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VANISHED IN MONTANA: ASHLEY HEAVYRUNNER'S FAMILY DESPERATE PLEA · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace vanished in Montana, Beautiful Ashley
0:13
Speaker 1: Louring heavy Runner family makes a desperate PLEA tonight, good evening.
0:18
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
0:20
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
0:29
Speaker 2: Ashley heavy Runner is a bright, funny student preparing for
0:33
Speaker 2: a better future until one day she vanishes in Brownie,
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Speaker 2: Montana and has never heard from again.
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Speaker 1: I always think of Montana as this beautiful oasis really
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Speaker 1: with mountains and prairies, wildlife. I don't think of it
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Speaker 1: as high crime. I want to go to Montana. I
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Speaker 1: want to hike in Montana. I want to breathe in
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Speaker 1: the fresh air of Montana. I don't want to investigate
1:03
Speaker 1: a missing person's case in Montana. That's like somebody goes
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Speaker 1: missing at Disneyland. It just doesn't compute, but yet it happened.
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Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel including a special guest,
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Speaker 1: Kimberly Louring heavy Runner. This is Ashley's sister. But before
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Speaker 1: I go to miss Kimberly straight to Dave Matt, crime
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Speaker 1: Story's investigative reporter. Dave just explain to everyone what we
1:31
Speaker 1: know of how sister Ashley seemingly disappeared.
1:35
Speaker 3: What we know, Nancy, is that Ashley leaves her mother's
1:39
Speaker 3: house to partner's friends at home. She's actually videotaped at
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Speaker 3: this twenty year old college student videotape at the party,
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Speaker 3: sitting on a couch just like anybody else. But it's
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Speaker 3: that night that's the last time we have any videotape
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Speaker 3: of her, any pictures of her, because Ashley leaves the
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Speaker 3: party with someone and vanishes. We don't see her again.
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Speaker 1: And it's really interesting that Ashley had planned to leave
2:09
Speaker 1: the reservation and start out fresh with her sister in Missilla.
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Speaker 1: Isn't that true? She was on the cusp of leaving.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, her sister, Kimberly was out of the country at
2:20
Speaker 3: the time, but they were preparing to get together and
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Speaker 3: move in together. Ashley was excited, Kimberly was excited about
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Speaker 3: the two of them living together, and actually had a
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Speaker 3: really good goal plan set up for what she was
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Speaker 3: going to do with college and beyond that. Nancy, So, yeah,
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Speaker 3: this is on the cusp of a young adulthood that
2:37
Speaker 3: is with really good stuff.
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Speaker 1: Well, you're telling me she was last seeing at a party.
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Speaker 3: Yes, with friends, party.
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Speaker 1: With friends, Okay, Then explain to me about the plans
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Speaker 1: they had they were planning to start over fresh, and
2:58
Speaker 1: that she had returned from a trip up and the
3:01
Speaker 1: family didn't hurt hear from her. Now those both can
3:05
Speaker 1: be true. She could have gotten back from a trip
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Speaker 1: and went to a party.
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Speaker 3: Kimberly was out of the country when Ashley went missing.
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Speaker 3: Kimberly actually face message Facebook message with Ashley, but Kimberly,
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Speaker 3: the oldest, is the sister she was out of the country.
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Speaker 3: Ashley was in Browning, Montana, at her mother's house and
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Speaker 3: on the Blackfeet Reservation. Ashley was going to a party
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Speaker 3: with friends that night. Kimberly was coming back from Auntrey
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Speaker 3: and it was Okay, I get it.
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Speaker 1: For some reason, I thought that Kimberly was also at
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Speaker 1: the party. Okay, now I understand, Okay, very slowly, Dave,
3:43
Speaker 1: Matt tell me that fact scenario one more time. I've
3:46
Speaker 1: got to make sure I've got the timeline right.
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Speaker 4: Okay.
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Speaker 3: Ashley is at her home with her mother with Loxy,
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Speaker 3: and Loxi is the last person that actually sees Ashley
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Speaker 3: before she leaves to go to the party. Loxy is
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Speaker 3: Ashley's mother. Ashley goes to the party and while she's there,
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Speaker 3: she sends a message via Facebook messenger to her sister, Kimberly.
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Speaker 3: Kimberly is out of the country at the time, but
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Speaker 3: when Kimberly comes back home, they Ashley and Kimberly have
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Speaker 3: plans to move in together. Ashley is moving in with Kimberly.
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Speaker 3: So that's the timeline for that evening of June the fifth.
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Speaker 1: Nancy, Okay, So Mom's at home on the ranch as
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Speaker 1: she goes to a party with friends. And where was
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Speaker 1: the party, Dave mac do we know?
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Speaker 3: It was in the largest town on the Blackfeet Reservation
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Speaker 3: called Browning, Okay.
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Speaker 1: And a problem with anyone that vanishes or goes missing
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Speaker 1: on a reservation. To Brian Fitzgibbons, Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security.
4:48
Speaker 1: He leads a team of investigators that do nothing but
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Speaker 1: locate and extract missing people around the world. He is
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Speaker 1: a former marine and Rocky Vet. Problem with the reservations
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Speaker 1: there is no federal or local law enforcement allowed on
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Speaker 1: They are beyond our jurisdiction. Every reservation is its own
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Speaker 1: Indian territory and we don't have any jurisdiction there. The
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Speaker 1: fans can't just go in and go Hey, I want
5:25
Speaker 1: to search your house. I think Ashley was here. Impossible.
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Speaker 1: That would be like the cops running over to Tijuana
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Speaker 1: and bursting busting down a door to search for drugs.
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Speaker 1: They don't have jurisdiction to do that. Even if they're right,
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Speaker 1: they still can't do it. Agree, disagree.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, In this case, the Blackfeet Law Enforcement Services is
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Speaker 5: the tribal law enforcement authority that has jurisdiction in Browning
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Speaker 5: and was immediately handling Ashley's And I know that the
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Speaker 5: family has reported quite a bit of frustration with the
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Speaker 5: feedback and responsiveness that they got after initial searches for
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Speaker 5: Ashley came up blank.
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Speaker 1: And it goes so far. Let me also truss this.
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Speaker 1: The Blackfeet Law Enforcement Services denied media requests like Foyer
6:23
Speaker 1: requests for information Freedom of Information Act. They don't even
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Speaker 1: have to give that out because they are immune to
6:31
Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act requests. That's US law and they
6:36
Speaker 1: are their own independent territory. They don't have to give
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Speaker 1: anybody anything. Okay, how is that helping the search for Ashley.
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Speaker 1: She's beautiful, she's brilliant, she's funny. She's last seen at
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Speaker 1: a party. That's where I would start the investigation. Where
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Speaker 1: is the party? Who was at the party. Who are
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Speaker 1: these friends? Did the friends see her leave the party?
7:01
Speaker 1: Remember Natalie Holloway? How could you not remember Natalie Holloway.
7:05
Speaker 1: She goes on senior trip. She's at a casino with
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Speaker 1: all of her friend girls. She leaves with your Vandersloot
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Speaker 1: and the Calpo brothers. I think that a drug was
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Speaker 1: put in her drink. Her friends, they're gone, they're separated,
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Speaker 1: and she ends up dead. Did that happen that night?
7:27
Speaker 1: Joining us hopefully with some answers Ashley's sister, Kimberly Luring
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Speaker 1: Heavy Runner. Ashley's sister, Kimberly, thank you for being with
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Speaker 1: us tonight.
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Speaker 6: Oh yes, of course, thank you so much for having me.
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Speaker 1: Well, honestly, the honor is mine, Kimberly. Kimberly, I want
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Speaker 1: you to explain everything you know about the party your
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Speaker 1: sister attended the last night she was seen alive.
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Speaker 7: Yes, it was hosted at this gentleman place that is
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Speaker 7: known to having very like, really awful parties where they
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Speaker 7: throw cold water on people who are passed out and
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Speaker 7: they post it all over YouTube and people laugh at it.
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Speaker 7: So this is what type of person this guy is.
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Speaker 7: He's able to share these type of stories. But also
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Speaker 7: he lied to me about the party and said that
8:23
Speaker 7: they didn't. He said that he had never seen Ashley
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Speaker 7: at his house, he only seen her with my uncle.
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Speaker 7: And then he did admit there was a party, but
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Speaker 7: the video was deleted in June. But on another podcast
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Speaker 7: they stated that it wasn't deleted, but it was deleted
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Speaker 7: in June. So they lied about the party from the
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Speaker 7: very beginning, and then he is seen talking about it.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a guy that throws parties according
8:55
Speaker 1: to Ashley's sister, where people are mocked and it's posted online. Okay,
9:03
Speaker 1: that's not a good look, but it's not a crime.
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Speaker 1: This is what I find significant, Kimberly, if his story
9:11
Speaker 1: has changed. Repeat, no one has been named a person
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Speaker 1: of interest, No one has been named a suspect. He
9:20
Speaker 1: may have not wanted to divulge. She was at his
9:23
Speaker 1: home at a party, just to stay out of trouble.
9:25
Speaker 1: So please wouldn't come question him about it. I've seen
9:29
Speaker 1: that happen a lot. People lie about something tangential or innocent,
9:35
Speaker 1: and then they become a suspect because they lied. Now,
9:39
Speaker 1: just because we don't like him because of his postings,
9:42
Speaker 1: doesn't mean he has anything to do with Ashley's disappearance.
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Speaker 1: But Brian, if it's Gibbons, let's just add this up.
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Speaker 1: If this is accurate, and there may be an innocent
9:54
Speaker 1: explanation which you have to run down and figure out.
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Speaker 1: First of all, he said she wasn't at the party.
10:01
Speaker 1: He lied about the party. According to Kimberly, he said
10:06
Speaker 1: he didn't see her, then later says, oh, yes there
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Speaker 1: was a party, but we deleted the video, the home video,
10:18
Speaker 1: then later stated the video still exists and people have
10:22
Speaker 1: actually seen it. I find that disturbing. I'm not calling
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Speaker 1: him out as a suspect or a person of interest,
10:30
Speaker 1: but I find it very disturbing that he wouldn't say, yes,
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Speaker 1: she was here, I saw her. Maybe I've got it
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Speaker 1: on video.
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Speaker 5: Let me look yeah, and I'll tell you Nancy. One
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Speaker 5: of the reasons why I, personally and everyone on my
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Speaker 5: team spends quite a bit of time on interviews in
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Speaker 5: missing persons cases of anybody who saw this person around
10:52
Speaker 5: the time that they went missing. The second point is
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Speaker 5: that we spend quite a bit of time going back
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Speaker 5: and asking the same questions again, sometimes weeks, sometimes months,
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Speaker 5: sometimes years later. What we're looking for there is any inconsistencies.
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Speaker 5: Has their story changed and if so, ware did it change?
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Speaker 5: And you know, to have this gentleman say there wasn't
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Speaker 5: a party, then there was a party. She was there,
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Speaker 5: she wasn't there. This is a major inconsistency that should
11:23
Speaker 5: ought to be looked into further.
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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Inconsistencies matter when someone goes missing.
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Speaker 1: Even if you think it's a subtle or non critical point,
11:45
Speaker 1: you never know what's going to be important. So Kimberly
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Speaker 1: Lauren heavy Runner, this is Ashley's sister the night of
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Speaker 1: the party. How do you know she was at the party?
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Speaker 7: We were told that a family member was able to
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Speaker 7: see the video of her, that she was just sitting
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Speaker 7: on a couch and they were playing pools.
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Speaker 1: Did she look distraught or upset in any way?
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Speaker 6: No, they said she was just sitting there.
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Speaker 1: Was she having a drink?
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Speaker 6: I don't know.
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Speaker 7: They just said that there was just like a flake.
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Speaker 7: It was like a video where they just kind of
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Speaker 7: panned the room. But I never got to see the video.
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Speaker 1: Uh huh do you believe that?
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Speaker 7: I believe that they are so openly about sharing their parties,
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Speaker 7: why not share this one.
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Speaker 6: Why lie about it?
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Speaker 7: Why be so open about the mocking but not be
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Speaker 7: opening about somebody sitting on a couch.
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Speaker 1: That's a really good point, Kimberly. So video exists and
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Speaker 1: your relatives saw her in the video sitting on the sofa.
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Speaker 1: Was anyone sitting with her?
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Speaker 7: Kimberly, Yeah, they said that there was people around, like
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Speaker 7: it was just like a normal So it didn't seem
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Speaker 7: like you should be alarming at the time. But why
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Speaker 7: delete it if it was just a normal pan of
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Speaker 7: a party?
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Speaker 1: Do you know anyone else that was at the party?
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Speaker 7: Kimberly, We know, we know the individual who filmed it.
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Speaker 7: He is the cousin of the men that owns the house.
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Speaker 1: Have they been questioned by authorities?
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Speaker 6: I know that they've been, They've been spoken to. And
13:35
Speaker 6: then that is the whole problem.
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Speaker 7: Is that is that we were working with the tribal
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Speaker 7: law enforcement about her case and we had suspects from
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Speaker 7: the very beginning, from day one, Kimberly.
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Speaker 1: Lauren heavy Runner, when did you first realize your sister
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Speaker 1: is missing?
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Speaker 7: When I returned from Morocco on June eighth, I found
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Speaker 7: it weird that she didn't she didn't call me and
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Speaker 7: then the very next day, I remember looking at her
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Speaker 7: Facebook and it said and they said it said a
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Speaker 7: class active eighteen hours ago, which is very odd.
14:19
Speaker 6: But we were told that she was with a.
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Speaker 7: Family friend, so it was like, okay, And then my
14:25
Speaker 7: mom couldn't she wasn't able to get a hold of her.
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Speaker 1: So is that out of character for Ashley not to
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Speaker 1: be active online for eighteen hours?
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Speaker 7: Well, sometimes she loses her phone. She loses her phone
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Speaker 7: a lot, or she breaks her phone. So it seemed
14:44
Speaker 7: like it was okay, but for just a couple of days,
14:49
Speaker 7: you know, and then after when it turned into a week,
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Speaker 7: and then two weeks, and then it was alarming, and
14:54
Speaker 7: then we got a tip. And then her first search
14:58
Speaker 7: was on the twenty fifth of June in the mountains.
15:01
Speaker 1: What was the tip?
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Speaker 7: The tip was that she was seen running from a
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Speaker 7: vehicle and it was going up towards the mountains on
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Speaker 7: Highway eighty nine. It's called Divide the Vide Mountain.
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Speaker 1: And you mentioned Highway eighty nine. Was it still on
15:20
Speaker 1: the reservation.
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Speaker 7: Yes, it was on the reservation. It was right on
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Speaker 7: the border of the Glacier National Park.
15:29
Speaker 1: Question what kind of vehicle?
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Speaker 6: I believe it was in Marty Carlow color Big.
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Speaker 1: With Blue Kimberly. Do you believe it was a credible tip?
15:43
Speaker 1: Do you know who gave the tip?
15:46
Speaker 7: I was never told who gave the tip or we
15:48
Speaker 7: were told by Homeland Security. On the reason why we're
15:52
Speaker 7: up in the mountain area, they said that they were
15:54
Speaker 7: told that the police were told by somebody that they
15:58
Speaker 7: saw her running. That's why we were searching in that area.
16:03
Speaker 1: Then the name Sam McDonald emerges. Listen to McDonald.
16:10
Speaker 8: Somebody asked me one time, Sam, why I'm throng with see?
16:13
Speaker 8: Why do you go out with this young grous? Is
16:15
Speaker 8: there something wrong with me? Why would a twenty year
16:19
Speaker 8: old want to go out with a fifty five year old?
16:21
Speaker 9: But at that time I leaned my chair back. We
16:24
Speaker 9: hadn't been up for days, you know, and just like
16:27
Speaker 9: that I went to sleep and when I woke up,
16:30
Speaker 9: she was gone.
16:31
Speaker 1: That's for our friends at ABC News, Dave mac Who
16:34
Speaker 1: is Sam McDonald and what does he have to do
16:38
Speaker 1: with Ashley other than claiming he dates her?
16:41
Speaker 3: Well, Sam McDonald is in his mid fifties and he
16:45
Speaker 3: claims that he had actually with him from the night
16:48
Speaker 3: of the party for the next six days that she
16:52
Speaker 3: was up in his cabin, which is near Saint Mary's Lake.
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Speaker 3: Sam McDonald has been very vocal about being with Ashley
17:00
Speaker 3: and that he claims. Sam McDonald claims that he is
17:04
Speaker 3: the person who dropped her off when he said that
17:08
Speaker 3: he leaned his chair back. He's claiming that Ashley was
17:11
Speaker 3: texting somebody who was going to come and get her
17:14
Speaker 3: that she referred to as V dog. Okay, now this
17:18
Speaker 3: V dog. That's where Sam McDonald claims he leaned his
17:21
Speaker 3: chair back and fell asleep. When he woke up forty
17:25
Speaker 3: minutes later, Ashley was gone.
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Speaker 1: Okay, that's quite the coincidence that he didn't wake up
17:31
Speaker 1: when Ashley left. Kimberly Lauren heavy Runner, what do you
17:35
Speaker 1: make of that additional fact?
17:39
Speaker 7: I find it bogus because on another podcast he stated
17:44
Speaker 7: that they woke up that morning and then and then
17:47
Speaker 7: he stated again that they were up for days and
17:50
Speaker 7: he leaned to steep back and went to sleep.
17:55
Speaker 2: Her family searches the Blackfeet Reservation, finding only what maybe
17:59
Speaker 2: the tattered clothing Ashley was last seen wearing. Many who
18:03
Speaker 2: might have valuable information remain silent about what happened to her.
18:08
Speaker 1: How can a beautiful young girl, her life in front
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Speaker 1: of her, just vanish into thin air. That did not happen.
18:16
Speaker 1: Joining us tonight very special guests. I can't emphasize that enough.
18:20
Speaker 1: This is Ashley's sister, Kimberly Loring, heavy runner, who has
18:25
Speaker 1: taken her battle to find her sister all the way
18:29
Speaker 1: to the US Capital. Has it helped? Not yet, but
18:36
Speaker 1: we're not giving up. Also with us of Face you
18:39
Speaker 1: know very well, Payne Lindsay joining US podcast host that
18:44
Speaker 1: really doesn't say it all podcast host because Lindsay goes
18:49
Speaker 1: all over the country trying to solve cases. And do
18:53
Speaker 1: I have to say the two words Tara Grinstead because
18:58
Speaker 1: he did so much to crack that case. Wide open host,
19:03
Speaker 1: executive producer of Up and Vanished, Payne, thank you for
19:07
Speaker 1: being with us. And Brian Fitzgibbons joining US Director Operations,
19:12
Speaker 1: USPA Nationwide Security. I say this every time I introduced
19:16
Speaker 1: to him. He is, as I said, Director Operations, but
19:20
Speaker 1: he leads a team of investigators that go across the
19:24
Speaker 1: world finding and extracting missing people. He runs that team.
19:30
Speaker 1: He is a former marine and Iraqi Warvett. Needless to say,
19:34
Speaker 1: he's seen it all. I want to go straight out,
19:38
Speaker 1: and of course Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter straight
19:42
Speaker 1: out to Payne. Lindsey Pain, I don't know why it's
19:46
Speaker 1: so difficult getting answers in this case. Tell me what
19:51
Speaker 1: you have learned so far.
19:54
Speaker 10: I mean, Nancy, this isn't a mystery where nothing happened.
19:59
Speaker 10: Something definitively happened to Ashley in a tight window of
20:02
Speaker 10: time around specific people. This case hasn't been empty, it's
20:08
Speaker 10: been quiet, but behind the scenes, Kimberly myself, no matter
20:14
Speaker 10: what law enforcement is or isn't doing, we're looking at
20:17
Speaker 10: these same suspects, these same persons of interest, and it's
20:21
Speaker 10: only a matter of time because the secrets they're keeping
20:26
Speaker 10: aren't going to be secret for very long.
20:30
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment, Pain. I want to
20:32
Speaker 1: start at the beginning, because you and I and Kimberly
20:38
Speaker 1: know the history of the case. Start at the beginning, Pain, Lindsay, the.
20:42
Speaker 10: Timeline's kind of murky in terms of exactly what hour
20:46
Speaker 10: Ashley may have gone missing. But we have identified key
20:50
Speaker 10: individuals that have bizarre stories surrounding them, who were the
20:56
Speaker 10: last people to see her alive. And I've talked to
20:59
Speaker 10: these people person, and in some way or another, these
21:04
Speaker 10: individuals hold the key to where Ashley is now and
21:09
Speaker 10: what may have actually happened to her. And the bottom
21:12
Speaker 10: line is, you know, I'm an independent journalist, I'm a podcaster.
21:16
Speaker 10: I'd go and knock on these guys' doors, but I
21:18
Speaker 10: can't put cuffs on anybody. And so if law enforcement
21:21
Speaker 10: isn't at least listening to what we're doing or hearing
21:25
Speaker 10: kimberly out, then we're just stuck in a void here.
21:28
Speaker 10: And so it's time for someone in charge to get
21:32
Speaker 10: up and do some investigative things like make a phone call,
21:36
Speaker 10: reinterview somebody. And I think once that starts happening, if
21:39
Speaker 10: it happens at all, this is no longer.
21:41
Speaker 4: A big mystery.
21:43
Speaker 10: She was last seen at night walking near a residence
21:45
Speaker 10: on the reservation, reportedly heading toward a specific home where
21:49
Speaker 10: there was a party allegedly had and in the hours
21:53
Speaker 10: surrounding her disappearance, there were several conflicting accounts about who
21:58
Speaker 10: she was with, where she may have been going, and
22:01
Speaker 10: more importantly, what actually happened next. There were early rumors
22:05
Speaker 10: of an altercation or violence, though nothing really definitively confirmed publicly,
22:12
Speaker 10: but the timeline of her last known movements, though it's
22:15
Speaker 10: not been fully clarified, we have found people that she
22:18
Speaker 10: was with. One of those people I'll refer to his
22:21
Speaker 10: first name. His name is Sam. She's spent days with
22:24
Speaker 10: this person and according to him, he fell asleep in
22:29
Speaker 10: her car, he fell asleep in his car, and then
22:32
Speaker 10: she vanished. You know, this is not one of those
22:35
Speaker 10: stories that you like to hear. It's either true or
22:38
Speaker 10: it isn't true. This is something that he offered himself.
22:42
Speaker 10: But it goes beyond just Sam. There are other players
22:46
Speaker 10: in this story, and I think her movements extend beyond
22:50
Speaker 10: that moment in the car. And I think the answer lies.
22:53
Speaker 1: To so Paine question I want to pick it up with.
22:56
Speaker 1: Sam is early reminiscent of another case you and I
23:01
Speaker 1: have both worked on, Crystal Rogers. Remember her boyfriend falls
23:07
Speaker 1: asleep with her in the bed next to him playing
23:09
Speaker 1: games on her phone, and he wakes up and she's gone.
23:13
Speaker 1: You know, I'm always suspicious when somebody falls asleep and
23:17
Speaker 1: they wake up and the person is just gone. But
23:20
Speaker 1: it has happened, truly, has happened in life on a
23:24
Speaker 1: few rare occasions. So you can't count it out, Payne.
23:29
Speaker 1: Can you place her anywhere after being with Sam?
23:35
Speaker 10: I can place her with near certainty somewhere else. You know,
23:42
Speaker 10: on the surface, Sam's story sounds like total bs. But
23:45
Speaker 10: I will say I went and knocked on Sam's door,
23:48
Speaker 10: and I talked to him for hours. I talked to
23:50
Speaker 10: him again after that and again after that, and I
23:53
Speaker 10: believe most of his story. I think it's very inconvenient
23:57
Speaker 10: for him. It's not the best excuse if someone goes
23:59
Speaker 10: missing and after you fall asleep. But based on the
24:02
Speaker 10: timeline and other witnesses and other interviews I've conducted, her story.
24:08
Speaker 4: Doesn't end there.
24:09
Speaker 10: There are other interactions, and she's with other people at
24:12
Speaker 10: different locations, And so I think the answer lies beyond
24:17
Speaker 10: Sam himself.
24:18
Speaker 1: You know, to Kimberly luring heavy Runner, Ashley's sister who
24:23
Speaker 1: has taking her battle all the way to the White House,
24:27
Speaker 1: all the way to Capitol Hill. Kimberly, I don't necessarily
24:32
Speaker 1: have to believe that Sam is scrubbed in Sunshine. But
24:36
Speaker 1: if we can place your sister after being at Sam's cabin,
24:43
Speaker 1: then so be it. Do you believe she was alive
24:47
Speaker 1: after her sojourn at Sam's cabin Kimberly, No.
24:52
Speaker 6: I don't believe that she ever left Sam's cabin.
24:55
Speaker 1: So you discount the other witnesses that Paine has spoken with.
25:00
Speaker 7: Yes, there's too many inconsistencies with their stories and they
25:04
Speaker 7: do not match up with the days, the weather. It
25:06
Speaker 7: doesn't make any sense on what they're saying, and they
25:08
Speaker 7: do not match up with Santa's days as well.
25:17
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, you know, Payne Lindsay, I
25:24
Speaker 1: have faced that many many times in court where a
25:29
Speaker 1: witness gets a lot right, but there are glaring problems,
25:35
Speaker 1: and they may be problems with the weather, the lighting,
25:38
Speaker 1: the location, But if the general story can be corroborated,
25:44
Speaker 1: you just have to explain to a jury this is
25:46
Speaker 1: why they got the date wrong. I had that a
25:49
Speaker 1: lot in schamlestation cases because children don't look at the
25:53
Speaker 1: calendar or the clot the way adults do. You'd have
25:56
Speaker 1: to ask them questions like was there a Christmas tree up?
25:59
Speaker 1: Had the Eastern honeycome? I? Was that around Halloween? What
26:02
Speaker 1: did you wear as a costume? To narrow down a
26:06
Speaker 1: general time, So you have to work with a witness's
26:09
Speaker 1: frailties and their bad memory and you have to be
26:12
Speaker 1: able to call through all of their technical legal term
26:16
Speaker 1: paying Lindsay crap and figure out what's real? Are you
26:21
Speaker 1: paying Lindsey convinced she was alive after Sam's cabin.
26:26
Speaker 10: Well, here's the thing to kind of piggyback off of
26:28
Speaker 10: what Kimberly saying. Yeah, the story of Ashley her movements
26:33
Speaker 10: beyond Sam are very murky in those conflicting stories.
26:36
Speaker 4: But I don't think it's as simple as I mean
26:38
Speaker 4: the BOTO line.
26:38
Speaker 10: She's not at Sam's house now, and so I do
26:42
Speaker 10: believe that other parties wherever it was, it could have
26:46
Speaker 10: been down the street from Sam's where he said he was,
26:50
Speaker 10: or somewhere else. Other parties became involved at a certain
26:54
Speaker 10: point and that's when something happened. I don't think that
26:59
Speaker 10: there are days that have transpired. And also, just for
27:03
Speaker 10: the sake of clarity here, Sam is not ruled out
27:07
Speaker 10: by any means. This is his story is being taken
27:11
Speaker 10: with a grain of salt, and just how a police
27:14
Speaker 10: officer might be like, oh, yeah, you know, we're no
27:16
Speaker 10: longer investigating. You don't think for a second that we're
27:19
Speaker 10: not questioning every single word this man says.
27:24
Speaker 4: And you know, Kimberly has a good point.
27:26
Speaker 10: You know, you can go down all these different rabbit holes,
27:29
Speaker 10: but if it always kind of leads back to a
27:31
Speaker 10: certain point in time, then you have to go back there.
27:36
Speaker 10: And so I think that there are other people, like
27:39
Speaker 10: I said earlier, who are involved, who at some point
27:43
Speaker 10: had an interaction either with Sam and Ashley or in
27:49
Speaker 10: helping get rid of her. And that's the reality we're
27:53
Speaker 10: looking at here.
27:56
Speaker 1: The bottom line too, Brian fitz Gibbons joining US Director
27:58
Speaker 1: Operations as a nationwide security This is very similar and
28:03
Speaker 1: hear me out because on surface, it's not similar at
28:06
Speaker 1: all to the Ellen Greenberg case. Ellen Greenberg was murdered,
28:11
Speaker 1: she was stabbed many many times, ten times in the back,
28:15
Speaker 1: and it was real suicide. That said, this case of
28:20
Speaker 1: Ashley Heavy Runner reminds me of the Ellen Greenberg case
28:25
Speaker 1: because there has not been a full and independent investigation
28:32
Speaker 1: contemporaneously with the disappearance and or death. And it's very hard.
28:38
Speaker 1: It's Humpty Dumpty trying to go back, and all the
28:41
Speaker 1: King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty
28:43
Speaker 1: together again trying to piece together Ashley's disappearance like trying
28:48
Speaker 1: to piece together Ellen's murder. It's really hard to do
28:52
Speaker 1: in retrospect, right, So this is what you do for
28:57
Speaker 1: a living. What would you do now? And remember on
29:00
Speaker 1: Indian reservation where everybody's see no evil here, no evil,
29:05
Speaker 1: speak no evil. So what do you do if it's Gibbons?
29:10
Speaker 5: Yeah, you've pointed this out that you know, Pain Lindsay
29:13
Speaker 5: has done the most exhaustive investigation of anybody related to
29:19
Speaker 5: this case, including you know, the Blackfeet Law Enforcement Service
29:23
Speaker 5: and the FBI, you know, and going back this amount
29:27
Speaker 5: of time, we need to do exactly what Pain has done.
29:32
Speaker 5: Reinterview folks that are connected to this case. Because you
29:36
Speaker 5: have a number of people who have extensive criminal records
29:41
Speaker 5: associated with the last moments that we're aware of Ashley's movements.
29:47
Speaker 5: Those are you know, circled and highlighted red and yellow
29:52
Speaker 5: need to be looked at here.
29:55
Speaker 4: Did you have anything to do with her disappearance? No?
29:58
Speaker 8: Fell slick the wrong thing I did. No, probably never
30:04
Speaker 8: forgive myself.
30:06
Speaker 4: Do you feel kind of bad about that?
30:10
Speaker 5: Yeah?
30:11
Speaker 9: What do you think?
30:14
Speaker 5: You know?
30:16
Speaker 6: Yeah?
30:17
Speaker 8: I feel bad.
30:18
Speaker 9: I don't know what happened to.
30:20
Speaker 8: You know, and I feel better for Kimberley and her grandma.
30:25
Speaker 1: That is from paying Lindsay's Up in Vanas True Crime podcast.
30:31
Speaker 1: He has investigated this extensively, but yet still no action.
30:38
Speaker 1: Who is the mysterious Sam? Let me refresh your recollection.
30:44
Speaker 8: Somebody asked me one time, Sam, Way, what's wrong with you?
30:47
Speaker 9: Way?
30:48
Speaker 8: Do you go out with this young girls? Is there
30:50
Speaker 8: something wrong with me? Why would a twenty year old
30:54
Speaker 8: want to go out with a fifty five year old?
30:56
Speaker 9: About that time, I lean my care back. We hadn't
30:59
Speaker 9: been up for days, you know, And just like that,
31:02
Speaker 9: I went to sleep and when I woke up, she
31:05
Speaker 9: was gone.
31:06
Speaker 1: That is the mysterious Sam, who has stated he had
31:09
Speaker 1: nothing to do with Ashley's disappearance and has not been
31:12
Speaker 1: named as the POI, person of interest or suspect. That's
31:15
Speaker 1: from our friends at ABC News. Let's circle back to
31:19
Speaker 1: what we do know. How do you piece together a
31:22
Speaker 1: case in this condition? To Payne Lindsay joining us, he
31:28
Speaker 1: is the star and producer of Up and Vanished Pain,
31:33
Speaker 1: how many people have you interviewed.
31:38
Speaker 10: In this case? I've interviewed dozens, dozens and dozens. I
31:43
Speaker 10: would say probably near forty. I also want to say
31:47
Speaker 10: to his comment earlier. Thank you for the kind words.
31:50
Speaker 10: But I'd like to say that Kimberly has been the
31:55
Speaker 10: biggest investigator in this case outside of myself. She has
32:01
Speaker 10: held the torch in this case in pursuit of justice,
32:06
Speaker 10: and she has been in the weeds just like us,
32:10
Speaker 10: and all the time she lives and breathes this and
32:14
Speaker 10: so this case is still alive thanks to her too.
32:19
Speaker 1: So with forty interviews under your belt, all the work
32:23
Speaker 1: that sister Kimberly has done, we still don't have answers.
32:28
Speaker 1: I mean, Kimberly luring heavy Runner, how does that make
32:32
Speaker 1: you feel?
32:33
Speaker 6: There's really no words how it makes you feel. It's
32:36
Speaker 6: just extremely.
32:39
Speaker 7: It's just extremely difficult and painful to now that we've
32:43
Speaker 7: talked to so many people, but yet.
32:47
Speaker 6: But we're still asking where Ashley is at. It's just
32:50
Speaker 6: very hard.
32:53
Speaker 1: Kimberly, as I mentioned to you, has gone all the
32:56
Speaker 1: way to Washington, DC begging for help. She's both on
33:01
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill.
33:02
Speaker 11: Listen if they would have taken her series as a person,
33:07
Speaker 11: because we are important, I believe that my sister would
33:11
Speaker 11: have been here or we would have had closure.
33:15
Speaker 12: And this is a fundamental question of how we value
33:18
Speaker 12: some of of human life and those who are the
33:21
Speaker 12: most vulnerable, and that you can be a voice for
33:24
Speaker 12: those who don't have a voice here today. And I
33:27
Speaker 12: hope that message is received strongly by our law enforcement,
33:32
Speaker 12: by members of Congress, so that we can conduct investigations
33:37
Speaker 12: and find out what happened to Ashley.
33:40
Speaker 1: Big talk, little do you were hearing Kimberly speaking at
33:47
Speaker 1: a an Indian Affairs committee in Washington, and you were
33:50
Speaker 1: hearing Senator Steve Danes who said all the right things,
33:54
Speaker 1: but yet nothing happens. Payne, Lindsey, what do I have
33:59
Speaker 1: to do stick get dynamite of somebody's rear end to
34:02
Speaker 1: get movement on.
34:02
Speaker 4: This that actually might helped You know, here's the thing.
34:06
Speaker 10: It's it's it's easier for someone like the FBI to
34:10
Speaker 10: do what exactly what I did. You know, I did
34:14
Speaker 10: it as a citizen and found someone's address and got
34:17
Speaker 10: their number, took a normal flight and drove out to
34:21
Speaker 10: Montana and went to this guy's cabin to interview him.
34:25
Speaker 4: And so it would.
34:26
Speaker 10: Take literally one weekend for two FBI agents who frequent
34:32
Speaker 10: this area and are also phudo in charge when it
34:36
Speaker 10: comes to investigations like this. To just literally go do
34:39
Speaker 10: what cops do and knock on some doors and do
34:43
Speaker 10: some detective work.
34:46
Speaker 1: Or Tashina t running crane. They said that I killed her?
34:52
Speaker 1: Did they say that I caught my husband and her?
34:55
Speaker 4: What?
34:56
Speaker 1: Who is they? That's for our friends at ABC News. Okay,
34:59
Speaker 1: now I've got a what is that pain? Who is
35:02
Speaker 1: she that is saying quote they said I killed her?
35:07
Speaker 1: They say I caught my husband and her, but I didn't.
35:09
Speaker 1: What's that?
35:12
Speaker 10: That's somebody who is reacting strangely to Facebook comment and
35:19
Speaker 10: just local commentary about her alleged involvement. I've also spoken
35:25
Speaker 10: with Tea several times, and you know, my read on
35:29
Speaker 10: her specifically is that while she may know a little
35:33
Speaker 10: bit more than she's saying, she seems to be more
35:35
Speaker 10: or less wrapped up in a narrative or close in
35:39
Speaker 10: proximity to something that happened. But isn't the person that
35:43
Speaker 10: we're exactly looking for. Now, that doesn't mean that anyone's rost.
35:46
Speaker 1: So she may know something, but she's not responsible. Is
35:50
Speaker 1: that your take?
35:51
Speaker 5: Yes?
35:52
Speaker 10: I think people it's human nature for a lot of
35:55
Speaker 10: people to self preserve, even your her own character when
36:01
Speaker 10: it comes to a murder case. Which I believe this
36:04
Speaker 10: to be. People are hesitant to give the whole truth,
36:08
Speaker 10: and that doesn't mean that they are the killer, but
36:12
Speaker 10: it does mean they may be holding back a piece
36:14
Speaker 10: of information that they.
36:16
Speaker 4: Looked make them look bad.
36:17
Speaker 10: But that might be the thing we need to finally
36:21
Speaker 10: piece this together.
36:22
Speaker 1: Look, as I always say, you've heard me say it
36:25
Speaker 1: in court, your witnesses are not going to all be
36:28
Speaker 1: nuns in priests and virgins. You got to take your
36:30
Speaker 1: witness as you find them and don't try to fluff
36:35
Speaker 1: them up in front of the jury. The jury will
36:37
Speaker 1: say straight through that. But yet still no action. We
36:42
Speaker 1: still don't have the definitive answer and a prosecution in
36:46
Speaker 1: the case of missing Ashley heavy Runner. Now we know
36:51
Speaker 1: her sister hasn't given up.
36:54
Speaker 13: The last thing I talked to Ashley was on June
36:56
Speaker 13: sixth as she was asking me when I was gonna
37:00
Speaker 13: come back from my trip. I was in Africa at
37:04
Speaker 13: the time. The last time she was on Facebook was
37:07
Speaker 13: on June eighth.
37:08
Speaker 6: She was seen on June.
37:09
Speaker 7: Thirteenth, received several tips that she was hurt, that she
37:13
Speaker 7: was murdered, and that she was.
37:16
Speaker 1: She was seen.
37:19
Speaker 6: Running from a vehicle.
37:21
Speaker 1: That is from our friends at k RT, the three
37:25
Speaker 1: and Equity Talks. Okay, Pain, I've heard in my own
37:31
Speaker 1: investigation multiple reports she was saying running from a vehicle.
37:36
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about that? True? False? And
37:39
Speaker 1: what are the details?
37:41
Speaker 10: I think it comes down to the exact timeframe of
37:45
Speaker 10: when people saw this, because if it happened before she
37:49
Speaker 10: went to Sam's house, it's kind of irrelevant. But if
37:52
Speaker 10: this is in any way putting her in the timeline
37:57
Speaker 10: after she was with Sam, which was for a couple
37:59
Speaker 10: of days, then it's crucial. But because of that sort
38:04
Speaker 10: of confusion, you have to kind of really get down
38:08
Speaker 10: to the bottom of where this lands.
38:11
Speaker 4: In the whole bigger picture.
38:12
Speaker 1: Here Kimberly louring Heavy Runner with us. Kimberly, I just
38:20
Speaker 1: happened to see this on x Twitter. That's how I
38:26
Speaker 1: found out about it. It is getting no coverage. I
38:30
Speaker 1: just happened to find out about it and instead off
38:32
Speaker 1: trying to find you to talk about your sister's disappearance.
38:36
Speaker 1: First of all, why is there no coverage of your
38:40
Speaker 1: sister's disappearance? And do you believe to sena running crane
38:46
Speaker 1: story that she had nothing to do with your sister's disappearance.
38:50
Speaker 7: I don't believe my cousin Tashina's story with the disappearance
38:54
Speaker 7: of my sister, actually because Tashina was the first person
38:57
Speaker 7: that I reached out to.
39:00
Speaker 1: Because of her lifestyle.
39:02
Speaker 7: And the reaction that I received when I first reached
39:06
Speaker 7: out to it really broke my heart because it really
39:10
Speaker 7: just sealed the deal that my cousin had something to
39:13
Speaker 7: do with.
39:15
Speaker 6: That had everything to do with Ashley's disappearance.
39:19
Speaker 1: You at least, at the very least, believe that Running
39:24
Speaker 1: Crying knows more than she's telling.
39:29
Speaker 6: Oh yes, I believe that she has a research.
39:32
Speaker 7: She knows more than what she's saying, just because from
39:36
Speaker 7: the very beginning she was trying to point the finger
39:39
Speaker 7: to people. But as of right now, she's actually pointing
39:42
Speaker 7: the finger at me and saying that I've done.
39:46
Speaker 6: Since them to my sister, which is just it's crazy.
39:50
Speaker 1: Okay, that's ridiculous, And I want to point out again
39:54
Speaker 1: to Shana t Running Crying is not a person of interest,
39:58
Speaker 1: not a suspect, and there in lies the problem. Brian Fitzgibbons,
40:02
Speaker 1: the case has not been investigated, so I don't know
40:07
Speaker 1: who's a poy. If there is a poy nothing because
40:12
Speaker 1: for some reason, nobody is doing anything to find Ashley.
40:17
Speaker 1: Heavy Runner, I'm flow.
40:20
Speaker 5: Mixed, yeah, and tashena running crane is also associated closely,
40:26
Speaker 5: and I believe at least maybe romantically, was involved with
40:32
Speaker 5: a person of interest that Sam indicated that Ashley was
40:37
Speaker 5: last seen with or dropped off to meet in that
40:42
Speaker 5: final day that he reported. So, you know, the number
40:46
Speaker 5: of people around this case who have had numerous contacts
40:52
Speaker 5: with law enforcement on unrelated cases makes this very difficult
40:58
Speaker 5: to get a straight story out of them.
41:01
Speaker 1: Bryph has Gibbs, You and I are both concerned about
41:03
Speaker 1: a prior incident.
41:04
Speaker 5: Explain Yeah, near the time of her disappearance. You know,
41:10
Speaker 5: it's been reported by paint Lindsay that Ashley returned to
41:16
Speaker 5: her father's house in a state of panic, shutting the blinds,
41:22
Speaker 5: attempting to hide inside his residence, saying that somebody was
41:27
Speaker 5: something had happened that she needed to hide from. So
41:32
Speaker 5: you know, that's another key piece of information to add
41:35
Speaker 5: color to what was happening in those final days.
41:41
Speaker 1: So in my mind, that is a definite lead. Pain lindsay,
41:45
Speaker 1: what happened? Do you know?
41:48
Speaker 10: I mean, it all comes down to whose car did
41:50
Speaker 10: she get into? Who was she afraid of? The answers
41:55
Speaker 10: are right there if we can figure that part out.
41:58
Speaker 10: I believe that test simony, it just comes down to,
42:02
Speaker 10: you know, whose card she get into and where'd she go?
42:05
Speaker 4: Was that Sam? Was that Paul? Was that Tea?
42:08
Speaker 10: Was that some other third player that took her somewhere else?
42:11
Speaker 10: I don't know, but they haven't come forward and admitted that,
42:15
Speaker 10: and that's problematic. So I think that you're looking at
42:18
Speaker 10: a lead that, if we can just track it all
42:21
Speaker 10: the way down, can probably take you to the very
42:24
Speaker 10: end of this entire case.
42:27
Speaker 1: You know, Payne. I still do not understand why this
42:31
Speaker 1: case and many other similar cases get no attention because
42:37
Speaker 1: she lives on an Indian reservation, her life doesn't matter,
42:41
Speaker 1: And why does everything have to go through the Bureau
42:44
Speaker 1: of Indian Affairs. Any other case, we would be begging
42:49
Speaker 1: the FBI, we would be begging local law enforcement. People
42:52
Speaker 1: would be lying on the courthouse steps screaming for justice.
42:56
Speaker 1: But nothing nothing, you me a few others at I
43:03
Speaker 1: don't understand it. Pain, It's like doesn't matter. It's like
43:07
Speaker 1: throwing away a paper cup into the trash.
43:09
Speaker 10: Can I mean it's a bureaucratical mess when it comes
43:14
Speaker 10: to investigating crimes like this on tribal land like that.
43:19
Speaker 10: But the bottom line is there's a clean solution. The
43:22
Speaker 10: FBI has the ultimate authority can go in there and
43:25
Speaker 10: do whatever they want, and they do. They just haven't
43:30
Speaker 10: put their focus here, at least that I've seen.
43:33
Speaker 1: Well, Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter pain is right
43:38
Speaker 1: regarding the FBI. Explain the FBI.
43:42
Speaker 3: Got involved in the case after about six and a
43:44
Speaker 3: half months and they took over the lead.
43:47
Speaker 4: You've got to remember on that.
43:48
Speaker 3: Black Feet reservation, Nancy, there's only seventeen full time law enforcement.
43:55
Speaker 3: It's the state of dela It's the size of the
43:56
Speaker 3: state of Delaware. So the FEDS didn't and became the
44:00
Speaker 3: lead on this investigation seven months in.
44:03
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Ashley's
44:07
Speaker 1: disappearance eight zero one, five seven, nine, fourteen hundred, it
44:12
Speaker 1: is amazing to me that Payne Lindsey has done more
44:18
Speaker 1: interviews and more work on this case than law enforcement.
44:24
Speaker 1: Why is that? How much more does sister Kimberly have
44:30
Speaker 1: to endure knocking on doors, begging, screaming, crying to get
44:37
Speaker 1: answers in her sister's disappearance. The family may not have
44:42
Speaker 1: money to put up a reward that we see in
44:45
Speaker 1: many cases, but Payne Lindsey has put up a fifty
44:51
Speaker 1: thousand dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts and
44:57
Speaker 1: the truth of what happened to Ashley heavy Runner fifty
45:03
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Tonight we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff
45:09
Speaker 1: Caleb Mitchell, twenty four, killed in the line of duty,
45:14
Speaker 1: leaving behind his pregnant wife and a two year old child.
45:20
Speaker 1: American hero Deputy Sheriff Caleb Mitchell. Thank you to our guests,
45:25
Speaker 1: especially to Kimberly Loring Heavy Runner and Brian Fitzgibbons and
45:32
Speaker 1: Payne Lindsey, but thank you for being with us tonight
45:35
Speaker 1: and keeping Ashley's case alive. Nancy Gray signing off, I'll
45:40
Speaker 1: see you tomorrow night, and until then, good night friend,