Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / David Drake: Why Knowing Your Story Doesn’t Change It — Narrative Coaching, Agency & Change

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David Drake: Why Knowing Your Story Doesn’t Change It — Narrative Coaching, Agency & Change · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm your host, Paige Williams. Come along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence. I'm learning from 100 thinkers, creators, researchers, coaches, people whose lives have been shaped by profound change. And together we're exploring a question at the center of humanity. And that question is: how malleable are the stories that we live by? And what does it take to change one? Across these conversations, we're examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity, and the human capacities that allow us to recognize, question, revise, and live beyond those. What I learned through this story will help shape the field of narrative intelligence and the foundational book that I'm writing about it. This is 100 Stories. Let me tell you, today is a special day because we are interviewing David Drake. 30-year veteran and creator really of narrative coaching. I'm so excited for you to learn what I learned from David. Here we go. Today we are speaking with David Drake. He is the founder of the Moment Institute. He is an advisor. He coaches coaches, and he has been deep in narrative coaching for 30 years. And he is an author and has become a friend and mentor of mine in the last several months. David Drake: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: And I'm just so glad to get to dig into narrative intelligence with you, the expert. Thank you for being here, David. I really appreciate it. David Drake: Most welcome, thanks Paige. Paige Williams: Before we started recording, you were talking about training some coaches at ICF Italy. And David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: a guy said, my God, we have to start a revolution. So what did you say that inspired him to say that to you? David Drake: I've developed four bodies of work, but there's something about the current one around the five maturities that I'm f I'm finding a voice I haven't f had really since the very early days of narrative coaching. It's crisp, it's direct, it's from the and somehow it's just speaking to people. Even we have a number of younger coaches who were trying to find their way, and they're like, this was like way better than the path that they put us on. And I think it's like, you know, like everywhere else in the world and other aspects of our life, much of the infrastructure that we built our lives around is crumbling or under duress or under attack. and so a lot of the traditional paths of join an association and do all these things and follow the rules and it just doesn't really cut it now. And people, you know, this used to be whispers of people coming up to me at conferences privately, and now it's just full on people are like just out. They like we need something different. And and there's something about the way I've talked about this for a long time that now feels like it's even more timely. And Even in this relatively moderate group, there was just a lot of they got it right away. We we need something else that we don't have. And a lot of coaching is sort of stuck in this sort of nostalgic haze from 30 years ago. And the world in which coaching was born is not the world we're in now, and they want something else. Paige Williams: Tell me a little bit about the five maturities and what that something else is. David Drake: it started with a r sort of railing against competency models, which is what most associations do in many professions, not just in coaching. Competency models are great for beginners. Like if you're learning how to cook new Italian food for the first time or learn yoga for the first time, you need to understand the basics of kind of what includes and what it takes and how to do some elementary things. But a master of a craft like coaching or painting or soccer is not an advanced novice. It's a completely different category of person. And you can't scale competency models, really. I mean, and so I realized that what we need more now is more mature human beings. And so I developed a three-dimensional development model. So we usually think of vertical and horizontal development. ones I develop myself, I develop skills, but the third piece was the depth dimension was mobility. Can I apply who I am and what I know in real time with what my environment is asking of me? And so all my work is built built this way. And for me, what's coming is you need to have enough coherence so that when you describe yourself to somebody, they know what that is. Right now? And so but as part of that we're being my wish is that people right now I observe people are s they're stuck in a box. I have to only work in this box called coaching. The problem is clients' worlds and issues are far beyond that box now. And so a lot of coaches feel really inadequate because they're stuck in this box. So I want to get them out of the box, standing top of the box, and what can you see now? And my wish for them is that they can bring all of who they are and all of what they know and all of what they can do to the client's conversation. And because our fundamental point of coaching is not coaching, it's service to another human being who's trying to accomplish something or achieve something or become something. And so for me, I feel like there's so much giftedness in people drawn to coaching that's hampered because of the way the sort of industrial mindset and the traditional players, the big players, still want to make you perform. And so I want to create a path for where people are free to act as a guide. And that can take many, many forms, depending on what the person needs most right now. Paige Williams: What did you see that shifted thirty years of narrative coaching into this new model? What was the aha moment? David Drake: So I've been so well I mean I've believed this since I started. So there's nothing new about the I've just now much better language and so we've created a developmental model that has five there's five maturities, each of which is based and supports one mastery and each of which supports one mob mobility. But I think, you know, Mike, the cur when I think back to the very first presentation which I did in Australia on narrative coaching, people were blown away because it just was unlike anything they'd ever seen before. And I knew that I had something when, you know, I was nervous. I was a foreigner. I've my first time there and doing a presentation like this. I'd come to a research conference, but never shown my work. And I got some brave young woman to come up and be coached me by me. I never had coached, I mean, I had just great created this work. I had never done it in public like this before. And we had this extraordinary experience. And the first reaction people had, well, that's not coaching. And I said, and your point is what? I don't care. I turned to the woman. Was this an important and satisfying experience for you? This was amazing. How did you do that? How did you know that about me? Right? What was that? And so we ended up and and already they were in this box. I can only see what's happening here. But in reality, what was happening was all of here, which is where the client was. And then and then that c coupled with a longstanding Study of things like Taoism and Jungian psychology, where and th and and lots of time in nature, when I realized that most coaches are trapped in Western paradigms of the individual and the self, and I have to go do these things to you or with you. And I realized that most of what we're doing is helping people be present to reality more fully than they could otherwise. Everything is in the moment. Everything is around what is this moment asking of this person? And that requires attention, it requires courage, requires freedom to learn and experiment. And so I'm only there to help a client notice what's happening, step into the invitations, and have the courage to go try something. And this woman that day, so she had to confront something quite challenging in her life. And she said, when I was we were debriefing, she said, it was this really interesting blend where I felt so seen and cared for. And at the same time confronted with a truth that was there in my story. I could see it now, but I wasn't aware that that was true for me until he asked me to tell him that story. And then he and he mirrored back to me what he was noticing as I was telling the story and helped me find that in myself and recognize how that felt and recognize what that meant. And all of this is like in one minute, right? And and people were waiting for the coaching, and I said the coaching's already happened. It you just saw it. They're like, but you didn't do anything. And I said, coaching's not doing things, right? Coaching is a creating container for an experience that somebody wants to have or needs to have to move forward on what's important to them. And and often when I'm coaching, I don't talk very much. Because that's not the point. Paige Williams: Talk about the difference between coaching and narrative coaching. David Drake: in the traditional sort of language, many coaches are taught you have to set an agenda for the session. I don't, because most people have no idea what they're really doing there. Even if they have a problem they're bringing, they don't know what really what the work is going to be until we start. So I don't want to waste my time on an agenda. I want to make them feel welcome and safe. and then we have to lead people on a process that we've designed for them as their coach. And we will help them set goals and make plans, which is a very hyper-rational, hyper-logical way of approaching things, and sometimes it can be quite helpful. But my observation is that it ends up being for many coaches a sort of subtle permission to basically lead the conversation. And so where where narrative coaching came from was important as as well from my time. In my twenties when I was a a a grief counselor and a hospital chaplain. I was too young to do those jobs in hindsight, but that was part of my degree and so that's what I did. But I realized that because my family had never talked about grief and we even though we had some big griefs when I was young, and I had some griefs for myself when I was quite young, That I didn't might not understand grief at all. So I took all these, read all these books and went to these programs and got certified and did all these things. And then I realized in the course of a couple of really poignant exchanges that I actually knew nothing about grieving. I knew a lot about grief as a topic or as content or as process, but nothing about the felt experience of deep loss. Because I never had allowed myself to go there because I didn't learn how to do that. And so in narrative coaching, so I brought that into narrative coaching, and so we we there's sort of three primary ways in which we work with story. So one is we try to help the client become more aware of themselves as they're telling their story. So we do a lot of pausing. So just stop for a second. What are you noticing right now in yourself? Or I might say, you know this hand seems very active in your storytelling. What's this hand doing? If I were to interview this hand, what would it tell us about your story? And or you always look over here. Or when you bring up this when this character comes back into your story, you turn white as a ghost. Like, what is that? And they're like, what do you mean? I said, and sometimes I'll even take a picture and I'll show them. But what? so we tell them their their body is their body is repres is conveying what some of the deeper levels of what's actually happening in the story as the way it was because of how it was formed and so we do that. We give them we we have a sort of a narrative structure which is built around a four axe story model but also around a rite of passage. So the story is as they're moving through the story work they're actually the story is changing and so are they. And so we sort of help them understand kind of where they are and the forming their story and working with the story and looking at how they might change the story even. And then the third thing we do is that we often then pull out key characters, which because all the characters have a purpose. and we use key characters which often represent things like shadow or blind spots or discomforts or they're the pieces that the unconscious sneaks into the story, often to the surprise of the teller. And and so then we bring that character into the room and then we do a lot of somatic physical work. around the story. We bring it to life. We reconstellate the story in in in in the moment and and improvise interactions with the characters, interactions with the space, experimenting with and I'll give you just a really simple example of that. It's really quite out there in some ways, but quite illustrative. So I used to do threshold retreats, which were all about helping people find and and and live into a new story. There was a woman kind of entering the crone phase of her life, but wasn't quite sure how to do that. And and so and so her threshold was, I need to step into this next age of my life. And so I said, how can we help you with that? She said, I would like all the women in the group to join me at this threshold. Good move. All right, she's already made the first step. And and so then working with her across the threshold and and we're helping her figure out what that means and what the stories that need to be changing and what she's noticing about that. and then she was able to do some pretty amazing work and then was able to step over the threshold and let her just be there and experience that, and then the other women came to support her. And then when we were debriefing the experience, I I said that what made there was a moment at the threshold where something seemed to drop into place for you. Like what happened? And she said, Well, there was a woman that said this, and she and had this sentence that was so powerful for me. I I I just that that's the piece I needed to step into this. And then so she turned and so she she asked the group, like which one of you said that? Because she said, I heard this plain as day. It was just echoing in my ears. And and I could hear it, but I couldn't tell who it was it was. And we asked every single woman. None of them said it. No one actually uttered those words. And yet for her, she heard this as if somebody was standing right next to her and speaking to her. And so when we do narrative work, we reconsolate the story experience and then the field becomes alive with all kinds of things, some of which we bring in and some of which are just there of their own volition. Yeah as a result of what the person is working on. Paige Williams: What do you think of that extra voice she heard? How do you what's the narrative that you tell about that to yourself? David Drake: I I I know this person well and she often struggles with confidence, even though she's an amazingly accomplished person. And I I think there was a voice in her that's been wanting to say that to herself all her life. And what these women did was give her permission and and historically she would turn to them to get approval or support or you know, you you g you got this and What she took from this w when I she was blown away when nobody n they all said none of us said that. No I d none of us heard that at all. And and when sh and then she realized and she looked back to me and she just smiled. She goes, yeah, you did this again. And I said, I didn't do anything. and then other Paige Williams: That's right. David Drake: than hold the space for you. You did all the work here. And so there's and so I had her re repeat it out loud two or three times. And then it was quite moving for her. And I said, I can imagine you've been wanting to say that to yourself all all along. And we even did some later work about how old was she when she realized that for the first time. And then we did a little sort of gestaltish chair work to help her have a conversation with her younger self. yeah. Paige Williams: What you learn about story and narrative growing up that led you into f really finding the path of this field now of narrative coaching? David Drake: you know, I I I now know a lot of things about my past I didn't know when I was younger. like I I had been part of a twin and in utero and things, but mostly it was because I was quiet, shy and bright. and I got a lot of satisfaction out of reading, so I always re read the most books in my class. I between reading and nature and I We I had a very non communicative family in some ways. They didn't really know how to talk to each other about much of anything for different reasons and with different styles and you know, I've made peace with all that, but I realized that I I saw a lot of things and I felt a lot of things and there was no language for that because there was no language I could learn from in my family. My my father was gone at work all the time and my mother was you know doing her best to manage three young boys at a very young age and and so I I was I got caught up in literature. I loved reading and being tr teleported to other worlds and other ways of being, and and I, you know, and then there's other little episodes where I just had a sixth sense of things and I just I could sense things even though I wasn't very confident myself. I could just feel things and I I was very observant. and so I'd be the one we'd be out on a hike and I'd spot the the eagle in a tree, you know, half a mile away, just like that. And so what that what that led to me was I felt like too much of coaching was directive, even with good intent. And you know, it's gotten better over the years, but still I thought it doesn't leave the spaciousness that stories need to breathe. Because stories, if you sort of think of stories as animate objects or animate processes, they have to they have to find their way as well. Like when someone starts a story, we don't know how it's gonna end. And oftentimes it's changes along the way as people realize more things, especially in coaching. And so I realized that my job was to create a safe and generative space where the store could do its work. It has a reason for being there. A client could, there's the thousands of stories a client could choose to tell us. They've chosen this one, told in this way at this time. So there's part of them you call your their psyche, their spirit, their soul. brings things into the story space that even they're often not aware of. I mean, when I reflect back to my clients, they're often surprised. I said that? I said, yes you did. And they and so my job is just to create a structure and some safety and some resources to help them pay attention to what is choosing to arrive here in this story and what's it asking of you. Paige Williams: Tell a little bit in your experience of narrative coaching, when we think about story, does story need to change? Does our perception of the story change, or is the story just serving its purpose by being the person's story? David Drake: Yes. It's Paige Williams: Great. Next question. David Drake: Tick. No, I I I saw I there there there's a story is a compilation and yeah like if you've had a difficult like a traumatic experience in your life, one of the things that makes it difficult is it's not processed by our body through our narrative channels. It's fragmented, which makes it hard to heal. and and but all over like, you know, if you like if every year You reflected on an incident in your life when you were a child that you found difficult. Every year you'd have a different story about it. You'd see more, you'd see new things, you have different perspectives, you maybe have done some of your own work. So you there's forgiveness, or and so a story is just a way for us to remember things that are important to us. And I and I think about a I had a challenging conversation with a friend the other day who had a grand story about something I had done. It was really just I'd forgotten something in my diary. And for her, it activated this whole avalanche of narrative about abandonment and I prioritized my work over her and our friendship and it she went to town. And and I've been, you know, I've mature enough most of the time now where I can just hold space for that. I didn't take it personally. I didn't that's the experience she was wanting needing to have for some reason. And when we kind of things settled some more, I said, you were not angry at what happened, you were angry at the story that you made up about what happened. And I said, if that was what actually was happening on my side, if I hadn't like you know pushed her aside or prioritized my my work over what she needed, of course then she would have might have a right to be but I said something happened between what actually happened and your reaction. And that was your story about what you thought was that all meant, which really wasn't was much more a reflection of past issues for her. And so I look at, you know, we're always trying to help people have a better grasp on realities and what's present to them and recognizing that all stories are fiction. Some are closer to the truth than others, but they're all fiction. They're all malleable. And we tend to perpetuate stories that allow us to remain consistent with how we see ourselves and others. And so if we want to change relationships or change ourselves, we have to work on our stories. But for me, it's important. I mean, I know a lot of people use stories to help like leaders be more convincing or whatever, but I don't look at stories as commodities. They're living processes. And you can capture them in a narration, in an experience, like in a coaching session. But I I I sort of bristle a little bit at, you know, let's work on the story. There's no the story. There is your story right now about this. And there's something about that that's not working for you. And so what can we do with that that might open up some other interpretations, alternative stories, maybe even letting go of that story, maybe moving some of the characters around so you realize it wasn't your fault after all, and all kinds of things become possible. And and I what because we do a lot of somatic work, you can actually watch what's happens to people as they're reworking their story in the in their face and their body posture and their gesturing. And yeah, so I I've even coached people when I've done retreats in other countries who are talking to me in their native language. I have no idea what they're saying and I'm still coaching them. So I'm just watching their body and their face and their gestures. and their tone and I'm just reflecting back and as long as they understand my English questions or reflections, that's all I need. Because I don't need to understand what they're saying. They need to understand what they're saying. And they'll they'll be able to do that better if they can speak in their native tongue. Paige Williams: If you experienced, you know, a trauma, say as a child, do does it require you telling that story in order to heal? David Drake: It depends. so I think of things as traumatizing rather than trauma, because again, there is a traumatic event often. you know, I came this far from being killed in a car wreck when I was in my 30s. So I that I still can feel the truck that ran the stop sign and it hit me right behind my driver's seat. I can still feel that. So it ex i that story exists. But my as my neurosurgeon pointed out, you actually don't remember any of that. Y 'cause your brain actually blacked out. on impact and you've made up a story because you're smart and you understand geometry and you knew where the truck was and where you ended up and so your body filled in all around the actual incident which you you actually have no mental memory of. and so the like I said the difficulty with traumatizing experiences is in order for your system to tolerate it, you have to then fragment it because you can't absorb it all at once. So what I I I worked a lot with a Zen priest when I w worked through one of my big traumas in life, who also did EMDR and a number of other things. And and because I've trained a lot of this myself, I was able to move through that fairly quickly. And so what we find what I found in was a trauma for clients and for myself. is to imagine that there is a whole story there, but we just can't see it all yet and we can't work with it all yet. So we're gonna just take fragments. Like one one frame of a movie. And we're gonna process that and do whatever we need to to kind of accept that, be with that, glean anything we need to from that. And then over time you start to get this sort of grainy image of the actual trauma. And but you now, what it's giving you is a sense of agency and love in a way that I don't have to hold this whole horrible thing. you know I was left by myself to have surgery in the hospital when I was three. I had no idea what was happening. I had no idea if anybody was ever coming back. They didn't come back till the next day. I have very vivid memories of that event. I can replay it right now in my mind. But I don't really know what that meant to me because I was too young to feel it. I just knew it happened. And so we find that with traumatizing experiences, we allow people to approximate and/or things that are difficult for clients to talk about. You know, to give them sort of tastes. of pieces of the story. And then we're gauging like what are they ready for? What's useful for them right now? Where are they on the journey? What feels important to them. And so we're until over time when, which is again why we don't set agendas, because people are finding their way to like, why am I really here? What do I really want to be doing? What is the next step for me? And so the traumatizing work is really helpful because we do the same thing with many people, which is what about your story is wanting our attention? What are we being asked to look at right now? Or maybe you're being asked to feel something or experience something or experiment with something. Then it gives you like, no, I now have a deeper glimpse into my story. And so it's the way that we then slowly what happens is you create this like montage that's enough of the actual traumatizing experience, but you now have so much agency, enough agency over it where it never goes away. But no longer traumatizes you as much. Like I can, like if I think about the three or four major traumas in my life, I could relive them and work myself into a mess if I wanted to, but I don't, because it doesn't serve me anymore. But it could. But I also can just go, there that there that's here again. Or this experience I'm having right now is reminding me of that. note to self, be kind right now to myself. and so what we're trying to do is. n rather than saying I've got a I've got a coach in the right way, I've got to help somebody emerge from this conversation, a better equipped author of their own life and their own story. That's my primary mission as a coach. Paige Williams: Why is that the mission? David Drake: Because I'm not the point of coaching. And so I'm just a channel for things that are coming through me, appearing in the session, seem important about the story. It doesn't matter what I think's important. I mean I might share that if they ask, or I might I might venture there if it feels really super important. But again, you know, to for an adult to change is hard work. And we throw the word like transformation around, like it's bubblegum or something. It's like transformation is actually fairly rare, as is mastery is actually fairly rare. But so I I'm much more humble about these things. I'm, you know, most of what our adult clients bring to coaching, they've wrestled with their whole life in some form. There's nothing new about most of it. It's just manifesting in some new environment in an executive suite versus in their room when they're five. But and so I think what what can we do to maybe release some pain, make some new associations, maybe give them a new resource, maybe help them do some healing work. And so they leave the session a bit lighter, a bit more free with the story, like and so oftentimes this is then and then we look at where does this story tend to get activated in your in your current life. And so for example, you've got somebody that was grew up in a household where they pers their story was my parents need me to be perfect. And if I'm not perfect, I'm not safe. Or I'm not acceptable acceptable or not good enough. And so I've got to always be perfect. So we w we can work on some of that, but then I'll say, where does that show up the most in your work? I've got to file this weekly report. I hate it. It takes me like half the day. Cause I it's never gonna it's not good enough. And so then I mean, think like what do you wish your parents had told you when you were young? Sometimes that brings tears to their eyes, but then we find some language. So maybe be f when you sit down on Friday afternoon, could you be postponing it as long as you could, maybe you just come up with one or two things you could tell yourself. and and then I sort of gauge like what kind of persons. So some people like to take kind of a money python approach and be quite sarcastic and ironic. Some people are very loving and caring. Some people are very strong and and organized. Whatever you need to do to tell yourself. So you start from a different story and it doesn't make the perfectionism go away, but it realizes I don't have to be crippled by this. I'm not five anymore. Right. I can make new choices and actually what I write's pretty good and I don't need to worry about it so much. And then what happens and sort of like they do now for people with phobias If you coach somebody on being able to manage that perfectionism around any anything in their life, then they're building a a series of new narratives and new skills, new abilities to self-regulate, new attachment security, all kinds of things. So that as they start moving into other aspects of their leadership or whatever they're doing, they can draw on those resources they built around this one small thing to start at tackling bigger things in their life. And in the end, you know, I've lived long enough now that even the even the notion that we arrive at any of these things is now ludicrous to me. And and so all the all your life you were taught to move towards these destinations of and there are no destinations. There's just increasing awareness and and increasing maturity if you so choose. Paige Williams: You said transformation is rare. David Drake: Yes. Paige Williams: I agree. Can you tell me what it takes to transform a story, transform a narrative, transform a life? David Drake: Yeah, so I would say there are things that there are choices we make that allow parts of our life or our way of being in life to transform. So like when I like I think back to when I was probably 12, maybe grade five, I think, 11 or 12, we I was in a Sunday school class. And I was very shy. I did not talk very much. My friends I meet s kept in touch with over my life tell me I was funny and really super smart and people liked me, but I was very shy and very insecure. And I had this our Sunday school teacher, Mer Mrs. Akita, wonderful woman. she tried to keep trying to get me to sing, but I was a horrible singer, so but she did something one day that changed my life. It transformed my didn't transform me, it tr it transformed the story that I could allow myself to tell myself. When one one day she said, where we have to do this thing in the for the whole church, and I'd like you to represent our class and speak. I'm like, I no, no, I'm not doing that. I protested. And it happened again a few years later in a leadership thing I was at in when I was in high school, same thing. I I've chosen you out of everybody. I want you to speak. Well nobody had ever said it to me. I had no ex- I didn't had no lived experience of that before these kind of episodes. And so it didn't transform me because I'm this I was the same person than the after I did this, but I now the universe in which I could operate, the choices I had were now much larger than they were before. Because somebody believed in me, somebody saw something in me I didn't see in myself. That was so where who I became as a result of this was present the whole time. So I didn't really transform. All that was available from day one. I just didn't believe in it myself. I didn't know how to access it myself. I didn't feel permission or I had no guidance about how to do any of that. So I just didn't do it. And then somebody comes along and says, I see this in you. And I go, well really? I don't see that in myself. And yeah, out of all these kids in this whole room, about 50 people, I want you to represent our this Sunday school. And I said, okay, well apparently there's something about me I'm not aware of or I didn't realize. And then I realized after I did this, wow, people liked this. I might have something to say. sixty years later and here we are talking with you. and so for me, I think you can like transform a story by letting it go. Like so if you think about people in your life that you've been angry at. Maybe they betrayed you or hurt you or did something bad to you. And you can it you know you we all would be justified to stay angry, but we realize at some point in time if we mature, it's not productive because it's actually hurting us and not doing anything to them. and so you transform yourself by saying I what happened was wrong, or whatever word you want to use, but I'm not gonna sacrifice myself anymore or wait for something to magically happen. I'm gonna let this story go. Now it still exists because you can conjure it back up again, but it's not one that you consult consciously or unconsciously as you move through your day. And so for me, what transforms is our Access to ourself, access to capacities in ourself, access to the freedom to choose the stories we want to be guided by. And so, like for example, you and this is where maturity can become so important. So, you know, if you live long enough, you often end up encountering again people that hurt you. Or people that remind you of people that hurt you, or betrayed you, or whatever that was that was difficult. And part of this kind of maturity is to be in their presence. Not that we would choose that, but it happens, right? And so for me, my goal is I'm not going to transform the person. I can't change what happened. But I can help you mature and develop yourself. So you make choices about the impact of those stories on you. And if you're still angry 20 years later at whatever happened, it's probably doing you a great disservice. And it's and I think a lot of what creates pain for adults is things they never got to let go of because no one ever helped them do that. And so I think a lot of people end up moving through their day, moving through their work, moving through their relationships, feeling really burdened with things they could never let go of. And everything, every story that you've got tucked away that we're holding on to is energy that you can't use to achieve and be what you want to be in your life right now. Paige Williams: Mm. So if we can transform our stories we may be able to heal. David Drake: Yes. Paige Williams: When someone has fresh grief. You're coaching them or you're coaching a coach who may have fresh grief. David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: How do you use narrative coaching in that case? Just curious. David Drake: So we we work a lot with the energetic field, the physical field in the work. And the first step in narrative coaching is called situating. And w our only job, as I said, is to welcome the person into the space. It's okay to be here. And we Welcome whatever they bring. We don't try to change anything, we don't try to name anything, we don't try to even understand anything. We just want them to find their way and their ease and being in this. And then at some point we'll draw some attention to things that we've observed and help them to observe themselves, and that will give them some clues about what they actually want to address in the session. So if what somebody's is showing up with is fresh grief. there's really not a lot to say. And so it and so there, and again it goes back to there are portions of large portions of narrative coaching in which I don't talk. Because talking is so s silent silence is not the absence of talking. Silence is the natural ground of all being. Talking is what comes in over silence. And so the silence allows things to settle. allows things to appear, helps people realize everything's okay. And you know, so there's a acknowledgement. So somebody that's in with fresh grief probably needs to be reminded you're it's safe here. There's some scaffolding and I see you, I hear you, I feel you, so that I'm tracking them so they know that that they're in a good space. talking is not very useful because they're not really operating at a s at a cognitive level at the moment. They're in a very deep, somatic, emotional, existential place to which words are not very useful. Matter of fact, they're often often annoying. and I'll and I so I'll just will ask people to talk about their experience. What's it like for you to be in grief? What are you noticing about that? Is there anything about this person or this situation or this thing that any word do any words come to mind or sensations? And you're basically helping them to almost like decorate or animate this space. What's present for you in this? And that sometimes they'll come up with you know just random things that remind them of the person or reminds them of why they were mattered to them or gives them his stories are great in helping people to realize what they feel in ways that they often don't on their own. And so we'll we'll invite things, but if nothing comes, we can still hold space for them. And and yeah and and so I feel like again part of the distinctions of narrative coaching is we don't we don't try to put a lot of artificial focus on trying to get somewhere. And I I find ironically in a true gestalt kind of way, we actually make more progress because we're not trying so hard to get somewhere. And yeah, and so I I think that was one of the things I never really fully appreciated when I learned the learned grief work when I was younger. I just wasn't mature enough. I still wanted to be helpful. And I did too much and then I had a couple of experiences that really helped me change my perspective. Paige Williams: Okay. Thank you for sharing that. When when you talk about narrative release, David Drake: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: what are we least releasing from? Is it the story itself, our identification with it, the behavior it produces, or something else? David Drake: Yes. And so we're we're we just go to the point of contact. So like of those three things, which one feels most present and problematic for the person? and so if I go back to my friend who had the disagreement with, I I sort of reflected back my experience of what was happening. But also didn't get angry, I didn't defend myself, attack her, didn't, you know, didn't get into it. I just let it be. And so I knew my my wish was that she would begin to be present to her own story, and as sort of the point of contact with what was happening, not me or my behavior or whatever, because it beh everything was fine. It was just the story that she ran into like a brick wall. and And so we're trying to, again, we're imagining that the story has voice. Like we're looking at like who's showing up in this story and how's this story being told? And is this a drama or a comedy or a tragedy? Or what is this? And that helps us understand what role we're being asked to play and how the story might be used to help the client get more clarity about what's actually happening for them. And so we're we're working on it could be around their interpretation of what happened, it could be around their memory of what happened, maybe they're conveniently leaving out certain things, it could be looking at their role in the story and is that is is that useful to them or not? you know, oftentimes in the workplace people tell stories about why whatever they're talking about is somebody else's fault. Or somebody else should fix this for them. Or if they were only this way, then it wouldn't be a problem. And so we listen to that, we welcome that. Then we hold up a mirror and say, what does that keep you from seeing? Do you have a sense of how you contributed to this problem? No, I don't. Okay. So this person is not ready to see that yet. So I imagine that we hold in our hand a loving mirror. And so we might need to hold the mirror way back. Cause they and then when they go, crap. I can see this now, then we're moving the mirror closer to them. So they can actually see it with more clarity and more precision about what they might need to address in themselves. And so again, part of what we do in narrative coaching is we're very agile. We can play many roles. I often will make micro when I did a lot more in-person coaching than I do now. I would make dozens of micro movements of my chair. to subtly not they signal but reflect where i sense the energy of the conversation it was going and what they the client's gonna need for me next. and so if someone seemed to me I I was sensing they're on the verge of a realization that probably is gonna lead to tears, I will move my chair like a a half inch or inch closer, very subtly. Why? Because I want to I'm getting ready to lean in for what's coming. Conversely, if a child's if a client has may had some realizations, you sense like I get this now, I can see what I need to do differently, I might just sort of lean back a bit and turn my chair at an angle to unconsciously signal, you've got this. I'm not gonna crowd your space. What do you want to do now? and so we're like almost like narrative choreographers. Yeah. And not that we're controlling, but we're helping people notice what's in motion, where where do they need to go, what needs to happen with the characters in their story, what are they trying to tell them? And and we do a lot of work with chairs and objects and as much as possible everything that we use literally or f figuratively are things in the client's story. We don't bring in external language as much any more than we have to. Yeah. Paige Williams: In doing this narrative intelligence research, David Drake: Mm. Paige Williams: I've identified five capacities that I'm I'm like, okay, there's five, and then I throw in one and say, is this one or is that one? But I'd love for you David Drake: Okay. All right. Paige Williams: to hear and and weigh in on if I'm missing anything or what your thoughts are. David Drake: Okay. Okay. Paige Williams: So recognizing the narrative, operating, seeing it. Discerning what is actually true, which is interesting because you said nothing's true. So okay, discerning what's actually true. David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: Becoming flexible enough to see other interpretations or choosing choose and then choosing your relationship to the narrative. And then enactment of living that choice. Which is so from your experience, what does that framework get right and what's Maybe missing. David Drake: I I I I agree with all of it and as tr it seems true to me as well. I I am I may have missed this, but what is in the back of my mind that might be helpful as well. And so in our in the model we go from situate to search and the first threshold they crossed is all is is separation and they have to leave something behind in order to create space for a new possibility. And so in that, the thing that's missing, could be missing, and maybe it's in there, I just didn't hear it, is that people I find it's quite powerful for them to realize the ways in which their old story has impacted them. So we always start with grounded grounding in reality. Not that there's a reality, but the reality that they've constructed with their story. And because otherwise there's no foundation for the change they want to make. They're gonna be pulled back into the vortex of that old interpretation or the old and though many of those consequences are unconscious to them. They're baked into body posture, withholding, illness, all kinds of things. And so coming to terms with that and recognizing the price we pay to hold on to that story for me creates to liberate them ourselves from that creates the discretionary energy people need to move into a different story. That separation around saying goodbye, letting go, forgiveness, softening, if nothing else. and when and when people go all around the cycle and come back to the beginning again, they go, wow, that used to just really piss me off, or that used to just really bother me. And I noticed that thing again. There's still vestiges of that old story. But again, like and that's why we used I bring in a lot of attachment theory is but I can self-regulate around that now. I can wave as I go by that yeah, there's that thing again. yeah, I remember you. And you served me well. You got me through my childhood, or you got me through this job I hated or whatever. but I don't need you that way anymore. I'm kind of moving on to some other things. Paige Williams: love that, what it cost me. David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: Because if they can recognize that, if we can rec I can recognize that in myself, then I may be able to live a new story or have a new relationship to David Drake: Exactly. Paige Williams: it. David Drake: Exactly. If I pretend it didn't happen or I don't if I don't own the cost then that will always be a sort of a hole hole in my heart or a deficit. Paige Williams: Yeah. That sixth capacity I was thinking of and I was like, this isn't right. I was thinking of it as acceptance, but that that's not right. It's actually what you just identified. It's what did it cost me in letting it go. David Drake: Yeah, and then then out of that comes acceptance. Paige Williams: Right. David Drake: Yeah, you have to pay the price first, I I believe. And I I I don't see that as a negative thing, right? Every every story we form has a purpose. When we're young, that's totally unconscious to us. many of our relational patterns happen before we even were formed or shaped by things before we were even verbal. So of course we don't have stories about them. We just have lived experiences. and so Acceptance is sort of for me it's You know, like when you make a mistake, you say the wrong thing to somebody, I didn't really mean that. And and if you have just a blanket, you know, they forgive you and you know, it's washed over, then you never really do the work. Yeah, but that cost. Yeah, we can make amends and move on, but that there was a cost there. And and sometimes that cost is worthy because it allows us to survive. Right? If I if I had waited for my family of origin. to be what I needed it to be for my own well-being, I would have waited a long time. I and so for me, I had to come to a place of realizing the cost. I mean I I went to lived in five houses and went to four schools by the time I was seven. All by myself. And and you know I and I could make up all kinds of stories about that, as I have across my lifetime. But for me, the acceptance was I understand the I understand the facts of the story now. it doesn't make any less painful or, you know, I wish it were different, but I'm in a much different place. And what really helped me find acceptance was what am I able to do because I went through those experiences? I have great empathy with people. I'm I can manage well on my own if I have to. and there's and then there's also things like it you know, for much of my life I didn't like being told what to do, so I didn't trust people in authority. I've now moved through that, but each of these stories is a is a laboratory for us to what what what am I bringing to this? What am I taking from this? How do I feel about this? What do I need to do with this story in a way that's going to allow me to grow and move on? And so acceptance is a net result of doing whatever needs to be done at that level with the story to allow you to move on in a more whole and mature way. Paige Williams: So Being able to live a news story or change behavior, you know, you make amends for something and the person says, I'll tell you what the amends is. I need you to behave this way from now on. Whatever it might be. actually living from a new story. Do you see that this happens often? What are its limits? What are its barriers? Is this possible? David Drake: it's definitely possible. We see this all the time. I again I go back to the word transformation is way overused in coaching and other places. most of us don't make I mean there are some people, like there's people that you know got over involved in drugs and alcohol when they were young and they become sober, right? So the alcoholic still lives in them, but they've chosen different a different lifestyle now that serves them much better. but most I mean if like if you go to a high school reunion, most people are kind of the same way that you remember them. They don't really change a lot. S some do. Every now and then they have some like circumstance or you know, maybe somebody grew up in a really super poor family, then married somebody who's wealthy and they've got some new things around them that are better or different. But you know, we have these characters that form early in our life. And I look at storywork in some ways as You know, r smoothing out some of the rougher edges, surfacing some things that might have been under a tart for a while, kind of figuring out how to be a bit more mature and masterful about how to use who we are. and so the the aim of all of this work is helping people to notice when there's a mismatch between the story that they're telling themselves. Or other people are telling about them, or they're telling about other people, the stories that are in play and what the person is trying to achieve. If they don't have a narrative foundation for a new behavior, that they're gonna default back in the end to the old behavior. And you know, and so like, and I think professionals often I think it's better now, but more sensitive, but you know, I I remember sitting through these programs around public speaking and you know how to how to communicate more effectively and how to get more of what you want by how you talk with people. And I say, well, that that presumes a sense of privilege and safety that not everybody has. Right? If you got hit when you spoke up, you're probably gonna have a harder time learning how to speak up at work. Not that it can't be done, but and or if you're from a c a class or group of people that are often marginalized or ignored or judged. you can't just say, yeah, I'll just be, you know, you can't just say, sure, I'll just take this training and suddenly everybody everybody will respect me and ask me what I think, right? and so I think there's for me the the beauty of story work and I think this idea of intelligence and wisdom around stories so important because it's not even so much the narrative skills. I think it's more about the wisdom about what about this person's story or storytelling or s or story identity seems present right now that we might want to pay some attention to. And knowing that there's a longer arc of the journey that they're on, how can we be useful to them right now to have them move forward in whether it's healing or skilling or experimenting that would and and and the other thing that's I think appropriate for story work, because stories are are you know are formed in retrospect. And so that's the way they're best explored is in retrospect. and so that's why we ask people to tell me get tell me about a time when. And that becomes because it's a story that and we I'm gonna look at how they're making sense and meaning, what they've taken from this, and how that might apply to what they want to do next. And so we bring the story into the room and we sort of let it come alive and see what we notice about that and how that's playing out in the client's current life, and then exploring with them what do they wish were different about that. Paige Williams: How do you help someone shift a narrative? Like what does it take to actually say, okay, I recognize it, I can see it, I know what the other options of choice are here, but then to actually an act of, I may just do something because I want to do it, not for approval. David Drake: that convenient framing becomes a crutch. And so I I would just create a visceral semantic experience for her. And and I might just get her to I mean if I'd I'd make up something on the spot, but if I would just get her to stand up and I would go stand in front of her and I'd ask her to tell me something that she wants to do with all of her heart. and or something that she hates or anything that creates a dramatic, a strong emotion or a strong taste or wish or And and and I would just reflect back to her what I'm observing coming up for her as she's doing that. And it's a very convenient narrative. Well, I I do these things now because of that because of how my childhood was. But if they're still playing that tape now in however old she is now, then she clearly is still trapped in that duality. And she's not free to go do what she wants. I went through a breakup, an unexpected breakup with the woman that I moved to Amsterdam for. And what I was really happy for for my I was like pissed for a lot of reasons, but I was like happy for myself because I realized I was falling down into the old rabbit hole of being angry and sad and all. And then I at one point I I was watching a movie or something, and this little this line, random line came across, and I just burst out laughing. And I said to myself, thank God I discovered this now and not five years from now. And it didn't make the pain go away or the inconvenience or the cost. It just said, I can choose, I don't have to be trapped in that old story of, here I go again, somebody's from blah blah blah blah blah blah. I thought I'd done my no, it is you have to do this like meet it head on. And so for her, it's she's there's something about that feels like it's still trapping for her. It's too convenient. and so I would just push on it and see what happens. And often the reality is that especially for things that are associated with our childhood, children almost always are waiting. Someday Santa Claus will come, or someday daddy will come back, or someday my mother will see me, or where there's a lot of waiting. And then as adults you realize they're not, they're not coming. Right? And so people that are stuck in these sort of patterns of I've I've done the work, everything's fine now, that they're still waiting for something. And until they figure out what that is and let that go, they're not gonna They'll make they'll made the initial step of progress, of making that distinction, of I did this be because it was influenced by that, but they won't really have said therefore how would I like to shift my story about myself and my life? So that's not even a factor anymore. Paige Williams: if narrative intelligence can be increased, what might be traits of that person? David Drake: so and this is gonna go back to my love of attachment theory. So you would ha people that are narratively intelligent have high degrees of self regulation? 'Cause that would create that that gives them the foundation for choice around emotional states and physical responses or verbal responses. So they're intelligent about there's more here that first meets the eye. I can't just leap on the first story I get to. And and my view is one view of many. so you have ability to move through time and space and energy like what's happening here and seeing this through multiple lenses all in real time. If you were narratively intelligent, you would recognize your role in your own stories, even if they seem on the surface to be about other people. You would find a have a healthy perspective on your contributions to those stories and willingness to do something about them where that seems useful. you would be able to retire stories that no longer serve you at all and not bring them back. You be aware of patterns in your life that emanate from the stories you keep telling yourself and notice those patterns when they first get activated and then have some backup plans about how you want to move through that in a new way. And and I think I think what I I've realized even more in the from all my travels is there's whole bunch of ways to tell a story. And mine's just one of them. And and so I think one of the things that I look at around narrative intelligence is a state of a state of profound curiosity. How can someone so I you know I have two brothers who are Trump voters. One I can talk to pretty openly and I you know, he's more moderate about it, one not so much. My men the one the one brother that we can talk some about that. I my I try to enter those conversations with as much maturity and curiosity as I can. How could someone come to narrate their world that way? What does that look like to them? How does that feel like to them? What how does that serve them? and I feel like You know, we all have we all have partials grasps on reality. And some things are more real than others. So, like you know, we have a current president who's lies through his teeth, right? So that's not reality, that's artificial. And but but even there, I'm trying like People that are narratively intelligent are able to move to a variety of levels to see a lot a variety of things. And like, for example, what one would argue that he's the perfect president. Because he's helping us to see in bold, in the boldest, brashest terms, the corruption and complete monkiness of so much about our culture. So yeah, and so I think it's being able to kind of it narratively intelligent people have strong rudders, they can keep moving, they can they're also quite flexible to be able to shift stories when they're confronted with new information or new perspectives. and they can recognize better than most how their stories influence who and how they are in the world. Paige Williams: Yeah, it's interesting because of course there's been a lot of bad actors in our society who are who use narrative to move whole groups of people to a David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: belief system that does great harm to people. David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: So there's something in the word intelligence that means goodness. David Drake: It it yeah. Paige Williams: 'Cause we wouldn't call Hitler narratively intelligent, but he knew how to use story to create harm. David Drake: Yeah. So that again, that goes back to where I started. I think some of my anxiety about even people using this for the for good, when we start looking at story as commodity, then they put we end up with, you know, all the greenwashing, we end up with all of the you know things that we're being lied to about safety of products and j stereotypes about other people and Mm-hmm. And so I I just look at story as a it's a a a way of hu humans relating. And sometimes we those things rigidify that allow certain people to use them against other people. and so there's sort of I look at this as there's a maybe the last thing I'll say about narrative intelligence for now is th there's also a sense of softness about this. That's for some reason the word that comes to mind. and so So I I don't agree with anything my brothers say, but for the one that actually I formed a relationship with, there's a softness I keep he's keep telling myself he's my brother. Paige Williams: Mm. David Drake: And he's making efforts to look to me, his old older brother, to in some ways get some help on some things indirectly. And he's actually has a lot of great skills. And he's just reached some different conclusions about life. And then I have. And he has he's never really traveled, so he doesn't really know much beyond his own small world. And yeah, and so I've just I've come to admire him a lot for all that. And and so there's a bit of like I said, humility, love, compassion. the and and softness is for some reason, I don't mean that in a kind of a fluffy way, but sort of a a gentleness that we're holding these stories that people present to us. And even the, you know, the person, the client you were talking about, maybe she just wants to be held, right? And have somebody tell her it's gonna be okay. I d I don't know. But yeah, so there's sort of a fierceness and a humility that come with story work to me. Paige Williams: you've spent decades developing narrative coaching. If narrative intelligence is going to be useful as a distinct construct rather than another name for narrative coaching or narrative competence, David Drake: Yeah. Paige Williams: what would it need to explain or measure that those approaches maybe don't all already capture? David Drake: Well I mean the what comes to mind is an indirect answer to your question, but I'll start there and see where it takes us. So we live in a time when there's dozens and dozens of intelligences. Everybody's putting something in front of intelligence and creating some new thing. and yeah, some s so I think there's there's so what's the what's the appreciative's take on that? I think I would for if I were you, if I was pursuing narrative intelligence, I would say for whom would this be most useful? And where would this sit in what they do? As a concept in itself makes sense to me. I think it's important. And I think it will it could get lost in the shuffle of all the other intelligences. And so you think about like someone like so, like a point of reference for you might be some of Dan Goleman's early work on emotional intelligence. You probably already thought of this. And if you can't find it, let me know. I'll send you old handout. But I think that would be and then figuring out where where would that frame be most useful and to whom? To do what. And I would start by thinking about where, yeah, what that would look like to apply that for them. And then figuring out kind of how do you sort of embed that in some of those circles. And then finding people in adjacent industries or spaces that might find also find this useful. And the assumption because of And like IQ tests, there's this assumption with intelligence is that you should be able to measure it somehow. And so yeah, one, you know, we could put five people in front of us and you and I could pretty easily agree on who's the most inarratively intelligent people in that group, sort of intuitively. But I I feel like maybe more useful to you is like what are you trying to measure here? Because n unlike intelligence, which is, you know, it still has its issues, but it's a bit easier to track. trying to track and evaluate narrative intelligence, I think would be difficult. I think it's more I could see it more as a developmental tool. Like how do I use that to understand where I'm some of my blind spots are when I listen to other people's stories, or where am I handicapping myself because I'm not working with my stories effectively to resolve my issues? but I would use it more as an engine than a destination. Paige Williams: Hmm. David, thank you for your insight, your experience. David Drake: You're welcome. Paige Williams: Delightful as always. And I learned a ton. Thanks for being here. David Drake: You're welcome. Paige Williams: Wow. Here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. This conversation actually changed my own story about narrative intelligence. I came in thinking a lot about the five capacities I've been exploring. That is, can we see the story? Can we discern what is true? Can we imagine other interpretations? Can we choose our relationship to it? And then can we actually live that choice? And I was wondering if something was missing in my capacities. And David helped me see that maybe what's missing isn't another capacity. Maybe there are things we have to move through in order to become freer in relationship to a story. What did this story cost me? What am I still holding because of it? What needs to be grieved, forgiven, released, or simply acknowledged before I can stop organizing my life around it? David said that if we don't reckon with the cost of an old story, it can keep pulling us back into the same interpretation, even after we understand it intellectually. And that changes something, at least for me. Because maybe narrative intelligence isn't primarily about becoming better at changing our stories. Maybe it is about becoming more capable of changing our relationship to story. And I was also struck by David's challenge to the word transformation. He said transformation is actually rare. Sometimes what changes isn't who we are at all. What changes is the range of choices we can see and allow ourselves to make. And that feels important. Maybe freedom doesn't require becoming somebody new. Maybe it begins when a story that was once determined, what was possible, No longer gets to make that decision for us. And David left me with another challenge I'll be carrying forward. Narrative intelligence may matter less as a destination or a score than as an engine for development. So the question I'm leaving this conversation with is what story are you able to understand perfectly, but still not free enough to stop living? And what do I do about the narrative quotient? This is one hundred stories.