So that's what I'm working on mostly, and of course my writings.
35:37
You know, so you can look me up on CMSWire and some great stuff coming out. I have
35:43
I think, eight articles submitted that'll be
35:46
you know, coming out over the next several weeks.
35:49
So that's what I'm doing, and of course, being a dad. So
35:54
yeah, I know about that. Yeah, definitely.
35:55
All right, that's great, Brian.
35:57
Thanks very much for the update.
35:59
We'll make sure there's all the links in the show notes for your writing and
36:03
everything else. Okay. Awesome, man!
36:06
Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's been great.
36:18
Thanks for listening to the CX Files podcast.
36:19
We really appreciate your feedback and suggestions.
36:20
You can reach myself, Mark Hillary, or Peter Ryan via LinkedIn.
36:22
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36:25
helps more people to find us. As always
36:26
we'd like to thank Chris Haig at Traction Media for the CX Files graphics. See you next week.