Latest / Future Christian / Aligning Church Life with the Gospel: Sheryl Johnson on Stewardship, Justice, and Everyday Faith

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Aligning Church Life with the Gospel: Sheryl Johnson on Stewardship, Justice, and Everyday Faith · Future Christian

0:07
Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Cheryl
0:50
Johnson. Cheryl is a settler on Olon land and was
0:54
born in Treaty 1 territory in what is colonially
0:58
known as Winnipeg, Canada. She began teaching at
1:02
UH Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary in the
1:04
fall of 2020 as UH she was defending her Ph.D. in
1:07
theology and ethics at UH Graduate Theological
1:11
Union. Her dissertation focused on the
1:14
intersections of social justice, racial, economic,
1:17
gender, etc. And ecclesial practices, specifically
1:21
stewardship, finance, and polity. A book based on
1:25
her dissertation, Serving Money, Serving Aligning
1:28
Radical Justice, Christian Practice and Church
1:31
Life, was published by Fortress Press in 2023.
1:35
Cheryl is an ordained minister in the United
1:38
Church of Canada with dual standing in the United
1:41
Church of Christ. Cheryl is passionate about
1:44
embodied, participatory, and critical pedagogies
1:48
and supporting students to make connections
1:51
between justice commitments and vocational
1:53
practices. A reminder before we start today's
1:57
convers, please take a moment to subscribe to the
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podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian
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with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and
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Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email@,
2:11
uh, laurensonatemediapro.com with comments,
2:15
questions or ideas for future episodes. We
2:19
appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern
2:22
the future of the church.
2:33
Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
2:35
This is Loren Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased
2:38
to be joined by Reverend Dr. Cheryl Johnson. Hello
2:42
and welcome to the podcast.
2:43
Sheryl Johnson: Thanks so much. Glad to be here.
2:46
Loren: Looking forward to having this conversation with
2:48
you. Is there anything else you want to say about
2:49
yourself for our listeners?
2:52
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, I mean, just I, uh, would add that I love,
2:56
um, backpacking, I love the outdoors, I love
2:58
exploring new places, and I love having good
3:01
conversations. So happy to get to have that today
3:03
with you all.
3:04
Loren: Yeah, I hope we will have a good conversation for
3:07
sure today. Share, if you would, a little bit
3:09
about your faith journey, what that looked like in
3:11
the past and what that looks like today.
3:13
Sheryl Johnson: Great question. I would say I'm. I feel very
3:16
fortunate. I grew up, um, in A mainline church
3:20
that was, um, committed to, um, serving others, to
3:25
be an expansive understanding of faith, uh,
3:28
working alongside people of other faiths. So for
3:30
me, I feel like I had um, yeah, a good upbring in
3:34
the church. Definitely a lot of service projects,
3:36
um, a lot of really supportive, um, mentors. So
3:40
for me, um, church was a really affirming and
3:43
supportive, uh, place. And I got invited into a
3:45
lot of leadership roles too, from a young age. So
3:47
that was a huge privilege.
3:50
Loren: And share a few, Excuse me, Share a few words.
3:52
Kind of how you found your way into ministry from
3:54
that.
3:54
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, um,
3:57
a lot of it was, you know, from, from those
3:59
mentors about the power of faith communities to do
4:03
good in the world, to support both internally, um,
4:07
members, but then also to engage those members and
4:09
equip those members, uh, for work and service to
4:12
the community. To me that seemed really exciting.
4:14
There was something maybe a little countercultural
4:16
also about going into ministry. That appealed to
4:19
me as something that kind of challenges, um, some
4:22
of the ideas around productivity, um, in our
4:25
world, um, even though ministry can become a lot
4:28
of that too. But I think the idea of studying
4:31
ancient texts, of wrestling, uh, wrestling with
4:33
big questions with folks, um, yeah, to me that
4:36
seemed a little countercultural a little bit. Um,
4:38
maybe it seemed at least at the time, like a way
4:41
to, um, get out of some more competitive spaces,
4:44
um, that you maybe kind of not the competition is
4:47
bad, but some of those more kind of ruthlessly
4:49
competitive or always having to perform spaces
4:51
that I had been in. So, um, yeah, that's a little
4:54
bit of the story that I'd share.
4:57
Loren: I mean it sounds a little bit about. Sounds a
4:59
little bit like what we're going to talk about. Of
5:02
living according to different values.
5:04
Sheryl Johnson: Exactly.
5:05
Martha Tatarnic: Yep.
5:05
Sheryl Johnson: I think it's. You can look back and always find
5:07
seeds, um, seeds of every story that start long
5:10
before you ever would have imagined.
5:13
Loren: That's a great point. It's a great point.
5:15
Uh, share if you would, any kind of spiritual
5:17
practices that you're willing to talk about that
5:19
you, you found meaningful.
5:22
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think I love all
5:25
of the ones that probably are going to be common
5:27
to folks, but um, spending time in nature, spend.
5:31
Spending time in meditation and yoga and movement,
5:34
all of those really resonate um, with me. But also
5:38
just the. The practice of um, you know, being in
5:41
new spaces. I think for me kind of getting out of
5:43
my patterns, um, being in, in different
5:46
communities, um, moving between different spaces.
5:49
I think for me is Always very, very spiritual to
5:51
be um, not able to just default, you know, kind of
5:54
go, go my own patterns. But having to um, be
5:57
challenged, to be more present to where I am
6:00
because I don't have pattern, uh, to me is always
6:04
a spiritual practice.
6:07
Loren: That's a good one. I can appreciate, even though I
6:10
don't appreciate, because I don't like constant
6:12
change, but I can appreciate the importance of
6:15
setting yourself up for new experiences. So I'm
6:19
glad you shared that.
6:21
Well, we're here to talk to Cheryl today about her
6:23
book Serving Money Serving Aligning Radical
6:27
Justice, Christian Practice and Church Life. And I
6:30
think. I think as we mentioned we'll kind of. You
6:34
already kind of teased about kind of a. A very
6:37
strong theme in the book of uh, aligning practice
6:40
with your values and which lead. Kind of leads
6:45
into. My first question here is early in the book
6:48
you stress the importance of being in spaces that
6:51
keep us accountable to our values. So kind of talk
6:55
more about that and how that was a helpful
6:57
framework for you in this book.
6:59
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, thanks for the question. I think for me, um,
7:03
being in spaces that are going to be reminding us
7:06
of our values that are going to be challenging us
7:08
to go deeper. I think it's so important because
7:11
there's so many spaces around us that are going to
7:12
be doing the opposite. You know, I think there's
7:14
going to be um. There's always factors around us,
7:17
there's advertising. There's just the people that
7:20
are around us who um, are going to be shaping us
7:24
in other ways. So I think if we want to be
7:26
avoiding um, you know, values like materialism or
7:31
um, values like um, you know, racial separation,
7:34
if we're going to be wanting to value um, other.
7:37
Other ways of being. If we're going to be wanting
7:39
to um, you know, building a more. Just be building
7:41
a more just world, I think um, we need to be kind
7:44
of immersed in. In spaces that are going to
7:46
support us in doing that and challenge us to go
7:48
deeper. And so I think for me a big part of it is
7:51
um, just knowing that we're getting this constant
7:53
counter programming all the time that's teaching
7:56
us um, you know, not sustainably or teaching us
8:00
that our value only comes from our productivity.
8:05
Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's good. Thanks for sharing that.
8:07
Something else again related to this emphasis
8:10
again that you have undergirding the whole book,
8:12
at least as I read it, is again on this value, uh,
8:16
you talk about. So many of us were trained in
8:20
these uh, uh, themes of avoiding privilege and
8:25
being aware of privilege and Oppression from
8:28
theology and care and so much others. But it
8:32
doesn't often come up in church admin, church
8:35
administration. And it was interesting because I
8:38
also recently did a course recently on church
8:43
administration and the author made a different but
8:45
similar point that when it comes to church admin,
8:49
we often just like abandon. Maybe an abandon's too
8:53
strong word, but I don't know. Forget act, uh, as
8:56
if our Christian values don't exist and purely
8:59
operate from a business or marketplace mentality.
9:02
Do you want to talk more about the importance of
9:05
awareness of values when it comes to church
9:07
administration and logistics?
9:10
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, thanks for that question. I think it's so
9:14
common. I think when we think about social
9:16
justice, um, often we think about, okay, we should
9:19
have a committee to focus on that, or maybe we
9:21
should have an outreach program. We should have
9:23
that as a topic for um, a sermon. But I think that
9:28
that is important. But, um, it doesn't do
9:31
everything if we only talk about something, um, it
9:33
doesn't mean that we need to practice living into
9:35
that as well. So I think that our church, um,
9:39
finances our administrative practices, how we
9:42
treat staff, uh, how we treat volunteers. All of
9:45
these things are opportunities for us to practice,
9:48
um, putting those social justice values, um, into
9:50
practice. And also, as I said before, there's a
9:54
lot of other wisdom that's going to be, maybe not
9:56
wisdom, but there's a lot of, um, worldviews that
9:59
are going to be encouraging us not to do that. So,
10:02
you know, we might think, well, we should just get
10:04
the cheapest products possible, um, you know, for
10:07
our, um, for our church because, you know, that'll
10:09
save money and that's one worldview that's going
10:11
to come in or like, let's see how little we can
10:13
get away with paying our staff. Um, some of these
10:16
ideas, um, that to me at least, aren't rooted in
10:18
our values. Um, they're going to come in when we
10:21
are focused on other, other orientations, such as
10:24
trying to, um, you know, keep expenses low so that
10:27
then we have to do less work to fundraise.
10:29
Instance, um, some of those other practices are
10:32
going to start to take over if we aren't
10:34
constantly reorienting ourselves towards what do
10:36
we actually believe and how does that, um,
10:38
manifest in this particular aspect of church life?
10:43
Loren: I suppose this is an easy one to pick on, but
10:45
since you mentioned it, and I'm glad you did, I
10:47
think it's important to emphasize I get frustrated
10:50
when I see churches that definitely label
10:52
themselves as progressive and then, you know,
10:54
they'll, they'll promote a job listing and be like
10:57
$15 an hour, $20 an hour. And you know, maybe in
11:02
some places those are great or adequate salaries,
11:05
but, you know, certainly not in my neck of the
11:07
woods. I know you work in Canada, right? And I
11:10
think also the Pacific Northwest. So those are
11:12
expensive places to live, I imagine.
11:15
Sheryl Johnson: Exactly. I think that's a perfect example. Um, I
11:18
think that people, you know, and I think that
11:20
people in society, you know, they, they read those
11:22
job postings even if they're not going to apply
11:24
for that job. And I think that tells them
11:25
something about our church right there. They,
11:27
okay, you know, they're operating according to,
11:30
trying to, you know, get away with, um, you know,
11:32
maybe the least that they can afford. They, that
11:34
they can get away with paying or they're trying
11:36
to, um, you know, they're not sort of thinking
11:39
about living wages. They're not trying to support
11:41
holistic living, or maybe they devalue certain
11:43
types of work like the rest of society tends to
11:45
devalue custodial work, devalue work with
11:47
children, you know, some of these, uh, types of
11:50
roles. So I think that even the job posting is a
11:52
theological document and it communicates a lot to
11:55
the wider public about, um, what we value and what
11:57
we practice. And then on the other hand, if we do
11:59
the opposite, I think even people who would never
12:01
apply for that job are going to see, oh, wow,
12:04
they're actually, you know, they're really trying
12:06
to support, um, a good life, um, through this, um,
12:10
through this salary, for instance. And I think
12:12
that that, um, you know, that also from a positive
12:15
lens, has potential as well.
12:18
Loren: Right.
12:18
And this is something that I appreciate about your
12:21
book, is that you really, again, leaned heavily
12:24
into being aligned with your values. You know, you
12:27
talk right there about what we hire for and, and
12:33
the benefits or, or pay being a theological
12:36
statement. I mean, you write that the details of
12:38
church, like church life, matter. You know, I'm
12:42
thinking you make early on the illustration about
12:45
church being a foretaste of, of God's kingdom,
12:48
God's reign. Share more about how that helps you
12:52
filter decisions when you're working with your own
12:56
church or other churches.
12:58
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think in a lot of
13:01
ways that comes back to the first question you
13:03
asked about being in spaces that help to keep us
13:05
accountable to our values. I think that if, in our
13:08
churches, if we are having, uh, norms of infusing
13:12
justice into everything we do, then I think that
13:15
that's going to be modeling for all of our
13:17
members, for anyone who comes into contact with
13:19
us, um, that's going to give them a vision for
13:21
what to do maybe in their own business or in their
13:24
own family or um. In their own work, um, and
13:27
volunteer work in other places. So I think that
13:30
um. It has a matter that it matters on a practical
13:34
level that we're helping to model the sort of
13:36
values we want to infuse in the rest of society.
13:39
Um, but at the same time, I think on a more
13:41
theological level, I mean if we are here trying to
13:45
um, anticipate um. The. The coming of a realm
13:50
where justice is. And God's, um. God's presence is
13:53
so infused in everything, I think we need to um,
13:57
think about our administration in a way that
13:58
really has deep theological significance as well.
14:01
So it's not only um, kind of an educational, um,
14:05
step, but it's also um. One that's going to have I
14:09
think, um, spiritual implications too. We're
14:12
forming ourselves, we're forming our communities
14:15
and we are um, wanting to infuse um, spirituality
14:20
into um, everything we're doing.
14:24
Loren: Yeah, I know we're harping on this point, but I
14:28
think it's an important point. I remember early on
14:32
in my pastoral ministry working with the church
14:36
that I was on staff at or the solo pastor at, and
14:40
trying to have this conversation around their
14:41
bylaws and being like, here's how your bylaws
14:45
connect to our mission. And there was just this
14:47
total disconnect, uh, you know, this. This
14:50
unawareness that how they ran the business meeting
14:55
or the council meeting. I forget, you know, which
14:57
context, how they called it, what. And I'm sure
14:59
you've seen that before, right? This disconnect
15:01
between they're living out their mission on a
15:05
Sunday morning or midweek or whatever during the
15:08
week versus how they ran their business meetings.
15:10
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, definitely. No, I think that kind of siloed
15:13
thinking unfortunately is very common. I think
15:16
that we've been. I mean, I think it's an element
15:18
of white supremacy, this idea, uh, of siloed
15:21
thinking and sort of saying, okay, we can, you
15:23
know, do this work. We can work in this way over
15:26
here. But when it comes to administration, um, or
15:29
it comes to the way we run a meeting, for
15:31
instance, um, we can, you know, we have to follow
15:33
the models that we think are best and right. And
15:36
we're taught that our value neutral, when actually
15:38
they're really infused with their own values. So I
15:41
think it's. Unfortunately it's very common. But I
15:44
do think that there's a lot of potential when we
15:46
use other methods for meeting when we rethink our
15:49
bylaws or rethink whether or not we even need
15:51
perhaps so many bylaws, um, I think that it also
15:54
can have um, a huge impact to. Should we re be
15:58
kind of jamming with that? Because people don't
15:59
expect it and it's so uncommon that I think it
16:01
really um, is surprising for folks.
16:05
Loren: Well, this is something where I appreciate you
16:07
talked about naming the forces that shape us.
16:10
Because even if someone's like oh, I don't know
16:12
about, you know, I know Robert's Rules of War, for
16:14
instance, has gotten a lot of grief in recent
16:18
years and uh, I don't really have that strong
16:20
feelings about Robert's Rules of War, for
16:22
instance. But I think even if we're just like
16:24
naming like, oh, I've always been taught that
16:27
Robert's Rules of Order is how you run the
16:28
meeting. Like just being aware of that, for
16:30
instance, can help maybe bring more awareness and
16:34
like, oh, maybe does Robert's Rules of Order
16:36
needed to be like the entire framework through
16:39
which I think about meetings or whatever kind of
16:41
uh, value or forces that you, you talk about.
16:46
Sheryl Johnson: Exactly. No, I appreciate that.
16:47
Loren: Have you seen that played out?
16:49
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I think that it's really helpful to
16:52
look at what, what is behind those values and I
16:54
think when we can see, you know, what, what aims
16:56
are they trying to orient us towards? Are they
16:58
trying to orient us towards cost saving or
17:01
efficiency or uh, minimizing outward conflict? And
17:05
we can look back and say, okay, what's, what's
17:07
behind those value, um, certain class norms, for
17:12
instance. Is that um, um, a devaluing of the
17:16
earth? Is that um, a um, you know, uprising of
17:21
certain forms of communication, whatever the case
17:24
may be. I think that when we can identify what's
17:27
going on, identify what systems it's connected to,
17:29
we can then better see, okay, this is why um,
17:32
these, these systems are not neutral and why um.
17:35
If we are a church that's committed to anti
17:37
oppressive principles, then clearly we have to be
17:41
very caut about what systems we adopt.
17:45
Loren: Tell me if you, tell me if you agree with this
17:47
statement or what your thoughts are, because I
17:48
think about it in this way too. Like in America we
17:53
tend to think, like we tend to think that things
17:58
are free when there's really nothing free. Right.
18:00
There's no such thing as a free lunch. And I
18:04
almost wonder, is that too simplistic way to maybe
18:07
say it or think about it? There's always a get
18:10
unaccounted for costs of what we're affirming. In
18:13
some ways, is that fair?
18:15
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, I think so. I think that, um. Yeah, maybe
18:19
sometimes we think that everything is. Is free.
18:21
Maybe sometimes we think that there's nothing
18:23
that's free. But all of these, yeah, ideologies,
18:25
um, they come from somewhere. And I think if we
18:28
are just assuming that they're natural, normal,
18:30
inevitable, the best way, um, chances are we are
18:33
being deceived. So we need to, uh, figure. Figure
18:37
out, um. Yeah. Who. Where did these ideas come
18:40
from and how they operating now? Whose voices are
18:44
they lifting up and whose voices are they, um,
18:47
inhibiting or holding back? For sure.
18:51
Loren: I want to read a long or sort of a long quote from
18:54
your book. Kind of middle of page 66. So you write
18:58
that theologically and pastorally. Excuse me,
19:01
Pastorally. Can't say that word today. There is
19:04
much to be gained by naming and living into
19:07
lament, anxiety, frustration and uncertainty. We
19:10
allow a community to grapple together with a
19:13
challenging situation rather than manipulating
19:16
them to feel good so they will want to give. So I
19:19
want to set that quote up this way. You know that
19:22
your book is, at least as I understand it,
19:25
primarily about giving and fundraising. And for
19:28
anyone who's received any kind of fundraising
19:30
training, it's always like, oh, everything's great
19:33
and fabulous, and never let them see like, the
19:37
things aren't working. And talk about why you
19:41
think it's, uh, so important to have that other
19:44
aspect of it.
19:45
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, thanks for the question. So, yeah, I mean, I
19:49
think it's several reasons. I think that
19:51
sometimes, I mean, as you've already, I think,
19:53
alluded to, people see through that. People see
19:55
through that 100%, you know, positive, always, you
19:59
know, constructive, always bigger and better and
20:02
newer, and we're gonna, you know, sweep those
20:05
issues, um, under the rug, I think. Think it's.
20:07
Yeah, it's. It leads to, um, you know, a sense of
20:10
in group and out group. You know, the people who
20:12
know the real challenges versus the people who are
20:14
being, um, kept out of. Out of that information.
20:18
That can be, um, one of the challenges. It can be
20:21
really. Um, I think it can lead to a sense of
20:24
disconnect for people who feel this pressure to
20:26
always have a good story to tell, even when things
20:29
are going, um, not so well. And also, I think it
20:32
doesn't invite, um, the wider community into
20:34
figuring out solutions together. I'm not saying
20:37
that we should just, you know, dwell in the
20:39
negative. I think that's not at all what I'm
20:41
trying to say. But I'm saying that if we kind of
20:44
are honest about Some of the challenges that we're
20:46
facing. We can include others in helping to
20:49
overcome them, for instance, or we can at least
20:52
share that we're aware of why things haven't
20:54
worked before. And here's what we're doing
20:56
differently this time, for instance. So I think it
20:58
just leads to a more honest, a more integrated,
21:02
and a more, um, ultimately participatory community
21:05
if we are, um, yeah. Able to share both the
21:09
successes and some of the failures and some of the
21:11
complexity of what is even success or failure. If
21:14
there's disagreement about some of those metrics.
21:17
Loren: Yeah. And this is something I'm thinking about in
21:21
that same section. You know, you talk about. I
21:24
won't name the denomination you do in your book,
21:29
but, you know, you write about, like, a certain
21:30
mainline denomination always being so kind of
21:33
like, cheerful and bright about meeting their
21:38
goals. And then you kind of did some digging and
21:41
we're like, oh, we've actually lowered the goal
21:43
each year. It just feels like. I don't know, it
21:48
just feels like someone who's paying attention
21:50
would be like, you know, I hate to this. It's kind
21:53
of a brash way of saying it. Right. But polishing
21:57
the turd, so to speak. Right. If you're not being
21:58
honest about what's really happening, happening
22:00
totally well.
22:01
Sheryl Johnson: And then when there's these needs for cuts, people
22:03
are confused or say, well, where's that coming
22:06
from? You always say you meet the goal. You always
22:09
have this, you know, um, great story to tell. And
22:12
then people feel totally, um, blindsided when
22:15
then, you know, all these cuts are. Keep on
22:17
happening, and people are like, what is this
22:19
disconnect? And I think it leads to people feeling
22:21
disengaged from church, leads to people feeling
22:23
disillusioned, people feeling like there's secrets
22:26
that they're not part of. You know, it's. It's
22:28
all, um. It's all really disorienting. Plus, um,
22:32
you know, maybe those people might have stepped up
22:33
to give more if they had known. Okay, here's
22:35
actually, you know, what's needed to sustain the
22:38
work or to build the work or whatever the case may
22:41
be. I mean, it really cuts people out of creative
22:44
solutions and creative engagement when they're
22:46
being told, oh, no, don't worry, you know,
22:48
everything's fine. You know, that's really not
22:50
helpful.
22:52
Loren: Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, I'm really
22:53
glad you bring that up. You know, I'm thinking,
22:57
obviously, be. There can be a point of going
23:00
overboard.
23:01
Sheryl Johnson: Sure.
23:01
Loren: At least in my own experience, where you're like.
23:04
Where you're like, this is a sinking ship. And
23:06
everybody feels like they want to get off of it.
23:08
Because I've been there, like, uh, you know, I've
23:12
led meetings where it's like, well, we're in a
23:14
tough spot, but if we work together, we can make
23:16
it through. And we did. And then I've. I've been
23:19
outside of meetings where they kind of presented
23:21
it as a sinking ship. And then it was like, oh, we
23:23
gotta get out of it.
23:25
Sheryl Johnson: Totally. And I think you're so right to say there.
23:27
There's definitely an extreme. The other side. Um,
23:30
that. That also we don't want to go to. But I
23:32
think there can be, uh, a lot of middle ground for
23:34
being both honest about the challenges, but also,
23:37
you know, assuring people that leadership are
23:38
working on it, um, that there are ideas, that
23:41
there are new plans being tried. Um, or just
23:44
saying at a certain point, too. I think that not
23:46
everything always has to be resurrected in a way.
23:48
Maybe, you know, there's just been a decision to
23:51
be made that, you know, that.
23:52
Martha Tatarnic: That.
23:52
Sheryl Johnson: That a certain thing needs to end. And I think
23:54
that's okay. But I think upfront about that, if
23:57
that's what we're thinking, and allow for
23:59
different voices to weigh in on that and, um, have
24:03
space to really process and grieve and lament and,
24:07
um, sort of, you know, work together as a
24:09
community, um, when those challenging decisions
24:12
need to be made.
24:14
Loren: Yeah. I'm glad you're. I'm glad we're kind of
24:18
staying. We're staying on this point because I
24:21
think it's really important, and I think you're
24:22
bringing up some really good things here. One
24:24
about, like, including other people. Because
24:27
again, I'm thinking of a situation in a church
24:29
where I led where folks were like, oh, I didn't. I
24:31
didn't realize we needed more meaning, more money
24:34
to start giving more a. Like, I'm thinking of two.
24:39
Like you said about, oh, maybe we can't afford
24:42
this anymore. Maybe we do need to. To see it, you
24:46
know, see it end. And it doesn't have to be, like,
24:49
on. On a leader or a small group of leaders making
24:52
the hard decision on their own. Yeah. Or at least
24:55
I imagine people have been kind of primed for,
24:57
like, oh, we're gonna have to make some hard
24:59
decisions here.
25:00
Sheryl Johnson: Totally. Yeah. And I would say it even extends to
25:03
rental groups, for instance, even people that we
25:05
might not think of as really, you know, taking
25:07
ownership of our. Of our church. But a lot of
25:09
times when those folks say you know, wait a minute
25:11
here. You know, you're not putting an elevator in
25:13
because you don't think you could fundraise it.
25:15
Wait a minute. You know, let, let us participate.
25:18
Let us step in, let us try. And I think that, um,
25:21
we don't want to, you know, preclude, um, people's
25:24
efforts because I think that a lot of times, um,
25:27
yeah, when we share, you know, I think on a
25:28
personal level, I think we, many of us have
25:30
experienced this when we hold our problems in, no
25:33
one can help. Right. And sometimes when we share
25:35
that we're struggling with something, um, you
25:37
know, sometimes people really step in and surprise
25:40
us and help us out in all kinds of ways we
25:42
couldn't have anticipated.
25:45
Loren: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. I'm glad you mentioned
25:47
that part too.
25:49
I want to talk a little bit more here about
25:50
fundraising, specifically. Fundraising, really. It
25:55
seems, I don't know, in the last 10, 15 years, at
25:57
least from my own training and experience, has
25:59
really leaned into donor centered fundraising, as
26:03
the term is called. And one of the things I again
26:06
appreciate about the book is you kind of question
26:07
like, oh, I don't know if this is such a great
26:10
model for us to consider in church. And um, I'm
26:13
glad you point that out because I know I've talked
26:15
about it with other pastors who I'm friends with,
26:17
and we're like, well, this feels a little bit
26:20
sideways from, you know, talk more about, uh, why
26:25
you see that as potentially a problematic model
26:28
and what other things we might consider in church.
26:31
Yeah.
26:31
Sheryl Johnson: Thank you. I mean, I think at its core, I think
26:34
donor centered fundraising, I think it's about
26:36
trying to, um, yeah. Trying to include voices in
26:40
the, in programs, not seeing people only for their
26:42
money. I think that there, there are reasons why
26:44
this has emerged as a, uh, as a trendy approach.
26:47
But I would that one of the problems is that when
26:50
our donors have a huge sway over our ministries,
26:54
over what gets funded, a lot of times that's not
26:57
necessarily a decision of the whole community.
26:59
It's not necessarily. Sometimes we're put into
27:01
these really gray areas where it seems like a
27:03
donor is really passionate about, um, music, say,
27:07
but actually the wider community, um, is moving in
27:10
a different direction. Or maybe, maybe music is
27:12
too broad, but say organ music to choose one of
27:15
those lightning rods, you know, if they're really
27:16
passionate about that and they want to give, um,
27:19
you know, huge amount of money, maybe even a
27:21
legacy gift. So for, for decades to come, we're
27:24
going to have all of this money tied up in being
27:27
able to be used only for, for an organ program
27:31
when really, um, you know, perhaps the, the needs
27:33
of the community are different, they're divergent,
27:36
they're evolving. Maybe the people who have less
27:38
money, um, perhaps have, have different interests.
27:41
And so if we are um, prioritizing the voices of
27:44
donors too strongly, I think that. Yeah, it's also
27:46
so hard. You know, when you're kind of looking for
27:48
money, it's easy to just say, okay, well it's what
27:51
we need, but it could still be better than
27:53
nothing. And I think we really need to challenge
27:55
donors to say, you know, please give us an
27:57
unrestricted gift. You know, I, I'm glad to know
27:59
you, I'm glad to know you're passionate. But our,
28:01
the needs of our community are going to keep
28:03
evolving into the future and we don't want to be
28:06
um, tied to what we thought um, the future was
28:08
going to be at this particular moment in time. And
28:11
we need to um, you know, have flexibility to be
28:14
able to use funds in different ways.
28:17
Loren: Yeah, it reminds me, there's a Lutheran church
28:20
just down the street like a block from me or a
28:22
couple blocks from me. And somehow I found myself
28:27
in a, in a conversation meeting with some of them,
28:30
um, and the topic came up that they had at one
28:35
point had, I feel like a dozen or more kind of
28:37
like designated funds, which is not quite the
28:40
same, but certainly on track of that kind of
28:44
restricted fund accounting, which like you said,
28:49
can be, can be a lot I suppose, is a gentle way of
28:54
saying, mhm. What have you, how have you. What am
29:00
I trying to ask here? How have you, how have you
29:03
maybe yourself or advised leaders, pastors to kind
29:08
of handle when someone comes to them. It's like,
29:11
hey, you know, I've, I've, I'm willing to give
29:13
half a million dollars here, but it means like you
29:15
can only uh, preach on this tax for instance. I
29:19
mean that's an extreme example. But you, you
29:21
understand, right?
29:22
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, definitely, definitely. No, I think you're,
29:25
you're so right. It is, it is tricky and I think
29:27
it is really work of um, faithful discipleship
29:30
leadership to try to help people to um, you know,
29:33
to sort of honor the good intention behind that
29:35
gift. Maybe honor, if this is an honor, you know,
29:38
maybe it's a gift that they want to make in honor
29:39
of someone that they, they loved who has died. You
29:41
know, I think you definitely, I think there's a
29:43
pastor know, need to, to meet that person to um,
29:47
you know, honor, honor that intention. But then I
29:50
think to gently work with that person to say, is
29:53
there, you know, what's the broadest possible, you
29:55
know, um, constraints we could put on this fund?
29:58
Or, you know, could we do something that's still
29:59
maybe in the spirit, um, of that idea that you
30:03
had, but something that's going to be much more
30:05
flexible for us, um, into the future, especially
30:09
into an uncertain future. And so I think that.
30:11
That that's. And I think that's also just the work
30:13
of. Of um, of pastoral leadership. I think in. In
30:17
conservative churches sometimes there's really a
30:19
lot more, um, clarity about what the role and
30:23
purpose of churches. And sometimes in our more
30:24
mainline or progressive churches, people start to
30:27
think, well, I don't actually know what we're
30:29
trying to do here exactly, but I know. I know the
30:31
building that. I know the building that seems
30:33
really concrete and tangible in my mind. And then
30:35
to say to people, well, you know, actually our.
30:38
Our call here is not to preserve this particular
30:41
building, um, know, program forever, but our call
30:46
is to, um, you know, be responsive to the gospel
30:49
in every time and place. And that has evolved
30:52
certainly, um, for thousands of years and it's
30:54
going to continue to evolve. So I think it's. It's
30:56
really kind of deep work for folks to help them to
30:59
um. And help ourselves to know that, um. That
31:01
things are going to keep changing and that um, you
31:05
know, and you're not always going to do it
31:07
perfectly. Sometimes people are going to say, no,
31:08
no, no, it's got to still have, you know, some.
31:10
Some m. Kind of strings attached. But I think m.
31:13
As much as we can, maybe loosen them up. So. Oh,
31:15
this is only for organ, you know, programming. Um,
31:18
maybe it's more for broader. For the arts. You
31:21
know, maybe you can move people in as far as you
31:23
can to a more expansive, um, Expansive guidance.
31:28
Loren: I mean, if anything. Right. It's just going to
31:30
make it more work for you or your board or
31:33
governing or, you know, body down the road. Have
31:37
to. Have to constantly like, oh, are we. Can we
31:41
use these funds? Or you know, it's just, uh. I
31:44
can. I can imagine being quite a headache down the
31:46
road.
31:47
Sheryl Johnson: Totally.
31:48
Loren: You did hint at the building topic, which I do
31:51
want to explore here in a moment, but I feel like,
31:54
you know, is there anything else we could. We
31:58
could say. You could say about fundraising or
32:03
generosity within the church that we haven't
32:05
talked about already that would. You'd want to
32:07
say? Because I feel like this is such an important
32:09
topic that doesn't get enough conversation.
32:12
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, I think it. It's A great topic. And I think
32:15
that, um, I think one of the things I would just
32:17
add too, is, is not to be afraid of talking about
32:20
money. I think that sometimes we just come at this
32:23
topic and assume that people don't want to talk
32:26
about money, that people, um, don't want to know,
32:30
um, you know, the inner workings of church life.
32:32
And I really don't think that's. That's true for
32:34
the most part. I think a lot of people, um, think
32:36
a lot about their personal finances all the time.
32:38
Money is a topic that's really front and center on
32:41
a lot of people's. Um. I think that the more we
32:44
can empower people to share, um, their stresses
32:47
and their worries and their realities. You know, I
32:50
share in the book that, you know, I know a lot
32:53
about people's health conditions as a pastor, but
32:55
I know very little, um, about their financial
32:58
realities, um, because I think there is all of
33:01
this secrecy and the shame for talking about it.
33:03
So I do think that, um, you know, empowering
33:06
people to be able to, um, share what's going on
33:08
for themselves personally, and then when it comes
33:10
to the church, I mean, I think that there's a lot
33:12
of, um, people who just have no idea how the
33:15
church is funded. You know, they think that, oh,
33:17
you know, the. The Catholic Church just has tons
33:20
of money and you're like, we're Protestant. That
33:22
doesn't have anything to do with us. But I think
33:23
people just don't know, or they assume, oh,
33:26
there's, you know, public grants that cover these
33:28
kind of things. Or, you know, there's just so many
33:30
misconceptions. And so I think that knowledge is
33:33
power. I think a way to invite people into the
33:36
fullness of. Of a church's life, um, fullness of,
33:41
uh, their own discipleship, is to just, you know,
33:43
share. Share where comes from, where it's going,
33:46
what the. You know, what the ideas and hopes and
33:49
visions are. Because I think that's the other
33:50
thing where donors sometimes, you know, when they
33:52
hear about, oh, this is what, you know, the thing
33:54
that you're really wanting to do in the next five
33:56
years, you know, I could help out in some way. So
33:58
I think that the more we sort of share and invite,
34:01
equip and empower, um, through, you know, not only
34:04
sort of direct donations, but other ways that
34:06
people can be part of, uh, maybe sharing their
34:09
expertise in grant writing, for instance, can be a
34:11
way to bring all sorts of new, New, uh, voices and
34:14
new hands into the work of church.
34:17
Loren: Right, right. Yeah.
34:18
Thanks for sharing that um, you know, you worked
34:22
in or you've worked, right, As I understand in
34:24
both the states and in Canada. Like you mentioned
34:27
different cultures and values. Like do you think
34:29
that's part of it is just like white American
34:32
culture? Like, I don't know, is it the same way in
34:34
the States or excuse me, in Canada? Like what has
34:37
your experience been around, around culture and
34:39
money? Like.
34:41
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, it's a good question. I do think that there
34:43
are a lot of nuances even within kind of Euro
34:47
American, Euro Canadian communities. But I do
34:50
think, um, yeah, I do think kind of knowing the
34:53
particularities, um, of your community is so
34:56
helpful, wherever that may be and wherever you may
34:58
be rooted. And I do think that, you know, in some
35:01
contexts maybe there's a lot more, um, you know,
35:03
for instance in the Bay Area there's a lot of
35:06
emphasis on startup culture and on. And I think
35:09
that really kind of creates creeps into um, to
35:11
church life in some ways, if in some ways good.
35:14
Um, in terms of wanting to try new things and
35:16
other ways sometimes a little bit problematic when
35:18
we're like, okay, well let's give you, you know, a
35:20
seed grant for this for one year and if, you know,
35:22
see if you can become self sustaining or you know,
35:25
I think there can be this. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
35:28
There can be um, some need for hesitancy. But I
35:31
think, yeah, ah, knowing, yeah, knowing your
35:33
context is, is always, um, good advice.
35:37
Loren: Good.
35:38
Okay, I gotta ask this question too. I thought
35:40
this was interesting. You talk about the
35:43
importance of examining how our buildings do or
35:45
don't fit our mission and values. So feel free to
35:50
speak to that. And I also, you know, one of the
35:52
things maybe I'll find the quote here is you talk
35:55
about the. Where's the quote about kind of how uh,
35:59
buildings or the importance of public buildings,
36:02
at least semi public buildings is they're
36:04
essentially open to all who pass by. Whereas if
36:07
we're just kind of doing home church, it can kind
36:09
of get, you know, it homogeneous. You say
36:15
demographically homogeneous. Talk more about. I
36:17
gave you, gave you a lot here, but feel free to,
36:19
to go with what.
36:20
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. I think. Yeah.
36:23
Buildings are so tricky. I think that um, often
36:26
they are a focus because they are a huge part of
36:29
our budget. And I really think that it's easy to
36:32
be very pro building or very anti building, um,
36:35
without being nuanced. So I think we need to be
36:37
nuanced. We need to look around and say, you know,
36:40
does our community have tons of church buildings
36:43
around or faith community buildings you know, are
36:45
there ways that if we were to close, um, our
36:48
building that we could potentially, you know,
36:51
share a space with another community? Um, is, you
36:53
know, what would be the impact, you know, what,
36:55
who are our renter groups? How would they be
36:57
impacted if we were to do something differently
36:59
with our building? Um, you know, if a building
37:01
closes houses is, you know, one way to do is just
37:04
put it on the open market. Another way is to
37:07
really see if it could be redeveloped into, um, a
37:10
community space, if some of our renters might, um,
37:12
be up for taking it over in some way. So I think
37:16
that, you know, even if our building has really
37:18
become a burden, um, we don't want to necessarily
37:21
just divest ourselves of it and then, you know,
37:24
forget about it. I think that we do want to be,
37:26
um, careful about thinking about, you know, what's
37:28
going to be the impact, um, on us, on our
37:31
ministry, on our, um, on, on the people who rely
37:35
on our space. And yeah, and I do think it is kind
37:37
of trendy right now to say, okay, you know, we're
37:38
just going to become a home church or maybe we'll
37:41
just rent space. Um, you know, I've rent space in
37:44
a school, um, or something like that once a week.
37:47
And I think that sometimes, you know, that can be
37:49
really, be a good, good decision. It can really,
37:52
um, you know, especially say your church was
37:54
physically inaccessible, you didn't have an
37:55
elevator, and all of a sudden you're meeting in a
37:57
space that is accessible and that's, that's
37:59
wonderful. But in other cases, I would also
38:02
caution you to say, you know, what about the
38:04
people, you know, who drop for gift cards, um, off
38:08
the street during the week? Are they still going
38:10
to be able to, um, to find you if you're just in a
38:13
rented space or if you're just meeting in
38:15
someone's home, say, you know, and not to say
38:17
that, um, that that necessarily means that you
38:19
can't ever leave your building. But I think to
38:21
really think about what would be the ripple
38:23
effects of you staying or going, um, what are the
38:27
climate impacts of your building, um, you know,
38:29
who's. Whose land, whose indigenous land, what is
38:32
the racial history of your community, you know,
38:34
who are you, who do you have ethical obl, um, in
38:38
terms of, uh, the space and the building that you
38:42
have, and how do you kind of include that in your
38:44
equation of thinking through what the future
38:46
means?
38:48
Loren: Well, I like this term building nuanced. I think
38:52
that's a good way of saying it. And I think if
38:54
anything, we could summarize from this too,
38:56
because when you saying that, I'm just hearing
38:59
lots of time, and I think that's the biggest thing
39:01
I see is folks don't. They're not taking the time
39:04
to do the work. And by time they're forced to have
39:07
these conversations. It's almost too late. So I
39:10
imagine you would affirm this too, right? It's
39:12
just taking the time to have these conversations.
39:15
Sheryl Johnson: Definitely. Yeah. I think that often we leave
39:17
these conversations until the very last minute,
39:19
and then we're sort of forced into certain ways of
39:22
being versus, um. I think it's really important
39:24
before there is any sort of decision at hand to be
39:28
talking about this. Um, also always building
39:30
partnerships, you know, looking at what other
39:32
faith communities are nearby. How can we work
39:35
collaboratively? What other organizations exist? I
39:38
think always, um, developing those relationships,
39:40
um, before there's any crisis. I think that it's
39:43
sort of, you know, part of capitalism and white
39:44
supremacy that tells us we got to be, you know,
39:46
just, um, asking for help is like a last ditch,
39:49
um, effort versus what if we, um, start to work
39:52
more collaboratively before there's a crisis? And
39:55
then, um, you know, then we have those partners
39:57
that we can rely on, that we can lean on, on, um,
40:00
in those times where we might come into having to
40:03
make a difficult decision, say, about our
40:04
building.
40:06
Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been a good
40:08
conversation. The book is Serving Money, Serving
40:11
God. Excuse me, Aligning Radical Justice,
40:14
Christian Practice and Church Life. Um, let's take
40:18
a quick break and we'll come back with some
40:19
closing questions.
40:23
All right, we're back with Reverend Dr. Cheryl
40:26
Johnson. And Cheryl, as I'm looking at your book
40:28
here, it's really throwing me off because, like,
40:30
the subtitle is above the title.
40:34
Sheryl Johnson: Right. I did not design the COVID.
40:39
Loren: Oh, boy. Okay, closing questions. You're welcome
40:41
to take these as seriously or not as you'd like
40:43
to, but if you're pope for a day, what does that
40:46
day look like for you?
40:48
Sheryl Johnson: Hmm. Well, I mean, first of all, I do want to just
40:51
name that, you know, I'm not Catholic, and I don't
40:53
want to by any means suggest that I understand or
40:57
that I, um, that that would be appropriate at all.
41:00
But I would say that, you know, to take that, ah,
41:02
question, um, in a different way. I would say that
41:06
the work of Pope Francis, I mean he, he was
41:08
incredible. I think that he did a lot of really
41:10
good work, um, especially around some of these
41:13
questions of economic justice. So I think if I
41:16
were to, um, be Pope, I think I would really want
41:19
to just extend that work. I think the Catholic
41:21
Church is a huge property owner, uh, one of the
41:23
biggest property owners, um, in some communities.
41:26
And I think there's a lot of potential for
41:28
returning, decolonizing some of those spaces and
41:32
for really um. Yeah. Thinking more creatively
41:36
about how to serve communities, um, through some
41:38
of that property. So it would be a lot to do in
41:40
one day. But I think that's some of what I might
41:43
try if I could.
41:45
Loren: No, it's great. Very ambitious day.
41:49
Okay. A theologian or historical Christian figure
41:51
you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
41:54
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, well, I'm definitely. When I saw that, I
41:56
really was thinking more about um, bringing back
41:58
to life. And I think that um, that person is prob.
42:02
Not often thought of as a theologian. But I do
42:05
think that the work of um, Martin Luther King Jr.
42:07
Whose life was of course tragically cut short. I
42:10
think his work around, um, moving into work
42:14
related to um, cross racial economic solidarity,
42:17
um, at the end of his life and his work, I think
42:20
that that work um, really is so needed still
42:23
today. And I know that the Poor People's Campaign
42:26
and the work of William Barber and others is
42:28
really working to uplift that. But I do think that
42:31
um, his particular leaders, um, would be um,
42:35
incredible if, If I could uh, resurrect someone.
42:39
Loren: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to give a shout out to
42:41
William Barber, uh, same. We're in the same Denom
42:45
Christian Church, Disciples of Christ. So shout
42:46
out to uh, Dr. Reverend Reverend Dr. William
42:49
Barber. So thanks, uh, for mentioning him.
42:53
When we think about like our current time and
42:55
place, what do you think history will remember?
42:59
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean what I hope
43:01
history will remember is that this was a moment
43:04
of, of great turning. I hope that this will be a
43:07
moment when people will have, um, you know, when
43:11
things will have gotten really terrible on so many
43:13
levels. Um, be that um, you know, the war in Gaza,
43:17
be that climate change, be that so many of the
43:19
crises, political CRESES in the U.S. everything
43:21
that we're facing right now. I really hope that
43:24
this will be remembered as a moment, um, the sort
43:27
of the rock. The rock bottom in some ways, um, of
43:30
history and really a moment where people came
43:33
together to turn the world towards greater peace
43:37
and justice.
43:39
Loren: Yeah, those are my favorite kind of responses I
43:41
think, because you know, it really is. Presents.
43:44
This is, this is a moment of opportunity for
43:47
humanity.
43:48
Sheryl Johnson: Kairos M Time.
43:49
Loren: That's important. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What uh,
43:52
do you hope for the future of Christianity?
43:54
Sheryl Johnson: Yeah, I hope for the Future of Christianity, a lot
43:57
of things. I hope that it will be, um, a faith
44:00
that gets renewed, um, through a lot of
44:04
creativity, creativity through a lot of um, living
44:07
into our values in ways that um, really inspire
44:12
people. It's going to be a time of a lot of
44:13
experimentation where this community is taking
44:16
this path and this community is starting this
44:18
social enterprise and this community is um, you
44:21
know, going into a wild church model and so many
44:24
things. I think this is a really rich time that
44:26
Christianity can move away from being somewhat of
44:29
a monolith and hopefully towards something that's
44:32
going to be um, just part of, part of the
44:34
ecosystem of other, other faiths, part of the
44:36
ecosystem of all people who are working for peace
44:40
and goodness in the world that we can be kind of
44:43
right, size ourselves into uh, a really, um,
44:47
positive, good contributor to the ecosystem, um,
44:51
of the world and the ecosystem of faith.
44:54
Loren: Let me throw a wild card at you because it
44:57
resonates with someone I just talked to few days
45:01
ago, Michelle Van Loon, who comes from an
45:04
evangelical tradition. But her book is called
45:09
Downsizing Evangelicalism. And that's much of what
45:12
she talks about in her book is this idea of like,
45:14
we just have too much institutions and stuff. And
45:18
uh, I think this sort of relates to fundraising,
45:21
if, if you will. This idea of like sometimes the
45:25
best fundraising approach is to think about, about
45:28
what, what really needs to get funded. I mean, is
45:31
that, is that fair?
45:32
Sheryl Johnson: Totally. No, I think you're so right. I think that
45:34
often we have really gotten caught up in the sense
45:37
of, you know, power looks like having property. It
45:41
looks like, you know, we have this picture in our
45:43
mind of what it means to be powerful. And I think
45:45
that Jesus offers us a model and I think that
45:47
we're being called in this moment to a uh, to a
45:49
different way of operating that doesn't just look
45:51
for prestige, that doesn't look for power, but
45:54
instead looks for solidarity and looks for
45:57
opportunities, um, um, be conspirators, co
46:01
conspirators in the work, um, of building a better
46:04
world.
46:06
Loren: Yeah, I'm glad that came up. I'm m glad that came
46:08
up. Okay, where can folks connect with you? Uh,
46:11
get the book, all that stuff.
46:13
Sheryl Johnson: Great question. So, yeah, the book is available,
46:15
um, through Fortress Press, um, as well as um,
46:19
many other websites. So encourage you to take a
46:21
read. Um, I have a professional website that I
46:23
think will be linked to as well. Um, yeah, and
46:26
always happy to be in touch with folks. So please
46:28
do reach out. I'm always happy to have
46:30
conversations to help, um, to commiserate. Um,
46:33
whatever I can do to support you, um, in your work
46:36
and in your ministry. Um, I'm always happy to be
46:39
in touch.
46:40
Loren: Well, this is great. Thank you so much for your
46:42
time. I really appreciate the conversation. Hope
46:45
it's been helpful for our listeners. So we, uh,
46:47
always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
46:49
God's peace be with you.
46:51
Sheryl Johnson: Amen.
46:59
Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
47:01
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
47:04
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
47:06
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
47:09
future episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
47:12
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47:16
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