Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience _1276 - Ben Shapiro(M4A_128K)

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Joe Rogan Experience _1276 - Ben Shapiro(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, we're live. Ben Shapiro.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, how's it going, dude?
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Very good? How's it going with you? Man? It's going well.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: I love I love the new digs. So you haven't
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: been here since you've finished it over and I walked in.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: I thought to myself, I've been doing my business wrong.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, you got what three employees?
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's not that many folks working on this. Yeah.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: I mean so in my offices we have like eighty
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: and our offices are not nearly this cool. So I'm
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: going to go back to my office and fire everyone
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: and then have your folks come in at design, because
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's either a lot of people or I
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: could have cars in my office.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you wouldn't go down this route. You're you're
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: more of a conservative gentleman than myself. You're wearing a
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: suit jacket, you're your own boss. Nobody tells you how
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: to dress, and yet you dress like a grown up. Yeah.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I won't pretend that nobody tells me
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: how to dress. We have people who tell me how
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: to dress. We have people who do my hair.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: So you have all that stuff you have like fast Yeah.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because I used to. I mean if you look
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: at the old photos of me, I have like the
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: Hitler hair. I've got like the hair that's the only
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: thing about me. The Hilarian was my old hair, and
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: I've got that the hair that kind of comes down
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: over the forehead. And I still walk into the office
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: wearing basically an undershirt every day because I'm incredibly lazy
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: when it comes to that stuff.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: But we should have been able to.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the prerogative of being the boss.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe it'd be more relatable if you showed up wearing
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: like flip flops and T shirt.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: That kind of kills my brand, though, now does it?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Like, what is your brand exactly?
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: I thought it was being an asshole.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I think you're an asshole. Though, thank you, I appreciate it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: You're a very nice guy. You're just conservative.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: That's the dirty little secret. Though. Yeah, we're not supposed
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: to we're not supposed to talk about that.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: But this is one of the things that bothers me
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: so much about you being so misrepresented when I read
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: things about you. There was the article that we were
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: just talking about the alt right sage without the rage
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: they called you, and you're not even remotely al right.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: In fact, you were the leading target of anti Semitic
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: abuse for all of twenty sixteen, weren't you, according.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: To the Anti Defamation League, which is no ally of mine. Yeah,
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: I mean I'm not only am I not al right?
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: I've spent the last four years, like legitimately battling the
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: alt right, talking about how evil I think their ideology is,
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: how evil I think white supremacy is. I mean, first
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: of all, like people with the AMICA is typically not
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: the favorites of the alt right. And then beyond that,
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think their ideology is legitimately a devastatingly
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: awful twist on what Western civilization is supposed to be.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: What's amazing is a.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Review of my new book, And my new book has
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: several sections and they're dedicated to how terrible the alt
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: right is. And then the interview they did with me
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: doesn't talk about alt right stuff at all, but they
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: just assume I'm on the conservative right. That must mean
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: that I am all right, And it's like, no, you stupid.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: It's a problem with those labels. They're disingenuous. People are
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: labeling people in a very simple manner to try to
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: categorize them as the enemy and instead of just addressing
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: these points like I love watching your debates where you
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: do Q and as with college students and with people
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: in the audience because you can see you agree with
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you or disagree with you. You have well formulated idea.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: This isn't just some bullshit that you're spouting out. You've
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: thought these things through.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've been doing this for legitimately more than
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: half my life. I'm thirty five, and I started when
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: I was seventeen, and I started writing sydicated column at
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: that point. And when you're seventeen, you think a lot
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: of dumb stuff. And then you get older and you
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: educate yourself and you spend a lot of time reading
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: and a lot of time studying. Hopefully you have some
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: cojun arguments after twenty years of doing anything. I mean,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: but it's the demonization is pretty astonishing. Mean, we had
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: on Andrew Yang. He's the only Democratic candidate who has
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: agreed to go on the Sunday special that I do.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: We did a full hour on UBI. It was perfectly nice.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: It was perfectly coherent and conciliatory. And people will suggest
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: that everything I do is about destroying people on the
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: other side, because of all the Ben Shapiro destroys videos
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: There's there are certain groups of people where that's their stick.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: They're like they're goons, right, they just go after people
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: online for attention. Yes, this is a stick. This is
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: not you, And this is what bothers me so much.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: And I know that you've said some things in the past,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: like particularly about Arabs, and like when you were a
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: younger man, that you said I shouldn't have said that.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right, that's exactly right. Some of those
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: things were taken out of context, like that. One particular tweet,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: which is a bad tweet, was a tweet that was
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: part of a tweet threat in which I was specifically
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: contrasting Israel and the Kamas leadership and saying that the
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Israeli government likes to build and the Kamas leadership would
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: prefer that their citizens live in sewage and bomb things.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: But that was a bad tweet. Obviously.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: My entire history on Muslim relations is one like I
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: supported the ability of Illhnomer to wear a job on
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: the on the floor. I opposed President Trump's originally proposed
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Muslim ban. In the last three weeks I've had on
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: Majiev Noah's, I've had on Conta Ahmed, I had on
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: yesterday a reform Muslim like these are conversations that have
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: to be had. But to take this is one of
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: the things that bugs me so much. I've tweeted I
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: think one hundred and forty thousand times, I've written millions
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: of words.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you can.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: Find something I don't even remember having written that is bad.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: I have a running list, by the way, I try
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: to be honest out this. I'm one of the only
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: people I know who has I have a running list.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: It's called so Here's a giant list of all the
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: dumb stuff I've ever done right, And I actually go
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: through all this like you can look it up.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: This is not me saying this now.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: I mean you can go and look up all the
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: things that I think I've done wrong, and I'll apologize
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: for some and I'll say some were dumb, and I'll
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: say some I'm fine with and you're just taking out
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: of context. But I mean that I hope that's what
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: honest people try to do.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: But this is the problem. You're not dealing with honest people.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: When people try to categorize you as all right, or
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: they're trying to put you into this category of internet goon.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: They and they, they're quote tweet there's taking some little
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: tiny phrase that you said seven years ago and trying
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: to say this is you, this is you now. It's
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: so that's such a disingenuous thing to do.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: I hate it, and I hated it across the aisle
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: by the way, like I was a defender of James
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: gunn I thought James gun shouldn't have been fired from
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah, tweets about that, there were
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: just dumb jokes. That's exactly right. And even if somebody
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: tweeted something bad like ten years ago, bringing it up
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: now is not an attempt to actually make the public
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: space better. And you're not actually offended by that thing
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: the person tweeted ten years ago that you didn't notice
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: what it is that you want to get rid of
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: this person or hurt this person. So you're going to
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: bring up something from ten years ago, and then you're
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: going to try and club them into submission with it,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: because if you actually ask them their opinion about it,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: they might have a more nuanced view on what they said.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: Maybe they apologized and maybe they think I don't even
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: remember saying that. I mean I felt the same way.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: By the way, I try to be consistent, I really
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: do about this stuff. I've said the same thing about,
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: for example, Ralph Northam, the governor of Virginia, who is
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: excoriated for having this terrible racist photo on his yearbook
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: page back in medical school in nineteen eighty seven, and
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: people were saying, well, this is evidence he's racist. Now
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, no, that's evidence that he was doing
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: a racist thing. Then that's not evidence that he is racist.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Now you sort of have to look over the broad
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: course of his career, and he ended up doing what
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: everyone now does, which is you just don't apologize for anything.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: You just try to pass it off as in nothing.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: The public space is actually getting worse because let's say
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: that you did something bad in the past. There are
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: a few human responses too, I did something I don't
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: like in the past. Human response number one is you
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: know what, I apologize that was wrong. These days, that
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: gets your face step done. You say I apologize I
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: was wrong, it means well, why did you do it
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: in the first place, Because you're a bad person. Apologies
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: are not accepted and then number two is you brazen
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: it out, you do the trump You know, well, I
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: never did anything wrong ever, I've never I'm perfect right
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: and that, and then you get your defenders to come
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: and surround you, and then nothing ever gets cleansed or opportunity.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Number three is you do what Barack Obama did, which
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: is you come out preemptively and you try to remember
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: all the bad stuff you do and then you confess
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: it in public. So in dreams from my father, he says, right, well,
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: you know when I was back in high school, it
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: did a little blow, and everybody's like, oh, okay, so
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: you did cocaine when he was in high school.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: That's that's cool.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Whereas if it comes out during the campaign, then he's
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: owned right, then he's got then he's got a real problem.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: The problem is that right now, even if you preemptively
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: come out and say I did something wrong, like for example,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Liam Neeson talking about years ago when he had a
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: racist thought that he didn't act on when he had
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: a racist thought, this is now we're going to try
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: and ruin your career for something that you admit was bad,
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: that you did thirty years ago. We're going to try
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: and ruin you over that if you apologize for something
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: that you did thirty years ago, which you would have
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: preferred just got forgotten because it was embarrassing and stupid,
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: then we say you're bad, and so all you're left
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: with is like the most shameless people in the world
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: who are in the public space. Right, the incentive structure
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: is to be deeply shameless, to just say, yeah, man,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I own that and it was great when I said it,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: or I didn't say it at all, and you're just
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: full of it. I never said that stuff. Who you're
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: gonna believe your eyes are me and it makes it
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: makes for really bad politics.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Well, it's just the culture of going after people for
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: things and finding anything to categorize them as someone who's
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: a viable target. And this is what I've seen thrust
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: your way. It's like, there's nothing wrong with being conservative,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: there's something wrong with wanting everyone to think the way
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: you think. Though, this is the difference. What I like
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: that you do is you debate your points, you state
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: your positions, You have a philosophy. And what I don't
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: like is when people try to pretend that that philosophy
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: is some somehow hateful or somehow regressive or something like
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: you're that you condemn people for their thoughts. You just
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: you don't. This is what I'm not what I see
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: with you.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it, and I appreciate the accuracy because I
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: think that's true. I mean, I've come out against virtually
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: every Twitter band, including people who have personally targeted me.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: I've come out against that. I've come out against virtually
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: every Would.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: We talk about that, because what are your thoughts about
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: this idea of deplatforming? And you know, this is something
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: that we were just discussing before the podcast where the
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: CEO of YouTube and Karas Wishers, Yeah, from ree Code.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I think Karas Wisher they were talking about removing you
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: from YouTube, and I thought it was the CEO of YouTube.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: It was actually Caro who said I would if I could.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was pissed because her son apparently listens to.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: That's kind of funny if she's being funny saying I can't.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: But it was I thought it was the CEO of YouTube.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Now she was trying to much more.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: She was trying to do the same thing that they
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: do with you or with Dave Ruben or Jordan Peterson,
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: which is that anybody who is sort of heterodots because
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: in that group, I think I'm the only registered Republican.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Anybody who's heterodox is now being meaning just thinks differently
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: from kind of the down the line Democratic Party platform.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: You're not like down the line with Hillary, Like Sam
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Harris is a Democrat. Sam Harris is heterodox because he
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: disagrees that Islam is by necessity a religion of peace,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: for example, right, Or he thinks that we have to
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: look at actual statistics in order to make evidentiary based
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: points about discrimination and disparity, and this makes him an
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: enemy of people like Ezra Client at box dot com. Right,
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: this sort of stuff. They then say that you are
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: a feeder for white supremacy.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: They can't actually get you on what you say, so
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: it turns into well, you know, some members of your
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: audience do things that.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Are really bad.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, dude, I have like millions of people
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: who are members of my audience. I have five million
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Facebook followers, I have two million on Twitter, and you're
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: way bigger than I am.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I assume that some of those people are going to
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: be crazy.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I would assume. Yeah. The idea that
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: you're responded well, this is what YouTube try to do.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: You know that the comment thing where YouTube was going
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: to try to make people responsible for the comments and
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: their videos. Which what is a normal Jamie, like a
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: normal video that we get? How many comments does it get?
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Like ten thousand? That's like an average one? How the
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: fuck am I supposed to have some dude with this
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: itchy trigger finger standing by in front of a keyboard
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: just waiting for something offensive to pop up. And this
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: was in response to something that happened with them where
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: there was pedophiles who were watching videos of children doing
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: things and they were commenting stuff in the you know,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: like the children's gymnastics and stuff like that. They're commenting
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and like communicating with each other through the comments, and
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: it was sort of discovered that there was this connection
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: that they were doing this in many many videos, and
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: YouTube rightly panicked. They're like, oh shit, we have to
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: stop this. So the response, I guess was we just
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: have to make people responsible for their comments. Someone said, oh, yeah,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: good idea. You didn't think through it at all, right,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: certain people that can't do that.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: It's totally insane, and it's insane in virtually every respect,
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: and it's funny how it's only applied kind of by
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: the media on one side of the aisle. So to
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: take an example, the Congression baseball shooting happens a couple
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: of years ago. Guy happens to be a Bernie fan.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: Is that Bernie Sanders's fault? No, that is not Bernie
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: Sanders's fat I went away.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Literally people stopped talking about.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: And that was shooting of legislators, like elected people. One
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: nearly died, and that kind of went away. We didn't
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: talk about, you know, Bernie's responsibility. But there's a shooting
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: in christ Church and it's Jordan Peterson's fault, and Jordan
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: Peterson has no relationship with the shooter whatsoever.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: It's my fault.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: I have no relationship with the shooter and denounce everything
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: that that piece of crap stands for. And suddenly is
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: it's really ugly and it's gonna it will come home
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: to roost. I mean, here's what's going to happen is
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Facebook and YouTube are going to fall prey to their
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: own standards, because if their standard is that you're responsible
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: for your followers, or I'm responsible for my followers, or
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Jordan or anybody else is responsible for all the people
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: who view their stuff. Okay, then why isn't Facebook responsible
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: for all the people posting on its platform? If they
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: are right, if Facebook becomes responsible for all the people
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: posting on its platform, they'll be bankrupt in a week.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: They've got a problem, they really do, because they have
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: to decide whether they are a platform or whether they
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: are a do gooder publication. I run a publication Daily Wire.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: It's openly conservative. We make no bones about that, and
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: we are responsible for the content that appears on our platform.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: And if we say something defammatory, we will be sued.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: If we say something that is false, then we will
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: be sued. Presumably, if you post something false on Facebook,
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: Facebook doesn't get sued. But now Facebook has deemed itself
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: the morality police, and they'll ban people they don't like,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: and they'll decide what editorially ought to be elevated and
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: what ought not to be elevated. Does that sound more
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: like the phone company to you or does that sound
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: more like my website where I decide what gets published
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: and what doesn't. Because Facebook's case for exemption from these
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: laws is, well, we're like the phone company. Right when
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: you're on the phone with somebody, if that person says
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: something criminal at and T isn't responsible for the person
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: saying something criminal or terrible. It's just the phone company.
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: But Facebook isn't doing that. Facebook is jumping into the
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: middle of conversations and then saying, well, well, we don't
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: really like this conversation, so we're just gonna kind of
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: shut it down, not because of legal threat, but because
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: we just don't like it.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: So are they actually doing that? Or say, if you
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: put a post up on Facebook and they don't like
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: the way you worded things or describe things, where they
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: actually shut down your post, what will they do.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: So they've done it in the past to some conservative public.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: It's pretty controversial because they're not transparent at all. I
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: can tell you that at the beginning of twenty eighteen,
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: we lost about thirty five percent of our traffic because
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Facebook started cracking down on mostly conservative sites. They said
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: that it was kind of new sites generally, but that's
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: not what the statistics showed. They're doing it more often
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: with things that we all sort of agree are bad. Right,
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: we all agree white supremacy is bad, white nationalism is bad.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Now they say they're going to censor that stuff. But
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: here's where I'm uncomfortable. I think that that stuff is
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: awful and evil, and those people are the ones are
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: They're the reason I have personal security. But once you
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: get into the business of Facebook gets to decide which
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: speech is good and which speech is bad.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: They're an editor. They're an editor.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: Even if I agree with their assessment of what stuff
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: is good and what is bad, I am not comfortable
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: with them in the driver's seat there. And if they're
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: going to be in the driver's seat, then they should
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: be held liable for all the stuff that's on their platform.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, why is it the Twitter same thing?
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Why is it that Lewis Farrakhan is still on that
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: platform but Alex Jones is not. Like I don't like
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Alex Jones's material, or I've been very very critical of
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: Alex Jones. I didn't think he should get banned from
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Twitter unless he actually violated the law, unless he was
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: responsible for a violent threat, unless he was defamatory or something.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: They're definitely going down this road of being the moral arbitrators.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: They're the ones who get to decide what the conversations are,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: and that's an insane responsibility. The responsibility of getting to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: dictate what should and should not be discussed, and to
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: have it to be a handful full of people and
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: have these people almost almost exclusively live in the Pacific,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: you know, in North of Center exactly that whole tech community.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's all tech liberals who really if you're
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: around those people, they live in this really strange, uber
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: wealthy bubble of super genius spectrum people who are coders
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: and super capitalists and people that are raising money all
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: over the place and designing technology. And they have an
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: ideology and it's not necessarily a bad one, just being
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: honest and upfront about what it is. It's it's incredibly progressive,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: which is very unusual for big business. Right, for big
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: business to be just openly, transparently progressive and pushing social justice,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: it's very unusual.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that there is a sort of misunderstanding
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: of when we say what big business is, what big
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: business is. So I think that there's a wide variety
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: of owners of businesses and how they think about politics. Obviously,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: Billgates is a progressive guy. Warn Buffet's progressive guy.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: They are now progressive his whole life. Well, it's ruthless
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: with Microsoft.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: Well, so I think that there are a lot of
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: people listen. I think that the vast majority. I think
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg is ruthless with progressive I think Jack Dorsey
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: is as ruthless as the next guy when it comes
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: to profit.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's still got to be answerable to a shareholders.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: So I think I.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: Think a lot of the progressivism is sort of a
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: way to excuse your own in your own involvement in
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: the capitalist market.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: When Facebook took off, don't be evil, but that was
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: their thing, don't they decided to remove that?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Google? Right? Oh yeah, I say Facebook, I'm sorry Google. Yeah,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: when Google did that, I met Google. It's funny when
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: you think something but you're saying when they did that,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: it's like, why would you ever take off? Don't be evil? Like?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Keep that?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: But here's my thing, here's my thing.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: I think that if our tech companies were honest, they
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: should take that stuff off. Like stop pretending you're do gooding.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: You're not do gooding.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: You're providing a platform, and maybe the platform is the good.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Right in a capitalist economy, the product that you provide
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: is the good. I don't need additional good to come
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: from your product, right, If you want to provide me
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: a solid morning drink. Right, I don't need your politics
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: along with that. I just need the drink. Well, if
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I want a social media company, I don't give two
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: about what Mark Zuckerberg thinks about politics. Dude hasn't studied it.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: I don't care at all what Jack Dorsey, who vacations
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: in Malaysia and gets bitten by a million mosquitos while meditating,
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: has to say about the nature of life, Like, what
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: why do I care about Jack Dorsey's political view? He
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: has provided me a good. The good is this basic
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: chat room where I'm consuming news. How about that would
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: just be enough? But it's not enough for a lot
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: of these folks. It's the kind of wholly from Silicon Valley.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: We're going to pretend that we're here to do good,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: and it's not enough just to acknowledge that maybe the
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: thing that you provided is the good. Like Bill Gates
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: has done more good with Microsoft and than he has
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: done with any of his charities. He's given a lot
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: of money to charity, but Microsoft has provided legitimately hundreds
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: of thousands of jobs and created enormously productive lines of
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: business and made enormous profit for a lot of people.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: A lot of people have stock in Microsoft as a
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: basic factual thing. He has done more good doing that
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: than giving tens of millions of dollars to various outside causes.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: So it feels like a lot of the progressivism in
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: corporate halls in Silicon Valley is bifurcated mentally. It's like
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: people have like dolphins. It's one side of the brain
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: on at a time. Here's my here's my capitalist side
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: where I go out and make money and profit, and
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: then here's my other side, where I show people what
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: a great person I am by proclaiming that I'm for
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders while parking my money offshore to make sure
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: that they're it's shielded from the from the taxman.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a good assessment. What I'm saying is
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: that the don't be evil thing. Like one of the
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: things that I thought was, what if that was like
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: a legal decision, me being cynecal, that they were pulled
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: into some sort of an office and said, if we
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: say don't be evil and you take someone off the platform,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: you're accusing them of evils. I mean we should slow
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: that down. Maybe.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, again, this self assessment of you are the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: moral police. I find really troubling and it's so funny.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm the supposed moralist right right, I'm the religious guy,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I'm the orthodox Jew.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: I talk about social standards and how people should behave
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: in their personal life, But when it comes to government
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: and when it comes to me imposing my views on you,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: I am way less of a top down tyrant than
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: any of the people in Silicon Valley. I am not
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: here to tell you that you are not allowed to
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: be on a platform because we disagree. It's one thing
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: if you're threatening violence, which is an actual violation of law.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: But this crap where people like me because I believe
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: in a social fabric built on certain Judeo Christian values.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: But I'm not forcing you to be part of that,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: and I don't think the government should compel you to
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: be a part of that. Or I'm the tyrant. But
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: the person who sits at the top of Twitter or Facebook,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: who is saying that they get to police what you see,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: and they're going to nudge you in the right direction,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: nudge you in the right direction without your consent, without
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: them even telling them what you're doing, right, They're just
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: they're going to push you a little bit because they
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: know better than you and they can sort of massage
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: you into better views if we control your channels of information.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: This is something the Obama administration was very fond of.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: There's a scholar named Cass Sunstein as a legal scholar,
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: and he wrote a book called Nudge. He was very famous.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: It was used as sort of a handbook during the
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Obama administration. And the idea is, well, if we can
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: just use non form means to sort of nudge people
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: in a particular direction without them even knowing they're being nudged,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: then shouldn't we do that? And I think, no, you shouldn't.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: You shouldn't because transparency is the only way I can
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: tell what kind of bullshit you're trying to sell me.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Well, not just that you're closing down even conversation, as
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: soon as you're trying to silence this other voice. If
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you believe one thing and another person believes a different thing,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: you should probably talk about it. And the way that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I know for sure there's something wrong with your argument
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: is if what you're trying to do is you're sneakily
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: trying to silence these voices. And again, as long as
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: we're not talking about threats of violence. And as long
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: as we're not talking about harassment or doxing, right, we're
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: just talking about conversation. You're just talking about people with
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: differing points of view. If you want to silence differing
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: points of view, I have to wonder about your intent.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: I have to wonder about whether you're going to do
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: this conversation with good faith. I have to wonder whether
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: you've really objectively assessed whether or not you your argument
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: does hold up against scrutiny, because this is also part
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: of the problem, and when you're in an echo chamber,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: you often don't formulate these arguments very well, Like when
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: you confront people about certain biased beliefs that they have
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and you you have an opposing belief if they're part
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: of a bubble, like sometimes they might not have even
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: ever considered some of the things you have to say.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And I've seen that with some of your videos.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it does happen all the time, and
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: with sophisticated people. I've spent my entire life, literally my
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: entire life in areas where everyone disagrees with me.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: I grew up in LA I went to Harvard Law
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: School for three years. I was in Cambridge, where everyone
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: disagreed with me, and then I came back to La
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: So I have never spent more than a week at
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: a time in a red state.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Of your conservative values moved in one way or another,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: they should shall.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: My personal values probably haven't shifted very much, but my
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: political values have shifted. Libertarian m I mean, so I
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: used to be a proponent of criminalization in marijuana.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: I'm no longer.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: I've been in favor of for you, a couple of things.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: One was just a general sense of the government sucks
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: at everything, and the more I see the government try
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: to down on things, the more prevalent it becomes. I mean,
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: people are dealing pot on my sixth grade, seventh grade
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: playground in public school, so.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Obviously, like yeah, exactly.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: And then just a general perception not only the government
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: sucks at everything, but that you got to own your
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: own actions. And also examining more of the evidence about
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: the impact of pot on people's lives, and you know,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: again you ruining your own life through use of drugs.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: And then there's drugs that legitimately ruin other people's lives.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: There are drugs that remove your ability to even reason
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: or think. I think there are only two reasons to
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: criminalize drugs in any fashion. One is if there are
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: drugs like for example, PCP, that legitimately make you violent,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: and then you are going out and committing acts of
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: violence against people, then there's a case.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Or if you're talking about.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: A drug where it legitimately robs you of your capacity
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: to reason, if it were heroin, if you're able to
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: actually crack down on it successfully. But even there, I'm
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: not sure that the proper government solution is criminalization, because
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: we've criminalized it and it's still incredibly prevalent.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: So I agree with you. I agree with you on that,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: and I agree with you in terms of drugs being
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: extremely detrimental. And the other part is that there's comparable
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: drugs that are legal, and comparable drugs meaning not even
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: really comparable drugs that are far more devastating, like alcohol,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Like you could just go to any grocery store and
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: buy a jug whiskey and kill yourself with it. Yeah,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: it's not difficult.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: And the books already that prevent externalities. If you drive high,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: it's the same as driving drawn, So I'm not sure
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: that you need additional laws to do that. And also,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm not opposed to zoning laws, like I
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: don't think a pot chop should open up right next
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: to my house. Right, they're residential zoning.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: That's fine.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: It's same with liquor stores though, right, I don't want.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: A liquor store right next to my house.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: This is correct, yeah, right, So I've become libertarian in
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: some ways on that sort of stuff. The same thing
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: is true, by the way, when it comes to the
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: issue of same sex marriage. So on a personal moral level,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: I'm opposed to same sex marriage. I'm an Orthodox Jew,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: and I believe that a man and a woman were
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: made for each other. When it comes to government involvement,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's anybody's business. I think a lot
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: of things. I think adultery is bad too. I don't
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: think the government ought to be involved in adultery. I'm
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: so strict. I don't think primarital sex is a good thing. Right,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: I've been very vocal about this. I was a virgin
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: until I was married. My wife was virgin until she
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: was married. I think that's a good thing. So I
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: think the government has anything to do with any of
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: those things.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: No, I don't.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's any of the government's business. It's
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: consensual activity. There are no externalities. So what exactly is
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: the government getting involved in? And when the government gets
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: involved in stuff, then there are externalities.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: Once the government starts to cram down its vision on people,
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: then you start to get unintended externalities. So, for example,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: with the legalization, my view on marriage is that the
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: government should get completely out of the business. I don't
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: think the government should be involved in straight marriage, don't
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: think it should be involved in gay marriage. I think
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: the government should be out. And the reason that I
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: say that is because as a religious person, right, who
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: believes in traditional marriage. I have two marriage certificates. I
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: have the one from the state that I don't give
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: two craps about. It's buried somewhere in my garage. And
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: I have my religious mariage certificate, which meant, among other things,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: that I got to shoop my wife, Right, I mean like,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: this was the one that mattered to me. And I
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: think that's true for most religious people. The religious ceremony
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: matters a lot more than the state saying a thing.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: And the state isn't incentivizing marriage. People aren'tetting married becuse
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: they're like, yeah, I need the tax break. So that's
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: a bunch of nonsense. And once the government decides what
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: version of marriage it wants to push, that then comes
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: into conflict with other values. So, for example, once the
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: state of California decides that same sex marriage is on
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: legal par with heterosexual marriage, now I'm worried about the
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: externality of I have a religious day school, or I
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: have my synagogue. My synagogue is a religious institution. It
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: doesn't approve of same sex marriage. Now is the government
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: going to come in and tell my synagogue how it
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: ought to act with regard to same sex marriage. I
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: don't think that's the government's business.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: So how about this.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: How about everybody gets to do basically what they want,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: associate with whom they want, and it's none of the
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: government's business. This seems like a pretty good happy medium.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you talked about the two things that
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about that I'm sure
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: we disagree with, one of them being marijuana and the
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: other one being gay people marrying each other. So let's
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: start with the marijuana one. Do you think marijuana ruins
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: people's lives? Is that one of your contentions?
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I think that it can, and I think in the.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Same way you ever have any experience with marijuana.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: No, I'm just talking about the I'm just talking about
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: the statistical overuse of marijuana among teenagers does have detrimental
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: brain effects that have some long term after effects.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: It's pretty proven, and that's one of the things that
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I really I'm glad you said that because I wanted
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: to cover that, but you were in the middle of
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: a ramp when we were joking around about six and
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: seventh graders selling pot. Don't smoke pot when you're young.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: You really should. It's not good for the development of
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: your brain. The same thing with drinking. You know, I
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: didn't smoke a lot of pot when I was a kid.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: I did it a handful of times until I was
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: thirty years old. But I did drink a bunch of
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: times when I was young and in high school. And
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: it's terrible for brain development, right, especially before you're twenty
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: five and your funnel cortex hasn't even fully formed. Your
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: fronnel lobe is like this, it's a developing thing. And
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: there was an article recently that I posted from BBC
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: that was saying that you probably shouldn't be considered an
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: adult until you're thirty.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Right, they're saying brain development doesn't even stop until you're
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: twenty six or twenty. This is why when when people
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: are saying, let's let's lower the voting age sixteen, I'm like,
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: what the.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: What the fuck are you talking about? In the world?
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: When I was sixteen, I was a chimp, you know,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: I mean reallyast I was a chimp in a high school. Now.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: The problem that I have with many people's perceptions on
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: marijuana is that it's based on ignorance, meaning not no
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: personal experience with you know, and.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Listen, I'll admit I have no personal You don't want
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: to so I know you don't. I'm not speaking.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Probably should get high, That's what I'm trying to say.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: Man, I've seen the effects on stock prices. When people
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: get high in the studio, they jump up.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Man, they jump down for a little when a bunch
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: of chickens jump off the vote, then they come right
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: back up. The marijuana thing is, in my opinion, it's
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: another one of those things where people have this this
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: categorized box that they like to put marijuana users in,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: like this is the category lazy, stoner, stupid, delusional.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: It's widespread for that. I mean there are people I
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: know who are doctors.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Who yes, well, there's the jiu jitsu community is a
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: big one. There's a giant percentage of the jiu jitsu
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: community that does jiu jitsu high. They have competition. It's
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: not man, I'm telling you because it's not what people
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: think it is. If you've never smoked marijuana, this is
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: going to be a very difficult thing to grasp. But
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: marijuana enhances jiu jitsu because it eliminates the rest of
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: the world when you're rolling, which rolling is like say,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: if you and Jamie were gonna have a sparring match,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: that would be rolling, like you'd slap hands and then
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: you go and you're trying to choke him, and he's
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: trying to get you in an arm bar and you're
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: going after it. When you do that on marijuana, it's
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: like you don't think of anything else other than those movements,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: and it becomes like this very intense meditation in violence,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Like it's not violent in terms of most of the
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: time you don't really even get hurt. He's like you
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: get to the point, like one of the beautiful things
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: about jiu jitsu is you can grab a hold of
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: someone and choke them to the point where they're going
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: to go to sleep, and you would kill them if
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: you kept going. And they tap around your friends again,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: and everybody's cool, and you try to do it to me,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: and I try to do it to you, and you
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: really can do it reasonably hard without people getting hurt.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: And it happens every day all throughout the world. A
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: lot of these people are high, and they're doing this
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: jiu jitsu practice in this almost like trends.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: It's a state if you can function when you're using marijuana.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I don't care, but.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: You can, This is what I'm saying. And perceptions are off.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: So I mean, I would assume there's a small subset
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: of the population for whom that's not true, right, who
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: are over using marijuana.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, and that's probably the majority in fact.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Okay, so then you know. But again the same way
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: with food, I agree. So I don't think there's anything
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: we disagree about here because I'm not talking about criminalizing
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: marijuana use. I think that we should honestly discuss the
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: evidence that for a subset of the population, there is
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: some evidence that marijuana is addicting, but it's a subset.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: It's not everybody who's on marijuana. The vast majority of
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: people on marijuana are not addicted to marijuana, I think,
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: in the same way the alcohol. I mean, it's sure
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: of alcohol as well.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: There's people that are going to be addicted to almost anything.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: And I think there's absolutely people that are addicted to sugar.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: This for sure, people that are addicted to nicotine and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: alcohol and all these things that we let people have.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: The material addictiveness of marijuana is not comparable to opioids though,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: for example.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: It's not even comparable to alcohol or nicotine. It seems
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: to be very rare when people become physically addicted to it,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: extremely rare. And what's common, though, is abuse, and it's
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: common in everything that human beings consume. Its abuse is common,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: as we said with food, certainly common with alcohol, it's
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: certainly common with pills.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: And this is why, you know, I really believe that
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: the way to solve some of these problems is a
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: social fabric problem. Like it's a parenting problem, it's a
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: social fabric problem. It's a personal choice problem. Yes, that's
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: why virtually every solution I suggest it is so funny,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm constantly Conservatives like me who are libertarian
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: leaning are constantly accused of being non compassionate. No, it's
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: just our compassionate solutions don't involve the use of government. Yeah,
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: it's like, we're going to encourage people to make better
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: decisions with their lives, and if you choose not to
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: do that, it's a free country.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, coming from a religious background, you have
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: this community that reinforces this kind of behavior and thought,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: and I think that's one of the major, really one
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of the best benefits of religion is that moral fabric
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and that community, the sense of community. Even silly ones
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: like Mormons, you know, they're the nicest folks, right, they
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: believe something that is fucking patently insane. If you go
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: and read the Joseph Smith text from eighteen twenty when
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: he was fourteen years old, the shit that he wrote.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: I tried not to get into doctrinal insanity. I wear
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: a funny hat all day.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that was going to get to that.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: But you know, with that said, I mean, Alexis to
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: tokefl talks about this. You know, early on in the
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: American Republic. The idea is that what makes America very
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: different is the idea you don't need a big government
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: when you do have a supportive social fabric where people
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: feel like they're at least oriented toward a common goal.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: It's one of the problems that I think we have
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: in the country right now. I'm not sure people are
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: oriented toward even a common sense of conversation. M I mean,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: it's you don't have to agree on everything in order
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: to have a common sense of the important values that
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: unify the country or should it?
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: And I always Sam Harris is sort of my bet
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: ino ark here because he's obviously a militant atheist. I'm
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: inequally an equally strong believer. And yet when it comes
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: to the things that we would like to see happen
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: in the country, not on a government policy level, but
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: on a let's have a conversation level and discuss on
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: evidence level, we're on the same page. There's certain core
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: assumptions you have to make in order for that to happen.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: My argument about America and the West is that those
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: core assumptions are built on Judeo Christian foundations. Sam's core
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: argument seems to be that they're built on evolutionary biology.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: We differ a little bit there.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I don't want to let this marijuana think go just yet.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I wanted to bring up
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: to you was this idea that if you're a religious person,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: don't you think that there's certain things that maybe God
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: put here for us to consume, to change your perspective,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: to allow you to reach new levels of consciousness. Don't
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: you think it's entirely possible that some of these things
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: that are here, and I know you haven't experienced, but
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: they might literally have been put there by God. And
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: there's some evidence to say that a lot of the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: texts from the Bible that in particular, there was a
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: I think it was the University of Tel Aviv somewhere
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: in Jerusalem or these scholars were they were trying to
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: decipher what it meant when Moses encountered the burning bush,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: and they believe that it may have been the acacia tree,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: which is very rich and dimethyl trip to me, which
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: is a psychedelic substance that actually that the brain produces,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: and it's very common in plants. And they think that
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: this might have been when he met God and God
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: was a burning bush, that this might have been some
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: crude translation of them being involved in some sort of
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a psychedelic experience. Now it sounds outlandish unless you've had
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: that psychedelic experience, and when you have, you very well
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: could think that you were in a conversation with God.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: This is on earth, and this is something that may
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: very well have been lost information, or this may very
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: well have been rituals that people participated in to bring
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: them closer together and to reinforce that sense of community
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: that you do get from a church, and you do
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: get from a group of people that share more beliefs
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and values. And there's a there's real good discussion that
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of these experiences that became these religious doctrines
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: came from psychedelic experiences. Now, as someone who's never experienced
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: that before, I know this is probably a very strange
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: thing to try to even wrap your head around it.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: It is entirely alien until you experience it. But it
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: might very well be religious.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: I mean I've heard that from other people who have
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: been who have used those kinds of I mean say,
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: I'm actually made this argument to me too about the
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: use of psychedelics, and I mean.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe God again apples well.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, so this argument, I will say, I'm not super
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: fond of the argument that God made something and therefore
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: it's ours to use or I mean, like I keep kosher.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Right, like God made pigs, I don't need them.
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: So I am not a huge fan of the argument
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: that because something is here, or because an urge is natural,
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: therefore we ought to imbibe, or therefore we ought to
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: participate in a particular activity. You know, one of the
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: things that I'm very big on, I'm a rationalist when
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: it comes to religion, as much as you can be
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: a rationalist with regard to religion, to the extent that
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: I think that it's up to us to use our
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: reasonable faculties to determine the proper use of things. So,
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: which is why you shouldn't over use drugs, even if
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: you're going to use.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Drugs, for this is part of the problem of making
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: things illegal. You make things illegal, then you really don't
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: know what it is, or how it affects the body,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: or what's the right dose or the wrong dose, and
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: then people get involved in these terrible situations where they're
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: taking things, they're just guessing them.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's truth to that, but it's also true
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: that on a social level, I'm not talking about legal
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: because we totally agree on the legal level. On the
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: social level, there's a couple of things that are true
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: of for example, the Orthodoxyish community, low rates of addiction
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: because people have that social fabric, they don't feel the necessity. Also,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: you know, as you say, substance use in moderation can
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: actually be quite a good thing. So low rates of
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: alcoholism in the Jewish community. And part of that is
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: the fact that you are given kiddish wine from the
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: time you're a kid, right, I mean.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: You actually are distigmatized.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's destigmatized. And the idea is that in its
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: proper context, this could be a good thing. So I'll
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: admit I don't know enough about the proper context of
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: marijuana to know when it would be a quote unquote
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: good thing.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: And so I can and also be a good thing.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: This is what I'm talking also, and.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: Also i'm you know, I don't The truth is, I
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: don't enjoy drinking, right, I'm not. I'm not a drinker.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: I don't enjoy I like reality. I like living in reality,
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: and I like experiencing it totally sober. So I've never
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: really felt the urge to do any of that stuff.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: I hear the pitch. I hear the pitch, but I've
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: never really felt the interior desire need to.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Did you completely understand that? I think that what we're
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: dealing with, though, is perceptions that have been molded by
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: laws that were shaped by tyrants. That's what I think.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, again, that's totally possible and plausible.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's historically accurate. I mean when it comes
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to prohibition, prohibition with alcohol didn't work. Prohibition with drugs
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: is just making the cartels bigger, and it's causing men.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: On a practical level.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Whether you like drugs or don't like drugs, government interventionism
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: is generally a giant fail.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I think our perceptions of what is good for you
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: and is bad for you is also based on laws
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: that the government created ignorantly, the Sweeping Psychedelic Act of
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy, which made virtually everything psychedelic that they could.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: They missed a few things, a few things slipped through
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the crack, but all of the trip to means, or
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: most of them, the psilocybin LSD, all that stuff was
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: made completely illegal by people really didn't even know what
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: it was. And a lot of that is why we
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: base our ideas of what's good or bad for you.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: It's based on what is legal and what other people
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: have done with it.
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: On this area, not only complete experiential ignorance, but complete
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: evidence orry ignorance. So I haven't examined the evidence, so
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: I really don't have strong opinions on any of this.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Ste I think it's one of the bridges that we
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: all could use between conservative thought and liberal thought, particularly
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: for people that are dying. It's one of the things
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: that JOHNS Hopkins found, and there's been other studies done,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: and there's been therapy done on people that are dying
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: of terminal diseases, and they give them psilocybmen and when
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: they give them these mushroom trips, they have these beautiful
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: experiences where they completely accept death. And it's almost a
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: universal reaction to it. That like the amount of people
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: who still experience a positive benefit months and months after
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the experience while they're dying that they say, this was
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: an incredibly moving and powerful moment in my life that
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: allowed me to accept the fact that my time here
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: is done.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, listen, if that's something that works for people,
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: and that's what it's designed to do, then.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: It's designed well, even designed by God like it literally.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Might that's fine.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's also the generalized religious counter
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: argument that there are no short cuts to no shortcuts
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: to happiness.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: So let's pose a thought ament cut.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Well, this is the question, right, I mean, like, let's
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: say that I could guarantee you that tomorrow you're going
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: to be a happier person. All you have to do
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: is take this regimen of drugs that you're going to
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: take every day, and it's going to make you a
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: happier person, a more well rounded person, but it's going
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: to permanently change your brain chemistry. Is that something that
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: you think is good or is it something you think
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: is bad? Because from a religious perspective, there's an argument
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: to be made that these are this is work you
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: need to do on yourself without outside aid, if possible.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: If there's cases where you can't, then you can't. But yeah,
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: you know, turns an interesting thought experiment.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Ternskin had a line about that. He said that there
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: was a joke about there was a monk and he
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: met Buddha because Buddha came to town and he said, Buddha,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: he wanted to impress them. He said I practiced a
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: city of levitation, and I have done this for ten
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: years and now I can walk on water and the
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: boots says, but the ferries only a nickel. The idea,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: it's like, what do you fucking waste your time? Like
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: you can aid the progression rapidly with psychedelic drugs. And
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: this is something that you know, do you know about
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: MAPS and their work with m d m A and
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: soldiers that have had PTSD, it's it's phenomenal. By giving
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: these soldiers MDMA therapy, meaning they give them MDMA, which
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: is essentially what people think of as ecstasy the street.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: They give them pure MDMA and then they assist them
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: with they actually have a psychologist sit with them, a
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: therapist and they go over all these details of these
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: traumatic events and they come to peace with everything. And
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: they've had profound benefits for soldiers and for we uh,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: some combat journalists, different people that have been over there
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and have experienced the horrors of war and just general PTSD,
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: maybe for people who have experienced violence attacks, that is
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: shown to be one of the very best things we've
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: ever discovered for helping people get past.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Here's to me and I'm thinking about this on the fly,
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: because this is stuff I don't think about very much.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: But there's a complex moral equation to the extent that
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: if you're talking about somebody who has PTSD, somebody has
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: a condition and the only way to help that condition
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: is to use these drugs. I've never had a problem
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: with any of that stuff, right, I mean, my grandfather
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: was schizophrenic and maybe bipolar, maybe schizophrenic. The diagnosed is
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: not exactly clear. They prescribed him lithium and made him
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: a lot better. Would he have been better off struggling
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: with the schizophrenic of course not. It's much better that
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: he should have the lithium and then be able to
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: live in his rational mind. So when there's a problem,
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: using drugs to get past it and work with it.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Is a good thing.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: You do run the risk of the sort of brave
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: new world situation where you have a group of people
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: who have a certain level of aerosats happiness that is
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: not driven by a point of view but more by
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: just these chemicals in their body.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: The chemicals affect your point of view.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: Well, that is one hundred percent, Troy. But are you
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: you've all Harari talks about maybe this is the future right.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: He talks about the idea that maybe the future is
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: we just drug ourselves until we're happy, basically, or that
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: happiness is the drugs, because if you're a scientific materialist,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: that's what it is. Happiness is just a bunch of
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: chemicals flowing throughout your body. So if you can bring
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: them in without self change. But I do wonder whether
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: that robs people of a certain level of purpose, that
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: the struggle is part of being human.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: I think we're changing what it is to be human
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: just by carrying around phones and.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Just I mean, that's true, but I think that that's
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: again one of the things that I think makes being
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: a human worthwhile is the idea that you are struggling,
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: like I think the struggle is actually meaningful, and I
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: think that's why religions tend to set prophylactic rules, sometimes
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: for good and sometimes for ill. So for example, I'm
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: addicted to my phone. I mean, there's just no question, right,
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: It's in my hand all the time, but from Friday
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: night to Saturday night it's off. I can't look at it.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: I'm forbidden from looking at it. And this breaks the
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: cycle at least for one day a week, and that's
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: a good thing that makes me better as a human being,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: because a limit I set for myself and then a
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: limit that I abide by. And if you believe in
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: self mastery, where's the happy medium between self mastery and
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: I need a little bit of aid? And I think
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: that there is a happy medium there. But I'm not
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: sure that you know drugs are the answer to I
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: don't think you're suggesting drugs are.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: No, I'm not suggesting that. And I think there's also
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: a problem with the word drugs. That everything is under
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: that blanket, and that blanket can be entirely negative or
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: extremely positive right now. But that's there's a problem. I
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: use it too. I mean, it's not accusing you, but
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: that term it's a problem. It's a problem term because
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: what these are are substances that are psychoactive, and some
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: of them can be extremely beneficial, and some of them
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: have short term experiences that last with long term results.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: And I don't think that there's enough knowledge that. I
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: don't think the people that are negative against it experienced
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: enough of it or have looked at it in an objective,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: rational way, because I think it's something that could be
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: here to aid perspective, to give people a chance to
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: think outside of their normal conditioned way of thinking that
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: might have been established by their community, or by their church,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: or by their neighborhood, whatever. It is. Sometimes a little
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: bit of a break, a little bit of a mental
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: break from what you're experiencing in the vibration that you
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: exist on almost every day. To separate from that and
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: to get a look at it from the outside, sometimes
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: it allows you to have a renewed perspective that can
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: enhance your life greatly, as.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: Long as when people re engage, their re engaging at
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: the level of coming thing.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: And this is what we share. You and I are
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: both disciplined people, and it's one of the things I
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: really respect about you. You're a very hard worker, You're
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: always on the ball, You're very disciplined. And I know
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: that a lot of conservative people admire that and admire
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: that in folks, and they think that people who are
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: liberal are not disciplined. They think that they're lazy. It
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: falls into this like weak, beta male sort of category
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: of people that are progressive and liberal, and I think
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: that's I think that's a misunderstanding. I think you guys,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: you and I both agree that the struggle is very important.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: But I'd struggle physically so that I don't have to
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: struggle mentally. I struggle physically so that I can have
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: a better way of looking at things with less stress.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: So we have this shared belief that things should be
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: a struggle. I force my struggle on myself so that
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I can have a better perspective. And this is something
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: that you and I differ on, Like I think you
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: exercise right, Yes, how often you do it?
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: I try to do every day.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes a big deal. Yeah, it's a huge
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: it's a huge deal. Yeah, I mean, I think we
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: both understand that struggle is a it's an important part
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: of understanding yourself. If you do not push yourself, if
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: you do not struggle, you're not going to really get
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: who you are, what your boundaries. And if you're self indulgent,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: if every day you're stuffing things in your face that
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: you want to, Like, it's good to have a rule
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: like hey, for this next month, you can't eat this,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: or you can't do that, or I want you to
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: start fasting sixteen hours a day. Is it that hard?
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Just eat for eight hours a day and fast for
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: sixteen No, but that just doing something like that and
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: setting these guidelines for yourself and putting yourself into a
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: disciplined state could be extremely beneficial. Like Jocko Willinkoway says,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: discipline equals freedom is a great formula and it's real.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Well and again, it is the basis of a lot
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: of religion. I mean a lot of religion is very
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: practice based. It's one of the reasons I like Judaism
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: as opposed to other religion. It's a very practice based religion.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: You know, sometimes you can take that too far in
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: one direction, which is I say you need to balance
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: reason with dictates that are meant to make you better.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: But that goes all the way back to Aristotle. I
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: mean Aristotle talks about how you have to practice to
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: be good, or you have to practice to be virtuous.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: What makes you a virtuous person is acting repeatedly in
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: accordance with right reason, and that is setting rules for
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: you yourself right that is not violating every rule. And
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: I think when we talk about on the conservative side,
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: you know, folks on the left being lazy, I don't
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: mean that in terms of work. I mean Mark Zuckerberg
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: is a hard worker. I assume I think Jack Dorsey
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: when he's not getting bitten by mosquito. It seems like
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: a hard worker. But you know, most most of the people,
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: most people love jobs, are hard workers. I don't think
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: it's about that. I think it's it's it's a certain
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: perspective on the necessity of rules and the mindset that
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: if I don't know what a rule is for, I'm
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: going to remove it.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: So G. K.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: Chesterton has this this very famous kind of contrast that
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: he draws between people who tend to be right wing
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: politically and people who tend to be left wing politically.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: He says, people who tend to be left wing politically,
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: you're walking through a you're walking through the woods, and
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: you come across a fence. You don't know why the
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: fence is there, and you say, I don't know why
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: this fence is here.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: I'm removing it.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: And the person who's right wing walks through the forest
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: and sees the fence and says, I have no idea
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: why the fence is here. I'm going to go find
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: out why the fence is here, and then maybe I'll
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: remove it. And that's the kind of burky and conservative
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: attitude toward rules, the attitude that this rule put here
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: for a reason. Now, maybe the rule sucks, maybe the
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: rule has to go, but let's try and figure out
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: what was at the root of the rule before we
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: just wipe out all the fences and then try to
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: rebuild from the ground up all these new fences. And
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: that's especially true in a civilization that's the most prosperous
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: and free civilization ever created. I mean, if the system
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: really sucked, that would be one thing. But I think
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: people are kind of ungrateful about the fact that we
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: live in the best possible time, in the best possible place,
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: And then that's the reality. And everybody who's so negative
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: about living in America, it's like, Okay, in nineteen hundred,
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: one in ten American children died in the first year
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: of life. In eighteen fifty, the average life expectancy in
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: Europe was under forty So what are you talking about?
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: What are you talking about? Like, our biggest problems today
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: really for the vast majority of people is that we
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: are too fat, or that we are we don't have
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: a job, but we still have somebody who's basically making
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: sure we have food. Like starvation is not a serious
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: problem in the United States. There's a problem of poverty,
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: but there's not a problem of widespread starvation. In fact,
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: poverty tends to align with obesity. This is a pretty
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: unbelievably great society, so maybe you ought to look back
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: at the roots of that society before we start willy
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: nilly tearing up all of the moral boundaries.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: I think you and I agree that this is the
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: greatest time ever to be alive. I think what these
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: other folks are saying is that we can do better,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: and I think we all agree with that. But to
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: classify this time as being a terrible time is I
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: think wholly inaccurate.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: By the way, I hate it right and left right,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: and this is one of the reasons.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: It's one of the reasons why I think there's a
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: certain point where the Trumpian populist right meets the Bernie
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: Sanders' populist left, and that is them walking around saying
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: how much things suck, and it's like, no, no, that's
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: just wrong.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: It's an amazing time. It's amazing time for communication too.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: It's an amazing time for people to kind of understand other
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: people's perspectives and points of view, which is one of
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: the reasons why deplatforming and silencing of conservatives even though
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not conservative. Bothers the shit out of me. Yeah,
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: I just think it's a non harmonious action in a
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: time that I think could lead to people having much
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: more open and much more balanced communication.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, this should be the time when we are
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: having more conversations and more fun with each other, and
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: where we are feeling more entrepreneurial. We have a better
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: social safety net than ever. So one of the statistics
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: that really bothers me is that the level of American
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: mobility has declined rapidly in the United States. So the
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: number of people who are leaving their home states to
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: go somewhere else to work a job, for example.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Is at decades low.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: Why it's easier to get anywhere now there's seven million
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: unfilled jobs. I keep hearing from you know, folks who
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: I know personally, like people like Tucker Carlson, that you know,
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: you grew up in this small town and the town
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: is dying, the industry left. Well you have the government
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: somehow owes it to you that you get to grow
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: up in this town and stay in that town even
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: if all the industry left. And I just think to myself,
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: by whom who gave you this guarantee that you get
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: to stay there. And I know, listen, I'm I'm a
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: lucky guy. I grew up in a two parent household.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: We grew up wealthy, but we were middle middle class.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Like I grew up in a small house in Burbank
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: with two bedrooms and I had three sisters. So as
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: me and my three sisters in one bedroom and one
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: bathroom for six people. That's not poor, that's middle class.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: That's a great life. And I understand some people don't
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: have that life. But one thing that is guaranteed to
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: you is the opportunity for adventure in this country, So
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: go and move, Like, why are we inculcating a feeling
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: of victimhood in a society where if you make the
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: right decisions you will do well? I mean not, you
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: might do well. If you make basic, basic right choices,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: you will finish better than you started in American society.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: I mean we're talking like the most basic choices, like
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: finish high school and don't have a baby out of wedlock,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: and get a job, like you do those three things,
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: and the Brookings Institute says that you will not be
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: in permanent poverty in the United States, Like that's amazing.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: That was not true for the vast majority of human history.
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: For the vast majority of human history, you did all
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: of those things. There wasn't high school, but you did
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: all the other things, and then you lived like a
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: surf on a farm until you died at age thirty
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: seven of diphtheria or something.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: So it's just.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: The lack of optimism in a society where it should
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: be running rampant is kind of astonishing to me.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Well, it's perspective, right, I mean, rich kids grow up
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: with this perspective of constantly being rich, and people grow
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: up with this perspective of how they view the United
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: States is this negative thing, or that they don't know
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: how to change their life. They don't know how to
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: take action because they haven't had anyone around them that
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: it's done it. And that's part of the problem with
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: the small town mentalities is that you kind of inherit
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: the vibe of the people that are around you, and
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: if they're ignorant, or if they're shallow minded, or if
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: they're stuck in this one town and they're never going
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: to leave, and you get caught in that vibe. You
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: can one day wake up and you're thirty two and
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: you've never done anything.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is what Lady Vance talks about in
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: Hillbilly Elogy, right, People who are in these small towns
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: and they've basically been told that they have two choices.
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: They can go on welfare or they can leave. Yeah,
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: and it's like, okay, final going welfare. Everybody around me
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: is why not? There's nothing morally deficient about going on welfare.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: It's actually one of the bigger problems I have with
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: the welfare state generally is that it disconnects the person
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: receiving the aid from the person giving the aid. One
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: that in our religious community. To take an example, there's
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: a time a few years back where a guy came
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: to me ID bought some art from him. He's an
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: artist and really does good work. He came to me
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: and he said, my family doesn't have enough money to
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: make the rent this month. Can you offer me in
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: advance on art that you'll buy somewhere down the road.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: And of course I'm like sure, So I signed him
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: a check and he understood that. Five years later he
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: came back to me and he said, you know, you
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: still haven't bought that piece of art. I owe you
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: a piece of art because he knew who gave him
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: the money, and so he was willing to understand that
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: that was an act of charity and he wanted to
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: make sure that was paid back. He said this in
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: Cinderella Man right with Russell Crowe, the moment where he
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: makes his money. He walks back into the welfare office
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: and he rolls out a wad like that, feeling that
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: the government isn't just a giant cash machine that exists
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: to pay you money, but that that money actually comes
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: from somewhere. Either it's coming from the future because we're
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: gonna have to pay back the debt, or it's coming
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: from somebody's tax money, and that we all owe something
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: to each other. And by the same token, what I
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: owe to my neighbors is that if they're in trouble,
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: then it is my obligation as a good person to
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: try and help them out on a personal level. Right,
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: And the charity and religious communities is extremely high. That's
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: the social fabric that I'm talking about. Without that sort
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: of dutiful sense to one another, you can't have rights,
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: because if you just have rights then and no duties,
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: then there will be no one to take care of
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: each other. It's why while I'm libertarian when it comes
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: to government, I'm very conservative when it comes to the
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: need to build a social fabric in communities and have
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: people with working families and communities of working families.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I really think that that's one of the best
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: things that comes out of religion, is when you have
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: a tight knit community like yours, and you do have
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: that sense of charity where you really are a community
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: of people that care for each other and look out
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: for each other. The problem is, of course, doing that
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: large scale, and then the problem is doing it in
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: some sort of a non denominational way where people they
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: don't have to have the exact same beliefs, but they
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: still share these core values of community and taking care
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: of each other. I mean, that's what people really benefit
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: from when they've done studies with people, when they show happiness,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: and what is happiness correlated with, It's almost always correlated
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: with friends and loved ones and family, right, It's the
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: most important thing can happen.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: And when it comes to diversity, you know, there's the
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: slogan that diversity is our strength. Well, there's a Robert
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Putnam is a sociologist over at Harvard. He wrote an
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: entire book about the social fabric called Bowling Alone, Who's
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: kind of the pioneer and the idea of social capital.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: And what he said is that he went in with
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: the writing this book with the idea that diversity is
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: our strength. And then he did some research and what
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: he found is that ethnic diversity only correlates with two things.
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: These are his words, increased TV watching and increased protest marches.
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: That's all unless unless it is within the boundaries of
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: a common goal. So if you walk into a church
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: very diverse ethnically, everybody's got the same general goal, which
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: is we're worshiping God in one particular way, and we
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: believe in a certain core set of values. And now
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: diversity is great. Your experience has come to bury. You're
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: all aiming in the same direction. He gives the example
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: of the army. You see a bunch of people who
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: go in diverse group of people, diverse races, different backgrounds,
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: And when you talk to those guys while they're serving
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: or after they leave, they don't give a crap about
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: the diverse backgrounds of the people they were serving with.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: They're all aiming their guns in the same direction. Well,
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: in the United states, we have to be aiming our
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: guns in the same direction or we can't really have
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: a functioning social fabric at all. I'm perfectly willing to
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: give charity to people who I don't know, who still
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: believe like I do that America is a fantastic country
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: rooted in immutably good principles. But that starts to break
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: down when I'm being asked to give charity, just on
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: a personal level, to somebody who believes that America is
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: fundamentally evil and needs to be torn out at its
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: roots and replaced with something better, because now we're not
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: aiming in the same direction. So on a human level,
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I care about you. But on a social level, if
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: I have a choice between somebody who basically agrees with
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: me about fundamental values and somebody who is diametrically opposed,
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: I'm going to give my money to the person who
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: basically agrees with me on those fundamental values. And again,
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: I don't think those fundamental values have to be religious.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: I don't think you have to be a God believer
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: to receive charity from me, or I don't think I
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: should have to be an atheist receive charity from you.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: But I do think that you do have to take
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: into consideration a few things, and now we're on the
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: same page. Personal responsibility, the idea that you do live
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: in a free country. Just historically and relatively speaking, this
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: is a free country, which means decision making is on you.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: So man up a little bit that the decisions that
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: you make. We should all have sympathy for people who
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: have had worse lives and worse experiences. But in the end,
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: if you are capable, if you are not fundamentally disabled
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: in some way, that you need to make a plan
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: for your own life, and then you need to do that,
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: Like are you more willing to give charity to somebody
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: who has a plan for how to get themselves out
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: of the.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: Whole of course or of course yeah, But that.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: Relies on that person feeling an obligation to do that.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: But I also think that what you're talking about with
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: charity within the community is so much more there's so
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: much more connection than charity from the government. When you're
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: talking about welfare. The problem is that there's this dissolving
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: of responsibility because it's just a check that comes in
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: that you feel like, well, this is a rich country,
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: I owed this. Anyway you know, and when I was
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: a kid, we were on welfare and we used food stamps,
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: and I remember being very ashamed of it and feeling
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: really weird that we were that poor that we needed
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: help from the government. But my parents worked their way
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: out of it. They were young, they had a kid.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: My guess is that but I guess that the social
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: stigma probably has something to do with that, meaning that
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you didn't. They didn't want to be on welfare.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: They didn't want to be on food stamps. Contrast your
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: story with Adam Corollas, right. Adam talks all the time
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: about how his parents were also on food stamps and
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: welfare and they just didn't give a shit, right, they
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: were just and he always resented that. He thought that
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: was bad. Yeah, he said, like, you could work, why
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: aren't you? And that gave him the impetus to get
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: up and do what what Adam has done. So you
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: know that that kind of it's not pick yourself up
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: by the bootstrap, because helping hands are good, but it
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: is I if I were capable of picking myself up
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: by my bootstraps, would I do so? And if the
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: answer is yes, then we're all on the same team.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Well, there's this is a real problem too, and that
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: some people just get a horrible hand dealt to them.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: For sure, at birth, there were parents that really are
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: doing a terrible job raising them. They're fucking them up
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: every step of the way around a bunch of people
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: that are criminals. Everybody's fucking up. There's no examples of
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: anybody that's doing well. I mean, it's one of the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: unique things about the Internet today is that a kid
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: that's in that environment can get a hold of maybe
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: something that you've said or something that you know someone
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: else has said, and start reading books and start taking
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: in information that gives them a different perspective and fuel
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: that perspective with more motivational stuff and more information and education.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: And sometimes kids just like you were saying with Adam Carolla,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: they grow up with these parents that are just not ambitious.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: At also they become very ambitious and they work very
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: hard to not be like them. I mean, sometimes it's
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: good to see that example, but most of the time
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: it's just fucking hard for them to reprogram their heads.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: Well, for sure, it's hard to do that, and it's
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: also hard. I really think that there's a lot of
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: focus in the country right now on raising awareness, which
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: is fine, you know, raising awareness of our history and
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: all the bad things that we've done.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Good.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: I mean people should know about all the good things
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: and all the bad things, right, it's history is history.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: But this incessant focus on the idea that people's lives
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: are getting better by suggesting that they're perennial victims in
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: the United States, I just don't I don't understand how that's.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: A good thing.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, as a historically a member of a historically
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: persecuted group. If I had grown up and my parents
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: had said to me, no matter what you do, you
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: will be put under the thumb of the dominant society,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: that's a pretty horrible message to tell to a kid.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: And I think that's true for politicians again, on both
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: sides of the aisle. I think you get it from
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: from President Trump when it comes to some rural areas
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: where it's like, well, it's the Mexicans and the Chinese
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: coming in to steal your jobs and you're under the
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: thumb of people who are trying to destroy you. And
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: on the other side of the aisle, people who say, well,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: you're in the inner city and therefore the cops are
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: racist against you and want to destroy you, and everybody's
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: out to get you, and it's like, well how about this,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: how about like again, the single best thing you can
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: do for yourself is make basic decisions that are entirely
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: within your control. Okay, unless you are unless you are raped,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: God forbid. Single motherhood is a choice that you get
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: to make about your life. This is a choice you
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: get to make about your life. Finishing high school unless
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: you are legitimate disabled in some way. I mean, especially
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: in LAUSD, where you basically have to be able to
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: read at third grade level to finish high school. You know,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: just just like these are these are decisions, personal decision making,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: if you want to. I've never seen somebody's life get
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: better by complaining about reality. I've seen a lot of
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: people's lives get better by acknowledging that reality is what
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: it is and then making personal decisions to make their
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: lives better. And that's considered non compassionate, but it seems
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: to me the essence of compassion sometimes is saying, at
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: least make the baseline decision. If you make the baseline
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: decisions and then you fail, we can talk about what happened.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's non compassionate. I think it's pragmatic,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: and I think you're right. But I also think that
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: there's some people that are They're in situations that require
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: something external to assist them. They're they're the way their
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: life has been set up. And this is what I
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: think when people think about compassion and people pulling themselves
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: up by their bootstraps. If you have a real if
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: you really have an honest and accurate assessment of extreme
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: power already in terrible neighborhoods, it's not as simple as
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: do something good to better your life. Part of it
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: is you got to fucking stay alive. Part of it
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: is you're surrounded by people who either have committed crimes
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: or will commit crimes. You mean, one out of every
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: four people you run into might be a criminal in
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: the worst neighborhood in the country.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: This is for sure, But I think we have to
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: This is where we recognize what government is good at.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: Government is good at two things, cutting other people, cutting
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: checks from other people's money.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: They're great at it.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: And they'll see they're right on top of those parking tickets,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: by the way, to make sure that they get on
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: it and they're amazing at it. So seizing your money
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: and paying money they're very good at.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: And pointing a gun at people.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: These are the two things that government was built to do.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: Was collect taxes and payout money and then point guns
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: at people. Right.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: This is what government does.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: So which of those two things would you apply in
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: a situation where there is just a complete lack of
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: social capital Because cutting a check isn't going to do
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: it alone. Where's that check go to the parents who
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: are not doing not able to protect their kids. It's
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: one thing if you're enabling the parents to move out
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: of that community or something. But that's why I say
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: you have to attach If you're going to do the
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: government welfare thing, you got to attach it to a plan.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: It can't just be here's a check, enjoy your life,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: because what is the plan.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think one of those terrible communities. You live
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: in an apartment complex.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: So I mean, here's the reality. I think that the plan,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: very often when it comes to a crime ridden area,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: is the other side of what the government does, which
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: is you need more cops in that area. I think
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: that the great lie that these communities that are crime ridden.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about white Appalachia and I'm talking about yes,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: you black inner cities. These these communities do not need
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: fewer cops. They need more cops because the precondition to
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: investment in those communities and increased tax dollars in those
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: communities and increase social capital in those communities is people
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: not getting shot every five seconds.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's why the worst thing that can happen
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: to law abiding minorities is for the cops to abandon
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: areas where crime is high. It just doesn't make any sense.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: And that's not just me saying that. Shane Levy's a
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: reporter at the La Times, very much on the left,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: has said the same thing. While abiding people, I want
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: crime rates to go down, like conditions have to change
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: in a community, for conditions to change in the community.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Did you ever see The Wild the Whites, The Wild
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia. No, it was it
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: Johnny Knoxville. Did he produce that documentary? I think he did, right, dude.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: It's about this family that lives in West Virginia that
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: is just a bunch of psychotic criminals, These crazy white
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: people that the kids drinking mountain doing doing backflips on
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: the bed and they're all on pills. It's bananas, and
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: it gives you this insight like, if you are in
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: this community, if you are in this family, and this
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: is obviously a very extreme family, but there's many more
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: of them out there that have not been documented. If
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: you are in that community, good fucking luck getting out right,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: good luck. The money that you get other than welfare
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: is from selling pills. You know, everybody's on these pills,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: so you're all whacked out. You don't know what the
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: fuck is going on. Half the day you're on opiates.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is a banana's environs. And there's a
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: lot of people like that in this country for sure,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: in poor Latino communities and poor White communities and poor
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Black communities. The idea that these people are just going
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: to pull themselves up by the bootstraps is crazy. I
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: just think they don't have a plan, and I think
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: if we really want to help them, there's got to
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: be some way where you can give these people the
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: opportunity to step out of that pattern. Whatever that community centers,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: outreach programs, whatever it is, I don't know what it is.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, the truth is the truth. Is that historically speaking,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: it was people actually going to church. Yes, I mean,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: and they're maybe.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of good it turns out church going person.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: But I absolutely recognize that there's a lot of good
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: involved in having that framework.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: Right, and that I'm not sure that that's I don't
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: think you can create sort of a fake social fabric
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: with just a government welfare system like it just it
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: hasn't worked. I mean, disability exists. I don't been increasing
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: every year. It's it's not this is a question I
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: asked Andrew Yang. Actually, so our episode comes out on Sunday.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: And obviously Andrew is a big fan of UBI universal
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: Basic income, and I'm not averse to the idea of
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: UBI in a future where legitimately fifty percent of the
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: population can't work because they've all been automated out of
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: existence in all of this, but there's one section in
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: his book where Andrew talks about how if we cut
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: people a check for UBI, then they will spend their
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: extra time creating art and engaging in hobbies.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: That they like.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: And I just thought to myself, I mean, I said
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: it to him, like people are on disability and I
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: ain't what they're doing and if you're on disability, the
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: people you're talking about who are suffering, they're not out
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: there writing poetry, right. I mean the rise of the
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: opioid epidemic and people who are odeing on drugs and
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: all this stuff that's in precisely the same demographic you're
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: talking about. You're just talking about a check from one
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: place as opposed to another place. I don't really see
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: how that solves the problem. I think we have a
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: crisis of purpose right now. And I don't think that
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: that crisis of purpose is solvable on the one hand,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: by changing our trade rules. And I also don't think
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: that crisis of purpose is solvable by cutting a government check.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: I just don't think that that's how people are wired.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: Agree with you that there is a crisis of purpose.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: My concern is about automation and my concern and obviously
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: I haven't really studied this other than talking to Andrew
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Yang and talking to Elon Musk and a few other
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: people that are proponents of universal basic income. They think
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: that there's going to be such a massive loss of
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: jobs in such a short period of time from people
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: that are non skilled laborers, and it's going to go
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: away there's millions and millions of jobs and these people
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: are not going to have anything, and that it could
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: be chaos.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: Right, So there's two problems that come up there, and
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: this is where Andrew's book is interesting because problem number
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: one is that the people will be poor.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: They won't have a source of income. UBI solved that
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: the other.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: Port of But does it even it gives him a
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars a month, even.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: If you have did right, I mean, even if you
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: just had a Swedish redistribution system and the average tax
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: rate when I'm sixty percent or something, it might Let's
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: say we could solve the money problem for a second,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: which you know, without tanking the economy, which is questionable.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: But let's say we could do that.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: We could add trillions of dollars to the budget every
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: year and we could solve that. I'm still not sure
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: that that solves the deeper problem, which is that when
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: people lose jobs, they lose purpose. Yes, right, So I'm
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: not sure that UBI solves that problem. As I say,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: we have we have a rich social welfare network in
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: the United States, and we're seeing this stuff happen anyway.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: less catastrophic. By a little bit, I mean a fair
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: bit less catastrophic in my thinking about automation than either
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: Andrew Yang or Elon.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: I think that people will be able to adapt quick
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: enough to avoid the problems. They'll realize the jobs aren't
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: there anymore, and they'll just naturally gravitate towards other professors.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: I think over time that people will do that, but
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: they're not always the same people. There's always shift in
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: the economy, and the ideal economic model has a trucker
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: becoming a coder, right, but that's that's not really that was.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: That whole learned to Code fiasco people kicked off of Twitter, right,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: it still eerently.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently if you say to journalists, then that's that's
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: very bad. If you say learn to code to a truck, Yeah,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: that's what it was.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: That's learn to code to a trucker.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: If you say learn to code to a trucker, then
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: that's just you being helpful. If you say learn to
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: code to a journalist, then that is targeted harassment on Twitter.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: That's where that's so says to me, well, how dwork?
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: Twitter doesn't care about you. I can say whatever I
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: want to but it's uh, but yeah, I mean I
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: think that.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: But if you just say it's a friend, hey, fuck face,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: learn to code.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know you to the censorship.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: It's such a dumb thing to take people out for.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: It's one of the best examples of like how censorship
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: oversteps its boundaries and becomes almost like satire.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's really, it's really really.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: Like this is the biggest aggression ever learned to code.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: Learn to code.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: That's something like, this is a stupid thing that someone
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: said about coal miners. They literally said that about coal miners,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: that maybe they could learn to code, and so everybody
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: like what the fuck, And so learned to code became
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: a joke and became something that you would mock people.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: Right there is their explanation for it was so crazy.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: It was like, no, then learn to code got connected
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: with white.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: White supremacy and all this stuff.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: That's that's that's that's the Hitler owned dog argument, right,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: the dogs are bad Hitler owned one. Okay, white supremacists
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: are bad. They use the phrase learn to code. That
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: means if you say learn to code, you're a white supremacist.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Like what the They lost the frog that fucking frog.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: That feels good, man, that's what happened.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: They killed the frug, they turned the frinkin frog.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Gay. I mean, what, yeah, that's yeah, but.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean as far as automation, you know, there's
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: constantly people saying this is the the Nicholason. It seemed
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: to lead view of reality, which is that the black
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: Swan incident can happen any second, so watch out for it,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: versus the sort of Stephen Pinker view of reality, which
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: is the black Swan incident is called the black Swan
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: incident because it's a black Swan incident, meaning that it
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: happens incredibly rarely. You know, the idea that we are
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: on the verge of a catastrophic drop in job numbers
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: because of the automation of trucking, for example, I'm not
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: sure that I buy it. The reason I don't buy
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: it is because you still are going to need someone
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: sitting behind the wheel of that truck. They're human drivers
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: on the road. It's gonna there will be a gradual
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: transition away from some of these jobs. Andrew Yang talks
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: about radiologists and how radiologists are going to be priced
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: out of the market by computers, they can do a
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: better job of diagnosing tumors. First of all, awesome, right,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: I mean that's that's good as well. That brings down
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: cost and you won't get cancer as advanced.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: That'd be a good thing. But second of.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: All, what a lot of technology studies have tended to
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: show is that technology just gets integrated in a different.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: Way in particular careers.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: So there will be jobs that are eliminated, for sure,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: there will be jobs we haven't heard of that will
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: be created also, and mostly technology will become more of
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: a productivity aid to people. So this is true in factories.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: Jobs have been lost in factories, it's the best example
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: of our jobs are lost. But it's mostly true in offices. Right,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: how many office jobs have been created because you have
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: computers where more office jobs exist because I write by hand?
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Do you think that this is akin to like a
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: government bailout? Like the idea of the government bailout was
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: like the banks are too big to fail, and some
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: people thought, you know what, you got to let them fail.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: So you figure out why they've failed and will never
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: have it happen again. If there is this thing and
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: the government steps and says, wait a minute, I know
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: you lost all your jobs. We're going to give you
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: a thousand dollars. You don't have to figure it out
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: a thousand dollars a month. And some people go, okay,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to figure it out now, whereas those
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: people might have gone on a fear failed old journey
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: to try to figure out their purpose in life because
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: now they're they're stuck where their job doesn't exist anymore,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: so they're putting it there. I mean, they have to act.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: There is there is enervation that comes from from a
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: welfare check. I mean, there are people who become dependent
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: on government and there used to being independent on government.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: That stuff is true, It does happen.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, and listen.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: Milton Freeman made an argument for universal basic income as
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: a replacement for the welfare system. There is another problem
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: with universal basic income that I asked Andrew about also,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: and that was, you know, one of the one of
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: the big issues is that poor people, very often people
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: who are permanently impoverished, not people who are temporarily poor.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: But they tend not to spend money where we think
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: they ought to spend money. They're not taking that money
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: and they're not putting it into education or into them.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: They might just be buying their hose and cigarettes.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, the the average person who is making less
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: than I think it is sixteen thousand dollars a year
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: spend four hundred dollars year on lottery tickets, right, mean,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: it's legitimately just flushing your money down the toilet. So
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: it's so how do you aren't you just going to
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: end up back in the same place, you know, in
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: six months where people took that money and used it
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: in ways that actually didn't benefit them. And at a
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: certain point, the question is do you own your decisions
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: or do you not own your decisions? And at what
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: level of incompetence or inability do we say you no
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: longer own your decisions and so we're just going to
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: take care of you on a permanent basis. That's really
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: the question here.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: I think we're looking at when you're talking about welfare,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: we're looking at worst case scenario, right where someone does
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: get dependent upon the welfare state and does use that
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: money frivolously and does make poor decisions. But then there's
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: got to be other people that are single moms that
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe had a kid with some fucking asshole
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: that doesn't want to pay and it is a piece
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: of shit and they have to hide from them and
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: they're just trying to feed their kids. Yeah, for sure,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: those people exist too, have a community to help them out.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're not a part of a church, and maybe
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: they don't have a good group of neighbors. Maybe they
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: had to move somewhere for work and they got stuck
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: in someplace where they don't know anybody.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: But I think part of this is to recognize that
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: incentives matter on both ends. So the idea is that
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: you give some people more money and they'll they'll do well.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: It's also true that if you create a welfare system
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 3: that benefits single motherhood, you will get more single motherhood.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, the single motherhood rate in the black community
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: before welfare was twenty percent, now it's seventy percent. In
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: the white community, it was like five percent, now was
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: forty percent.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: You've said that like out of wedlock children and having
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: a kid when you're young is like it's a terrible
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: idea for your life. But what do you recommend to
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: have kids avoid that? Are you one of those people
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: that think they're without that thing on it no condoms?
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: As we're saying right like don't don't have don't don't
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: have unprotected sex. I mean like this this is not
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: it's not part of my my fake cursing. It's not
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: effing rocket science.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, like like politicizing for not.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: Apologizing for not cursing. Yeah, it's it's not rocket size.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: This is one of always.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: Kids make mistakes, and I mean that's what happens people.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 3: Okay, Well, but and then if the government pays for
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: those mistakes, it becomes less.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: So what should what should happen? Should the kids suffer? So? Who? No,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: I mean should it be? I mean how should it
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: be worked out?
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: I mean it depends on the situation. Yeah, you know,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: if there are parents available to the kid, presumably the
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: parents the grandparents would take a pretty active role in
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: the raising that kid.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: Als assume they're there.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: Well, how about this, how about we assume that if
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: you are old enough to get pregnant, then you are
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: old enough to let's let's talk about a seventeen.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: Year old or eighteen year old used to be shocked
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: on marriages were.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: A thing, and really, like that's a good idea.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: I think the idea of parents staying together for the
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: sake of a kid that they accidentally bore is absolutely
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: a good idea.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think that.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: I think that is a better idea than the man
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: walking away and the kid being without a man in
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: the house.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: Sold A lot of people figure a way to work
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: it out, Yes, and if they were both reasonable, they
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: could do that.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: By the way, a huge percentage of American births in
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: the forties and fifties were exactly this. There were a
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: lot of seven month babies in the forties and fifties,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: like something like thirty to forty percent of all kids
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: born in the thirties and forties and fifties were seven
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: month babies. Or somebody got knocked up, and then the
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: expectation was, now you're going to like you did, you
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: did the crime, Now you do the time, right, I mean.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: Like this that puts people in relationship prison.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: Good, don't don't then don't don't don't find somebody, find
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: find somebody to have sex, Find somebody to have sex
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: with who you actually think is worthy of a relationship.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: Right now, my mind, pornography is available to you, like,
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: figure it out.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: You're okay with that on a moral level, h No.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: But if I'm going to if I'm going to compare
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: that to having a baby out of wed locked and yeah, this.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: Is what I think about pornography. They could stop now
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: and we're good forever. But yet they could they keep
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: making it like I think you.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: Guys, there's no there's no supply and demand problem.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: Like I think you like making it. You guys are
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: a bunch of freaks. I mean, there's no it's like
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: a business is It's almost like you have excess houses
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: that stack up to the moon, Like there's no way
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: everyone's gonna live in all those houses. Why do you
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: keep making house? There's no way one persons ever jerked
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: off to every video that ever existed. It doesn't it's
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: not possible. It's like and it's also like other forms
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: of media where they just stack up. I never really
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: thought of that until you have.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: The backlog of internet pornographa you liked, you know, I'm
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: a month behind now.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: Which just think about music, right, there's all the music
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: that existed before, in the fifties and the sixties and
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: the seventies and the eighties, and there's new shit every
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: goddamn day. It never ends. It's this overwhelming library of
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: stuff that we have to explode.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: It would be good if if that music changed from
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: time to time, the same song recorded seven different ways.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: You know, But what kind of shit do you listen to?
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: What do you think I listened to you? I listen
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: to classic jazz and classical of course.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're so interesting. I was.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: I was a concert level violinist until I was until
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: I was like seventeenears.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: You still practice, yeah, I mean the.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: Only expensive object that I own other than my house
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: is violin.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah? Is it a strata area?
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: It is not, it is it is a It's not.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: That's all I know.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's yeah. The two that people may know or
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: strata in like a goordinary. But those those ones are
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: like hundreds of thou hundred dollars. This is in the
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: tens of thousands of dollars.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: A strata viarus is hundreds of thousands of Yeah.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: I had a guy who we knew, my family knew,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: he had a million dollars strat of areas.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so big about it was the big deal.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, aside from the historic value of the thing,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: they're not making any more of them.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: It does play very differently. I mean very differently.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: I had a crappy violin for most of my like
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 3: really until the last two years. I had a violin
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: that was handed down for my grandfather that was worth
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: maybe thirteen hundred bucks, and it was a piece of crap.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was a not a good violin. If
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: you're good enough, then you can tell the difference between
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: a really great violin to play and one that is
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: a piece of garbage. And I was good enough to
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: do that, So that's yeah, I mean I was. I
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: was a classical guy. I played I played violin for years,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: and my dad was a growing up, my dad was
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: a pianist.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: Look at what Jamie just pulled up. The most expensive
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: violin in the world, sold for and estimated sixteen million dollars.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: YEP.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: Of areas, they never lose value, I mean really they don't.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: This is this is a good investment. The person I
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: know a guy who who's offered a strat it I
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: think it was two one hundred and fifty thousand dollars
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: maybe ten years ago, and he's like, no, that it's
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: worth like three million dollars to.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: God, Now, what is the deal? Like, what if you
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: had to explain what's the difference between the sound that
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: this makes.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: So I mean it has to do with the acoustics
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: of the instrument, meaning the wood quality. There's there's slight
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: variations in the construction of the instrument. Certain parts of
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 3: it are thicker or thinner, and it is also it's
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: easier to play a better violin, so it almost covers
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: for your mistakes. When you play a bad violin, it
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: tends to scratch and screech more. That's why when you
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: get in the upper register with a violin you hit
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 3: very high notes, it can either be very screechy or
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: can be very beautiful. Some of that, a lot of
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 3: most of that's the player. Some of that's the violin.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: Yasha Heifetz, who's widely considered the greatest violinist to ever live,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: he had a strat.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: Is lady blunt. Stratavarius cost fifteen point nine million dollars.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: People by these and then they lend them out on
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: loan to you know, world's great violinists.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: But in the end, it really is the quality of
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: the player.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 3: There's a famous Yasha Hifetz story where he was playing
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: at Harnegie Hall and some lady came up to him afterwards,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: and she said, you know, you're violin it just it
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: sounds so beautiful. And he picks up the violin and
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: puts it to his year and he says, funny, I
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: don't hear it right now.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: So do you listen to any other kind of music?
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like I like some classic rock.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: Do yeah, yeah, I mean see rocking out. Yeah.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: I went to a Doobie Brothers concert with my parents.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, yeah, really yeah. Yeah, that's a band that
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: was named after a joint. That is true, that's accurate.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: I know, did you feel like a like a sinner?
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: I was a rebel that day that was really going
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: to the Doobie Brothers concert with the other boomers.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: So the other thing is same sex marriage. There's the
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: other thing that I think that we disagree with. Well,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: I we agree with the marriage thing, right, And I
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: don't think the men's government should be involved. I think
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: where people should be protected is through assets and you
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: know the contract. Yeah, I think that that all makes
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: sense to me. That all that's in terms of like
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: alimony and child support and all those things makes sense
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: to me. And that and the idea of the community
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: reinforces it, which would then become the government reinforce and
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. That all makes sense to me, I
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: understand it. But why do you care if two gay
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: guys want to get married?
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 3: So from a religious point of view, let's go from religious,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: So why would do a secular point of view first?
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: So the idea is not that I care deeply whether
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: two gay guys want to get married to each other.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: The idea is that do I prefer traditional marriage to
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: to same sex marriage?
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: Well, let me phrase it this way, what do you
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: think a gay guy is? Do you think someone's they're
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: making a choice or do you think that this is
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: how they were born?
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: So the religious point of view on this, and I
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: think this is actually just the general conservative point of view,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: and human action generally is I don't know, meaning that
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: for the vast majority of people would assume that they
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: have a biological drive to engage in that behavior. But
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: the traditional sort of will point of view is that
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: biological drive does not necessarily match up to the activity
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: you ought to engage in. Right, men, for example, have
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: a biological drive to from pregnant many women, that's not
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: something religion is cool with either.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: Right, So the idea is that religion is cool with
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: a man being with one woman and impregnating her. But
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: you're not cool with a man being with a man.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: So I can give you the religious explanation, and I
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: can give you the secular explanation. So the religious explanation
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: is that there is something different about a woman than
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: there is about a man, and a man is made
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: better through his union with a woman, and that if
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: you pervert the sex drive to pursue mere pleasure instead
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: of a lasting relationship upon which the basis of society
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: is built, then you are foregoing the proper use of
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: your sex drive.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: Right, But you wanted to step in and argue against that.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: You would say that just because someone can't get pregnant
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they don't have a loving relationship that
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: contributes to society.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: Well, that's true, but it is also foregoing the more
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 3: productive relationship of being able to bear in your children.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: And also recognizing that sex they're not different, right, and
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: recognizing also the sexes are not the same. So you know,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: being with a man is in a relationship different than
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: being with a woman. I would assume, I mean, I
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 3: assume that's why gay.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: Guys are gay.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: If it weren't, then I assume that they would be
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: fine with being with a woman. Right, So that's so
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: that relationship from a from a religious perspective is more
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: valuable because women have different qualities than men. You round
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: off each other's harsh edges. It changes you.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're married.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: Being married changes a man in a different way that
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: being married to a member of the same sex would.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: Right, But I don't want people to have to do it.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: But if you're maybe they are not forcing anybody, right.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: But I want them to have the option. And if
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: you're a gay person and we say adult no, I mean,
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: of course, because legally we agree, right, yeah, legally.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: And I keep making this distinction because whenever I talk
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: about my moral perspective on things, then people immediately assume
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: that I'm a theocratic fascist, And I just want to
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: keep underscoring, like my personal views on Dave Ruben's marriage
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: are no consequence to public policy in any way whatsoever.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: But I agree with you on that, and I don't
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: think it should be a part of public policy. And
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: I think people should absolutely be allowed to marry and
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: divorce and do whatever the fuck they want to do,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: no matter who it is. But why do you care,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: Like as a person who's a rational thinker, it's pretty
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: clear that people are gay. And I don't really think
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: that this is a decision they make in terms of
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: like I'm going to make a clear choice to defy
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: God and be gay. I think they're just gay.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: Well again, I think that's a conflation.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: It's everyone.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: It's a conflation of identity and drive with activity, which
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: is something that religion fundamentally rejects. Okay, right, So religion
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: fundamentally rejects the idea that you are driven to do something.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 3: Therefore it is your identity. Therefore you get to participate
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: in behavior. That's a chain of thinking that religion.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: So in religion, if a man is gay in your religion,
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: if a man is gay and they're in love with
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: another man, they should just squash those thoughts and find
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: a woman.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: Well, ideally they would be honest with the woman they marry,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 3: so they're not like bossing, but they would want to
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: Ideally you would still get married and have children in
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 3: heterosexual relationship. If you're not up to that, then you
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 3: wouldn't get married at all.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: To when you describe this to a gay man, they
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: will tell you imagine Ben Shapiro if someone said to you,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: you should stop being with your beautiful wife and you
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: need to now marry a man because this is what
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: God wants you to do. So you're going to have
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: to stoop this man, and he's going to stoop you.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: And because this is how the rules are set up.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: Sounds pretty terrible, right, Well, this is how it sounds
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: to gay folks when you're telling them they have to
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: find a woman.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: And I like what, I'm not saying you have to
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: find a woman. I'm saying, well, I'm saying you can't
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 3: do X. Right, I'm not saying but you must, but
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: saying can't. But by whose determination? If you decide to
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: participate in this religion, right, then there is a buy
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: in to the precepts of the religion.
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: And the buy in is can't be gay?
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: Well no, the buian is that you can have whatever
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: sexual orientation you please, but there's certain activity you can't
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 3: participate in.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: So you can be gay, but you can have gay sex.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: Correct. That's, by the way, that's what the Bible.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, if we want to go direct to the
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 3: text of the Bible, it's what the Bible actually says, right,
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, even the parts the Bible that people really hate.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: Those parts say that a man shall not lie with
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: a man. It doesn't say a man can't be attracted
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: to another man.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: That's Old Testament, right, Yeah, that's right.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: That's our stuff, right, New Testament. It gets a little
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: harsher than the New Testament in some places Romans Corinthians.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: But in any case, you know, again, when it comes
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: to this is what I'm puzzled by is the idea
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: that this is a unique area of human behavior that
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: religion is supposed to treat differently. I meaning religion treats
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: virtually every human activity like this. Sin is a failure
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 3: to abide by a covenant. Right, That's that's the definition
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: of sin.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: When you commit a sin in Judaism and aveira in Judaism,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: what you are doing is failing to do a mitzvah,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: which is a commandment. You're violating a commandment. Well, there
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: are lots of commandments that go directly against what people
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: are driven to do. Just because the drive is stronger
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: does not make it morally more morally non culpable to
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: violate that commandment. So when people pick this one out
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 3: and they say, well, this one is particularly intolerant. For example,
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: I don't see why it's more particularly intolerant than saying
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: to a man that you have to marry one woman,
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: or saying to a Jew that you are not allowed
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: to eat this stuff, or like it's it may be harder,
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: I think there's any question it's harder to abide by
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 3: those commandments, but it is well within religious tradition, like
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 3: literally every religious tradition, that there's a bunch of stuff
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: you are driven to do that you can't. Now, again,
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: you don't have to agree with my program. I'm not
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 3: trying to convert you. There's one of the nice things
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: about my religion. I don't give a crap whether people
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 3: are Jewish or not, like we actively discourage converts. But
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: if you're going to proclaim that you are, you know,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 3: abiding by traditional Judaism, this is the buy in, right,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: There's lots of buy and you have to wear a
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: funny hat sometimes, you have to go to school on Saturdays,
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: you have to keep shrabat. Like, there's a lot of
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 3: buy in. And as long as I'm not bothering anybody else,
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: I frankly don't see what business it is of legitimately
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 3: anybody's what I think about personal relationships. I'm not imposing
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 3: my view on anybody else.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I do acknowledge that at all, the religion's judaism
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: probably makes it the most obvious. They don't give a
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: fuck what you do. Go ahead, do you think like
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: they're not trying.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: To You're doing your business.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: My uncle converted, and when you give very it was
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: a grind man. He had to learn a lot of shit.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: Like three years of a grind a long time.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, it's a long time.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: So that was the religious perspective and the secular perspective.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: When it comes to valuing traditional marriage over same sex marriage,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: that's a very simple calculation, which is one type of
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: marriage produces traditional children. It produces children in the traditional
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: biological way, and then you have both parents in the
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: house to take care of the kid. Right, that's the
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: value of marriage. And I fully acknowledge that when the
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 3: value of marriage shifted from it's about production and wearing
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: of children too, it's two people who love each other.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: The case for same sex marriage against same sex marriage
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: when completely out the window.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: Right, So you are just sticking to your rigid ideology
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: in terms of like what you believe to be a
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: sin and not believe to be a sin based on
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: your religion, based on this very strict moral fiber, that
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: this religion is operating.
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 3: In a religious context. I mean it applies to me,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 3: it applies to my family, it doesn't apply to you.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: Right, any room for growth in that when people have
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: a better understanding about biology. So if it was proven,
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: if there's proven, like, oh, this is why a person
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: develops blue eyes, this is why a person is gay.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: This is why. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: a very it's red hair, it's freckles, it's gay, it's strange.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 3: You can tell me that that homosexual orientation is one
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 3: hundred percent biologically driven, and I will almost completely agree
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: with that. I think that there are some cases where
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: it's not, but those are rare.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: But this is particularly true. But by the way, the.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: Research tends to show that there's more sexual fluidity among
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: females than males males, it tends to be either heterosexual
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: or homosexually.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: That research is all done by dudes want their wives
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: to hook up with chips. But keep going, let me
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: stop you, but let me just show you the paperwork. Wrong.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: But again that it's a question that I've always found
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: actually not particularly interesting, simply because it doesn't take into
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: account the worldview generally, which is that a biological drive
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 3: doesn't not equal excuse for behaving in a certain way.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: But that's where it brings me back to this, Like,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: is it possible that these laws in this religion were
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: written when they mean to who do you think wrote
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: the stuff? Do you think people wrote the stuff? Or
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: do you think God wrote that?
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 3: I think either way, even if it were, I mean,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 3: because I am an Orthodox Jew, I believe that at
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: the very least it's God inspired and God written. Right,
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 3: But even if I believed on a second level that
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 3: human beings were at that stuff, So I think that
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: people three thousand years ago had never seen a gay
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 3: person before. Like, the very reason to have a commandment
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: is because certain people in your community are behaving in
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: a particular way, presumably right, there's no commandment not to
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: take your head and shove it into megrinder.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: Well, this is also the argument against pork is because
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: they didn't understand trichinosis. They understand you have to cook
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: the meat to one hundred and forty five degrees in
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: pork parasites, which are very dangerous for people.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: So I'm not a huge fan of naturalistic explanations for religion.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 1: Do I think that's a good one though? For pork, I.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: Mean, I don't know, Like I think you could make
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: an argument.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe it had just died in India and there's a
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: horrific X rays of his head. He had parasites from
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: pork that had gotten into his body, and they had
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: nested in his brain started developing all these cysts inside
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: of his head, and they couldn't do anything about it
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: because it was so deep in his head that if
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: they gave him the anti anti parasitic medication it would
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: cause swelling of the brain and the like it was.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: It was so the story.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: It's actually pig ship. Apparently the people accidentally coming in
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: contact the pig ship produces this particular type of parasite.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: It's more rare, but trickonosis was pretty common.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: But again their attempts to sort of paint back into
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 3: the Bible, certain rationalistic explanations.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: Make sense, though, I think, why else would you would
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: it be bad to eat pigs like Jesus loves pigs?
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: Is that what's going on?
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that the the reversal of the Kosher
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: laws in the New Testament. You know, from from a
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 3: Jewish point of viewe, we don't believe in the divinity
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 3: of Christ. I think that there he can make an
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 3: argument that the the Gospels which were written, he was
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: just sign. No, no, no, we don't even believe he's
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: a prophet.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: What do you think he was? What do you guys?
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: I mean what I what do I think he was?
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: Historically?
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: I think he was a Jew who tried to lead
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: a revolt against the Romans and got killed for his trouble,
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 3: just like a lot of other Jews at that time
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 3: who were crucified for trying to lead revolts against the
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: Roman and got killed for their trouble.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: So he became legend in story and it became a
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: bigger and bigger deal as time they had.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: A group of followers, and then that gradually grew and
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 3: then no, that's not that's not a Jewish belief. Yeah no,
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 3: or we're not into the stories.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: No, that's you don't have any miracles, No.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: Not not by Jesus. Right, they're there ones in the
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: Old Testament. Yeah, you've got Moses splitting the sea and
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: all that.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: What do you think happened there?
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: What do I think happened there? Yeah, well, I'll go
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: with the my monody and explanation that there was. I mean,
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: it says in the Bible there was a strong east wind,
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: so there was a naturalistic explanation for a physical phenomenon.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's what my monody's is constantly trying
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 3: to do, is read nature back into the MM.
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That is the problem with these texts, right, is
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: that you're trying to decipher translations from original text which
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: are written in h and Hebrew thousands of years ago
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: and were told in an oral tradition for longer than that.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 3: Right, right, I mean this is this is where you
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: know my book which I always hesitate to pitch my
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: own stuff because it sounds ghost pitch away. But the
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 3: new book, The Right Side of History a number one
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: New York Times best selling mounfiction books.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: Way a mate, you got number one in the New
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: York Times best selling Really.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we sold enough that we knocked Michelle Obam out
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: of the wood slat for a week. So is there
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: a protest, Well, no protests yet, but suffices to say
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: The New York Times book reviewer didn't like it, but
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 3: I'm not super shocked by that. But the basic contention
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 3: that I make is that Judeo Christian values on the
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 3: one hand and then human reason on the other, Greek reason,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 3: really that that tradition is attention, and that that tension
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 3: is where Western civilization lives. That basically civilization is a
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 3: suspension bridge. It takes certain fundamental precepts of Judeo Christian
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: values on the one hand, and then takes Greek reason,
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 3: and they're pulling against each other. And sometimes reason feels
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: like it's going to dominate religion, and sometimes it feels
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 3: like religion is going to dominate reason. And in the
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 3: best of all available worlds, you have a bridge that
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 3: is capable of building upon where you can actually have
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: a functional civilization. And if you lose reason in the
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 3: name of theocracy, then you end up with tyrannical theocracy.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: And if you lose and if you lose religion in
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 3: the name of reason, you end up in some pretty
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 3: dark places. Because human beings don't have a very good
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 3: track record of creating their own purpose, creating their own meaning,
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 3: creating their own systems, we tend to get very utopian
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 3: very quickly. And things get really ugly, which is sort
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 3: of the story of the particularly the first half of
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 3: the twentieth century.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: So this is the benefit of sticking to the rigid
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: ideology that's prescribed by religion, is that you don't allow
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: the human beings to keep updating it and changing in
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: because if you do, they will eventually slide into chaos.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 3: Well, yes, but which is not to say there's not
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 3: playing the joints, right, there's certainly religion has morphed over time.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 3: In Judaism as it was practiced originally probably in many
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: ways does not resemble Judaism as practice now, right, I mean,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 3: in fact, the Taumud even says this. I mean, there's
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 3: there's this kind of fascinating and counterintuitive section of the
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 3: Tumud where Moses is it's it's what it's called the Gottata,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: which some of these stories that are just kind of
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 3: put into the into the middle of the Taumut where
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 3: Moses comes back and he's watching from on high as
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 3: a bunch of rabbis in you know, second century Palestine
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 3: are are talking about Judaism, and He's like, I don't
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 3: recognize any of this stuff, Like I brought down these
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 3: books from the Mountain, and I do not recognize any
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 3: of this stuff. And God says to him, you know,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: God says to him, right, I mean this is how
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 3: this is morph did.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: Moses is pleased? In other words, he's not.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 3: Judaism has always had a common law tradition where you're
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 3: using reason to try and develop the ideas behind the
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: commandments and then try and extend them or broaden them.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 3: And I think that's a good thing, but you have
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: to be careful not to completely undermine fundamental roots or
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: or get rid of basic precepts. In other words, you
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 3: have to you have to acknowledge there are certain fundamental
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: truths that exist there, and then there's play as far
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: as how those are implemented.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: Does Judaism have one of those pray the gayaway traditions?
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: So that's not that's not a thing. I mean, it's
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: what do they.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: Want guys to do? Like what would say, what would
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: you do if.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: Not not to sin?
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 3: But again, sin is a sin is a thing that
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 3: everybody does, meaning that masturbation is not is not okay
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 3: according to Judaism. I assume that a vast majority of
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: young Jewish Men, even the Orthodox, are masturbating, so people sin.
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's a recognition, It's it's always Again,
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 3: I think I can speak on behalf of I will
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 3: audaciously speak on behalf both.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: Choosing Christians here, I think.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 3: That religious people are are told that when they say
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: that something is a sin, this means that they are
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 3: looking askance at the people who are committing the sin,
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: and that is not correct. I mean, what Judaism and
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 3: Christianity say is that we are all committing sins on
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: a fairly regular basis. Where we get uptight is when
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 3: people start saying, because I have a desire for the sin,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 3: the sin is no longer a sin.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah. The real problem is like why is it
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: a sin? Like who says it's a sin? So again,
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: again these rules you were assuming are influenced by God, right,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: but clearly written by people.
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: Well this one, you would say if you're a fundamentalist
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 3: or at least somebody who believes in the idea that
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 3: the tour was given by God was given literally by God.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 3: But again that doesn't the logic behind the rules, which
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 3: you know, people like my monodies have tried to explicate
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: the idea is as I said, a second this you
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: can do without God. Right, this part you can do
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 3: without God. The human sex drive was made to pro
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 3: create within a stable relationship in order to progenerate and
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 3: have future generations of people. Misuse of that sex drive
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 3: in any way, whether you're talking about from masturbation to
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: homosexual activity, is therefore a diminishment of the use of
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: that drive. That's the natural law case against homosexual activity.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: And again, I will reiterate for media matters for the
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 3: one millionth time, I'm not in favor of any of
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 3: this being encoded into American law because freedom is freedom.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: People should be able to send how they choose as
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 3: long as they're not harming anybody else.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: Right now, But what about people that have had best
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: sectomies and what about women.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 3: That also Judaism is not cool with the sectomies not
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 3: cool with it, And there's Catholicism from what I understand.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, well, I'm not a big fan of
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: that one either, That one I have more experience with.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: But so if what if a man is sterile and
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: the woman's sterile, Are they allowed to have sex if
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: they both know so?
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 3: Yes, because there are ancillary benefits to married couples having
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: sex like relationship building. But that's not a generalized case
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 3: against the favored view of sex.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 3: That's that's sort of like arguing that intersex people mean
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 3: that there's no such thing as.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: Two separate sexes.
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: There are two separate sexes, and also they're intersex people
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 3: who have a condition. Yes, right, And that's the same
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 3: thing here. The case in favor of heterosexual sexual activity
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 3: does not change based on the fact that some people
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 3: can't actually participate in that.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: What would you do if a young gay guy came
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: to you for advice? If someone said, Hey, Ben, I'm
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: an admirer of yours. I love the way you think
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: and follow your philosophies, but I've got a problem. I'm
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: a young Jewish man and I'm gay, and I don't
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: know what to do. What would you tell them to do?
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can't tell them to do anything.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: Would you advise? Would you tell would you tell them
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: to not act out on those feelings?
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 3: I would say you do the best you can as
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 3: a human being, and from my moral perspective, you try
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: to avoid sin as best you can. But everybody sins.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: The problem is that sin, though it seems to me
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: that it was defined by people that didn't understand biology
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: because they were dealing with humans that existed thousands of
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: years ago. Again, I really understanding of why people are gay.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: I mean again, I really don't think that biblical commandments
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: are linked and religious comandments generally are linked to a
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 3: view of biology, meaning.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: That you don't think so, No, I think that all sin.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 3: Is a recognition that we have drives that we are
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 3: supposed to forego. Okay, that's pretty much. I mean, that's
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 3: that's und mental to certainly Judaism, it's to Christianity as well.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 3: I would say Islam even has his this basic precept.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: Right when I think we can agree that there's some
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: real benefits to discipline, there's real benefits to having structure,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean that you can't be creative. It
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you can't be free and do whatever
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: you want some of the time too. But I think
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: we can both agree that this is one of the
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: one of the best benefits of an ideology, and hopefully
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: a positive ideology.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 3: Right, And one of the things that I The reason
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 3: I keep coming back to the governmental regulation point is
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 3: because my view is that if your view of discipline
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 3: is not my view of discipline. Good on you, right, Like,
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: go do what you want to do. Like I've never
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 3: had a conversation with Dave Rubin about him being a
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 3: gay guy.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: Right, but you did say that you wouldn't go to
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: his marriage, right, Well, I said right.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 3: As a religious person, I can't say I can't actively
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 3: participate in something that I consider to be a sin.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 3: But I would go out to dinner with Dave and
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: his husband any time, like my wife and I would
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 3: do that. Of course, we'd have him over to our
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: house with his husband.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: Is No, you don't find any contradiction between your religious
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: perspective and your personal PRIs perspective in that regard that
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: you would you wouldn't be there for religious reasons, but
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: that you would be there for personal reasons. Like if
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: it wasn't if you would you go to the after party?
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: Like if you wouldn't go to the wedding, would you
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: go to the after party?
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: Anything that was a celebration of same sex marriage? You know? Wow,
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: so anything but you go to the party? No? I
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: mean's and if.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: There's a barbecue the next day, consider it.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 3: You know it's it's And again like I'm not sure
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 3: why I'm not a good party person, so I'm not
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: sure why anybody would want me at their party.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: It's a great party. I haven't been to a party
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: with you, but I went to a dinner party with you.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: That's right. We had a great time.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: That aime.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: That's a funny picture, man. That is people don't know
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: what the fuck to think about that picture.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: And it's certainly true.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: Eric and Jordan's Sam and you and I.
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: It's like what the supremacist in one place right all.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: The Yeah, that that is a disturbing one when they'll
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: just just lump you in with a bunch of fucking
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: psycho just because it's convenient for them, and it's an
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: easy way to diminish you. That that is a that
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: is a thing that I see more from the left
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: than from the right, and it's really disturbing. I always
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: thought until this clickbait generation came along, I always thought
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: that especially well, you know, the New York Times is
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: obviously the higher standard, but that you would never see
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: that kind of shit from progressive people. You would never
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: see willful distortion of reality to define their narrative in
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: a really disingenuous way. And it happens so often now
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: that people get called my favorite is all right adjacent.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that means.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: It doesn't they don't know what it means. It's a
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: new thing. It's a new thing. People trying out to
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: trying it not it might go away.
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 3: It's again trying to lump everybody into one group for
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 3: purposes of castigating their motives.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: Is really what this is.
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: You don't have to have an argument with somebody if
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 3: you assume they're a Nazi. So I guess if you
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 3: call everybody a Nazi, you don't have to have an argument.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: It is goofy. But you know, I think when it
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 1: comes to the gay marriage thing, what people really worry
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: about is other people trying to stop people from doing
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: what they want to do. You don't have that in you.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: That's not you. What you are doing is opposing it
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: from your your religious.
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 3: Beliefs, right, Like if you want to join into my shoal,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 3: that shoal has religious beliefs, right, and that's their business.
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 3: By the way, they're like, I can't join a church.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 3: I assume I don't believe the things that people in
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 3: the church believe.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: You probably could donate, you've got to give the right
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: amount of money.
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't believe in the Jesus, so there's there's
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: a Jesus.
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not my thing, right, I mean, so that's
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't expect to walk into a mosque and expect
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: them to change their their standards on religion. I find
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 3: it really audacious when people actually expect other people to
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: view the world the same way that they do and
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 3: then expect that they're going to be catered to in
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 3: that way. Like I wouldn't walk into I wouldn't walk
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 3: into a gay owned bakery and expect them to bake
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 3: a cake that has verses from Leviticus on it.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: The story is a weird story, you know, that bake
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: a cake story because it gets bandied about. Those folks
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: went to several bakers until someone said, no.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: This is correct. Yeah, they were looking for a court case.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 3: And honestly, like, that's not you being a civil rights
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 3: here that you've being a jackass. Seriously, like, go to
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 3: the other bakery. What do these people do to you.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: They didn't have anything to do with you, They don't
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: owe you their cake. And if you want to boycott them,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 3: boycott them, right, do you want to get all your
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 3: friends to say, we're not going to go buy a
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 3: cake from these discriminatory humans. Fine, is a free market,
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: have at it. But this notion that somebody owes you
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 3: their services, that to me, it's not even a freedom
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 3: of religion case. To me, that one's a freedom of
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 3: association case.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I think what the goal is is to shame
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: a business into submission, and also to put it out
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: there in the public eye so that people understand that
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: this is a discrimination that does happen with gay folks. Well,
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: they will go somewhere and someone won't make a cake
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: for them, right, you know. And so I think they
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: wanted to highlight it. So if I was being very
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: charitable and I didn't think there'll be an attention wrse,
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: I would say, maybe that's what they're doing. Maybe they're
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: just trying to highlight this very real problem.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 3: That's fine, But they actually like took it to the government.
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 3: Once you start pointing the government gun and people, I
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 3: get real uptight.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: So again, if it's a weird one, if you were
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: just to walk into you yeah.
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, you have to review it.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 3: Right, talk about how much you don't like them, fine,
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: you know, like I may disagree with you, or I
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 3: may agree with you whatever, that's that's fine. But once
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: you start going to the government and having the government
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 3: levy like one hundred thousand dollars fines on family bakeries
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 3: because they because you couldn't find a gay baker in
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 3: Colorado supposedly, like no, I'm sorry, that's that's not cool.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: And I feel the same way.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 3: If I walk into a bakery and they're like, you're Jewish,
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 3: we're not serving you, I'd be like, okay, you're you're
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 3: an a hole, But all right, I mean it's free
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 3: country and there's a bakery across the street. Or maybe
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 3: I'll just open a bakery next door to you and
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 3: take all your business.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's unfortunate that anyone would ever think like that.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: But should it be a law to force someone to
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: think differently? You can't. It doesn't work.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 3: This is this is my point. Is it's a slip
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: points to my religious beliefs. Nobody, Oh, you're a theocrat,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 3: and I keep coming back to I'm not though, Like,
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 3: I don't want to force my beliefs on anybody. Those
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 3: are my beliefs, so leave me alone, And those are
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 3: your beliefs, so leave you alone. And if we can't
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 3: have a system where we acknowledge that those beliefs can
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 3: coexist and we can still have conversations with each other
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 3: or be friends, it's going to be real hard to
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 3: have a society.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: When you told Dave Rubin that you wouldn't go to
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: his wedding, did he get but hurt? No, pun intended. No,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: he wasn't upset about it.
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 3: No, because because Dave and I were friends, he knows
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: that I have no anger or upset about him.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: Doing fuck Ben, Come on, man, I don't know.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not a friends person.
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: So you don't have any friends.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 3: I mean I have friends, but there it's like very
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 3: close friends and then acquaintances. M I tend to keep
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 3: a pretty close social circle.
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: That's smart. You have so much time in this life.
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: That's pretty much how I feel.
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if you're the kind of person where it
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 3: feels like a true obligation for me to drive you
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 3: to the airport, Oh, not a thing, man.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not driving you to the airport. Correct, they're correct.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: There people will make money off of you driving do that.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: This is this is exactly correct.
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: That's those people. But that that kind of went away
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: for the most part. So if you find someone who's
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: still asking for a ride of the airport, that's a
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: greedy motherfucker at this point, greedy bitch, you.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: Know, thirty bucks on the uber.
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like your wife or your girlfriend and she
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: wants to talk to you when you drop her off
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: the airport. That's totally cool, right, Well, that's understandable.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 3: This is but that's what I mean by my circle
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 3: of friendship, Like somebody where I'm in the car with
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 3: them for half an hour and it doesn't feel like
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 3: an obligation.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're a nice conversation.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: That's fine.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: But I value community and I value I value people
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: talking and trying to understand each other. And I've seen
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: so much conflict that's unnecessary, because I see so much
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: conflict that's rooted in people not communicating and instead of communicating.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: And I think this is one of the things that
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: I'm most nervous about with all this deplatforming and censoring
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: people and the silencing of people the right. And it's
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: not that I agree with these people, it's that I
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: see how this is just going to shore up these
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: two sides, and it's gonna make it a much more
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: difficult much more difficult atmosphere for communication, for real understanding
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: and coming to agreements on things, and recognizing the things
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: that we all, all good people seem to agree. You
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: could try. You should try to help each other, should
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: be kind to each other. You should work hard. You
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: should have good morals and ethics. You shouldn't steal, you
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: shouldn't take from people. You shouldn't lie, You shouldn't try
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: to cheat the government, you shouldn't try to cheat people. Right,
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: Just be a good fucking person, and that this transcends
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: religious ideologies, it transcends political leanings. It really does. It should,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: and we can have a truly diverse community, truly diverse,
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: not force diversity, diverse meanings. Some people are progressive, some
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: people are conservative, some people are libertarian. You can joke
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: with each other. We can all get along together and
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: disagree with things. Just not be fucking hateful towards each other.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: This is possible, well, but it becomes less possible when
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: people feel like they're being silenced or censored.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 3: It's totally right, and it's also true that when you
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 3: when you castigate somebody is morally unequal, what you're really
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 3: doing is you're giving an excuse to get into their shit.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, this is what's really happening here, Like
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 3: if I had a slogan beyond the facts, don't care
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 3: about your feeling stuff it just leave me alone, right,
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: don't get into my shit, Like, I'm not bothering you,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 3: So why are you bothering me? And if I have
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 3: a belief system that's different than yours, then so the
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 3: hell what as long as I'm not bothering you, what
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 3: difference does it make to you how I feel about things?
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: The only thing about the gay thing is that it's
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: not you. You have a belief about things that's not you.
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: But I have lots of beliefs about things that are
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: not me.
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: Right, But there are people that aren't hurting each other.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 3: But it's so what I mean, I can believe that
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 3: people who aren't hurting each other. Like I'm not a
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 3: fan of prostitution, so like, so I'm not a fan
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 3: of people.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: Here's somebody prostitution is clearly more of a choice than
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: I think gay people are.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm right, but you're coming back to the same
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 3: moral distinction which I've ever a few times, which is
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 3: that I'm not a believer that a natural desire to
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 3: do something therefore makes an activity. Okay, but that's but
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 3: that's a view that has no externalities. My view has
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 3: no externality. So in the same way, listen, I have
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 3: believes about people who eat too much and get obese
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 3: because they eat too much. I think it's a bad
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 3: thing to do. I don't think it's my business. You
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 3: want to do it your problem like you want to
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 3: you wanna f up your life.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: That's what freedom is called, isn't it one of the
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 1: seven Deadly sins? Gluttony?
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that again a Christian thing, But yeah, I think that.
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 3: But it's but yes, I mean, and I have. I
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 3: have lots of beliefs about lots of things that people
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 3: do and by the way, so to you, and things
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 3: that don't affect you, right, I mean, this is we
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 3: all do. But as long as I'm not forcing that
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 3: on you, because they are no externalities to your behavior,
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 3: I don't see why it bothers you like they're Legitimately,
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 3: I would assume tens of millions of people in this
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 3: country who believe that when I die, I will go
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 3: to Hell, right, I don't. I don't believe in Jesus.
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 3: And so there are a lot of people who believe.
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 3: I don't believe in Jesus. Therefore I am bound for
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: hell that does not bother me one iota because no
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: one's bothering me.
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 1: So what do I care? Right?
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: Like, I don't understand everyone doesn't take this view. If
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 3: I'm not legitimately bothering you, why should Why should you care?
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 2: What I think?
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: Like this is?
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: This is what would be puzzling me.
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: If somebody came to me and they wanted my opinion
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 3: on something because they value my opinion that much, I'd
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: give my opinion, but you don't have to care about
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 3: my opinion.
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: I think when it comes to the gay thing, what
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: people are looking for is to people for other folks
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: to be accepting of who they are. And I think
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: for a lot of these gay folks that have been
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: in the closet their whole life, that's the big things.
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: They're always worried about someone treating them differently or someone
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: diminishing them because they're gay. Then when they hear someone
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: like you say that you think it's a sin and
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: that you shouldn't act on your biology even though you
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 1: have these urges that you should instead find a woman,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: they feel the same pangs of rejection.
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 3: I get that, I for sure get that, But the
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 3: confluence between activity and identity is actually kind of a
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 3: dangerous one, meaning that the you know, the the idea
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 3: that if I disapprove of an activity in which you engage,
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 3: that I disapprove of you. Right, I disapprove of lots
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 3: of activities in which lots of people engage, including most
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 3: members of my family, including my children a lot of
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 3: the time. That does not mean I disapprove of them
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 3: as a human being, or that I'm I'm saying they're
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 3: lesser as a human being, right that, Like we all
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 3: interact with people this way, Like you disapprove of my
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 3: view on this, I don't get the feeling you disapprove
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 3: of me as a human being.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: No, I don't.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 3: I practice a religion. You obviously think my religion is bullshit,
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 3: But that's okay. I don't care why.
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's bullshit. I wouldn't say I think
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: it's bullshit.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: I think God spoke to somebody in the mountain's bullshit.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, I don't even know if that's bullshit. What
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: I do know is that it's a historical interpretation of
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: stories that were as much as they could or as
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: little as they wanted to be accurately defined and written
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: down and then passed on from generation to jo Let
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: let me.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 3: Think of for an example, you think the fact that
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 3: I won't eat pork is kind of stupid bullsh.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think it's stupid bullshit. First of all,
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: I think pigs are intelligent. I wish they weren't wild.
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: I have a deep affinity to pigs. I love them,
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: but I also kill them when you eat I mean,
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: I kill wild pigs.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 3: Let me be broader about this. You're not an orthodox juice.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 3: I assume there are things about the things well, but
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 3: there are certain things of which I believe or practice
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 3: that you that you probably disapprove, or you don't think
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 3: they're the smartest, or you think that they're.
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: I might not think it's the smartest, but as I've
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: gotten older and hopefully wiser, I give a fuck less
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: about why you do what you do. But whether or
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: not the benefits seem to be worth if the juice
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: is worth a squeeze, right, And in your case, I
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 1: think the juice is worth a squeeze. I think you're
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: a very successful person. You're very reasonable, you're very intelligent,
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: You're an outstanding debater, and I enjoy talking to you
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: and listening to you on YouTube. I think part of
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: that is because of the fact that your religion, right
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: of your religious I think it's cross training. I think
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, it's like if you lift
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: weights for jiu jitsu, it makes you stronger, it'll make
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: you jiu jitsu better as long as you keep training.
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: I think your discipline from your religion has there's psychological
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: benefits to it right now, totally benefits to it. It's
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 1: a real I totally get all that.
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: I guess the point is that we're different people, so
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 3: there are certain activity in which I engage that you
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 3: probably think, well, that's I wouldn't do.
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 2: That's kind of dumb, and that's okay.
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: But I wouldn't. Though I would, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do it. I don't want to
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 1: wear Yamaica, And I get it. I understand why you
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: Hard to keep it on your head and fluid.
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 1: What would bal dudes do? They put a piece of
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 1: double stick tape there not much you can not allowed.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: To, No, you can, you totally can. But it seems
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: painful and uncomfortable.
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the point is that in living in a society,
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 3: we all are constantly disapproving of each other. Right, politics
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 3: is just us disapproving of each other all the time,
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 3: And so long as we're not forcing that on anybody else,
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 3: I really don't see the problem, and I think everybody
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 3: should sort of get over it. Like, if I don't
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 3: approve of your personal behavior, welcome to the club. I
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 3: disapprove of ninety nine percent of people's personal behavior, including
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 3: my own half the time.
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 1: Do you how often do you debate people on the
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: merits of religion or the merits of your belief system?
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 3: You know, not not super frequently, but not infrequently. I mean,
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 3: like I mentioned that I've I've had this conversation with
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 3: Sam a couple of different times in public.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: Well he's so rabid as an atheist, but yet, you guys,
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: he's more religious.
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 3: Sam is more religious than I am. Sam, Sam's more
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 3: of a religious atheist than I am. Like, I'll admit
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 3: questions about my own religion. Sam is very, very convinced
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 3: of his of his correctness in his viewpoint. Sam, Sam's
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 3: religious dude.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: He's a fascinating god. He is.
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 3: I like him a lot, and Michael Shermer I've had
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 3: on my show to talk about religion and skepticism and
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 3: all that.
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not shy about talking about it.
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 3: I just sometimes I find that it's it's kind of
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 3: a dead end because sometimes it just turns into I
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 3: believe in God, and then the person's like I don't
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 3: believe in God, and it's like, well, okay, fine, now
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 3: now can we talk about the stuff we think are
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 3: the what are the fundamental building blocks upon which you
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 3: can base as society or base of politics, and if
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 3: we agree on those, then you know the God stuff.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 3: I think God is a better base for those fundamental
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 3: policies and belief systems. I think free speech, individualism, democracy.
• 1:56:59
  Speaker 3: These are based on a simple verse in Genesis that
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 3: human beings are made in God's image. I think that
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 3: that's a logical leap. This is the case I've made
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 3: to to Sam. I don't think that you can actually
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 3: get to human beings are of inestimable value from scientific materialism.
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 3: If you believe that human beings are effectively just animals,
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 3: then I don't know why they would be of infinite value,
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 3: nor why I should respect somebody's belief system simply because
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 3: they're human. I don't respect animals, and if we're just
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 3: another animal, there's no there's nothing that necessitates that logical line.
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 3: In fact, for most of human history it was not
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 3: the logical line of thinking. It was if you're a
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 3: member of my tribe, then we like you, and if
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 3: you're not a member of my tribe, then we get
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 3: to kill you.
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: But is that a logical comparison, Like, isn't there a
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: difference between single celled organisms and the way a primate
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: interacts with its environment.
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 3: I mean yes, but I'm not sure why that would
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 3: indicate any sort of greater existential value.
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a greater existential value. But as we
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: were talking about the value of community and the value
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: of having a group of people that you care about,
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: that is, this is a core component of being human.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: This is a it's a core component of this understanding mind.
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: But that's ractional, intelligent interfacing with the universe in a
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: way that no other animal is capable of.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying you can't get to the point where
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 3: Sam agrees with me. I'm saying that I think it's
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 3: less convincing than Sam thinks it is meaning. There's an
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 3: alternative line of thought that says, Okay, you're right, social
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 3: fabric is great. You know where that social fabric is
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 3: particularly awesome among me and my friends. You know, it
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 3: ain't that great those guys over there. Let's go kill
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 3: them and take their shit, right like that. That was
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 3: pretty much how humanity works for a very very long time.
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 3: And the simple and effective idea that the reason that
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 3: human beings are of value is because we are more
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 3: than just our material bodies, that there's something that is
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 3: us that is of inestimable value. That's a religious concept
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 3: and it has a lot of weight. Now, if Sam
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 3: wants to get to the same place and we can
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 3: build a political conversation from there, that's fine. My real
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 3: argument with Sam is Sam and I go down to
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 3: the bottom of the iceberg about ninety percent of the way.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 3: We have the same fundamental value about free speech, diversity
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 3: of opinion, about I think, to mostly an extent, free markets.
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 3: I think that we agree on a lot of these
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 3: fundamental principles. He then says that he gets those from
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 3: pure reason. I have serious questions about whether pure reason
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 3: necessitates those conclusions. He tends to think that those are
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 3: the only conclusions a reasonable person could come to if
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 3: you properly apply a reason. I don't think that's right.
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: What do you think is happening there? What's the mechanism?
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 3: I think that the mechanism is that we are. What
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 3: I said to Sam when we were debating this in
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 3: San Francisco, is it's real weird. He's a materialist, a
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 3: scientific materialist, atheist who is sitting across the stage from me,
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 3: a religious Jew. We agree on ninety five percent of
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 3: our values. So how And his answer was, well, you know,
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 3: here's where I've studied. I've studied Buddhism, I've studied these philosophies,
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 3: and I've studied science, and is it right? I haven't
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 3: studied a lot of those things. But we have the
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 3: same value. So why it seems to me a better
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 3: historical explanation is that we have grown. We grew up
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 3: ten miles from each other in Los Angeles after three
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 3: thousand years of common history of Judeo Christian development balanced
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 3: with reason in the West. Location has something to do
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 3: with this, and that location was rooted in commonality of
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 3: interest and philosophy. So I'm less it's it's there's a
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 3: weird nexus and I don't want to get to kind
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 3: of deep in the weeds here, there's a weird kind
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 3: of nexus on what truth is. Where you've heard Sam
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 3: and Jordan Peterson debate this that inane it's wild right,
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 3: and the truth is I'm closer to Sam than Jordan
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 3: on this. I'm closer to Jordan than Sam when it
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 3: comes to the value of religion, and I'm closer to
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 3: Sam than Jordan when it comes to objective truth. Sam
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 3: believes that there is such a thing as objective truth.
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 3: Jordan tends to be more of a pragmatist. He tends
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 3: to believe that truth is sort of what is useful
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 3: to a certain extent. And I agree with Sam, but
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure how he gets to objective truth from
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 3: a scientific materialist worldview. Why is there objective truth as
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 3: opposed to what you think is what you think being
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 3: evolutionarily beneficial? How do you get from that too, it's
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 3: a universal principle that is objectively true.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: It's a bit of a jump.
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: Well, it depends on what the concept is, right, Like,
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about in terms.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 3: Of I'm talking about true, I'm talking about anything that
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 3: Sam says is true. What makes it true as opposed
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 3: to just evolutionarily beneficial for us to think? So, meaning
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 3: what evolution does is it creates a series of thoughts
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 3: in our mind, presumably if you're a materialist that are
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 3: beneficial to your preservation and promulgation of the species. They're
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 3: not active actually true, so if it's beneficial. This is
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 3: Sam's explanation for the prevalence of religion. For example, He'll say,
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 3: religion isn't true, but evolutionary biology sort of drives people
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 3: toward religion, So you can have group bonds that are
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 3: beyond one hundred and fifty people or whatever. So why
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 3: doesn't that apply to math? Why is it the two
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 3: and two? How do you know that two and two
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 3: actually equals for as opposed to it is evolutionary evolutionarily
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 3: beneficial for you to believe the two plus two equals four.
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 3: So Sam believes there's an objective truth somewhere out there
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 3: that two plus two equals four. I don't know what
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 3: evolution has to do with that sort of stuff.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: So what do you think is happening that he disagrees with?
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 3: So I think that what is happening is that human
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 3: beings were placed in an orderly universe through the processes
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 3: of biology, and have a unique capacity to understand that
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 3: universe because we are made in the image of God.
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 3: This is where I think that the religious viewpoint diverges
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 3: pretty strongly from from Sam's.
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: But you believe in evolution, Yes, you believe that evolution
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: was a process that was created by God to formulate
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: human beings. Yes.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, I mean that's that's a nice thing about
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 3: being religious. You can attribute most most everything to God
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 3: is inact it's nice.
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, it's not that implausible. If there
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: was some sort of a grand plan, there would be
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: no regard for like, oh, we've got to get a
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: rush on this making the evolutionary being. You know, we're
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: gonna you know, the process.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 3: And there's all sorts of fine tuning arguments about how
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 3: implausible it would be for just Adams roaming around the
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 3: universe randomly to end with with human creation. You know,
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 3: the alternative explanation seemed no more no less implausible to me.
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 3: Like the multiple universes theory plausible, but we have no
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 3: way to prove it because we can't get to those
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 3: multiple universes. So how is that testable or the now
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 3: popular theory that we're living in an AI simulation?
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: Not sure? How that's more testable than God? Not sure?
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 2: How's more testable that aliens put us here?
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 2: How's any of this time?
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 3: Why is that more testable or more plausible than the
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 3: idea that there is a force behind that which we
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: see that has mind.
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 1: Well, let's just break this down slowly. There's obviously something
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 1: that's happening. There's obviously something that went from the Big
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 1: Bang to planet Earth in twenty nineteen with cellular communication
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: and satellite dishes, and obviously something happened, something pretty radical.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: Why is it happening? Is it happening because of random
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 1: events that sort of coincide with biology and technology and
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 1: all these things come to fruition to you and I
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: standing across from each other talking on this podcast millions
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: of people. Or is this just how things go? Is
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: things compete constantly try to get better, And then in
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: this gigantic ecosystem of all these things competing and trying
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: to get better, one super successful organism us rises above
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 1: and continues right and continues and by far passes all
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: these other creatures below it and moves we in our estimation.
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you really believe in evolution, you can't
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: think we're done right. It's got to be moving towards
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: some better product. It keeps going until it creates.
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 3: So this is why I say that Sam is more
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 3: religious than I am. I think that there's a plausible
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 3: argument for atheism. I just don't think that there is
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 3: a plausible argument for Sam's moral vision of atheism, meaning
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 3: that what Sam tends to do is like, for example,
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 3: you and I have talked a lot on this particular
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 3: podcast about the value of self betterment and making decisions
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 3: and being responsible for those decisions. How does that work
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 3: in an area where you don't free will? So Sam
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 3: actively says we do not have free will.
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a weird conversation.
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 3: It is a weird conversation, and sort of a self
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 3: defeating one. Sam suggests when it comes to the scientific method,
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 3: that we are using science to find out truths about
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 3: the universe, and we're using reasons. Sam, it's very big
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 3: un reason. I also am a big un reason, But
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know how Sam is defining reason as opposed
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 3: to just an evolutionarily beneficial firing of neurons, meaning that
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 3: that's what we are, right, We're balls of meat wandering
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 3: purposeless through the universe. And then he'll talk about making
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 3: our own meaning or seeking human human prosperity, or flourishing
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 3: as the work he likes to use. These are all
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 3: very active verbs, right. This is an activision of man
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 3: in the universe.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 3: And I'm not sure how that flows from We're a
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 3: ball of meat that evolved from another ball of meat
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 3: that evolves eventually if you go back far enough from
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 3: non balls of meat, without any without any free will,
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 3: without any capacity to choose, I don't know how you
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 3: build a civilization on that.
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: Well, there's two different conversations here. One is determination or
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: determinism rather whether or not you have free will, or
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: whether or not your life and your actions are being
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: dictated by the past, by your biology, by your learned experiences,
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: by external pressures. What is causing this very clear decision
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 1: that you make is this free will? Are you deciding
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get my shit together? Or are all the
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: factors around you pushing you and funneling you into this
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: direction that you it's unavoidable to you, right, and that
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: you are not a product of free will, You're just
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: a product of a lot of different factors, or is
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: it both? Is it that you are the product of
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: your environment and your life experiences and you also have
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 1: free will?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: Right, And I'm in the latter group.
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: I'm in the latter group. I think as well. I
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: think we also experience great benefit from making positive choices
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: and then experiencing like whenever you meet someone who's lost
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of weight, one of the things they have
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: is this fucking tremendous feeling of accomplishment. Yep, you know,
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 1: and like, yeah, I lost one hundred pound, You're like,
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: holy shit, man, one hundred pounds, right, Like, they get
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: this positive feedback from it. There's real good and making
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 1: good choices. And when people decide to get their shit
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: together and make a good choice, they're rewarded. The question
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: is are you doing that because of determinism or are
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: you doing that because of free will? Or are you
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: doing that because of a combination of both of those things?
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 1: And can you fuel that free will purposely through like
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: outwardly seeking things that are motivational or things that are educational,
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 1: things that allow you to kind of remap the way
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: you process reality, right, which can be extremely beneficial and
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: can aid in you taking steps towards exercising your free will.
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 3: Right, Well, and this is why I think that in
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 3: the end and right, but I think that's a pretty
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 3: fundamental question. And I think that that's why, in the end,
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 3: I'm religious, and I'm not sure why Sam isn't, because
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 3: he agrees with the same premises. Right, He'll he'll talk
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 3: about self betterment and decisions that you can make, and
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 3: then he'll write a full book about why free will
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 3: doesn't exist. And I just don't understand how those two
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 3: things can coexist.
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's uh, well, I think it's a thought experiment.
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: First of all. I think the whole determinism thing is
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 1: a thought experiment because there's really no way to determine, right,
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 1: Like you can.
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 3: Have the active though for sure, right, I mean like
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 3: there's just no way to act otherwise.
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: But I guess I know because I absolutely act as
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: if I have free will, right, and we all do,
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: And I get angry at myself when I fuck things up.
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: I don't say, well, it's just determinism, man, right, No,
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 1: that doesn't get you in And but maybe it's determinism
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: that has put me in this position where I'm the
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 1: kind of guy that gets upset if I fuck things up, right,
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, man, I don't know,
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if you know either. That's my
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 1: take on all these things. When people get really rigid
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: with their ideology. Yeah, like, okay, I want to hear
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: it out. I want to hear the whole thing, you know,
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: I want to hear it all.
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 3: I think I think there's a I think there's no
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot that I don't know, but
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 3: I think that there's more plausible and less plausible.
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: I agree. This is where I think people misunderstand you.
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: You have your beliefs, but you're not a guy that
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: imposes them on people. And I think we need to
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: be way more reasonable in terms of the way we
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: address people's beliefs. And I've been guilty of this in
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: the past. I'm sure many people have. Everyone has, but
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 1: I think it's a core component to a healthy community
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 1: has to allow people to have their own beliefs. And
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: you know, who knows, man, Maybe your beliefs on gay
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 1: people will adjust and move over time as you get
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: older and move into a gay neighborhood.
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 3: And again, it's not look, dude, it's not. It's not
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 3: about tolerance.
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: But I understand. I know it's agend I.
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 2: Mean, I don't.
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's a difference between understanding people as
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 3: as whole people and then saying that I don't like
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 3: some of the things that they do, and simply saying
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 3: that making the assumption because I don't like some of
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 3: the things that you do, we can't be friends or
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 3: I disapprove of you as an entire human being, which
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 3: I think is not true.
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: It's a good belief system to if you're straight, and
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: then you go, look, got it locked down, don't need
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: to worry about that. I got a problem. But if
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: you were gay, God damn, there'll be a pain. Yeah.
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 1: I think it would be annoying if you just always
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 1: wanted to bang dudes and everyone's saying.
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 3: No, no. Nobody said nobody religion. Nobody said Religion's easy, man.
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 1: It's what's the value in it? Though? If you're if
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: you're a giant homo, all right, and all you want
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 1: to do is go to gay discos and party your
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 1: ass off, that's what you enjoy. Some people like golf, okay,
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: some people Some people like parasailing, Some dudes just want
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 1: to fucking get it on. Man, you want to dress
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: up like the village people and go have a fucking party.
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: That's why Santa Monica Boulevard is such a hot spot.
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, they find each other.
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 3: You know, do whatever you want to do, honestly, do
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 3: whatever you want to do, because men don't don't ask
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 3: me to think that, you know, don't ask me to
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 3: like put my stamp.
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 2: Of moral approval.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 1: And I understand, but do what you want to do.
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 3: Like it's free country. This should be a free country,
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 3: not just it is a free country. It should be
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 3: a free country. It should not be my job to
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 3: police your personal behavior right right right like you doesn't
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 3: mean I have to improve it on a personal level.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 3: But I'm a jerk if I want to impose my
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 3: belief system on your personal behavior that affects no one else.
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's and I'm a hypocrite if I continue
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 1: to brade you about your your opinion on gay folks.
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 1: What do I give a fuck what your opinion is correct?
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 1: Because you are a reasonable person and you do You're
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 1: very polite, and you're you're even friends with Dave Rubens,
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: So there you go. There's gotta be something there. It's
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: It's a strange thing, though, this this need that people
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 1: have for everyone to think the way they think. And
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: I understand the need to reinforce your own thoughts and
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: and and and and argue them and try to figure
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: out a way to debate that the other person's perspective
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: is incorrect and your perspective is correct. I understand all
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 1: these inclinations that people have, but uh, I I think
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: that they conflate that with bigotry, you know, and I exactly,
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: I don't think you're a bigot. I don't agree with
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: you about gay folks, but that's one of the few,
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 1: the marijuana things. Just I just don't think you have
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: any experience in it, right.
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 3: And as far as as far as disagreeing, I think
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 3: that we probably don't disagree on gay folks. I think
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 3: we disagree on identity and gay activity and all the
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 3: rest of it. I mean as human beings. Yeah, these
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 3: are human beings. I know many gay people who I
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 3: think are significantly better human beings than religious people that
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I think
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 1: there's in a way, I don't have a defined religion,
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: but in a way. I have some pretty rigid ideas
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: that I have in my head about behavior and ethics
• 2:12:47
  Speaker 1: and morals and how you treat people you care about.
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: Those are those are like, they're pretty rigid. And I
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: think one of the things that religion does is it
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 1: allows you to have this sort of ethical framework sort
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 1: of like you know, what is it called scaffolding, like
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 1: when you're building, Like it allows you to develop a
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 1: more disciplined life, and it just shows you this is
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: good and this is bad, and it's clear and there's
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 1: there's most For the most part, it's good. For the
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: most part. These are these are good patterns to follow,
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 1: And I think that I've most certainly sort of adopted
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 1: my own somewhere along the line.
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 2: I think we all do.
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, honestly, a value system, effectively is usually
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 3: a form of religion.
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 1: Right, So when you're saying that Sam is religious, he's
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 1: a religious atheist, you're not a system. Yeah, you're not
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: being inaccurate. There's a lot of folks do that. We
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 1: do develop these sort of principles that we follow. We're
• 2:13:43
  Speaker 1: not just free willy nilly just do whatever we want
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: all day long. No one does that.
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 2: And the reason.
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 3: I say it is sort of facetiously, but I think
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 3: that we all make fundamental assumptions about the nature of
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 3: human life, and we have to recognize that those are assumptions.
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 3: You can't it's it's not reason all the way down. Yeah,
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 3: because that tends to actually become even more inflexible than
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 3: I'm the only reasonable person in the room. My reasons
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 3: are the only ones that matter. So it's my reasons
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 3: all the way down. Acknowledge that we're all making some assumptions,
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 3: and then we can discuss whether those assumptions are worthwhile
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 3: or not.
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing that when it comes with religion, in
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: defining whether or not other people's behavior is sinful, where
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 1: it doesn't involve you, that's where a lot of folks
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: start thinking that maybe these ideas are bigoted.
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 3: Right, But it does involve me, meaning that, well, I'm enjoyed.
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 3: Every sin that I say is a sin is a
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 3: sin that enjoins me. It's just that I may not
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 3: have a desire for that particular sin. In meaning, I'm
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 3: not holding people to a different standard than I hold myself.
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 3: Nor am I saying that I.
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 1: Never sin, right, But you know that you have different
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: biological desires than they do. You kind of acknowledge that. Right.
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: Of course that's true. Of course that's true.
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 3: By the same token, I assume that a gay guy
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 3: doesn't have the desire to strip a thousand women, which
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 3: most stray guys do.
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think, if God has a plan,
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 1: why do you think you create gay people?
• 2:14:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that God creates of all. I
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 3: don't think that I'm in a position to evaluate God's plan.
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 1: I wish I was, if you like God's if I
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: had a guest.
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 3: God creates people with all sorts of different challenges, and
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 3: those challenges span the spectrum.
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not.
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: So God sneaks it up on you. Hey man, I
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 1: know this is going to be fucked up, but you're
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: going to just like dudes, Like forget about women. You're
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: gonna like dudes.
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 2: I am not.
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 1: I want you to ignore that, which I listen to
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 1: my old book.
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know why God gives people drives. I don't
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 3: know why God gives kids cancer. I don't know a
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 3: lot of things about God. Wish I did, it would
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 3: make my life a lot easier.
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 1: So you think that that is a challenge akin to
• 2:15:37
  Speaker 1: any other challenge that a human being might face in
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 1: this life, that the challenge have been a lot.
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 2: Harder, Yeah, a lot more difficult, and a lot more straining,
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 2: and a lot Yeah.
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 1: Of course you think there's value in following that challenge
• 2:15:47
  Speaker 1: and not acting on gay urges. I think there can
• 2:15:50
  Speaker 1: be and having sex with the woman. Plug your nose
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 1: and make a face because you discussed so did you
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 1: create it?
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 3: Did you create a baby out of that? Is that
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 3: baby like a part of your life now? That is
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 3: that is deep and meaningful?
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 1: Maybe?
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 2: What about there are a lot in the past, there
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 2: are a lot of gay guys having kids.
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 1: What about people saying living their truth, I'm living my truth, Benjapiro.
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, as a general rule, living my truth
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 3: is a bunch of crap. Like there's there's living your opinion,
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 3: which is fine, Like live your opinion how you want. Again,
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 3: that gets back to do what you want as long
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 3: as it's not bothering me. Living my truth is a
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 3: different thing.
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 1: That's one of those social media creations like living my
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 1: truth is.
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 2: Such that's just bullshit. I'm sorry.
• 2:16:26
  Speaker 3: Living living my truth is bullshit, Like it's it's there's
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 3: no such thing as your truth. There's the truth and
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 3: then there's your opinion, and we do have for purposes
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 3: of conversation.
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 2: At the very least.
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 3: It's deeply irritating when people say living my truth, because
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 3: then it's like I disagree with you, and then like, well,
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 3: you're you're disavowing me as a human being. No, I
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 3: just disagree, Like you can be you, you can do
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 3: what you want, like you do whatever, man, calm Yeah, Like,
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 3: I'm how did I become the most loosey, goosey libertarian,
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 3: lean back guy in the world in the society?
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 1: How is this possible?
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 2: The most uptyp person I know? How is this a thing?
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 1: Well, you know as well as I do that the
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 1: further you go left, you you you reach the same
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: sort of zelotry that you do when you go all
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 1: the way right. This is correct. You meet these crazy
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 1: people that are just completely connected to their idea of
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: being correct, and they take the most rigid stance on
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: all these issues on the left side or on the
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 1: right side. And it's so goddamn common. It's human behavior.
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 2: It's also incredibly boring. Yes, I mean, there's just nothing
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 2: to discuss.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 1: With with you. Yeah, I agree, And that's one of
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 1: the reasons why it's so disgusting when people mislabel people
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 1: like so it's an article that connected me with Richard Spencer,
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 1: Like what in the fuck? Like that is such a
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: disingenuous thing to do. They know what they're doing. They're
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 1: either trying to get me to react to it and
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: talk about it and get more quick But it's a horseshit.
• 2:17:49
  Speaker 1: Ye like anybody. But if you are locked into that
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 1: far left ideology, as far left as you can go,
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 1: and it's one of the problems with ideology that have
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 1: these extremists is that you believe in a percentage of
• 2:18:05
  Speaker 1: the things these people say, but then they go way
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: too far with it. But you're connected with them. You're
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 1: connected with them because you're a part of that, even
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 1: though you don't have a similar notion.
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 3: Stephen Pinker got browbeaten over suggesting that failure to ask
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 3: questions and give plausible answers gives excuse me credence to
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 3: the all right that if you do a so he
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 3: did a whole speech where he said, listen, there are
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 3: lots of conversations about IQ and race, and they all
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 3: Right loves these conversations because then they suggest wrongly that
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 3: black people are inherently unfit and white people are more fit,
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff, And he says, there
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 3: are great ways to explain how much of IQ is cultural,
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 3: how much can be changed, how much is genetic, how
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 3: much that actually matters in terms of real life outcomes.
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 2: We can do all those things.
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 3: But when you say don't ask the question, stop asking
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 3: the question, then you make people google and the only
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 3: thing that they will google and find are answers that
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 3: are given by people who are actually alt right.
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: And he got ripped as alt right for this.
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, his entire argument was don't allow people to push
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 3: into alt right answers by failing to give them proper
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 3: responses or by throwing them out the window. And then
• 2:19:10
  Speaker 3: people are like, well, you're all right now, because you're
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 3: saying that people should be able to ask questions. Well,
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 3: it's almost like it's just like it's the exact same
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 3: version as people in the religious community, where it's like,
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 3: you know, I used to go to Sunday School and
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 3: then I ask you many questions and they kicked me
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 3: out right. That's that's not how religion is supposed to work.
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 3: That's not how that's not how reason is supposed to work.
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 3: That's not how any of this is supposed to work, right.
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 1: And there's also when when you're investigating anything, any measurable thing,
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 1: when you find a number whatever it is like these
• 2:19:39
  Speaker 1: people like Asian folks are better at mathematics, European folks
• 2:19:43
  Speaker 1: are better at this, Like what is what's the reason
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 1: for that? Like, let's let's find out. Is it cultural?
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 1: Is it biological? Is it something? Can we learn about
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 1: how human beings evolved and adapted? Why are Nigerians so smart?
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: Like there's so many Nigerians that come to this country.
• 2:19:57
  Speaker 1: They thrive, They thrive in business, They're extremely motivated, They're
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 1: extremely disciplined. It's it's like almost like Korean folks. Why
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 1: do Koreans? Like why are they so hard working? Why
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 1: are they strived? And obviously these are big generalizations, but
• 2:20:12
  Speaker 1: what is it about Italians? What makes them wear gold
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 1: chains and love mafia movies? Like?
• 2:20:17
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 1: Those are my people? The What the fuck? Why they
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 1: all talk like that? Like what is that? What causes
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 1: any sort of ethnic group to turn out the way
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 1: they turned out? What and hire so many European Jews
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 1: Nobel Prize winners? What the fuck? Is going on over there?
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 3: And also like what is the impact of the measurable
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 3: on how we live our lives? Like how much should
• 2:20:38
  Speaker 3: this stuff matter?
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 1: Is this?
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 3: Is this a result of discrimination or is this a
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 3: result of something else? Is it true that when you
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 3: group any group of people together racially or non racially,
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 3: there will be disparities between those two groups of people.
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 3: This is just true statistically, Like, but not asking those
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 3: questions and then saying shut down the questions, what that
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 3: actually does? It leads people to only get the answers
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 3: to the questions from the people who don't know what
• 2:20:58
  Speaker 3: they're talking about in many cases, and who are giving convenient,
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 3: easy and self flattering answers about the nature of themselves.
• 2:21:04
  Speaker 1: The fear is it being used by racists to reinforce
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 1: their positions, right, But what you find out is that
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 1: they'll superior race.
• 2:21:11
  Speaker 2: Right, they'll do and they'll do that anyway.
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 3: Like one of the one of the funniest things about
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 3: white supremacist is they're so fucking stupid. Part of the language, like,
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 3: the white supremacists are invariably not the Nobel Prize winners.
• 2:21:23
  Speaker 3: It's you go to a white supremacist compound, you're not
• 2:21:25
  Speaker 3: looking at a bunch of people who are curing cancer
• 2:21:28
  Speaker 3: like these people piss me off, and this is now,
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 3: and I'll say all that won't matter the media' label
• 2:21:32
  Speaker 3: me all right tomorrow, because.
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 1: That's the whey this goes well, the disingenuous media that's
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 1: being less and less taken seriously, taken less and less seriously.
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 1: It's it seems to me that that trend, which is
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 1: a common trend that's existed for the last few years,
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 1: of these clickbaity bullshit articles and mislabeling people, it's going
• 2:21:49
  Speaker 1: to go away because your your your perspective is not
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 1: going to be appreciated. It's not going to be respected
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 1: if you if you're obviously making disingenuous statements like that.
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: And I think we're in this weird position where it's
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 1: very difficult to find real journalism and real objective takes
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 1: on things that aren't flavored by their ideology, and everybody's
• 2:22:10
  Speaker 1: trying to shape everybody, and they feel like it's their obligation.
• 2:22:13
  Speaker 1: They feel there's many people that write things that feel
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 1: like it's their obligation to change your perspective on national
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 1: subjects and things that are important to us. It's not
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: their obligation to just report what's going on, but also
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 1: their obligation to flavor things in a way that'll make
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: one side look favorable to the other.
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm very much in favor of journalists revealing their biases.
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 3: I think that the greatest line media is that objective
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 3: journalism is a thing. So I'm conservative. On to go
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 3: to my site, you'll get anervative spin on the news.
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 3: That's the way it's going to work. And guess what,
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 3: See Ann's liberal and they are going to give you
• 2:22:44
  Speaker 3: the liberal spin on the news. And that's just the
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 3: way this is going to work.
• 2:22:46
  Speaker 1: Did you see the video when the Mueller report came out?
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 1: They look like somebody got killed. Oh my god, it's crazy.
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 1: Got happy? Yeah, exactly. Shouldn't you be happy if if
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: you guys believed in Muller. Everybody was like, Mueller is
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: the fucking man. He's going to go get Trump. This
• 2:23:00
  Speaker 1: guy is methodical. He's precise people's.
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 2: Vote of candles with his face on them that they
• 2:23:06
  Speaker 2: could like burn.
• 2:23:07
  Speaker 1: They were pumped.
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then he came out and he was like, well,
• 2:23:10
  Speaker 3: no collusion. Everybody's like, well, I guess that now to
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 3: cover up it's like, what, wait a minute, Yeah, maybe
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 3: maybe the narrative has maybe the narrative has has has
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 3: trumped the actual job you were supposed to do.
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 1: Guys, Well, it's just so many people were so convinced,
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 1: and there were so many people that were making statements that,
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 1: in retrospect are probably like you could probably. I mean,
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say I'm not a litigious person,
• 2:23:39
  Speaker 1: but if I was a guy like Donald Trump, oh man, Yeah,
• 2:23:42
  Speaker 1: there's so many people to sue. It was.
• 2:23:44
  Speaker 2: It was amazing.
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, I remember I was on Bill Maher's show
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 3: and we were supposed to talk about free speech stuff,
• 2:23:48
  Speaker 3: and like five minutes before and he's like, let's talk
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 3: about Russia. His producer him, and let's talk about Russia.
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, find So we get on
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 3: the prod. Yeah, this is like right before they switch.
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 1: The for your TV shows, So they just tell you
• 2:23:59
  Speaker 1: what you have to talk. I don't know, it's a
• 2:24:00
  Speaker 1: guy comes in with a clipboard. Yeah, it was.
• 2:24:03
  Speaker 2: It was a little bit. It was a little bit strange.
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 3: And we get on stage and he's talking about Trumprushia collusion,
• 2:24:08
  Speaker 3: and I said what I've always said, which is I'll
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 3: wait for the evidence to come out, and then I
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 3: will make a decision as to whether Trumprushia collusion was
• 2:24:14
  Speaker 3: a thing. And Bill Mahers, I know, and Bill Maher goes,
• 2:24:17
  Speaker 3: you don't you don't believe it was a thing, And
• 2:24:19
  Speaker 3: I was like, well, I don't see any evidence yet
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 3: that it was a thing, Like I see some evidence
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 3: of attempts to collude, like don Junior, I see some
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 3: attempts of people trying to get information, but I don't
• 2:24:26
  Speaker 3: see evidence of like actual legal collusion. And why don't
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 3: we just wait? Like you guys keep wanting Muller to
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 3: give it, like, let's just wait on it. And Mark
• 2:24:34
  Speaker 3: could not believe that this was my perspective, right, It
• 2:24:38
  Speaker 3: was like it was like shocking to him. Why should
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 3: Why should the perspective I'm waiting for more evidence be
• 2:24:42
  Speaker 3: shocking to anyone when it is obvious the evidence is
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 3: not out, Like why why is that in any way controversial?
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 2: It's it's bewildering to me.
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: Well, it's because people have this need to let everyone
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 1: know that they're on the right side, and they want
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 1: you to know that they do believe in the collusion.
• 2:24:59
  Speaker 1: If you disagree with that, for whatever reason, you must
• 2:25:03
  Speaker 1: either be a right wing person, a Trump supporter, someone
• 2:25:06
  Speaker 1: who's in denial, someone who doesn't look at the evidence,
• 2:25:09
  Speaker 1: And you're a part of the problem. But the real
• 2:25:11
  Speaker 1: problem was jumping at conclusions. There obviously seemed to be
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: some attempts. There's obviously some fuckery with that IRA company,
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 1: that the Internet research agency that is responsible for millions
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 1: of interactions with people online where they pretended to be
• 2:25:27
  Speaker 1: different supporters. They caused conflict, like constant conflict in regards
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 1: to political opinion. And that's all real. That was coordinated
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 1: effort to try to change people's opinions. But how much
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 1: of that had to do with Donald Trump? How much
• 2:25:40
  Speaker 1: did he ask for? You got no evidence.
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 3: Also, I was always bewildered by this theory, Like did
• 2:25:45
  Speaker 3: you watch that campaign? That was not the most well
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 3: coordinate campaign.
• 2:25:49
  Speaker 1: It was chaos.
• 2:25:49
  Speaker 2: It was chaos.
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 3: I mean I knew everybody who was in the campaign,
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 3: like it was a it was a shit show. And
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 3: the idea that they're sitting there, but when the mask
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 3: comes off at night, they called Vladimir Putin and they
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 3: put together a point by point plan on how they're
• 2:26:02
  Speaker 3: going to swing this particular precinct in rural in rural Michigan,
• 2:26:07
  Speaker 3: it's like.
• 2:26:07
  Speaker 1: What are you are you guys high?
• 2:26:09
  Speaker 2: Like what are you talking about?
• 2:26:11
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 2:26:11
  Speaker 3: What?
• 2:26:12
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 3: If you could attribute this to anything, here's a good
• 2:26:15
  Speaker 3: rule of thumb for politics. Attribute everything to stupidity unless
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 3: you can prove malice the real problem.
• 2:26:22
  Speaker 1: And this is something that is very similar to what
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier. When you say something and
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 1: you say it over and over and over again, and
• 2:26:32
  Speaker 1: you say it with such conviction and it becomes a
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 1: giant part of your news narrative, and then that's something
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 1: turns out to be horseshit. Yep, you just massively empowered Trump.
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 1: That's exactly right.
• 2:26:44
  Speaker 3: I said for a long time that you know, I'm
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 3: not a big fan of Trump's fake news shtick because
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 3: I think he applies it too broadly. I think that
• 2:26:49
  Speaker 3: whenever there's a bad piece of news, he's like fake news,
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 3: and it's like, well, sometimes yes and sometimes no. But
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 3: now that you just blew a two year narrative where
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 3: he was clearly in Putin's pocket, how many people you
• 2:26:59
  Speaker 3: think it'll listen to the nuanced view of fake news now?
• 2:27:01
  Speaker 3: And how many people do you think are going to
• 2:27:03
  Speaker 3: actually believe Trump when he says that a bad piece
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 3: of news is legitimately a fake piece of news.
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it empowers him in a spectacular manner. They made
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 1: a giant mistake.
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and they blew that. They blew this one
• 2:27:14
  Speaker 2: in spectacular.
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 1: Fasts and people are still hanging in there with all
• 2:27:18
  Speaker 1: they had to do.
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 2: This is true for so many people right now. All
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 2: you have to do is not be crazy.
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 1: Just stop it. It was talking about the possibility that
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 1: Trump has been a Russian asset since like nineteen eighty
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: seven or something. Who was that?
• 2:27:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, Andrew McCabe, the former FBI director, was asked
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 3: whether Trump was legitimately a Russian asset, and he's like,
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It's like you're using the power of
• 2:27:37
  Speaker 3: the institution you used to run to spread this nonsense.
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 3: And you got that from John Brennan, you got it
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 3: from James Clapper. These are all former heads of the
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 3: intelligence agencies. It just makes me think the intelligence agencies
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 3: need to be wildly curved back if these were the
• 2:27:49
  Speaker 3: heads of them. I mean, if like the heads of
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 3: the intelligence agencies are using their platform to proclaim that
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 3: they have inside information about Trump that turns out to
• 2:27:56
  Speaker 3: be utter nonsense. I'm not sure these people should have
• 2:27:59
  Speaker 3: that much power.
• 2:28:00
  Speaker 1: Is that what he's saying, or is he saying he
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't know.
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 2: He didn't say I don't know. He was saying, like
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 2: I have.
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 3: Basically, I expect that Mueller is going to indict as
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 3: a former intelligence professional. I expect that. Yeah, there's a
• 2:28:12
  Speaker 3: lot of that. It was ugly Adam Schiff intell him
• 2:28:15
  Speaker 3: that he doing the same thing.
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 1: It's crazy now because like what do they do now?
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 1: Like how do they rebound from this? If this is
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 1: something that's just say once, this is something you said
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 1: for two years. You've seen the compilation videos.
• 2:28:26
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they're amazing.
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 1: They've done him to rap music and they're like they
• 2:28:30
  Speaker 1: put a beat behind it. Have you seen it? No,
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 1: there's some great ones, some great there's compilations of people
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 1: saying possible collusion, possible collusion, possible and in this music
• 2:28:42
  Speaker 1: that goes with it, and they just cut to possible
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 1: collusion with the Russians. Possible Russian collusion, Yeah, possible Russian collusion.
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 2: It's yeah, they blew it in a major way.
• 2:28:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's plenty of shit to complain about.
• 2:28:53
  Speaker 1: You didn't have to go with that, Like the idea
• 2:28:55
  Speaker 1: was that he was a trade.
• 2:28:56
  Speaker 3: He's a target rich environment and you decided to go
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 3: to he's a Russian trader, like like it's no way
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 3: out or something. And Kevin Costner is the last scene.
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 1: What what in the way he could have ever beaten Hillary?
• 2:29:06
  Speaker 2: Sorry, don't mean to check my to get out of here, Matt,
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 2: I do a little bit.
• 2:29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah right now, Like I want to ask you one more.
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 2: Question, one more question.
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 1: What do you think about this Chelsea Manning situation? Because
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what happened other than she's in
• 2:29:20
  Speaker 1: contempt of court and so they've got her in solitary confinement.
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 1: Now this is about testifying against humanity.
• 2:29:27
  Speaker 2: I'll be honest.
• 2:29:27
  Speaker 3: I have been following it that closely. I mean, my
• 2:29:29
  Speaker 3: understanding is that Chelsea Manning. Who Okay, so here's where.
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 2: We get comes.
• 2:29:34
  Speaker 1: Do you call her Bradley?
• 2:29:35
  Speaker 3: No?
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 2: He changed he changed his name to Chelsea. He is
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 2: a biological male.
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 1: Misgendering. Are you dead naming as well? Don't know?
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 2: No, I don't. I don't dead name.
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 3: But unless we were talking about when he committed his crimes,
• 2:29:48
  Speaker 3: at which point he was actually Bradley as opposed to Chelsea. Right, So,
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 3: if we're talking about who was convicted that was a
• 2:29:53
  Speaker 3: male named Bradley Manning.
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 1: Did you say you're talking about the formerly known as Bradley.
• 2:29:57
  Speaker 3: If we're talking about the human being who's currently in jail,
• 2:29:59
  Speaker 3: that as a male who is currently known as Chelsea.
• 2:30:02
  Speaker 3: So so my understanding is that bradle is that Chelsea
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 3: Manning is a refused to hands over information that he
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 3: was legally bound to handover about Wiki leaks, and now
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 3: they were complaining that he's being held in solitary but
• 2:30:17
  Speaker 3: that's not true apparently, and that he's being mistreated. I
• 2:30:21
  Speaker 3: do find it weird that the same people who are
• 2:30:22
  Speaker 3: complaining about Donald Trump coordinating with wiki leaks are very
• 2:30:25
  Speaker 3: upset about Chelsea Manning going to jail for coordinating with
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 3: wiki leaks. You're gonna need to pick one or the others.
• 2:30:30
  Speaker 3: Wiki Leak's bad or is wiki Leak's not bad?
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah? What is wiki leaks? It's only dependent upon whether
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 1: or not they're supporting the narrative that you want.
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 3: That's exactly right, and Wiki leaks was very good, exactly
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 3: it was right and left by the way, like there
• 2:30:43
  Speaker 3: are people on the right, words like Julian Nossange is
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 3: the worst, and then twenty sixteen happened, like Julian Assange.
• 2:30:48
  Speaker 3: Now there's a person I can really talk to. It's like, well,
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 3: now I'm pretty sure Julian Nossange is a WikiLeaks good
• 2:30:55
  Speaker 3: information suggests they are Russian front group, and take make
• 2:30:58
  Speaker 3: of that what you will.
• 2:30:59
  Speaker 1: End of Still, do you think that they became a
• 2:31:02
  Speaker 1: Russian front group to try to stay operative and stay
• 2:31:05
  Speaker 1: safe because they were obviously being attacked by the United
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 1: States government and in danger being shut down, and then
• 2:31:11
  Speaker 1: they've I mean, he's I.
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 2: Really don't know enough about Wiki leaks to really get
• 2:31:15
  Speaker 2: into it.
• 2:31:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know historical, but I know that he's been
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 1: trapped in that embassy for since twenty twelve.
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I hope that he's got some video
• 2:31:23
  Speaker 2: games or something in there.
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 1: Fuck man, he's been in there for like seven years now, right,
• 2:31:27
  Speaker 1: it's a cool time. That is a long time. It
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: can't go outside, no sunlight. Pamela Anderson visits every now
• 2:31:33
  Speaker 1: and then. He's fucked, man. I mean, it's it's a
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 1: terrible place to be and I don't know if it's
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 1: better than prison, because it's like the stress of him,
• 2:31:41
  Speaker 1: never knowing when they're going to come knock down the
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 1: door and pull him out of there. I was like,
• 2:31:45
  Speaker 1: how well does that guy sleep? Yeah? Seven years in
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 1: that embassy.
• 2:31:49
  Speaker 2: It can't be great. Can't be great.
• 2:31:50
  Speaker 1: It's got to be awful. They took his internet away, right.
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 2: I think they did.
• 2:31:53
  Speaker 3: That's fine, Although, to be fair, Wiki leaks was releasing
• 2:31:56
  Speaker 3: information on specific American soldiers in lines of combating.
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, they didn't redact any of the names. That was
• 2:32:02
  Speaker 1: the problem.
• 2:32:03
  Speaker 2: That's why people were pissed.
• 2:32:04
  Speaker 3: Really, yes, because the original dump from Chelsea Manning was
• 2:32:07
  Speaker 3: that he dumped all the information to wiki leaks, including
• 2:32:09
  Speaker 3: the stuff that was.
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 1: Unredacted, and Ricky Leaks just released it.
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the claim. That was the claim. Anyway.
• 2:32:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's accurate because I had.
• 2:32:17
  Speaker 3: If you've find differently than let me know, because I'll
• 2:32:19
  Speaker 3: be happy to correct always.
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm sure you would. I just don't
• 2:32:22
  Speaker 1: know if that is. I don't know. I don't have
• 2:32:24
  Speaker 1: the information front of me. Do you want to check? No,
• 2:32:26
  Speaker 1: I'll take too much time, that'll do folks. You're gonna
• 2:32:30
  Speaker 1: have to google this one. But so when one of
• 2:32:35
  Speaker 1: the things that. I was thinking when Trump got into office,
• 2:32:37
  Speaker 1: will this drain that swamp? Shit? I was like, I
• 2:32:39
  Speaker 1: wonder if Trump would be a Wiki leak supporter. I
• 2:32:42
  Speaker 1: wonder if Trump would be.
• 2:32:43
  Speaker 2: Happy depends if it helped him.
• 2:32:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, right right? Or even at snowed in as well,
• 2:32:49
  Speaker 1: wondering about that.
• 2:32:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's same sort of thing. I mean, unfortunately,
• 2:32:52
  Speaker 3: politics very often has little to do with principle and
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 3: everything to do with convenience.
• 2:32:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if it's helpful, sure, if not a guy
• 2:32:58
  Speaker 1: like him who's always anti deep state and talking about
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 1: the these I mean, he's I do have extremely critical yes,
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 1: but I.
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 3: Do I have a feeling that once you actually sit
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 3: in the big seed, I think that tends to change.
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 3: Remember Obama was too, and then five minutes later, who's
• 2:33:12
  Speaker 3: drone in?
• 2:33:12
  Speaker 1: People? Well, listen, I know you got to get out
• 2:33:18
  Speaker 1: of here. So let's just wrap this up. Tell people
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 1: about your book.
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can check out my book, The Right
• 2:33:22
  Speaker 3: Side of History. He talked about a lot of the
• 2:33:23
  Speaker 3: sort of deeper issues. We were talking about Judeo Christian
• 2:33:25
  Speaker 3: values and reason and sort of the it's it's a
• 2:33:28
  Speaker 3: kind of short form philosophical history of the West from
• 2:33:31
  Speaker 3: Sinai through Greece and talking about all the major Enlightenment philosophers.
• 2:33:35
  Speaker 3: Some of the things we talked about on the show
• 2:33:36
  Speaker 3: are in the book. It's number one best seller on
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 3: the New York Times Nonfiction list at least at the moment.
• 2:33:40
  Speaker 1: Congratulations man, that's awesome.
• 2:33:42
  Speaker 2: That's really pretty spectasic, pretty excitingly.
• 2:33:44
  Speaker 1: Your show also, Ben Spiro Show. You can get the
• 2:33:47
  Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro Show on iTunes, you can get it on YouTube.
• 2:33:50
  Speaker 1: Your Sunday review, which I did once.
• 2:33:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Sunday Special, Aday Special again.
• 2:33:55
  Speaker 1: To thank you, thanks for being here and your books
• 2:33:58
  Speaker 1: available on Amazon everywhere places. Yay, Ben Shapier. Ladies and gentlemen,
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 1: that was great.