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The Book Everyone's Talking About (And Why It's Terrifying). · The Curve

• 0:01
  Hi and welcome to The Curve Weekly. Today I am joined by a very special guest and friend, Emma Louise Boynton. Hi! Today we are doing a deep dive on a book that everyone has been asking us to do a book review, Belle Burden's Strangers, a memoir of marriage where essentially, spoiler,
• 0:17
  The husband ups and leaves after 21 years. It is terrifying and there has been so much research that's come out in the last couple of weeks around long-term ghosting and what this means for women financially all over the world. New research shows that 31% of teenagers aged between 16 to 18 report being in a financially abusive relationship.
• 0:38
  And really, to me, Strangers is a book about financial abuse, amongst other things. So this is kind of the framing the background, which we're having this conversation around one of the most talked about books of the year. Whether you are in a relationship, happily married, happily single, these conversations are so important to have. And we round off the conversation with Emma and I talking about practical steps to actually get on the same page financially as your partner, which, spoiler, both of us currently are not.
• 1:04
  I'm Sophie Hallwright, ex-radio TV producer who was very tired of not understanding money, investing or the economy. Hi, my name is Emma-Louise Boynton and I'm a writer, a newly published author, a broadcaster and everything else that comes within the title of multi-hyphenate. I'm standing in for Vic Harris who is currently working on a very special secret project and I am delighted to be here.
• 1:31
  Did you know Generate have a team of advisors who will actually meet with you and help you make sense of KiwiSaver? You can book a no-cost KiwiSaver advice session via the link in our podcast show notes. And thanks to Generate for sponsoring this episode of The Curve Weekly. Today we're joined by author, writer, broadcaster, and friend, Emma-Louise Boynton. I love that you've brought your new book on. I am on it.
• 1:56
  press tour. I bring my book everywhere. So it's like my wallet or something, but it's kind of like attached to my hip. You could ask Emma about anything and she will find a way to bring the book. Did I mention I've got a book out? Sorry, I might not mention when I came in the room. I actually am a published author now. I might not mention, but in case you need reminding. So I'm a published author. I think we need to give this a plug before we get into today's episode, because I've read this book. I spent two days reading, which...
• 2:25
  For anyone that knows me, I'm not a great reader. It's kind of embarrassing how long it takes me to get through books. This, I feel like I ate. It was so good and not in the kind of Gen Z I ate, you know, slang, by the way. It was kind of like I inhaled the whole thing. Yeah.
• 2:42
  let's for anyone that hasn't heard of the book or sex talks obviously you're the founder of sex talks let's give an overview as to what you have spent the last three years building and how this book came about yes so well thank you so much and you know what that's actually been a kind of primary piece of feedback i've got from people who messaged me about the book saying they just inhaled it and that's what i really wanted because i think you know i'm a first-time author i wanted this book to be something that you inhale that you just cannot put down
• 3:08
  So I set up a platform called Sex Talks about five years ago now. It's the time has really passed. And I set that up. I have no background in sex. This is not my thing. I used to work in the newsroom. I worked in like with similar backgrounds. I worked at Sky, BBC, Petunia Brown, media in New York, always covering kind of political issues, really interesting gender equality. But during the pandemic, I went to sex therapy personally and found the experience of
• 3:32
  utterly transformative. I realised in that process that I was so disconnected from my body and hence my sexuality. And while I thought that was something that I couldn't fix about myself, I thought your relationship to sex was sort of this immutable fact about yourself. It was just you were sexual or you weren't and I just wasn't. But I went to sex therapy on the recommendation of a woman I met at a dinner party and the experience just changed my life. It...
• 3:55
  recalibrated my connection to my body, ended a 17 year long battle with bulimia, brought back my orgasm, which had disappeared for the majority of my 20s, and just really changed how I inhabited my body and hence I inhabited my life.
• 4:11
  And it struck me then, why do we not have better conversations about sex, intimacy, our bodies, our desires, particularly for women? And suddenly I felt so let down by the conversations I'd been exposed to about sex and intimacy growing up. And I just did what I knew how to do. I was like, right, love a taboo conversation. I, I guess, kind of threw away throughout my career with businesses I set up before, my work in politics and media. I love...
• 4:39
  I love engendering conversations that we're taught not to have, asking questions we're taught are inappropriate or the thing that, you know, that we the taboo topic that we just kind of shush under the rug. So I set up a series called Sex Talks when I did exactly that. I wanted women sitting in rooms, shoulder to shoulder, shedding the shame that we so typically associate with this topic. And about three years ago, I pitched a one pager for a book to my agent and.
• 5:04
  Isn't it crazy how long books take to... Well, isn't it blissful naivety that one needs to start a business or write a book or anything adventurous? Like, if you told me then... By the way, Emma, it's going to take three years. It's going to be... To be here, you probably wouldn't have done it. I don't think I would have done it.
• 5:20
  It's a long lead time. I'm an instant gratification girl. So am I. I mean, I mean, podcasting, like instant fucking gratification. I mean, I know it's a real business. We are live. We are recording. We are live. But just for anyone who hasn't seen it, where have you been? I've been wearing nonstop red for the past three months. Have you run out of read outfits? I have run out of read outfits. I was going to wear red today and I thought your color scheme's not very red. Oh, I don't know. I think read always pops with camera. Actually, red pops with, yeah, and also with green as well. Okay, next time. Um...
• 5:47
  But I was going to wear red, but I was like, there is nothing in my wardrobe that I haven't rinsed for this book at all. So I've been doing so many events and media around it. I mean, it's interesting. I wrote this book. It's really about how women have historically been disconnected from our bodies and hence our sexuality and how we learn to reconnect through pleasure. So it follows my own narrative arc and story.
• 6:05
  But then kind of zooms out and looks at the bigger picture around how women, like this has affected women throughout history. Weirdly, the thing that I loved the most about the book is I didn't think anyone had had similar experiences with sex, body. You know, there was so many, like there was a lot of research in the book, but also a lot of personal anecdotes and experiences at key moments of your life as you grew into different sexual parts of your journey.
• 6:35
  Even going to the sexual healer, I was like, I've done that. Like I did the... Did you go to a sexual healer? Yeah. I had the exact same experience. And every time I talk about it, people are like, what? People are absolutely scandalized. Absolutely think it's the weirdest thing. You paid for an orgasm? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just the weirdest thing in the world. I actually don't think I've talked about it publicly. Anyway...
• 6:53
  I have. That's a mic drop moment. Anyway, what I would say about this book, if you haven't read it or at any point in your life you have had a moment where you've thought, I feel like my sex or my confidence or my relationship to my body could be...
• 7:09
  enhanced in some way you may just not have spent enough time thinking about it and this book allows you the space to actually just sit with some of that there's a lot of built-up conditioning that so many of us have and the way that it shows up in the bedroom is terrifying but I and I should say and I really appreciate that and I think that is why I hoped this book would be to people is that when I wrote it so it reads a bit like fiction so it's like a really good story so it's like propulsive and compelling it doesn't feel like you're being
• 7:35
  taught anything, which I just, I find that sort of nonfiction myself quite dull. So it really is very story led. But I just think it's so much is about just kind of saying the thing that we are all thinking or have experienced, but have often been saddled with so much shame around. We think
• 7:51
  But it's interesting because I think now I'm, you know, I'm through two months into doing the book tour and talking about it a lot. So still years of book exposure has come. But I, what I think is interesting that I'm pulling out of it, I thought I was writing a book about sex and intimacy. What I have realised is that it's actually a book about self-authorship and what it means to build and live a life on your own terms. And your connection to intimacy is, I guess, the vehicle that I have used to explore that.
• 8:20
  But I actually think at the heart of the book, it's around questioning the stories that shape the way you see the world and your role in it and how you can learn to get rid of the stories that no longer serve you and write better ones. And also just question. I think the questioning is so key. And I think that's why you and I get along so well because we don't take what we're told or the stories that we have, you know, put on and worn for a long time as gospel. We're always talking and unwinding and trying to ask like,
• 8:50
  do I still agree with this? Or is this part of my story that I want to keep? Or do I want to get rid of? And whether that's to do with your sexuality, whether it's to do with money, whether it's to do with your career, friendships, do you even want to get married? What do you think of engagement? So I think just in terms of the way you've approached the book, but also life and just Emma as a person and why I really wanted to get her on today.
• 9:11
  So Emma's going to be filling in for Vic for the next few weeks and hopefully the next few months, actually. We've got some really exciting things going on with the curve, which we can't share yet, which is just the most annoying, like, influencer style. Like, something's coming. Oh, but I love it. It's very kind of Taylor Swift coded. It's like Easter egg. It's just not. She hides them. You're like, there's a big secret that we can't talk about. It must just be like.
• 9:33
  You say it one more time, you owe me 500 pounds. But anyway, because Emma is a researcher, broadcaster, has the most incredible mind when it comes to questioning what is happening culturally with regards to any topic, we're really excited to have you on the podcast. And I thought...
• 9:51
  Given you're very good at talking about any topic with regards to a bit of self, what's the word I'm looking for? Confessional? Yes. Deprecating. You know, you are someone who is not hiding the less shiny parts of herself. Oh, yeah. I say too much. Yeah. So what we generally do on our Monday episode is talk about if we're in the red or the green. As in, for anyone that hasn't heard this segment, have you had a great week financially? Have you had a blowout financially? What's going on with your personal finances at the moment?
• 10:21
  Okay, so I need to learn from you, Sophie, on really recalibrating my finances. I've had a red week. I've had a red month. I've had a red few months. I've had a red life. I've had a red and green life. But anyone who has brought out a book will hopefully resonate with this.
• 10:47
  As a first time author, you really do fund like a lot yourself. I have funded my entire book tour. I paid for my book launch. I like you don't get paid for a lot of the promo that you do. It's so funny because it's the most...
• 11:04
  Visible I have been. I've been in basically Telegraph, Times, Stiles, Digital Cover, like Cosmode. It's been everywhere. I've been so visible with the book, which obviously, what a privilege. I feel so grateful. I'm so happy with that. Amazing photos. Amazing photos. Kieran Gitter, shout out to you. Amazing photographer. So it's most visible and like externally successful
• 11:25
  But the finance is behind that because you are just like doing a lot. And also it's that time of like, I want to say yes to everything, but a lot of it's unpaid. So I am very much in the red. Sophie, can you inspire me? Are you in the red? Are you in the green? So I am in the green. And I feel like I've been in the red for ages. Lucy, our social media manager is often asking for our newsletter, you know, are you in the red or the green? And I'm like, I'm in the red again. Can we not rub it in? Yeah.
• 11:50
  But I am in the green, everyone. So without going into too much detail, basically, for the first time in probably years, I've given myself a minute pay rise, which is very exciting. And it meant that I had to look at my finances again. So I looked at how much am I spending on what I need, what I want, and how much do I want to invest. So just –
• 12:12
  like with whistle stop tour because i know that we need to go into this in more detail but basically the rule of thumb that we teach is like 50 of your income should go towards rent bills things that you pay for like life things 30 generally to fund stuff like going out for dinner yeah buying a drink whatever it is you want to do and then 20 ideally towards your investments so pension investments 212 whatever that anyway
• 12:36
  Sounds idyllic. We'll talk about that another time. But I, so I actually wanted to share. So I've now adjusted my numbers. I'm so proud of this. So I now spend 45% of my income on my needs, which is less than 50, which is a good thing. In the green, in the green, in the green. In the green, in the green. I spend 35 a month now on want. So that's actually higher than normal. Getting greedy. I'm getting greedy and I need to look at that. It's looking great. Thank you so much.
• 13:04
  When I first looked at this, I thought, shit, I'm only doing about 11% on investments, but I forgot about my pension. So I'm doing just about 20% on investments, which I'm just, I actually got a notification today because I automated all my money to my different accounts. And I got a notification today saying my trading two-on-two automation for my £400 a month was successful. It's taken me.
• 13:25
  I want to say a year and a half to set up my trading two on two account. I have. Because I've been building my emergency fund and I finally was like, okay, you're done with that. Move on to investments again. Anyway, I've automated it. It's gone in. I'm feeling very proud of myself. Oh my God. I'm so inspired and ashamed is my immediate reaction. I'm like a hundred percent of mine and Kelman's gone to promoting my book.
• 13:50
  But that's also an investment. And we also do talk about this. No, it's true. It's true. It is. It is. Listen, it's paying into my future self. So I'm motivated. I'm sorry. Cash. Cash.
• 14:03
  Anyone who works in creative industries, I think you have to get that balance. Like, yes, it's a privilege to get to create, to get to write, to put out your creations into the world. A privilege. But often it does come at quite a financial cost. And so it's just being kind of realistic about how. Like, what I would say is going to write my next book, I will be much more financially savvy. I'm going to take a leaf out of your book. I'm just going to ask you for tons of tips.
• 14:28
  And probably go in with a little bit more of a financial hat on. I think that's true for any creative endeavor. It's like actually having a bit more of a financial hat with how you approach these things is something we're not taught, but we really ought to be. Do you know what? Just because I know us and we will talk forever. We'll talk about this forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's move on to the first story. Emma, would you like to give an overview as to what we're about to speak about, where it came from? There is so many angles to this.
• 14:56
  But you were the one that first found this research that's just come out. So let's speak about that first. Yes. So just this week, new research was published, which found that 31% of teenage girls aged 16 to 18 have recently experienced economic abuse. I mean, that is a staggering number, with more than a quarter, 27%, reporting that the abuser had prevented them from working, studying or training. Yeah.
• 15:22
  So in light of ongoing discourse around Bell Burden's book, Strangers, which is a brilliant memoir of the kind of very rapid demise of a marriage in which the wife is essentially left in the most precarious situation ever.
• 15:41
  I would say imaginable. She's also personally privileged, but we'll get into that momentarily. Nonetheless, with this kind of discourse around this book and the questions it's prompted, alongside a recent viral piece by author Shante Joseph, some listeners might remember she was the author, she was the writer, who did the other viral piece at the end of last year. Is it, is being, is having a boyfriend embarrassing now? That piece just like took off. I mean, there was no single girls in the whole world that did not see that. There was no one in the single world. I was.
• 16:10
  absolutely thrilled. It was everywhere. Because at the time, I didn't have a boyfriend. I thought, thank God. Yeah, it's fucking embarrassing to have a boyfriend now. How embarrassing. You're in love. Well, I was the opposite, Sophie. I was like, I was single for eight years. And I was like, and now I get a boyfriend and it's embarrassing? Can I do nothing right? Like, what is that? But she just wrote another viral article. I mean, Shantae is a talented journalist. She just wrote another viral article for Vogue about women being ghosted by long-term partners.
• 16:37
  And so I, with that kind of context, so, you know, the Extreme Success of Strangers by Bell Burden, which we'll go into in more detail. We have both read for this episode, I want to say. If anyone has researched in this story, it's on Eloise Boynton and Sophie Hallwright. So with this piece of research coming out this week about financial abuse amongst young people, really shining a light on the prevalence of financial abuse. I mean, 31% is a lot. Alongside with this kind of backdrop of Shante's piece about ghosting in long-term relationships, I think it's a great thing.
• 17:05
  and the kind of ongoing discourse around strangers, this book by Belle Burden, I just felt it just, I couldn't turn away from one single question, which was how can you protect yourself financially in a long-term relationship? And I wanted to bring that to the curve. Before we get into this, I would like to say reading this book was genuinely wonderful.
• 17:25
  One of the most triggering books I've read in a long time. I picked it up and then I actually put it down thinking, I actually don't think I can read this. Because, you know, sometimes when you're consuming stories, it then means that what you either spiral about from an anxiety standpoint of what could happen, it's almost like the thing you never imagined. And it was the same with the piece on Long-Term Ghosting, where I actually kind of wish I could ignore both of these stories because –
• 17:56
  It is so deeply terrifying that someone you love and that you feel so connected to, that you have had open, deep conversations about commitment or are committed for 20 years, like Belle Burden in this book. She was married for 21 years and husband basically up and left overnight is the most scary thing ever. Yeah.
• 18:18
  So can I ask you, because you recommended it to me, it was a book obviously, it's been, it came out in January, it has been everywhere. Netflix has just bought the TV rights. Gwyneth Paltrow is set to play Belle Burden. Is she? Yeah, big. I love that. Belle Burden is just cashing in on this book. So she's made back whatever money she's lost in this divorce. So basically what I'm hearing is horrendous stories, actually a great financial investment. What initially prompted you to read this book?
• 18:43
  I felt like I owed it to the audience. I felt like I needed to read this because I heard it being spoken about so much. And obviously the main theme that comes from this book is the idea of women needing to protect themselves financially in long-term relationships. We speak about it so much on the podcast. Um,
• 18:58
  I think if I'm being completely honest, I personally have such a disconnect between what we talk about from an intellectual standpoint and what I'm currently living with in my relationship. I'm not avoiding money conversations, but I'm certainly not approaching them with...
• 19:16
  with a business first. We are in a contract. I mean, keep in mind, we're not engaged, married, or de facto. So we do live together. But we live together. And so I'm just noticing myself avoiding the conversations that we speak about so often on this podcast. And even just last week, we spoke about the rise of prenups in the US. They're at an all time high, which is amazing. There's 41% of Gen Z and 47% of millennials who are either engaged or married have said they've entered into a prenup.
• 19:45
  which is out from 8% in the 90s. So the rise of these conversations, the fact that so many women are fronting them and bringing them up with their partners is, I mean, I'm proud to be talking about that. But I also am, I'm not at all shielded or I guess,
• 20:09
  I now am in a position where I'm experiencing how uncomfortable those conversations are and trying to separate love and my amazing relationship that I like really love him and I feel so secure. But reading conversations and stories like strangers is.
• 20:29
  It's, you know, you always think it's not going to be me. It's not going to be me. I know this person. I trust this person. And, you know, there was just so many moments in this book and in the article that we referenced around long-term ghosting where I just, none of those people thought it was going to be them. No one thinks it's going to be them.
• 20:46
  And, you know, I think what Belle really speaks about at the start of this is exactly what I was saying to myself, which is, yeah, you must have had signs. There must have been warning signs. Don't tell me that you were in a perfectly loving, happy relationship and all of a sudden he up and cheated on you and left. That doesn't happen. But what she is constantly saying at the start is, I know what you're thinking and I was happy.
• 21:09
  So I actually do think that's an interesting point because when you, they got married quite young. So she's like kind of 51. They got together quite young. They also got together very rapidly. So they were within, I think, a few weeks or a month of being together, they were engaged, which there were red flags throughout the entirety of that relationship, which she does acknowledge throughout the book. There's loads of things, which I'm like, that is a siren going off. I mean, at one point he really discourages her
• 21:37
  from getting a, from saying yes to a job offer. That's right. Because he's like, you don't have time because you need to look after the kids. What I felt reading that book so palpably was like, this is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the romantic ideology. That love done right is us kind of losing ourselves in a relationship. Even the terminology, you know, you fall head over heels with someone, you're looking for the other half to make you whole. It's all about like losing yourself to the potency of...
• 22:06
  love and to the partnership. You know, there's a degree of self-sacrifice that that requires, you know, for the sake of the greater thing, which is this union. What this book is, is a masterclass in self abandonment. And don't get me wrong. He is an absolute asshole. He is awful. He is so callous the way he, you know, she finds out he's cheating. Okay. Spoiler. Spoiler.
• 22:26
  If you haven't read this book, we're going to give everything away. Well, that's the beginning. I know what you're saying. And I guess my point in terms of why did I find this triggering is that I know that. I don't want to completely integrate myself into someone's life. I don't want to be codependent.
• 22:42
  emotionally, financially, in any other way. But I am constantly fighting against this feeling of, but love equals this, and it means sharing everything. It means, and it's not. But that is what we're taught. And that's why I do think it's like, she's a frustrating protagonist to follow because she does make, she becomes so...
• 23:02
  deferential to him she defers to him increasingly for making all the kind of big decisions in their life i mean at one point he purchases their house in martha's vineyard without her seeing it even though they're using her family money to buy it
• 23:18
  She increasingly over time, and she recounts this, she was a high-powered lawyer when they first met. They met working in the same law firm. She lets her career go. She kind of loses her professional and personal identity, giving herself over entirely to the marriage and then to the family unit they create. And then over time, she gives him all economic control and power too. So he makes all their big financial decisions. She loses touch with what any of it means. It's like, and she recognizes this. I mean, she kind of retrospectively writes,
• 23:48
  recounts all this because she can recognise how mistaken she was to so profoundly lose herself in the relationship, but also hand him so much power so that when he walks out, when he, so just for quick context, so he, she finds out that he's cheated, confronts him, he says, it's over, I'm so sorry.
• 24:09
  The next day he ups and leaves and says, I thought I wanted this life and I don't. It sounds like it's so far out of the realm of what she thought was going to happen that she's grappling with this. This is not my reality, but he's left and now in a relationship with somebody else.
• 24:26
  I wanted to read a section from the book. There's so many parts to this. When I was reading it, I folded over probably 20 pages to read out, and I was like, let's do a deep dive on the podcast. But actually, I think this isn't even the whole story. But I'm going to read a little bit about the part where she has abdicated financially because I think that this just like –
• 24:43
  God, I haven't read out loud in a while. You know, the idea of reading out loud, sometimes you realize you... God, okay, good luck. Right. So she says, I lost touch with both the big picture and the details of our financial life, depending on James to tell me what to do. I felt some shame about it, about not being involved, about not asking questions, but I was afraid I wouldn't understand it, and it was too complicated for me. Even though I was a former corporate lawyer, I settled into the vagueness and luxury and privilege of not knowing.
• 25:11
  And part of me liked it, the handing over, James' care for our money, felt like his contribution to our family, the way he showed his love and commitment to me and the kids. There was something romantic about it too, the smart and honorable man, the devoted husband and father shouldering this part of our life, meaning the financial part. I had my own bucket of responsibility, the kids, their school, the meals, the homework and bedtimes.
• 25:32
  So it made sense that he would take on our finances. We were dividing and conquering. So to her, it felt like this romantic, I've got this, you've got that. And I just, yeah, I think when I was reading the book, there was so many moments where I was like,
• 25:47
  You idiot. And I felt really bad for thinking that. But the conversations that I heard about the book before I read it, I thought that I would read it and feel really sorry for her and feel really bad for the position she ended up in. That she ended up in. But I actually read it and was furiated with the way that she approached her finances with her relationship. And there's probably going to be people listening to this that think this is incredibly judgmental. But...
• 26:15
  She basically handed over the entirety of her family wealth. She came from a really wealthy family. Her parents were essentially famous and socialites. She leant into the trad wife family.
• 26:30
  role. She completely removed herself from what is he earning. She wasn't bringing anything in from it. She basically stepped into the role of mother for so many reasons that she explains in this book. But I think even if you decide that that's the role that you want to take within your relationship, of course, that is a completely fine role.
• 26:50
  But when it comes to your finances, those are not – they shouldn't be mutually exclusive. If you want to be at home caring for the kids, amazing. But that does not mean that you don't have visibility over what's coming in, what's in your accounts, the decisions being made. Abdicating financially means –
• 27:06
  Almost. And you lose complete control of...
• 27:23
  But everything that they co-owned would, in the case of divorce, be split equally. Even though, and this is the case. So she used her family funds and her family wealth to purchase their two homes. They have a place in New York and a place in Martha's Vineyard. But she put both of their names on the, like, taxi. That drove me. I was like, you just signed the prenup. You knew by putting his name on it. The trust. I just was, I, and.
• 27:49
  I don't know. I have been reflecting on this since I read the book. I was thinking, is it a good thing for me to be almost incredibly untrustworthy now? Because when it comes to this sort of thing, I am actively aware of worst case scenario at all times when it comes to fear.
• 28:04
  finances and what the demise of a relationship looks like and how detrimental that can be financially. But to the point where maybe I've lost all romantic bones in my body and I don't know if it's a good thing because I was, I would never do that. I've had lots of conversations with friends where we've spoken about prenups, we've spoken about kind of financial responsibility within the confines of relationship and I've had
• 28:25
  And people's immediate response is, oh, it's really unromantic. You don't want to be thinking about the demise of a relationship when you're just going in, when you're going into marriage, when you're building a life with someone. That is the problem. Self-abandonment isn't romantic. Like shirking financial responsibilities isn't romantic. But we have been led to believe that true romance is about that ultimate unison, that like combining together, becoming this unit at the expense of your individuality.
• 28:52
  And as wonderful and beautiful as it is to combine your life with someone, and intimacy is fabulous. Connection, I think, is the core of what it means to be human, not just romantic but also platonic. It is just as important to maintain your individual identity outside of that relationship, and core to that is your financial responsibility. And so I don't think it's unromantic to go into any long-term relationship, whether you're married or just living with a partner, with your eyes wide open, thinking what might it look like if this doesn't end the way I want it to. My new mantra when it comes to dating,
• 29:22
  which has proved quite controversial and seemingly quite unpopular. No, I am so on board with this. I know where you're going. Yeah, is don't... So my new mantra is don't marry or have kids with anyone. You can't imagine being peacefully divorced from. A hundred percent.
• 29:37
  Because I think, you know, how someone treats you in the good times is one thing. Obviously, we want joyful, fun, adventurous relationships, 100%. But I'm also really interested in how someone treats you when things aren't going well. When shit hits the fan, when their work isn't going well, when your work isn't going well, when, you know, there's tension in the relationship. How do they show up in moments like that? Because that is going to tell you a lot about how they're going to be in the case of a fallout, in the case of a breakup. And particularly if you are co-parenting children together and,
• 30:07
  You want someone who continues to treat you with respect and to treat what you've built together, even if it's not going forward as a family, with respect. And so I just, and I pitched this to a few friends the other day. I keep pitching it actually to kind of get everyone's on take. And, you know, a married couple actually, and they're like, oh, you know, it's so unromantic, Emma. Like, you know, I, you know, we're in this for the long haul. I don't want to think about, you know, the possibility of the ending. And again, I'm like,
• 30:32
  I'm not saying that you have to kind of preempt the fallout. And actually at the moment, interestingly, in the UK, there's new legislation being discussed that would mean that if you've lived with someone for three or more years, you get additional rights as recognized as a kind of.
• 30:48
  co as a cohabiting couple right now you basically have no rights equivalent to being in a marriage if you live with someone long term but they are thinking of changing that so again even if you're not married and you know going forward if you're in the uk if you live with someone long term that in itself might become like a really big commitment to in fact
• 31:07
  So in New Zealand, the law is that if you've lived with someone for three years, you become de facto. And therefore, the rights and the legal integration in terms of your assets, your earnings, can be split 50-50 when you separate. People have to be really aware of that. So for example, if you're living in a house with somebody who – like, for example, Vic, who –
• 31:28
  normally is on the podcast for anyone that hasn't listened before. She owns a house that, you know, if she had moved in with her boyfriend and they'd lived there for three years and that was, that officially then would be the family home, which means if they separated, even if they weren't married, that could be split 50-50. So unless you have a prenup or you have a conversation or anything in writing to say, actually this, what was mine before coming into this is still going to be mine if we break up.
• 31:52
  I feel quite confronted by my inability to talk strategically about the financial future of me with my now partner. We kind of skirt around it and we talk about it as individuals and we then say, you know, can't wait to be millionaires. But in terms of the actual granular, how are we getting there? Yeah, and genuinely. And I think part of it is he's setting up two businesses. There's a precarity in that. There's a massive risk outlaw.
• 32:19
  appetite and undertaking I've done the same thing like run my own media business then put this huge amount of time and effort into quite a high risk investment with the book so neither of us have been in this kind of financially flush position we live together
• 32:34
  And so we're kind of, you know, together a lot. But I think because of that, we both feel like we're in anomalous financial situation. That's what has precluded us from having actually quite strategic, meaningful, long term financial conversations. Because it's like, oh, but right now it just doesn't really count. We've been together for almost two years. This precariousness may be built into both of our endeavors. But also we have to just confront the fact we should still be having financial conversations. And we really don't.
• 33:04
  But I mean, I've just moved in with my partner and we, I pay rent because he owns the house. So rent and bills, I pay to him, but we have nothing else shared. We have no shared account for shared expenses. We both pay separately to go to the grocery store. We buy, you know, we buy and cook dinner. It's very much like, you know, not tracked at all in terms of really closely, but
• 33:28
  I think that I, because of stories like, you know, for example, Strangers or this podcast or the article by Shantae Joseph, like talking about long-term relationship ghosting and people just upping and leaving. I think my...
• 33:44
  tolerance for interweaving my finances is I have such an allergic reaction to it that I want to remain completely separate. But at the same time, how on earth does that work when you're in a long – for example, if we had kids.
• 33:59
  you and I wasn't working or I wasn't taking, you know, you have to talk about it because the reality of the pension gap when you're like, women have nearly 50% less when we retire. And mostly that comes from career breaks. Yeah. There is so much in it in terms of you cannot avoid financial conversations and you also cannot avoid being somewhat financially intertwined with somebody. Yeah.
• 34:25
  You can avoid the financial conversations. I've become a pro at that. You cannot avoid the implications of your combining lives with someone. We're taught, particularly as women, not to talk about money. And so I think the avoidance is the easy route, but that doesn't mean the implications of your financial situation.
• 34:45
  particularly as a couple, isn't going to come back to bite you. Obviously, we want to enjoy our day to day, but we also, you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know how someone is going to change. I posted on my stories the other day that I was just reading Bellburn's book, Strangers, and I was really shocked by the abruptness with which her husband leaves, even though I knew the premise of the book. I was then inundated with women DMing me. I actually can't hear that. Their own experience.
• 35:08
  There's so many women who said, yep, I know someone, they left off 70s. I know someone, you know, they've been married for a year. And then he got a bit distanced. And one day he up and left. And it turns out he was fucking her best friend. The best friend thing is too triggering for me. No way. There were too many of these stories for me to not be kind of,
• 35:23
  This isn't as aberrational as we might think. And so... Oh, I just wish we could bury our heads in the sand on that, though. Like, no. We can't. And that's the whole point. And that's the financial thing, isn't it? Because you have to... What you said, I think, about the compounding of, like, the potential resentment that builds about money if you don't track things and if you don't have a kind of equal approach to it. Or at least talk about it and really understand how you both feel. Yeah. Because in the worst case scenario...
• 35:47
  If that person does up and leave one day, apropos nothing, at least you both paid your way. At least you're not thinking back on the years of things you would have done differently had you known it wasn't going to end the way you wanted it to. I don't think that is negative to think. I just don't think self-abandonment and financial self-abandonment is romantics.
• 36:07
  I know, but I also, just to counter the whole thing, because I completely agree with you, and this is where my heart and my head are in completely different places, because I agree, but also nothing is actually equal. How do you actually...
• 36:26
  put any kind of monetary value on me putting my body on the line to have a baby, me giving birth, me taking a back seat with my career because there's no way around that for three months when a baby needs their mother or way longer. There must be mothers listening to this like you have no idea. It's not a three-month period. It's actually your whole life. Or, you know, I think –
• 36:47
  It's very easy in a world where we're now financially independent. And I think this is kind of the whole reason we wanted to talk about this is that all of these laws around marriage and protection with regards to relationships came about in the 70s. Nothing has changed yet. So, yes, places like New Zealand have the three-year de facto rule, but in the UK they don't. So all these women who are having the stranger effect where someone ups and leaves, whether they have kids, whether they're living together, they've been together for 30 years, it doesn't matter. There's no financial protection. Terrifying.
• 37:17
  But even if you have had these conversations, it's how do you quantify what someone is bringing to the relationship because nothing is equal? And I think that, you know, if we look at the curve, for example, as a business, when Vic and I went into business together, which aka is a relationship, we...
• 37:36
  You know, she put money and I put time. That's not 100% equal. Even if it's an imperfect science, even if it's hard to attribute exact value on your contributions to a relationship situationally, etc., you need to fucking try. Because if you don't try, we're screwed. And, you know, we're not setting ourselves up in the most efficacious way possible.
• 37:57
  And that's really what I left that book thinking. Like, and she obviously thinks that. She's looking back over this relationship of 21 years, highlighting all these small decisions that she made as time went on that gave him increasing power, both kind of relationship-wise, but also financially, that then compounded, as you said, to mean that when he walked out after 21 years, she was in a really scary position from a financial perspective,
• 38:27
  because they just hadn't had those proper conversations and because she'd so left the table. Lauren Wasser, who's that like celebrity divorce lawyer who she kind of represented Kim Kardashian, she represents all the celebs. I was just listening to a podcast that she was on this morning on the Hot Smart Rich podcast.
• 38:42
  And she spoke about the importance of just addressing these conversations. Because she was like, even if you don't have a prenup, you have a prenup. Because whatever state, and she's obviously based in the US, but it kind of goes back to what you say about New Zealand, UK, whatever laws. But also even if you are married as well, we spoke about this last week, there's
• 39:02
  you are entering into a contract regardless of if you create the terms yourself. Exactly. And so she was like, create the terms yourself. So one, always don't see a prenup as like an exceptional, unromantic thing. Think of it as like, you are entering agreement. So like, you want to set those terms, you want to have that conversation.
• 39:17
  And she said and she acknowledged, even if you do have, you know, a situation where you have one person stays at home and looks after children, one person goes out to work, neither party should ever step away from the conversations about money. Both of you go to the financial advisor. Both of you go to the accountant. Both of you constantly remain equally present in those financial conversations throughout the entirety of the relationship. She was like, that is the one thing I tell her.
• 39:42
  Everyone. Yes. And also, I think when it comes to leaning in, that is the biggest and most important thing is if you have someone that is not willing to explain something in a way that makes sense, for example, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever you're in a relationship with, if they are trying to take control of the finances and you try to ask or ask questions or figure out what's going on,
• 40:05
  And they make you feel embarrassed, ashamed that you don't know, and then you retreat to your corner and don't ask questions again. That is the biggest financial red flag ever. And that's what this book really – he loved the idea of her not being – it was so odd the way that he was quite nitpicky with what she spent from a credit card standpoint –
• 40:26
  But, you know, he was bringing home bonuses. He was getting pay rises and she had no idea. But also what I thought was just the weirdest part is she said something about how, you know, she assumed based on their lifestyle that they were actually really maxing out with what they could afford. When actually when the relationship ended, she realized how much leftover money and wealth had been accumulated that, you know, I mean, God, they had a pretty frivolous, amazing life. They didn't need to spend more. But it was more the fact she didn't even know that they were close to capacity. She thought they were close to capacity. They weren't.
• 40:56
  And Lauren Wasserman says this, actually. She said, you know, you don't know what your budget is, even on a day-to-day shopping budget, you know, the essentials, as, you know, part of a family, if you don't know how much money is coming in and out. So you completely abdicate any real knowledge and power about your spending capabilities if you don't know the financial situation. On a then really practical note, and inspired by this conversation myself, and I just love the way I can speak so, like...
• 41:25
  confidently and you know so I'm so in this and I'm like yes have conversations about finances and then honestly do not do it at my own home and shy away from these conversations personally but I guess that's such a um probably quite a common thing but same but I've spoken about money for six years on a podcast and here I am avoiding a monzo split who are you sort it out okay so there I imagine there's a lot of people listening to this who are also thinking oh my god this is a
• 41:54
  What then do you think are the first steps that someone should take who's in a long term relationship who wants to protect themselves financially, not even protect, but wants to be a bit more financially savvy within the confines of the relationship? Is it having a joint spreadsheet where you both track your joint finances? What is it?
• 42:12
  I agree. I think that it's all good and well for us to be talking about this in sort of like an esoteric theoretical way. But what about practically? What does that actually mean? And I have brainstormed this, so I've got some ideas. But let's just take a quick break. We've got a word from today's sponsor and we'll be right back with things that you can talk about and ask your partner, as well as the key things that you actually need to know about your own finances before you can even enter into a conversation with regards to relationship finances.
• 42:40
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• 43:05
  So a big thank you to Generate for sponsoring this episode of The Curve Weekly. Check out their track record and disclosures using the link in the show notes. And remember, track records don't guarantee future returns. Right, so I was brainstorming because, as I have mentioned, I am currently being Bellburton. Not quite as bad, but I sort of am.
• 43:29
  I don't think you're signing off for your right career. No, I'm not. I'm not. But I am starting a very slippery slope that is looking not great. And also the opposite of what I try and preach. I'm at the bottom of that slippery slope, I think. Yeah. I fell. I slipped. Yeah, yeah. You're down there. I slipped and now I'm just like, pluffing. So tell me what you and I both need to do to rectify this.
• 43:54
  I think the first step, and I actually think why so many of us don't talk about our finances with our partner is we don't know our own personal financial situation. Guilty as charged. Yes. So I think the reason we avoid it with the partner is because we haven't even had it with ourselves. Yeah. So if you don't know what your own limitations are, and I mean separately from a partner, so if you are earning –
• 44:16
  Are you, how much of your money is being spent on things that you need, mortgage, rent, et cetera, things that you want. Also keep in mind kids, you know, whether it's school fees, whatever it is. And then investing. What are you investing? Do you have any of your surplus? You know, we, we spoke briefly at the side of this episode around the 50, 30, 20. Investing in me. Yeah. Constantly. Basically 100% of your money. 100% me.
• 44:41
  But if you aren't happy with your own personal setup, if you aren't happy with your own personal setup, how can you possibly think about then how you integrate with someone? And also, if you haven't even looked at your own spending, for example, what do I value, what do I want to spend my money on? How are you even meant to get aligned with the person you're in a relationship with? This is so confronting for me personally and maybe for some people listening. If that's you, like, hard relate. Let's bond over this.
• 45:11
  I think that for me is the thing that has stopped me having this conversation in a meaningful, productive, strategic way with my partner is shame. So just as shame stopped me from talking about sex and intimacy for so many years, it is shame that is stopping me from talking about my finances and our finances with my partner. Because I don't feel across the detail of my finances in a way I'd want to be.
• 45:37
  But then second of all, I feel aware that I took a hit to my income in really focusing on this book. And it was an active choice. I, you know, discussed it with my dad. He's also a writer. And he was like, it's your first book. Fucking go for it. Just throw in everything. Give it everything you have.
• 45:54
  It's going to take a hit because you'll do fewer other things, but do it. So I took that advice for better and for worse. So I was aware of that when I went into the book writing process. I've worked alongside it, of course. I've still done lots of other presenting, hosting, all the other stuff, but it's taken a hit. Because of that, I feel a modicum of shame that while on the outside, I'm doing all this like really cool, really interesting, like living my dream life as a writer, I'm...
• 46:19
  The underbelly of that is I'm not in the financial position I necessarily want to be. And I was in a better financial position before. And so that shame has meant I want to avoid this topic with my partner because I don't feel I'm bringing my best self to the table. And I'm someone I'm fucking confident. I'm successful in my career. I'm.
• 46:41
  quite proud of what I've created and what I do. And so it feels embarrassing to admit to him, yeah, I'm not as, you know, my finances aren't exactly how I wanted them. And so I've just avoided that conversation altogether. So it's really the kind of silencing effect of shame. Firstly, I have been you slash was you six years ago. I mean, it's taken me a while. I was in a debt. Oh, yeah.
• 47:08
  I mean close to like $50,000. Yeah, I mean I basically got a credit card and spent about $20,000 on a new wardrobe after an earthquake with no concept of compounding interest owed on what you spent. I mean this is a whole conversation probably for another time, but I guess my overarching thoughts on that is majority of women are ashamed when it comes to money. Majority of women haven't looked at or did.
• 47:35
  realized what they're doing or taking the time to even look at it, you know, in the same way you've looked at your sex life with a fine tooth comb with the book, you have to do the same thing when it comes to money. So there's just like a lot of nuance that comes with integrating finances. So I would say step one would be look at your own spending. How do you feel about spending money on certain things? Do you know what you're spending?
• 47:56
  And then what do they value spending money on? Because you have to align that first. If you are so misaligned with what you want to spend money on, then probably keeping things very, very, very separate is going to avoid fights. Because you're not like, why did you go and buy a new motorbike? You don't need one. And my boyfriend's looking at buying a motorbike. But that's a good example, right? Yeah. Yeah.
• 48:18
  Would I buy that if it was my own money? Absolutely not. No. I can so see you with a motorbike, actually. I love being the passenger princess, I will say. I mean, I'm 100% on board with go spend it. But if it was my money, it's different. So probably there's way more to this in terms of making it practical and for people to get on the same page. But I've written down a bunch of questions that I think that you should ask everybody.
• 48:40
  and get on the same page with. And by the way, I would love if you're listening to this to either comment where you listen with an extra question or something else, because these are just a few that came to mind. But I almost feel like we should compile a list of the stuff that you need to answer with your partner to get on the same page financially.
• 48:56
  Yeah, I guess depending on what your relationship status is, because there's a lot of people that listen to this that will be engaged, married. There's also a lot of people that are single. I think that regardless of if you want to or you already have combined your finances, having open conversations, even in hypothetical, is really good to understand how you both feel. And I actually think even if you are married and you're completely splitting everything,
• 49:20
  I mean, God, aren't everyone, everyone's looking for new things to talk about. You see all those memes about like couples on holiday and they're just not talking anymore. I'm like, these are all very good questions. Yeah. Like why don't you just have like a financial Friday and on your date night you ask one question. But I think if you have other ones that you could add to this, like please comment where you're listening, but maybe we could also off mic compile some other ones. But I've started with what kind of life,
• 49:46
  do you want to live and what does financial success or freedom look like to you like now how do you want to live but also in the future do you want five houses do you want one do you want to live in the city do you want to live in the country do you want to go on really lavish holidays all the time or are you really happy with camping on the side of a hill you know neither I used to think it was so crazy
• 50:11
  Cool and relatable to be like, love camping. Love camping. Hate camping. I need to sleep. Otherwise, I don't have a good holiday. I'm exactly the same. Soaring. You can hear it through. Like, no. Sorry, that is such a good question. I have never asked my partner that. Because if you are working towards something, i.e. you are, your career, the money that you're earning, the assets you're accumulating.
• 50:31
  do you want to spend what is the success point because if it's always moving then you're never actually working towards the same thing and also it's the moving goal post which is just exhausting so like what is success to you and how much do you need to feel that now in maybe a year's time and then in 10 years time so you actually also have a bit of a like realistic um kind of layout of what that like financial growth and evolution looks like so you have tangible goals and also
• 51:00
  Are you in debt? People are in debt. And if you get married and intertwine your finances, you are then in debt. Like, it is legally your obligation too. If someone then dies, it falls onto you. It's so crazy the fact we don't talk about this. Some people are in relationships for five years before knowing someone's in a huge amount of debt. That impacts you. So, like, are you? And also, is your partner? Ask. I'm not in debt. That is my point of financial pride. Yeah, really impressive.
• 51:27
  No, it is. It sounds like a low bar. No, it's not. It's really good. Like so many people accidentally end up in debt. Okay, I'm going to try and move through these at a bit more pace. What are your assets? Like do you have assets at all? My bike. Your book. Your bike, your book. I cycled here on a stunning day. No, but you actually probably have more than you think. Have you looked into your pension? No. Has he?
• 51:49
  Because I don't have a pension. Right. We've got a lot of work to do here, I feel. I know. Right. But does he? Is he putting money into a pension? He does have a pension. But you also don't need to out his full financial picture here. But I think these are all things you need to talk about. How much money do you have? Where is it?
• 52:06
  Like, do you have money in an ISA? Do you have money in savings? Have you invested in private companies? Do you invest in the stock market? Where is your money? You, him, talk about it. She, whoever you're with. Do you want to work forever? Do you want to be work optional? Do you, like, actually, is there a point in which you want, at, say, 45, to not be working? Because that then means you need to be putting away way more now. Sure.
• 52:26
  like obviously do you want to get married have kids if you have if you are married or how many kids do you want and how expensive are they and what do you want how do you think about public versus private school do you what do you value with regards to spending you need to ask like a lot of in-depth questions about this hypothetical future whether you're in the middle of it or you're thinking about it or you're single I mean maybe you're not the second or third date but talk about that
• 52:52
  Second date. So do you see your kids being privately or publicly educated? Because if it's not private, I'm not interested. And have you got a savings plan specifically geared toward that private school education? But it's funny because when Vic and her boyfriend got together, one of the early conversations they had was that he had a pot of money put aside for their future family. Not just for her, but for...
• 53:15
  You know, his hypothetical future family. That was a level of financial responsibility I've never... She was so... No wonder she's fun with him. It was really cute. What financial decisions do you want to be combined and to consult each other on versus independent? I don't think there's many couples that would be completely aligned on how they want to spend money.
• 53:31
  So I personally feel like I want to find a way to be feeling like we have shared goals and we're building a shared life together, but we also have the independence of our own accounts, of our own independence when it comes to what we want to spend on. I really want to find a middle ground personally. And I mean, this goes without saying we've spoken about it so many times. You need to have your emergency fund.
• 53:52
  Yeah. Because if you are in any kind of like bell burden in this book, Strangers, one of the main things that she spoke about was that, yeah, all of the accounts were frozen. There was the hypothetical conversation that she might lose both houses that she'd put the money into. She didn't know what was going to happen with the prenup. And she then had to like really look at her life and think, what, what am I, I can't really make decisions till I know.
• 54:15
  Fun side, Nova New Yorker did a deep dive investigation into Bell Burden's finances and found that even though she said in the book that she never earned, she hadn't earned any money in a long time, in 2019 she actually earned $800,000. And she and her brother are both joint beneficiaries of a $45 million share in a trust fund that will pay out them after the death of their stepmother.
• 54:40
  So she's not in exactly the financial dire straits that she suggested she was. Oh, my God. But this Guardian journalist, Emma Brock, did say when you're that, when you've grown up exposed to that level of wealth, your idea of financial hardship might look and feel a bit different. Yeah.
• 54:59
  I do feel like the overarching takeaway for me is you need to, regardless of what your situation is, listening to this, firstly, I think there'll be a lot of people triggered by all of these stories we've shared around long-term ghosting because that in itself is absolutely makes me want to... Good.
• 55:18
  don't it's just true but i know it's why i'm not romantic anymore no no i know go with your eyes wide open it doesn't mean you can't enjoy romantic things but do not assume that this is you good and done no it's not so i think if you are listening to this firstly if you have had or know anyone that has experienced the long-term ghosting saga could you please reach out let us know we can keep it's totally anonymous
• 55:41
  Come in via DMs, email, whatever works. Would love to hear from you. Definitely we'll keep it anonymous. Secondly, have you listened to this episode and all of a sudden felt like, oh my goodness, yes, we're in a great situation and yes, I'm in a happy relationship, but I really need to reset the financial setup within the confines of what's happening right now. That's me.
• 56:04
  this is you, because I actually, I think that it might be kind of a part two, it might be really cool to, yes, work on these questions and come up with like almost a bit of a framework to get on the same financial page. But also we might be able to enlist some kind of
• 56:20
  financial relationship expert to help us to make sure that regardless of where you are, single, married, engaged, whatever, because it's never too late to reset. And I think that's the really important point to bring up here is that, yes, worst case scenario could happen to anybody. If it hasn't yet, you're still in a position to change it and make sure you're protecting yourself.
• 56:41
  So it's not, if you're feeling like Emma is in terms of I'm feeling a bit ashamed or tapped out financially and I probably need to really lean in here. There's so many parts to it, but it's not all hope is lost. You can totally reverse slash figure it out.
• 56:58
  That's such a good point, I think, to wrap up on, because I do think I've discussed this a lot in the book with regards to sexual shame. But shame is inherently silencing. When we feel ashamed about a part of our lives or a part of ourselves, we don't feel we can talk about that thing we're ashamed about. We think that we're therefore alone in whatever it is that we're going through, whatever issue that we're facing with regards to that kind of shaming topic. And that when Brené Brown talks about that kind of shame functioning as making us essentially feel like change isn't possible. When you feel ashamed about something, you don't think you can change that thing.
• 57:27
  And actually, it's such a liberating thing to be reminded of that no matter how old you are, no matter where you are in your life, no matter what decisions you have made up into this moment, here and now, you can change anything and everything. It's within your power. You can begin to rewrite your story today. And I think actually, that's a really important lesson to be reminded of, particularly when it comes to your finances, because
• 57:52
  It can be a thing, particularly when we talk a lot about, you know, compound interest and you, I feel like I'm hyper exposed to lots of conversations about how to be better in finances. And then I sometimes I find myself thinking, oh, God, I've left it too late. Like I've left it too late to become super savvy in my investment. That Chinese proverb that says the best day to start was yesterday. The second best day is today.
• 58:12
  And so many people say that about your finances because, I mean, yeah, the compounding interest thing, I think if you're listening to this and that is a weird, confusing word, but essentially it's the idea that, yeah, your money over time compounds. And I just think when we first started the curve, there was so many people that would come to our events and say exactly that. I feel like I've missed the boat. I'm too old. I've been X, Y, Z about my finances for too long.
• 58:38
  I think even rounding it back to your book, it's, you know, you were in a position where you felt completely disconnected to your body. You weren't having orgasms. I would have the exact same experience. You have to put the time, energy and love into changing or rewriting a story. But you can do that with any part of your life, whether it's sex, money, your relationship. And also just because you've opted out of finances within your relationship doesn't mean you always have to. You can actually just have an open conversation with your partner and say, hey, listen, I
• 59:05
  I'd love to be a bit more involved in this. And I feel a bit embarrassed that I've tapped out. Can we start having more conversations about it so that I feel a bit less dumb with money or whatever you want to say? I listened to a great podcast the other day and they were talking about the importance of having open discussions around finance within relationships. I'd love us to do that.
• 59:24
  Hook it to listening to this. Yeah, blame us. Blame us. One thing before we finish I think is worth saying, where you're listening to this podcast, it's really worth also looking up your de facto rights if you are not married. There's a lot of law that currently exists in many places where if you're married there is more rights for both parties in terms of a 50-50 split. But I think...
• 59:48
  It's really important, especially with so many people opting out of marriage now, and there's so many people that are in relationships that are choosing not to get married, but they're essentially married in terms of whether they've had kids or they don't want – they want to be child-free, but they're in long-term relationships. Understand what law you're governed by. Yeah. Look it up. Just see what is your position right now because –
• 1:00:08
  We know lots of people that you can speak to. If you do want to know how the prenup works and whatever country you're in, you may look online and look at the law and still not really understand what's going on. Please get in touch with us because you may not realize the situation that you're in. And finding that out is really important. Hopefully the law will change in the UK soon so that even if you're not married, if you've been together for a period of time, you can't go and walk out of your five-year relationship. We've had three kids and just leave them.
• 1:00:36
  financially but right now that's not the case so and then that also I think is is there's lots of countries where it's actually a little like it's not a great situation for most women so yeah I would just say just check wherever you are and what your situation is anyone that would like to reach out with your personal situation experience you want to share it I actually we haven't done this in a long time but we did something called curveballs a while ago and
• 1:01:02
  where people would share their stories, quite curly ones, around, you know, it could be anything from their relationship to something that happened with regards to an investment gone wrong, etc. But yeah, if you have a story or a situation you want to share, sometimes the idea of talking to other people outside of your immediate friends can feel safer, whether that's via writing or send a voice note to our hotline website.
• 1:01:24
  We would love to hear from you. And yeah, if you haven't read Pleasure, Emma's book, definitely do. It's such a brilliant range. Add it to the top of your reading list. Yeah. Australia and New Zealand. It comes out in September actually. Okay, brilliant. So you know what you could do? You can pre-order it. Okay. And then it'll arrive at your door sometime in September.
• 1:01:41
  And that's kind of budgeting. You're buying something in advance. But you are investing in your future self. You're investing in your future relationship to intimacy, to your body, to your sense of self. You're beginning to rewrite your story today. Emma, thank you so much. I loved talking about this. I think adjacent stories to the news that are culturally relevant but that are…
• 1:02:02
  so so financial in terms of like yes it's not what is a tech stock doing but it is so interesting to look at the financial angles when it comes to what is happening in the world so thank you for all the research you did for today's episode and very excited to do more yeah fun well i can't wait thank you so much for having me on
• 1:02:22
  Thank you so much for listening to The Curve Weekly. Make sure you hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening so you're always up to date with the latest finance and investing news. And feel free to leave a comment to let us know what you thought about this episode because we would love your feedback. We've got new Curve Weekly episodes for you to listen to every Monday. But until then, listen to Erasing the Curve. These are our in-depth podcast episodes where we chat about all things money. We're also around all week on socials if you're hungry for more Curve content and all the links are in this podcast show notes. We hope you have a great week and we'll catch you for the next episode of The Curve Weekly on Monday.
• 1:02:52
  you
• 1:03:00
  Okay, quickly, the Curve was created to empower and educate you about investing, but we are not financial advisors. Our platform exists for educational purposes only, and it doesn't provide personalized investing advice for your individual needs and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. And always remember to do your own research before making any investment or financial decision. We're here for any knowledge and support you need, but the final call is always yours. And thanks for being here. You got this. Yeah, we know you got this.