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Rethinking mental health beyond medication · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:08
  Welcome, our wonderful, wonderful audience.
• 0:12
  This is Dr.
• 0:13
  Peter Gregan with Ginger Bregan.
• 0:15
  Hi, folks.
• 0:16
  And this is the Bregen Hour.
• 0:19
  You can hear us across the platforms on the internet.
• 0:23
  We're a one-hour interview show.
• 0:26
  Today we are interviewing a delightful woman, a doctor, Terra Lynn Cell, S C L L PHD.
• 0:35
  She's a licensed psychotherapist.
• 0:38
  She specializes in understanding mental health when standard explanations and treatments fall short.
• 0:45
  Her work integrates psychology with principles from nutrition, functional medicine, examining brain health, sleep stress, and medication effects, how they shape emotional cognitive health.
• 0:59
  And my understanding is that she does do deprescribing.
• 1:03
  She is helping people come off the medications, which um most PhDs like herself are really nervous about doing.
• 1:37
  Yes.
• 1:44
  This is so exciting for me to be here.
• 1:47
  Um I want to make sure that everybody knows I'm not a prescriber.
• 1:51
  I'm not authorized to prescribe.
• 1:54
  But as you are saying, I think fear in the mental health world, mental health providers, PhDs, um, LPCs, social workers are so afraid to touch this with a 10-foot pole.
• 2:07
  And so it is it is left to other people to do.
• 2:12
  Um, and we're the ones that see the patients all the time, right?
• 2:17
  So I I feel like it is definitely a gap in service.
• 2:21
  And so hopefully, you know, I can help fill that gap a little bit.
• 2:25
  So you're really the next generation of professionals pushing that overton window a little further open to be able to uh fully offer services to patients.
• 2:40
  And I, you know, I think I've I never realized until I was thinking about your coming on the show today that Peter really is the father of deprescribing because he's been writing, he's written the only medical books about that, and he's been doing deprescribing for as long as he's been in practice, which is uh 60 years plus that's and he's been pushing on that window really hard, trying to get the work.
• 3:11
  I wish I knew, I wish I knew him 20 some odd years ago when I first started.
• 3:15
  I wish I knew of the work when I first started.
• 3:18
  Um, but having been introduced to it, um, I I've been working on this part of it for probably 10 years out of my 20 some year career in psychology.
• 3:31
  Um, but it wasn't until recently that I was introduced to some of the literature that Peter has written, and it just gave words to things that I had not been introduced to before.
• 3:45
  Um, like being spellbound, that was profound, like just to offer that word because I was also somebody who was largely spellbound myself by using psychiatric medication.
• 3:58
  So there's that piece of it too.
• 4:00
  So I think that was such a wonderful terminology to just, you know, when you finally put a word to something that you're like, that's it.
• 4:08
  That's that's what I'm thinking about.
• 4:10
  That's the word that describes exactly what I've been through as a person, and now what I see my clients going through, or particularly their loved ones, what they're noticing with the person who's been medicated is been profound.
• 4:24
  So that word alone, um, thank you for that.
• 4:27
  Thank you for that description.
• 4:29
  Thank you for that acknowledgement.
• 4:31
  Yes.
• 4:31
  Well, we're talking about folks here something that I noticed very early on, and that nobody was talking about around me, which is that uh people can't really well evaluate how they've been affected by a drug.
• 4:49
  It's the same thing that I'm going through now, is in August, I had a stroke that affected the ventral tegmentum of my thalamus, which is like a gateway to everything in the brain.
• 5:04
  And I've had to struggle with a lot of different effects from it.
• 5:07
  This is like a shotgun that went off.
• 5:09
  We couldn't, we we couldn't predict exactly what what the effects were going to be, and we discovered them over a period of time.
• 5:17
  Well, the biggest effect I noticed was that my clients who I would talk to on FaceTime and my wife whom I would see in my bed and then my breakfast table and bump into along the way all day long.
• 5:36
  We're having a bit of trouble recognizing my presence.
• 5:41
  I seem to be like behind a veil.
• 5:44
  We had trouble reading your face.
• 5:46
  Yeah.
• 5:46
  Because your face went very, very still.
• 5:49
  Yeah, and it's that it's that cognition piece.
• 5:52
  There, we just had a um an interview today on our show, and the guy said something very profound.
• 5:59
  I'm just gonna say it here because it said once a patient starts on medication.
• 6:02
  This is just this is a guy who is using medication, um, not a clinician or anything.
• 6:07
  Once a patient starts on medication, they are no longer able to monitor their own behavior.
• 6:12
  And um, yes, and that to me is exactly what you're talking about in yourself right now, too, right?
• 6:19
  Like when you're in your own body, you don't you don't understand your own deficits sometimes, right?
• 6:24
  You don't understand how you appear to other people, unless you suffer injuries within your brain, it's called an osognosia.
• 6:31
  That's the other term, yes, that I was introduced to by you, and I'm like, oh my gosh, that one is huge as well.
• 6:38
  Yes.
• 6:40
  Like a left-sided weakness, and you don't really recognize it because you have enough injury to your frontal frontal lobes as well as your arm areas, the brain that you don't really even see the the injury that you have.
• 6:56
  And Ginger was much more aware of my deficits in relating than I was.
• 7:03
  Peter, your articles talking about spellbinding and about analysis, especially, were incredibly helpful to me, incredibly helpful right after your stroke, because of all, I recognized it as an injury, and every time someone hears Peter has had a stroke, it's like that it they it's such a traumatic event that almost nothing else that a person survives has that effect that I've ever seen on individuals who hear about it.
• 7:36
  People just go, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
• 7:39
  And I deeply appreciate that, but it also makes me realize that so often we just suddenly think that that's an end game.
• 7:50
  And what I have found is there's so much room for healing.
• 7:54
  And the program that Peter was doing at the Aviv Clinic with hyperbaric oxygen therapy treatment made a huge difference too.
• 8:02
  Three months of that.
• 8:03
  Well, who knew that?
• 8:05
  I mean, I don't know how long ago you wrote those uh papers, Peter, but it was quite a while ago, right?
• 8:11
  The origination of those things.
• 8:13
  Who knew that the the application of that would be now for you, right?
• 8:18
  Personally, like who knew that this was like this is like a full circle moment um for you in so many ways, yes.
• 8:25
  In so many ways, right?
• 8:27
  So I yeah, anyway, I just want to acknowledge that just some of that terminology has been profound in my own practice and sharing that terminology with my own clients has also been profound for them to be able to put the right words to you know what they're going through as well.
• 8:43
  And like I said, as a uh I'll call myself, I hate this like a psychmed survivor story, but I'm that I was that person too.
• 8:51
  Um, so that was this, these are all full circle moments for me of still continued awakening um when it comes to what was and what is now for myself.
• 9:01
  So let me clarify a little bit for our audience.
• 9:04
  We both believe in you and I and getting things across simply directly.
• 9:10
  By meditation, what I'm talking about is a concept of medication spellbinding, where the taking of psychoactive substances makes it difficult for a person to assess whether they're doing better or worse uh to assess their place, their situation.
• 9:29
  And that, for example, in my legal work, as I'm going over patient records, often a really terrible sign is where the patient comes in after one week on Prozac and says, Doc, I've never felt better in my whole life.
• 9:46
  And the and the therapist says, Well, that's just great.
• 9:49
  There's still room for improvement.
• 9:50
  We can raise your dose.
• 9:52
  And in fact, the patient's on the verge of mania.
• 9:56
  Yes, why should a drug make us feel better than anyone?
• 10:00
  Time in our life.
• 10:02
  Um, it's a dysfunction, the drugs cause dysfunctions, and um one of the things the brain can do in the face of a dysfunction is imagine it's doing better than ever, which is the secret to drug addiction that people so even when you talk yeah, when you talk about spellbinding and um the the acknowledgement of like people with alcoholism or other drugs of abuse, right?
• 10:31
  Like that's that's been talked about a lot.
• 10:33
  Like you don't understand where you're at in this addiction process, right?
• 10:38
  Like the person who you're in denial, right?
• 10:40
  There's a lot of words that we use for people that have substance use disorders that we resonate with, but somehow people on psychiatric medications are left out of that conversation because this is like this is supposed to help you, whereas those things only hurt you, right?
• 10:55
  So there's only there's only one way to look at drugs and alcohol, and that's harmful.
• 10:59
  But the way we look at medication is helpful, right?
• 11:02
  Like, so we have to look at it in helpful terminology.
• 11:06
  And this this is why you guys need a YouTube channel because Ginger's over here, like making faces like she's gonna lose it, like yeah, you know, your audience needs to see this stuff that you're you're doing.
• 11:17
  So, but um, so this is these are those conversations that I think are largely important to have, not just with terminology, but with with concepts, right?
• 11:27
  So the idea that psychiatric medication, the thing that's supposed to help you hurts you, um, is something that most people aren't even willing to accept as a in conversation, um, you know, until it's too late often until it's too late for those people.
• 11:43
  So yeah, when they come off medication gradually with support from a therapist and maybe a family member, which is how I like to do it, like to take couple, have a couple and take one off and have the other.
• 11:58
  It's better together, we are better together.
• 12:02
  Um, even that concept, uh, you know, therapists and other uh mental health professionals at my level that don't prescribe.
• 12:10
  We help people get off drugs and alcohol and smoking and all these other things, but you know, but psychiatric medication, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 12:19
  We're not we're not supposed to do that, you know, conceptually.
• 12:22
  And it's like it's the same, it's it's not the same, but it's very similar, right?
• 12:27
  Like if somebody wants to stop doing something, we should be able to support them in what they want to do.
• 12:33
  That's and that's that's where I sit when it comes to psychiatric medication.
• 12:37
  If you don't want if if you know that it's hurting you and you want to stop doing the thing that's hurting you, you should have support, you should have the support that you need to get through that, and that's where we come in.
• 12:47
  So and it's the drug companies that have uh actually captured public media, um organized psychiatry and organized psychiatry together, and so forth and so forth.
• 13:01
  Organized psychology, I'm not gonna we can't leave us out.
• 13:05
  You're not leaving me out of this conversation because this conversation did not come easy for me.
• 13:10
  Um, in the early years of my career, I worked in uh prison systems.
• 13:14
  Um we were the right the right hand guy for psychiatry.
• 13:20
  That's what our role largely was.
• 13:22
  I mean, I I would when I was early in training, one of the first questions we always ask is are you prescribed anything or are you taking it as prescribed?
• 13:28
  That was the conversation, and then if there was a notable side effect that we because we were taught about side effects, if it was a notable side effect, it was you need to go back to your prescriber, go back to psychiatry and talk to them about changing something, right?
• 13:45
  We weren't allowed to say what to change, we just say changing something, like maybe you need a different different dose or a different medication.
• 13:52
  That was it, but we were the right hand person to psychiatry, and um, there was a lot of manipulative language about uh people taking meds, staying on meds, you know.
• 14:03
  At the time we we didn't call it manipulative language, that's come later, right?
• 14:08
  That's me saying like uh I had very manipulative language saying things like, Well, isn't it the same as a diabetic taking insulin?
• 14:18
  Like that's manipulation right there, it is not the same, those are not even the same concepts, those are all marketing concepts that were put together by the drug companies themselves, sure.
• 14:30
  And it's just and it's perpetuated within the mental health industry as a whole, those things are perpetuated.
• 14:37
  Um, or you know, would you rather be uh overweight or not depressed?
• 14:42
  And I'm like, that is so that's so dumb because if you are overweight, you're likely to be more depressed.
• 14:47
  So that's even a dumb thing.
• 14:49
  Like it doesn't those words fell out of my mouth, like those things came out easily because we were all saying those things to people to keep them compliant, right?
• 14:59
  To keep them so they're not aggressive, to keep them, you know, in all these places, and when I I worked at a special prison um here in my state, and it was it was a very unique prison.
• 15:12
  It was a place where the labeled mentally ill clients or uh inmates from regular department of corrections would come and we were like the tune-up shop.
• 15:22
  So they would come to us, and then we would do their mental health tune-ups, and then we'd send them back to general population wherever they were at, whether it was max security, minimum, medium security.
• 15:31
  Wow, they came to us.
• 15:32
  So you worked with all those levels, yes, oh my, all of them.
• 15:37
  The only the only ones I didn't work with were women, they're these were all men for me.
• 15:41
  Oh my, exactly.
• 15:44
  Uh, but anyway, but our the location that we had was heavily into medication, heavily.
• 15:50
  I would say 95% of the guys that came to us would leave on some psychiatric medication, um, easily.
• 16:00
  So, but I I remember having the awakening when I was there because I was doing some um searching around for research on nutrition topics, and there was one inmate in particular, we would have treatment team meetings and things like this, and uh, this inmate couldn't make it out of segregation because they were fighting all the time, so they're constantly in segregation for fighting, which isn't good for a person anyway.
• 16:24
  Um, and I kept thinking, why?
• 16:26
  Why are they fighting so much?
• 16:27
  Blah blah blah.
• 16:28
  I found some research on omega-3 fatty acids, and the research was very um applicable to where I was at in a prison.
• 16:36
  It was done in a jail, okay, and they gave the inmates the ones who are aggressive, omega-three fatty acids, and it reduced their aggression.
• 16:44
  And I thought, well, this seems like a simple something simple, like introducing some nutritional concept to reduce aggression in inmates.
• 16:54
  So here's me, you know, I'm a young clinician at this point, meaning early in my career.
• 16:58
  I was not young when I started early in my career.
• 17:01
  Um, and I bring in all the research articles to the stream a team meeting, and I'm like, I've I have the solution, I have it, you know, and I'm passing out all the our all these research articles to everybody there, and the psychiatrist looks at it, he picks it up, he looks at it, and he looks at me, and he goes, You are not a dietitian.
• 17:21
  Oh no, and the conversation stopped.
• 17:25
  That was it.
• 17:27
  I grabbed up all the research, tucked it away, sat there thinking, what the heck just happened?
• 17:33
  And then I went back to my office and I cried.
• 17:36
  And that was that was what happened.
• 17:38
  And I'm like, okay, private offices or ladies' rooms, right?
• 17:42
  No, we actually had private offices, so it was okay, right?
• 17:46
  But I thought to myself, what just happened?
• 17:49
  What there has to be more because in dietetics, when you're looking at um institutions like this, it was for people who had diabetes, right?
• 17:59
  Um, special dietary requirements, allergies, that kind of stuff.
• 18:03
  There was no special diet for mental health.
• 18:06
  There it was no special diet for this, and you know, I'm thinking they could have prescribed an omega-3 fatty acid to see how it helped, you know, because there's prescription available for that stuff, but the the closed-mindedness of the whole thing was astounding.
• 18:22
  Um, and it the whole conversation then after that just revolved around whether what other medications can we give this person to make them less aggressive.
• 18:30
  Now, again, at that time I wasn't thinking maybe the medication is making them aggressive.
• 18:34
  That wasn't a thought in my mind.
• 18:37
  It is now, it is definitely now.
• 18:40
  Like, what are they on that might be causing them to be aggressive, right?
• 18:44
  That would get you even more trouble.
• 18:46
  That's what I was gonna say.
• 18:47
  I would look at like I had a third eye, I'd probably get written up, like you know, all the things.
• 18:51
  So you know, that's why, you know, uh over time I couldn't stay there any longer because I knew there was something disconnected for me, um, working in an environment like that.
• 19:04
  Um, so yeah, that's how I kind of I I went on to be a clinical supervisor actually for the drug and alcohol treatment center that was through the department of corrections for a hot second and found myself really discombobulated there, and I was like, you know what, I just gotta go into private practice because this isn't gonna be it for me.
• 19:23
  So that's how I ended up, yeah.
• 19:25
  That's it was a leap of faith.
• 19:27
  When you leave happy, it's Friday, that's why I look happy.
• 19:32
  Like no mistake.
• 19:35
  Um, but when you get out of alignment with your profession with the way you're thinking, with um and what you're supposed to do, because that's the it, you know, it came to be that the way that they practice in certain institutions is all about liability, right?
• 19:54
  So it's not really about outcomes as much as it is about liability to do.
• 20:00
  Do the outcomes the right way.
• 20:01
  So even when I was trained as a therapist, it was very much manualized therapy.
• 20:06
  It was done, you have to do it exactly like this because otherwise the department of correction is going to get sued.
• 20:12
  And so if you get sued, you have to come in and be like, this is what we used.
• 20:16
  These are the interventions that we used for this client.
• 20:20
  So it definitely coming out of there was like, what am I doing?
• 20:26
  You know, like where the constraints came off of me too, you know.
• 20:30
  So, but yeah, so I was I was practicing in prison for about six years, I believe is what it what it ended up being.
• 20:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:38
  So yeah, that was that's the longest short of me.
• 20:41
  So during that time, though, I will say that I was medicated.
• 20:45
  Uh, I was partially medicated, and then I came off the medication, and then I had anxiety really bad, which I now know I'm thinking it was probably pro protracted withdrawal, at least bits and pieces of that.
• 20:58
  And um, that's that's the reason actually that is the pivotal moment that I left because I was having panic attacks and things like that so bad that I went to the doctor and the doctor prescribed me another medication after I'd already been off for a little bit.
• 21:11
  Yep.
• 21:12
  And I thought I'm not coming off of this anymore.
• 21:15
  And I quit my job instead.
• 21:17
  And on that note, we're going to take a break.
• 21:20
  Thank you.
• 21:20
  We'll be right back.
• 21:22
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• 21:23
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• 21:24
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• 23:51
  And we're back with Dr.
• 23:53
  Tara Land Cell, PHD, D prescriber, podcast Maven.
• 24:01
  And really a terrific human being.
• 24:04
  We're so happy to meet you today.
• 24:08
  Yeah.
• 24:08
  Like all of us.
• 24:10
  Welcome to the freedom movement.
• 24:12
  Yes.
• 24:13
  Exactly.
• 24:14
  It's exhausting being here, but it is.
• 24:16
  This is exhausting work.
• 24:18
  It is very challenging every single day.
• 24:21
  Yes.
• 24:21
  We talk about that a lot.
• 24:23
  The idea that uh we'll call it advocacy too.
• 24:26
  Like advocacy is hard, like to keep in the space over and over again is very difficult.
• 24:31
  And I can't even imagine you, Peter, how long you've been doing this and how much uh pain you've endured.
• 24:39
  70 years old.
• 24:40
  Yes.
• 24:41
  70 professional years from the point that he started working with mental patients as a college student.
• 24:48
  Yeah, that's a lot of backlash, I'm sure that you've gotten over the course of your career.
• 24:52
  Backlash seems like a minimized term for that.
• 24:55
  So yeah.
• 24:57
  He's a very determined and principled human being.
• 25:00
  And I think that that has been what carries him along.
• 25:04
  Is he's got such a strong moral code and principles.
• 25:09
  Um, I've learned a lot from him.
• 25:11
  We've been married 42 years.
• 25:13
  Nice.
• 25:14
  Yes.
• 25:15
  Seems like a miracle.
• 25:17
  Yeah, it is a miracle, honey.
• 25:19
  I get up in the morning and she's in my bed.
• 25:22
  It's like, how did I get to have the love of my life in my bed for all these years?
• 25:28
  For 42 years.
• 25:29
  Yeah, we've been.
• 25:30
  More than that, because you've been married for 42 years.
• 25:32
  So you've been together longer than that, right?
• 25:34
  Yeah, six months longer.
• 25:35
  So you know, that's fast.
• 25:38
  But hey, good.
• 25:39
  Well, we met for one weekend.
• 25:42
  Uh when he came to testify at uh a trial about lobotomizing a prison inmate in Detroit.
• 25:52
  And I we met as I was assigned to pick him up at the airport.
• 25:58
  So I picked him up at the airport, and we had an attraction there, as it turned out, the man was married.
• 26:04
  So that went nowhere, but we spent the weekend together where he had when he had to stay over uh visiting museums and other chaste behaviors.
• 26:15
  And uh then we totally lost track of each other after I took him on the in the airport on the airport Tuesday to go home.
• 26:23
  11 years later, I heard of him through who what turned out to be a mutual um acquaintance, a girlfriend.
• 26:34
  Well, she was your former, yeah.
• 26:36
  A former girlfriend of his who used who was a journalist and had turned to Peter a lot as an expert on some of these issues, and I said, Well, would you say hi to him?
• 26:49
  I thought maybe I could do some PR someday or something.
• 26:52
  I figured married with 10 kids, you know.
• 26:54
  What do they call that?
• 26:55
  Kismet, is that what they call that?
• 26:57
  Kiss well, it's fate, or it's it's for me, it's God's hand, really.
• 27:00
  It's like we were meant to be together.
• 27:02
  I feel like God put this man on my heart before I was born.
• 27:06
  It just took me a while to figure that out.
• 27:08
  And you are lucky.
• 27:10
  This is the key.
• 27:11
  This is the key to a happy marriage, guys.
• 27:13
  Like, this is the I always say this like be each other's biggest fan.
• 27:17
  Um, and I I can see that you are definitely his biggest fan, and it sounds like he's your business biggest fan too.
• 27:24
  Yeah, he is.
• 27:25
  I've I've learned so much about myself, and he's yes, he always holds me up and encourages me.
• 27:31
  And I never would have been doing this otherwise.
• 27:35
  Right, right.
• 27:36
  Exactly.
• 27:38
  Exactly.
• 27:38
  I I say that a lot.
• 27:40
  My husband, I'm people know him.
• 27:41
  I talk about him all the time on the air and everywhere, and he was part of my practice, and um, he is my biggest fan.
• 27:48
  Uh, he is with me everywhere I go, and the the best part of my day is when I see him cheering me on from the background, you know, like go go go get it, you know.
• 27:58
  So it's really nice.
• 27:59
  Wonderful.
• 27:59
  Yeah, it really makes all the difference.
• 28:02
  It does, it does.
• 28:03
  Well, I mean, relationships, period, when we're talking about mental health, like relationships are so important to mental health.
• 28:11
  And so when we go back to, I think you had mentioned before, you're like, you have a lot of media attention.
• 28:16
  A lot of the media attention that I got in the early phases was during um the pandemic times.
• 28:22
  And um to be very honest, I got very um disgusted by all the media attention back there.
• 28:32
  I am gonna say that freely because the media is so biased in what they want you to talk about.
• 28:38
  And so it was constant.
• 28:40
  Uh talk about how bad our mental health is, talk about like how bad, how bad, how bad, how bad all the time.
• 28:47
  And I finally said to my publicist, I said, Can you stop getting me those things?
• 28:52
  Because I don't want to talk about that anymore.
• 28:55
  I am done talking about the low-level stuff.
• 28:58
  Does that mean that it went away?
• 29:00
  No, but I felt like I was contributing to a message that we just couldn't get out of, right?
• 29:06
  Like things are so bad, they're bad, they're bad, they're bad.
• 29:09
  And um, so I think of brainwashing.
• 29:12
  Yeah.
• 29:12
  So I had to step away from it because once you do um one article about it, five other media art media outlets are gonna pick up on that article.
• 29:22
  And the next thing you know, like I'm smattered all over on different news outlets saying the same thing over and over and over again.
• 29:30
  And I got disgusted by it.
• 29:33
  So I said, let me step away from that particular conversation because I can't do it anymore.
• 29:39
  And then I started talking more about like what to do, like nutritionally and things like that.
• 29:44
  And I'll tell you what, the media coverage was a lot slower after that.
• 29:48
  Yeah.
• 29:48
  Um, when I when I refused to participate in the low level dragging it down, like it changed, like it was a little bit of crickets after that.
• 29:57
  And so I was like, well, okay, people like the
• 30:00
  Bad stuff.
• 30:00
  They don't like the good stuff.
• 30:02
  So you know, the industries like the bad stuff.
• 30:06
  That's that's the issue.
• 30:07
  The industries are there, they're controlled.
• 30:10
  They want they are told the market things, and they all depend the major media all depend on advertising, and the greatest source of advertising is um big pharma.
• 30:23
  Um and a lot of it's psych drugs, and then that kind of thing.
• 30:28
  So well, you see that all you got to do is watch the TV for a little bit, like even watch the Super Bowl, right?
• 30:34
  Like so the the amount of when you're when you're sitting watching a television show, you're like, Is are there any advertisements that are not big pharma?
• 30:43
  You know, it's just different meds.
• 30:45
  We see that all the time.
• 30:46
  Yeah, all the time.
• 30:47
  And I'm like, wow, I remember when we used to advertise other things, and now I can't even remember the things that were advertised because it's all just cars, big pharma funded.
• 30:55
  Cars, butter, you know, ours, yeah.
• 30:57
  Who knows?
• 30:58
  Cars and butter.
• 30:58
  Yeah, I like that.
• 30:59
  That's funny.
• 31:00
  Cars and butter, you're right.
• 31:01
  Sometimes a luxury vodka or something.
• 31:06
  Bring it, bring that stuff up.
• 31:11
  Not much.
• 31:13
  No, I have not.
• 31:14
  I've been on uh your tango.
• 31:16
  I don't know if you know much about your tango, but they're kind of a love site, but I I haven't done a lot of that.
• 31:22
  No, I work with a lot of couples though.
• 31:25
  Um, and that's important work, I feel that I do, but I don't really talk in the media about it now, because nobody wants that from me.
• 31:32
  I talk about what they want from me, right?
• 31:34
  Nobody wants love, they'll they'll maybe uh five ways to ensure that you have a uh divorce.
• 31:42
  Oh no, that that's what they would want to listen to, right?
• 31:45
  Not five ways to keep your marriage strong.
• 31:48
  Yeah, it's all propagandized that this love is propagandized out of sight.
• 31:52
  Love has been so denigrated that uh you mention love and people think you're talking about oh, I don't know, unicorns fantasies, you know.
• 32:03
  Well, okay.
• 32:03
  I I'm gonna bring in a part of this conversation because there are so many men and women, but mostly women that are medicated that they can't even get in touch with love anymore because they can't get in touch with um connecting to themselves or to their partner.
• 32:20
  Um, so I think you know, I I'm sure there is research on here about how many um divorces there are with people who are on even just your typical antidepressants, it's gotta be high if you if you were to to pull that information as as the divorce rate skyrockets, I bet you I bet you it might go in line with uh the increasing antidepressant prescription rates too, because I that's that almost ruined my marriage, is me being on an antidepressant for six years, so that I I couldn't look at my husband like he loved me and he didn't he didn't change.
• 32:57
  I was the one who was just miserable, you know.
• 33:00
  So and and add to that, you know, the changes that women go through with paramenopause and menopause, their hormones crashing.
• 33:09
  Well, I mean, it's interesting now about the black box warnings that have been lifted for home hormone replacement therapy for women because if you've looked at the um statistics about uh when did it when was it pulled from the market?
• 33:22
  The late 90s, I think something like that.
• 33:24
  Mid 90s, yes.
• 33:25
  But yeah, so HRT went down to zero, like prescribing HRT was practically zero, right?
• 33:32
  Then psychiatric medication went and increased any psychic end.
• 33:38
  I'm sure it was that was the uh no doubt the uh studies that were done on uh hormones and their so-called damaging effects.
• 33:49
  Uh there were several of the named clinicians who were senior in those studies, were also consulting with Eli Lilly.
• 33:58
  I looked it up at the time, and I believe this.
• 34:03
  And um there's nothing I don't believe anymore, you know.
• 34:06
  I'm a I'm a tried and true conspiracy theorist who's not a conspiracy theorist.
• 34:10
  The same with cigarettes, actually, because there was I saw before it was unavailable um research that was done, marketing research that was done on disposable income, and there is little disposable income in families, but a piece of it was going towards cigarettes, and then you saw the cigarette.
• 34:32
  Uh, not that it was inappropriate, people shouldn't be smoking.
• 34:35
  I smoked for 30 years.
• 34:38
  I miss it, but I'm glad I'm not sure.
• 34:41
  That's a different podcast.
• 34:44
  That's a different show.
• 34:45
  Yeah, that's a different show.
• 34:47
  But um, but the the smoking was targeted, the cigarettes were targeted in part because psychiatric drugs replaced them, especially SSRIs, which was coming in in the late 80s.
• 35:02
  Uh and the marketing to them, Peter wrote in Toxic Psychiatry, his first popular book about the whole industry.
• 35:10
  He wrote about the huge circus-like sales, sales what were they?
• 35:19
  They were the you know, the the attachments that sell things next to the convention that's going on, supposedly giving you the latest uh scientific information and all those industry exhibits and so forth.
• 35:33
  Um and it was a true circus, even then in the late 80s, when he went and toured that and then wrote about it.
• 35:43
  Yeah, at an American psychiatric association meeting.
• 35:47
  Have you seen there's there's a graphic, and I've shared this graphic before.
• 35:51
  Um, I'll do the best that I can to describe it.
• 35:54
  Umce they stopped the HRT, the um rates of prescribing antidepressants, benzodiazepines, and sleep aids in women like went up like a mountain.
• 36:04
  Okay, so it just just blew up like a mountain.
• 36:07
  Then if you pull the uh suicide rates of women from that time period, guess what that looks like?
• 36:14
  The same mountain.
• 36:15
  So you can practically put those two images together, and it looks exactly the same.
• 36:21
  And I'm like, doesn't this scare anybody?
• 36:24
  Doesn't this like put it together?
• 36:26
  And so what do you get from people?
• 36:29
  Well, you know, correlation doesn't equal causation, right?
• 36:33
  That's what that's the argument that everybody has, you know.
• 36:36
  And I'm like, well, but when two things are similarly related, you can look at that correlation as if it can be clinically relevant.
• 36:45
  Um, so I'm so tired of the dismissal with correlation doesn't equal causation because it it happens all the time.
• 36:51
  People say that to dismiss anything that is related negatively to uh psychiatric medication.
• 36:58
  So I'm like, but that that looks very suspicious to me, you know.
• 37:02
  When you put them back to back and they're like, wow, that looks the same.
• 37:06
  There's there's some it makes you critically think and go, hmm, this is weird.
• 37:11
  I think of course you're critically thinking, and that's what really that's one of the purposes is uh critically thinking citizens is not the most popular position to be in these days.
• 37:23
  We're supposed to salute and do what we're told.
• 37:26
  You know what's interesting is so I graduated my bachelor's degree back in 1991, and um I had to take a class called critical thinking.
• 37:38
  That was a c that was a whole class that was required, and I'm like, all right, that's fine.
• 37:42
  Do you know those classes are not required anymore?
• 37:45
  And I'm like, and we also had to take a philosophy class, and I'm like, that uh combined with critical thinking was very interesting at the time.
• 37:53
  It was just like you know, I have to check these off my transcript boxes, right?
• 37:57
  Right, but now I'm like, please can we bring some of that back because it just doesn't exist?
• 38:02
  Well, you see, it makes you a more dangerous woman, and and a doctor.
• 38:09
  Yes, there's got to be a trifecta somewhere.
• 38:11
  There's gonna be a third.
• 38:12
  I don't know what that's gonna be, but yes, you're right.
• 38:14
  I can be looked at, and people do look at me that way, they'll say that on social media.
• 38:18
  You're dangerous, you're gonna you're gonna kill people, right?
• 38:22
  With this, I'm so sorry.
• 38:25
  Oh no, don't be sorry, it's fine.
• 38:26
  It's water off a duck's back at this point, right?
• 38:28
  You have to have a thick skin, right, Peter?
• 38:30
  You have to have a thick skin.
• 38:32
  By the way, I want you to know that that is very often planned very deeply.
• 38:36
  That kind of response, that's not just some individual human being out in some city somewhere reading what you had to say occasionally, but a lot of it is deliberate, and it's um it comes from censors themselves, especially in COVID, tens of thousands of censorship individuals who had come out of the communications departments of universities, they went into the censorship business, and the federal government at the time hired tens of thousands of them and skent sent them around.
• 39:13
  They worked for big tech, they worked for uh Facebook for YouTube, all these other things, or they worked in higher administrative federal administrative positions pressuring those big tech fields.
• 39:26
  We were on YouTube, we had over 40.
• 39:28
  Dr.
• 39:28
  Briggan had over 40,000 followers, and he was being attacked both for his statements about COVID, and then in addition to that, for his basic commentaries on psychiatric drugs and the the hazards of psychiatry, and with with some of his movies and videos being taken down.
• 39:50
  So that was it for us.
• 39:53
  We uh were we were censored off of YouTube.
• 39:57
  Oh, I I believe what I
• 40:00
  I announced our book, COVID 19 in the Global Predators in a column on YouTube.
• 40:06
  We were immediately taken down for life.
• 40:08
  In a video, yeah.
• 40:10
  COVID was a weird time.
• 40:11
  That uh that was a bizarre time.
• 40:14
  Well, again, same thing.
• 40:16
  The only thing they wanted me to talk about was one narrative around it, right?
• 40:20
  That was it.
• 40:21
  And anytime I wanted to say anything else about it, like nobody wanted that narrative.
• 40:25
  They they tell people when you think about the media, and they reach out to you or reach out to your PR person, they tell the PR person exactly what they want to hear from you.
• 40:34
  Yeah, that's what they do.
• 40:36
  They say, I want a commentary on this thing with this angle.
• 40:41
  And that's it.
• 40:42
  That's it.
• 40:43
  They don't want your thoughts.
• 40:45
  They want they want their thoughts and they want it backed by somebody with a PhD or MD.
• 40:50
  Right.
• 40:51
  We've got less than a minute left.
• 40:53
  We're talking with Dr.
• 40:55
  Terylin Sell, and who's a psychologist and a terrific human being.
• 41:01
  Um, we this is the break an hour with Dr.
• 41:04
  Peter Bregan and Ginger Bregan.
• 41:06
  We air live on Saturdays and Sundays at 4 p.m.
• 41:11
  on America Outloud.news.
• 41:14
  You can go there, listen to their live feed, and you'll hear us at 4 p.m.
• 41:18
  on Saturday, and then repeat it again, 4 p.m.
• 41:21
  on Sunday.
• 41:22
  Then it's released by podcast as podcast to all the podcast platforms.
• 41:28
  And if you simply Google break an hour or go to your favorite podcast platform and search break an hour or the break an hour.
• 41:42
  Um YouTube, like no, not YouTube, Spotify and various others, then you'll find us there on all of them.
• 41:49
  You can also find us for a long time on Podbean.com.
• 41:53
  Particularly Podbean.
• 41:54
  Yes.
• 41:55
  And now we're out of it.
• 41:56
  They have everything I've done.
• 41:57
  Yes, they do.
• 41:58
  Now we're out of time.
• 41:59
  We'll be right back.
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• 44:50
  We're back.
• 44:52
  This is a fun interview.
• 44:55
  Thank you.
• 44:55
  Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
• 44:57
  I'm glad.
• 44:58
  As I started to recover from uh my uh stroke, one of the benefits was that Ginger became more and more active on the radio.
• 45:10
  And um, they do a great job, honey.
• 45:12
  Thanks.
• 45:13
  Thanks.
• 45:14
  That means a lot.
• 45:15
  I like that.
• 45:16
  I like having fun interviews.
• 45:17
  They're they're they bring a little bit of uh levity to some of these conversations because they're hard conversations.
• 45:23
  They are conversations, yeah.
• 45:26
  And uh so Jen, my my podcast co-host for the Gaslet Truth Podcast, we we were podcasting today too.
• 45:31
  And at the end, we said, you know, it is tiring being an advocate.
• 45:35
  It is so exhausting.
• 45:36
  And I said, because our email inboxes are filled with people that are just suffering, yeah, they're desperate and they are suffering, and they're sharing their stories.
• 45:48
  I've I find it fascinating that they share their stories to people they don't even know, but they think they know us, right?
• 45:55
  Like, and they're sharing them in like novels on their email.
• 45:59
  And I said to Jen, I said, I don't know how much more trauma I can endure.
• 46:03
  Like, because it's like, you know, they're talking about their trauma stories and all the trauma in the psychmed industry and things like that.
• 46:11
  And it you witness a lot.
• 46:12
  Yes, you witness it.
• 46:13
  It's a third flow, other to other people.
• 46:16
  Absolutely.
• 46:17
  Yes, absolutely.
• 46:18
  And it is traumatic, yes.
• 46:20
  And so we were talking today about how important it is to, you know, have some boundaries and set some more self-care and all of those things, but yet advoc advocacy still needs to happen, but it is it's very exhausting and it's traumatic for the advocates in the space.
• 46:37
  So if anyone is listening and they're advocates in this space, like I I see you and I hear you, and I see that for you too, Peter.
• 46:43
  So, and and you too, Ginger.
• 46:45
  So it's very exhausting.
• 46:47
  So thank you for continuing all these years doing it.
• 46:50
  Like, I'll tell you one of the secrets, and it took me a while to learn this because I thought you had to have an impact.
• 46:57
  And Peter's had huge impact, but on the other hand, I'm not everything changed.
• 47:04
  You know, you've still got big pharma out there, and you tell tell me your philosophy on this because it's really sustained me, and it certainly sustained you 70 years.
• 47:16
  Well, I think I began to realize fairly quickly that I could not predict my effects as a reformer, as a reformer.
• 47:27
  Um I settled for doing what I thought was right, not with having the effect I wanted to.
• 47:35
  And I think in general, that's stood me in good stead.
• 47:41
  As I've grown older, I've kind of honed that down to a lot finer thought, which is when I meet God, and um he's deciding which road I'll continue on.
• 47:57
  I think he's going to be more interested in how I treated my loved ones and how much I accomplished in the world.
• 48:07
  And I think that and I'd like to think that we'll ultimately be judged by how much love we brought into the world in whatever area we were in.
• 48:18
  Which I think includes advocacy, advocacy can be very thankful, thankless in some surface ways, but it is an act of love toward humankind and towards our fellow humans, individuals, groups.
• 48:37
  Um that I think is part of the picture.
• 48:43
  It it reminds me um about a year ago.
• 48:46
  I don't know if you know who uh Dr.
• 48:47
  Hyla Cass is.
• 48:48
  I don't know if you've heard of Hyla Cass at all.
• 48:50
  Um, she's she's kind of well known in the addiction space, and she does a lot of nutrition addiction, whatever.
• 48:56
  To me, she's she's like a big name to know.
• 48:59
  I ran into her at a conference about a year ago, and I said, Oh my gosh, like you know, bangirl again, right?
• 49:05
  And I said, All these years, I said, I said, I don't believe that you got the recognition that you deserved in in all these years because she was a big change maker.
• 49:15
  And uh she looked at me like I was ridiculous, and she goes, That's not what it was about.
• 49:21
  And I went, oh you're right.
• 49:26
  That's not what it's about.
• 49:27
  It was about serving people.
• 49:29
  That was her whole thing.
• 49:30
  And here I am like, you didn't get the recognition that you needed and you deserved, and all this stuff.
• 49:34
  And she's like, that was never the point.
• 49:36
  I was like, wow, that literally took me off my feet and gave me a little bit of an attitude adjustment right then and there, uh, to be like, okay, that this is not what this is about, everybody.
• 49:47
  This is this is about um hopefully exerting change in the in the name of care, right?
• 49:53
  Still in the name of care, not about you know how big a person is gonna get in this space, right?
• 50:00
  So I think as long as we stay there.
• 50:03
  I think that's the healthiest viewpoint to have.
• 50:06
  I think the anger issue relates closely to this.
• 50:09
  The more you're you're frustrated for not getting what you want out of being a reformer.
• 50:16
  The more angry you get, the more anger you get, the more you spread bad vibes in the world.
• 50:23
  And the more you corrupt your own spiritual state.
• 50:26
  And early on, my early years.
• 50:36
  I ignored them or whatever else.
• 50:39
  Not to mention what people were doing to other people.
• 50:41
  And what the thank you.
• 50:42
  That's right.
• 50:43
  Like lobotomizing people and so forth.
• 50:45
  Children.
• 50:46
  Yeah.
• 50:47
  Yeah.
• 50:47
  Little toddlers.
• 50:49
  And um I tried to give up my anger to God.
• 50:52
  I said to God, listen, I can't continue being a healthy reformer if I'm angry about everything I'm looking at, and everything that people try to do with me.
• 51:02
  But other also what they're doing, other people.
• 51:06
  And if you want me to continue, please maybe get somebody else to do the angry part because it's not what I want to do.
• 51:15
  And that's been my view ever since.
• 51:17
  God, if you if you need somebody to be angry, get somebody else because it's not good for me.
• 51:22
  It's not gonna be me either.
• 51:23
  I'm I'm done with being angry.
• 51:26
  Don't get your anger on me.
• 51:28
  So yes.
• 51:29
  Yeah.
• 51:30
  Yes.
• 51:31
  It you know, it's interesting because like I don't know who gets the bigger voice.
• 51:35
  I don't know, I don't know why.
• 51:37
  Um some people are chosen and other people aren't.
• 51:41
  Um I can't, I can't make sense of that.
• 51:44
  And people do tell me they're like, you know, you have a bigger voice than you think.
• 51:48
  And I'm like, I do.
• 51:49
  And they're yes, you have a much bigger voice than what you think.
• 51:53
  And again, like Hyla Cass, my goal was never to have a big voice.
• 51:57
  My voice was to have a voice that was heard.
• 52:00
  The two things aren't always the same, right?
• 52:03
  I if you want to hear me, that doesn't mean I need to be screaming at you.
• 52:06
  I need to have a voice that people want to listen to and be heard.
• 52:10
  So that's that's what I'm after.
• 52:13
  I think sometimes the bigger voices are the ones that are picked because they're going to harm industry the least.
• 52:21
  They get the mic drop moment right there, ginger.
• 52:28
  We're dropping mics over here.
• 52:29
  And then there's the, you know, and then there's the voices that are so dangerous to the status quo of uh the industries, the the combined industries that are called health care and include includes insurance, includes the hospitals, the corporations, the doctors, APA, American psych and American psychology.
• 52:56
  Don't start on that.
• 52:57
  All big pharma, but all of that, and you know, a voice like Dr.
• 53:04
  Bregan's became so dangerous that in the 90s, he just stopped getting invitations altogether to the with a few exceptions through up until 2019.
• 53:18
  But and then since then, since then we've got to tell you though, Peter, you're not missing out on a lot.
• 53:26
  You're definitely not missing out on a lot.
• 53:29
  You need to be invited to the right tables.
• 53:31
  That's the that's the whole deal, being invited to the right table.
• 53:34
  But I've had I've had these conversations with my husband too, and you know, we've said before the last like five years, really.
• 53:42
  Um, we'd say things like, I don't know that we're gonna see the change in my lifetime that I'm hoping for, but I'm seeing glimmers of hope.
• 53:51
  I really am.
• 53:52
  Am I seeing it on the level of big pharma?
• 53:55
  Not really.
• 53:56
  Um, I'm seeing it on a consumer level, though.
• 53:59
  I really am, because I the more the more people are injured and suffering, the bigger that group is demanding change, at least for themselves.
• 54:09
  Um, so I think we're we're seeing it there, whereas but five years ago I wasn't even hearing the conversations, right?
• 54:16
  And we're seeing that now you're right.
• 54:18
  Yes, now I'm hearing the conversations and I'm seeing it, and social media is kind of blowing up on that side, you know, with online Facebook support groups and things like which I've never seen before.
• 54:30
  Yeah.
• 54:31
  So I I like I said, I don't know that the change is going to be from the top.
• 54:34
  I think it's going to be from consumerism up instead of the other way down.
• 54:38
  Um, but I do think that we are finally seeing some of that in our lifetime.
• 54:43
  So maybe not to the level that we want or need, but it's it's definitely happening.
• 54:49
  And thank you so much for your voice in that change.
• 54:52
  Oh no, I mean, you're you guys are the OG over here, so you're just kind of passing down the voice to me.
• 54:58
  So I I'm appreciative of the well, they're the new generation, my dear.
• 55:04
  That's right.
• 55:04
  That's right.
• 55:05
  Along with your colleagues in the in the same arena.
• 55:08
  Yes, absolutely.
• 55:10
  It's it's been I'd like to say it's been fun, but it hasn't been fun being an advocate so much.
• 55:16
  This has been fun, but that part not always fun.
• 55:19
  So all right.
• 55:21
  This is the break an hour with Dr.
• 55:23
  Peter Bregan, psychiatrist and his wife, Ginger Bragan.
• 55:30
  And we have just talked with Dr.
• 55:32
  Terry Lynn Cell, PHD.
• 55:35
  Her name is spelled Dr.
• 55:37
  Terry Lynn, T-E-R-A-L-Y-N.
• 55:41
  And if you Google Dr.
• 55:42
  Terra Lynn, you should find everything you need.
• 55:45
  She does a podcast, the gaslit truth.
• 55:50
  Gaslit Truth Podcast, Gaslit Truth Podcast.
• 55:54
  And I'm sure I'll be appearing on yes, Peter will be not too far in front of it.
• 55:58
  Peter will be a guest on that in the near future.
• 56:02
  And uh we air live Sundays, Saturdays, and Sundays at 4 p.m.
• 56:08
  on American Outloud dot news, and then we go to podcast.
• 56:13
  Thank you for very much to our wonderful audience for coming again and listening to us, and we will see you again next week.
• 56:22
  And I have an additional thought.
• 56:24
  If you want to meet us personally, come to the America Out Loud Conference in uh Nashville, Nashville, Tennessee.
• 56:36
  July of 2026.
• 56:39
  That's this year, folks.
• 56:40
  And if you go to America Outloud.news, click on Nashville, you'll see all the details.
• 56:46
  Peter's going to be presenting.
• 56:48
  We're going to be there for three days.
• 56:50
  I can't believe I'm saying that.
• 56:52
  And we are out of time.
• 56:55
  Thank you, everyone.
• 56:56
  Bye-bye.